Political analysis: Mkhwanazi/Mchunu saga

and I was thinking South Africans must feel. So it must be a mixed feeling to know that all the fears that many of us have had and the speculations that many of us have had about what may or may not be happening in this country around drug hotels and how it could only be that you know, powerful people are involved, because what do you mean we're not fighting drugs with the capacity that we have here in this country. So Africans, I've been saying, I'm sure powerful

people are involved. I'm sure there's big people behind this. And whether or not that's true, the fact that it's coming from a senior police officer is mind blowing. It's insane because this is a man who's at the forefront of crime prevention in his province and a big player in this country when it comes to the combating of crime and the fact that he's making these claims and

allegations mind boggling. I tell you, I found myself with my draw on the ground because I just thought, wow, and as expected, there's been development after development after development, and here top Us makes sense of it all is political analyst Shumelo Abaout joining us live now on the show. Shumelo, thank you so much for joining us this evening. Welcome to the open Masamachell.

so serious. And I think, secondly, General Quanas, these revelations yesterday actually expose the decay, the institutional decay that is generic in South Africa's public sector, not only in steps but generally, because I think that he alluded to the fact that there are some members of the judiciary as well as some law enforcement agencies within the country who are involved in this entire syndicate that he was trying to highlight. They was trying to paint a picture of yesterday.

So I think generally we've been seeing these things happening, but we never really knew what the genesis or what the cracks of everything is. So I think what he exposed yesterday is the decay not only in scepts, but it was just a sample of what is happening generally across institutions in our public sector in South Africa and politically.

think he's been a favorite by by most. And now this happens, I mean it almost it puts us all in a state of confusion about where's he placed now?

them actually not getting the necessary attention that they need. I mean, the disappearance of darkness is something that would expect at a lower level of this institution, and it's been happening for a very long time, by the way, So to hear that these things have been happening at a national level and with higher ranking political officials and

office bearers was actually very shocking. And obviously it does have political linkages to it, because we do know that, for instance, the genesis of this whole thing was in regards to the fit of the instituting of the political killing tork killing caved in at the Roguanadet mensions, which by the way, is the province with the most political

killings and murders in this country. So it was obviously linked to that and him actually deploying members of that tossed into Johannesburg and unraveling that happened subsequent to that.

So obviously, as he had mentioned yesterday, that there are a lot of political figures, all big shots, that have been involved in this entire operation, and that I've been trying to meddle and also ensure that they do not get caught, because as he had mentioned it yesterday that what what he themained, what actually made him to come out about this entire thing is the fact that the Deputy National Commissioner of Police, who is Shatrak Shadrack Silia,

had actually acted at the discretion of the Minister in disbanding this trust team that was investigating political killing, which actually goes to show that there are political interests and in middling that is involved in this entire thing. And

it also takes me back. I'll actually take you back to the time when a similar thing happened whereby Jack you Ci Lady, who was then National Commissioner of Police in the two thousands, was arrested and convicted, actually sentenced in prison for a similar case whereby he was fraternizing with drug lords and people who were riding. So this is nothing that is very unprecedented. It's something that has

happened before. And I actually drew a parallel between what happened late and what is happening now, which means that certain there are remnants of certain things or linkages of politicians as well as people in our law enforcement agencies, which actually brings our our country security into question because once the country dometic security or even defense is being tampered with by politicians, they put us at risk of being vulnerable to those who are criminals.

that doesn't even have an idea of. So I think the caliber of people that have been that is something that would expect from the ANC in terms of them

protecting such elements or criminal elements. We saw it with in the Swiftites administration rather when they were protecting to you comes to my Emparliament in regards to the whole guy and Thesaga, we saw them actually doing with the President Rama course in regards to Pala Pala, and we even see the President actually shielding those that are supporting him within the ANC, people such as were the Mandasha who have by the way, been implicated in the State

capture report, people like Malusiki Gaba, David Matlubo and the list is endless. So it's not something that is unprecedented and it didn't come as a surprise that people that members or leaders of the ANC would come out in

defense of something like this. And I think that for a change in South Africa, we just need the Lord to take its course and we really need to really need law enforcement agencies like the NPA to not allow themselves to be captured by politicians, and also for politicians to use these institutions as weapons against one another, because that is what is currently at play now, and that also puts the legitimacy off the state in question if

politicians are being enabled to use these institutions like SAPs and the NPA as bridge co weapons against one another, because that's what we're being thing unfolding in the ANC, that those that are part of a certain cohort are safe and then those that are actually actually have a dissenting due to the President or certain people in the

ANC adulthood of which there's an inconsistency in that. And you cannot have a country whereby institutions that are supposed to uphold democrat or democratic order are being used as politic weapons to fight one another.

o two. I'm looking forward to your thoughts on that, you know, I want to f I've been thinking, Melo that now that we are seeing the ANC at pains to almost show to rebrand, you know, and present an anti corruption posture, could this be the opportunity that they need, you know, to do something or is some send some too senior a member and too senior a person in the party for him to almost become the example of what the ANC can do in this fight against corruption.

any other official. By the way, So like I mentioned before that the ANC is always is known for protecting its own deployees that are in government and those that are found that are alleged of wrongdoing in any form within government or even though that are not in government, within the A and C. So I've been actually saying this that the AENC is actually suffering the same state as all its counterpart in neighboring countries and other of What I mean by that is that it's suffering the

same state as all other liberation movements in neighboring countries, do VANAPF in Zimbabwe and for Limo in Mogandigue, you name them, in that they do not want to they fail to actually deal with certain things that are negatively impacting them. And in South Africa, I think we've seen how the public has actually reacted to how the ANC has been behaving over the years and that they've been declining of the election of the election. So in so

far as this is called, I really don't see. I really don't think that they will act punitively against terms of Tony because coming, like I mentioned, is regarded as someone of statue in the ANC. Like I said, even as Eli Aficans, they didn't expect such from him. Yes, there are the investigations that are going to be conducting.

There's not just there's so much evidence. But the ANC, like I said, is always known for protecting its own even though the magnitude of the wrongdoing that the person is implicated in is so huge, like we find now we saw it like I mentioned with Pala Pala, and even with the VPS scandal with people like tim to seeing Ali and whom they're president, by the way, did not act punitively on but chose to move to another ministry, which also was a sign of the A and C

contradicting itself in its renewal project. I think the only person that we've seen actually being dealt with in the A and C who was implicated in corruption and all manner of wrongdoings was as Maacha Shule, who eventually got expelled in the party, which goes to show that if you get actually read into the dynamics of the ANC, you will know that as Maacha Schuler was an anti pieces of president I'm a port of Way who was

still in the ALC. So it goes back to what I said that within the ANC, these institutions are being used as weapons to fight people that have dissent in views with one another, which actually draws on what does an inconsistency as well as their not being coherent with their renewal program.

What should we make of that? That sounds pretty decisive, It sounds strong. It says we're not going to protect Kuno or anyone else.

did not see any action there. Are many other people within the ANC that has been implicated in wrongdoing and the same question has been posed. He still gives similar answers, but no action has been taken. I mean, I think the beginning of the year they alluded to the fact that there will be a committee of some sort that will be instituted within the Essuy's office to deal with

some of the state capture issues. I mean, the report is there, the report is there, Why not actually deal with these people and investigate further or actually actually recommendations that we're given by the State Capture report. So it just goes to show that there's no intention in so far as dealing with the wrongdoing in the A and

C is concerned. The issue that the ANC has is that it's very polarized and people are using institutions to deal with one another instead of being intentional and looking at things with an objective eye.

Do you take what Figula says seriously? Do you think the ANC will be dealing with sens On decisively or is he just too senior a member for anything to actually happen to him? And the outcry that we're seeing now from the parliament and opposition parties, what do you

make of that? One double a three seven two. Shumelo Aba is our guest on the show this evening and he is a political analyst helping us make sense of this particular story tonight and the direction really that I want us to take the conversation in now Humeto, is the President Posson or actually, before we go there, Shimelo, let's highlight the fact that the DA now has written to the National Assembly and they want the Speaker Togot Diza to have an urgent debate in Parliament on the

corruption allegations within the National Police Service. I mean, what would a debate like that look like? It would be base on allegations that have been made by a commissioner and case it in surely that that's not how things would work.

as David Masbo, Mada, et cetera. And By. However, with this one, I believe that it's a different case in that it compromises our security as a country because these are very serious allegations and general quanas. It seems to have a lot of substantive evidence that is backing everything

that you allited to. Yesdy, I do be believe that there is an urgent intervention that needs to be taken by the President and by Parliament in order to have a debate, because we've had similar instances before when urgent matter has been brought to the fall publicly and then

Parliament convenience to have an urgent debate. I did actually see that the Security and Peace Cluster Portfolio Cluster in Parliament today did have the briefing whereby Ian Cameron was the Portfolio Committeeture of Police and also made some dining allegations in regards to this whole revelation of commission and tum qualities. So I do believe that this is a matter that needs to be treated with urgency in that it puts it puts it implicates our security at our

nest and security at risk. And there are also other people's lives actually that may be involved, may may be lost for a lack of the belt term in this country, because we do know that in South Africa if you are also blower, you're risk losing your life. You saw with the late and Pormofole who was an ordered in ecolin Unity who subsequently lost his life after acting against the corruption that probing the corruption that is happening in

that municipality. So in South Africa, Finion, we're so blower or being someone that actually cracks the work against any wrongdoing means that you are putting your life at risk.

And I think that's a phenomenon that needs to come to an end and the President and others that are in power need to act punitively and ensuring that people who are found or implicated in such cases must be must face the might of the law, and you must learn to crack the work on these people, irrespective of whether or not that in instection in the aenc or whether or not they are supporting him in one way or the other pact. Everyone is equal to the law

and they should act accordingly. So I do believe that this is an urgent matter and Parliament as well as the President, to be specific, should ponder on it carefully and also act accordingly, pending all the investigations that are yet to be brought to the fore.

this whole ordeal. Is he should be the one who is taking the charge and should be the one who is actually ensuring that the necessary steps and measures are taken in ensuring that the work is cracked on people that are found on the wrong side of the law, of which in this case there is clearly a foul play in that a task team, which he as the president, instituted in twenty eighteen after coming into office, is being disbanded without any i won't say any progress, but without

its work being done. So it should be a matter of great concern to him because he was the one who was at the forefront of combating political crimes and political violence, which I believe led to us being here.

Like I mentioned earlier on, so the President should be able to take the charge and also being sued that the law takes its course and not in peed on these law enforcement agencies, because we've seen a lot of meddling like I mentioned, of politicians in law enforcement agencies, and that also makes us as citizens to question the independence of these churchline institutions to be specific, such as

the NPA, even the Hawks and SAPs. Like I said that in the moment, the danger of all of this if we as South Africans question the legitimates and the independence of these institutions is that it puts the legitimacy off the state, and it puts the ciminity of the states in question, and also makes the state very fragile in that if you don't have security as citizens, then where are we to go? Because if our security is exposed and compromised like this, they didn't mean that as

citizens we are not states at all. So the president should ensure that the number one citizens of the country actually leave the charge in ensuring that people are safe and that these institutions rew enforcement agencies play their role in ensuring that no one should actually get away with murder or get away with wrong doing in the manna and how Commission Cornery has alluded.

means those are two totally different things. And I'd like the fact that Quana doesn't well an opinions, just came with the issues and the fact and the evidence way, so I know all those that the agency that will defend those guys that are implicated involved in this corrupt and especially in that department, because actually in that department,

it's all implication after implications, implications after implication. So I like that THEA came up with these issues and bring them to the public so that we all know and those are not opinions, those are the pairts. So the guys from the NC don't protect themselves amongst themselves and try to debrize the work of Quanas and try to make him a politician, of which it's not, because it is just a public seving. We're serving us as the client of country, because we are the cities.

anything that is implicating you and wrongdoing. But I think, like I mentioned, previously that the a INC is just suffering the same faith as all its counterparts in neighboring countries like XANOPF as well as for a limo who actually self distract and behave in a manner that is

unbecoming and a manner that is unethical in society. So I think that that's the what the AENC is currently, that's the faith that the AENC is currently suffering, and that's the direction that it's heading too now in that it does not really care about smorral compass and it does it seems not to care about protecting its integrity because like I mentioned to you, majority of the people that are implicated in the Zonder Commission are people who are A and CD prois in government and people who

are have occupied A and C leadership positions before. And like I also mentioned, I think the last time we had a high profile politician being arrested and being convicted was with Jqcleby who was the then National Commissioner of Police in two thousand and I think in two thousand and four until two thousand and seven when he was actually arrested for having received bribes from a drug lord.

So it just goes to show that right now, the caliber of leaders it actually makes us quit the current instances that we've been seeing recent years, makes us to question the caliber of leaders in their integrity within the ancs to whether are they really intentional about this renew or that they've been preaching for almost ten years now since President came into office, or is it just a smoke screen to make us believe that they just want to a smoke screen to make us believe that they

are intentional about cleansing themselves an organization. But clearly for me, it's just a lip service which they are using to make people believe that they are intentional, whereas they are tons and tons of corruption cases and fraud cases that are clouding members within the organization. So the issue of sense of too currently or the cases generally within the A ANDC, I believe that they should be they should

just let the law take its course. I think that whether the A ANDC decides to handle them in a different way or protect its own people, but the law enforcement agencies should actually take their should actually take their play their role now in ensuring that all of these people are convicted and those that need to be prosecuted further, are prosecuted further without any fear and without any impediments from politicians.

Heal's accountable. But like I said, Collin Malat, you was speaking something else, something that didn't even have an idea of, by the way, yesterday and then figuring in Baalula, like I mentioned that he was just the remark that he's been making are not different. There's nothing that he actually means intentionally. I think it's just the lip service just to get journalists of the of of his case and

all of that. So there's no there's not really an intention to deal with the wrongdoing that they that ministerstmo

discounting system right now. And I really do not believe that the ANC will be intentional in so far as dealing with this matter optimally is concerned, because like I mentioned, for instance, they did it with Pala Pala with a protected peris and drama pasta, and what happened subsequently after that is that we saw the former speaker being a race after the pa Pala issue was being voted for

in parliament. We saw her being probed for some corruption charges for some corruption and as well as fraud that she was implicated. And so it just goes back to what I said that his institutions, as well as people people that are found of being founded from doing are now being used against them. Should they have a dissenting view against the president or against those that are close

to the president. Have the president's here, which is something that is very unfortunate and something that speaks to the verse that contradicts the very same integrity as well as morals that they seek to uphold as an organization.

protocol by going public with his allegations. And I think many people are looking to see what the President's response will be. He has promised now to respond. So we're all looking out there to see what exactly he will do and if he will make any major announcements as he returns from the Bricks Leader summit in Brazil. All right, let's take a call from anonymous that you are in Johannesburg. Anonymous, thank you so much.

party whereby they took their things. Okay, if they are something like, for example, now this guy, the general I mean took out I mean the secness of the elect for example of the minister out into the public, which is good for democrats as well, but in for example, in Zimbabwe, you can't do those things and authority is so for me to compare those two. You remember zan is a minister party and the ANC is a political party.

They do that, they do they think the democrat even though they're not I mean real hundred percent like people are saying they will always support their Pharoh, guys, last look, the president I mean dismissed this minister and the d guys they are supporting their guy as well. So that's part of politics. But at the end of the day, to compare the two, like, I don't think I mean they really say anonymous.

so you'll see when the present comes. With the way he talked in Brazil there, I mean from his voice, so as can with and besides being forced by the citizen of this Ranto's current with an at that will see many decisions country women to say that they're with I mean a good president anonymous.

all liberation movements in Africa. Yes, the ANC is more democratic than the two liberation movements in Zimbabwe as well as more than big in that I actually made this illusion last year where I said that one thing that we can dener we can never announce the A and C on is upholding democratic principles within their organization and the country as well, whereby we have free and faye

legs and people can contest each other without any repressive measures. However, when it comes to ensuring that we enhance the fragility of our state in that we have effective institutions that are not politicized and that where politicians don't impeed on institutions that are supposed to uphold democracy in South Africa, I think that's where the commonalities between the A and C and the other liberation movements are. Because if you go to Zimbabwe, if you go to Mozambi, you will

find even other countries within the continent. For instance, in Uganda, way president has been in power for more than thirty years, you will find similarities whereby institutions that are supposed to uphold democracy or law enforcement institutions are now being politicized and are also used to suppress those that those that have dissenting you to the president all those that are in power. So that is what our currenty thing in

South Africa. I'm growing more and more now where by institutions that are supposed to uphold democracy, like for instance,

the NPA, the South African Police Services. Fortunately the sa NTF is not at that level yet, but we are seeing growing symptoms that are similar to these countries that have that relate by formal liberation movements also growing in South Africa in the sense that our ordinary South Africans as well as citizens generally are beginning to lose confidence now in the very same institutions that are supposed to

protect us. For instance, Once a law enforcement agency is being used to protect politicians, then that means that our security is a country and also public trust agains these institutions continue to grow, then it means that the illgitimacy is something that will follow which will then ultimately lead to us becoming a failed state. I always make the argument that South Africa is not a failed state yet in that there is the form of some form of

democracy and privileges that you enjoy citizens. However, when it comes to institutional effectiveness, I think that's where South Africa might actually miss the lot and become like some of these other countries that have also other liberation movements that

failed to uphold democracy and its effectiveness. Because what General one, as I mentioned yesterday, in that there was there was an instruction to disband a task team which was meant to investigate political killings, which is something that is very prevalent in our country and it has been prevalent for

the past ten years or so. Is actually very alarming to say the least, because if you are a country that seeks to have institutional effectiveness and uphold democracy, then why would you actually disband the very same task team that is meant to unravel and also bring to light things that you are fighting against. Is a country so in a way, for looking for the research terms, that is something that is a bit country revolutionary, and that is something that is irregressive in the sense that it

does not take us anyway. So I think that's the context that I meant when I said that the ANC or South Africa generally is following in the same trajectory as some of its neighboring countries that have used similar, similar tactics to suppress demo, to suppress the democratic order in those countries, and to also weaken institutions that are supposed to uphold democracy and ensure that there is law and order.