S6, Ep 49: Crafting Precision: Morten Valeur and the Evolution of Ahrex Hooks

Intro: Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly. Intro: On this episode, I'm joined by Morten Ballour, one of the founders of A-Rex Hooks. Intro: We take a deep dive into Scandinavian fishing, fly tying, hook design, Intro: and all things A-Rex. I think you're really going to enjoy this one. Intro: But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. Intro: If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, and please subscribe and leave

Intro: us a rating and review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. Intro: And we recently released our 800th Intro: episode. A huge shout out to all of our listeners, guests, and sponsors. Intro: We couldn't have done it without you, and your support means more to us than you will ever know. Intro: And we also recently released an interview-only show, The Long Haul with the

Intro: Articulate Fly. So if you prefer to listen to The Articulate Fly without the Intro: fishing reports, just search for The Long Haul in your favorite podcatcher. Intro: Now, on to the interview.

Marvin: Well, Morten, welcome to The Articulate Fly. Morten: Thank you. Thank you for having me. Marvin: Yeah, I'm really looking forward to our conversation, and we have a tradition Marvin: on The Articulate Fly. We like to ask all of our guests to share their earliest fishing memory. Morten: Well, it's, uh, I grew up on a farm here in Denmark and, uh, not far from that farm.

Morten: There was a small pond and I, I first, the first memory I have from that pond, Morten: I think I was four years old and that was with my dad. Morten: My dad is not a fisherman at all. I was not a fisherman at all, Morten: but he, he took me down there and I was allowed to fish for maybe half an hour or something like that.

Morten: Then he got bored and want to go home. home but i and Morten: after that you know i probably i'm quite sure that my Morten: both my dad and mom got pretty irritated with Morten: me because i want to go down there all the time but so i Morten: when at the time i was six i just started Morten: to go down there alone i can't i can't understand why my parents let me do that Morten: i wouldn't do that to my kids but that's it was another time i'm i'm 58 now

Morten: and and you know i think back then you were allowed to do more than i don't Morten: know that's just my impression so from When I was six years old, Morten: I was fishing down in that pond all summer. Morten: And it was not like trout or anything. It was small. Morten: It was roaches. Not roaches, sorry. What do you call them? Small, Morten: shiny fish. Small bait fish, I would probably call it. Marvin: Yeah, like probably brim or perch.

Morten: Exactly. Perch we had, a bit of bream, and no pikes there. Morten: But that came later on. So it's just, you know, small fish, but I was using Morten: my worms and a cane and just very basic equipment. Morten: So it's fantastic, fantastic memories, to be honest. And to this day, Morten: I still have it in, you know, it's part of my life. Morten: You know upbringing and it's uh yeah very important and very dear memories actually.

Marvin: Yeah it's funny you say that so you can't see it but on the wall i've got a Marvin: picture of me probably maybe five or six with my grandfather fishing for trout Marvin: on a cane pole and he's got the aluminum worm box on his belt and wearing his Marvin: wellies so i i completely get it um yeah it's great stuff and. Morten: It seems like you never forget you know i think even in my fly fishing today Morten: or because Because you're so much into it as a kid.

Morten: I think a lot of what you learned back then, you kind of have it with you. Morten: Even when you're fly fishing, the understanding of the fish, Morten: how they move, where they are. Morten: I'll never forget that. And I still use it to this day, to be honest. Morten: It's like a sixth sense you kind of get when you're young and a kid. Morten: I think, at least. That's my impression.

Marvin: Well, I would tell you, I mean, you know, my, you know, kind of spending time Marvin: in the industry, I think all of the people that we think of as being great are Marvin: all, all bait gear and fly fishermen. Marvin: And they understand fish behavior. And particularly, I mean, Marvin: you know, this, we've taught fly design stuff, like you can't design predator Marvin: flies if you don't know what fish are doing. Morten: No, it's true. I totally agree.

Marvin: Yeah. So, yeah. So when did you come to the dark side of fly fishing?

Morten: Fishing well uh quite late actually Morten: to be honest i was maybe 17 18 Morten: uh i was using spinning gear Morten: and from for quite quite a long Morten: time then i started working in a in a Morten: shop it was not a fly shop but it was a shop where we sold sport Morten: fish sports equipment and fishing and hunting gear Morten: and all that i think you'd call it all tackle probably and Morten: uh that was it an older guy there was a fly

Morten: fisherman and he introduced me to fly fishing and from then Morten: on it just you know took off so it Morten: was quite late and uh yeah but i Morten: spent all my time on fly fishing it's still just like Morten: being a kid again to be honest we spoke about before it's Morten: just you know it's just like starting all over Morten: just in fly fishing i didn't know anything i Morten: didn't know what to do i needed to read books that by back

Morten: then it was all books no no youtube no instagram Morten: no nothing all books and so i Morten: bought a lot of books and yeah bought a lot of american magazine magazines actually Morten: fly fisherman was with me from that time i bought every issue was super expensive Morten: here in denmark to get them but uh i i've read i don't know how many issues Morten: of uh of fly fishermen i learned a lot from them back then.

Morten: Back then, it was all the great ones like Lefty Cray and Bob Klauser. Morten: It was just amazing to read about these people and how they were fishing. Morten: I learned a lot from them. Morten: I have a feeling today, even though I grew up in Denmark, I'm fishing in Denmark, Morten: I think a lot of where I learned my fly fishing from was actually from the U.S. Morten: Because I was reading a lot of American magazines and books. back then.

Marvin: Yeah. It's an interesting thing because we're roughly the same age and, Marvin: you know, it's like fishing with grandparents, fishing with parents. Marvin: You know, it's kind of funny because I try to tell my boys that, Marvin: you know, it's like you literally got a newsletter in the mail and someone hand Marvin: wrote your name on it and put it in the post.

Marvin: And, you know, I think in some ways it's hurt us from a sports perspective because Marvin: I think people don't put the time in to kind of have the foundation of knowledge. Marvin: And so they say, well, just tell me what to do or tell me what to buy. Marvin: And I think it really hurts, I mean, to the extent people want to be complete Marvin: anglers, I think it really hurts their development. But then I think it's amazing.

Marvin: I was online the other day, and I was shocked to see that Martin at the Global Marvin: Fly Fisher just celebrated his 30th anniversary. Marvin: I mean, he was one of the original guys on the internet, right? Morten: He was. Marvin: Yeah. You know, kind of bridging it. Marvin: And so, you know, you were doing it kind of the old school way,

Marvin: learning. Who are some of the people that, you know, because obviously, Marvin: as I always say, it's been kind of downhill for the last 40 years fly fishing. Marvin: Who are some of the people who have kind of mentored you on your journey?

Morten: Well, apart from the ones I mentioned in like the great American tires and fly Morten: fishermen, I would say here in Denmark or maybe Scandinavia, Morten: we had a very important fly fisherman called Peyton Top Jacobsen, who's also an author. Morten: He made, I think he wrote maybe seven, eight books. Morten: And he actually lived only like, you know, 15 miles from here. Morten: So in my later age, I got to know him.

Morten: And met him a few times and but all his Morten: books are like you know almost like small bibles to Morten: me and that's especially on the dry fly fishing and the Morten: nymph fishing that's what what he was doing and so he's he's been a mentor but Morten: even even even uh in spin he was not a you know another danish guy also a writer Morten: and an author but he was not fly fishing only a guy called jens plow hansen i think Morten: most europeans know him because he was

Morten: very known for all his photo photographs so there Morten: he his photographs you see in a lot of different magazines i'm Morten: not sure if they made it to the u.s but at least over here Morten: he was quite well known and he became a good friend as well so but that was Morten: more like a fisherman mentor not like maybe a fly fisherman mentor but just Morten: the way he was thinking about fishing and life for that matter so i kind of Morten: i really like Like those two guys,

Morten: Preben and Jens, they were mentors to me and a lot of other people for sure. Morten: But if I look at the Danes, they are probably the two that I remember the best. Marvin: Yeah. And it's interesting, you know, just to kind of help. Marvin: Like I sort of have a little bit of a familiarity with sort of the Scandinavian Marvin: fishing culture because I think I mentioned to you that my wife lived in Denmark Marvin: and her first husband was a Dane.

Marvin: And so when I think about Danish fly fishing, I think about fishing for sea trout. Marvin: And I think about, you know, it's a place, for example, like where Blaine's Marvin: predator flies are very popular. Marvin: Like that's a very part of that northern European fishing culture.

Marvin: But for Americans who just kind of think about how we do things, Marvin: you know, how is kind of Danish and kind of Scandinavian fishing culture and Marvin: fly fishing different than in the States? Yeah. Morten: Well, for sure what you're mentioning with the sea trout, that counts for at Morten: least Denmark, the southern part of Sweden, northern part of Germany.

Morten: I think we have a very strong, I think that's kind of the, you know, Morten: where it all started when it comes to sea trout fishing in the salt. Morten: That's what we're doing. It's a saltwater game fish actually for us. Morten: It's in the rivers as well. Morten: But I think the saltwater fishing for sea trout is probably what's the most known.

Morten: And so that that differs a lot because you Morten: don't have that species that many places in the world we have Morten: it here and i i know the travelers come here Morten: now just to fish for that it's not because they're super big anything i Morten: think just people like you know people have Morten: their bargain lists and i guess the sea trout is ending up in Morten: that bargain list sometimes but i would say in general if

Morten: you talk about fly fishing in scandinavia in general Morten: i would say we have the salmons we have the sea Morten: trout and we even have the pike and i need Morten: to mention that as well and and and especially in Morten: sweden you're seeing a really strong community around the pike Morten: now on the fly so it's uh i Morten: think those three game fish are the most important ones Morten: here we see the purchase will come out and i think but

Morten: i think in general if you look at scandinavians they're very Morten: good fly casters most of Morten: them and i think it's because in eastern denmark you Morten: need to be a good caster if you're fishing in saltwater and we need these Morten: those long cast in cast in hauling winds Morten: and all that so you become a pretty good Morten: fly caster over here quite quickly if you don't you don't catch

Morten: anything because we don't fish from boats i think that's a big difference between Morten: the us and and europe a lot of our fishing is waiting we're waiting in salt Morten: water and casting not from boats you could fish from boats but nobody does it Morten: so it's i think that's a big difference so good casters and a lot of good fly I must say.

Marvin: And then obviously, you know, you've got real winter in Scandinavia. So is travel, Marvin: you know, like I noticed on your blog that you've got a lot of people in the Marvin: company that like they're chasing bonefish right now, is kind of more deliberate Marvin: kind of travel to kind of go places where it's warm or different? Marvin: Is that more part of the fly fishing culture?

Morten: It has become that. I wouldn't say, if you look maybe, I don't know, Morten: 15 years back maybe, it was not a big thing. Morten: But the last 10, 15 years, traveling has become quite big for Scandinavians Morten: as well. And I think it all started out with, you probably know, Morten: the guy who founded Loop Tackle, Swedish guy. Morten: And he, Christoph Scherber, his name, he actually, when he started that company,

Morten: it was only rods and reels and lines and all that. They did a very good job. Morten: They had their own kind of feeling to it all. But he started traveling. Morten: And he actually developed Loop into almost a travel agency as well, Morten: which was quite early at that time. But I think he started all that traveling. Morten: And I think now it's everybody, not everybody, a lot of people are traveling.

Morten: I'm not one of them, to be honest, but a lot of people do, especially during the long, cold winters. Morten: It's a good escape. Marvin: It's interesting too, you know, to see that because you see, Marvin: because of the profitability in travel, like you see Farbank has purchased a Marvin: travel company, like you're seeing brands realize they can make a lot more money Marvin: selling travel than they can selling gear. Morten: Yeah. Yeah, it's true. And it's, yeah, I agree.

Marvin: Yeah. So you took up fly fishing when you were 17. When did you get the fly tying bug? Yeah.

Morten: Well at the same time almost it's uh because the Morten: the older gentleman worked in the shop he was Morten: a fly tire as well and we sold fly tying materials and Morten: hooks and all that back then so i started that Morten: as well i was not very good at it to be honest it took me some Morten: time to learn and i've tied a lot of but i think i guess Morten: that's i guess that counts for everybody but i really liked it uh so yeah i

Morten: took it up the same time so i've been i've been tying ever since actually it's Morten: uh still not as much as i would like to these days but i'm doing it quite frequently yeah. Marvin: And so what was your first vice and do you remember the first fly you tied.

Morten: Uh i i know i remember the fly it was a mickey finn it's uh i don't know if Morten: how popular that That is in the U.S., but over here it was kind of a stable Morten: pattern for many, many years, Morten: both for sea trout and for brown trout in the streams and all that. Morten: So that was the first one I tied. It's a pretty simple fly. Morten: So it's just a silver body and I think calf tails for the wing.

Morten: So that was the first one. And I think the vice I had, we had a Danish vice Morten: company back then called Danvise. Morten: I think it was one of their vices. I'm quite sure it was. I can't remember exactly, Morten: but I'm quite sure it was, actually. Marvin: Yeah. And what do you tie on today? Morten: Today, I tie on a Regal. Yeah, Regal-wise. I really like that sturdy American, Morten: a little bit on the heavy side.

Morten: And, you know, it's not – I know a lot of people like the Rinsettis. Morten: I think they're beautiful. Morten: I like the Rinsettis as well. But for me, the Regals are just, Morten: you know, bomb-proof, and they work all the time. Morten: I really appreciate tying on them. I've done it for many, many years now, actually. Marvin: It's an interesting thing. There's certainly a pocket. I'm sure you've seen Marvin: this because you've done the show circuit here in the States.

Marvin: They're incredibly popular in the northeastern United States. Marvin: People tie on those, but yeah, obviously the Renzettis. Marvin: It's interesting to see. I would imagine, too, since you tie bigger flies, Marvin: you like the jaws on the regal. Morten: Exactly. Yeah. Marvin: And so, you know, that gets us, I apologize to you before we started recording Marvin: that we weren't going to talk about pike very much because I just ran out of time and space.

Marvin: But I'm going to ask you your favorite flies to tie, and I suspect they're pike flies. Morten: Oh, yeah. The ones I still tie myself is actually my pike flies. Morten: And it's nothing special. Morten: It's actually built on the same thinking as Bob Popovich, his bucktail flies Morten: and bucktail deceivers and all that. Morten: So it's not my own creations. because he's done a phenomenal job on the par-butch fly.

Morten: So I really like the way he's doing it. I'm just trying my best to make him Morten: look like what he is doing. Morten: So they work really well from our pike fishing over here. Morten: They got the right shape. And most of them are black. I'm sorry to say that, Morten: but black flies work really well.

Marvin: Yeah, it's all good. And I was kind of curious too, Marvin: you know, because I met you at kind of a really kind of niche-y kind of fly-tongue Marvin: event, but I also know you were doing other shows in the States, Marvin: you know, who are some of the tires that you follow and who are kind of some Marvin: of the people you just mentioned, Bob, but who are some of the other folks that Marvin: have kind of influenced you as a tire and people that you just kind of watch

Marvin: that you think are doing really neat things? Morten: Yeah. And I think if I look at what I'm doing now, I would say people like Garner Morten: Brammer is a great inspiration. Bob Popovich for sure.

Morten: Klaus or his flies, but that's more on the traditional side, Morten: but it's still really, really good flies and then you Morten: have an english guy um paul monaghan Morten: uh he's a great great tire as well i think all these are in kind of the same Morten: tradition or the way they're doing things but they're tweaking it a little bit Morten: all of them so it's i always get new ideas from these guys and for sure some

Morten: of the swedish guy andreas anderson great tire we have over here he's quite well known in the U.S. Morten: As well. He's part of the whole trout predator scene and made a few, Morten: created some of his own patterns. Very, very good fly tire. Morten: So, yeah, Andreas and Paul and Gunnar and Bob for sure, the old master. Marvin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's interesting too with Gunnar because he's kind of, Marvin: he's like the young beast fly generation.

Marvin: So, like, he's really trying to work with kind of Bob's flies. Yeah. Marvin: You know, it's where Whereas you see like, I kind of, because I'm still kind Marvin: of playing with this book idea and you kind of see the like Russ Madden articulation Marvin: and then you see the Blaine articulation platforms and kind of see who's tying off of those. Marvin: But it is interesting to see, you know, Gunner is really working really hard Marvin: just tying beast flies, right? Yeah.

Morten: And I think what I like, I'm sure, and he also recognizes Bob, Morten: for sure, because that's where we all got it from. Morten: But I think what Gunnar is adding to it is he's very good at explaining on how Morten: he does it, even down to the smallest detail. Morten: And I really enjoyed watching some of his videos and going into all the niche, niche details. Morten: And that's what you want to do if you're not very good at it.

Morten: As you know i i need to learn i i'm not i'm not a super tired but yeah i'll Morten: get it right eventually but uh then getting a few tips and tricks from guys Morten: like gunner and and paul monaghan that's that's just you know worth a lot.

Marvin: Yeah and to go back you mean so different than you know reading a book right Marvin: and it's like and it's literally you know anywhere in the world and it's an Marvin: amazing thing you can find your people and um you know it's an amazing thing Marvin: like on the predator fly thing i can remember doing classes and we would have Marvin: people from south South Africa, Marvin: you know, and it's just like, they're like, how can we get the materials?

Marvin: I was like, well, we can't help you with that, but we can get the internet to you. Right. So, yeah. Morten: And I think that's, I think that's the good thing about, uh, Morten: you know, books had a limitation today. Morten: You can sit in anywhere in the world and learn from the best quite easily and quite quickly. Morten: And also that's one of the reasons why we see so many good tires these days. Morten: And some of them are not even fishing, but they're extremely good tires.

Morten: That's an interesting thing. And that's thanks to YouTube and Instagram and Morten: even TikTok maybe for the younger generation than us. Marvin: Yeah, well, I mean, it's amazing. Like if we were doing this the old school Marvin: way in the interview, we would be doing it on the phone and it would probably Marvin: cost $200 or $300 just to have the phone call, right? Morten: Yeah, exactly.

Marvin: So i always like to uh to ask tires uh morton they all almost every tire that Marvin: i know has some kind of goofy weird tool that no one else really uses that they Marvin: can't live without particularly if they're tying predator fly stuff and i was Marvin: curious if you have something like that ah. Morten: Goofy tool no to be honest marvin i don't think i have i got my straws you know Morten: to pull push back the deer hair and all that.

Morten: But I think that's more common today than it was maybe 10 years ago. Morten: Everybody has that these days. They'll have that these days. Morten: So no, I don't think I have any special. Marvin: Nothing that lives in a craft store in Denmark or like ladies nail polish or anything like that. Morten: No, I'm sorry. Maybe I'm old school that way. I don't know. Marvin: You know, it's more than doing the research for the interview.

Marvin: Interview, you know, I think you spent probably close to 35 years in the industry. Marvin: And I was kind of curious, you know, when did you decide that you wanted to Marvin: make a living in fishing?

Morten: Yeah, that's a good question. I started in the shop I mentioned earlier in 85, Morten: which was not just fishing, but I was, I was working in the fishing department Morten: as part of my job, not full time because it was not that big a department, Morten: but that was kind of my, my, so it's almost. Morten: Is that 40 years now? Yeah, it's 40. Sorry. Marvin: No, I always try to underguess on stuff like that, right?

Morten: I kind of like, I like that, Marvin. Well, so I started there and I worked there Morten: for six years, which was a great experience. Morten: And then I studied for a while and traveled a little bit. Morten: And when I came back from the traveling, I don't know, you know, Morten: it's a little bit like the bumblebee that you don't know they can't fly. Morten: But I kind of got the idea that I wanted to have a company that sold fly-time materials.

Morten: I thought I could live out of that. But if anybody asked me today if it was Morten: a good idea to do that, I'd probably say no, because it's not that easy. Morten: But I think we were kind of lucky at the time. We had some new materials coming Morten: up at that point. I think that was just when Arctic Fox started out. Morten: I don't know if you remember that, but that was actually back in 1990, 1991, 1992.

Morten: Arctic Fox was coming onto the scene. Everybody was using bucktail, Morten: calf tails, and all that. Morten: Then this Arctic Fox tail came out, and that actually started out in this area. Morten: Norway, Denmark was among the first ones because we have all the, Morten: you know, and Finland as As well, we have all the, what do you call it, Morten: the fox farms and all that. Morten: So we got the tails from them and started dyeing them, selling them.

Morten: So that was actually the door opener for me as a wholesale company going to the shops. Morten: That was the thing they bought from me. They didn't buy the flash. Morten: They didn't buy all the other stuff, but the foxtail they wanted. Morten: And that was actually where it all started, with the foxtail. Marvin: And did that start at the Fly Company or is that a...

Morten: Yeah, that was the Fly Company. And we started that company in 95, Morten: as I said, it was a bit of, you know, a dream, but maybe not the best idea. Morten: It took a long time to make that work.

Morten: Earn some money on it but eventually it it Morten: it got we we got it took off and Morten: we got a you know a place in the industry but Morten: it took some time we didn't have any money i started from scratch Morten: we did we had a very small credit in the bank that was all so no no no old money Morten: anything we started from totally from scratch no rich parents either but it Morten: was a good very good experience i would i wouldn't be without it because you

Morten: learn a lot from from a tough start and it maybe took us i I don't know, the first five, Morten: six years, it was struggling every year. Morten: But, you know, if you keep on doing it and you try to do it well, Morten: eventually people will, you know, follow and buy some products from you. Morten: And you build a reputation, you may be on quality and, you know, Morten: deliver speed or whatever you want to build a company on. Morten: And, yeah, so that was 95.

Marvin: Yeah. And you started that with your brother, right? Morten: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And my brother is still actually, my brother is still at the, Morten: the flight company is still existing. Morten: It's still a Danish company and it's still, they still sell flight time materials. Morten: And my brother is still working there actually. So he's been at it even longer than me.

Marvin: Was it helpful for the business, I guess, when the EU came into existence in Marvin: terms of the ease of moving stuff around on the continent? Morten: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Very, very important, I would say. It's just very easy. Morten: And it still is very good. Morten: And even buying things within the EU for us, you know, we had Vinyard as a supplier. Morten: We even supplied them as well. So back then, just shipping product back and Morten: forth between UK and Denmark was very easy.

Morten: Now it's become more difficult again because they decided on leaving EU. Morten: But that's another story. Marvin: Yeah, well, we won't talk about currency and all that sort of stuff. Morten: We'll keep politics out of this.

Marvin: Yeah, yeah. So, you know, I guess you sold, I guess, your interest in the fly Marvin: company and started A-Rex in 2016. Marvin: And I was really kind of curious, you know, because there are lots, Marvin: not a lot, but I mean, there are, I don't know, a half a dozen long-standing Marvin: hook companies in fishing. Marvin: I was kind of curious, you know, what opportunity you saw in the hook space Marvin: that you wanted to take advantage of.

Morten: That's a very good question. To be honest, we started AERICS at the time we Morten: had the flying company as well, my brother and I. Morten: So AERICS was actually part of the flight company in the beginning. Morten: And to be honest, we didn't see a lot of opportunity. Morten: But what we were missing year after year, we were distributing Partridge, Morten: Chemco, Various, and Camazan in the flight company.

Morten: And we had issues every spring to get the shrimp hooks we needed for the sea Morten: trout flies, basically. Morten: It was always sold out in March, and we needed them in April and May and June. We couldn't get them. Morten: And that was the same thing every year. I will not mention any brands here, Morten: but we had the same issue every year. Morten: So my brother and I decided, why don't we just make the shrimp hook? Morten: Because we really need that shrimp. We can make a hook.

Morten: It can't be that difficult. and then they started Morten: researching and we found a design we liked Morten: and said okay we we'll make two models Morten: and that's all and it needed Morten: a name and we came up with the name erics but we Morten: didn't have a you know in the beginning we didn't Morten: have a long strategy anything like that we Morten: should build this into a it branded a big brand Morten: in its own anything like that it was just to fill the gap

Morten: of hooks we couldn't get and then Morten: when the when we started introducing the brand Morten: people started right away people started asking us Morten: why why don't you make a this hook or that hook and Morten: say well maybe we could do that as well and then from there we decided to okay Morten: if we want to do that we want to do it probably probably and then we started Morten: develop more like a more general thinking about But what is it we want to do?

Morten: Do we have more series of hooks? Morten: How should we work with that? Do we need social media? How would you do things in general? Morten: But all the time, and to this day, actually, I think the most important things Morten: for us is to have hooks in stock at all times. Morten: That's actually the basic things. That's the secret, to be honest, with the Herix. Morten: We have hooks in stock all the time. We've never run out.

Morten: And I think for a lot of people, both tires but even Morten: for shops for commercial operations like you know Morten: blaine good example if if Morten: he if he can't get the hook he need for his Morten: fly in time he will be out of flies when the season starts and he will he will Morten: never go back to a company where he can't get the hook he needs for his flies Morten: because he will be out of business at least lose a lot of business so having

Morten: hooks in stock at all times that actually that's actually the secret of erics the rest is just, Morten: icing on the cake, all the social media. Morten: And people like that. We love it to make it. So it's for us, Morten: it's that's, you know, that's the. Morten: That's the hobby for me around it, you know, photographing all the beautiful Morten: flies and posting that on social media. I really like, I enjoy that.

Morten: But the basic thing is having hooks in stock at all times. It's very simple, to be honest. It is. Marvin: But, you know, it's an interesting thing you say that because we have that conversation all the time. Marvin: And I think, you know, consumers may not understand that, like, Marvin: if you miss the delivery window, you're not late a month, you're late a year. Morten: Exactly.

Marvin: And that's not great. Great. And I would say, you know, the interesting thing, Marvin: you know, for A-Rex, and I think, I guess, so your first hook was your Gamera's Marvin: hook, right? Isn't that your shrimp hook? Yeah. Marvin: And, you know, it's been pretty amazing to me. Marvin: I mean, you know, even with COVID, you know, eight years in, Marvin: I mean, incredibly popular, very wide adoption. Marvin: Like I know, you know, Blaine is using them for his flies.

Marvin: There are other people that are doing that, but, you know, in particular in Marvin: the predator fly space, you guys, I would say, are probably the dominant hook Marvin: manufacturer there you know how do you think that happens so quickly because Marvin: there's got to be a little bit more than just having the hooks.

Morten: Right yeah true when it comes yeah how many hooks is one thing that's actually Morten: maybe the base of everything to be honest i think working with a lot of very Morten: experienced fly fishermen and fly tires around the world that's the other part Morten: of it working with gunner brammer is one of them paul monahan i mentioned as Morten: well so we have got a lot of Morten: inspiration for a lot of very good tires and good fly fishermen.

Morten: As you said in the beginning, it's very hard to create a good fly. Morten: If you're not fishing yourself, you need to understand the basic, you know. Morten: Basic things about how a fly should look, how it should swim in the water and all that. Morten: And if you can do that, you can also see, okay, if I had this hook made like Morten: that, that would make my fly even better.

Morten: And that's, I think we've been good listeners as well. And for sure, Morten: we've been designing a few models ourselves as well, because we are fly fishermen Morten: and fly tires ourselves. Morten: But we've been listening a lot to a lot of other people all over the world, especially from the US.

Morten: And just to mention one more very important Morten: part of eric's is actually steve silverio who quite Morten: early on reached out and said i want to work with you guys i think you you you're Morten: on to something here and we and he's been very very important part for for us Morten: in of the team in the u.s to be honest so and steve being who he is and knowing Morten: knowing everybody and And, you know,

Morten: being able to talk to everybody has been very, very good for us, for sure. Morten: He's a good friend now as well. Marvin: Yeah, he's a piece of work. I spent some time with him in Michigan, Marvin: but I didn't drink any rum with him. Morten: Shouldn't. Never. Marvin: So, you know, it's interesting because, I mean, you've got a long history in the industry. Marvin: Was there anything that kind of pops into your mind as like a greatest challenge

Marvin: or surprise as you built out the hook company? something that you didn't expect Marvin: to have happen that happened. Morten: Well, I don't think there was anything I didn't expect. Morten: I think what we all got hit by was the COVID period. Morten: I think that's actually, but nobody could foresee how that would affect our Morten: industry and every industry, to be honest.

Morten: And I think what we experienced at that time was, as everybody else did, Morten: was longer and longer lead times. Morten: When I was ordering a hook, it would take like almost a year to get it.

Morten: And uh and it and and that was Morten: very very challenging i was thankful that we had such Morten: a big stock which helped us out but even Morten: we ran out for sure like everybody else did at that period because we couldn't Morten: just we couldn't just order a new batch of hooks because every everybody was Morten: so busy at that point you know as you know fly fishing and fishing in general Morten: just got super All outdoor activities got super big.

Morten: So, and, you know, getting things transported from one place to another was a challenge. Morten: So everything, but that's, you know, that's more a general thing that it is Morten: because I think just to get back to your question, I haven't been that surprised. Morten: I've been very positively surprised about how, and especially Americans reach Morten: out to small companies and really want to help out.

Morten: And that's where us being able to speak directly to some of the tires in the Morten: U.S. at a very early point really helped us out to point us in the right direction. Morten: But that's another positive side. I didn't expect that, to be honest. Morten: I would have thought that it would be more difficult. Morten: But quite early, we got requests and people want to try the hooks and what it was and all that. Morten: So I really appreciate that from the beginning.

Morten: So that was, but that's only on the positive side. I've never, Morten: I haven't experienced anything on the negative side, to be honest. Marvin: And it's interesting because I know how important, you know, Marvin: there's really no substitute for being on the water. Marvin: And so I know how important that feedback is in terms of perfecting hook designs.

Marvin: And that's, you know, we'll talk about it later. You know, like Bob Clouser Marvin: finally has exactly the perfect hook that he wants for his Clouser Minnows and Popovics as well.

Marvin: And I know you're working on hooks with Blaine. But, you know, Marvin: for people that may not know, you know, what are some of the, Marvin: you know, like steel features, Marvin: hook point features that make your hooks different than, say, Marvin: like Daiichi's and Taimco's and other hooks that are out there just to kind Marvin: of help educate the consumer when they look and they just see a big wall of Marvin: hooks and they're like, holy cow.

Morten: Yeah, and there's a lot of hooks to choose from these days, to be honest. Morten: I don't think we ever had as many as we have now. Now, I think what characteristics, Morten: yeah, I think there's two ways of doing hooks, you can say. Morten: You can look the way the steel behaves. Morten: If you take a Japanese-made hook, if you take it and try to bend it out, you can't do that.

Morten: It's very, very, very strong. but it's maybe Morten: else maybe it'll become a little bit brittle as Morten: well our hooks will bend out that's what Morten: part of the design of it is how they work so our Morten: hooks that they might need some of them might break Morten: i'm not 100 sure percent sure about all the hooks but most Morten: of them will bend out and not break i think Morten: japanese hooks will probably break but not Morten: never bend out and i don't i can't say.

Morten: That one thing is better than the other i think Morten: a lot of people appreciate that they Morten: don't bend out and rather have them break if that Morten: happens it's very seldom happens it's not like that Morten: but that's i think it's two different ways of Morten: thinking of hooks and how they should perform so it's Morten: more like a i wouldn't call it a Morten: religion but i think it's it's a belief we believe in Morten: hooks that bends out not break and then

Morten: you have the other things the other thing is that if you Morten: look at a lot of the other designs a lot Morten: of hooks have a needle point like a Morten: very just just another very very very Morten: sharp when you have a needle point and even sharper than our hooks Morten: actually ours have it's maybe it's not it's Morten: very difficult to explain and just in words but Morten: if if you look at our hook if you look

Morten: at our points very close up you'll see they have like they're they are on a Morten: needle you know look like a needle but then right at the point they kind of Morten: you know become small what do you would you call that like more like a not as Morten: a needle but it continues all the time but it just like it gets a little it's. Marvin: Slightly rounded off at the point.

Morten: Right yeah slightly right rounded off and there's one thing about that yeah Morten: that's a good explanation i think what you can do with they're quite easy to shop, Morten: And where we have a needle point, if the needle point break, Morten: it is very difficult to get them super sharp again. You can always sharpen our hooks. Morten: I don't know if people do that anymore, to be honest, or they just take out Morten: a new fly out of the box. So maybe we're kind of old school.

Morten: So hooks that bends out and at point you can sharpen. Morten: That's the two very important things on our hooks. And you'll see that on all our hook models. Morten: And I wouldn't say that they set us apart. You see other companies doing the same thing. Morten: But at least that's our features, you can call it. Marvin: Yeah. It's interesting you say that because I've got hunting knives that you Marvin: can't even really sharpen yourself anymore. The steel's so hard.

Marvin: Exactly. And so you literally have to mail them back, which seems kind of goofy to me, right? Marvin: Because as a kid, I used to get the stones out in the oil and sharpen the knives. Marvin: And now, they're like, really, the steel's too hard. So once you lose the edge, Marvin: you got to send it back to the factory.

Morten: Yeah. But I know a lot of, I've spoken to a lot of the Danish sea trout fishermen Morten: that, yeah, I have some of my best friends don't want to use A-Rex because they Morten: want the Gamakatsu's where they have the needle point. Morten: I say, why do you want that? Why don't you use our hooks? Well, I like the needle point. Morten: And, but I say, if the point is, you know, it's not sharp anymore, I just take a new fly.

Morten: Okay. It's just, you know, it's just a way, different, Morten: different ways of thinking yeah it's not like nothing is wrong here and nothing Morten: is right it's just what do you prefer as a as a fly fisherman a fly tire and Morten: we believe in our you know way of doing it but that's ours yeah. Marvin: Well it's funny people get worked Marvin: up and i was like gosh people it's just fishing it's not politics right.

Morten: Exactly yeah that's my yeah i totally agree with you on that marvin because, Morten: don't let it be become a religion i think we should have fun with what we're Morten: doing and And there's room for everybody here. Marvin: Yeah. And it's interesting, back to what we were talking about at the beginning Marvin: of the interview, I think a lot of anglers don't truly appreciate what the hook Marvin: brings to the fly in terms of, Marvin: weighting, gap, point, straight eye, bend eye.

Marvin: I know that's a super broad set of things to think about, but I think a lot Marvin: of anglers don't think about why we're doing what we do. Marvin: And I think that's one of the things that makes all that feedback you're getting Marvin: from these guys on the water.

Marvin: But just can you kind of give like a 30,000 foot view to anglers about like Marvin: how those things come together to kind of make the right hook for the right job? Morten: I think the easiest way to explain that is probably the conversation we had with Andreas Andersen. Morten: I think some tires are really, really nerdy about this. Morten: And I didn't, to be honest, when we started all this, I didn't know that. Morten: I was not thinking like a hook designer or anything like that.

Morten: I was just thinking as a fisherman. Morten: When speaking to Andreas Andersen, the way he was thinking about how the hook Morten: should look, how it should keel, Morten: how far back on the shank you could tie before the bend starts and all that. Morten: And it was down to millimeters sometimes. Morten: No, it's still not right. And the point, how far from the point to the barb Morten: and all that, how long that should be.

Morten: So being very meticulous about it he was designing the hooks like he would would Morten: for his flies and and for sure he was part of a whole i would say a generation Morten: almost of or maybe a group of new.

Morten: Uh streamer fly tires ross madden is one of them as well as a friend a friend Morten: of andreas as well so that group of people they had a very set mind on how the Morten: hook should look and they really really Morten: work so it's so when it Morten: comes to hook design seen from from from as you Morten: said from a 30 000 feet perspective it's it's Morten: a lot of small small things that make the changes and even how maybe you sometimes

Morten: you buy a hook and then you balance it i know a lot of tires do that these days Morten: then put lead underneath on the top uh and and a lot of things i would say the Morten: last 10 years I think fly tying has changed tremendously, Morten: probably more than ever. Morten: Blaine is one of them, you know, starting out, you know, just his way of thinking. Morten: That's one part of it, all the shanks and how the fly moves in the water.

Morten: So, you know, I would say maybe more than 10 years ago, but let's say 15 years Morten: ago, I think a lot of people looked at flies as flies, Morten: like, you know, like non-fishermen When things have a fly, they think about Morten: something flying in the air and all that. Morten: You know, it's a big difference now. I think there's no limits anymore.

Morten: I think you can do whatever you want. The discussion about is that a fly or Morten: not, I think that discussion has almost vanished. Morten: I don't know if you agree on that, but I don't see it anymore out there that Morten: much. You know, oh, that's not a fly. It's more like a spoon. No. Marvin: Yeah, I just come back to it's fishing and then I just go fish. Morten: Exactly. But I think a lot of people are like that now.

Morten: If you fish with a fly rod, it's fly fishing. What fly you use, Morten: well, that doesn't maybe really matter. Morten: And that has sparked a lot of creativity out there. Morten: And Blaine is a very good example of that. Morten: You know, thinking the way he does. And that's, and Ross Madden and Andrea Sanderson, Morten: when we talk kind of life, Morten: especially in the, and all the big predator flies for a muskie and pike and Morten: all that. It's a lot of development there.

Morten: And we borrow from the, from the spin industry as well. Cause sure we do. Marvin: Yeah. And I think it's interesting too, right? Marvin: Because, you know, we've seen how you had, And you now have the ability to produce Marvin: almost an infinite number of hook options cost effectively because you can design Marvin: them inexpensively. You don't need large runs anymore like you used to.

Marvin: And it takes the time where, you know, if you talk to Blaine, Marvin: he'll tell you about spending hours in his garage cutting shanks. Marvin: Yeah, right. And now you're like, Oh, Marvin: I want one that looks like this and someone's going to make it for you. Marvin: So then you can go spend time fishing and perfecting the fly and not playing Marvin: around with bolt cutters in your garage. Yeah.

Morten: And one important thing you said there is the minimum order quantities we need to do. Morten: The hooks are quite expensive still, I would say, compared to a lot of other things. Morten: But you can run them in relatively small quantities. Morten: And that's the important part of it. That's the reason why you can do all these crazy designs. Morten: And if people ask me, can you do a hook like that?

Morten: Yeah, we can. And if you think there's enough need for this, Morten: we can do it because the runs are not that big. Morten: Because for sure, if you do a super big run, the price per hook will be lower, but the, Morten: Then you'd probably never do that hook because you don't need a 100,000 in one Morten: size. Maybe you only need 20 or 30. And that's doable today. Morten: It wasn't like that like 10 years ago. I think that's huge competition as well, to be honest.

Marvin: Yeah. And so for folks that aren't familiar, tell us a little bit about kind of the design process.

Marvin: Because I think we were talking in Michigan and you kind of have a notebook Marvin: with pictures. and how you kind of move from that to bring a fly to market and Marvin: kind of what that process looks like and how long it takes. Morten: I think I could use a quite fresh example we have right now. Morten: The hook is not even on the market. That might be more fun to talk about, to be honest.

Morten: It started out with an idea that we wanted to remake, actually, Morten: some of the classic dry fly you can use for all the classic catch skill patterns. Morten: And that's not an easy task. You can stir up a lot of people. Morten: So you need to talk to the right people. Morten: And that's where it all starts and put them together. In this case, Morten: it was one from the US, one from Europe and one from the UK and one from Denmark.

Morten: And they sat together and kind of discussed how should that hook look like. Morten: And a lot of these three guys know a lot about the history.

Morten: They have the old hooks from the 1910 and Morten: 1890 or whatever and they look at that Morten: oh and even back then there was no one right design Morten: that's what it just the perception of how that hook should look like then gradually Morten: they come up with something that okay it should look like this then we do the Morten: drawings send them to the factory make let them make a sample so they can have

Morten: a look at it and try to tie on it, which is very important when it comes to classic looking, Morten: hooks for classic looking flies. Morten: They need to tie it as well. So it's. Morten: And that's not even on the market yet. Then they decide, okay, Morten: this is the right design. Then we do the ordering. Morten: And then we'll probably have the hooks within three months or something like

Morten: that. So from the start to the finished hook, this will take, Morten: you know, until the hook is on the market, it would probably take at least a Morten: year from the first idea. Morten: Sometimes we can do it much faster if we have a very clear picture of what that hook should look like. Morten: Then we can probably do it in six months or something like that. Morten: But normally it's longer. Marvin: Yeah, and I know you relatively recently, you've got specialty hooks.

Marvin: We're talking about Bob Klauser and Bob Popovics. How is that design process different? Marvin: Is it easier because they have very, very specific ideas of what they want, Marvin: and so you don't have to iterate the design process as much? Morten: No, true. They have a very clear picture, because that's their, Morten: both the Bob's and both the Bob's case, they have a very, very clear. Morten: They've been doing the flies and the tying for so many years.

Morten: So that's very, very easy. But even just to talk about, I think Klaus was very Morten: easy because his flies have been out there for so many years. Morten: I think in Popovic's case, he always felt that he didn't have exactly the right hook. Morten: So there we had to do some small changes, especially on the size of the hook eye.

Morten: He wanted a slightly bigger than normal because Morten: he wanted to be able to use a wire and things Morten: like that and maybe a thicker leader and we didn't think Morten: about that that was bob's input and we Morten: made those small changes and that's because it's not Morten: a you know a normal thing to do for the hook manufacturer you Morten: need to let them know and how to make that hook bigger and Morten: all that so it it took a little bit longer time with

Morten: his hook design but still it was it Morten: was pretty easy because he had some of Morten: the same because he's the father of many of these very all the big streamers Morten: he had the same idea about having a you know a long shank where you have a when Morten: the when they from shank to the bend it come quite abruptly so he has a lot Morten: of space to tie on and that's the same like Morten: Andreas had on his stream of flies, inspired by Bob, for sure.

Morten: So everybody's kind of looking at what he has been doing. Morten: So now Bob was, Popovich was easy as well. Morten: It just, we don't, we just, for us, when we work with people like Klaus and Morten: Popovich, it's very, very important for us that we hit it right. Morten: Because the worst thing that could happen is that we make a hook and they really Morten: don't like it. That would be awful. Marvin: Yeah, that would be very, very, very bad. Yeah, very unfortunate.

Marvin: Do you have any other kind of upcoming product releases you can share with us? Morten: Apart from the couple of classic fly hooks and hopefully the hook with Blaine, Morten: when we get time to sit down and do that one, that's the three hooks we're working on right now. Morten: And to be honest, we haven't been working on Blaine's hooks yet. Morten: We've just been talking about it. But hopefully it will play out.

Marvin: Yeah, it's interesting too because I've watched your hooks through the years.

Marvin: And doing time classes and things and it's interesting to see that you kind Marvin: of almost have an inverted product development uh catalog where you did specialty Marvin: hooks first and now you're building out the more traditional hooks.

Morten: Right yeah yeah um i think that came out of the whole idea in the beginning Morten: that we needed to fill some gaps and uh and that that we just kept doing that Morten: in the beginning and then as you said eventually we got around to do the the Morten: hooks everybody needs as well. Morten: But I think we maybe got known for doing the goofy stuff.

Marvin: But I would say one of the great things, and I think Daiichi has this too, Marvin: is if you go to your website, you've got the chart so that people can go and Marvin: see, oh, well, I like to tie on a TMCO 100. Marvin: What's the analog AREX hook, right? Marvin: And that's super helpful. I mean, like you said, they're all still different. Marvin: Like the wire gauge may be different. The gap might be different, Marvin: but it's always helpful.

Marvin: Kind of back to what we started about at the beginning, people are like, well i don't have Marvin: a tmc 100 and i was like well do you have a daichi Marvin: whatever and they're like oh i was like it works like what are you looking for Marvin: long shank you know thin wire hook um so i think that's a great thing for people Marvin: to to check out and um you know morton is there anything else you want to share

Marvin: with our folks before i let you go and uh wrap up your work day and go have dinner. Morten: Well i would say one thing and that that's actually very important for me to say it's it's, Morten: Even though I've been in this industry, as you said, or maybe I said, Morten: for almost 40 years, I really still enjoy every day. Morten: It's amazing still to meet people out there like we did in Ypsilanti a couple of months back. Morten: It's just meet tires, meet fly fishermen.

Morten: And I think it will never grow old. Morten: I've never been in this industry to be either rich or make a lot of money. Morten: It's a lifestyle for me. And I think that's, I'm not the only one in this industry who feels like this. Morten: I think a lot of people, like Blaine is one of them as well. Morten: And I know a lot of people, they're in this because they really, Morten: really like fly fishing and love fly fishing and fly tying.

Morten: And that's, I really hope the new one, young ones coming into the industry are thinking like this. Morten: For sure, you need to make a living. You need to put food on the table and provide Morten: for your family. But at the end of the day, it's all about the passion for what we are doing. Morten: That's the thing I'm saying.

Marvin: Yeah, it's interesting you say that because I always say that I think the fly Marvin: fishing community is one of the most generous communities in the sporting world. Morten: Yeah, I agree.

Morten: Sharing is a big thing and i even on social media i always get like you know if you look at, Morten: instagram for example where you see a lot of you know tires sharing the the Morten: flies and all that it's almost never any politics in there it's always about Morten: the the hobby and it's almost like if you if you if you dare to write anything Morten: with politics regarding politics you you'll be, Morten: blame, but it's not a good thing to do. And I really, really enjoy that.

Morten: There's just still a few places where you actually just can share your love Morten: for something you really like to do instead of ending up in bad discussions Morten: about who's the best president or whatever. Morten: It's just fish and night flies. Marvin: What I would say is I know you're a very accomplished photographer and if you Marvin: look at your website And if you look at your YouTube channel and your social

Marvin: media, you have great content, right? It's really beautifully produced. Marvin: I think your tying videos in terms of helping people learn to tie, Marvin: like, you know, all the materials, everything's great. Marvin: You know, I think people should check them out. And I'll drop links to all that stuff in the show notes. Marvin: You know, I guess in the United States, I guess Hairline is your distributor here.

Marvin: So it's not like you have a lot of retail outlets. But I guess if you're not Marvin: in the States, go to your website and you've got all of your international dealers. Marvin: Um i would imagine um probably your social media channels and your website's Marvin: the best way to kind of learn more about the hooks oh.

Morten: Yeah the website is always updated on what we are doing and and maybe i would Morten: say maybe the strongest we have is is youtube and and and especially instagram Morten: because that's where i can play with the photographs as you said photography Morten: is my My other big passion, Morten: apart from fly fishing, I really enjoy doing that. Morten: I've photographed a lot of flies, I can tell you.

Marvin: Yeah, I was going to say you need another more expensive hobby like shotguns, right? Marvin: So you can get really expensive shotguns and then you'll have three really expensive Marvin: hobbies and maybe throw in sports cars and you'll be done. Marvin: But, you know, I'll drop links to all those. And I know, too, Marvin: you know, even though you're a Danish-based company, you've spent a lot of time Marvin: in the United States on the show circuit.

Marvin: So people can look forward to seeing you at the International Fly Tying Symposium. Marvin: I think you've done a lot of the fly fishing shows. Marvin: So if they're curious, you know, they'll be able to find you maybe in the hairline Marvin: booth next year or somewhere like that. Morten: We hope so. We haven't decided on next year, but I'm quite sure that we will be there. Morten: So, and I really enjoy that. It's always good to meet people.

Morten: I have all the respect for social media, but it doesn't beat meeting up in real life. Morten: That's what we should do even more often, to be honest. It's good. Marvin: Yeah, a hundred percent. Well, I appreciate you spending so much time with me, Marvin: and it's been a lot of fun, and I'm glad we had a chance to sit down and talk. Morten: My pleasure, Marvin. Thank you for having me. Marvin: Take care. Morten: Take care.

Intro: Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you. Intro: Again, if you like the podcast, please tell a friend, and please subscribe and Intro: leave us a rating or review in the podcatcher of your choice. Intro: Tight lines, everybody.