WWSD (What Would Steve Do?)

Hello and welcome to The Attention Mechanism. My name is Justin Robert Young, joining you as always by our friend, Andrew Mayne. How you doing? I am doing fantastic, Justin. Well, we have two very big stories. Number one, you have a few AI companies very much getting into an extraordinarily important field in our modern world, and that is health, health records, health advice. Something that has been much discussed in the rise of artificial intelligence, LLMs and chatbots. And it's good.

that these programs exist because we might hurt some feelings talking about the official announcement that Apple has partnered with Google to have Gemini power their new version of Siri. which is upcoming. Where do we want to start, Mr. Maine? Let's start with the health announcements from Open AI and Anthropic. Yes, these are very, very big deals. Chad, GBT.

for health is now rolling out to beta users. My wife is one of them. She suspects that she was chosen because she has sent. thousands of messages about her health, New Jet GPT, and possibly she was preselected for it. I have to say, having looked over her shoulder, at least in terms of the onboarding process, it is a very slick. product, specifically doing a lot of the legwork to try as much as that interface can to help you connect.

to existing health records that are already uploaded somewhere, oftentimes to frustrating portals that don't really tell you a whole lot. But as long as you are giving access to this information, then the Waldorf HIPAA-compliant ChatGPT interface will allow you to not only... look through your own data, but also give you advice as to how you can talk to your physician or steps that you can take in the interregnum. What are your thoughts?

One, super excited to see both OpenAI launching this with ChatGPT and to see that Anthropic customers are going to be getting this with Claude. It's just going to make everybody more healthy. When I worked on the release of GPT-4 back when I was at OpenAI, we knew that this model was really good at doing diagnosis. It was really good at understanding medical.

It was really good at helping interpret medical information. We had worked with some physicians who worked with Microsoft, and we could see that this was going to be a powerful tool. The question was, how do you... Rule this out. How do you deploy this? Because if you come out the gate, say, hey, listen, use this stuff for medicine, and it gives you hallucinations, which it's still capable of, it could get shut down.

And that was the problem was the fact that we knew this was incredibly powerful. We knew this was going to save lives. But figuring out that right strategy. And I think that I think that the major AI labs have taken a very.

I think they've taken a good responsible approach, which is work with physicians, work with the medical institutions to try to understand how to make this thing as capable as possible. An open AI situation, they worked with hundreds of doctors around the world. They partnered with leading. medical providers to really understand both the patient perspective, the clinic perspective everywhere. They push this out there and say, hey, listen.

This is to help you navigate. It's not to diagnose you. It's not to replace a doctor, but it is to supplement that and help you understand what's going on. And they've been very, very clear about that. Anthropic, so too. They've also both are announcing tools to work.

with clinicians to help them use that because we know these tools are these ai tools are being used in the medical industry which has been needed we've we've Every country on the planet, regardless of what kind of system you have, a market system, a single payer system, whatever you have.

faces the problem that medical costs are outpacing growth of GDP. This is true of like literally every country on the planet. You can think there's some magic solution towards it, but as we create new magical...

capabilities as people live longer and people want more doctor visits, which is now the case. It's one of the reasons where people go, oh, there's not a doctor shortage. Like, yeah, there is. When you measure time spent with patients, absolutely a shortage as people go to doctors more. And the older you do that.

We needed this. We needed this now. And I'm excited to see that this is happening. I'm I'm one of they said something like, you know, like 240 million people a week go to Chachi PD, the medical questions. I'm one of those people. I'm sure you are because.

It is hard to get time and to get a doctor to explain something. Now you can do things like upload your charts. You could upload your data and it can give you good questions. You can then ask your medical provider. You know, there are people like, oh, well, you know, it's doctor by Google or whatever.

And there was a reason people are using WebMD and Google for stuff because we weren't getting the kind of information we wanted. I think it's just an awesome, wonderful, great point. I'm super excited about this. And I'll tell you something, too, which I thought was really cool, which.

You had complained among many of your complaints was about the Apple health data. And that's why you think about wearables is there are companies that can make great wearables. But when it comes to UI and understanding that data. It's just I get rings. We got these rings or we got this artificial metric. Cool. What do I do? And the people that worked on software were on contract. They're not here anymore or whatever. That's been frustrating.

Yeah, and that is one thing that at least at GBT Health, I would presume that Claude, if they don't have it, will certainly do, that they have a natural integration to export your Apple Health data to this program. found a solution to it. There is a third party app called Apple Health Export that exports your data that I then had.

through an edit and end script, go to a Google sheet that would keep at least, you know, the health data I wanted to have access to. Then I, through connectors, now apps. connected my Google Drive to ChatGPT and then set up a regular twice-weekly update of that sheet. The only problem is, at least now- It's a Brian Johnson solution. I needed a better source of protein. All I had to do was start my own protein company and- Exactly.

Exactly. Now it takes all of that out. I am thrilled to be able to, second I get this, I will be hooking up any and everything to it. partly solves a problem that I have had for a very, very long time, which is that in an era where we have online portals for our health data, HIPAA-compliant online portals is not a new thing. It's been around for a long time. They've just been bad.

They've been bad in terms of giving us real data, often annoying user interfaces that we don't really know how to get through. And the ones that do have apps are... Not exactly at top of mind for these healthcare companies. If every doctor that you've gone to over the last 15 years has on some level uploaded your blood work. what your results were, your blood pressure, all this great data.

Now you have one interface that you can interact with it and ask it natural language questions at all hours of the night for free. Right. Like that is. Very, very powerful. I don't know if it'll be for free. It'll be for a nominal fee, whatever. I don't know. I don't know exactly where they're going with it. But for lower, it is a service that will be out there and we will now be able to interact with it.

And it takes advantage of a glut of information. This is something that I've looked at with LLMs for a very long time. And that is the value it can bring of fracking, what we kind of thought to be just. dead recorded information in our digital age since the advent of essentially free storage, storage so cheap that it'll just kind of be there forever. Yeah, it's exciting because...

I saw a tweet where somebody had said they got a file from their – like they got an MRI, but it was like some proprietary viewer. So they went into Claude Code and said, can you create a viewer for me to go build this?

And as more and more of my friends are using Codex, Codex CLI, Cloud Code, you know, these other tools out there for creating and spinning things up, that's one thing that's kind of exciting too is that, you know, you – You can be an athlete or somebody cares about your health and with this data in a weekend, create a better application than probably what's out there.

And I know like as I do this as a writer, like every time I have to write a new book, I use dictation. I now just sit down and spend while I'm working on something else, spend a couple hours in the background to just coding. And when I say a couple hours, I'm literally doing other stuff and I just check. in and code my own apps now for dictation. It's just that easy to do that. I can build a thing faster than I can go search the web to find the thing I want.

I'm excited about what this means for medical professionals because now you think on the other end of it, if you're a doctor and you have access to this data and you're using ChatGPT, you can start to monitor things. Who do I need to look in on? What do I need to do? Literally, I'm looking at it from what I get as a person, as a customer using this. But I think for medical professionals, I think that we're going to see a difference in care. I think this is.

It's an exciting period. I think by the end of the year, I think we're going to have some really, really interesting data about how well this has worked out. And I think the very smart providers are going to use it really, really well. There are some providers that are more tech forward than others. I think now you have an opportunity to really differentiate yourself in the marketplace if you are using this kind of stuff effectively. Yeah, I think.

I think it's going to be, you know, it's also showing where we're going with trust. And there are people that have really, really high relationship of trust with ChatGPT and Claude and feel very comfortable telling it their most innermost secrets, including their health information. We saw, like we mentioned before, OpenAI acquired Torch. OpenAI acquired a financial services company a while ago. I think that's going to be the next step. Yeah, money. I am ready.

I'm ready to have OpenAI be my portfolio manager. I'm ready to go into ChatGPT and say, how are things doing? What do I need to do? Look out for stuff, whatever. There's just we take for granted, you know, how. The scarcity of expertise, becoming a really good expert to really understand how to do a thing takes a lot of time and effort. And it awful means that they're priced above what the rest of us can afford. And, you know, you want to.

I've said this a long time ago. Like if you think about one of the advantages of who really benefits from these tools, it's most everybody else. It's because, you know, if you're. You know, when you and I are 22 years old, we couldn't afford a financial planner. Yeah, we couldn't afford a financial planner to sit down and tell us basic things we need to do or remind us to do this. You know, people at most points of life, it's hard to do that. How do I plan a budget, you know, to have.

You know, Dave Ramsey go out there. And tell you, hey, you need to do this or whatever is cool. But to actually have it implemented at the level of which you're making these decisions is going to be super critical. Or offer you solutions, right? It's like that's the granular level is not just. to say, oh, you should do this, you should do this, you should do this. But to have, and this is, I don't think it's too far away on the horizon. Hey, I can take these actions for you. I can set this up.

either through agentic web browsing or something more dialed into it. Like you can just say like, would you like for that, this solution, if this solution is to your liking, can I implement it right now? Can I give you an exciting thing to think about that's doable right now? We may see. What's that? We could see is, so you have ChatGPT Health. Yeah. You can put your health data in there. You can plug your Apple Watch, get your Apple Watch data, and it knows what you're doing.

Imagine Pulse tells you today you should really try to get 12 minutes on the treadmill. Oh, I think that's, yeah. Here's your meal plan. Here's this. Here's that. Here's this. I think that's part of the grand plan. You know, we do the podcast and we talked a lot about where things are headed. OpenACO product, Fiji CMO, put out a blog post where she talked about, you know, where Chad Shippity is headed. And this is what we're starting to see. We're starting. to see this integration of it across.

all sorts of feature sets, higher trust, et cetera. And I've been a big fan of Pulse. You've been a fan of Pulse. Pulse is only available like on the pro tier. Hopefully that'll extend to others. And it's a great thing every day. It reads your inbox, all this to get that, the health data, like you were just talking about, the financial data. It's exciting.

You know, and it's people like, oh, your life is run by AI. My wealthy friends, their lives are run by consultants and very informed people. That's what I want for everybody else. End of the day, they still make the decisions, good or bad. A passive understanding. You want a crew for the ship that is your life. That's what you want. You want to be sitting in the captain's chair making the calls, but you want a lot of people to give you a lot of great options.

As you are making that decision, you want to be the executive and not necessarily everything else in between. I think it's a great opportunity. All right. Let's get into the other big news. Big news today. Boy, what would Steve say? Google and Google and Apple reaching an agreement.

Now officially long rumored that Gemini will be at the heart of the brand new Siri, which will launch at some point this year. It is not. news to say that Siri needed an update. It is not news to say that Apple is behind on LLMs. It worked with OpenAI initially on some of their... their Siri product. Now Gemini will be baked in. And according to the scuttlebutt around it, it is because Apple looks at OpenAI as more of a competitor than they look at Google.

Mr. Andrew Mayne, your thoughts? Well, one, it's not just Siri. Let's be clear. The announcement is they will, under which the next generation of Apple Foundation models will be based on Google Gemini. We're like... all of Apple intelligence. Yes. Or is, is going to be powered by Google, not just Siri. Yeah. Apple intelligence, like, and, and not Siri in its present form, but where we're seeing as headed. And. I we heard the rumors of this and we talked about this, how. The worst.

Again, congratulations to Google. Google makes total sense as a technology partner. I looked at it very, very clear. I think that Google is firing on all cylinders. They're doing great. Gemini 3 is a great model. They've got great models across the board. They're doing really good. They've been investing in small models. They have the small Gemma models, which can run on device. There are – and understanding for one –

Apple having a partner alone, we can talk about that, and then Apple partnered with Google. There are only four companies, four U.S. labs that have devices, have models, as far as I can think of, have released models capable of running on device.

Microsoft with their Refi models. Those are tiny models that can run on device. Meta, you can squeeze, you know, one of the smaller Meta Llama 3B models onto there. Google has the Gemma models, the 3B, they have tiny models. Then OpenAI has their 20 billion print. model, which will run on a laptop.

probably run a next generation iPhone. They probably very easily could build a model that could run on there. We have to imagine that they probably, that Apple talked to all of them. They may have made the decision purely on technical grounds, which I get that. Oh, boy. Oh, it's bad optics. And I understand, too. Like, I'm not like, oh, this should have part of opening. I like I get it. They look at they look at all their design team and Johnny Ive working for.

OpenAI, and Apple sees them as a threat. And there's a very good argument that, you know, Apple did not want to work with OpenAI beyond what they're doing right now because Sam is looking at what the Apple kingdom is and says, because of the devices, all that. I get that. But, man, you know, when we know the user interface of the future is intelligence, it's AI, it's AI communicating, talking to you.

The only AI brand that matters to teens is ChatGPT. And we understand that now we don't really care about apps. We care about just, you know, what these things can do. For Apple to... partner with their biggest competitor, the company that Steve Jobs accused of outright theft. Thermonuclear War was what he waged on Google because he said that Android was stolen product. Yes.

And, you know, there's a lot more nuance in there. But it certainly I mean, you look at the iPhone, you look at what Android looked like before and then after. Like, absolutely. And then there's been features copied back and forth, left and right. But.

Apple clearly said, this is the future. This is where it headed. And they thought Google was just a partner and wasn't going to try to compete with them. And then they did. And that frustrated them. But, hey, it's a market system. You get to do those things. I think that. I was trying to find analogies, you know, and it's just one of the things where it feels like a Halloween out. It feels literally I.

Technically speaking, back in 2020, just as a side project, it wasn't any secret skunk work saying it opening either. I told people I was working on it there. I got a language model running on an iPhone. I was able to get a language model to run on it, and I've been able to get other models to run on this and do this, was able to do this. And then when I found out that Apple hadn't even taken that seriously until after ChatGPT came out, blunder of the century.

Like if an idiot like me is playing with running this stuff on things that they couldn't have, you know, for the for the price of one Apple commercial. Yeah. They could have been in the game. And the fact that they weren't. And I think for incumbents and people who want to build startups and stuff, here is the thing. People go, what's to stop so-and-so from doing something?

Money, you know, you can say anybody can pay for it, but it isn't their mission. It's their focus. We knew that Apple wasn't taking AI seriously as shit. They did some really nice little small things, but not big things. They've done some really cool stuff with image. I showed you the other day Apple Sharp, their thing for doing, you know, creating. 3D out of 2D images and stuff. The fact that...

They got so late into the game and they have to now rely upon Google to have a I say competitive competitive to who do you think that Apple's AI is going to be better than what Google is going to be planning for Android? I think you would. that it would be what Copilot is to ChatGPT. I mean, that it is something that is parallel, hopefully, but not the market leader. It's not the same thing.

I think brand-wise, it's – look, OpenAI may be coming, right? But Google's here now. Google's your competitor now. If I want to go, Google's on television running ads with Steph Curry talking about how easy it is to switch to a Google phone because it has the cool features that you want now and not in two years. The fact that they are not, I mean, if they had to work with somebody, they had to work with somebody. Okay. That they haven't made a God offer.

To somebody from another company to come in and totally reshape where they are in AI is insane to me. The fact that they have not. I mean, like purchasing a company, probably too complicated for them. They needed to be in this game. They need to be in the LLM game. The part of the reason why Google is. Somebody came into my mentions today because I was talking about this. And he's like, oh, Justin hates Google. Homie, old take.

Google bad was 2024 when they were doing bad. They had an amazing 2025. They got their ass in gear. They started pressing their advantages in the way that they have it. The reason why Nano Banana is phenomenal is because they are sitting on so much. much data for photo stuff. The reason why VO was really, really good is because they were sitting on so much YouTube video. They are doing very good. Zora 2 is better. Zora 2 is better. But still, they got to that before OpenAI did.

three is a solid model. They've been Gemini. Gemini three is fantastic. 2026 update by if you're going to harass me, my new take Apple bad. And here's the reason why Tim Cook, this is a reputation. eroding thing because Tim Cook has been, I think you can look back now and if this is the end of Tim Cook's tenure at Apple.

He was a caretaker for momentum that was created by Steve and projects that were created by Steve. And then he was asleep at the wheel for the next 25 years of that company that might put them into existential. Like when you become a client on something like this, that's like outsourcing your OS. Here's here's the deeper problem. The the advantage that Open Eyes had.

Besides having kind of, let's say, a crystal ball into where they think the future is headed. And there's a lot more. 2026, I will say this. And I will say this if you've listened to the Open Eye podcast and listened to what they've said. A lot of stuff's going to come down because they're going to get a lot of compute. And OpenAI said, hey, we're trying to make, you know, OpenAI, we talked this before, OpenAI had to make the choice between.

inference of trying to scale up to hundreds of millions of people or trying to spin out faster models. And so it slowed down their clock cycles, but they have got a long list of things they want to do when that compute comes online. The thing that's been an advantage that OpenEye has had, though, is that they had first to integrate memory, first to integrate all these capabilities. ChatGPT knows who you are across conversations. This is great.

I was surprised to find out that Anthropic didn't even have that. I've had been using Claude, but not a lot that they announced it this summer that that was really late entry. Google's adding this now, too, but that's going to be the default. You're going to expect your chat bot to understand that about you.

And the data that Google has about you, the BR email via all this, I don't use Apple Mail. I use Gmail. Apple Mail, they just completely screwed up for me. I still don't even use Apple Maps because it's just hard to get over when that was so bad. Google has the ability to create a much better integrated experience for you across

you know, your calendars and all that stuff that I think Apple does. There are way more, way more Apple users, probably way more professional use Apple, excuse me, use Gmail than probably use Apple mail and whatnot and a lot of things. That when you get into personalization, you get into that, and that's where these devices are headed. It's the thing that knows everything, does everything for you.

I don't think Apple's going to be able to compete with Google, especially because if I look at my device and I go, hey, Siri, what can you do? And it's not a lot compared to what, hey, Google can do. Yep. Why would you buy? Why would you buy an iPhone at that point for iMessage? You know, that becomes the last holdout is to have the blue text messages, the blue text bubbles.

I don't – I think that there's security implications. I think that Apple has had some opportunities in security, but I don't think they've really made as much progress there as they can and try to build corporate products and stuff. I don't – I'm baffled. If I was a shareholder, if I was a shareholders, I'd be like, where do you think this puts BAPL brand equity in 10 years? I. You've got.

Some of the companies that look to be definitional for the next 25 years of technology, whatever boom this is going to be, whatever it turns out to be, they are calling code reds on. The the relative ability to lead each other on LM arena. Right. Like that's how seriously they are taking the frontier roadmap. You've got. The meta reshaping their entire, you know, they're going to be, they're going to be, you know.

whatever they're going to rename the company again because they just fired all their metaverse people. And now they're going to, you know, they're, they're pivoting even further to AI. Like this is the big wave. And Apple, I think at this point, you can say missed it.

And it's like, you know, when, when, when, you know, somebody, again, uh, there's a segment called responding to people that, uh, that replied me today, but somebody who's like, well, Apple only ever cares about being the best beige box. No, no. Apple is entire integration from hardware to software to OS. That's what they do. That is their promise, their inherent promise. Not be in control of where you're going with Apple intelligence, with every LLM capability.

It's outsourcing the OS. I mean, that's the best that I can say. It is not having full artisanal control over every integrated element of the most important experiential. moments that a user is going to have. If you want to know where Apple has the natural advantage, agentic OS. agentic os on iphone agentic os on desktop like the one thing that i would love more than anything i would trust more than anything is to be able to tell my apple devices exactly what i want

from them and have them be able to do it. Not only can't they do that connecting on an app level, not only can't they do that on their own apps, now they're not even going to control that experience or where the baseline model is going to go. That's like, what are you doing in that spaceship? I.

Were I in – we had two years ago where like what's Apple's move? Then we saw Apple Intelligence. Then Apple Intelligence sort of fold flat on its face. It was a clever – the branding part of the company knew what to do. Nobody else did. Nobody else did. If I were to tell you where I think things went astray is, you know, Apple bought Siri back 15 years ago. I forgot how long ago it was they bought it. Maybe even longer, yeah. Yeah. And when it was an app.

We had the app. Remember the Siri app? The app was cool because basically it had voice and it also had some connectivity into functions and stuff. And I could go in there and I could kind of go do cool stuff, go do this, go do that. And Apple's like, great, it's system-wide. Cool. Where's the Siri app? Everywhere. Yeah. All right.

Okay, cool, which was a choice. And the argument we've made is that Siri was more functional than it was a decade ago when it got acquired than it is now. I mean, they've made a lot of improvements and stuff, but literally, I don't know, I set alarms with it. Everything else is chat GPT. Apple should have launched an in-app, Siri as an app.

It was a ChatGPT clone powered by whoever they wanted and built in, added in features to that, powered however they wanted, make Siri in a thing there and work outwards from that. It's not what they did. And I think part of the problem too is that –

Apple was still having – Apple researchers at AI were still publishing papers that were like these AI skeptic cynical papers. It can't do this that I, yours truly, humbly was able to refute with simple prompts. Like literally paper said, and a prompt won't get around this.

I wrote a prompt that got around one of the problems they said these things to do. I'm like, are these people advising? Are these people advising the execs? Were they trying to make this out to be much more complex? I think they probably realized they just don't have the – I'm sure there are really capable people in there. I just don't think they're – And now they have to go to, it cannot be, it can't feel good to be.

an AI researcher or somebody who's worked at Apple and trying to do language stuff to now say, you know, Microsoft was a bit demoralized with the OpenAI. Microsoft was demoralized when they made the deal with OpenAI, but Microsoft said, hey. opening eyes moving much, much faster. You know, we understand that. Now Microsoft has to compete with it. And I would argue that was probably one of the reasons that Apple did not want to work with.

opening eye was because they didn't want to be in a situation knowing that knowing that guess what the the other face of Apple besides Steve Jobs and Wozniak Johnny Ive the third most famous probably probably probably as famous you know almost as famous as Steve Jobs really second most famous face there, is now at opening eye and all of his favorite people are there. That stings Apple. Apple knows this. Apple had to deal with every day because like literally people like-

You don't understand the amount of exodus they had of highly talented people from Apple to go work at OpenAI. And that had to sting and probably was a reason to say I get I get it to say, OK, not those guys. But. It's got to be demoralizing. You know, it was frustrating for people at Microsoft to watch their entire AI budget be given to OpenAI. But there are very real reasons for it. And that absolutely helped Microsoft. It put Microsoft in a much better position. Microsoft had.

huge corporate. Microsoft has many, many different layers. Microsoft is still able to provide these models and whatnot work there. This is a situation where I... Apple hardware is still among the best in the world. Absolutely. It's still technically like, but as I don't care about apps anymore, I have an Apple, excuse me, I have an iPhone Air. I don't care about cameras.

Yeah. You know, all I said was I just want I just need one camera. I said, you know, if they make a thinner iPhone, I buy I'll buy it. They made it. Of course, it broke on me once I had to replace. But hey, that's there. Hardware-wise, you know, each piece of the Apple Vision Pro is beautiful, but together it's terrible. It's a camel. It's literally the thing like this.

I can't – you know, I mentioned this in my update on my venture fund to our LPs, which is, you know, Apple made three big bets. Well, four basically big bets. One was Project Titan, which was trying to build a car.

which is talked about, nobody really knows about. But Apple spent billions of dollars trying to build their own electric car and realized they couldn't do it, dropped the whole entire initiative. Probably the most expensive R&D project outside of any kind of government skunkworks project. Probably the most expensive. R&D project on the planet. Nobody knows about it. But that's a thing that happened. The other thing was Apple Vision Pro.

Apple said, hey, we want to get into this, you know, the spatial computing and whatnot, which I still think there's a future there. I just don't think we quite know what it is yet. They built the Apple Vision Pro and I was nervous when it launched and they didn't have a bunch of other apps to support content creation or other stuff. There was like no like.

iMovie for Apple Vision Pro. There was nothing. It was literally go watch Avatar in here. What else could I do? We got a meditation app. And I'm like, oh, this is literally what the Apple TV hardware had screensavers as a feature. That means you guys just literally was a bad sign. We couldn't. the hardware, the fact that, you know, the last thing in the world Steve Jobs would want would be a puck, you know, and a supple woven cable.

Yeah, but we'll do a battery. We'll have the battery hang down there. Like, why not put the computer? No, it was like just all these terrible design decisions. They launched this thing and it's been a flop, but an absolute flop for them. Massive flop. The third thing was streaming, Apple TV, which from cleaned up the gold globes for Pluribus. Yeah. Showing really good numbers. F1, they're creating high quality content. I don't think they're making a dime on their content yet.

I don't know that it's going to be as sticky or attractive as they want, but I wouldn't call that a success or failure right now. I would just say that that's a thing that they're doing, but they were trying to launch more services to get people to do this, but they also did this at a time where everybody's creating services to do that.

Um, you know, I would say that, uh, you know, the Apple watch, I think a success, I think Apple watches the last product Johnny I've designed. I think the other thing that really was Apple intelligence, you know, Apple intelligence and Apple intelligence has been a joke.

I thought there were some really cool things came out. I showed sauce on the futures tweeted about, I liked some of the stuff and I'm like, can't wait to see where this goes. Nowhere. And that's the problem. I'm like, and, and, and here's the other thing. This is my opinion. Just as a guy who's been in journalism for a while and, you know, just seen some things. Tim Cook's on the way out. And Tim Cook was on the way out the second that you started seeing.

the stories about how Craig Federighi, theoretically somebody who should be, his job should be on the line. for AI, being behind on LLMs, didn't know about the power of ChatGPT until his daughter told him about ChatGPT. Like when that kind of stuff happens and you're hearing these kind of stories. you've got a massive problem. Either you've got an internal revolt of people screaming and yelling that nothing is happening.

Or it's being leaked from inside the company because they want to begin to have an orderly changing of the guard. And they want everybody to know how and why it happened so it doesn't look like a panic when somebody leaves. Well. A few months ago, ironically, when we were all together during OpenAI's Dev Day, the first leaked reports come out. Well, it looks like Tim Cook is going to be out and this other guy is going to come in. Well, what happens last week? Wall Street Journal.

The little known executive that may be on the rise at Apple, which is leaked from within Apple. So nobody is going to be surprised when this guy becomes the new CEO. That's fine. Look. Apple's a big ship. You want to get your comms right. That's fine. But we're now a year in to public messaging about how much Apple knows they're in trouble. We're in a very fast moving world.

right now with LLMs. And your expectation as an iPhone user, as a Mac user, is instantaneous as to how much you want this technology at your fingertips. And there's nobody for whom has earned the trust of its user base like Apple has with their hardware. I mean, I'll go back to it again. I do think that this is reputationally defining for Tim Cook, that when we look back at his tenure, this is going to loom extraordinarily large that he was asleep at the wheel and let it get this bad.

Yeah, I think that I'll and I'll make the bowl case next, you know, but I think that. You know, one of the things that Steve Jobs told Tim Cook before it was, Tim Cook says this, so we don't know if it's actually true, but he said Steve Jobs said, don't try to guess what I would do, do your own thing, which then now maybe it's a thing that Tim Cook was like, yeah, he told me just do our own stuff, guys, so don't try. imagine what steve would do you know um i i think that the the the

I have friends that worked at Apple high up and whatnot. And, you know, it is it is an organization that got structured largely often when next when Steve Jobs company next came in and took over Apple. And a lot of the fiefdoms were decided then. And when you look.

at some of the products that have sort of failed they just sort of get handed off from one you know uh one prince thing to another and these are guys who have been there forever forever and You have to imagine how many layers there have to be between.

The people who understand what's going on and the guys at the top for Fedorini, they have to be playing around, vibe coding a project to find out the chat GPT is really good. It's terrifying. When an idiot like me is literally running LLMs on phone devices. Six years ago now.

going, oh, this is interesting. You know, like, oh, the hardware's not quite there, but it'll be there. And look what I can do here and do this. And Apple came up with some solutions, you know, for like small, an LLM model can switch things out. But you could see they just didn't have the big effort. I mean, they came up with that much later, you know, probably two years too late.

I think it's part of the problem with the company is that they clearly saw the future as a phone, and then it's going to be things like the phone, and you just make the thing work better, which they did. Tim Cook was given a lot of slack because people are like, what's next? And it's like, well, you can't have a new iPad level product every year or every three years. But it's now, you know, pin.

Like I said, the last major hardware device that people liked was the Apple Watch. And that was, yeah, a long, long time ago. And I think it kind of shows the problem that when Apple's tried to differentiate and build something different, they can't. They've been out with you so far.

They've got a very – they understand – a supply chain guy came in and understood supply chain. Their supply chain logistics are amazing like they absolutely are. They squeeze every ounce of profit out of something. They figured out how to finance. Their financial stuff is incredible when you look at the structure of how. They'll have a company like Foxconn or whatever go build the phone, and then – I don't think they're the ones building now, but they'll have a company go build the phone.

And then Apple will pay for actually, no, they do that. I don't think they do the AirPods. So they'll build the phone, but Apple will own the equipment and all. They found all these other ways to sort of, you know, deal this, whatever. That's incredible. But man, let me make the bold case. Okay, go ahead.

Most people don't care. Siri gets smarter. They'll know that it's in there as it activates. They'll know that it's in. They'll hear that there's some Google thing. The Google thing is going to be in the background. It's going to be invisible. you're going to be, the world is just going to move. Cause like my take is, I think that the world is going to move towards what's next. And that might be what.

Sam and Johnny Iver cooking up, you know, we've seen rumors of device stuff. We've seen those a lot of things. People can look it up and we see they're trying to build hardware. They're trying to build that. And I think that that might be the case where.

Apple, I've made this argument before because sometimes people say, why is this company getting acquired for such a huge amount? I'm like, because you can't wait 12 months now. You cannot. You cannot wait. The race goes from OpenEye came out, ChatGPD is neat. starts to catch on people like, Oh, that's really cool. And here we are, you know, was like a two years into chat GPT, you know,

It's been adopted faster than the internet itself and all social media. There's never been a platform that has been adopted. this fast in the history of technology. Now, granted, there's a different level of qualified customer. So that is a stat that you should have a little bit of a grain of salt with. But still, they did it. No one else did.

And so you need to take note of it. Yeah. When your best designer, the most famous designer in history, maybe next to the Leonardo da Vinci, not to, I mean, literally that's where Johnny Ive is. There is designers. It's Johnny Ive, right? The most legendary designer, the guy that people said should take over Apple because they love the way he talked, is now at OpenAI building new hardware that everybody in the world is excited to look at.

don't have specific direct knowledge i can tell you people i've talked to who've seen it are super excited about what they've seen and think it's very very very cool and you know we'll see um It's different. Listen, people thought the segue was cool. Then we got it.

You know, we heard stuff, you know, fool me once or twice. We'll see. But I mean, we'll see what's going to happen there. But they're going to get a lot of at-bats. They're talking about multiple devices. So you know that this is the first serious threat Apple has faced since Google.

And you've now got, you know, you're you're the guy that created your legend is now at another company. You have to make a choice and say, OK, where are we going to focus on this? What's going to get us there faster? And it's Google. Google, you know. It's the partnership with Google on the existential threat is you might have seeded the next generation of it just works.

that Google will have a better, fully integrated software, hardware solutions on Android devices, specifically Pixel devices, then you will. because they will have features that you don't have. They will be able to do things. And I do think that this is 2026. 2025 was the year of the agents. 2026 is the year of the product. And I think it's going to be a absolute thundercloud throughout our year. You're just going to see products that people adopt and change the way that they do things.

either through ChatGPT or through Claude or through Gemini. But we're just going to see things that are totally different. You're not going to get first bite at that. Gemini will be able to put that on Pixel on a level. Now, you'll be able to build your own stuff, but you haven't demonstrated that you've been able to build good stuff now. Well, let me make some other arguments, though, okay?

because I'll tell you two other things. One is Apple has been, the Apple watch for a health device has been, has a lot of, Apple has a health device, in theory, has a lot of great features. It measures my blood pressure. I know that. I'm told I can do all these other things. If I have a heart attack, it'll let me know. I haven't tried that yet. And I think they're really, really pushing. I'd say interpretability has been a big...

big problem there. I think that they have pushed a lot in trying to make these really capable devices. I do think it's a very competitive space. I do think as an ecosystem, I think as an ecosystem saying that they're saying, yes, it's also hardware, it's the other functional layer, it's all this.

By from, you know, power by Google will have an advantage in that, you know, one, we own iMessage, which I can't I can't understand how valuable that is. Yeah. We're still the phone you trust. You know, they have a higher trust level, whatever. I think they have a play there, but also I do think that the next big area that Apple is going to try to get into is that I have a theory.

Robotics. Well, they talked about robotics. They want to get a robotics, but I think it might be part of that. I think that, you know. There might be a deeper partnership going into that. It might be a thing where they look at this like, let's look for this. Apple is ready to spend billions of dollars on home robotics. And that could be a next step is to say, hey, yeah, we want to get into this space and really we don't want to be behind the serious players. And so, you know.

Google's got all kinds of efforts and initiatives, but a Google-Apple partnership on home robotics would be a very interesting. It would make a lot of sense. The other side of it is in terms of me continuing to be a downer. Is that if this is where they are right now, you know, me and you are sending, you know, a spurious. Twitter rumors back and forth to each other today about where Steve Jobs famously said the puck is going. And if you're.

If you're here, if you're like, we're going to be excited in the next quarter to roll out what will be the partnership between Google and Apple on the new Apple intelligence, then where are you on where it's going? Where are you on the new generation where like, it's just the LLM. It's just. You know, like you are you are relying on that as the core backbone of the entire experience. And that seems to be where.

you know, these next suite of products from open AI is leaning is like, you just want to interact with it. You want to find as lightweight a device to get you what you want from the LLM as possible. I mean, it just tells me like, all right, congratulations. You're having a party for the fact that you're, if you took those next generation of devices seriously.

you'd be taking the creation of your own LLM way more seriously. I agree. I mean, LLMs are the new software and Apple's basically outsourced their software development to Google. I'm trying to, again, people may not care, but I do think long run. When you start, when people start to want to have Gemini, you know, if they're not getting Chachi, they're not a ChachiBD fans and getting that somewhere. And they start just saying, hey, wow, because Apple users are using Gemini.

Not all Google users are using Apple services. Yeah. Well, I mean, and that's, you know, look, who knows? A lot of things get thrown out into the ether. It's a rumor that. One of these open AI products is going to debut this year. If it debuts this year, I'm going to tell you that by CES in January of next year.

There's going to be a Samsung version of the product. There's going to be other people that are going to try that form factor just because it's going to have the heat around it. At that point, if the... If the open AI product's good, where's Apple? You know, they're three years behind. You could say, well, Apple always gets it right. Apple waits and sees and waits and sees and waits and sees. Do they?

They've waited and seen on LLMs until now. Yeah. Yeah, that was the argument was they wait and they come in with a really great product. They did Apple intelligence. You're like, ah, look, they finally did it. And I'm like, well, didn't work. Yeah. Anyway, all right. Well, there we go. All right. Maine, where can people find you?

I'm at andrewmain.com and I'm on X as Andrew Main and the Open Eye Podcast. All right, Justin R. Young, wherever you find Justin R. Young's on the internet, we will see you next time. club hopes you have enjoyed this broker dog and pony show audio