Jussi Pylkkänen

You also know how to keep the pace of an auction going, which is incredibly important. I mean, if something fails, you move on, and you move on with the same pace as you would as if it had sold for a world record price. So sort of pace, poise and professional knowledge of the market is absolutely quintessentially my view.

Join us as UC shares his plans for his new business, his thoughts on what's next for the art market and stories from his time auctioneering and negotiating deals for some of the biggest record breaking sales. This episode is brought to you by David's Werner. They also have a podcast dialogues. after this episode. Now it's a few months that you're like a free man out of Christie's after what was 40 years. What's it feel like? Jussi Pylkkänen: It's fantastic. I've enjoyed it hugely.

I got a number of people writing to me after I left with all sorts of thoughts for the future recommendations. And no, it's a, Spiritually, it's wonderful just to be able to work on things that you personally find interesting and important, um, both privately and professionally. So it's a great break. I'm enjoying it already. So projects like individual artworks, curating shows, building collections, working on your golf game. Which is it now?

I think Jussi Pylkkänen: the one that I might not do is the golf game, um, but the others, all of the above. Um, I spent a good deal of time talking to collectors that are wanting to buy, I'll be buying over the next couple of days here at Christie's and Sotheby's in London. Uh, looking forward to the New York auctions. Um, I've also been talking to museums who want to loan objects for future shows.

There's the wonderful Monet show of London at the Courtauld coming up at the end of the year and many other major exhibitions that I want to make sure that collectors lend pictures to. I think that's a responsibility for anybody that's out in the art market advising major collectors. And then, of course, working with people that are putting together major collections at the top of the art market, which has been my life for the past 30 odd years.

And obviously there are certain individuals I've worked with for some time who are looking to continue to collect major works privately in particular. One of the reasons that I've left Christie's really is to look after major collectors who've got the appetite both to buy major works and to lend major works. Those are two of the critical questions that I ask individuals that want to work with me.

We're going to do some episodes about art advisory, but sometimes I think, in fact, the ailment you didn't speak about, which is the hardest ailment, which is how to sell art. Because in general, buying art is way easier than selling art. Would you comment on that? And are you thinking that I would take that as an element of what you're helping collectors do using your inside knowledge of how the other side functions?

Jussi Pylkkänen: Yes, I mean, advising people to sell privately or at auction is a key part of that, but also the whole process of looking at major collections and saying, look, what direction are you going in? Uh, which objects that you bought early on should you be selling now in order to improve the collection you have? I think there are a lot of passive owners who should really be transformed into transactors to, if you like, finesse the collections that they have.

And that's an important thing to do. It's a difficult thing to do sometimes because the objects that collectors have bought in their early years are often things that they're closest to, but if the market's right to put those onto the open market or to sell them privately, I think it's good practice. And so if you like tidying up major collections is very much part of what I want to do.

I think often with advisors, one realizes after a while, I'm sure even as you worked in a big environment with many specialists, that there's a certain personality type that you connect with? Um, I know I have one. Do you have something that you would sort of identify I'm really good with and fill in the blank of that?

Jussi Pylkkänen: In terms of people that I really feel had a great eye, who I've worked with and continue to work with, the likes of Loic Gouzer, Uh, the likes of Frank Giroux, the likes of Brett Gorvey. But I'm saying, yes, those advisors are great because they have beliefs and they're willing to be the only one out there and the first one out there. Which is how I am. And then with a client, I mean, I'm not good with shoppers who feel like they need to buy something every week.

I deal with a certain kind of history. I'm good with people who know nothing. I'm good with people who know a lot. Most of the people are in between. Is there like a category of collector that you feel you sort of had that sort of chemical fit with the Jussi Pylkkänen: best? Yes, it's people that are in the market for the long term, people that actually want to buy major works of art for themselves.

Obviously, if you buy the very best, the likelihood is that those are the pictures they're going to appreciate the most. And that's the direction I've gone in. Um, one of the reasons why I was so keen to stay at Christie's for such a long time is the last. 10 to 15 years has really been about the masterpieces market. Um, with the help of Brett and Loic in particular, we went to that market in 2014, I think the first major event for us was the selling of the Bacon Triptych.

And after that, we had a sequence of sales where we were looking for very major works of art at 50 million plus. And we sold a lot of them in that period. And it created a marketplace for us to work in, which was the greatest collectors that owned the objects, and the new collectors that wanted to buy them. And that's very, very much where I want to stay.

I'm always curious how much of your time, both privately now and certainly Christie's was spent talking about the art and you talk about masterpieces and how much has been talking about the money. Jussi Pylkkänen: I think when I was Christie's, a lot of my time was spent talking about the money, uh, not just in terms of the value of objects, but the risks, the guarantee numbers, and what position we wanted to take with regard to a deal. Now that I'm free of that, it's more about the art.

And the art for me is vital. So paying the right price for a major work of art is fine. Um, and that's what it's about trying to identify opportunities to. Find rare objects that simply are all in museums, with the exception of the odd piece that you chase. That's when you pay an exceptional price. But, um, also being reasonable about the acquisition number is important to every collector. Um, but for me, it's not the essence of what I'll be doing.

The essence of what I'll be doing is advising people to buy nine out of tens. And there aren't many of them. So for example, in this series of sales, there are relatively few, but those that are are worth having a go at. Well, I often say to my clients, let's start with, do you love it? And then we can talk about the money because it's a waste of time to talk about the money. If it's not good Jussi Pylkkänen: enough, that's my song. And that's the first point. Do you like the object?

Is it something that you want to own? And then let's talk about how much it might cost you to acquire it. And looking back years later, do you go? Oops, maybe, you know, I told him to stop at X million and now it's worth 10 X. And you think maybe I never thought that that price as far would get as high as they are. Yes, Jussi Pylkkänen: I think the art market has run away in certain areas, and I'm fortunate and happy that people didn't go that far.

There are a few exceptions where people went beyond, and, um, I don't think if those objects came back on the market now that they would achieve those prices. Obviously, with the Russians dropping out of the market, with the Asians being more quiet last year, there are certain markets that did drop, and quite considerably. Um, but that does not mean that they won't come back. But similarly, there are markets historically that have been too hot.

Um, and I've witnessed that and hopefully the people that I've advised didn't get caught in the. How about your greatest triumphs and failures of telling someone to keep going or some time to stop anything specific comes to mind?

Jussi Pylkkänen: So on Go, uh, way back when I was looking after German sales at Christie's in the 90s, um, I was completely convinced that Jawlensky's market was too low, and we had a picture of three to four hundred thousand of Helene Jawlensky, and a very nice jewellery dealer who I'd known for years asked me, you know, what would you recommend? And I recommended that he should buy this picture, and he bid to nine hundred thousand, three times the estimate or so. Which is brave.

Three years later, I called him, I said, the Jawlensky market is now hot, and he sold it for 3. 2 million. So effectively ten times the original estimate that he bid for it, only four or five years before. So that was an example of, maybe, the marketing power of the auction houses, where when you commit to a Surrealist sale, or a German sale, or an Italian sale, you can create interest. But I think it was all credible, because I think Jawlensky is a very important artist.

Um, that having been said, now the Russians are not in the market, and Jablonsky, a great Russian painter from their perspective, prices are quite suppressed, so it'll be interesting to see how the Jablonsky does tomorrow night at Christie's, a great painting as well, same, uh, league of artwork. And any bandwagons you got on and you went, oops, maybe, uh, didn't get that one quite right, either artistically or financially?

Jussi Pylkkänen: Um, funnily enough, our judgments in terms of guarantees at Christie's have been pretty spot on, particularly over the last five years. I've seen other houses have problems. Um, and obviously we've been in the game for those deals. That's in my previous life, working as a sort of a judge of value.

I think if you look at the contemporary market, and I was involved hugely in that from the last 20 years at Christie's, you know, there are artists that have gone out of favour, whose markets have dropped, that at one moment were incredibly strong. Um, so there are a certain number of works by young artists early on in their careers that I think the prices have definitely, uh, more than halved.

And it's just a question of whether, with time, their careers will flourish and prosper because generally early works by artists tend to come back. You know, if it's early Chagall or it's early Kandinsky or whatever, their markets somehow come back.

And that must be the case also for painters, you know, such as Freud, Bacon, we've seen it already, but even the younger artists today, their early works that may now not seem to be at the same level as they were when they were first offered on the auction market will come back. As a long term private advisor versus a newbie, clients love it when you tell them, you were right, I was wrong, should have bought more of those. They love it when you say, like, three Kusamas was enough.

And it's like, well, they thought that we should buy ten. I don't know, three is plenty. You go back and say, yeah, you were right. It makes them feel really good. So admitting that, like, they were smarter than you, it's like, I know they're not listening. So it's a good strategy Jussi Pylkkänen: sometimes. Yeah, but you go back to the great dealers as well.

You look at somebody like Bruno Bischofberger, one of the masters, you know, and you look at his view of Warhol and Basquiat back in the day, I mean, he was a complete precursor. Nobody would have believed, you know, how the markets Basquiat, would become so central to, you know, the cultural development of the 21st century and people's belief in that young man.

And similarly, you look at Bill Aquavella when he did the Matisse deal back in the day, he took an enormous position way before the auction houses did. You know, with a great group of PM and T's gallery pieces of Nero's Matisse's and so forth, which, um, you know, nobody in the broader market would have committed to. So those judgments can also apply to dealers when you say to them, you know what? Right. Cool. And of course there are others that will say, I knew the market was going to develop.

I wish I had. You hear a lot of I wish I had, particularly in my place working at Christie's as the president.

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I think being a great expert, which I ran the Impressions department after all for over a decade at Christie's, is part of the secret if you know how good the artwork is. You know, when to pause, if you know, who's bidding, because they're people that have collected with you for many years, you also know when to pause. You also know how to keep the pace of an auction going, which is incredibly important.

I mean, if something fails, you move on and you move on with the same pace as you would, as if it had sold for a world record price. So sort of pace, poise, and professional knowledge of the market is absolutely quintessentially my view. So when something buys in, you just like, it's out of your brain, you're able to disengage from, I know that consigner, it's a great, all that, you just like, turn the page. Jussi Pylkkänen: A hundred percent.

I think that's probably the Finnish blood in me, sissle, or just, uh, how would I put it, the ability to move on and do the right thing at the next step. Interestingly, not a lot of people recognize this, but the very next lot after Leonardo da Vinci that made 450 million dollars was a Basquiat at 25 million dollars, which was guaranteed by the house. and fail to sell.

Most of us, when consigning, say we don't want to be the one after the biggest lot, that all of a sudden people are running around and their hair is on fire. I think

When we hit 220 million because the bidders need time and that's something very interesting I've noticed about most auctioneers is that when they've got a lot of competition There were still three people in the bidding for that They rush when there's a lot of competition slow down pause give people time because actually what they're indicating Is their appetite to acquire and if somebody's got the appetite to acquire It far transcends their appetite to drop out.

If you're in a hurry, it gives them the excuse that you're hurrying, you're rushing them. If you go slowly, you're much more likely to A, get the top price, but B, have everybody feeling they were given the same opportunity to buy the object, because once the collector has decided that they're in the sale room, or even privately. Wanting to acquire an object. You have to give people the right, appropriate amount of money. Well, those people are not used to not getting what they want.

So if you can get them to raise their hand and say, I want it, they're sometimes emotionally going to go crazy. If you never got them to, they want it, then they can be disciplined. You know, if you're a multi billionaire and you're looking at a million dollar object and you want it, it's kind of money isn't the object at that point. Right. Jussi Pylkkänen: Yeah, and, you know, in your lifetime, you get the one opportunity to buy the object of your desire.

So Lawrence Graff, when he bid for the Liechtenstein in the front row in New York, probably 10 years ago now, I had no idea specifically that he wanted to buy that object. But once he started to bid, I could tell from his body language that he was in it. And when he dropped out, I know Lawrence very well, I leant forward to him and I said, Lawrence, are you sure? I paused for quite a long time.

He came back in and, having said no, very audibly to the whole room and, um, He bought the picture at I think 10 million more. And to this day, he thanks me for giving him that time. How good are you as an auctioneer? If you show up to do a ninth century silver, is there even ninth century silver that must be, but when you're doing a sale that you had no involvement with and no actual knowledge, you don't know the clients, were you good at Jussi Pylkkänen: that?

I'm always more comfortable when I know the client base, but if I know the quality of the art and the specialists were clear enough with me about what was going to travel and what was going to be sold at the reserve or near it, and also gave me a complete description of the room. The Robert Ellsworth sale, for example, I flew over from London to take that. They were very keen for me to take it. We broke every single record in the book in a packed sale room, but that was given a huge leap.

The first Banksy like moment of a sale, as I sort of recall Jussi Pylkkänen: it was Banksy like moment because the very last lot of the sale was a Buddha where the arm of the Buddha actually dropped off literally as I was going to offer it. It was center stage. And the arm of the Buddha, for whatever reason, hadn't been properly attached. It was just on a little peg. And as I started to open the bidding, the arm fell off.

And of course, everybody in the room gasped as they watched the arm drop onto the stage below them. I just turned to the Buddha and said, Are you bidding? Which completely broke the atmosphere and actually made people feel, spiritually, that maybe Robert Ellsworth was in the room. Something was there, present amongst us. Last lot of the sale. Historic sale where every object had broken a world record.

And interestingly, the specialists were nervous about how this ancient artifact would sell, but knew that it'd be very important to Ellsworth. And it went on to make a world record. It's a huge applause. And afterwards, many of the collectors that had come from China were completely with me in saying, Yep, we felt it. Robert was in the room because he'd been very close to so many of those people over so many years and being a great supporter of that marketplace.

So they were very, very pleased about that. And, uh, extraordinary moment.

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So, a couple of instances, I sold a Munch print for a world record price when I was in the print department years ago, and I said to the clients, Norwegians, please come to the room. They stood at the back of the room. And when we sold the object for them, for a world record, it was a world record for any modern print at the time, hand colored screen, um, they rose in unison, cheering. Which made me feel great. They bought a house with the proceeds, which they then revealed to me.

They invited me to the housewarming when they bought it, which was a remarkable moment for them. Um, I look back at the Paul Allen sale, Paul Allen's sister was in the skybox. And afterwards it was a fantastic moment. Can you hear skybox? Jussi Pylkkänen: I know where they are always. Yeah, I used to anyway. And, uh, there are many instances of that. You remember. Uh, the two Warhols, the, uh, Marlon and the Elvises when that was sold.

Do you remember the banging on the window of the Skybox in celebration of the prices? And that spurs you on. You feel good about it. I mean, I, I have to say that I always felt that I was But there's some, there's some guys that people don't like. And they're mostly finance guys, sorry bros. And there's like a sense of like, I don't want him to make money. And like, competition, never had that feeling, somebody in the room. Jussi Pylkkänen: You Uh, no, I didn't actually.

I, well, listen, from my perspective, I was working on behalf of the person in the room. So, having them in the room made me feel good that they were there to witness how well things went. So, that's an interesting question. Are you working, then, for the buyer? Are you working for the seller? Or are you working for the auction house? And is it very tough to be fiduciary to all three at the same time? It's a balance, Jussi Pylkkänen: but at the end of the day, I'm working for the seller.

As an auctioneer, I'm always selling for them personally. And also as you referee the dynamic of the auction room, your role is to get the highest price from the buyers in the room in a fair way. Well, probably the greatest investments were from people paying record prices at the time. Undoubtedly. And if you're trying to save 10 or 20 percent, those are probably the worst investments. And do you think art's even investable? Do you think in those terms? Jussi Pylkkänen: I do.

I think art is investable. I think particularly today, it's a proper asset class. When I began working at Christie's in the 80s, it was a very narrow market, which led to when the Japanese pulled out, A terrible art depression in the art market in the early 90s, 90 to 92. The next time you saw it was in 2000. Probably not a good time to have expanded and built a big new gallery space 7, 500 square feet in 1990. Maybe timing is a critical component. That's just the side.

It was a foresight, John. Jussi Pylkkänen: Yes, it was a foresight. And the market was a billion dollars. Yes. For Christie's, it's six, eight billion dollars if, uh, the markets are in a good place. So I don't know. Uh, foresight is a, is a wonderful thing. Or hindsight as well. Hindsight is Jussi Pylkkänen: 20 20.

But then looking at it, uh, after that, just in terms of where the market has gone, if you think about it, uh, the market has been incredibly consistent over the last 25 years, even looking at the 2008, 2009, 2008 depression was fixed by Yves Saint Laurent with one hit. Suddenly confidence came back. So confidence game. And the one Warhol selling for 44 million. 100%. On an 8 million estimate, somebody having the guts.

We're in London and came from London to put it out there with that risk and see that the market said, uh, we still have appetite for art. That was kind of the key moment on top of the Saint Laurent, which was winter 2009. That's Jussi Pylkkänen: it. Well, it was interesting because the owner of that picture was somebody that wasn't very close to the market. And when I. I went to see them a few years later, I thanked them, and he said to me, What do you mean?

I said, You're the man that kept the market in the right place with the sale of that object for post war art. And he couldn't believe it.

He's passed away now, but he Reminded me of that many times in the future saying you really meant that 100 percent so it's fantastic that you should mention it I've actually predicted another bull market And which is an odd thing to do when everybody's sort of worrying that the sky is falling and they've overreacted to a price correction I'm saying And I wonder if you agree that there is another bull market coming In my view, it's not about price.

It's about volume and that the market could grow five or 10 times bigger with a number of people with ultra high net worth who've yet to buy are still yet to Jussi Pylkkänen: come. I agree on several of those points. First of all, I love the fact that you don't call it a Josh Bear Market. Uh, you can't call it a bear market, can you? Because that would be appropriation.

But the reason that the market is going to hold itself up is that we're working in a fully global environment where you've got buyers from every corner of the world interested in buying objects that are culturally important. If the vendors are willing to part with major objects, the market will hold its price. If it's about volume, I think there's enough appetite to cover the volume.

The interesting question is, will the top objects that are available be offered on the open market and will the vendors have the confidence to put 50 million plus objects on the market? I suspect that in the next couple of years.

It's less likely, and reading what Guillaume Chiarutti put out from Christie's recently about the appetite of the auction houses to be more involved in private sales, it's probable that some of those major lots won't come onto the auction market, they'll be transacted privately. So you might find that there's a little bit of a hesitation around the, let's say the 20 million plus object, and that one needs to see how confident people are to go after those in the public environment. Well, I agree.

We tend to make it that the only real market is the auction market and the public part of the auction market, and we all, on the inside, know that we don't want that to be so transparent, and as to what's really going on, you can't just automatically assume that that's completely, scotastically independent of things, and with the spreads that the auction houses might be taking, Particularly at the lower levels and the willingness to take the

risk of selling major objects without guarantees is going to be diminished. That's clear for now that I think it's true. We don't really know what's going on at Aquavela behind closed doors. Maybe he made 10 sales of 250 million last month. Could be. And, and, et cetera, et cetera. Jussi Pylkkänen: I mean, these are all people that are handling very major objects. So now you're in position to sort of sum up to be part of those deals as well. So how do you describe your new business?

Jussi Pylkkänen: Listen, the next five years are going to be interesting for me. I'm going to be buying works of art at the top of the market for a handful of people that want to work with me. Um, that'll be institutions as well. I'd like to auctioneer, watchers space, perhaps 2025, 2026. Um, if any of the major collectors want me to sell on their behalves, I'd be delighted to do so. I want to break from it now.

And really, it's giving good advice and, uh, working with the institutions as well as they organize their exhibitions. I've probably got quite a good insight into where major objects are that haven't been seen for many, many years. And I'd be delighted to make sure the public has the opportunity to see them. Auctioneers are a bit of rock stars these days. How did you feel as this sort of, like, movie star on the stage? Did you like it? Not Jussi Pylkkänen: a great deal, actually.

I've got to be honest with you. I enjoyed the process of taking the sales, but being in the sort of public eye all the time is a bit odd when you're approached at airports and things like that to chat to people that you've never met before about the art world and all the rest of it. But what I did enjoy was, So if you look at Sam Mendes, for example, great, great theater director. There's something about being able to come into a sale room, direct the process.

You've got the actors, you've got the script to some degree. But the way that you conduct the sale is unique to yourself. And I think that. A great director can bring 20, 25 percent to any roles, even to Hamlet or to Macbeth, even the classics. And I think a great auctioneer can probably do the same.

I used to get a kick because Every so often, I'd be standing there reporting on, you know, underbidder Mugabe and standing with the press and you'd look over and ask me if I was bidding and I remember one night I was standing there and actually I was bidding and you were like not paying attention. I'm like waving my arms. It's like, yes, we want that.

And you're like, you know, the one time you're not looking and taking my bid was when I was actually bidding in that sale and we didn't announce before the sale. Jussi Pylkkänen: I sold it to you though, eventually. Yeah. I'd be persuaded. Yes, and all that, and like, because they didn't tell you, usually you know who's going to bid.

My client called me during the sale to say, I want to buy this thing, and it's like, I'm scurrying around after the auction started, and I'm standing there like, waving a paddle even. And you're like, we'll get around. In fact, we were the only bidder. You were. Yeah. And you would guarantee that I saved the house on that. There was a guarantee on that. So, but you would have fun up there and you often made fun of me. You're Jussi Pylkkänen: my best spotter.

Every now and again, you give me a spot. Particularly in London, actually, you were fantastic. Because it's a little bit more, um, random as to where people sit and why. And, uh, when you gave me the nod, I'd, uh, execute for you. Perfect. So I'll miss that, with you being gone, but maybe you'll be back. Jussi Pylkkänen: No, I will be back. Kito. Kito spalia. Kito spalia. And remember, do not transact without the Bear Facts.

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