S6, Ep 34: Stories of Lee Wulff with Jack Dennis

Intro: Hey folks, it's Marvin Cash, the host of the Articulate Fly. Intro: On this episode, I'm joined by my friend Jack Dennis. I've been fortunate to Intro: get to know and spend time with Jack. Intro: He not only makes you a better fisherman, but a better person. Intro: On this episode, he generously shares his stories of his friendship with Lee Wolf. Intro: Jack is quite the storyteller, and I think you're really going to enjoy this

Intro: one. It's a great peek inside a special time in American fly fishing. Intro: But before we get to the interview, just a couple of housekeeping items. Intro: If you like the podcast, please tell a friend, and please subscribe and leave Intro: us a rating or review in the podcatcher of your choice. It really helps us out. Intro: And we're excited to partner with our friends at Jesse Brown's to bring the Intro: Chocolate Factory to Charlotte on May 4th.

Intro: Blaine will be teaching private tying classes, discussing predator and prey, Intro: and sharing his favorite rod, reel, and line combos. Intro: Stay tuned on social media for more details.

Intro: Now, on to our interview. Marvin: Well, Jack, welcome to the Articulate Fly. Jack: Like the name. Marvin: Thanks. I'm looking forward to our conversation. I really enjoy the fact we've Marvin: sort of become friends over the phone and kind of met through some fly fishing friends.

Marvin: And, you know, we've kind of kicked around this idea, you know, Marvin: you have so much knowledge of the sport and the history of the sport that it'd Marvin: be kind of interesting to bring you on periodically to kind of talk about, Marvin: you know, fly fishing legends. Marvin: And we thought we would start with Lee Wolfe. And, you know, Marvin: I guess, Jack, the first question is, when did you first meet Lee?

Jack: Well, it was interesting. I met him kind of by accident. The first time I feel Jack: like I really met him was my father, who never went to any games that I played, never went. Jack: The only thing he liked to do was go occasionally to the movies. Jack: And all of a sudden, he said, look, we're going to go see The Longest Day. Jack: And it did very few. I went fishing with him and all the things that dads do.

Jack: Do, but he was a test pilot before the war and then went through pretty rough flying during the war, Jack: and he never talked about it, so I got no idea until he died that he had been Jack: shot down during D-Day, and he was able to fly the plane back to England, Jack: and And so he wanted to see what it was like, as near as I could tell, Jack: to see The Longest Day. Now, what that means is they had shorts.

Jack: They had the cartoon, then they had shorts. There were all different kinds of Jack: shorts. But all of a sudden, there we were in a stream. We walked. Jack: And it was the short, and it was beautifully filmed, and he had a six-foot rod, Jack: and he caught this beautiful, probably close to 30 pounds, if you told me, Atlantic salmon. Jack: And he released it. Now, you've got to realize that was in the 50s.

Jack: And, you know, releasing fish just wasn't in the—I mean, you caught it unless it was too small. Jack: And, I mean, I was just fascinated. I said, right then, you know, Jack: my father said nothing about it, and he was more interested in, Jack: you know, the military part, what he flew over to see. Jack: So I had that in the back of the mind. This is what I want to do.

Jack: I don't want to fly airplanes like my father. I mean, I had a chance to go to Jack: the Air Academy, and he went to the very first Air Academy, and he pushed me Jack: on that vision of Lee Wolf landing that fish. Jack: Well, as it turned out, I had to get in the military one way or another with Jack: the Vietnam War going on in 66. Jack: I'm in college, and I wanted to keep on. They said, oh, join the reserves.

Jack: You'll be able to finish college, and then you can go and do your military service. Jack: Well, I joined, and six months later, they called the unit up for duty.

Jack: And i had made the friendship of Jack: randall kaufman who was a Jack: young kid that uh we kind Jack: of got to know each other we went in the Jack: wind rivers together anyway when i got out of the military i called him i said Jack: you know i i tried to work in california i was an artist uh in the military Jack: which was kind of an interesting fun job instead of going to the jungles of vietnam but uh, Jack: You know, I did my duty, then I went into reserve.

Jack: But I said to Randall, go to Wyoming to see if we can start a business. Jack: He was 18, and I was 19, and we went to Jackson Hole in 1967, Jack: and the generation of fly fishing was having one of their first conclaves, Jack: their first really big conclave. Jack: And we decided, gosh, what do you got to do to learn? Jack: And he was in Southern California, and that was where the hotbed of these clubs

Jack: started. It spread through Oregon, actually started in Oregon, Jack: but California had the Jews. Jack: So all of a sudden, Jackson was a really small town there. Jack: This guy stopped me, and it was Bob Lewis who was given the task of getting Jack: the guides for the Federation because they needed guys to take the celebrities fishing. Jack: And I said, look, I don't have a boat. And he said, oh, I got a boat, Jack: will you? Old military ramp, that's what everybody used, or no drip boat.

Jack: And he said, I'll just show up. And so I told my friends I'm going to row the boat. Jack: So we all went to the big banquet barbecue they had, and the next day was taking fishing. Jack: And we got a chance to meet a guy in the shop. Jack: His name was Dennis Black, which would be one of the most influential fly fishermen ever.

Jack: And nobody knew who he was and Jack: only a few people did but he changed fly Jack: fishing forever because he started umpqua feather merchants in 1972 which randall Jack: and i helped him when he came to friends now okay what does this tie into lee Jack: wolf well the next day who do i get i don't know how they They picked him, Jack: but I got Lee Wolfe and, Jack: oh, gosh, terrible, but I remember the guy that was Arnold Gingrich, Jack: who was the publisher of Esquire magazine,

Jack: which was a huge magazine back then. And. Jack: Here was Lee Wolf. And all they did was needle each other. Jack: I thought, why don't they care about the fishing? They told jokes. Jack: They needled each other. Lee wasn't particularly a – he was a pretty serious guy. Jack: But he did like Arnold Schumer. And it was pretty sharp. Jack: And he just took it. And I thought, man, this guy's a cool dude. Jack: You know, being in the – at that time, everything was rad and cool.

Jack: And we love the baseball boys. Jack: I just hit it off with him. Jack: And what I liked is he was thought outside of the box, which I did too. Jack: We just hit it off. And he said, look, what are you doing? Jack: He says, I don't know. We're going to start a fly tying operation. Jack: He said, well, there's no money in that. Jack: He said, you're going to be guiding? I said, oh, yes, I'm going to guide. Jack: And I told him I just got out of the military. And he loved flying.

Jack: And, of course, we're in a flying family. Jack: We got into lots of conversations about flying. Jack: And he said, look, I'm going to be doing a show in Los Angeles. Jack: And I want you to come and do a little booth and see if you can drum up some business. Jack: And I'll get you introduced into the fly fishing world. It was in Los Angeles. Jack: And I went. And I got a chance. He was building us. He was working for Garcia at the time. Jack: The fin fishing world had the money.

Jack: And they were trying to get into the fly fishing business, using him as a way Jack: to do it. He was designing reels. Jack: And he designed a pretty good saltwater reel. I'd never gone saltwater fly fishing. Jack: And we set up a trip, got a chance to catch Bonita. And it kind of started right there. Jack: From that time, he had just married Joan, and she was absolutely wonderful. Jack: And they just kind of took me under their wing.

Jack: And I kind of thought that sports shows seemed to be the way. Jack: There was no fly fishing shows in those days. Jack: They would have fly fishing companies at the shows. They were big sports shows Jack: with boats and all the stuff. And, you know, I learned from him about how you do presentations. Jack: And it kind of right there, we just kind of started keeping in touch. Jack: One of the key things was Kurt Gowden.

Jack: And I met Kurt at a TU. Jack: I have to admit, I was really, I loved the American sport. And Kirk was from Wyoming. Jack: He was like a legendary sportscaster. Jack: And, you know, being from my part of the world, you couldn't help but love his love of fly fishing. Jack: And I thought, God, he needs to do a show in Jackson. That's where the beauty of Wyoming is. Jack: And I said, I'm going to go down there and meet him and talk him into an American Jack: sportsman show. I went, nobody.

Jack: You know, I just started flying flies, had a little shot. Jack: Randall had figured that Jackson was too cold. He left after four months when Jack: it got down to 40 below zero. He was back to California. Jack: But he ended up in Oregon meeting up with Dennis Black, and that friendship Jack: went on until Dennis died. Jack: But what happened there is I had to borrow all the money.

Jack: It was like $150 to fly to Denver. I didn't know anybody, but I got an invitation Jack: to go to the first Colorado Trout Unlimited meeting. Jack: They had all the board members except for Bing Crosby there. Jack: Kurt was there, all the people that started it. Jack: And I didn't know anybody in there. You couldn't even get near Kurt. Jack: There were so many people talking to him. Jack: This one guy grabbed me and said, look, you need to meet Kurt Gowdy.

Jack: He pushed to the crowd. He was an old friend of Kurt and said, Jack: I said, this is Jack Dennis. He's a guy in Jackson, Wyoming. Jack: Jack Dennis. Jack Dennis. Never heard of you. Jack: I said, you're a good guy? I said, I'm a good guy, and I grew up on the Snake River. Jack: He says, well, you know, I'm thinking about doing an American sports show there. Jack: He said, let's talk about it.

Jack: So Ernie Schwieber was giving a presentation. We were sitting down there, Jack: and, of course, he was a big gun back in those days. Jack: And it was funny because he said, look, I've heard enough of him. Jack: Let's go. And he gathered up his friends, and we went to a restaurant where Jack: Louis Armstrong was playing. Jack: And I was with the president of Frontier and one of the cores. Jack: It was like all the elite Denver was with him. They were supporting Trout Unlimited.

Jack: And he said, all he wanted to do was talk about fishing. Jack: And, I mean, I'm just like way out of my element. Jack: The good thing was that I'd been used to being around these kind of people because Jack: my father, after the war, flew for Warner Brothers, Jack: and he flew for the movie companies up and eventually for a baseball company. Jack: So I was around people, and I knew how to keep my mouth shut, Jack: which I don't know about now, but – and – and – and –.

Jack: Kurt, he just made it all happen. The governor of Wyoming, Stan Hathaway, had called. Jack: But the nice thing is my grandfather, I'd spent every summer, Jack: literally, of my life with my grandfather in Jackson. Jack: And he had a big ranch there, and he was well-known to the community. Jack: Our family had come from Philadelphia in 1916. Jack: They didn't live in Jackson, but they had ranches, and they were from a well-to-do family.

Jack: So my grandfather had a really good reputation, as did my dad in Jackson, Jack: and they got behind it, and we did this show. Jack: And it turned out to be the most viewed and most popular show in the American sports business. Jack: Very few of those shows ever would Jack: qualify for a rerun. It was rerun three times, one after a Super Bowl. Jack: And it was just a pleasure working with Curt.

Jack: And we had Phil Harris, who at that time was one of the neatest guys, Jack: part of the Rat Pack, and just funny. Jack: And it was an amazing time. Jack: So where does Lee fit into this? Well, all he would talk about is stories about Lee. Jack: And, of course, knowing that, and, you know, we didn't have cell phones in the Jack: day, and long distance was really expensive. Jack: But Curt, you know, he was doing well.

Jack: We'd get on the phone, and we'd have the double line and talk with Lee. Jack: And I get to see Lee during the sports shows. And, of course... Jack: Our friendship kept going, and when he was doing one of his books, Jack: Lee Wolf on Flies, he called me and said, look, would you mind if I take your Jack: concept for your book where you're holding the fly in front of your face?

Jack: I thought, why in the world would the best-known fly station in the world call Jack: me to ask permission to do that? Jack: I was, like, dumbfounded. and so it actually.

Jack: We were we were in Jackson when Kurt came every year he became like a second Jack: father to me I went to the funerals rode into the hearse with the body with Kurt and you know, Jack: but he was originally Lee had come to us I'll never forget this he called us Jack: and my wife knew where I was fishing and we were having cocktails, Jack: at this ranch that Jack: nobody could fish and Kurt was a bit Jack: of a Lee and Kurt were both they kind Jack: of stretched it and like this lady's rules

Jack: were that you had to use dry flies and Jack: Kurt loved mudflat minnow and so Jack: did Lee and so we were fishing there and Jack: we came in for cocktails tails were sitting there in this lady's house Jack: that she had uh charlie russell uh uh bronzes you know in a room look at there Jack: here's a two hundred thousand dollar bronze next to you and we call as you get Jack: old you gotta call some glee wolf.

Jack: And he was telling Kurt about, you need instant decision about what fly would Jack: you pick if you only had one fly. Jack: He said he was doing an article for Outdoor Live on if you only had one fly. Jack: And so Kurt immediately said, hey, I'll pick the muddler middle. Jack: Because I just caught three great big cutthroats on it.

Jack: And this lady's listening to and I thought, boy, Jack: I better not I couldn't remember whether I had enough guts to say I was using, Jack: because she looked at me and she looked at him and he was on the board of the. Jack: Buffalo Bill Museum and she was in awe of Kirk and I thought, Jack: man, is this guy going to get away with it? Jack: And so when I got on the phone, she had said nothing to him. Jack: And I said, mother mental.

Jack: At that time, it was because she'd used it as a dryer or wet. Jack: And I don't know what he said to her, but he got away with it. Jack: And so they're kind of where their lead was real interested And he always believed Jack: that man was a competitive animal, Jack: and he wrote a wonderful piece about the one-fly after he had a chance to experience it. Jack: And that was probably the thing. Jack: All of a sudden, and this would have been in the late 80s, we started the one-fly.

Jack: It took, you know, I mean, that's a whole program on how that started. Jack: But we made it happen. Jack: Thanks to Kurt. Kurt wanted to have a one-fly. Jack: After hearing that, he had gone to the Lander one-shot antelope hunt, Jack: which was a contest where you had one shell. Jack: And there were teams, and the teams would consist sometimes of astronauts.

Jack: Ray Rogers, all kinds of people that like to hunt, go out and do this, Jack: and it was ran by the Shoshone Indians, Jack: and a lot of gala to it, and Kurt said, you know, why don't we have a one-fly Jack: like that for fly fishing? Jack: Well, you got to realize, this was like 1972 or three, and... Jack: You know, that fly fishing gig honestly wasn't that big. That was the starting Jack: of the Fly Fisherman magazine.

Jack: And they said, well, you know, I don't care. We're starting it and we're doing it. Jack: And we would go out and I would hire one of our guides. Jack: And we'd go out and have our one fly. His first one was in Dillon, Montana. Jack: And we kind of made up, Kurt made up the rules. And he would announce it like Jack: he was doing the Super Bowl. Jack: And he could imitate anybody's voice. And he had a pretty good Lee Wolf voice, too.

Jack: He would go back to Lee and say, Lee, what do you think of this? Jack: And, hey, Howard Cosell, he had a perfect Howard Cosell. Jack: And he would mimic him. Jack: And people would go down the river and they'd hear that voice, which they knew. Jack: And they'd turn around and look at this. And it was great fun. Jack: And so one of the ones we were doing, and we do it every year. Jack: And I want to say this about 1976 and, uh, Kurt was saying, I'm going to beat you this time.

Jack: And I said, he'd never beat me. And I was competitive. He was competitive. Jack: And we went right down and we're getting to the landing and I'm up by one point. Jack: I need to catch a fish over 10 inches to beat him. Jack: And we're the guy do work for me to make sure I got it. He went down the right-hand Jack: bank where the takeout was as far as he could go. Nothing. Jack: And I'm reeling in and going across in the middle of the river.

Jack: The Snake River doesn't have fish in the middle of the river. Jack: They're along the banks. All of a sudden, I have a fish on. Jack: Trolling a fly. God, he just said, that's it. That's it. Jack: He was so mad. He said, look, you've got to do a contest so I can fish against somebody besides you. Jack: Well, we made it happen. It only took another 10 to 1986. Jack: Now, what this brings in talking about Lee Wolf.

Jack: During that time, I'm going all over the country to lecture, do programs. Jack: I did 40-something years of sports shows and TV shows and all kinds of things. Jack: And I would visit Lee and Joan up on their place on the Beaverkill. Jack: And it was really wonderful spending the time. Jack: And he and I would talk about the one fly and he said, man, I'd love to fish Jack: it. Joan said, so would I.

Jack: So in 1990, he was sent it up. Now that's four years into it. And Lee was so excited. Jack: And we remember sitting there with him on the porch, and his Piper Cub was on Jack: his little landing strip at his house. Jack: And he was right bumped up against Mike Rockefeller, who was the son of Lawrence, Jack: who really didn't spend much time in Jackson. Jack: And the Rockefeller family, my grandfather was a banker with Chase Manhattan Jack: and close friends with the Rockefellers.

Jack: So we kind of had a chance to be around them. Jack: And Lee was saying, you know, talking about it, he says, you know, Jack: I really would like to take you. I know you can fly, right? Jack: I said, yeah, but I'm way out of the license stage. That's all right. Jack: I'm going to go get my license. And you and I, in the spring, Jack: we're going to both fly, and we're going to go to my old lodge. Jack: And I said, I think it would be a fun thing to do with you.

Jack: And during that time, we started talking about, I'd come up with an idea of Jack: a fly, which I call the Parallel. Jack: We had been experimenting. We both thought, what a wonderful fly the wolf pattern Jack: is, but they just don't ride low enough on the surface to match mayflies. Jack: He had tied the original wolf, which was a white wolf, to imitate big mayflies of Canada. And... Jack: He had changed, actually, the Royal Whelp, as we know it, really got popularized by Dan Bailey.

Jack: And his next fly was the Gray Wolf. But we started talking about it, Jack: and I said, you know, I've been working on trying to get a parachute double wing. Jack: It would be more stable in the water. It would float close to the surface. Jack: It would be really good in slow-moving water. And that's where he said he used Jack: to cut the hackle off of a lot of his flies.

Jack: He would tie the flies on the bank with his hands. He'd have a little packet Jack: with him if he wanted to change flies. Jack: Lee would never say that he was an accomplished tier, but he knew how to tie Jack: what he needed, and he had enough fly tying friends he never lacked for flies.

Jack: So we we discussed this Jack: and he was working on plastic things pretty interesting Jack: he was taking plastic and taking like a Jack: squirrel stacked squirrel and sticking it in the plastic it would dry it would Jack: be permanent he'd wrap brown hackle around the uh the post he'd make a plastic Jack: post and he was working on trying to get a post up that would be a y if you can envision a y. Jack: And I said, the problem is I can't go, the threads just, you have to use so

Jack: much thread to do this. You've got to build posts, then you've got to divide the wing. Jack: The threads were just too big. A 6-0 thread just wouldn't do it, even to a 10 or a 12.

Jack: But it took the development of the threads from deep boy down to an 8-0 thread Jack: that we could take it smaller. That changed everything. thing. Jack: Unfortunately, you know, Lee didn't get to see the completed fly, but he knew about it. Jack: And he was so excited. I ended up writing several articles for books on the whole process.

Jack: And it was really funny because when Joan read it, she called me on the phone Jack: and said, you know, I learned things about Lee that I didn't know. Jack: Because he would tell me things about his life life that he, Jack: I don't think he would discuss with his wife. He said he was a terrible husband. Jack: Joan teamed him and all kinds of interesting things, but he was a thinker. Jack: And as Joan put it, he was a visionary. He was an idealist.

Jack: He was not a teacher. I'm the teacher. What he did was was inspire people. Jack: He inspired me to be a guide. He inspired me to get better at fly tying. Jack: He inspired me to learn to listen, to listen to his stories. Jack: And you know, at seven, almost 77, they come to me and then they go away. Jack: They come to me and go away. Jack: I remember him telling me about how he invented the fly vest. Jack: And I have this actually on film.

Jack: I have all kinds of archives of film on tape that are really interesting. But I have this one. Jack: He's talking about, Kurt Gowdy asked him, he said. Jack: Didn't you invent the fly vest? He says, oh, yeah. He says, it made sense. in. Jack: Pockets to hold your flies and everything. He said, well, how'd you do it? Jack: He says, well, I sewed it myself. Jack: I went to Macy's and bought a sewing machine. He said, the directions were on it.

Jack: He said, I just did it. It just made sense. And of course, that vest is in the museum, the Catskills. Jack: He was such an inspirer. He jumped in the river to prove that you could swim with waders on. Jack: If you knew what you were doing, you were safe in waders if you prepared them right. Jack: And he wasn't really, he told me, I wasn't really sure I was right, but I had to prove it.

Jack: And this was, I mean, he's the only fly fisherman, sorry Lefty Craig, Jack: but he was the only fly fisherman who had a whole page in Newsweek magazine of his death.

Jack: I have a fabulous us and you write as the new york times wrote in one page the Jack: life of woody and and so let's go back because there's so much to this one flight Jack: so we're at the one flight. Jack: And this is his first one. And we make sure, gosh, we've got to get some. Jack: So we make sure it gets filmed. And that, of course, is in the film that I posted on my YouTube channel. Jack: And I'm surprised how few people even were interested in it.

Jack: I go back and forth and wonder how many people are really interested in history. Jack: But I look at the group Classic Twyfishers, and they've got over 25,000 people Jack: that are interested, at least the history of the equipment and the flies and everything. Jack: But I often wonder, is this generation going to look back like we did?

Jack: I look back on Lee, and my favorite book was a book called Flies by J. Jack: Edson Leonard, which had letters Jack: from Dan Bailey and every one of the fly tires from the 20s and before. Jack: He published it in 1950 and it had fabulous letters about, he would ask them Jack: to explain this pattern. Jack: If you haven't seen this book, you really need to see it. There's a history Jack: of fly fishing in this book.

Jack: Steelhead fishlings on the west coast, names that are embraced and blazed in Jack: fly fishing history right there. Jack: And I really was lucky to have got to meet him at a speaking engagement and Jack: I asked him which was the best letter that was in there he said by far Bob Carmichael Jack: from your Jackson home and it's just beautiful rewritten. Jack: So we go back to Lee and the one he's fishing with Kurt Gowdy how could you Jack: not do it little as they would know although I,

Jack: And they just had great dialogue. We got as much as we could on it. Jack: And Chuck Yeager was there. Jack: And Lee was telling me about his 80th birthday, being on a carrier, how he loved flying. Jack: By the way, we were sitting there in his place, and he told me he wanted to Jack: fly with the plane, and he was going to get qualified in the spring so we could do this trip. Jack: We were sitting there and Joan served us some strawberries with sour cream and brown sugar.

Jack: And she brought in a glass of wine and we're sitting there looking down there. Jack: And he says, you know, the greatest things in life start with F. Jack: I said, yeah. He says, yeah, food, flying, fishing, and you can figure out what the other one is. Jack: Because we're keeping this a family program. Jack: I'll never forget that. And Joan goes, Lee, you're just, because she heard the Jack: last word. She said, you're awful.

Jack: And she says, well, can you do better? And she hugged him and said, no. Jack: Why do you think I married? Jack: It was just, going back to the one fly, I went through all the things he did. Jack: He sat down and talked with Chuck Yeager. Jack: And he was his hero. And he had talked about being able to have his birthday Jack: on the carrier and all the broke out with the MC. Jack: And he just told me he couldn't have had a better life.

Jack: At that point, Joan's wife, or mother, who lived to a long age like Joan has, had gotten sick. Jack: And she said, look, I've got to go back to New Jersey. Jack: Lee's going to the fly tackle dealer. I know you're going. Jack: And he said, can you take care of Lee's until I get back? Jack: And then take him, if I don't get back, I'm taking him to Denver to the tackle show. Jack: And so I spent two magical weeks with Lee fishing and talking that, Jack: you know, I treasure to this day.

Jack: And the funny thing, this is Oliver owned this fabulous spring creek. Jack: Actually, she had bought one of my family's properties. Jack: She found out that I was from the Nears family, which all of a sudden I could Jack: fish anytime on her property. Jack: And I bought Lee Wolf. And I remember she's at now, you got to realize she's Jack: in her eighties, he's 86 and she's watching him fish and he says, yeah, what a stud he is.

Jack: Yeah. It's just gal probably worth half a million. I mean, 500 million or more. Jack: He said, I said, I'm sorry, Emily, but he's taken. He says, I know, Jack: but by must be by a much younger woman.

Jack: So and by the way he got away with putting a nymph under his fly and she didn't say a word, Jack: and uh i put a nymph under the fly and one of her workmen told her and i got Jack: i got read the riot act for using a nymph on her property, Jack: just depends on who you are that's the way life is in the world indeed.

Marvin: Do you have any other kind of particularly memorable fishing trips you took with Lee? Jack: Well, you know, we did one on the South Fork. Jack: And when I had the chance with Lee and Kurt, I was not going to let this go by. Jack: Because Kurt said, I just got a feeling this is the last time Lee and I are going to see each other. Jack: And they both were anxious to film. And we just went filming. Jack: And I remember, you know, I'm in the building, I'm watching the whole thing.

Jack: And so a lot of mine was, oh, we'll get back to a memorable one. Jack: Sorry, at this age, they come to me and they flash fly. Jack: But anyway, he wanted to catch this one fish. And what he wanted to do, Jack: we sat there and the camera was going, how much of this do I film? Jack: I said, you know, just keep filming. We can always erase it. Jack: Thank God for video. and this fish is rising over there and he refused to change the fly.

Jack: He turned around to the guide, Gary Wilman, who was probably one of the best Jack: fishing guides I've ever had. Jack: We called him the predator. Jack: He was that kind of guy. And, Jack: Wayne tried all these different techniques. Finally, he pushed the fly and the Jack: fish took it. And this is after half an hour. Jack: And the guy who was just dumbfounded, the guy, he said, yes, Jack: all I had to do was figure it out. Because you can make fish.

Jack: And it was a good point. It was really a good point. Jack: And it changed this guy's life. line he learned how to be more disciplined and Jack: he said i would have never done that well the rest of his life he did that and Jack: in the other situation we're fishing a spring creek and uh jones there, Jack: and uh she notices i'm i'm fishing a two-way because you really like those light Jack: rods and i I said, gentlemen, they just land so soft on the water.

Jack: And casting is everything. And if you're going to spook fish, Jack: I learned that from starting out as a kid all by myself, fishing the hard water. Jack: Everybody said, why don't you go to the snake? You can catch all the fish you Jack: want on that. Why do you want to catch the hard fish? Jack: I'd go on my hands and knees. I'd get defeated.

Jack: But I knew exactly what you had to do. The lighter you could present the fly, Jack: presentation was everything, but in the casting makes the presentation. Jack: And I learned about that. And so she was talking about, I was telling her how Jack: the three weights were, you know, you can use a three weight anywhere in the world for trout, Jack: you know, unless you got to throw great big streamers, but for normal trout Jack: fishing. And she says, I really like that.

Jack: And Lee said, look, tell me how you both understand this. And tell me how you cast. Jack: A two or three-way i was like what i'm going to show you how to cast it she says yeah, Jack: you can always learn you don't have to be eight and five to stop learning and Jack: i i told them the attributes of it and and they said well he said i want your Jack: rod and he first the rest of the day with me. Jack: I think that was a two-weight at that time. Two-weight Scott.

Jack: That was memorable. Then we had the cameras and interviewing Joan and Lee about this. Jack: The most important thing I think I learned from him was the value of fly fishing Jack: and your wife to handle the other things that don't go right. Jack: And he talked about his divorces and how fishing may have caused that. Jack: And he said, every time I would have something that upset me, Jack: I could go away and fish and come back like it never happened.

Jack: And I think if your listeners there pretty much understand that. Jack: All it takes is, and Lee, like myself, liked to fish alone. Jack: And not that, you know, I do lots of boat fishing. I still row down the river. Jack: But nothing beats getting out on your own. Jack: I spent a bunch of time in New Zealand as a consultant. Jack: And by the way, Lee really wanted to go to New Zealand. Jack: And the one flight kind of helped that way because, you know,

Jack: he ended up passing away. And I feel so much responsible because he was qualifying for our trip. Jack: But we had his license since I didn't have one. Jack: I grew up in a family and knew how to fly. And he ended up having, Jack: John thought he made a mistake, but the instructor lived. Jack: What happened when he was coming in to land on final, the aorta bust and flooded Jack: his cavity and he died instantly. Jack: He fell on the stick in the front of the plane.

Jack: And he was six foot three or four, Jack: six three or something like that and he played basketball for Stanford and baseball Jack: for Stanford he was an incredibly good athlete. Jack: So he still weighed enough where the guy could pull it up and they had a dead stick landing, Jack: and luckily the guy survived and told Joan Joan, that he had passed his test, Jack: which made her feel good that he didn't make a mistake. Jack: And that was very touching when Joan called.

Jack: And I went back several times to help her try to figure out what to do with everything. Jack: It was a tough time for her. Jack: And I just think we have a very special relationship, Joan and I.

Jack: And it doesn't mean you have to talk all the time. you just feel it every time Jack: we'd be at a show together she'd stop and we'd go talk and she would let anybody Jack: interrupt us until we were done but. Jack: She said Lee mellowed a lot in his early age and I you know I remember him from Jack: the time I first met him to the time he died and there was a man in that 20 years, Jack: yeah a little over 20 years that really understood how life was.

Jack: And he let Kurt Gowdy, let a few people in to his life. Very similar to Ted Williams. Jack: Kurt compared the two of them as both legends in their sport. Jack: And not because of what they accomplished, accomplish, but how they felt and Jack: how they gained as close to perfection as you can. Jack: I remember Ted telling me, he says, think of baseball. Jack: You fail six times out of 10, and you're the greatest hitter that ever lived. You fail seven out of 10.

Jack: You're in the major leagues. You fail eight out of ten, you don't play. Jack: He says, life is about overcoming failures. Jack: And I think every time you lose a fish, every time you go, you learn something. Jack: And then eventually, you don't lose fish.

Jack: And, you know, one thing, Marvin, that I see nowadays, days and I don't know Jack: Lee how he would take it you know he would hold up, Jack: the Atlantic salmon and always release them in the early days of the camp they Jack: would keep the brook trout because they were so good eating in the lakes of Canada, Jack: you know his gift to the world you know his famous statement is a game fish Jack: is too valuable to catch only once,

Jack: and there's all kinds of different quotes from him that really, Jack: truly, the father of catch and release. Jack: And I have one of the articles that he did for Fly It, Run, Reel. Jack: He wrote for them when they first came out about he and a friend of mine both Jack: wrote articles together on the value of catch and release. Jack: And it had a profound effect.

Jack: And i think i i look uh Jack: now and and i think what what really Jack: happened with lee is he gave us the energy to make the one fly work he he gave Jack: valid he wrote the article giving it praise and it wasn't popular i got a lot Jack: of hate letters um about i was going to ruin fly fishing it become mike golf when you paid for it. Jack: And I just, I ended up coaching the world fly fishing team and being a part Jack: of it just so I could learn from a real contest.

Jack: And they don't kill fish and they have very strict regulations. Jack: And, you know, there's a competitive edge. But so far in the U.S., Jack: what I want is a wonder of these contests to raise money. Jack: We've raised over $20 million in stream improvement projects, Jack: all stream improvement projects. Jack: And you can go to the streams and see what the work has done.

Jack: But what we've done is inspired other clubs. I would say there's close to 200 Jack: contests throughout here in Canada, and none of them have cash prizes. Jack: They're there for fun. Jack: And I think I look back on that, And I wish more people would understand that. Jack: And it's about the flies. Jack: My God, what would you ever... Jack: The Chernobyl came from the guides of the Green River. I was there when it was designed and made.

Jack: And it was a fly that was pounded. And then you had the double bunny. Jack: And then you had the church tarantula. Jack: You had a whole series of flies that are in the fly fisheries repart. apart. Jack: And so there's so many advantages to what this has been to highlight flies and Jack: highlight becoming a better fisherman. Jack: And it's fun. Jack: I couldn't tell you who even won last year or who won because I don't care. Jack: I don't care who wins. Everybody having a good time.

Jack: We raised a lot of money with our bank and I think it was about $600,000 last Jack: year and I sit back and look at all these people and what fun they're having in fly fishing, Jack: when Kurt and I envision just Jack: a simple little contest has become honored now Jack: by the American Museum of Fly Fishing we're Jack: receiving their Heritage Award Jack: award um and on april 18th Jack: we get a preliminary award where we go to

Jack: the new york english club and to their in the american fly fishing museum fundraiser Jack: and we we do this wonderful film it's on the ifa for a film tour called tension Jack: and we've been allowed to show that at at the event, Jack: And so it's really fun to see, you know, getting the recognition. Jack: And you can't be any prouder. I feel like I've done about everything I could Jack: to try to, you know, I've touched a lot of things, Mark. Jack: It's been a wonderful float.

Marvin: Yeah, and it's amazing, too, because I've been, we were talking before we started Marvin: recording, Jack, you know, You've been incredibly busy putting some of your Marvin: kind of older, more original content on your YouTube channel. Jack: Yeah, it, you know, I just, I got into it too late. Jack: I didn't really understand. I didn't, you know, we were moving to North Carolina, Jack: and ended up having to start over after I went up to 5,000.

Jack: Didn't understand, you know, YouTube had kind of led all the people to believe Jack: that, especially in the fly fishing film, that they monitor what was copyrighted or not. Jack: And everybody threw in whatever they could find, you know, from old stuff. Jack: And all of a sudden, you know, DVD market had fell and all this stuff was out there. Jack: Everybody's putting my stuff on. I didn't, I'll tell you, I couldn't afford Jack: to copyright and they cost so much.

Jack: And the market was so small. I mean, you had a bestseller at 5,000 DVDs, Jack: Although I did the Cabela's and they sold, Jack: I mean, we sold 50,000 or more learning to fly fish. Jack: I think the whole total was about 200,000. Jack: You know, we also made them priced reasonably. And, you know, Jack: to pay for a DVD for $30, just, I mean, what's happened is YouTube has made it really good now. Jack: But it takes a lot of time. And, you know, I'm trying.

Jack: People find I saved a bunch of live Jack: fly time from seminars when I was the producer of the Fly Time Theater. Jack: And, you know, I show those. those. I've got a lot of stuff back there. Jack: It's just how much time do I devote to it for so little return other than the Jack: satisfaction at this age that somebody liked it. Marvin: Yeah. And I'll drop a link to your channel in the show notes, Marvin: Jack, so people can check it out.

Marvin: And I guess before I let you go, do you have, you know, maybe one thing you Marvin: can share about Lee that, you know, maybe folks generally don't know that got Marvin: to spend some time with him or kind of, you know, remember his public life. Jack: Oh, yeah. Well, you know, I watched him when he was older years when he was Jack: pushing these flexible flies at the sports shows.

Jack: And I thought to myself, God, here he is at this age pushing there in a booth, Jack: where he should be, you know, with a room talking about his life and everything.

Jack: But he was trying to promote, you know, uh well product joan really was the Jack: one joan had her fly casting school which is still going and she's still a part Jack: of and but they had the fly line and let me tell you his taper, Jack: his triangle taper has been matched and copied he sort of trademarked it but Jack: you know like a lot of things you shouldn't have done you know and i look back Jack: a hundred times and says boy i I should have done this or that.

Jack: But Lee was, you know, I thought, man, I'm not going to, I don't want to get to that. Jack: I don't want to be at a booth promoting something in my 80s. Jack: You know, I thought about, well, one of the things I can really do is go talk Jack: about creating a sports show. And they don't seem to be interested in it. Jack: I mean, I've never really, I've done it. I ran a sports show in Salt Lake City, Jack: a fly fishing show with another guy and I for about seven years.

Jack: And after the pandemic, I moved and it went on to other people. Jack: But I know how hard it is to produce that. Jack: But I just saw the mood that nobody seemed to care about it. Jack: And yet, you know, I find a few people that are still interested in it. Jack: But there was a time, I think, how important I had the picture of Lee time at a 28. Jack: I got it in my drawer right here. A 28 gray hackle peacock.

Jack: And in his hand, and I'm looking at it, and Yvon Chouinard is looking at it. I invited Yvon. Jack: I thought he could learn a lot from Lee. Jack: I've known Yvon since he was a climber in the Tetons. Jack: He was living in his car when he first got there, and I was a young guy moving Jack: the climbers back and forth after hours. Nobody wanted to stay there because Jack: the climbers' time frame was their own. Jack: And so I'd just go over there, park the boat, and fish.

Jack: And Yvonne would always ask me what I was doing. And he caught the fishing bug. Jack: And we've gone through our lives with watching Yvonne grow into what he is today. Jack: But he was so impressed. So he tied one for me and tied one for Yvonne. Jack: And I'm sure he has that. But his abilities, oh boy, Jack: I wish I could, you know, the way to put it in the man is a deep thinker who's always thinking.

Jack: And his personality went to the person that he was, he would show what he wanted Jack: to to the person asking the question. Jack: He had great respect that anybody that had risen in his field. Jack: And he would give them more time or anybody that's coming up. Jack: My guides loved it. He went out during that two weeks. He went out more with the guides. Jack: I was wrapping up one fly during that time. And the guides just loved him.

Jack: And he would give them a fly. I mean, each one of those guys had the flies. flies. Jack: And I think after he died, Joan sent me a fly, which is not to stay in my family. Jack: And it was his fly from the book, The Art of the Fly. Jack: And he said, this was Lee's most treasured fly. Jack: So I always felt that he kind of passed. Oh, and he loved my Royal Humpy. Jack: Oh, geez, he just loved it. He loved the Humpy, couldn't see it.

Jack: He was very abysmal. type of guy. He liked his drive slides so he could see them.

Jack: That's why he put the when he started out, of course, I don't know how many Jack: people know, but he started out with Bucktail. Jack: And Lee had this wonderful friendship with Dan Bailey. Jack: And Dan Bailey said, look, you got the wrong material. And well, Jack: that's not how you start off with Lee. Jack: But Dan convinced him. Jack: That he could show him how. And And he took care of Lee. I mean, Jack: they didn't have any kind of program like they have now.

Jack: That was developed by Umpqua, where you got paid for a pattern. Jack: A man I can't imagine, but he never had to worry about anything. Jack: Dan Bailey just took wonderful care. And I'm sure at the end of each year, he sent him a check. Jack: But he's the one that really developed the Wolf pattern into what they are, Jack: changing them over to what they called in those days, Kip-Tails. Jack: Nobody wanted to call it a cast tail impala tail that was always the best one in power like.

Jack: You know, and, uh, but he, uh, what, you know, that's amazing what you can gather Jack: from, uh, from people. Uh, he was simple. Jack: He didn't want to, I mean, he was more interested in the approach and fly fishing, what the fly was. Jack: He was interested in, in figuring out the situation. He liked to go one-on-one with the fish. Jack: I was able to film his last fish he caught in Wyoming. I thought for a long Jack: time it was the last fish he ever caught.

Jack: But he did do a piece just like three months before he died. Jack: So when he was in the one fly, that was about four years or four months, Jack: I mean, before he died. He died in February. Jack: But he did a deal on his home river, which is wonderful. But you could tell Jack: he had lost his energy since the one fall. It's just like you're looking at two different people. Jack: For whatever time, you could just see that, the difference in the two people in a few months.

Jack: But he did it. He only caught some fish. But it was real fishing adventure when we had him. Jack: And we just let him go out on his own. Jack: And we filmed it. And we just watched everything. And I got this all on film. Jack: And eventually, I will get to where we put it on YouTube. Jack: I just... Jack: Kurt interviewed him about his life. And it was very... Jack: I don't know how to put the word, but not melodramatic, but sad in some ways, Jack: the way he viewed himself.

Jack: He viewed Kurt as a much bigger, you're famous and everything, Jack: you're better at your job than I was. Jack: And Kurt's trying to tell him, no, you're not. Jack: You rose to the top of the field.

Jack: But you know i could see the reluctance and Jack: lee said you know you just there is no such thing as Jack: a professional fly fishing and they can make any money he Jack: says the lucky i had a career in advertising and they had people that were very Jack: good to they did he said i i couldn't have lived on this and and i think he Jack: had a lot of the skepticism about where fly fishing was going to go and.

Jack: You know it has gotten bigger and I'm sure you you know if you look at all the Jack: rod companies are all owned by except for St. Jack: Croix they're owned by well-to-do people that can afford to be in it you know Jack: you look at Orvis the Orvis family and you know the rod guarantees I always Jack: saw it when they put those lifetime warranties that was going to drive up the price, Jack: and it made the company virtually unsellable,

Jack: And, you know, the same people pretty much still own it. Jack: Thomas and Thomas went to several owners and everything, but it's kind of where Jack: things are. And I see Lee saw that. Jack: And he talked, you know, and I looked at his boxes, Jack: and I have to laugh because three of the best fishermen I know have old boxes Jack: and they just throw all the flies in. Jack: Randall Coffin is the most organized writer I've ever been around.

Jack: And I open up his fly box. I say, hey, get out of catter. Jack: He goes through about three boxes to find it. It's not even separated out. Jack: And I realized, you know, I'm that way too, but I have to do it to make it look good. Jack: People see that, they'll look at me and say, what are you doing? Jack: But Lee was that way too. Jack: He wasn't super organized, except for his thinking.

Jack: I know, here's the thing, as Joan said, he was the ultimate predator, Jack: especially in the ocean fishing. Jack: And he says, look, ocean fishing is easy, you just got to find, Jack: once you find them, they're not hard to catch, but you got to find them and that's hard. Jack: And I asked him what kind of fishing you like the best. Jack: This is a great answer. He said, whatever I'm fishing for, it's the best right then. Jack: And I thought, man, is that ever true?

Jack: Wherever I'm at, whether it's bone fishing or in South America or where, Jack: in New Zealand especially. Jack: New Zealand was where I learned the most about fly fishing. Jack: And Australia, wherever it may depend, it's great. Jack: And one of the things he said, you know, you can build any number of golf courses.

Jack: You know, golf will get it, but you can't build new trout streams. Jack: And the only thing we've got is to protect them is catching release. Jack: That's on this tape. And that just really hit. And that made me, Jack: now that was filmed in 1990. Jack: And he died in 91. And that has stuck with me and stuck with me when we turned Jack: the OneFly into an organization to rebuild strings. It hit.

Jack: I can tell you right now, fishing is better on the Snake River and pretty much Jack: all the rivers I fish than when I was a guide in the 60s. Jack: Fishing is better. Better on the green. It's better. I mean, Jack: go on South Fork, Lake River. Jack: I can't speak for Montana because I didn't fish it when I was really young. Yellowstone is better. Jack: The Yellowstone Lake's coming back with great big cutthroats that can survive the Mackinac. Jack: They learn to evolve into big fish.

Jack: You do believe 11-pound cutthroats caught last year on a fly. Jack: And Yellowstone Lake, the lake that the Mackinac run. Marvin: Yeah, it's one of my favorite places to fish. I love fishing the fire hole. Jack: Yeah, but think of Yellowstone Lake. There were hardly any fish left in the river. Jack: And they evolved. Of course, they reduced the mackerel population, which helped. Jack: But the spawning is limited. But it'll come back.

Jack: Nature has a way of doing this. And the nice thing about Yellowstone, Jack: just the way it is. But, you know, the big problem I see, and the fire hole Jack: hasn't changed one darn bit. Jack: You have a little bit of, the rivers do have a little bit of a problem with the buffalo. Jack: There's far more buffalo than historically there. Jack: And they have beaten down the bank, but, you know, that's part of nature. Jack: You know, the fish will survive.

Jack: No stream improvement in Nashville Park. Marvin: It's interesting though I know the stream banks have recovered since they reintroduced Marvin: the wolves too that's kind of helped kind of move the elk and the bison kind of off a little bit.

Jack: I don't even want to get into that there's some hard feelings on that that's Jack: one thing in Jackson that I've learned my wife was an ER nurse there so she's Jack: got plenty of bear incidents I just, Jack: And it is so much like everything, a political move. Jack: I just don't really get an opinion on it, other than there's too many buffalo in Yellowstone Park. Jack: But, you know, the tourists like them. The park tries to do the best they can with it.

Jack: But there is negative effects. effects, you know, none of those streams flowing Jack: into the Yellowstone can reproduce fish like they used to because they've been all trampled down. Jack: And the buffalo wouldn't have been there if a white man hadn't run them in there. Jack: So you know, where do you go? Jack: But, you know, I, you know, getting back with Lee is that he saw like a lot Jack: of people don't remember, you know, trap fishing was really threatened in the 1890s in New York.

Jack: They had pretty much killed all the, the fish that ran up into the rivers and, Jack: you know, so that it came real, you know, their answer was to have a private Jack: club, redo the streams, you know, and monitor the fishing. Jack: And Lee was a product of that, understanding that not only catch and release, Jack: but trying to undo the damage that was done in the sake of ignorance. Jack: You know, how much do you value fly fishing?

Jack: You know, what do you put as a value when you look at the people that have done it? Jack: You know, from the Bush family, you know, really, really got to be interested Jack: in fly fishing to Dick Cheney, who would rather do anything. Jack: I asked him, what would his last trip be? He only had one trip. He says, I got it. Jack: Go to Canada on a steelhead stream all by myself. Jack: I want it snowing. I don't care if I catch a fish.

Jack: That's my last trip of my life. And he said, now you've got to do your last trip of life. Jack: And that was going out at 6.30 at night and spending all night fishing a crane fly hatch. Jack: That was my last trip. Both said we had to do our last trip before we knew we were going to die. Jack: And that was kind of Lee. I mean... Jack: The best time we talked with Lee was when we were eating lunch.

Jack: And he did Kurt and I. And they'd start talking about their old days filming and laughing. Jack: And he told one story. This is a good one. Jack: They were filming in Canada. And Lee had this idea of how he was going to do this segment.

Jack: And he wanted to have it. and during the American Sportsman they would let independent Jack: people Kurt would become the producer, Lee would become the producer, Jack: and they would, you know, they would set it up hire the cameramen and deliver Jack: the final product to ABC to be on the show, Jack: and so they were filming and he said, what I want is to have you Kurt with the Jack: rod underneath your hand, flies

Jack: out in the water and you're lighting the cigar back then, that was okay.

Jack: And this was during the time of the day when there was no fishing, middle of the day, Jack: and so what Lee would do and he always looked to cut money, Kirk didn't cut, Jack: he just paid the best to get the best photographers, but Lee was a cheapskate Jack: and he would hire a French Canadian cameraman, which he could get for, Jack: very cheap, now realize you're using and 35-millimeter film, Jack: which is when edited back then was $1,000 a minute.

Jack: So if you had a 23-minute show, just in that fee is going to be $46,000. Jack: That's a lot of money back then. Jack: And so you didn't waste it. Jack: So Lee's idea was to get a big daredevil without the hook on it, Jack: cast it out, and get the big brook trout to chase it in. Jack: And they would take flies on the surface real easily. Jack: So we'd do that. The fish would come in and send it up. The fish wouldn't take the fly.

Jack: It just went on and on. And Lee was very devoted on doing this. Jack: He'd look up and see the camera, and they're standing there. Jack: What they needed to do is once they brought the daredevil in, Jack: they would then hit the camera and film that. Jack: Then you'd build it afterwards. And how you did the old shows with film is you Jack: caught the fish, then you acted out everything before it. Jack: Now, of course, you can film everything because video doesn't cost anything.

Jack: So he's doing that and doing that. Finally, the fish takes a flight. Jack: Kurt throws a rod in the air. Jack: The cigar goes everywhere. He goes, oh, we got it. I've been trying for years to get that. Jack: He turns around, and there's no cameraman there. Jack: He yells, did you get it? There's one guy standing there. I said, get what? Jack: Lee went right up there and just decked the guy.

Jack: So that was another part of it he had a quick temper, Jack: you gotta take the good with the bad here always said this is how you evaluate Jack: a friend somebody you want to have a friendship with like a sports game you Jack: add up all the good things, Jack: and you got your score then you add up all the bad things and you got your score Jack: the good things outweigh the bad things you got a friend And. Marvin: Yeah, that's a novel concept in this day and age, right?

Jack: Yeah, that's the way Kurt really helped me understand what it was to stay in your lane. Jack: You know, the saddest part of all of these guys, and I know what they mean now Jack: that I'm 77, is that nobody remembers you after a time. Jack: When you're in the middle of the battle and everybody knows you, Jack: then all of a sudden you start on a – I look at life like an airplane. Jack: You take off. My family was involved in aviation.

Jack: You take off, and I got to be able to fly Boeing jets and simulators and all Jack: kinds of planes on my adventures, but not wanting to do it as a profession. Jack: But if you take off, that's what you do. Jack: You work your way through school, you're doing the college, you're doing everything. Jack: All of a sudden, you get married, you have kids, and the plane is in what we call cruisimatic. Jack: Going down, you back off the power, and you enjoy the ride.

Jack: When you get down, all of a sudden, you're going to have to land. Jack: You've got to bring back the power more, and you start to descend. Jack: And as you descend, it's each part of your life that all of a sudden you're on final. Jack: Out comes the gear, and you hope you make a nice off-landing die in bed.

Jack: Anywhere along that climb, that plane can crash. But that was my idea how life was. Jack: And, you know, everybody says live every day like your last. Jack: I mean, that's great. I just live every day like it's a day. Jack: And try to do as many things with friends as you can. Jack: And that's why people ask me, why did you still row the river at almost 77? Jack: I said, because that's what you do.

Jack: If I can do it, I'm going to do it as long as I can. Because I get to see beautiful Jack: skies and be away from people. Jack: Many times I'd float down and never see a person all day. Think about that. Jack: Never see a human all day. And you're in a boat. Can't beat it. Marvin: It's certainly one of the reasons why I like fishing the Rocky Mountain West, Marvin: although it's gotten a little harder and harder to find that solitude.

Marvin: But I always think, you know, floating in Montana, that, you know, Marvin: when you kind of get out a little bit and you don't see anybody, Marvin: that you're literally looking at the landscape exactly the way it was when Lewis and Clark came through. Jack: Well, that's what I love about Yellowstone. When you go to Yellowstone, Jack: that was the way it was all the way back.

Jack: Forget the roads to it. Just look out there where there's no roads or trails Jack: and say, and that's the way it was. Jack: And of course the wilderness areas, but you have to hike into the older you Jack: get. You just can't do that. You know, you can't do that. Jack: So what I like is you just learn to be create. Jack: The guides have to be there. My grandson's a guide at this, in the shop where Jack: I guide and where he guides.

Jack: I mean, I don't get where he got and they have to go out at seven 30 and They Jack: expect it to be back at 530 because all the restaurants close at nine o'clock, Jack: except for a brew pub closes at 10. Jack: So you go out at 10 or 11 and you fish dark and you don't see anybody. Jack: You have to be inventive to not see people. Now, that may not happen on a man Jack: or something like that, but you'll run into privates, but people want to be

Jack: off the river. They're afraid of the dark. Jack: They don't feel comfortable rowing, and they don't really. Jack: The rivers are long. Some of them are 24-mile stretch in one day. Jack: You have a motor, but if it gets too low, you don't have the motor.

Jack: You know it's it's being inventive I think you know that's what Lee would say Jack: that he he would just figure a way so he could be alone, Jack: but meant getting on private property he'd go to private property I don't like Jack: the deal with private property I had to get on about any private property but Jack: it comes with a price you the call up I need you to come out and get my buddy

Jack: a casting lesson or take him fishing it always happened when it was on your daughter's birthday Jack: thing and so i learned Jack: there's plenty of water out there and and Jack: uh it just private lamb came with there you know you know if you did it you're Jack: gonna and then that's rightly so nothing wrong with it just something i don't Jack: particularly want to do so i i think it's wonderful you know lee has gotten the, Jack: notoriety of being such an.

Jack: Adventurer. But you think about it right now. Jack: What is a building now which is so wonderful for the country is that we have Jack: the fishermen that has the money to travel to, Jack: Argentina and all over the world now, all these places and bring them money. Jack: Get people jobs. You know, when I started helping on the travel, Jack: there were just so few people. Jack: We were working in New Zealand on trying to figure out how I only had a 38% return rate.

Jack: And I got hired by the government near New Zealand and the tourist commission Jack: in Frontiers to try to figure out why. Well, it was really simple. Jack: They were bringing people from Alaska. Right. Jack: Were used to catching, you know, 50 fish a day, and they just didn't have the skill level. Jack: So what we did is we brought over, we worked an intricate plan over 10 years Jack: of bringing fly shop owners for free over there so they could see how difficult the fishing was.

Jack: And so when they booked a person, they knew they were sending them, they were qualified. Jack: And they targeted at places like Pennsylvania and California and Colorado, Jack: where they had conditions that were similar to New Zealand. Jack: And it was just wonderful to watch that grow from one lodge. Jack: When I started, there was one lodge. It really wasn't a lodge. Jack: It was called Hookah Lodge. Jack: And then it built up to where the government helped build lodges up to about six.

Jack: And now I think there's over 60. Jack: And the fishing has remained really good and it's mainly because the enlightened Jack: fly fishermen there they're locals, Jack: they have to be good to catch fish and they have ingrained the catch and release Jack: and it has become a very important industry for this small country of New Zealand Jack: and I see that all around the world, I see people, Jack: I get my texts from my friends in Tasmania.

Jack: I've worked with them, and they're all just saying, boy, we've got to get more cats in the leaves. Jack: We've got to look at the water levels. They're doing all the stuff that we're Jack: doing, and now they've got a problem. Jack: The mainland Australia is protecting the native fares. Jack: The conservation-minded people want the trout out of Australia. Jack: Yeah, that's a battle. When you Jack: consider about every prime minister of Australia has been a fly fisher.

Marvin: Yeah that's uh it's an interesting thing i mean the whole you know native wild Marvin: thing is an interesting discussion and you know jack i appreciate you spending Marvin: so much time and you know sharing a perspective on lee that you know most people Marvin: don't have and you know certainly look forward to you coming back and uh sharing Marvin: some more stories with us whatever.

Jack: You want to do it and i'm happy to talk about techniques and stuff too not just Jack: Just the things I've learned out of boats and things. Jack: Whatever you want. Just try to be relevant. Marvin: I appreciate that. Jack: I have a lot more stories. Marvin: Oh, I know you do. I'm excited to record them and bring them to the listeners. Intro: Well, folks, I hope you enjoyed that as much as we enjoyed bringing it to you.

Intro: And don't forget to check out The Chocolate Factory on May 4th at Jesse Brown's Intro: Outdoors. Tight lines, everybody.