Brett McKay here and welcome to another edition of The Art of Manliness Podcast. Although they may call it different things and approach the attainment in different ways, many of the world's religions and philosophies have a similar goal, achieving a life of virtue, peace, and flourishing. In his new book, Seriously Happy, Ben Aldrich explains how anyone can
use the wisdom of ancient traditions to prove themselves and live the good life. Tanya the Show, Ben offers a thumbnail sketch of Buddhism, cynicism, Taoism, Stoicism, Epicurianism, and Aristillianism, along with practices and challenges inspired by these philosophies, including walking of banana, listening to a music performance without music, and taking a woo-way adventure that you can use to put ancient wisdom into action become a better and
happier man. After the show's over, check out our show notes at a-wim.is slash seriously happy. Alright, Ben Aldrich, welcome back to the show. Hey Brett, thank you so much for having me back. It's an honor to be here again. So we had you on the show a few years ago to talk about your book, How to Be Comfortable
with Being Uncomfortable. You got a new book out entitled Seriously Happy. So your previous book, How to Be Comfortable with Being Uncomfortable, you took the philosophy of Stoicism and tried to find actual practices that people can do to put the philosophy in action. And when I love we got this new book, even though it's geared towards teenagers, I got a lot out of it. You take a look at different philosophies from around the world and across time, and
also try to extract actual practices you can do to put that philosophy into action. Let's start off with the title of the book. It's called Seriously Happy. How are you defining happiness in this book? So yeah, we look at happiness from a slightly different perspective in this book. So I'm going back to Ancient Greece and the Ancient Greeks had a fantastic take on happiness. And this is really the core driving theme throughout the book. And the Greeks, the Ancient
Greeks had this concept called eudaemonia. And this is very different from happiness in the modern world. I find that when we look around, we see a conditional happiness in the modern world. I'll be happy when I'll be happy if, you know, when I get the new house, the new job, the new car, etc. And the Ancient Greeks had a different take. They wanted to achieve this thing called eudaemonia, which is a life that flows a flourishing life.
And it's a happiness that's built on essentially building character and learning how to thrive irrespective of what happens to us. And I think this is a great way to frame happiness because then it's not external. We don't need conditions to be happy because whatever happens, we are basically building character. So this is, I think, is a nice way of framing
happiness. And throughout the book, we look at different philosophies and how they can help build character and ultimately achieve this elusive, but very practical eudaemonia. Yeah, I like the idea of happiness being flourishing because I think a lot of times we think about happiness in the modern day. We think of happiness as a feeling. But feelings are fleeting. Emotions are fleeting. You can feel good one moment for just random reasons.
And then the next moment, you're just feeling like, ah, like crap. And you can't figure out why it is. And so you're constantly trying to chase that feeling. And as you said, because it's conditional upon your feelings, you're never feeling like a constant state of happiness. For sure. And I think trying to achieve that is unrealistic. We can't do that. We're going to be feeling lots of different things throughout our lives. We're
going to have high moments and low moments. And this is why the ancient Greeks had this concept of eudaemonia because it can apply to whatever situation we find ourselves in. And that's very liberating. And we're not trapped on just always chasing the next endorphin rush or dopamine hit. So it's very practical.
Yeah. I love that idea. And what's interesting too, if you look across different philosophies from around the world, they also, they had different names for it, but they, they were trying to seek the same thing with their philosophies, this sort of state of flourishing, where it's not contingent upon your emotions. It's contingent upon your character. So let's dig into some of these philosophies that can help us obtain this state of flourishing,
this eudaemonia, and you include Buddhism in your book. And Buddhism is a philosophy slash religion. What are the big ideas from Buddhism you highlight in the book? So yeah, this is a big one. And there's a lot, obviously, a lot to say about it, many different Buddhist sects as well and so many different types of Buddhism. But generalizing, there's this foundational concept in Buddhism called the Four Noble Truths. And what
it's highlighting is that life is going to be tough. So life is suffering. That's the first noble truth. The second one is that our mind is the reason that we suffer, the way that we frame things causes a lot of problems for us. The third truth is that we can change our relationship to suffering. So good news. We can actually do something about it. And
then the fourth noble truth is basically the method. And there's an eightfold path that Buddhism tends to recommend and it's things like meditating and living in the right way in alignment with moderation and various things. So that's the big take home. It's knowing the mind and the way that we frame things is the cause for a lot of problems in life. And of course, this is very top level and I know that, you know, the lots of
Buddhist scholars will have various different interpretations. But the Four Noble Truths are really at the centre of a lot of Buddhist thinking. And actually, a lot of modern psychology taps into this and uses this concept. And there's a fantastic book called Why Buddhism Is True by Robert Wright. And this really looks at the psychological side of Buddhism. And it talks about how these ideas can help us to develop clear thinking. So I think
really that's one of the beautiful things about Buddhism. It's a way of life that's incredibly practical. You mentioned there are different sex or schools of Buddhism. And one of them you talk about specifically in the book is Zen Buddhism. Tell us about Zen. So Zen is a lovely philosophy. Now, the little disclaimer before I start, I'm not a Zen Buddhist myself, but I'm a huge fan of these ideas and I deeply appreciate
and love what they have put out into the world. So Zen is a type of Buddhism and it's pretty much a Japanese aesthetic type of Buddhism. So when we go to Japan and we look at the Japanese temples, we see minimalism throughout the way that they've been constructed with the beautiful Zen gardens, which are often very empty with rocks placed in certain locations to help us relax and connect to deeper meanings as well. So it's a type of Buddhism.
And the ultimate goal of Zen is ultimately to help us achieve what they call it enlightenment. And that's always a tricky word because I think for a lot of people they can get caught up in what does that mean and how do we achieve it. But really it's being able to understand the nature of reality and understand the nature of our mind and to be able to work with that. So knowing that suffering is something that we all face, but we can transcend that through
training. And in Zen, one of the key things that they encourage is meditation and that's a great way to learn to control the mind in a very practical way. And it's a very helpful tool for a lot of people. And you don't need to be a Zen Buddhist to be able to use this idea. Well, I think a lot of people when they think of meditation, they think of sitting still on a mat and focusing on common your thoughts and breath. And that is a practice. But you
also recommend doing something called a moving meditation. What's a moving meditation? Yeah. So in some Zen temples, there's a type of meditation where everyone will walk around the room in like a conger line, really. And they're essentially trying to stay focused on the present moment, even though they're moving. And actually, this is done as a way to have some relief from long meditation sessions, because often you sat down for hours
and hours in these Zen temples. So actually being able to break away from that and move means that you're not going to be in physical pain. And actually, then you can focus on the present moment. So it's something that we can use throughout our lives when we're driving, when we're walking to the shops. If we can actually just pay attention to the
movement itself and the feeling of moving through space. And I think that can help us to connect to this idea, this powerful meditation, ultimately, which is going to help us to control our racing thoughts and overthinking minds. That reminds me of labyrinths. And that's a form of meditation. So you see these, some places, like I think some monasteries might have them, churches might have them. We actually
there's a labyrinth in a park just down the street from my house. And yeah, it's sort of this maze you kind of circle through and as you walk along this path, you're supposed to meditate. And I've done it before it is, it is surprisingly relaxing. Yeah. And I think the thing is always hot at first when you first try and not think about stuff is almost impossible to do that. But it's the repeated use of this skill helps
to sharpen the mind and you do get better at it. So that can convert to walking meditation or when you're just sort of present in your day to day life. But it also helps when you're actually practicing meditation and you're sat down and you're trying to focus on your breath or just trying to stay with the moment rather than get caught up in all this overthinking.
So it's a great one, but I think it does take a little bit of time to feel the benefits and to actually start getting that stillness with the mind because it's, you know, our minds are so overactive. Another practice you recommend inspired by Zen. You call it the 433 project. What is that? Oh, yes, I love this. There was a man called John Cage and he was an American composer and he loved Zen Buddhism and he's
to hang out with Zen masters and he meditated a lot. He wasn't officially a Zen Buddhist but he really loved this type of philosophy. And he created a piece of music called 4 minutes 33. And what happens is the whole orchestra will go on stage and they will sit there and play nothing for 4 minutes and 33 seconds. So the audience literally have to sit there
and listen to the ambient sound of the concert hall or wherever it's being performed. And he was very sneaky because he was encouraging people to meditate, maybe without them realizing that they were doing it. And it's all done through your ears and listening very closely to the ambient sound. And this was a huge thing to do quite revolutionary at the time when you put it out. And we can have a go at doing it very easily by setting a timer for 4 minutes
and 33 seconds. But there are wonderful videos. If you search for John Cage 4 minutes 33 on YouTube, you can see big concert halls filled with thousands of people all just listening to silence. And this was his way of connecting to Zen. And I absolutely love this as a concert. No, it sounds like a lot of fun. I'm going to have to give that a try. So set a timer for 4 minutes and 33 seconds and you can do this in different places. You can do this
at home, in nature, downtown. And then just spend that time focusing your thoughts, like letting your mind be still and paying close attention to the sounds and the environment. OK, so the big thing you took from Zen is meditation and the different variations of it you've talked about. Are there any other practices or challenges inspired by Buddhism that you recommend? Another tool that I think is really useful from Buddhism is this idea of impermanence.
And I really like this idea. So the idea is that everything around us is changing. We know that just by observing the world around us. And this is very helpful because if we're going through a tough time, we can really hold on to the fact that it will change. Everything is constantly moving and evolving. So we can focus on the other side of difficulty. So for instance, if I had to go to the dentist for something to get a feeling, whatever,
and I know that I'm not going to enjoy that process. However, I know that it's a temporary experience. And I can try to project my mind to the other side of the experience and know that it's all changing. And I will be through this. And this takes away maybe the weight of that situation. It helps to lighten it. So same if you're in traffic, you know you're not going to be in traffic forever. So focus on the fact that things are always changing
and always moving. Now, the other side of this is very powerful because we can use it when we're going through something amazing. So say you're having a beautiful moment with the family or something, you're doing something that you're really enjoying. You can also remember that this is impermanent and it will change. And that can help us to savor those
moments even more. So it's funny how there's two sides to this coin of impermanence. But I think being able to use that and hold on to that when we're going through experiences in life can be very helpful. Yeah, one practice you recommend is intentionally being bored. Why is that a good way to practice Buddhist ideas of impermanence? Yeah, so that's a great way of tapping into this idea of sitting with the mind. So that's
I wouldn't say that boredom is like a practice that Buddhists would do. But it's one of the challenges in the book that I encourage people to do because it's a way to train the mind and to sort of sit with the mind itself and try and understand how you think about things. So a great way to do this is to put yourself in a situation where you're doing something that you really will find boring, like watching a movie that's just terrible. You really
don't want to watch. We're listening to a song you really don't like or trying a genre of music that you really hate. And just paying attention to the mind when you're doing that. It's a great way of highlighting what's going on in between your ears. It's a nice way of trying to understand yourself better and putting yourself in these boring situations is good as well because then when you actually have to encounter a boring situation, you're
a little bit trained and you can kind of frame it as training as well. Have you heard about this trend that's happening online of dudes? They'll get on a flight that's like a seven hour flight and they'll just stare. They won't look at their phone. They won't they'll stare at like the maybe there's a screen in front of them, the flight path. They call it raw doggy, which has that sexual and you window. But there's this whole,
I don't know if you've seen this. It's kind of funny. Yeah, I have seen it. Yeah, they're essentially doing a meditation, like quite an extreme version of that where they're actually going in for this, like almost like a meditation retreat. They just sat there and just floating on just being present. I don't know whether there's the philosophical intention behind it, whether it's just supposed to be kind of a funny thing. But actually it's amazing.
Yeah, if you look at it like that, if you see it as a philosophical practice, yeah, that's pretty impressive. Yeah. Though I incorporate bored in my life. It's whatever I'm standing in line for something or waiting at the doctor's office. Instead of checking my phone, I'll just sit there and just be bored. And it's a challenge because you have that itch to want to check your phone and distract yourself. But I try to exercise my
willpower and just be with my my board feeling. So usually it passes after a few minutes. Another philosophy you look at is cynicism. This is another ancient Greek philosophy. What's the story of the cynics? So the cynics are very different. They're a great bunch of ancient folk who used to do some wild things in the name of philosophy. Now there aren't actually that many cynics today. But the word cynic now has a slightly negative connotation,
kind of implies someone who's overly skeptical in a negative way. But it actually the original cynicism comes from kinocostis, ancient Greek word which means dog-like. And it was meant as a derogatory thing towards the cynics because they used to live like wild dogs. And they would choose to live a life of homelessness out of a way to practice their philosophy. And the philosophy is all about being able to build resilience and also be detached from
the state. They were very open about freedom of speech. This was one of the cornerstones of cynic philosophy. In fact, the four cornerstones of cynicism. The first one is freedom of speech. And the famous cynic, Diogeny, said that freedom of speech is the most beautiful thing in the world. Now that was really important to them. And the other three cornerstones we've got, endurance, so you've got to be tough to be a cynic. This practice called asksis,
where they would deliberately do difficult things to build resilience. And then finally there's self-sufficiency, which is whether able to look after themselves and not have to rely on the states or rely on anyone else. And this was important to them because they felt that freedom of speech could only really happen if you were not dependent on a state for any money or for worrying about your reputation. So being outside of the system in a way
allowed them to criticize it and openly look and discuss ancient society. So they're really fascinating philosophers. And I'm particularly interested in their practical resilience building that asksis training, which they used to do. And they did some very funny things in the name of self-improvement. Oh yeah. So this asksis training. So Diogeny's, he famously lived in like a barrel, basically a tub, didn't bathe, urinated, like just defecated in public.
Just a weird guy. And I mean, there's that famous story of Alexander the Great went to go meet Diogeny's and Diogeny's told this guy who basically thought he was God on earth. Hey, get out of my way. You're standing in front of my son in Alexander. He respected that. He's like, man, this guy, this guy's awesome. He has no master. He's his own master. Yeah, exactly. And I love that. Someone, I can't remember who it was, but they, we were
talking about the cynics and they described them as the trolls of ancient Athens. And I thought that was hilarious because a lot of them would do these things to provoke big reactions from society. You know, the theaters would empty at the end of a performance. And hundreds of people would go out onto the streets. And the cynics would be there deliberately
walking in the wrong direction, getting in the way. And that is really what a lot of the cynic philosophy is about is really challenging conventions and really making people question the way that they're living their lives. So you're the great bunch. So I don't think you're not advocating that people start bathing and start urinating in public. But what can we take away from the cynics and what are some practices we can
do to incorporate that into our lives? Yeah, absolutely not. I think that this is probably why people enjoy stosis. Maybe it's a bit more palatable and stosis and actually sort of came from the cynics. But yeah, in terms of practical application of the cynics, what we're looking for is this askeesis training. So finding things that make us a little bit uncomfortable. We don't have to go too far with it. But one of the exercises that I love
that's very ridiculous, but it's inspired by the cynics is called the banana walk. And it's basically embarrassing yourself in public. So there was a man called Albert Ellis. And he created a modern therapy called R-E-B-T rational emotive behavior therapy. And this was based on how a lot of the ideas in this therapy were based on how the cynics would
deliberately do embarrassing things and do things to challenge society. So he created this thing called the banana walk, which is where you take a banana, you tie a piece of string to it, and then you go for a walk in a busy public place. And people will stare at you and you'll feel embarrassed. And you have to work through a lot of things going in your head. And I can say, honestly, I've done this myself. I've walked bananas in London, carrots in
Paris, all on string, feeling very silly about the whole situation. But it's amazing what happens within the mind. And this is what Albert Ellis was encouraging people to do, to really challenge that internal dialogue. Why are we embarrassed? And the more you do it, the more comfortable you become in your own skin. And Diogenes, this cynic we were talking about, he used to drag a bottle of wine on a piece of string through the agora, the
ancient marketplace in Athens. So there's a direct tie to this modern practice of walking bananas in public. And you know what, if you go to the Albert Ellis Institute in New York, you'll often see people walking bananas on string outside the building as a way to basically build resilience and build self-confidence and to not get so caught up in how other people
are thinking about us. So it's a lovely practice. And yeah, I always try and encourage people to connect to this ancient art of doing embarrassing things in the name of self-improvement. Yeah, it sounds like it's a form of exposure therapy. You have this anxiety that people are going to think of you poorly. But then you just do these things where you put yourself in situations where you think people are going to be thinking bad about you. And then
you kind of get a nerd to it. Any other things besides walking a banana you can do to embarrass yourself? For sure. Yeah, there's tons. I mean, when I became a dad about three years ago and someone gave me a book of dad jokes and they're all terrible. They're just awful jokes. So I've been testing them out on strangers. And if you stop people in London during rush out to tell them a bad joke, it's going to go down like a lead balloon. And it's honestly
so embarrassing for me and for anyone that I stop to tell them this terrible joke. But in the process, it is learning to sit with that discomfort, my mental discomfort. So that's one thing that I've been doing. People could announce the next stop on the train out loud or they can sing out loud, whether walking down the street. It's all about embarrassing yourself. There's a great show in the US actually. It's called impractical jokers. Oh,
yeah. I'm not sure if you know. Yeah. So basically that is this concept is called shame attacking. And Albert Ellis is a big fan of shame attacking. And there's even a shame attacking championships where people have to try and outdo each other by doing embarrassing things in public. But the key is to make sure it's about you being embarrassed, not trying to embarrass other people. So it's a personal development thing. But it's pretty funny
when you unpack it a bit. We're going to take a quick break for you words from our sponsors. And now back to the show. So the next class you look at in the book is Taoism. For those who aren't familiar with Taoism, what are its main ideas? So this is an ancient Chinese philosophy. And it's very practical. In a way, it became a religion as it evolved. And it became semi-official religion for China at one point. And some people view it as a philosophy
or as a religion. So there's a mix. And it's all down to interpretation. It's very practical. And the main purpose again is to lock into this idea of building a good life and flourishing. And for the Taoists, there's a real connection to nature and using nature and building that relationship with the natural world around us. In fact, the way that they learnt about the universe was through observation of the natural world. And we can see this because
the Taoists created the hanglider. And they created it as a way to understand the natural laws of the world around them in the Chinese mountains. So observing nature, connecting to nature, there's also a well-being side of Taoism, things like Tai Chi and Chi Gong, Chi Gong, where you are basically performing movements and breath work. And all of this
can help us to cultivate well-being. So there's loads of ideas. I mean, I'm really simplifying here and here in the top line, of course, because all of these philosophies are so detailed. But for me, the key thing that I connect to with Taoism is this relationship with nature. And also trying to understand ourselves are intuition as well. This is a big thing. There's a lot of talk about one of my favourite ideas in Taoism is this concept called Wu Wei,
which is where you go with the flow and you emulate nature. So when water is confronted by a rock, it will go round it, it will work with the obstacle. And if you look at Bruce Lee and how he used to use his opponent's strength against them, it would kind of, you know, very sort of yielding in the way that he would work. And there's lots of quotes that are very Taoist in nature that you'll see if you're a fan of Bruce Lee's work. So there's a lot
going on with Taoism. But yeah, for me, I love that connection to nature. That's something that I found is very practical getting out into the natural world. Yeah, we did a whole podcast a long time ago about Taoism and about Wu Wei. And I think about this book all the time. It's called Try Not to Try. Did you come across that during your... No, I haven't come across it now. Yeah. So the guy, his name was Edward Slingerland,
and he wrote, he just, it was an introduction to Taoism. But yeah, the Wu Wei, the translation that he proposed, it's like effortless action. Like you were trying to go with the flow. Like you just do something and you do it awesomely, but it feels effortless. So I think all of us have experienced that moment where we're in that flow state. And so Taoism was all about trying to get into that Wu Wei state. And there's different camps in Taoism, just like there was different camps in
Buddhism. And one camp thought that you could achieve Wu Wei, this effortless action by practicing a lot and like, you know, doing things over and over again until it became effortless. And then some people thought, well, no, that's actually you're trying too hard to achieve that effortless state needed to kind of achieve it through this sort of not even trying to try state. But yeah, I think the other whole idea is that you want to achieve this ability to do things without having
to exert much effort. And one of the practices you recommend to help you achieve that is going on a Wu Wei adventure. So what's a Wu Wei adventure? Yeah, I love this as an idea. So basically, it's, it's just learning to tap into your intuition a little bit and just going with the flow. So classic example would be let's say you rock up to a new city and you've got a general sense of where you are. But it's almost like not relying on the maps and everything like the itinerary that you've
put together. It's just going with the flow and trying to trust your intuition and explore in a very open way and seeing what happens when I was younger, I went on a trip around Europe where you can buy these things called interrail tickets where basically have a ticket on every train. So you can
go wherever you want, whenever you want. And you just float around and it was just before I went to university and there was something amazing about not knowing where you were going to be the next day and knowing what necessarily where you're going to be sleeping and kind of tapping into that, going with the flow, seeing what happens. If you're enjoying a place, you spend more time there, if not, you move on and you're just learning to be a little bit more intuitive in how you're living.
Now obviously the disclaimer is trying to do it in a safe manner and don't do anything silly, but it's a nice way of connecting to our intuition and learning to just kind of be a bit more open to whatever is that we might encounter in the real world. But yeah, the other practice you recommend just spending more time out in nature and you can combine a Wuwei adventure with nature time. Maybe you go to a state park or a national park and just see where the
where things take you. And again, you got to be safe about this. You don't want to do anything down that will get you injured or killed. But yeah, spend time in nature, do things spontaneously, add some serendipity in your life. In your previous book, we mentioned this earlier, how to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. It's inspired by stoicism. So you've,
it's no surprise that you included stoicism and seriously happy. I think most of our listeners are familiar with stoke philosophy, but for those who aren't, give us a thumbnail sketch of its big ideas. Yeah, for sure. So stoicism is very similar in the sense that it's trying to achieve eutimonia. It's trying to create a life that flows well. And they're all about tapping into the cardinal virtues, which are these kind of virtues and quality of character that they believed
everyone should strive towards. So we've got courage, justice, wisdom and self-discipline or temperance. And if we can lock into those, then the stoics believe that ultimately we could live a better life. But there's tons of ideas within stoic philosophy. And you know, I found it particularly helpful for me when I was in my mid-twenties. That's when I discovered it off the back
of really bad anxiety. And I found that a lot of the ideas really spoke to me, particularly the idea of building resilience by stepping outside of your comfort zone and doing difficult things in the name of self-improvement. That really changed my life. And it's interesting because the more I learned, so I started with stoicism, that's how I got into philosophy. The more I started studying, the more I realized that it was actually the cynics who taught the stoics this idea. So some of
these ideas that Diorginis did sort of filtered down to the stoics. And I really like where those two philosophies meet. Because I think stoicism is not as extreme as cynicism. And that's why there are a lot of people who have really connected to it and resonated with it because it's something that you don't need to give away all your possessions to be a stoic. You can still connect to
this idea. And it's highly practical. So yeah, I love it. And I continue to use it in my life. But obviously I like to dabble in other philosophies, well, it's nice to pick ideas and use certain bits that resonate with you. A sort of some practices that people can do to incorporate stoicism into the alive. Yeah, so I think one of the practices that I really like is this idea of simpathia. And it's one of these things that there's a guy called Heracles who created this diagram. It's
basically a concentric, imagine concentric circles. And in the center is you. And then in the next circle is family. The next one is friends. The next one is neighbors. And then it goes on and out towards, you know, everyone in the country, et cetera. And the goal of simpathia is to be able to bring everyone closer to the center so that you're treating friends like family and neighbors like friends. You're being very open and kind in society and you're trying to be a good part of society
and help basically make the world a better place. And it was just a nice way of sort of framing it. And when you see the diagram is quite interesting. And the process of this is called oikiosis, of bringing people closer to you to spread this kindness and this simpathia. So I really like that idea. And it's just being nice to people, isn't it? It's just spreading kindness. And that's something that I think the world definitely needs. And small random acts of kindness is a great
way of actually practically doing this. Yeah, you spend a lot of time talking about how stoicism can help you with your social life because the stoics thought a lot about this. They realized that a lot of our vexations in life are often caused by other people or, you know, us thinking it's being caused by other people. You know, I think Mark has really said that line where it's like, hey, just realize that there's going to be people today when you go out there, they're going to be
annoying, but you can't let that get to you. So I mean, you mentioned the simpathia thing where you think about everyone could be someone you can help out, but any practices that people can incorporate in their lives so that they're not as annoyed by people as they typically are. Yeah, so I think a great thing to do is if someone is challenging, let's put it that way, or if someone is really horrible to you, the way that you can frame that in a practical way is to
switch it around and see it as a test of your character. You're not trying to control that person, you have to accept that they're outside of your control. What you're trying to do is focus on your response to them. So the key idea in stoicism is it's not what happens to you, but how you respond. And this was an epic Titus quote, but it's really like the golden rule in stoicism. It's about how we deal with things that are in and outside of our control. And how other people are to us when
they're unpleasant. That's not really within our control. So it's up to us to respond well to these challenges. And if we see it as a test of our character, this is really tapping back into that eudimonia vibe where we're trying to build character and we see it as a test. We frame it as a test and suddenly it's about us now and how are we going to deal with it? It's not about this other person as being horrible. It's like, okay, we accept that that's going to happen in life.
We're going to encounter difficult people. What do we do about it? So flipping it around like this is actually really powerful. I do this all the time when I'm dating with people here on a little bit challenging. Yeah, you can almost make a game out of it. Like, okay, just how calm and collected can I stay in the face of this annoying person? Because I mean, it's actually kind of fun to see someone who's flipping out on you get more worked up because they're bugged that you're not affected
by their diatribe. And you can do this with your kids too. Like make it a game, how unaffected and calm you can stay when they're having one of their meltdowns. And besides seeing it as a test of character as to how unaffected you can be by other people and circumstances, you also recommend just doing things that make you uncomfortable. So like you said, the Sotoix are a less extreme version of cynicism. So they did things like sleep on the ground where a shabby looking
tunic take cold baths. So you can do something similar like that to get outside of your comfort zone and build up some stoic resilience. You've also included a competing philosophy of stochicism in your book, Epicurianism. What's its story? So this is a fascinating philosophy and Epicurus created a school of philosophy in Athens called the Garden. And it was like a community more like a retirement home, I guess. And the purpose of this was, well, the purpose of Epicurus' philosophy
was to enjoy life. That's what he felt was the important thing. Life is there to be enjoyed. And it's really interesting because when people hear that, they will often think that that's hedonistic and that he was this real party guy and everything was just in excess. But that's the biggest misconception about Epicurus and his philosophy. In reality, he found that too much excess would actually lead to unhappiness or discomfort. And his philosophy was all about trying to
live a life where it's not uncomfortable. So if you're partying all the time, it's going to catch up with you. You're going to get the fallout from the partying that's actually not, he's valued, not feeling like that higher than he felt. You know, he didn't want to feel bad. So in a way, trying to avoid that made it easier. If that makes sense. No, that makes sense. So I think I've heard that when they look at pleasure, you know, feeling good, they're not just looking at it in
the short term. They're looking at it also in the long term. Yeah, that's it. Exactly. Yeah. So that that was really the driving philosophies is how to enjoy life. And he sort of discovered that simple pleasures were really the way to connect with this. And the food in Epicurus's garden was very basic, boiled lentils and a lot of the vegetables were homegrown and it was minimal in a way. And I think he's trying to encourage people to really appreciate the simple
things in life because it's easier to achieve that as well. For instance, on a very hot day, when you have a glass of cold water, it's incredibly satisfying. And there's something really rewarding about that. You don't need the complexity of different juices and different tastes. Actually appreciating the simple things in life was a great way of learning to be more appreciative of everything. And that's really what Epicurus talks about. So it's a great philosophy.
Yes. So some of the challenges you have, eat simpler food and learn how to savor it. So when you're eating your lentil soup, I'm going to just really be with this. You can become a meditative practice almost. How does it feel in my mouth? What does it taste like? And then you also recommend only drinking water for a week or a month, another way to practice Epicurianism. Yeah, that's right. So in the garden, the water was the main drink. That was a big part of it.
So yeah, we're really trying to emulate that. And it's also just a bit of self-control, moderation. Can you handle not having coffee and tea or whatever throughout the day? How does that feel? Are you able to be in control? This idea of moderation really comes in and Epicurus encourages moderation because that ultimately cuts off these like peaks of dopamine hits and kind of highs and lows. So yeah, it's trying to find things that help us to appreciate the small
things in life. Another challenge you recommend inspired by Epicurianism is taking a digital fast. What does that look like and have you done these in the past? Oh yeah, for sure. I do this a lot. I find I just put the phone away and try and do as long as possible. It normally coincides with being away on holiday because I find that that's actually a practical time to do it. But it's amazing how connected we are and dependent we are on this tech. I often
feel that the first few days are quite challenging. A little bit twitchy and edgy just thinking, oh, what's in the inbox? What's happening? It takes a little bit of time for the mind to be okay with that. So actually that to me is a real indicator that there's value in doing this. And interestingly, Epicurus encouraged the people who lived in the garden to not engage with kind of political scandals and the kind of politics of the day. In a way, it was a bit head in the sand and
it was like, you come to the garden and you're going to disconnect a little bit. You don't have to be up to date, don't have to be following what's going on. You can just disconnect a little bit. So really that's a modern way of doing that is by cutting ourselves off from the tech that we are so dependent on. And it also highlights our relationship to that. So there's definitely value in being able to take some time away from it. I think it's really useful. Yeah, so take a break from
Twitter, take a break from Reddit, DailyMail, that's your your voice, check in the news. Just don't watch. Don't look at that stuff for a month. Yeah, exactly. And I think you're not going to miss anything. It's almost impossible to miss anything big nowadays because someone's going to talk to you about it and you're going to hear about it. So you don't need to be following every story, every breaking story. Now every news story is breaking news really. So there's value in kind of stepping
back from it. I think the same as social media as well. We can get really caught up with social media and it's hard because it is addictive. It's designed to be addictive as well. So if adults find it hard, you know, Tina is just going to find it really hard as well. So I think there's so much value in trying to understand our relationship with all of this tech and being able to kind of get some kind of control over it. And the digital faster a good start towards that because it highlights
our dependence. You know, day one, you're going to feel it. And actually, that's good because then it makes you realize how dependent you are on this. And obviously not everyone, but I find sort of generally when we look around us, most people are addicted to their phones. I'm a big fan of Aristotle. So I was happy to see that he ended up in your book. Aristotle wrote about a lot of different things. What part of Aristotelianism did you focus on for your book
seriously? Happy? Yeah. So I mean, he's contributes so much to the Western thought and philosophy in general. But in seriously happy, I wanted a really practical thing that people could connect with and use. So his decision-making method, his model for making decisions is absolutely brilliant. And I use this a lot. So I wanted to share this. This is really the main thing that we drill down on in the book. So I'd like to go through it with you. Yeah, be great. Well, I'll give you the
sort of top line. Basically, this is good for big decisions in life, not necessarily when you're in the coffee shop trying to decide what to drink or what you have in for lunch. This is more of a big life decision. So the first step is to ensure that you have the space to actually process your decision. Give yourself time to think about what this means. So don't rush it. The second thing is make sure you're in the right mental state. So obviously, if you're drunk, you're not going
to be thinking clearly. If you're overly emotional, if you're really stressed, if you're really tired, all of these things can impact your decision. So you want to be in a good mental space when you're making your decision. Then you want to look at all the facts involved. So for some people, you know, they're going to use a spreadsheet, maybe, and they'll be very meticulous with it. But it's really just making sure that you've considered everything, try and get everything in one
place so that you can kind of process it. Then you would consult an expert. And I don't think we should have blind faith in experts, but at the same time, if you wanted to learn the piano, you would probably want to talk to someone who can play the piano. So there's value in speaking to people who have gone through what you're going through or who can actually advise in a good way. So then you want to think about family in France and all the people that this decision will impact.
Is it going to have an effect on their lives? What's it going to do for them? So if you, for instance, if you're moving, how's this going to affect your family and all the people around you in your life? So that's the next step. Then you want to look at history. So you can start mining your own history in your life to see if you've had to make a decision like this before. If so, how did it go? What did you learn? But you can also think a bigger picture. Look historically, see if anyone else
has had to make a similar decision and how did it work? What lessons can we learn from that? And then the final two steps is to be quite mathematical. What's the probability of the, you know, what kind of outcomes are you going to get? And what's the probability of each one? So that's a really important thing to think, okay, is this going to happen? If I make this decision, what, you know, XYZ, what's going to happen? And then finally, you can think about how luck
would play into that decision. So if you get green lights on everything and it goes really well, what's going to happen? You know, what could be at the end of that decision? And also, what could happen if everything goes wrong? If you get red lights and it all goes in patch 8. So considering all of those things, Aristotle believed that you would be fully prepared to make a big life decision. And I love that. I think it's a really practical tool.
Yeah, that's, I think it goes to his idea of practical wisdom or furnaces, just how to figure out what the right thing to do at the right time for the right reasons. And you have to make these decisions all the time. And the process that you laid out can help people develop that practical wisdom so that whenever, so they can reach a point where they don't actually go through that
process, it kind of becomes intuitive. It becomes like almost woo way, right? You just, you know, based on your experience of making these decisions over and over again going through that process, you fine tune your ability to make decisions. Absolutely. And I think you will get better at doing
it the more you do it. But I think sometimes when you have a big decision, a really big decision, sometimes mulling it over in depth like this and having a system and a method that you can actually work through, I find that is really helpful and you can really just take your time to work through it. And yeah, I think that that is very valuable. In as you said, this book's geared
towards young people. So young people like teenagers, they're going through a period of the life where they're making some really big, important decisions where they're going to go to college, who they should marry, what they should do for a career. So this process can, can help with that. So if you're a parent, it's another tool you can give them to help them make these important decisions. Yeah, for sure. And it's a tough time, you know, when you're a teenager, there's a lot
going on. And you've got powerful emotions and trying to manage all of that, making decisions that are sound. So yeah, it's it's hard. And I think having some kind of framework is super useful. So the thing is method is good. And you also challenge people, recommend people, young people, I think anybody as well is just to make more decisions. A lot of people, they take a very passive approach to life is like, I just don't care. Where do you want to go to lunch? Oh, whatever you want.
And so because they're constantly passing the buck, they don't have the ability to make decisions when it matters. So one recommendation you have is just to start making more decisions, even over like the small dumb things like what you want to eat for lunch or what movie you want to watch. Yeah, definitely. That's a great tool as well. And yeah, what would you want to watch? You know, rather than just go, I don't care, you actually just make a decision, just do it. And also don't worry
if it's the wrong decision. I think people get really hung up on that. I want what if I make a mistake? What if I decide something that doesn't work out? Well, that's the part that we need to get comfortable with and just learn that, yeah, sometimes our decisions aren't going to be perfect. But the more we do it, the more we learn to trust ourselves and just know that everything is all right and we can work through whatever happens. So yeah, just being more decisive, it's a good thing to do.
I think everyone can tap into that. And I think also making decisions helps you figure out who you are. I think a lot of young people, I think even you could say adults at go through is like, I don't know, who am I? Like what am I about making decisions forces you to actually think about what you're about
and who you are? Yeah, exactly. And knowing that yeah, sometimes the wrong decision is actually great because it's taught you something about yourself that maybe you didn't know before and is highlighted. Yeah, that's not the direction I want to take. So there's value, as long as you find value in everything you do and always look for the lesson, that's a really good way of framing decision-making.
Well, Ben, this has been a great conversation. Working people, going to learn more about the book and your work. Yes, so the best places my website, BenAllDrich.com and there's links to social media, there's pictures from all the philosophy challenges and bits to my books and stuff. We've got an educator's guide on
there. So this seriously happy book that's coming out in September has this PDF that we've created with the publishers and it's basically starting discussions in classrooms and people who are educators and parents can use this as a way to really drill down on some of the content within the book. So yeah, the website is the best place to go. Fantastic. Well, BenAllDrich, thanks for time. It's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for having me back. Great to be here and chatting to you.
My guest, I guess, he was Ben AllDrich. He's the author of the book, seriously happy. It's available on Amazon.com. You find more information about his work at his website, BenAllDrich.com. Also check out our show notes at awim.is slash seriously happy. We find links to resources. We delve deeper into this topic. Well, that wraps up another edition of the awim podcast. Make sure check out our website at artofmanliss.com, refinder podcast archives, as well as thousands of articles
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