I like the concept of big our business relationship, little our personal relationship, and I think those two things go in and glove really really well. I think it's important that they know that you are real Burton. You're listening to the Audible Ready Podcast, the show that helps you and your teams sell more faster. We'll feature sales leaders sharing their best insights on how to create a sales engine that helps you fuel repeatable revenue growth, presented by the team at
Force Management, a leader in B to B sales effectiveness. Let's get started. Hello and welcome to the Audible Ready Sales Podcast. I'm Rachel clapp Miller. Today we are going to talk about what closing your deal, but also more specifically, staying aligned with your champion. And Brian Walls joins me today for this conversation. Hi Brian, Hi Rachel, Well, how are you
good? Good? Champions are such a big topic, right, It's something whenever we have an article or a podcast or a video on champions, it always does really well. I know. We just did a Revenue Builders podcast with Richard Rivera who wrote a whole book on champions. Oh. I hope I don't mess up today because I haven't heard that one yet, so we'll Suffice is saying. My whole point is we're not going to get to it
all in this podcast. Yeah yeah, but want to cover a little bit about We talk about testing your champion, developing your champion, but I want to talk about staying aligned with the champions throughout the sales process. And for some of you listening, I know your sales processes can be pretty long. So let's talk about that today. And I know Brian that we've had plenty of conversations about getting multi threaded in your deal and coming up with the collective.
Yes, and so when we talk about this concept of champion, you a champion is a definite asset, but you can't stop with just the champion. Yeah, so great place to start, right, I mean great champions, right, And I'm assuming here that everybody's good with the difference between a coach and a champion, and coaches are good. I want to be very clear. Having coaches is good because to your point, you have to have
more than one for involving you to deal. Right. If your deal's got four, six, eight, multiple people involved and you've got a true champion, that's great. But the thing that that one person alone is going to get those other five, six, eight, ten people across the line is probably a misinformed point of view. That is pretty rare. Right, Even the greatest champions can rarely win the game all by themselves. It's kind of
what we're saying here. So that means you've got a responsibility to make sure that as you're developing that champion relationship. And this is a good example of the difference in terms of relationship in terms of what I call big ARE and little R little R. Little R relationship is we go to lunch, we play golf, etc. Right, big are is this kind of thing. We have business conversations, We have deep conversations about all the other players in
the deal. What do those people care about? How are we aligning to their metrics, How are we helping them think through based on the seat that they send into the decision process, the stuff that they need to think about to get to a great outcome from a technical buying perspective or an economic buying
perspective or an implementation perspective. So I've got Rachel, who I've built this great, big our relationship with because she and I both care about the business she has metrics and business outcomes that she's trying to achieve that really make her a crime candidate to be our champion because she's personally connected to those things.
Is all great, but I've got to make sure that I'm helping her constantly remind herself of the collective picture of the other five, seven, nine people that are involved in this, and I have to play an active role in that. I can't just assume that Rachel knows what those people care about, who those people even are, how they're feeling about this decision process and all
those things. So I hope that's scrapped in the itch for you, because for me, it was always about, Hey, I've got this champion in Rachel, but what am I doing next to help her continue to see the picture or the bigger picture that aligns with all these other players in the deal and think through how are we actively going to go start to fill in some of those gaps with one of those folks or two of those different folks.
Great points, I mean, the champion is a great tool to have in your deal, but they're not a magic bullet, and you can't abdicate your responsibility for building the collective yes, aligning to the different departments. Just because you have a champion, well you know what I mean. You know I have a music background. It just makes me think of the conductor versus the individual artists playing different instruments. The champions are conductor, which is great.
Like I just saw the Cleveland Orchestra a couple of months ago, one of the top five orchestras in the world, and the conductor is amazing. But if there ain't in anybody playing the right parts at the right time, doesn't matter how good here he is. And that's kind of the thing I think about, like, I got to make sure I'm helping that person see these different sections of the orchestra and make sure that we're helping them play their part.
So let's talk about aligning to that conductor, not at we've kind of level set everybody around that. When you were selling and a note, or even now when you are moving forward deals for us, what were your best practices for checking in. That's a great question. It's also a great phrase checking in. Let's start with that. Let's start with the premise that I don't believe you have the right to quote unquote check me in, right, and people do this all the time. You see subject aligned in the email
that take just checking in? Right, Oh, that's the first thing. Checking in waste people's time, right, And it makes you look I think I'm professional. So there's a couple pieces of advice here. If you think you've got a champion, or you know you've got a champion, never check in. That probably applies to a greater subset of people. But don't check in. Have a real purpose that's valuable for that person and make them want
to spend that time with you as a result. Right, And I'm kind of doing this on the fly, But you know, I had the opportunity to meet up with somebody who happened to be here where I live in town last week. He was in town with his bout to family, and so we meet up and we had a really great chat and at the end I said, you know, Lan, I'm gonna send you a note tomorrow with just a couple of thoughts on that that that would be perfect. That's a
good example. I could have the next day said hey, if you check it in, how do you think the meeting went? That's great to see you. But instead, you know, I titled the subject of the email very specifically to a critical conversation we were having with him in his firm, and then I said, hey, great Totha yesterday, here are three big things we talked about that we've got to get you and the right other people from you know, I named a few other people from his executive team that
we got to get in the room. And that's maybe on the fly example that maybe everybody's saying, well, of course you would do that, but people do this all the time. They just throw up this hey checking in right, what's new kind of thing, And I think you got to you got to make sure that you're really pointed. I'm reaching out for a specific reason that's valuable to you. I think there's a couple other things. I try to always make it about them, both from a business perspective and a
personal perspective. I like the concept of big our business relationship, little our personal relationship, and I think those two things go hand and glove really really well. I think it's important that they know that you are a real person and that you authentically care about who they are. Those kinds of things. I think the other thing I like to remember, and someone we've done some work with the boor named Scott Rudy taught me this probably eight years ago,
and i'd been in sale for twenty five bofe years at that point. As Scott thought, reminded me of something that you know, every time you reach out, you should always start with something personal that attaches you. Know,
so God as a Pittsburgh English fan, I'm a Cleveland Browns fan. So we now have this long standing and it's been a while since we've connected on an email, but whenever we do, it always starts with some sort of Pittsburgh Cleveland jab and that's a nice way to kind of remind ourselves of the personal side of the relationship. And I think, well, I'll stop there.
There's a couple of other maybe best practices from the in terms of the care and feeding of champions I'd like to share as we go down the line, but that would be my take. Don't check in, show up with purpose. Show up with purpose. I love to And you know, I'm also reminded of a conversation that we had recently on decision process and coming up with that combined timeline with your customer. I mean, if you have a combined timeline that you have agreed on that works with or without your solution.
That can give you some benchmarks and reason to check in with purpose, Like, Hey, I know you're looked to be at this point by this date. If we want to do that, we need to do X y Z right. What a perfect example, Rachel, Because now the stuff again on the fly, the stub deeck maanner can be timeline update. Oh really,
what's going on? Hey, I'm reaching out because you get said either the timelines week set and I've got some concerns about that flipping if you and I don't do the following a couple of things this week, let's chat about how we get those things done. Like, I think that's a really good example. Always have purpose that helps the champion, not you exactly exactly. And you've talked a lot about too, this idea of owning the next step in a meeting, right, but I feel like that plays into this too.
You want to be with purpose to your point, moving the deal forward, pushing it forward, advancing it in some way with your reachouts. Again, you've hit the nail on the head. And I think the idea of you thinking ahead for the champion benefit and say, hey, this is the stuff that's got to get done. So I'm walking into the meeting knowing not only was the objective to this conversation, but where are we naturally heading? Assuming
we can achieve that objective? And if I show up owning the next step, knowing what those next two or three things are, I'm not a leaving it up to you. Even the best of the champions don't always know what the next step is, right, So if I leave it up to you, there's a good chance that something gets blossed or myth which only delays maybe side tracks that are are up. I think you nailed it right. Well.
You mentioned the big way we can go wrong is to just check in and not have purpose and sending random emails based on your because because because my boss only, I have to send action or email today, or I have to have stick appointments a week. You know that kind of stuff. And don't get me wrong, I agree that what we do for living includes an activity level. That's hie. I'm not saying that, But if the moment you start substituting quality with quantity only, I think you got a problem right
now. It's just like you know, I've never been a big believer in spray and spray strength. I love that that's kind of your big stop sign to avoid around this topic. But where are some other areas that sellers can go wrong when they're trying to stay aligned with a champion? I kind of mentioned it. Great question, by the way. One of the things I would strongly suggest that you got to constantly check yourself for is what I'm about to you or ask for or you know, talk to this champion or anybody
for that matter about is it self serving or is it for them? And I'll be the first admit there are times that you do things in a sales campaign that maybe are a little more self serving, but I think jacting that's a bad thing, right, everything in moderation, but you have to make sure that what you are doing in the moment is serving the appropriate purpose and
person in the right way. So, you know, the lower your self orientation the better, because customers can smell a salesperson a mile away who's got a very high self orientation and that means I only care about me, right. The higher that number of the more I care about me, and the less they care about you. So I think that's a big thing it's it's very interesting. It's hard to get there, I think for a lot of people, because you know, our mindset is I've got to go sell something.
I have a number to hit. I get that. But what you'll find over time is if you have and there's a great book out there called, Oh I'm looking at it, Give and Take. It's a great book, and it reminds you that the best professionals of the world, to include sellers, are givers, not takers. Because over time, that giving mentality starts to come back to you, because people realize that. When I talk to Rachel, Rachel's typically all is about giving. It's amazing what happens when
you just start to give, right. So I think that's the mistake that we have a tendency to make. We get so wrapped up in I have a number that deals in the forecast, that some of the wrong behaviors, unnatural acts start to come out. I think that's the big thing. I think the other thing that I would remind people of is and it's somewhat attached to what I just mentioned, But and John Kaplan and I have known each other for a long long time. John pought me this a long time ago
when we are in management development together. Is the idea that I stole from him and he still believes in it. I totally agree with him, which is the idea of making sure your scampion gets the credit. Right. There's there are ways. Now you have to be careful with this because it can come up, as you know, unauthentic if you're not careful. But if you truly have a champion or even a great coach, there are ways that you can get that person the credit that they deserve. And again I think
you have to be very careful with this. You know, John has had this idea that I took from him called the Champion letter. I have probably in my very long tenure in sales and this role, etc. I have probably sent three dozen of those. Maybe now, I've done other things to
make sure my champions get the credit. But when the champion really does something special for their organization, I want to make sure that I do the right things and communicate that to the right people in a way that is authentic, doesn't sound self serving for me because it's not meant to being and puts the
champion in a good light with the people that matter to them. What I love about what I learned from JOHNA how to do that maybe more than anything is you do that in a way that the champion doesn't even know what they're coming, right. It should be a very pleasant surprise for the champion when they get a call from their president who said, hey, Rachel, I want to tell you about the letter I just got today, right, and
thank that. So I think the care and feeding a champion is really really critical because you know, the reminder that another mentor gave me years ago is don't forget today's our user is tomorrow's champion, and today's champion is potentially tomorrow's economic buyer. Right, So the care and feeding of those relationships, that's really really, really critical. So there's a couple of things to be I think that's great. That's rare, some good tips. I know probably have
a lot of listeners nodding their head and writing some notes down there. One final question I just wanted to ask, or topic to bring up before we wrap here is we talk about, you know, reach out with purpose, and we hit that several times in this conversation. We also talk about adding value. You want to continuously add value to your customer, and sometimes that's a little bit easier after the deal is done because you they're on the software
and they're using it and you can use it better. How can you add value? I'd love to get your thoughts on this. How can you add value before the deal is done? Kind of in that sales process. One are the things that you can do as a seller? Okay, so I think this or a bit of a fork in the road. You can take two different paths here kind of time on the deal on the deal side of
the path, you know, the actual deal that we're pursuing. Just thank medic right, thank am I constantly helping this CAMPI and think through the different metrics that are going to matter in the deal for different people at different levels. Right, The more of those people that we can align around metrics, the better they can all better chance they have getting in a room together and
saying, yeah, this is a good project. Continues of our time and our money, etc. So they medic from a metric standpoint, they decision criteria. Am I helping? Am I thinking my helping my champion think through all the different decision criteria that all those different people are going to care about. Right, They're better that thought through the better chance of getting to a collective yet competition, Am I helping my champion think through what's the real competition
here? And how can the client be thinking about that? And this is where maybe we start to go forward a little more self serving, which I'm good with. And how do my champion, how does my champion help me navigate those competitive waters, especially if the competition has an active champion or they're
already the in place incumbent, those types of things. So I would say feel specific death, think medic because if you've got a true champion, like you want to know, if you have a true champion, walk them through medic, show them your I mean we do this when we have true champions. We show them are opportunity manager, our solution in salesforce, and we just talk to them about where the deal is from a medic perspective. And
if you have a true champion, watch what happens. They start looking at the screen going We'll wait a minute, how come you have decision criteria rates below? And we'll say, well, that's because we don't. We don't think we've fully vetted the decision criteria from the following people's perspective. We don't really think that your criteria is well defined or you have technical metrics around it and a true champion and you'll face so we got to figure that one out.
True champion will be like, well, let's go like we got to go meet Rachel, we got to go meet Brian. You know those kinds of things. Now on the non deal specific side, because I think there's this is a two sided point. The other thing you can be doing during a deal pursuit is look for opportunities to build your relationship with your champion that have nothing to do with the deal. Right There's like, Hey, Rachel, I know you're the keep marketing office, or I was thinking there is
an event that I'm aware of coming up. I'm not sure if you're if you're available, or if you're even know about it, but here's some of the value associated for someone in your position. Well, I would love to get you an invite, right Or Hey, Rachel, I've been thinking after something like this gets implemented, you know, with us or without us, typically the marketing he's got something they need to do integrated into the business.
I'd like to make sure that you know we have this stable filled with other cmos who have done this before. I'd like to introduce you to a couple of them, because they I think you'd get along with them be I think it would help you think through how do we make sure no matter who we pick, that we implement it well. So maybe that's a little more deal specific, but it's not about me, right, It's about you getting the
success. So whether it thought leadership or event network, etc. Those are some of the things you can do that I think are a little less feal specific. At the same time, you're pursuing enough. Well, that's some great tips there, Brian. I think this has been a fruitful conversation, even though it's such such a big topic and there's only so much we can do in a short podcast. But I'd love for you to leave us with some final thoughts. Oh, okay, final thoughts on a Monday, so
my brain is engaged. Is engaging first and foremost. You're not gonna like this one, but I'm gonna say that anyhow. Okay, you think you have a champion in your deal, I think you should get in a room with the right people and let them push and push and push to make sure you really have a champion. Right, do you have the right person, Have you really developed them into our champion? And what are we then doing as a result to really continue to test that relationship. Everybody hasn't send me
to go straight too. I've got a champion, Okay, have you tested them? Don't tell me about testing them until you've proved to me that you got the right person. Then you build the relationship. So that's one second is and I'll say it said it earlier. You've got to make sure that this relationship is all about them, right, And you know, like like I was at the wedding one let me said, hey, remember and I think Chris Rocking is a blank too. Relationships aren't fifty fifty, they're one
hundred to one hundred, right. You're either all in or you're not. In my opinion, that's not a champion relationship. Champion relationship. We're all in one hundred or the champion and anything we get back from them is great. But you can't expect the champion to be one hundred in for you because
they still have a responsibility to their company, right. So you just have to know that is the relationships a little bit more about them than it is up And I think that's okay, right, and then last but not lead and that that that goes to the self orientation thing, right, keep yourself orientation well, and I think the last but not leads. The other thing is once you have a champion, once you go you really have a champion, always show up with purpose. As we mentioned. But the other thing
is don't apologize. Maybe that's a bad way to say it, but what I mean by that is when you show up with something, just put it on the table, because you know, once you have that relationship, you don't have to fight around the edges, like go right in whatever the conversation needs to be, put it on the table. Don't apologize for that. It's like be ready, know what you gotta get done, and be direct about it. Maybe that's a good way to put it. I like it,
And don't check in, No more checking in, all right. Thank you so much, Brian, Thanks Rachel. It was really fun to talk to you. Thank you for letting me start my week this play. Oh. I appreciate having you, and don't forget we have tons of content on Champions and all the medic components on how to be a great qualifier as a salesperson on a sender. You can check it out my dot asender dot com. Thank you for listening to the Audible Ready Sales podcast. At Force Management,
we're focused on transforming sales organizations into elite teams. Are proven methodologies, deliver programs that build company alignment and fuel repeatable revenue growth. Give your teams the ability to execute the growth strategy at the point of sale. Our strength is our experience. The proof is in our results. Let's get started. Visit us at forcemanagement dot com. You've been listening to the Audible Ready podcast. To not miss an episode, subscribe to the show in your favorite podcast
player. Until next time.