The next conversation is a really important one.
We're talking about where the narcissists can really change. And we live in such an unforgiving society. We are people that, you know, we've got standards for everyone but ourselves. Sometimes and you think you can change and you can be a better person and stop whatever you're doing, because we're all flawed, we all have issues. But for some.
Reason, you don't think the next person can change. The next person.
Oh, they've gone too far. There's not coming back for them. You know, he's a narcissist. Okay, he'll never be okay, you know, I mean, I don't even know if people use narcissism with women, right, it's very seldom. We year people here. We hear people saying a woman is a narcissist. You hear it now and again. But I think it's used a lot to describe men. And that's a conversation
we're gonna be having now with Carrie Redman. And you excuse me, you're a feedback specialist and founder of Brain Harmonics in South Africa.
Carrie, good evening and welcome to the show.
Haafy, thank you so much for having me.
You know, I mean in our intro and in the conversation that we were having a little earlier, as I was, you know, introducing the show or apologies for that, I'm so sorry.
It's Jessica Swartz.
It is.
Apologies for that. We did get your name wrong right on the runner. But yes, Jessica, welcome and thank you so much for joining us. I was saying at the start of our conversation that the term narcissist is one that's used quite a bit and very used loosely and almost very recklessly.
Sometimes do is that not? So?
That is a lot of the time, the second someone displays any sense of self importance or self confidence, I should say a lot of the time, it can be characterized as narcissism.
And is it always No.
It's nice. Sometimes someone is simply just arrogant. It doesn't necessarily mean they are a narcissist.
Yes, I think it's become people have started using the two interchangeably, where sometimes you just mean this this man is arrogant, Well, this person is arrogant, But then we use the term narcissism. I want us to start with narcissistic personality disorder, because that's a health condition.
Isn't it, it is, yes.
What is it? And how do you know? You may have NPD?
So the really the way that you would know is you would have to have a professional diagnosis. But narcissistic personality to disorder is someone who has an exaggerated sense of self importance. They are often quite charming. They that's how they lure you, is they charm you, They chart you to get what they want and then they switch. Now, when it comes to narcissism and narcissists, a lot of people often wonder like why me, why what? Like those are my fault? And the thing is it's not. That's
what a narcissist does. They look for people who are very empathetic. They look for people who have low self love or things like that, and then they charm you and the manipulate you to get what they want.
You know, I've seen people saying that there's a difference between a narcissist and a person with narcissistic personality disorder?
Is that the case?
So I wouldn't say so. For my opinion, personally, I think that someone with narcissistic personality disorder is more it's like, more high profile behavior than what is commonly known as a narcissist. That is a differentiation that I would make personally.
Yeah, but you're saying with the disorder would have to be diagnosed and you'd have to have seen a professional to diagnose you.
That is correct.
Yes, how does that work? So?
So I mean, what what symptoms can one look out for? I mean, I think it sounds it sounds odd, and it sounds like something funny when you think, am I arrogant?
Do I think too highly of myself?
Do I?
And then maybe I should go get checked out? Is that how it works?
So not necessarily like Some personality traits that anarcissist may have is they think they are more important than everyone else. They are very self censive. They can be overly controlling, and I know people there's a difference between puggressive and controlling, and when I say overly controlling, I mean and full control of everything all the time. They often get upset when they feel slightly criticized. They will make any conversation
about them. It's basically someone who's entire world rules around me. How can I make this about me? How can I use you to get what I want? So those are definitely key traits of a narcissist.
We're speaking narcissistic personality disorder.
Can a narcissist really change? Right?
On seven oh two Jessica Swartz a neuro feedback practitioner, and she's with Brain Harmonics talking us through narcissism. And I keep saying it's it's a buzzword right now, everyone says that one's a narcissist, he's a narcissist.
Oh, I left because he's a narcissist. Oh I can't because he's narcissistic.
But I also do think there should be a concerted effort to understand what exactly it is. We're taking your calls on zero double one double A three oh seven oh two O to one double four six oh five six seven. If you'd rather send us an S mess it's three one seven O two that's the S mess number, and on whatsip zero seven two zero seven two seven oh two one seven oh two. So get in touch with us. Have you been in contact with an narcissistic person? Are you of the opinion that they can come back
from that? Get in touch with us. We'd love to hear from you, Jessica. That brings me to my next question. Since it is something that can be diagnosed, is it also something that can be medicated?
So, Jessica, can you hear me? I'm sorry, I think I cut out.
A little bit. Yes, yes, like we can hear you now.
Okay, So it's not necessarily a trade that can be medicated because it's not I'm not quite sure how the word I'm looking for. It's more of a thing that your brain created as a protective layer almost, So it's not like VPD or schizophrenia where there are medications to help it. Like I said, a lot of people confuse
being arrogant or overconfident with narcissism. So the main thing that would help a narcissist or cure a narcissism would be them taking accountability and you know, go into therapy and talking about you know, first of what you know they upbringing was what caused their brain to go into this and make the transition into protecting themselves so much so that where they can't be vulnerable.
H Okay.
So it's something that would have to be dealt with in therapy. Yes, oh okay, And I mean then I suppose this is an inverted commerce. Can a narcissist or a narcissism be quote unquote cured.
Yes, but it is extremely rare and difficult because, like I said, you know, the person has to take accountability, they have to want to change and seek helpful themselves. You know, if I was a narcissist, then you're trying to say, you know, Jessica, you need to get help or you know, we need to address these things, and I don't necessarily want to. I'm going to stay in that same mindset of I'm not the problem. I'm the
victim here. You know, I'm not going to take accountability for those things, and I may resist going to therapy so it can be cured. But the person themselves, the narcissists themselves, would have to be the one to make that change.
Ah, So to have to come from them.
Good would yes?
And how I mean generally people with this disorder are they good with introspection? I imagine they aren't because it's everyone else that's wrong and they're amazing and everything should be sent to them and they're the you know, the main character of life. I don't think it would be easy for them to introspect.
No, you are one hundred percent correct, because remember, like we were saying they are the victim and their brain. It's your fault. You did this to me, you know, it's your fault that we have in this argument. They really do not think that they are a problem or to blame at all. So yeah, no, it would be very difficult for someone else to help them.
And I mean, are they causes to this disorder you know, are bringing?
Maybe? You know, are they causes? Or is that far too simplistic?
So no, they are, you know, childhood upbringing, excessive praise or being overvalued. When a child is constantly told or they're special or they're better than others, they may learn to accept admiration without effort at all. Or it could be the exact opposite, excessive criticism and emotional neglect to where they feel like they never got enough. So then they develop this false sense and this inflated image to protect themselves from deep insecurity. Or it could be conditional
love or conditional approval. You know, they may praise that admiration to feel worthy because they were only given God admiration if they performed as stressing way as a child. Of course, then the last example would be they grew up with narcissistic parents or emotional abuse that reinforced the manipulative and self censored behavior.
I'm taking your calls on Is there a double one three seven to talk to us? Have you been in a relationship with a narcissist? Are you married to one? And how is it being, you know, in contact with a person like that, someone who is so self absorbed they're the main character of life. You know, someone who sees no wrong in themselves, but you know only it's it's other people. It's always other people who are wrong,
Always other people who are the problem. Someone who thinks they are more important and matter more than everyone else. I want to hear from you. Give us a call so we can talk about it. I guess this evening talking us through narcissistic personality disorder is Jessica Swartz, and she is helping us make sense of the disorder. I'm learning a lot about it, and I hope you are too, Jessica. I mean, maybe let's also go into how can one
cope with a narcissist? How do you especially one who is quote unquote unrepentant or doesn't want.
To seek help.
So there are quite a few ways to deal or cope with a narcissist. The first one I would definitely say is remember that it isn't your fault. Not everything is your fault. Well, so make sure that you kind of educate yourself about narcissism so that you can also
kind of understand their point of view. I guess you could say, you know, at the end of the day, as difficult and horrible as it is to deal with a narcissist, I feel like it's always good to understand where they're coming from, you know, maybe understand the root of where their narcissism is coming from. Maintaining boundaries, Also establishing healthy boundary is you know, avoid arguments, As difficult as it may be, avoiding arguments is also a really
good thing. Or considering therapy for yourself so that you know, you can also learn how to set healthier boundaries, like I've aforementioned, being confident in being seen. You know, those are just a few ways to deal with a narcissist.
Yeah, Anonymous, you're in So you had experience with a narcissist.
Good evening, Welcome to the show Evening.
Yes, I did for ten years, so it was a selling new relationship. So I just came from totial institution. Well, I came from my first year. I wasn't a relationship. This was my first boyfriend, and I didn't understand why whenever you would express yourself it would be like a courtroom. So you're the one less of problem. You're this, you're that. Youre so imagine as a young person experiencing that and
not experiencing the full affection of a relationship. It took a long time for me to actually say, Okay, in actual fact, I'm not the problem here, right, And I'm still healing even ten plus years later, I'm still healing from it. It's a traumatic it's really traumatic. So for for somebody to actually say, you must understand the narcissist.
You can never understand the nas I write my experience and never understood this person because he chose a path of you're wrong, and you're wrong constant constantly.
He's never wrong.
And and at what point did you realize that you're in a relationship with a narcissist.
It took my mother to actually open my eyes, you know, so, so you know, like where you because it's your first relationship, you've never had, You've never dealt with any relationship with any other person. Right, So it took somebody else to actually open my eyes and and and and and show me an experience of what love is supposed to be. This is not love, this is actually you're in a courtroom, a constant courtroom that is never ending, you know. And
he would do whatever he wanted. He would go cheating, and it will be a play for him to do that. And if you address it, then you're the problem.
It's all your fault.
It's because of this because somebody died in your family. You can't be emotional about it.
And you said, ten years later.
Yeah, yeah, it's a long time. It took a long time to actually recognize that I am actually not the problem. Yeah, that person is the problem, you know. So yeah, so narcissists, I think it's just in the DNA. We can say that they might there must be some adade thing that that occurs in their upbringing, but it's like it's in it's in them in their DNA. You can never cheat the narcissist.
I don't know.
It's it's chronic, chronic thing.
And and if I may anonymous ten years on, how is this affected your other relationships? Are you in a in a long term relationship.
Now, No, I don't trust. I don't trust anybody now. Like I think also, if I experience a certain level of maybe an argument and and there's no peace within that argument or even like a normal conversation, I would rather just shut down and away from that and just remove myself from that because it's a trigger. It's a it's a it's terrible. It's terrible. Yeah, the trigger, so I've seen, it gives me basically like some form of PTSD.
You know, I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry.
Yeah, but it took a long time to actually built myself up again. I'm in a good place. I'm in a good place. I'm obviously not completely feels but I'm in a good place.
And are you getting help?
Are you?
Are you getting serious?
Definity? Definitely definity? So whatever trigger? So what my my my therapist stated that I whatever triggers that I experienced, I just have to just move myself from it because obviously I will develop anxiety issues and you know, and hyperventilate like it will be that bad, it will be that bad. So so so that that helps a lot, you know, that helps a lot. But I removed myself from anything that creates prayers in my life removes them.
Sure, yeah, yeah, so that's my part of my Yeah, Altamus, I just want to I want to thank you so much for being so vulnerable with us this evening.
And sure yeah and and and I wish you all the best, you know, yeah, and I wish you healing.
Thank you, thank you.
I mean, Jessica, is does a sound familiar the fact that the effects of the behaviors of narcissists that's not a long lasting, are so long lasting on the lives of others, particularly those affected by them.
It does, you know, and it is an unfortunate thing that it takes so long to heal. And you know, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. And the unfortunate part of it is it is so common and it does take a long time to heal because remember especially you know, like Anonymous said, it was a long term relationship. So when someone is constantly saying, this is your fault, you know this is because of you, and you know you are now conditioned to think, oh, it is my fault.
You know this is because of me. So you know, that's just one of the examples, and it's going to take a long time for you to be like, actually, it's not Actually I didn't do anything wrong. So it's things like that where you kind of have to teach yourself that you weren't the problem.
And I think an important question to raise awareness but also to debunk some myths. Narcissism is not a gender It's not gender dependence, right, It's not a male thing or a female thing.
Not, it's not not. Anyone can be a narcissist, male, female, in between, doesn't matter.
Do you know why more it's always used in relation or to describe men more than it is to describe women.
Is it because women just like to use the word, So.
That could be the reason. Can you please repeat that last little bit.
I didn't No, no, no, I'm just saying, you know, and and quite we might not know. I'm just saying, you know, it's interesting, and I wonder why why it's often used, you know, to describe men, you know, especially now that we understand that it's a disorder and can affect everyone, you know, I it it has me wondering why why is it used often to describe men?
Oh okay, I'm so sorry. The first time you asked that question, I thought you said something else, but no, So it is used more to the describe men because more men are diagnosed with narcissistic personality disupport it. And that doesn't mean that you know, no woman can have can be a narcissist. It is just that men display
more characteristics. Based on science and studies, cultural and gender normal society often does encourage narcissistic traits and men like you know, toughness, independence, status, emotional detachments as well traits like ambition and confidence and assertiveness. Those all praised and men so again, like one of the reason is when constant things like that are being praised, it can develop into a constant need for the praise for those things.
Jessica Swartz, I want to thank you so much for coming on the show and just helping us make sense of narcissism.