¶ Why logic alone doesn't persuade
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In each and every interaction, personal, professional, throughout every single day, we're faced with a choice. Do I want to be right? Or do I want to make a difference?
And being right is really easy. And so what's the alternative? To make a difference. And making a difference means that sometimes you gotta you gotta not say that thing that you wanna say'cause it just feels good to say it and understand them, say things that resonate with them, build an authentic, trusting relationship with them, put things in their terms, communicate on
At level of their values, those sorts of things that make them feel good about moving forward with you, and then grease the wheels of shared action time after time.
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All right, let's kick off today's show. Today we're talking with Josh Bandock, former speechwriter and author of How to Get What You Want, Mastering the Art and Science of Persuasion. Josh spent a decade studying why smart people struggle to persuade and what neuroscience reveals about how we actually make decisions. Today he shares why our brains feel before they reason, how six moral taste buds shape values
the real cost of making persuasion about winning and why framing matters more than your argument. Welcome to the show, Josh. It's great to have you.
Uh AJ John, thank you so much. It's a real pleasure to be here.
I'd love to start with your journey into mastering persuasion. If you could share with our audience a bit about your career and what drew you to persuasion.
This has been really, as I reflected on this, it's been like two decades in the making. Um, part of it was that in my previous life, I was an academic. and academics, they're many of them really high IQ and somehow
not persuasive and I kind of intuitively knew something was a little bit off. Um and then I left academia and I have come over the last decade, which is what it took to put this book together, um, to understand what that was. So I spent some time in fundraising and I started to understand that there's this this this mindset you need if you want to sell things and get what you want and it's to flip things, to not focus on yourself but to focus on the other person.
Okay.
And then I just started doing a lot of research and a lot of just practicing communications as a speech writer. I wrote for a number of high level government officials.
And then just
reading the neuroscience, the psychology and trying to understand how this thing up here, the human brain works, because I think you have two options. You can either ignore our cognitive realities, probably not a recipes for success, or you can just understand and navigate them. So then I've also turned into a public policy advocate. So I get out and advocate for ideas uh on a weekly basis. And I've tried to bring all of that together and put it into this book, How to Get What You Want.
And why do you think so many of us default to logic when it comes to persuasion?
Well, I think uh for so many reasons, um, and then I'll you know, kind of explain why it's not not the best approach. Um look, IQ is important and logic is important. Like do you We don't want our engineers to build bridges on illogical foundations. Like that's a recipe for disaster. And we're also taught, right, like
you know, be smart and then like we're taught in school to sort of reason in a certain way. Academics reinforce this through the peer review process. So it makes sense intuitively because nobody's story is like
¶ The "feel first, then reason" principle
Well, you know, I'm not smart and like that's great, right? Like we're all taught to be smart and we celebrate that. So it makes sense. It's just that um the trouble is that Our brains are wired a little bit differently. So our brains are wired to feel first, then reason. Sometimes it's feel, then reason. Sometimes it's feel, and we never get to reasoning.
So that's our cognitive process, but logic is still celebrated in the academy, in schools, and everything. It's just that it's not in accordance with how these things are wired all of us.
Yeah, I think the struggle for many of us is once we've reached that place, that conclusion that uh area that we want to advocate for, we feel that we've brought a lot of logic to the situation. So then we start from logic first and we don't think about the emotions that drew us there in the first place.
Hundred percent. And because we feel first, that means that persuasion actually starts with feelings, which, you know, especially for people who pride themselves on their intellect, you know, went to college, maybe had some additional degrees. That's like that's a really tough pill to swallow. And The research actually shows that um people who tragically suffer brain damage
and lose the ability to emote, uh, their logic is actually impaired. So our emotions actually support our reasoning. And, you know, think maybe think about this way, when so the sort of most brutal way to I I think uh Take the logic first approaches, what I call logic tsunami. So you just
Launch your logic of somebody else and you're hoping that the tsunami is gonna wash away their their bad thoughts or their mistaken thoughts about something. And has that either like has that ever worked on you? We don't like being on the receiver.
Right.
Um so it's like, well, we don't like people launching their logic at us. And um, instead, you have to start with feelings. And even when you share logic, you have to make sure that the logic that you share is in accordance with how your counterpart thinks about things, not just how you think about
Everyone has their the mechanisms in which uh they get to their truth. And uh, you know, and mentioning the logic tsunami, there is Certainly been a lot of positions that I had come to in the last uh few years that I didn't want to have to come to. And it the the logic tsunami. at least for myself, it didn't happen all at once. It was just being bombarded.
with data and evidence over and over and over and over th that slowly ate away at the uh the emotional hold that I had over some positions that had won out. So You know, and and thinking about it absolutely the logic tsunami might not flip the switch in the moment, but a steady
of that the the annoying of factoids uh if they just keep presenting themselves over and over and over again, eventually w uh uh if the if the other person on the other side uh prides themselves on on ac accepting evidence and data. w there's many different ways, as as you know, as somebody who's experienced the persuasion to work
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A hundred percent. And I think the superpower that people need to develop is take your IQ and marry it with emotional intelligence.
¶ Why persuasion isn't about winning
So how do you deliver that logic? And how do you deliver in a way that um is gonna be received better by your audience? So sure, some of it is a slow drip. You don't have to hit somebody with things all at once. And one reason that you wanna start with feelings is that you just need to know how somebody's feeling about something. If you're trying to sell them on something and you can literally just ask them, um
How do you feel about this deal? And they say, Well, look, you know, the trouble for me is I just, I don't know if I have the financing now. Okay. Well, There's logic there too. They don't have the money. So then you're starting to sort of understand what are some of the barriers to moving forward. So I think it's delivering the logic in a way that's palatable. The best way to do that is to tell them stories.
So you can, you know, tell a story about maybe even the data or tell a story about somebody who say did what you wanted this person to do and how it worked out for them. You're always delivering logic. The question is. How are you doing it? And I think the answer is with as much emotional intelligence as possible.
Yeah, I think many of us when we think about trying to persuade someone, we think about winning and we think that winning then leads to agreement, getting the other person to fully agree with us. But the actual way to get agreement first is on an emotional level. When you can actually match and mirror someone's emotions, recognize and validate those emotions, it actually opens up their ability to start to agree or see your perspective and your life.
A hundred percent. And there are two, I think, big misconceptions of what persuasion is. And you just you just touched on the first one, which is that it's about winning. And if I win against you, what what does that make you? It makes you a loser. That's all right. That's terrible. Um, do you want to work with somebody who makes you feel like a loser?
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Not really. So um the other big misconception is that persuasion is all about convincing someone to think like us. And the problem is that the Latin root of the word convince actually means to vanquish or to conquer. And conquest is barbaric. So when you try to win against somebody, it's oftentimes counterproductive. And if you instead just try to
start by understanding how they're feeling about something, then that actually is a quicker route to their logic because the emotions are almost always grounded and reasoned. And when you ask somebody, how do you feel about this, they give you an unguarded answer. as opposed to if you say, what do you think about something and they pause.
And they give you that guarded answer. And if somebody's feeling negative about the idea or they're just having a bad day, then it just might not be the right time to proceed with it. If they're feeling good, green light, go proceed.
So f to make it practical for those in our audience who might have to persuade team members or might have to persuade someone at work. You know, how can we approach it with this EQ mindset first? Walk us through what we should be thinking and doing to prepare as we hope to persuade someone to our side.
Absolutely. It starts by putting them first. And the trouble is that we're wired to think and talk mostly about ourselves. I had an intern a couple of summers ago. uh smart kid, nice kid, John. And he loved to just put himself at the center of things, talk first, talk, talk a lot, wave his hand around, show everyone how great he was.
He even liked to interrupt people, love to interrupt me and I kind of said, Well, you know, do you think interrupting is the best way to, you know, to get what you want? And he ah, okay, maybe not. And over the course of summer he started to transform and to instead of putting himself first, put the team first. And that worked out should be well for John. He star he eventually outperformed all the other interns and
He got to stay on and get a promotion. So he kind of flipped this around. Um and what John did aligns with our wiring. We're wired to think about ourselves. It's how we're taught, right? To put ourselves at the center of things. It's just not persuasive. So you have to put them first.
¶ Green, yellow, red: reading signals
Then what do you do? You understand how they're feeling. And the selfie tactic is just to literally ask somebody, instead of saying what do you think about something, what are you thinking right now? Um, whatever, just say, how do you feel about whatever it is? Um, and then they tell you. And that's the quick intuitive. And then when you know that, if they're giving you a green light to proceed, great. If it's a red light or a yellow light, well, maybe you don't proceed or you have to pause.
Then you have to generate persuasive feelings. How do you do that? Well, you have to be for something and ideally for something that resonates with them. You can be for something that makes you feel amazing. And if it doesn't generate persuasive feelings in your counterpart, then that's not gonna work. If you're trying to sell something and you have all these things you think are great about it and you're for those things.
And that doesn't at all overlap with what the person wants or needs, that's not gonna work. And the best way to do all this is to tell stories. So that's the really quick version going through everything.
Well let's talk about that red, yellow, green scenario. So give us some ideas of what's a green and and then what might be a yellow and then what is a clear red so that we can start to steer as we go through this persuasive process.
So there are two big questions I would encourage people to ask. The first is how do you feel about And then they're gonna tell you. And if they respond something like, Oh yeah, that sounds great, well, you know. Okay, cool. Or if they're like, Look, I love so much about this, okay. That's like a pretty green um light. If they say, Well, you know, um I just uh I think this could work, but I'm I'm still working out a couple of
Okay. Um, then there's some hesitation there. That's the yellow light. And if they're like, you know, um, not a good time, man, like this, uh, please come back later, right? Red light. So then if you see the yellow or the red light, people think the persuasion is about getting somebody to do something. And I've learned over the decade plus that I've been working on this that persuasion is much more about
I identifying, understanding what's stopping somebody from doing something because they're not doing it now. Why not? You have to understand that. So you have to identify and remove barriers. So once you get that yellow or that red light from somebody, you literally just want to ask them something like,
What would stop you from proceeding? What would stop you from working with me? What would stop you from signing on to this deal? Whatever it is that you want exactly from them? What would stop you from buying? What would stop you from increasing how much you buy from me? And when you ask somebody about barriers, they're not nearly as guarded as if you ask somebody, well, hey, you know, like, will you buy more? Um, so they'll say, Well, look, um
I love what you're doing. I think it's a great product.
But
Um, I'm committed to another vendor until the end of this year. So can you come back to me in November? Oh, okay, cool. So it's just a matter of months. Or they say, Look, um, I love what you're doing. I just I don't have the financing right now. And I got a couple of things in the the pipeline. If they pan out, great.
then we could talk in a few months. Or if they say, look, you know, I just I've been working with this this other vendor for a long time. I like him. I trust him. It's a long-term relationship. Or if they say, look, um, I don't know if your product meets my needs.
Okay, well then you have to understand what they are. Those are all different, either yellow or red lights. And if you don't ask them what the barrier is, then you don't know what you have to overcome. And then what you need to do is remove that barrier. So if they're concerned, does your product meet their needs?
understand what their needs are, and then show as authentically and carefully as possible. Here's how my product is going to give you exactly what you need. Not what I think you need, but what you need.
And that's why you have to identify those barriers. Otherwise you can't remove them. And then that's stopping somebody from doing what you want them to do.
And certainly if if they're in that if you're getting the yellow light It certainly proceeding with caution. Um because when people shut down and they're in the red light and that's just n they're in no mode, uh good luck getting them out of that. They've already made up. in their mind. But the yellow is is somewhat of a blessing because you're gonna
If you ask the right questions, you're gonna f get all sorts of information that not only is gonna help you on on that cell, but is also gonna help you in the in the future as well. And If you if they're at a yellow uh but you ask'em how they feel and they're they're open to it. You're going to learn all all sorts of things. I mean, people will tell you everything you you need to know about them to move forward to get the green if you listen. They're gonna drop identity markers.
constantly through that conversation. And those identity markers all lead to their the mechanisms that drive decision, such as their their core values, the things that are important to them. And if there are hurdles, uh it's it's going to be because a core value is either not being met or is infringed upon.
One hundred percent uh to all of that. You said listening and it starts there. And a lot of people who are trying to negotiate a deal, sell something, whatever, they forget that you have to start with listening because if I listen to you and who you are, what you care about, I can appeal to that.
And then if there's still a barrier there and I'm not listening for it and I don't see it because I'm not looking, because I'm just not that interested, then that's going to always stop you from moving forward. So you have to listen. And then when you can remove those barriers, that's powerful for two reasons. It unlocks
long-term working with somebody because that barrier's not there and they feel like you're really understanding them. So that forms connection, relationship, and trust, which is really powerful. Um Some things you also have to look out for are somebody's tone because the words can sound good. Um Yeah, um... That would work for me.
Well, there was a lot of hesitation there as opposed to, yeah, that would work for me. Um, if you're not listening out for tone and you just hear the words, then what sounds like a green light to somebody who's not listening, uh, yeah, that would work for me, is actually hesitation. Yeah. That would work for me. And then when you see that hesitation, call it out because people get really afraid. So they're like, well
I think he's hesitant, but I'm just gonna blow by it and I'm not gonna worry about it. The best thing you can do is just to put it front and center. So you can just say, look, it sounds like you're hesitant or it sounds like you're concerned that my product doesn't meet your needs, you don't have the financing, whatever. Call it out and invite them to say more and then just listen. Don't ignore it.
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This is something that we do in our our programs and just helping our clients understand what to listen for. Because you tell people, listen, you need the active listening or you need to be a better listener. Everybody's heard that, but yet
¶ The power of framing and storytelling
w without proper instructions, well what or uh having an idea what you're listening for, w y you're just w turning up everything, you're just making things louder in your mind. That doesn't help.
Uh it's about identifying uh the indicators that of of those core values. And for our clients, conversation takes on new meaning once that is unlocked. In fact, You know, it's it's from going from uh well, we're talking about hearing, but we can make the analogy of seeing from from black and white to color.
Absolutely. And one of the the funny things about listening is that no one no one teaches us how to do it. I mean, I know you do with your clients, but for the most part, we're not taught how to listen. So it's like we have these things, ears. Hearing somebody is not the same as listening to them. In the book I I talk about three kinds of listening, past listening, which is just Shut the front door and just listen to what somebody's saying. And that's powerful because we love feeling heard.
And then active listening, which is starting to like really press on the things that somebody cares about to deepen your understanding of them. And then proactive listening, which which which uh points you towards shared action. You might ask a question like, how do you want to proceed? And we think that if I talk, I'm going to make all my points and I'm going to drive conversation.
If you ask someone how they want to proceed or what the next steps are, oftentimes, especially if you're connected with them, they're going to lay things out that you already like. Check, check, check. Cool. I didn't have to ask for that. They offered it. they're gonna oftentimes offer more on some things than you were gonna even ask for. And then if they are offering seven things and five of them sound great, you can say
Oh well, could we also do these one or two things? And they feel like you're getting like you're giving them five or six things and you just want one thing from them and you've gotten way more than if you said, I want this, this, and this. And they're like, well, I don't know, maybe, but then I can do that.
Yeah, I think the problem for many of us, especially when there's tension and pressure on us, is we start focusing on pattern matching with our listening. Like, oh, I hear this, so that means this barrier. Or I've heard this before on another conversation. So let me just assume that that's what's going on with them because it speeds up the process and it starts to alleviate that tension and pressure from us as we walk into uncertainty.
But unfortunately, when we're making those assumptions and we're guessing based on previous conversations with completely other people, oftentimes we're gonna end up being less persuasive because we're not actually identifying their real barrier. And what I love about the questions that you just shared with our audience is these work in any situation, not just in a sales conversation. Maybe you have to give constructive feedback in a review.
And you want the person to actually hear what the review is and not put up a barrier and get frustrated with you and breach the re relationship with them. So recognizing that by asking another layer of questions and bringing another layer of curiosity instead of defaulting to your pattern matching analytical side when being persuasive creates more on the table as you shared.
really gets to the meat of what the barrier is and not just assuming that we understand the barrier and makes the other person more open to what we have to share with them because now we can find alignment instead of being adversarial. Absolutely.
Absolutely. And Listening is actually a great me first strategy. Um, the missionary reason to listen and to put the other person first uh is that that's how you build authentic relationships. That's how you build trust and that's how we all want to be treated. The mercenary reason for it is that when you're talking and I'm listening carefully, I'm identifying overlap in the things that we both want.
So that's where we can work together and I'm understanding your values and I can appeal to those values.
And
what you said is a hundred percent right, which is oftentimes we assume, okay, well, I talked to this other guy recently. This is a similar situation. So I assume this is the same situation. And it could have been a totally different situation. And if you don't listen, you're making appeals, uh, you know, A and B when it's actually appeals C and D that you need. And sometimes appeals A and B might upset the other person. So don't make those appeals, right? Like
People do things for any number of reasons. Don't assume that your reasons are their reasons or that Bob's reasons is John's or AJ's reasons because they're not.
Yeah, and and so often, you know, we've experienced this in sales and if anyone in the audience is in sales, you've definitely experienced this where you might assume, oh, they don't have the money and in actuality by asking a few more questions it was, Well, no, actually I make big decisions with my wife.
And I actually have the money. But if you just make the assumption they don't have the money and start trying to manage that roadblock, you're gonna find they're gonna be really frustrated with you and they're gonna feel like now you're making assumption that they don't have money at all. So oftentimes when we're looking for these patterns to be persuasive, and if we find ourselves in conversations like this, sales where we have to persuade again and again.
It's easy to default to that pattern matching part of our brain and start making assumptions to to speed up the process because we're feeling that tension and pressure. And that's why, as John shared, we really focus with our clients on putting them in tense and pressure-filled situations inside of the course. and the training so that then when they go out in the real world and they're finding themselves in the same tense, pressure filled situation.
they're not defaulting to the pattern matching and to logic. They're recognizing, oh, this is a time to lean into that emotional listening and the EQ to find the value alignment and now to really f figure out, okay, how can we both win in this situation? And one thing that comes out of this with a lot of our clients is they feel this pressure to find yes.
And they maybe even heard on other courses or online like the yes ladder, just get'em saying yes again and again if you could string together a few yeses and all of a sudden they're gonna be in complete agreement. Right. And that falls completely flat in the moment and they don't recognize why. And I think it's really important to to shift to focusing on, well, actually what is the barrier? What's the block here? What's the no?
And can I get to that no so that we could figure out how to turn that no into a yes and not avoid the no or treat the no like the elephant in the room.
To go along with that, when you bring up what yes momentum is or the yes ladder. That's what that's where people go to, right? But what actuality is the yes momentum or ladder is just a result. of you doing the r focusing on the right things. So you know, it's not the it's not the mechanism you're it's a it's a it's a result of you doing the right things, which is the reason it it works. It's not the mechanism itself.
Absolutely. And one kind of big picture thing that I'll press on uh before sharing a couple of additional thoughts is the necessity of training and trusting your training and practicing in low stak situations so that when you get into these tense situations that you're talking about. you negotiate in a big deal, a tense conversation, that you're ready to do that. So you're training things like listening and
you're even sort of untraining some of the bad habits you've talked about, like going for yes. And one of the reasons that putting them first is so powerful is that if you ask yourself, well, how would I feel if somebody did this to me? So when somebody tries to corner me into saying yes, like I get defensive. I don't want to do it and I don't like that. So completely agree. You can actually invite no.
And understand what their barriers are. That's why the barrier question is so important. What would stop you? What's stopping you? I used to work in fundraising, that's just selling a nonprofit. And it's like, well, what would stop you from either investing in my organization or what would stop you from increasing? It might not be money money at all. I met with billionaires and it's like money is not the issue. So is it that they just
They haven't seen the the ROI on their investment. Is it that you're really a second or a third tier priority? Or they just they just don't know enough about you. Um, what is it exactly that's stopping them? And if you don't know what their no is, and you just say, Well, but isn't this great from my perspective, then you're not gonna make the sale or you're gonna sell way less uh than if you understand what their no.
through listening. And then yes, that's getting to yes means them giving you money, sign the deal, whatever, but you don't get that by forcing yes on somebody. They even talk about what is it? Uh yes tie downs is is one of the approaches because we all love being tied down.
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Yeah, I I can't imagine a more awkward conversation to be in than someone forcing yes momentum on me and and tying me down to sell me the used car.
Yeah.
Going along with that, I think the other default mode that we find ourselves in in these situations is we focus on the game. We feel like, hey, the best way to persuade this person is to share with them everything they're gonna get out of this deal, everything that's gonna come out of them.
actually upping their performance and doing the thing that I need and how they're gonna get a raise and they're gonna get a promotion if if they just improve their work or hey, I'm selling you something and look at all these added benefits you're gonna get. And in actuality, we are not wired to care nearly as much about the gains as we think about and fear the losses.
But if we find ourselves in the situation where we're leaning into all the things you're gonna gain and never addressing what the actual fear that they have is is what are they gonna lose in this deal? What are they gonna pay? What's gonna be the cost of them proceeding?
If we don't address that at all, we actually become less persuasive. And it's really counterintuitive when we feel like, hey, this is a great deal. I have a great service. I have a great opportunity for you. Why aren't you saying yes?
Oh, I love it. Um I loss is so foundational. Uh this is uh Danny Kahneman and Amos Taversky's work about prospect theory, which is that loss stings five or ten times as much as a as a a gain. So you have to not just understand what somebody's gonna quote unquote win or get from something, what they stand to lose. And sometimes you can even frame things in terms of loss.
So do you want to lose the opportunity to work together? Right. I have a lot of potential clients. Or you know, they're like, well, you could gain 10%. The flip side of that is that um if We don't work together, you're gonna lose ten percent. So even just framing things in terms of law.
after you understand what their concerns are because the thing that you think they might be losing, they could see it as a gain or they may may not see it as a loss. So understand what they might be worried about losing and then Help them understand that they they don't want to lose that and you can stop them from losing that and instead help them gain things. But yeah, frame things in terms of losses when you can.
going along with this analytical technical mindset that we see in our clients, much of their career and certainly much of their schooling and certification has been around proving they are right, proving that they are correct and accurate. And that creates this crusaders mindset that they then bring into these soft skill areas, these areas of persuasion, where they just feel they have to prove to the other side that they are right.
And if in doing so they adopt this mindset, well, the other side's gonna feel wrong and they're gonna be less likely to be persuaded or convinced by our argument. But this is a trap that many of our analytical clients fall into.
Oh, I could not agree more and There's the crusader's mindset versus the persuaders mindset. And I like to frame things this way. In each and every interaction, personal, professional, throughout every single day, we're faced with a choice. Do I want to be right? Or do I want to make a difference? And being right is really easy. And that's what Crusaders love doing, right? They love to send the text, the email, uh, right.
the tweets, right? Make that point in the meeting'cause you know you're right. And it doesn't matter how the other person experiences that. And I once um Work with someone professionally. They moved on to another opportunity. And I got some feedback from people that organization, uh, is for essentially like summer opportunities, and talked to the guy who supervised him and said, look. This guy performed like five years above his like grade level, essentially. And
Doesn't matter. We don't want him back because all he did was go around and be right and offended all of his colleagues. It's like this guy's super smart and he has had so many doors closed to him because he has to be right on everything. So what's the alternative? To make a difference. And making a difference means that sometimes you gotta, you gotta not say that thing that you want to say because it just feels good to say it and understand them.
Say things that resonate with them, build an authentic, trusting relationship with them, put things in their terms, communicate on uh at level of their values. Those sorts of things that make them feel good about moving forward with you and then grease the wheels of shared action time after time.
I think at this point many in our audience are probably wondering about this tension that comes up anytime we talk about persuasion, which is how do we do this authentically and build a real connection versus all this tactical stuff where it feels like manipulating someone? So what do you say to that listener who's skeptical of what we shared and is fearful about coming across as manipulative?
It's a great question and I get this a lot of times. Well, aren't you just t teaching manipulation? Uh and It's like the force in Star Wars, um, or it's like a knife, right? How do you use it? So the force, do you want to be Yoda or Luke Skywalker, or do you want to be Darth Vader or the Emperor?
Uh you have a knife and you can prepare a magnificent meal. Uh, you know, that's like think about three starred uh, you know, chefs. Uh they got all those fancy mission stars. Or you could do somebody great harm with a knife. So it's about intentions. And if you go into relationships with people and you're only trying to twist and turn, that's manipulation. So all the tools that I talk about in the book and all the strategies. They can be used uh to do bad things in addition to good things.
The missionary reason to persuade and not to manipulate is that manipulation is wrong. No one likes being manipulated. Uh and we don't like when people do it to us. So don't do it to other people. The mercenary reason is that when you manipulate first. So often people's sensors go off in their brain and there's already that yellow or that red light. Um something something's not right here. I don't know about this guy. I'm not sure if I should proceed. And that slows everything down.
And then um if they sign a deal with you and they found out that you did manipulate them, they're gonna do a couple of things. They're gonna drag their feet implementing that deal. And they're never gonna work with you again. And they're gonna tell other people. So you lose out on all the people that if you had that authentic,
persuasive relationship as opposed to an inauthentic, manipulative relationship, all the people that they could say, Oh my God, I've been working with AJ. He is phenomenal. Um, they say, uh Yeah, don't ever work with him. Uh he's a jerk. He manipulated me. Um stay away. Which one's better for long term business? I don't know, you tell me.
For myself, I I usually get a lot of those comments just due to the content uh that I create. But my reply is always What is it about you that drives you straight to that quandary the minute you see basic psychology and how it works?
What do they say? Can I ask?
Nothing.
Yeah, I I think unfortunately for many of us we've had it happen to us where we've been tied down or frustrated by the way someone's proceeded to potentially use our psychology against us. And then we feel quite guarded in thinking about, well, how could I use this? And unfortunately there there's situations where it it's boiled over and you've been so frustrated that maybe you've experienced the emotional volcano where you have the outburst because you feel that you've been taken advantage of
And
Maybe on the flip side you're trying some of these strategies. You're breaking some eggs to make an omelet, and you've misread the situation. You you didn't correctly understand what the barrier was or what their value was, and now you've stepped in it. So let's talk about those emotional volcanoes and how to manage that, because tempers can flare when these skills are used to manipulate or when we use them inappropriately.
Totally and I would just add another layer to that, which is that there's the intentional uh component of manipulation, and that gets tempers to flare. Sometimes it's unintentional too. You might unintentionally offend somebody's values. Right. You might say something that is totally in alignment with w with your values.
and is not in alignment with their values, whether it's a financial point or a public or a political point, we'll stay away from politics today, um, or anything. So whether it's intentional or unintentional, what do you do when tensions are flaring? There's what you do that you can control inside yourself and then what you can control.
you know, to sort of like get the the lava not flowing, you know, okay, cool, calm things down. Um, you have to ask yourself whether now is the right time to engage somebody. If you're upset, maybe that's not the best like when was the last time that you were furious, walked into a situation, and things turned out well? I don't know. It probably doesn't happen too often. So are you even in an emotional state ready to proceed? And is the other person, right? Like
They're upset, your fault or not your fault. Doesn't matter they are. Uh do you really need to engage them right now? Because sometimes people just need time. That's like why people say, uh, take a walk around the block because you just get a little bit of distance from a situation. And then when you're ready to proceed, bring maximum calm to a situation. Tone is really important. And if your tone is edgy, irritated.
stressed out in some way, people people hear that, they experience it. Whereas if you can bring calm to a situation, like what kind of leaders do we want in tense situations? We want calm leaders. And research shows that a calm tone is more effective. It also helps to ease those emotions that if someone else is just screaming at you and you can stay calm, that's gonna help to cool things down. You can ask them literally like
W what has them so frustrated? You not say, why are you so angry? But just look, um, I'm sorry. I know you're really upset right now. Um, do you mind just sharing with me what has you so frustrated? And sometimes you might think it's about you and it may not be about you. Sometimes it's about you. Sometimes it's about the deal that is on the table. Maybe you didn't craft that deal. Maybe you're just selling it. But ask them, let them just share because that
Takes the temperature down a little bit. At least they've gotten it off their chest. Okay. And then ask, okay, well, what are your biggest concerns? What like what are your biggest hang-ups? And then when they get more emotional about certain things, look, I just feel like you're taking advantage of me. You know, um this uh we're a startup and you know we're trying to get off the ground and I just, you know, um this this really frustrates me. Okay, well.
They're they're upset about that. They feel like you're taking advantage of them. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't. You have to address it. And then call those things out, address them with emotional intelligence. Don't accuse them. Don't get upset. Cause I think part of the thing that we do with emotions is that we judge them. And they're happening. And you have to observe them and navigate them way before you judge them. Way before.
Yeah, and I think f for many of us in these situations, those emotions we might not even recognize. So the person on the other side might not even recognize that they're expressing frustration or anger at you because emotions can be very difficult for us to control, especially under tension and pressure. And that's why it's so important to recognize, well, what can we do?
to manage our emotions more effectively, not worry so much about trying to manage the other side's emotions, but if we can come with that calm tone, if we can withstand whatever the emotional pressure that the other side is feeling, we become more persuasive in that moment.
And it can definitely be challenging when we feel that the stakes are really high or or maybe we can lose something here. So we feel emotionally charged too. So do you have any other practical strategies that we can do if we find that In these situations we tend to also be emotionally charged and it's difficult for us to come with that calm demeanor.
Part of it is to trust your training and to know on average, on average, what works. these sorts of things, being calm, being mindful of how how your counterpart is feeling. That's why the feeling question is so important. And just observing those things before that though, understanding them and trying to
Trying to get a sense of where they are and what might m push them to feel more negatively about something. So, you know, if you're going to meet with a potential or current client and you have information about you know, their their interest and values and their financial situation and things like that, then don't press them on things that you know don't work for them.
Because a lot of times you know what those triggers are and you know, avoid those triggers. I mean, just think about, you know, like when you say something intentionally to upset somebody, you know it's a trigger. So think about the things that could not through any bad intentions trigger somebody because you're trying to stop them from even going down that that that uh negative emotional route in the first place.
So that's where understanding beforehand and the listening come in, giving them outlets throughout the conversation. You gotta pause sometimes and say, like, how are you feeling about this? Because it's like concern, maybe early in the conversation and you don't address it and that builds up, then it goes from small to big or small to enormous, or even to small to like big.
And it's growing in their mind. So invite those things. How are you feeling about this? And say, look, you know, I like a lot of what I'm here. Okay, what do you like? Fine. It sounds like there's some hesitation. Um, what is it? Just invite it and then address it because you're always looking to release the pressure, release the pressure so that it's manageable as opposed to unmanageable.
Now we are far from a political show, but we've talked in the past about how politics seems to run the day right now. And many of us find ourselves across the divide from coworkers, friends, family in difficult situations And yet we need to be persuasive. We can't just persuade our own side. We have to b understand how to persuade all sides.
So walk us through the taste bud mentality and how we can start to understand these core motivators and values that allow us to be persuasive, even if we have no agreement with the other side or politically we are completely at odds.
Would you ever force feed a vegetarian veal?
No.
Would you foresee somebody who keeps kosher? Uh
Absolutely not.
Right. So the worst way to persuade somebody is to offend their value. So you have to understand somebody's values and appeal to them. So the moral taste stuff, uh, it's uh chapter five of the book and On our physical tongues, we have five, maybe six. Taste receptor, sweet, salty, sour, bitter, umami, maybe fat.
um wired, and I'll get back to that in a minute, into our hearts and minds, we have six, maybe seven moral taste care, essentially whether somebody tends to uh others or whether um and sensitivity to suffering. Equity, which is a concern about equal outcomes, proportionality, which is a concern about merit and hard work, loyalty in group out group, authority, uh concern for hierarchies.
Purity, things that are sacred versus things that are degraded or disgusting, and liberty, essentially being free to live as you see fit. Um, two really important things. The first is that Uh research on twins shows that 30 to 60% of our sensitivity to these things is wired into us.
So I don't hate people because they're not seven foot six inches tall with red hair or four foot six inches tall with green hair. So if somebody's values are at least to a large degree wired into them, we don't have to judge those. We can simply observe them. And that's the first thing that when it's a values conversation, we think, well, my values are right and your values are wrong.
And I just observe people's values and appeal to them. The other tricky thing is that um people of different political persuasions, they tend to have uh distinct value sets. Folks who are more on the left. tend to be sensitive primarily to care and equity and like a certain kind of liberty, uh, which is different from conservatives who are sensitive to proportionality, loyalty, authority.
uh purity and a certain kind of liberty, um, which is more about like being free to do what you want as opposed to the the kind of liberty on the left, which is about kind of enabling people to be free through s say like a welfare program. Libertarians have an even narrower moral uh palette, which is just about liberty and proportionality.
There's not really any overlap on average, one average with folks on the left and the right. So one reason that it feels like, you know, we're passing in the night with political conversations is that we are, because people have different political values. So instead of judging that and saying I'm right and you're wrong, which again, this is largely wiring, what do you do? You understand and appeal to somebody else's value.
If somebody is really sensitive to say care or an unequal outcome, you don't have to say that it's wrong, that you're concerned with those things. You figure out how you appeal to their values. If someone is really concerned with authority or proportionality, whatever, hard work, then you simply appeal to those
What I like about this Taste Bud model is it actually orients us around what to focus on with our questions and how to understand those values in the other person instead of placing it on judgment immediately. And I think many of us look for identity markers instead outside of those taste buds. And if we approach it from the taste bud mindset, it allows us to start to see where there is more overlap than there is disagreement. And then of course we can appeal to those areas of overlap.
Yeah they're and The overlap can be on the values, which is powerful. There can even be overlap on your goals, what you seek to achieve, or even just observing a situation similarly. One of the hats I wear is in the policy space and For example, there is something called occupational licensing, which is a government permission sip to work in an industry. So I think that those burdens are oftentimes too big or maybe even unnecessary.
If I wanted to try to persuade somebody who is conservative that these burdens are bad, I would say this infringes on somebody's freedom to work and hard work should determine if you succeed in an industry. If I wanted to talk to somebody on the left about why I think these burdens are bad, then I would say, well, these burdens disproportionately hurt blacks and Hispanics. That's based on data from the Federal Reserve of Minneapolis. Again, grounded in fact.
So I'm making the same recommendation. Let's reduce these burdensome people. And I'm just framing that differently, whether you're conservative or progressive. And I don't don't have to judge somebody because their values are different from mine, whatever they whatever they are. I can simply appeal to uh to their values, even though I'm making the same recommendations. Framing is really important because if I frame something you like in terms you dislike, you're not gonna do it.
So now that you've mastered the art of persuasion, I'd I'd love to wrap with what was the one piece of advice that had the biggest impact on you early in your career as you were looking to become more persuasive?
I started this journey in earnest, really, when I started working in fundraising. And day two had a call with a colleague. She had been doing fundraising for about three decades. And the very first thing she said to me, we talked for An hour, hour and a half long conversation, and throughout that conversation she kept telling me it's about them, not you. It's about them, not you. And if I think back even to my very first job, which was I worked at um at Bingo at my church.
And I wasn't there was no wage. I simply worked based on tips. I was like 14 years old. And Um, how was I gonna get those tips? Well, I had to make sure that the old Moses ladies, you know, 65, 70-year-old ladies were happy with me. It was all about customer service. And they were, and I did pretty well on tips. So as this colleague kept telling me it's about them, not you, it's like, oh, and I once went to a donor meeting in Wisconsin, sat in this guy's office for about 90 minutes in his house.
And he talked like ninety percent of the time. And I at the end of the meeting I thought, Oh my God, you totally messed up. Isn't your job uh when you're selling something, in this case a nonprofit, it is isn't at the talk. And I'm like, oh man. And then he said, well, I have such a better idea what you all do now. And I thought, no, you don't.
And then it dawned on me, it didn't matter that I didn't say that my organization was great because of this and this reason. He felt connected to me and the organization. Oh. So as I learn to put them first and make it about them, not me, I form powerful relationships with people.
And they ended up giving way more money because I put them and their needs first. So really understanding that it's about them, not you, is at the heart of persuasion and it's the heart of getting what you want. And I'm so grateful to my colleague for just front and center putting it there in so many of our conversations, even after that very first one.
Whether it's tips, fundraising, sales, the easiest way to measure your persuasion skills is to get someone to part with their money. So it's amazing how much of these skills run the gamut through all of our experiences. I know Johnny has very similar experiences, myself included. Thank you so much for joining us, Josh. We really loved it. Where can our audience find out more about the book?
You can get the book anywhere. Books are sold, Amazon, Barnes and Noble. Wherever. Uh it's called How to Get What You Want, Master the Art and Science of Persuasion. You can find me on LinkedIn or at my website, joshuabandock.com. Would be happening to c to connect with people or uh hear more from them.
Thank you so much, John.
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