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¶ Episode Introduction: Mastering Conversations
Brett McKay here in Another edition of the Art of Manliness podcast, whether sitting next to someone on the subway, mingling at a wedding or chatting around the water cooler. to make conversation and new friends abound in our lives. But how do you meet and talk to people without being awkward about it?
It's been over three days.
teaching people from all walks of life how to make small talk and socialize. His name is Don Gabor and he's the author Books including the one we're talking about today. Don then walks in the middle of the case. For small talk, why body language is so key in this area, and the best way to give a handshake. We then discuss how to break the ice with someone. made contact with how to handle.
and how to remember people's names after you meet them. Don then shares how to keep the conversation going by offering up and homing in on certain keywords, and we end our conversation with how to end a conversation. After the show's over, check out our show notes at AOM.is slash conversation.
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¶ Don Gabor's Social Skills Origin
All right, Don Gabor, welcome to the show.
Well I'm happy to be here.
So you are an expert on social skills. You made your career teaching individuals to be better conversationalists, how to network, how to make friends. I'm curious, how did you get started in the world of social skills?
I moved to New York in nineteen seventy-nine after having a a career in teaching and and I started teaching a a workshop called How to Start a Conversation and it became clear that a lot of people doing what I thought came natural. And so my career as a as a communications trainer and author really started way back when. I started with that workshop and it's just grown from there.
¶ Addressing Conversation Challenges and Anxiety
So where do you see uh people having the most trouble with starting and carrying on conversations?
I think uh there's some nuance to that question because in some situations some people are very good with their conversations and then the same person in a different situation can feel awkward and uncomfortable and just really, you know, ill at ease. And so by that, to give you an example, there are some professionals where people speak for a living, you know, uh come professional speakers, actors, attorneys, entertainers in in various, you know, uh fields.
But you take them out of that structured environment, and many of them feel very uncomfortable. So that example kind of illustrates that. people can feel comfortable speaking in one situation and uncomfortable in another, really based around what's expected of them and kind of their roles. And so What where I think people have the greatest difficulty is they're sometimes really not sure exactly how to go about
bridging the the gap between a situation where they're good at communicating and one that they're not so good. And this is one of the the ways that over the years as I've been teaching and writing about the subject one of the the ways that I figured out that it's really pretty easy for for people to master the skill is to identify what they're doing where they're communicating confidently and then
apply that with some adjustments to the situations where they they don't feel as confident. And then that way they can kind of master some of the skills or bring up some of the levels of of their skills that that they're good in in one situation and need some um improvement in another. So uh I think the another answer to your question, Brett, is that a lot of times
people I think are focusing in the wrong direction when they're trying to communicate with people. And and so a lot of times they're focusing inward and they're they're worried about what people are gonna think of them and if they're gonna say the right thing and and so on. And I mean, I'm not saying to not think about what you say, but If you worry too much and think inward too much, no matter what situation you're in, the communication's probably not going to be particularly effective.
That's like anything uh in life in sports, right? They tell sports psychologists tell golfers like, Don't think about what you're doing too much'cause then you'll just choke.
Yeah. I mean, that's sort of the the mentality I think of, you know, muscle memory and if you practice enough then then let your let your abilities just take over. And I I think that's that's a good point and it's a good analogy for communication skills. And that's one of the
things that I tell people, you know, who, you know, they say, Well, I'm kinda shy and I don't really like to talk to people that much and I'm not really sure what to say and, you know, I don't want to say the wrong thing. They say, look, There's a lot of opportunities to practice interacting with people where
You know, there's no risk. It's not like uh, you know, you're in a business meeting or you're in a job interview or you're out on a first date and and you really do want to make a good impression. I mean, there's no question about that. But there's a lot of opportunities that Almost everyone has during the course of a day or a week where you have opportunity to interact with people, practice eye contact, practice opening a conversation, starting it from scratch without any
you know, anybody initiating it or sending out a signal that says, you know, it's okay to talk. So w if you practice some of these the basic skills, and these are basic skills, some people just pick them up. naturally or they learn them from somebody, you know, in their home or a teacher or or friends. And other people, it doesn't come natural. I mean, some people are natural athletes and some people were natural musicians and so on, but they still have to learn.
the skills to support that natural ability. And I believe that communication skills are, you know, similar in that way. So practice like in a sports analogy, you know, applies to the conversation skills as well.
¶ Communication Evolution: Past to Present
So you've been at this since nineteen seventy nine. Uh the first book you published was in nineteen eighty three. It's how to start a conversation and make friends. I mean, has anything changed since then? I mean, you noticed new issues pop up that people are experiencing, new concerns people have about starting conversations, or are they pretty much the same?
It's a great question. And I'm asked that a lot. And over the years I have revised my book. In fact, it's gone through two complete revisions. And so the answer to your question is. Kind of twofold. Some things just don't change, you know, people's nature.
just don't change. And maybe they do over a couple of million years, but not within the last, you know, thirty years that I've been working at this uh subject. But what has changed, uh technology certainly has changed and that's made a big change. you know, and how people communicate. And I think people's expectations have changed and social norms have changed, what's acceptable and what's not.
So the what what I think people need to understand, and I think what what what I try to communicate when I'm doing a workshop or, you know, um doing an interview like this or or writing a book is that that You know, people really are I think are looking for a couple of things from one another. One is they want your attention. and they want your approval. And in in the article I read on your website, which I thought was very good about um narcissism in conversation,
People do want attention. The problem is if they only want their own attention and then they're talking too much, then that's not good, which is what your article, the article on your website points out. But We do seek other people's attention. We do seek other people's approval. So i in face to face communication.
Body language plays a very big role in in approval, smiling and eye contact and the tone of your voice and those kinds of you know, body language characteristics that are part of a conversation. But in online communication, you know, through texting and emails and and any kind of electronic communication. other than if it's a visual, body language is is absent and sometimes voice is absent. So People have to make adjustments for
For that.
Another thing that a big change between how we communicate now, and it's probably gonna change again in the next, you know, five minutes or five years or, you know, it's shorter, is that if we're having a conversation, you and I are in in a club or a a meeting, a business meeting, or just at a party, and we say something to one another. Somebody says something and, you know, it's kind of like off the wall, or maybe it's uh confusing.
our face will kind of go, hmm, you know, or you'll you'll make a little comment or some some signal will be sent that something didn't quite land right or maybe some confusion. And then we would correct it. Oh, well, maybe I let me rephrase that. But in in electronic communication, and I'm using that as the example of how things are different between, you know, when I started this.
on this path, this career path, and now, we really don't get that. So a lot of times what happens is you write something in an email or a text and maybe it's clear. More often it's not because of the speed that we're riding.
But it never we never have an opportunity to to see how the other person i is influenced by it or how they how they are receiving that message. So if it's unclear or inappropriate or any uh number of other maybe not effective kinds of uh the responses that we're looking for, we don't have an opportunity to to correct it.
So, you know, miscommunication. So I would say those are the a couple of things that, you know, the differences between now and then communication wise that that people need to be aware of.
Have you noticed people being more socially anxious lately than say maybe back in nineteen seventy nine or is it about the same?
I think people It's normal to to have some anxiety when you walk into a room full of people that you don't know. It's just normal. It's normal to have a little bit of anxiety going out on a date. That's there's always plenty of anxiety there. Or going for a job interview. Or or just Sometimes just going out with friends, people will feel a little bit uncomfortable. So anxiety is normal. Yeah, it's is it more now than it used to be?
You know, I I I'm not a psychologist or or or uh you know somebody who can really m you know, comment on on the anxiety of society. I know I'm feeling pretty anxious at times, but It's not so much about talking to people, it's just on what's going on in the world. And I think that's a a kind of a point that we also need to take into consideration when we're chatting with people. Some people just feel
comfortable walking into a room full of strangers or more comfortable. I'm I'm like that. I I it doesn't bother me that much, although I I have a little bit of anxiety. But I know other people are very anxious. So part of my goal
when I do talk to people in that kind of situation is to bring the anxiety level down. And the way I do that is by keeping the conversation light, not getting too deep into any particular topic right away and and try and, you know, make a little light uh humor of what's going on around, just so that people know it's not a big deal to have a conversation and That seems to work for me in most of the situations and it can work for most other people too.
¶ Becoming More Socially Approachable
Well, so let's talk about starting conversations. And the first thing you talk you recommend, um if you want more conversations to happen, is you have to make yourself more approachable. So what can people do to make themselves more approachable?
You know, this is one of the really important parts of communication. And what I like to observe when I'm out talking to people are who's who's sending the first signal to communicate. I'm gonna I'm the kind of person I usually will take the initiative just because I'm my nature is a little bit more outgoing. But not I don't always I'm not always the first one to send the signal. I'm looking for signals. And so to make yourself more approachable, you want to do two things.
You want to send a signal. And it we're talking now in a situation where people can see you. So it could be at the gym or at a social event or at work. Yeah, any of those or in the family situation. And those signals really are body language. So eye contact, smiling is the most important thing. Now not a big ear-to-ear grin like the cat who just ate the canary, but just a gentle, friendly smile. And and eye contact, I believe, is almost
precedes that. And if you watch people, and which I do, and we're walking down the street, it it's eye contact that seems to be the very beginning way. to send the signal that you're willing to communicate. So you wanna look for those signals and men I think that those signals are coming to them and they're missing them. Many men miss the signals that women send to them that say, please approach me. The women have been taught.
And this has changed. That's another thing that's changed over the years. Women are a little more assertive when it starts when it comes to approaching men. But many are still going to hang back, but they are going to send a signal, eye contact, a subtle smile. And men need to to look for that. But the men need to send the signals as well. So body language is really your first line of of approach to be more approachable. And I will say categorically,
Crossed arms send the opposite signal. So if your arms are crossed, folded in front of your chest. That says body language wise, and you may not feel this way, or people may not feel this way when they're doing this, but the the signal is clear, clearly interpreted as please. I'm really not interested. So unfold your arms and put them anywhere except in front of you, in front of your, you know, your folded across your chest and and you'll have a more approachable body language signal.
¶ Body Language: Signals and Handshakes
Yeah, you you talk about the this acronym softened. Which sort of help you kinda help you think about those things like smile. You talked about that. Open posture, no no closed arms. A forward lean, I guess indicate indicates you're interested. I think the T is touch. And E is eye contact. And then what's in is nod, right?
Right. Um, forward lean is something that I want to just touch on very briefly. And what that means is just to to lean a little bit towards the other person. And and what that shows is it shows that you're listening. So I go back to what people want from you. They want your attention. They want your approval. So if you show and then you're demonstrating physically that you're interested in what
then the person feels can feel more comfortable. However, if you move too close, then it could feel like you're encroaching on that that space. There's also cultural elements to to softening in body language, which people need to be aware of, men and women. Some cultures prefer a little distance, a little more distance between speakers. Some cultures prefer or are more comfortable with, you know, closer proximity. So you you want to be sensitive to that. But
Leaving
forward slightly shows it you're you're interested. And touch is another one of those elements that have a cultural application with shaking hands. And some cultures Shaking hands is is is part of the culture. Other cultures, shaking hands is is less comfortable, particularly between men and women. But here's what I encourage people to do. And I think this is pretty much standard practice in the United States and in most Western countries is to offer your hand in handshake.
And and shake hands web to web. And that that means to shake hands. There's a the place between your your forefinger and your thumb, that little area, is called the web of your hand, the web between those two digits. And and you want to kind of
focus on getting that other person's hand web to web. And the way you do that is just as you're g it just as your getting ready to make contact to shake hands and you've got eye contact with the person, just glance down at his or her hand and kind of aim your hand at the web of your hand at the web of the other person's hand, and chances are you will, you know, shake hands web to web.
Don't squeeze too hard, but don't don't, you know, don't do the bone crusher and don't do the wet, limp, wet fish kind of handshake either. So a moderate handshake, strength w handshake, grip, web to web. at the initiation of your conversation or very close to the beginning and at the end is isn't another important way to send uh signals that you're open
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¶ Effective Icebreakers and Showing Interest
Okay, so you've made contact with somebody. Now we're at the now this is the awkward part. How do you break the ice with someone to get the conversation going?
The easiest way to break the ice and in the most natural way to break the ice it is to focus on your surroundings, where you are, and and comment or ask a question on something that both of you can relate to in your immediate surroundings. So For example, if you're at a business event and you're networking and you're sitting down or you're waiting for a workshop to start or you're waiting for the waiting for the speaker to to begin.
Yeah, you turn to the other person and and you use a just a completely typical greeting. Good morning. How are you this morning? You can introduce yourself. In a business situation, you can introduce yourself right away. There's just no problem with that. And then ask, are you a member of this organization or uh have you seen the speaker?
before or you can say, this meeting is really I I've been a member of this organization for da-da-da. And, you know, the speaker I'm really looking forward. So you can make a comment or ask a question. And and introducing yourself early on. in any situation is usually best. In a business situation, you can do it right away. In a social situation, uh, where uh the rules are more flexible and the people are going to probably be coming from you know maybe different businesses or backgrounds or
you know, you're gonna have a little broader demographic of people there. You can still do the same thing, but you wanna do it in a little less um uh direct way. So If you're at a party, for example, and what I do when I go to a party is I'm I I gravitate towards the food.
table because I am a f I like food and I like the, you know, nibble and I like to cook and, you know, so it's a topic that I can I can, you know, talk about and many people feel the same way. So I will say, hmm, I wonder how this This um guacamole is have you tried it?
Or
And then I might say, you know, so we might talk a little bit, yeah, this is pretty good. And so by the way, you know, who do you know here at the party or how how did you do you know the host? Because most people, if they're invited to a party, they get invited by somebody, usually a host. And so that's another way. These are these are very typical and common ways to start the conversation. And I encourage you to use those kinds of icebreakers.
as opposed to, hey, you want to hear a funny joke about a or or try to make some, you know, f kind of corny, awkward comment that is supposed to be funny but falls flat. So using the situation that you're in, if you're in your neighborhood, you're walking around, maybe looking for a place to to eat, a restaurant, and you see you're looking at a menu in the window and somebody comes out of the restaurant.
say excuse me, you know, I'm curious, how was your meal? I've never eaten here before. So these are just I you know, I there's a hundred examples I could give of these kinds of ways to break the ice. The main point is Ask a question or make a comment. about something that the people that you're trying to communicate with can also react to and with good body language and a smile, you know, and a nice friendly tone to your voice, the conversation's probably going to at least get started.
No, I think that's great advice. Uh uh an example from my life where this is someone was started a conversation with me. because they were noticing the common environment. I was uh at my son's jujitsu practice or whatever, and I was sitting there and this woman was sitting next to me and I was reading the Nicomachean Ethics by Aristotle. And she looked over and she says, Are you reading that for fun or for school?
And I'm not in school anymore. I was like, well, I'm reading this for fun, believe it or not. And she's like, wow, that's interesting. Like, I've I've wanted to go back and read some of those things I read in college. And we had this conversation about. you know, great books you read in college and reading philosophy even after you're done with college. And it all started with that question that she noticed I was reading the Nicomakin Ethics at Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.
Well that's a perfect example. And that that example I think uh applies to T-shirts and tennis rackets and, you know, hats and different kinds of clothing. I mean, it it just it goes on and on. See, the once again, you know, what do people want? from you. They want your attention and they want your approval. So what that woman did in your case, Brett, was showed interest in what you were doing. You were reading a book. Now this was a convenient way for her to break the ice. It was very natural.
It was easy and you responded really, really well. It also gave her an opportunity to tell you that what she thought you were doing was was good. You know, like she said, she are you reading that for fun or for school? And and when you said, Well, you know, I'm not in school anymore for fun, and she said, Yeah, I think it's good to, you know, I want to go back and read some other things too. So this is a uh was a way of signalling a form of approval of about what you were doing.
It's so easy to do. And let me just point one more thing out about this whole topic and and why I think it's so important. And and one of the things that you had brought up uh I think uh in the beginning and and we might discuss a little bit more about how things have changed conversationally, is that
You know, in days past, maybe ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, maybe more, people had more opportunities to interact with one another. And today it seems like there's a a lot more people that are isolated. by choice and sometimes just by circumstance. But in your neighborhood where you live, there's so many opportunities to connect with people. But more often than not, people will just kind of
c walk down the street and go into their apartment or house or wherever they live or drive into their garage and go in through the, you know, back door and just kinda hide out. And and I think What I try to encourage people to do is to interact with the people in their neighborhood for a variety of reasons. Not in a in a forced way, but in a natural way. So if you see somebody walking down the street and you know that they live in your general area.
You send out a friendly signal. Start with hello, how are you today? And just start from there. And then after you see that person a couple of times. And say, you know, you live right down the street, is that right? Yeah. Oh hey, by the way, my name's Don. Or my name is you know, you introduce yourself and and it's important. What that does is it it it creates the beginning of a social interaction that can lead
to, you know, more friendship. It can lead to more contact within the neighborhood. And it can make you feel more comfortable where you live by knowing who's around you. And so Conversation has has a I think a major role to play. in in fighting the isolation that a lot of people complain about in their lives today. They they they feel lonely.
They think the internet is a is an option for them and it can be, but in my view, it really doesn't replace face to face communication and what you actually can get from that communication, the the connections that you make with people.
¶ Handling Rejection in Social Interactions
Well, let's say you reach out to someone, try the icebreaker, you ask something, notice something in the the common environment, you try to strike a conversation, but there's some rejection. They just they're they're obvious they're not interested. How do you handle that? So I think that's why I think it holds that's one thing that holds a lot of people back from even making the attempt. They're like, uh, what if they reject me and it becomes awkward?
Well, you're absolutely right. Rejection is a big fear that people have and nobody likes to get rejected. And and and people say, Well, I don't take it personally. Well, you know, we do take it personally. I take it personally. And I think that's just a normal reaction. However, if you let the fear of rejection prevent you from reaching out to people, then
You know, this this is where I say to people, I said, look, what what do you have to lose? If if you if you approach people the right way, chances are they're going to respond. Not everyone will. I mean, it just that's just the reality. And the reason you think, well, they're rejecting me, but then not that might not be the exact reason why people don't respond the way you think. And let me give you a couple of quick examples.
Sometimes people are just very fearful in general. And there are people who are afraid to interact with strangers for any number of reasons. And some of them are very good. And I certainly wouldn't wouldn't, you know, suggest for anybody to do anything that that makes them feel like they're in danger. So sometimes people just are told, don't talk to strangers and you're a stranger and I'm not going to talk to you. Okay. So that's their
their frame of mind, let's put it that way. Sometimes people actually don't hear you, or maybe there's some element that ha you have sent out a signal, you said hello, the person didn't respond, but that but you don't really realize that maybe they
they they didn't hear what you were saying, he or she didn't hear what you were saying, or maybe the language, there's a language issue, or more often than not, I don't know about where you live, but where I live, the ca half the people were walking down the street with earbuds. Which I don't think is a great thing because that's a signal that says, don't talk to me.
So take your earbuds out, folks, if you want to talk to people. Because earbuds are are telling other people that you're not available for conversation, which is of course just the opposite of what I encourage you to do. And finally. Sometimes it takes a couple times to approach people to let them feel that you're okay to talk to. But in the end, if somebody really doesn't want to talk to you.
And there are people that are just they they don't want to talk to anybody. Okay. So what are you gonna do? You're gonna twist their arm, you're gonna talk to me or I'll break your arm. You know, I mean you know it you just have to live with that. That's just the way some people are and move on and don't let that prevent you from reaching out to others.
¶ Techniques for Remembering Names
So during this initial icebreaking phase, you're probably gonna learn the person's name or hear it. How do you remember someone's name after they've introduced themselves? Because that's the problem that a lot of people have. Like in the middle of the conversation, they're like, oh man, I just forgot this guy's name. He told me five minutes ago.
Right. Well remembering names is a big part. Well, intro introductions. are a big part of conversation. And that's why I say do it early in the conversation. Here's here's and I didn't make this up, but I use these techniques and and I'm I'm not you know, perfect at it, that's for sure, but they do work in many most cases. First of all, don't say to yourself, oh, I'm never going to remember the person's name, so I'm not going to bother.
Think of the person as the most important person in the room or at that moment in your life and focus on the moment of introduction. Don't think about what you're going to say next. This is where most people the problem lies is they're they're not listening to what the person's saying when he or she says, you know, the pr his or her name. They're thinking, what are they going to say next?
So don't think about what you're gonna say next. Repeat the person's name. If the person has an unusual name or a name that is easy to misinterpret. Ask them to clarify it or spell the name. Or is it Marie or Maria? And so by repeating the name, you hear the name, you repeat the name, you're sending a couple of signals. One is you care enough To want to remember the person's name by repeating it so that makes the person feel good about the exchange, you you you
have more likelihood of remembering the name by repeating it because your brain has etched a little pathway up there. And then you actually hear yourself say the name. So you have three inputs. The person's saying his or her name, you repeating the name, and you hearing the name. So you've got three repetitions and memory and repetition come together. Now my other that's pretty standard stuff.
And another trick technique that I use is, and this works a good seven to ten out of ten times, about seventy to eighty percent, is I think of somebody I know with the same name. Now and the person that I think of, it could be a celebrity, it could be a sports figure, it could be a good friend, a member of the family. a kid that I grew up with and haven't seen in in twenty five years. Now the wh the reason that this works, I don't know. But for example, if I met you, Brett, at a party.
I might the first person that comes to my mind is a baseball player whose first name starts with Brett. So that's that's who I might think of. And I don't even know, you know, you may not look anything like this. If I meet somebody named uh Fred, I think of my father, because that was my father's name. If I meet somebody named Sophie,
I think of a cat that I used to have named Sophie. Now I don't tell the person, oh, I'm going to remember your name because I had a cat named Sophie. But this technique, it's it's strange, but it works because There are a lot of people with common first names and it doesn't always work, but
Oftentimes it does. And one last thing, you want to repeat the name in the conversation, not over and over and over, but once again, it's sending the signal. I remember your name. It's helping you remember it. But what happens when you don't remember the person's name? And this, you know, it just kind of flies by and you didn't grab it that s first two seconds. You say T how do you spell your name again? Tell me tell me your name one more time, please.
Again, it's it's kind of admitting that you didn't get it the first time, but it's okay, because they'll say, Well, it's it's it's done. And if somebody calls you by the wrong name You want to correct them. It's okay. That's a little bit uncomfortable. You know, sometimes people will You know, my name's Don, but they'll say Dan or Dom for short for Dominic. They said no, Don, like, you know, you know, Don Juan DeMarco or, you know, the dawn of time, but not spelled that way.
So those are techniques that I use that work. And they can work for just about anybody.
¶ Initiating Conversations with Strangers
So like a lot of times when you go to a party or an event. One thing that people do to sort of ease their way into conversations, they'll find someone they know and then start talking to them and then sort of use that person as a way to springboard into other conversations with people they don't know. But sometimes you go to an event or a party where you know no one. So what's the advice there to get a conversation going when you don't know anybody at the place you're at?
Well, that's a question that I get asked a lot. And the way I answer that is I do a little bit of homework and depending on the on the situation, if it's a business event, Usually I will go and make contact. I will introduce myself to the people who are responsible for the event.
More often than not, they're the ones that are going to be greeting at the door. So you're you're gonna have an opportunity to meet people right away if it's a more formal event. If it's a social event, there's uh somebody who presumably invited you to the to the event. Although not necessarily maybe you've signed up on a, you know, a an event site and it's a meetup and and you just really don't know anybody. So what I do is I look for a friendly face.
So I'm always looking for those signals of openness. And you can spot them. They're really easy to spot if you're looking. And those are the people that I will go up and approach and I mean I won't walk right up, but if I see a group of people talking, that's okay too. But I'm gonna observe and I'm gonna watch if there's two or three people chatting together and I'm gonna watch if there's a real tight
unit there. In other words, they're they're very close together. And there's no space for a person to join that conversation. I'll probably look for another either a individual or a group to join. Because that closed conversation, maybe they're talking about, you know, some personal topic or a work related, you know, you're gossiping or something. And I probably
might not want to get into that conversation anyway. So I'm looking for openness and then I just, you know, it's like going fishing. You gotta cast out and see if you get a bite. I'm gonna Go to where there are people. I will not go to where there are no people because Who are you gonna talk to if there's nobody there? You know. Plus, here's another tip. If you approach people and just start a simple conversation, not monopolizing the conversation, and this is a big problem.
But just interacting with questions and comments, balancing the conversation between talking and listening, and balance is the key here. What's more important or equally important is that the shy person who, you know, is kind of hanging back and looking to see who to talk to.
He or she will see you communicating with other people. He or she will see you moving from an individual to a group to another individual. So by You demonstrating your openness and your desire to communicate, other people see that. And they will feel more comfortable talking to you if you approach them or they might even feel more comfortable approaching you. So once again, when you walk into that room full of strangers, look
for people who want to communicate and simply say, you look like a friendly guy. How's it going tonight? Are you are you here for the workshop? Are you here for the food? Are you here for the music? Whatever it is.
Right. And I love the idea with the the group thing, you know, look for the open people who are showing that they're open to a new person and just say, hey, what brings you here?
Exactly.
Yeah.
People wanna interact. We're social animals. Now s granted some people are more open and than others and some people are more outgoing than others and that's all true. And and that's something that we all have to if you want to be a good communicator, you have to be able to communicate with all types of individuals. not just people who communicate like you do, which is usually the kind of people that we like to communicate with.
So when when you see people at a party, here's what I do at a party or at a networking event, and I'm with a group of people. talking, maybe two or three or something like that. And I'm I'm look I'm we're we're chatting about business or whatever the topic of the event is.
That's that's what we're chatting about in our group. But I'm also looking around outside the group and I'm looking to see if there's somebody who's looking at the group, sending that signal that said, you know, I I'd like to join, but I'm not really sure. I don't want to butt in because that's how a lot of people feel. And what I do is I I establish eye contact with that person, I smile, and then I take a very subtle step back from the group. To open up a little bit of a space.
And this is body language. It's all body language. I'm not saying, hey, pal, come on over. You know, the water's fine. But I'm sending the signal that says, you know, if you want to come on over and join us, you're welcome. And once again, more often than not. People pick up that signal and and uh they will then be heading into the conversation. And that's that's what we want to do, particularly at a networking event. That's what it's all about.
¶ Strategies for Sustaining Conversations
So let's say you start the conversation. How do you keep the conversation going once it started? Because you can you can there's only so much you can say about the weather or whatever. So how do you any idea, any tips on keeping the conversation going?
Oh sure. That's really easy. Although a lot of people think that's the hardest thing. Well, they think breaking the ice is the hardest thing. Keeping the conversation going is is easy if you're listening. If all you're doing is talking, then it's not really a conversation. It's a monologue and people are going to start, you know, looking for ways to exit. They're looking for the door.
So what you want to listen for are key words and key words are words that are nouns and verbs that you know, words that paint pictures of people doing things or or working on things, for example, projects or vacations or or like your book was a was a keyword, the title of your book, uh the anything that you can see a picture of that or relates to some kind of action that people are doing. And the reason that you want to listen for these things.
While you're talking about let's just say subject A, the event or the host of the party or the music or whatever it might be, you want to listen for the other words that are are being communicated in a conversation. And you want to drop those words from your side into the conversation that will lead to additional topics. For example, let's say you're going to an event. a music event. I'm going to to a jazz club tonight with my wife and we're gonna see a jazz group at a
at a club in in New York City. And we're going to be sitting down next to some people who we have no idea who they are. And, you know, we'll s probably say hello and, you know, before the show starts. We'll have a little bit of chat about the music. But what I'll also probably just drop into the conversation is that I met the piano player at who's in this group tonight at the gym.
And all of a sudden now, oh Jim, where where do you go to the gym? Well, we live in Brooklyn. See, so all these words that are part of the conversation about the music or the venue that we're at. which is in the basement of a barbecue restaurant. See all those words basement, restaurant, barbecue, Brooklyn, gym, these are all called key words. And they'll all be part Of a conversation. So then the way you change the topic is you say, you know, by the way, I heard you mention earlier that.
dot dot dot dot. And now the conversation just takes a little bit of a turn. And then you're on to topic B or topic C and you do the same thing. And pretty soon, what what it what are you looking for? Are you looking just to fill space and time or is there do you have another goal in in this conversation? And my view is I have an I have goals in my conversations. I want to find out.
I have anything in common with the person or people I'm talking to. Sometimes I do. More often than not, I do. Sometimes I don't, but usually I can find a topic of common interest. So by referring to a topic that you heard Earlier in a conversation. What are you doing? You're sending that signal again that said, I'm listening, I'm paying attention to what you told me because I remembered something that you said.
And I'm kind of curious about that particular topic. Now it could be a topic where you are you have a particular goal in mind. Maybe you're looking for um for a job, or maybe you're looking for gigs for more work, or maybe you're looking for a new place to live, or maybe you're looking for a great place to take a vacation.
These are all goals that most people have at one time or another. And by talking to people and listening, when these topics come up, you can then move your conversation to those topics. And then it says to the person, you know, I really appreciate what you've told me. So that's they're looking for your appreciation and your attention. And so you're fulfilling a variety of goals by just having a simple conversation.
So you recaps you're gonna you're gonna listen for keywords that the the person you're talking to is saying so you can go back to. But you're also at the same time sending out signals your own keywords so that you're g you're giving them a chance to like pick up on something.
Right. And by you referring to Some of the key words, while you dropping in some of the keywords into the conversation, it tells the other person. indirectly what you want to talk about. And this is very important. It goes back to one of your questions about, you know, when people feel uncomfortable in conversations because they don't know what to talk about. So If you've dropped in a key word about, I don't know, food or
gardening or whatever it might be, it's a pretty clear signal that that's a topic that you're probably willing to chat about a little bit. And maybe you have a common interest. Maybe you are a gardener too and then you're growing tomatoes like I am. And we might say, Well, how is your tomato crop this year? And so
This makes other people feel comfortable when they're talking to you. And you want to remember these details so that if you see the person again, then you can you can make a reference to them. Maybe you're not going to see them again. You know, more people say, oh, I'm never going to see this person again. So why should I bother with all this stuff? That's the biggest mistake you can make, as far as I'm concerned.
So this is the way to keep the conversation going. It's the way to feel that the conversation wasn't a waste of time and just making, you know, idle you know, filling space before an event. And it gives you practice on on how to interact with people in a way that makes them feel good about you and makes them feel good about themselves.
So that maybe the next time you meet, it's gonna be easier and you've established some of the the foundations of building some kind of a relationship, which is what all this can, you know, lead to and goes back to the, you know, the how many people feel isolated in their lives today.
¶ Navigating Unbalanced Conversations
What do you do if you're in a conversation where You're you're sending out those keywords at the person, but they're not asking any questions about you. Right. It's like and you're just asking all the questions. Yeah. It's not and it's not that they're rejecting you. They're they're actually enjoying talking. They'll answer any question you have for them, but they're like not
Taking part in that back and forth where they're not in asking you any questions. Any advice there? She just be like, Okay, well, this person's not gonna ask me any questions.
Well, this kind of goes back to the article on your on your website with the narcissism in conversations and and that is a problem. And people there's some people that are just you know, they're just so wrapped up in themselves that they just don't get it, you know, and and You can't I mean you can, but it's not gonna do you any good. You can't say, Go God, you you know, you could ask me a question of and I'd love to s you know, sh so you can't be that
Overt because that's a that's a chide, and people usually don't take kindly to being, you know, criticized that way. So what do you do? Well, you have a couple of choices. You can just grin and bear it, which sometimes you have to do with friends, because they're just some friends that you know, and I've got a couple of friends like that and You know, they just n very rarely ask what's going on and they just talk about this in you know their lives. But you can also
counter that by say, well look, you know, I got there's something I've been meaning to tell you about, you know, what I've been doing lately. And I and so then you can interject some topic into the conversation. But you've got to be able to talk a little bit about it and why it's important to you and you know w what it is that you know you you'd you want them to know about it.
And be careful about asking them an open ended question r in response to, you know, something that you're doing, because then the ball will just bounce back into their court. An open ended question is a question that that evokes a more detailed response. So you can say something like, Hey, have I told you about the new book I'm working on?
They say no, but I don't really care, which some people will say, you know, or or uh have you seen that new that new movie, you know, that's out, or have you heard this? So those are closed ended questions. that are gonna get a short answer. And then say, Wow, it's really pretty interesting. But I'm not gonna tell you, you know, the whole thing, but here's here's kind of what it's about. And they might say, What is it about? So You have to to counter that nonstop talker, you have to
Take the initiative and just share a little bit more information. And if the person interrupts you, say, wait a second, wait a second, I'm not quite finished yet. But don't make your story so long that the other person is gonna kind of begin to lose interest because they're not gonna have that much interest in what you have to say anyway, because they want to talk about themselves. That's just kind of the way some people are.
The reality is you can't change other people, but you can change your how you interact with them.
¶ Gracefully Exiting Conversations
All right. So we've successfully broken the ice. You've kept the conversation going by asking follow up questions, listening to those keywords. But now you got to exit the conversation. That's another people get awkward about that. It's like, well, it's gonna be awkward if I mess up the exit. So need any advice on exiting a conversation with Grace.
Sure. And and exiting the conversation is as important as as entering it. You want to do it the right way. If you the wrong way is to say, Oh, well, gotta go. Bye. Because then the person saying, oh, so how does that leave the other person? Well, I must have said the wrong thing. I'm boring. The other person, oh, he doesn't like me. Ah, forget it. I don't like him either.
So you don't want that to happen. So here's how you end the conversation the right way. First of all, you restate something that the person told you briefly, you restate it in a in a way that shows him or her that a you were listening and that you enjoyed the conversation. For example, I was really interesting hearing about your, you know, your new business. I think it's a great idea.
And I'd love to hear more about it. Maybe sometime, you know, the next meeting you can tell me how things are going. So what that's doing is by recapping the conversation briefly in a sentence or two. You're A, showing the person that you were listening, B that you appreciate what he or she said. And three, most importantly, to end the conversation is you're sending what's called a closing signal.
So people can accept that you can end the conversation. What they don't like is when it's ended abruptly. That's what leaves them uncomfortable. So that closing signal is gives that person saying, Oh, okay. I think this conversation is about to close. Then you use the person's name, say, you know.
Brett, it's really been a pleasure talking to you. I'm really glad we got a chance to meet. There's a couple of other people I want to say hello to before the speaker starts. So I'm I'm sure we'll get a chance to chat again soon. And you use the his or her name. And nice friendly, warm handshake, good eye contact, a smile, and off you go.
¶ Resources: Don Gabor's Work
Perfect. Well, Don, speaking of, Don, this has been a great conversation. Where can people go to learn more about the book and your work? Of niet de Bucs, maar je hebt multiple Bucs.
Yeah, I've I've written a bunch of books on the topic and you can see them all at my website, dongabor.com. That's d-o-n-g-a-b-o-r dot com.
And, you know, some workshops that I've done over the years. And also a lot of my books are published in foreign languages. And so they're all up on the website too. But you can also just go online to any of your online favorite online bookstores or Go to a real bookstore or a library and look for how to start a conversation and make friends, or just Google my name, Don Gabor, and you'll find me.
Well, Don Gabor, thanks for your time. It's been a pleasure. Thank you
Britt.
My guest name is Don Gabor. He's the author of several books, including the one we talked about today, How to Start a Conversation and Make It's available on Amazon.com and bookstores everywhere. Also check out more information about Don's work at his website, dongabor.com. Also check out our show notes at aom.is slash conversation, where you can find links to resources where you can delve deeper into this topic.
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