Hello, I'm Josh Baer and welcome to the Baer Facts podcast. For the second part of this double episode on art fairs, I'm joined by my colleague, Luyang Zhang. Hey, Luyang.
Thank you,
Josh. In part one of our special episode on art fairs, Josh sat down with Laura Taschen and Bertina Korek to discuss the founding of Art Basel Miami Beach and the Frames LA. In part two, you will hear my recent conversations with two insiders. from the parts of the art fair world you don't often hear about. Regional fairs in Europe and Asia.
We will go back to the very beginning with the director of Art Cologne, and at the other end of the spectrum, we'll hear from the founder of the Chinese Art Fair about what's really going on with emerging markets in Asia.
Basel draws collectors from all over the world. There was a time when Art Cologne was the worldwide leader in the contemporary art market amongst art fairs. That went from about 1967 until the mid 90s, and then it was replaced by Art Basel.
I probably wouldn't recommend anyone's first art fair to go to Art Basel. It's too overwhelming. You won't be able to buy anything. You know, everything good will already be bought. I'd probably recommend people to go to more of a smaller regional and smaller fairs and then, you know, when they're ready, go to Art Basel.
In this special two part double episode of the Bare Facts Podcast, we're sitting down with the people behind four of the world's leading art fairs. In part two, we turn away from the U. S. to take a look at the diversity of smaller regional models. From the world's oldest art fair with Daniel Hook, The director of Art Cologne, to the future of Asia with David Chow, a major collector and the co founder of Shanghai's Art 021.
First up, we'll hear from Daniel about the origins and founding of the world's first art fair.
Until Art Cologne actually... Took place. The only art fairs that existed were, uh, artist fairs on streets. Like, you know, what you see in Paris, where you have a grouping of artists showing their works in tents? The Art Clone was really the brainchild of, uh, Rudolph Serner, a gallerist, also the father of David Serner, uh, here in Cologne and Rinke from Spigel, which was Germany's oldest gallery at the PO at that time. It was the first gallery to open after World War II.
I think Stünke and Zwerner were both inspired by the documenta and felt they could organize a similar type of exposition, uh, but with having works for sale. And so what really also defined the Kölner Kunstmarkt, as it was then known, was that it was organized through the galleries.
So not with artists directly, but Stoenke and Zwirner assembled 21 German galleries, which represented artists, and invited them to set up booths inside the Gürzenich Festival Hall, which is a medieval hall built in, I think, the 15th century for hosting big banquets and events in the center of the city of Cologne. How do
you leverage your status as the oldest art fair in the context of a contemporary art world with so many new ones that are sprouting up all the time?
In essence, all fairs are regional fairs or national fairs. Even Basel, they have four, four locations now. Especially now after the pandemic, it's not the traveling circus that it used to be before the pandemic. Germany is really the economic powerhouse within the European Union. Germany has a population of around 88 million people. So it's one of the largest countries in Europe. By comparison, Switzerland has around 7 million.
Germany also has a very long tradition of art collecting, going back into the Middle Ages. In terms of the sheer size and number of galleries that we have, a conservative estimate would be around 500 galleries in Germany alone. Running an art fair in Germany is very different from, let's say, running an art fair in Switzerland, which has, you know, maybe 50 galleries, maybe 70 in total. Really not enough to do a, a national fair.
I think we also have to look at kind of the markets, and the dissemination of artists works, and how that works. And I had a gallery in Los Angeles. I sold mostly to L. A. collectors. I had a couple German collectors. And then, you know, with galleries I've talked to, Berlin, for example, there's quite a few galleries that I've spoken with who have zero German collectors. We have this kind of global art collecting community, and then we have these, let's call them regional markets.
Bulk of German galleries sell to German collectors. Can't really compare it to the U. S. I think most American galleries sell to Americans. And then you have this smaller percentage of really high net individuals active on a global level. You need both for a healthy art ecosystem. Art Cologne can be and is perceived as a regional market, but it's a huge regional market.
German galleries at Art Cologne have long had a large local community of collectors to rely upon, but the contemporary market in China has only really taken off in the last decade or so. After a short break, listen as Shanghai based collector and Art oh two one co-founder David Chow explains how he used his art fair as a platform to foster a homegrown art ecosystem in
China.
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I think for the first 10 years of my career, which is from 2003 to 2013, I definitely spent more time traveling. Go to different museums, different shows, different galleries. That was the fun period. I got to know everybody in the art world, got to know the whole industry, the whole ecosystem.
But then for the last 10 years, I'm just being focusing on developing the art 21 brand, but at the same time, creating more dialogues and supporting more projects that facilitates the development of art ecosystem in China. We started the fair, not because we thought it was good for making money or that sort of stuff.
It was just that we thought the whole art ecosystem, you know, contemporary art market, since like 2006, that's when the market kind of exploded, up to when we founded the fair in 2013. There wasn't really a structure, nor a healthy ecosystem, to support the galleries, to support the artists. And to introduce new collectors to the art world. So that was the pure, like fundamental reason why we started the fair. It just kind of grew from there.
We didn't really have a goal to say, Oh, we want to be one of the best art fair in Asia. It was just something that we thought was missing in China. And we thought it was the right thing to do.
Now it's been 10 years. And did you see your art fair fulfill that purpose?
I think it more than fulfilled our initial target because we just wanted to be a platform, a community when we first started, but now it outgrew us, I would have to say. It's becoming this engine that really supported a lot of galleries and actually brought a lot of galleries from outside of China to experience what the Chinese market is all about. And also we kind of developed and helped a lot of new collectors in China to start buying contemporary art.
And that's still our target for the next 10 years and beyond.
People talk about regional art fairs or international art fairs. How do you define yourself?
I think we haven't changed since day one that we are a regional art fair with an international target. Because the goal has always been to bring the best galleries to China. But our focus has always been to help foster the Chinese art ecosystem. To us, it's all about facilitating this dialogue, but at the same time, develop the Chinese market. That's still what we're doing right now.
I guess you get this question a lot because there, you know, in that region, particularly in Asia, there's Art Basel Hong Kong, and there's many new art fairs growing in that region. And particularly this year, after the COVID restriction, is there going to be a new position for your fair in the context of that regional art fairs?
For sure, because the Chinese 10, 20 years. The whole Western art market has been there for a long time, over a hundred years, the modern art market. That whole system cannot be translated and copied directly into the Chinese market. So that's why we are learning a lot from Art Basel, of course, from Friis, from all these global, from Tefaf. But at the same time, we know what the Chinese market want and what the Chinese collectors need.
So we've been twisting a lot and we've been adding a lot of what the Chinese market needs into our fair. So I think that kind of formed our identity compared to any of the other fairs. Now
that we've gone back to the very beginning to hear about the founding of Leading Regional Fairs in Cologne and Shanghai. We'll take a look at the art fair landscape of today. First up after the break, we'll hear from Daniel Hook about the unique qualities that set the German art world apart. Don't transact without the bare facts. Consider bundling your newsletter subscription with access to our auction database.
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Basel draws collectors from all over the world. There was a time when Art Cologne was the worldwide leader in the contemporary art market amongst art fairs. That went from about 1967 until the mid '90s, and then it was replaced by Art Basel. Basel, from the beginning, was really forced to look at the international market because they didn't have enough. Uh, local galleries, per se.
Cologne, from the beginning, was a closed off market in its first year, in the sense that only German galleries were invited to participate. But over time, it opened up to inviting galleries from abroad, uh, particularly American galleries. But at the same time, it always had an obligation to support the local market, to support German galleries. I know it's called Internationale Kunstmarkt, International Art Market, and that was the name adopted in 1974.
We're about 60 percent German galleries and about 40 percent galleries from, you know, uh, surrounding regions, Switzerland, Austria, the Benelux countries, France, Italy, Spain, et cetera, with some Americans, Britain, uh, some Asian galleries.
In terms of the galleries, you have 60 percent versus 40%. In terms of visitors, can you also talk to the audience a little bit about the profiles of visitors every year?
Pre pandemic, we were around 80 percent German visitors, 20 percent from, you know, surrounding regions, uh, Switzerland, Austria, speckles of Americans, etc. I think now it's probably more like 90%? Not that it's a bad thing. Thank you. Germany is in a unique position, the economic powerhouse of Europe. It's interesting, but like, historically speaking, artists in the 60s, 70s, 80s, if they didn't have a career in Europe, in Germany, they didn't really have a career.
They didn't have any staying power. How that's today is of course different, you know. The Asian art, particularly the Chinese market, plays a huge role. The Korean market played a role in the 1980s, same with the Japanese. The Asian market's not to be underestimated. They're playing an important role today, especially with, like, the high end, top level, 2 percent of top collectors. America, the United States, is still the biggest art market in the world.
Germany may not have as many of the, you know, multi billionaire... that the U. S. has, that Asia has, but we have a lot of smaller collectors. I think probably the most, let's say, mid range to lower end collectors worldwide. I think more than the U. S., probably. Why is that important? Well, there was a moment in the 60s and 70s when art was affordable to anyone. You could buy a Donald Judd if you, you know, had a decent paying job.
Today, if you want to be an active collector in the, uh, contemporary art market, Especially in the United States, the prices for emerging artists are so high, you do need quite high disposable income to even participate. And so why is that important? Why does that play a role? Well, it's about the dissemination of works out into the world. Because this is what creates a secondary market. And if you sell 20 pieces, 50 pieces, Is that enough to keep that secondary market engine growing?
That it can perpetuate itself? Or do the works just fall into obscurity? If you look at the secondary market for Zero artists like Gunther Urker and Heinz Mack and Otto Piene
Zero was a group of artists formed in Dusseldorf in 1957, best known for kinetic sculptures combining lights and motion. Zero inspired many other movements, including minimalism, op art,
It just kind of perpetuates itself, not on a, you know, huge high level. I mean, Uyghurs are selling for around a million for, you know, a good sized early Uyghur. These artists made countless editions and prints and drawings and smaller works that the normal public can buy. So that, I think, is really part of having art. a good, healthy art ecosystem.
It's not just the, uh, you know, exclusive 1 percent of the people out there that are spending 400, 000 for a Wade Guyton, or spending a million for a Mark Grotjean, or these speculators, or these groups that buy works together as investment funds.
That's a very interesting topic and, you know, Josh and I went to Hong Kong, Basel and early this year in Singapore, we met a lot of Asian collectors and many of them, you know, young collectors who just started. One of the things you hear very often or question you get a lot is like, what is the most popular? artists right now, right? Because people who just entered, they follow their certain kind of list or bullet trips. Artists, you hear that a lot.
The German collectors who come to your fair, for example, the 80 percent or 90 percent of your domestic collectors, and many of them, you know, buying art is kind of regular activities for them. Right, rather than just saving money for buying like a very expensive but very popular artist. So you see that difference compared to your collector group here or in some of other regions?
Definitely. There's a long, long tradition of collecting. But also, you know, the demographics of, of Germany, there's not so much inequality of wealth as in other nations.
I mean, there's a lot of super rich, yeah, but between the upper middle class and the middle class, it's not such a huge gap, and buying art is an activity that even normal people can still do in Germany, and that's something I don't really see in the U. S. For me personally, I think it's important that our arts stay within our lives, you know? That it isn't just this thing of speculation for the super wealthy.
Now that we've learned about the unique collecting communities of Germany and Shanghai, Daniel and David explain how their respective fairs each cater to their local communities.
I told you that I, when we first moved to Kelowna, first time I went to your fair, I just found that I really appreciate how quiet. I mean, quiet doesn't mean like it's not crowded, there are lots of visitors, but in terms of the atmosphere, like people spending time talking about art. Also, as new to the city, I didn't know that many people, I didn't have to stop by saying hi to that many people on the VIP day.
So I really enjoy just like, you know, purely watching, looking at the art and talking to the gallery about the
artworks. I've heard this from a lot of American galleries, like, hey, wow, you know, conversations have been great. I've met a lot of good people. No one leaves their business card and no one's buying. Yeah. So, and then, uh, occasionally it's like, you know, a gallery will reapply the next year. I'm like, I thought you didn't sell anything. They're like, Oh my God, you know, six months later, they contacted me and asked me if the work was still available.
So I think it's a very well informed, thoughtful audience that needs time that doesn't come to, you know, really fast decisions. I remember when I did Art Basel, Miami with my gallery. You're kind of mobbed by collectors and art consultants stuffing their business cards in your face and saying, send me prices for that artist and send me images, you know.
And then you put them in your book, you write your notes, and then you're really excited because you go home, and then you're like, or that night in the hotel, you're off like sending images and quoting prices and stuff. It doesn't happen like that in Germany. The more well known collectors, of course, they buy stuff and say, Okay, I'll take that, thank you, you know, send the invoice here, and then they leave, you know. Others really need more time.
And for a lot of people, it's maybe that one big art purchase they make in a year. That's another thing I love about Art Cologne is there are a lot of, I don't know if I call them, yeah, I mean, they buy one work a year at Art Cologne. They live out in the sticks in smaller villages and hamlets, you know, around Germany. And it's the tradition. Their parents did it. They'd go to the, you know, big city to the art fair and buy a piece of art. I think that's quite beautiful. Now,
we'll hear from David about how Art 021 caters to the unique collecting of its Chinese audience.
I've been to a couple of your editions. The first impression is a very young, energetic, including the galleries attending, or especially your collectors. How do you cater the experience to people attending an art fair for the first time?
Well, a lot of people see it as a young and vibrant scene because we don't want this old art fair model and the traditional art model where people feel scared for people who has never been to an art gallery or people who has never bought an art. We want this environment to be something that they are more familiar with like something that a lot of celebrities can attend, something a lot of brands can attend.
So when the new collectors, when they want to buy art or when they want to learn to collect art, then they come to our 21 and they feel it's a familiar scene. Like any of the other events or parties that they go to. So to us, it's more of a party, but you know, the selection of the galleries and the selection of the art is the utmost important thing for us, because we want this to be a professional, to be a world class content in terms of the overall context you just mentioned.
But at the same time, we want the whole experience to be young, vibrant, and familiar to these new collectors.
After the break, David Chow reveals the secrets of Art 021's innovative business model as he looks towards the future of China's rapidly expanding art
market.
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Besides of the art fair, you also run lots of other business. So when you first funded the art fairs and now entering the second decades of the art fairs, what are your thoughts on the business model? And, and maybe give a little bit perspective. So to the audience, who's not so familiar with your development. Your team also introduced another fair in Beijing. So how do those two work together? Walk us through your process in terms of the business model for your
fair. For us, it's always about the size of the market. We don't grow the fair because we feel like we want to compare to our Basel or we have like specific targets or mission. Of course we do. But the most important thing is we cannot outgrow the market that's existed right now. So for the last 10 years, our expansion has always been about if there's a market needs, then we expand. So if let's say, you know, we can go a bit beyond the current size of the market, but we cannot grow.
Too big because if there's not enough people buying the art, then the participating galleries will get hurt and they just won't come back anymore. Right? So for the last 10 years, it's about controlling the size of the fair according to the number of collectors there are, and according to how well the galleries are doing in terms of their business. So that's something that's very different from other fairs in China or from some other fairs from like not so developed art market.
I mean some of the fairs, they just want to grow, grow. They want to look good. They want the best galleries there. But then if they don't sell well, then people don't come back. But for us, the reason why people always come back to us is because we don't outgrow ourselves. So that's what happens in the last 10 years. And for the next 10 years, it's about business development for us because like you mentioned, we go to Beijing, we go to Shenzhen, and we go to Chengdu.
It's because there's a need in the market, but at the same time, we have to start small, like how we started our 21 in 2013, we started with like 27 galleries. And now we have over 130 galleries, right? So that takes 10 years to develop. So this is our fourth edition in Beijing and third edition in Shenzhen. So we are growing small with a very smaller development each year. We just grow by, you know, 10 galleries, 15 galleries every year.
We have to make sure all the galleries At least, you know, do well to grow. So that's basically our business model in terms of like how we make money. It's just similar to the rest of the fair in the world, right? We rent out the space. We get sponsorships, but in terms of that, I also do have some thinking about the future because I think our fair can do a bit more than just making money from those two things I mentioned. So what would that be?
I think, you know, because in the Western art market where it's more developed, there's a huge Group of advisors, people who are professionals in our world, but there's not so many of those types of professional people in China, nor in a lot of like developing art market, you know, in Korea, in Singapore, Hong Kong.
So I think, you know, for us, maybe there's a chance that we can, you know, I'm not saying the art fair should become advisors, but that we can help to develop or to create more opportunities for people who want to become professionals in this industry. And then in turn, they can help more collectors. People are forgetting that Art Basel started by a couple art advisors, right? The most important thing about advisors for one is professionalism, right? Two is how well you're connected.
Three is your experience in the industry, though all those things are pretty lacking in this market. So I think what R21 can help is its brand is already very well established. People trust the brand. Collectors trust the brand. A lot of collectors came to us and want us to kind of help them to buy art, but then we are an art fair. But at the same time, I think, you know, we have kind of outgrown Just to be an RFAIR model.
So who knows maybe ART21 can become a brand that's much bigger than RFAIR Maybe we can have an advisor team Maybe we can facilitate and help a lot of professionals who are not connected But who are very professional and who work in the service industry like private banking, etc, etc then we can help those people to get connected in the art world. So I think there's a lot more the brand R21 can offer.
Who knows, maybe we can even get into buying and selling art, but not get in the way of the galleries that participate in us. So we have to find the perfect balance and the perfect model. That's what I've been always doing in my career. You know, like, I'm a collector, I'm a foundation supporter, I'm an art fair, I'm a business people. In the Western developed art world, that's kind of taboo where, you know, if you're a collector, you are not supposed to do this. You're not supposed to do that.
Right. But in China, my name for the last 10 years or 20 years, people know what I do. I'm transparent in everything I do. You know, I'm not someone like who say, Oh, I do a museum, but I sell and buy art. I've never sold anything. I bought from galleries, maybe one piece or something in the last 20 years. So I'm pretty transparent in everything I do.
So even with this business, even if we are in our fair, if we can help the galleries to sell better by creating a better service to the collectors, then why not, right? That's what's going to happen going forward is we are going to test and develop and see how far the brand can go in terms of helping the whole ecosystem.
What's your advice to people who are first timers for Art Basel this year?
I probably wouldn't recommend anyone's first art fair to go to Art Basel. It's too overwhelming. You won't be able to buy anything. You know, everything good will be already be bought. I'd probably recommend people to go to more of a smaller regional and smaller fairs. And then, you know, when they're ready, go to Art Basel. Otherwise book everything at least six months before you decide to go.
So remember, book your rooms for Basel now. We'll leave you with that piece of advice for next year's edition of Art Basel, but before we go, one last thought on art fairs from the guest of our next episode, the critic Jerry Saltz. I love
going to the big openings of about two or three big fairs. I go, I look at everybody, I'm amazed at how beautiful everybody is, just what they're wearing. And then I like this. Just look, and then I wanna look at art, but I can't. I just find it absolutely impossible to see
art. Subscribe today to be the first to hear Josh's conversation about art criticism and the market with Jerry Salts. Pulitzer prize winning author and head art critic for New York Magazine on the next episode of the Bare Faxed podcast brought to you by the leading news source for the art world since 1994. Our host is Josh Baer, founder and CEO of the Bare Faxed. Our executive producer is Luyang Jiang. I'm Will Griffith, our assistant editor. Our content advisor is Boliang Shin.
And our editing team is Mona Productions. Special thanks to our guests for this episode, Daniel Hook and David Chow. Subscribe today, wherever you get your podcasts and check back soon for future episodes as we unpack the inner workings of the global art industry through exclusive, candid interviews with key players in the business, as they offer their perspectives on art and the market in the US, Asia, Europe, and beyond.