This podcast contains graphic descriptions, explicit language, and audio clips that may be disturbing to some audiences. Listener discretion is advised. Robert Lewis Stevenson wrote a novella called The Strange Case of Doctor Jekyll and Mister Hyde. The long and short of the story, without going into too much detail, is about a man with a dual personality. Doctor Jekyll is a well to do individual and is supposed to be the representation of a good person, while mister Hyde is
the pure embodiment of evil. Even his features. While resembling Doctor Jekyll ever so slightly, they take on more of a primitive look. Throughout the story, Jeckyll tries to keep Hyde at bay, but it proves to be extremely difficult. This is just fiction and not facts. Though we know that a person cannot physically transform into a monster, our features can not drastically change when our true nature takes hold of us. However, maybe a comparable transformation doesn't
occur on the outside, but on the inside. And maybe Stevenson never realized that his tale would have a baseline of fact. When it comes to the story we're about to discuss, You're listening to the Apex and the Abyss, and this is the story of Colonel Russell Williams. He was a killer with
the ultimate cover. As a base commander in the Canadian Air Force, Colonel Russell Williams comforted families of the fallen, rubbed shoulders with the Prime Minister, and even flew planes for the Queen, but no one, including his wife, knew that he was also a sexual, deviant, burglar, rapist, and murderer. This story's main player is a man by the name of Russell Williams. On paper before his crimes were revealed, Russell was a motivated and
accomplish man. Heard the Canadian Forces website long before his profile was taken down, it read Colonel Russ Williams enrolled in the Canadian Forces in nineteen eighty seven after obtaining a degree in economics and political sciences from the University of Toronto. He received his wings in nineteen ninety and was a flight instructor for two years
on the CTE one thirty four Beach Musketeer. By nineteen ninety nine, he was promoted to major and was a multi engine pilot career manager from two thousand and three to two thousand and four, he attended the Canadian Forces Command and Staff courses and he received a Master's of Defense Studies from the Royal Military College. After obtaining this masters, he was promoted to lieutenant colonel. In January of two thousand and nine, he was promoted to colonel after attending the Canadian
Forces Language School for six months. The final line of his profile reads a photographer, fisherman, and runner. Colonel Williams and his wife Mary Elizabeth are also avid golfers. But like previously stated on paper, Russell Williams is a decorated colonel in the Canadian Forces. He's well known and respected amongst his colleagues, peers and subordinates. He was loved and cherished by his wife. He
seemed like a truly wonderful man. What no one realized was that Colonel Russell Williams was leading a double life, a life filled with stalking, obsession, fetish and murder. It's a tragedy and the fact now that this has been identified as someone who might be Russell william was born in England on March seventh, nineteen sixty three, to Christine and Cedric Williams. Russell's father would accept a job at Chalk River Laboratories in Chalk River, Ontario, in Canada,
which prompted the family to emigrate to the Great White North. Not long after the family moved, the Williams welcomed another son named Harvey into the world. An odd situation occurred when Russell was a young boy after his family had moved to Canada. His parents would befriend the Sofkus family. Doctor Jerrysofkas and his wife would get close to Cedric and Christine So much though, that when Russell's parents divorced when he was just six years old, his mother would begin dating
and eventually marry Jerrysofkas, he had divorced his wife as well. Russell felt a close bond with his new stepfather. He would even for a time take Jerry's last name and become Russ Sofka's. When it comes to Russell's childhood, this is just about the most significant thing to occur. From all accounts. He grew up in a healthy and happy home. Russell's mother and stepfather traveled frequently for work while he was in high school. He would eventually get enrolled
in a boarding school to complete his education. While his parents were in South Korea. He did spend a year abroad with them, but he would later state that the experience was not pleasant. Later, at the boarding school back in Canada, Russell thrived. He was even made a prefect during his last year of school. Allegedly, Russell tended to keep to himself by just playing his trumpet or study for his classes at boarding school. Despite the fact that
he received good grades, he seemed to be a loner. After Russell graduated from high school, he enrolled at the University of Toronto again. While at the university, he excelled academically. He majored in economics and political sciences and received high marks in his classes. It seemed that going to college changed Russell. Russell would state that during this time he was mischievous and a practical joker. He loved playing pranks on people, but his roommate would sing a different
tune. In the beginning, when Russell first arrived at the school, he was rigid and cold, but something shifted. He became more lighthearted and decided to try and be a part of a group verses on the outside. During his time in college, Russell also went back to calling himself Russell Williams. However, the reasoning behind this is unknown. Perhaps because he was trying to evolve into a different person, he wanted to change everything down to his name,
a new persona. Perhaps some of the pranks that Russell would play on people wouldn't give a person a second thought, but what we would later find out about Russell it gives off a different feeling. One particular prank sticks out. One evening, Russell's roommate arrived back to their room late in the evening. Russell hid in the closet and waited. His roommate sat at his desk
and began to study. The roommate would later state that he was sitting there for at least a half hour before Russell came bursting out of the closet, effectively scaring the Bejesus out of his friend. Again, this seems fun and innocent, but could it be a precursor to what Russell would become. During his time in school, it was noted that Russell's family was not a big part of his life. His biological father had moved to the US for work,
and his stepfather and mother worked often in Korea. His roommate recalls bringing up his parents divorce and that it was a painful topic for Russell to speak about, as it typically would be for most children coming from that type of situation. Also, during college, Russell would have a girlfriend, but when the relationship ended, he was incredibly heart broken and sullen. He would attempt to win her affections back, but it would be no use. He would
begin going to her classes and following her around campus. It got to the point where she had to speak to his roommate to get him to stop. By nineteen eighty seven, Russell Williams joined the Canadian Forces and in nineteen ninety he received his flying wings. Soon thereafter, he would go to Manitoba and be a flight instructor for two years. During this time, Russell would find love again. He would meet and become involved with a woman named Mary Elizabeth
Harriman. The pair would wed in nineteen ninety one. Within the same year, Russell would rise to the rank of captain. Russell's time in the military was nothing short of spectacular. He flew numerous successful missions and received promotion after promotion. He was respected and adored by those who knew him. He was a star military official and nothing was in his Way. By nineteen ninety nine, he was promoted to major and was transferred to to be a multi engine
pilot career manager. A few years later, in two thousand and four, he would don the title of Lieutenant colonel and become the commanding officer of the four thirty seven Transport Squadron at the Canadian Forces Base in Trenton. By two thousand and nine, Russell Williams would become commander of the eight Wing Trenton. From two thousand and four to two thousand and nine, Russell would fly relief
workers to the Gulf Coast to help people affected by Hurricane Katrina. He would work a secret mission on the Persian Gulf, and he would even fly Queen Elizabeth the Second and Prince Philip while they visited Canada. Besides his thriving career, Russell's personal life was also splendid. He and his wife upted to not have children, so it was just the two of them, and they appeared
to be very happy. They shared similar interests and hobbies. They were always seen showing each other affection and smiling, the appear arts of a very healthy and balanced couple. In December of two thousand and nine, the couple had purchased Mary Elizabeth's dream home in Ottawa, something that Russell was ecstatic to give
her. Russell still worked at the base in Trenton during this time, which was an almost three hour drive from Ottawa, so to ease the burden of his travel, Russell and his wife had purchased a home in Tweed, Ontario, which is only about forty five minutes away from Russell's base. Russell would spend the week at his cottage and Tweed, and then on the weekends he would either drive to Trenton to spend with his wife, or Mary Elizabeth would
go to the cottage on the weekends. Not a typical or ideal scenario, but one net worked for them. They were extremely successful within their careers and very busy, so this schedule worked for them and despite the long distance and the separation, they were still very happy. However, this allowed Russell to have copious amounts of a lone time time in which he used to stalk and
burglarize from homes. From two thousand and seven to two thousand and ten, Russell Williams would commit unthinkable crimes as he was continuing on his trajectory of a rising military star. He was also breaking and burglarizing homes in his surrounding area, but what he stole and the acts he did within these homes is what makes him unique. Williams would wait until he was covered by the darkness of night before he would creep along the side of homes, sometimes while he himself
would be undressed. His voyeurism seems to be the cornerstone of all of this. It is unclear how long he was an active voyer. It seems odd and somewhat unlikely that he would begin doing such things in his forties, but regardless, this is what we know about him. Soon Russell would break into home when the occupants weren't there, and he would steal the underwear of the female residence. He would even steal the underwear of a nine year old girl.
What Russell would also do would be to document the things he did within the home in his journal and by taking photographs of himself. In some photographs, he can be seen masturbating on the bed of a young girl. As if this wasn't terrifying and disgusting enough. Sometimes Russell would even leave notes for his victims. On one girl's computer, he simply wrote Marcy after he stole
her underwear and rummaged through her room. Once Russell had taken the undergarments, he photographed himself wearing them, as well as performing sexual acts in them. His compulsion to break in and steal the personal effects of women was insatiable. He would spend his nights repeatedly breaking into the homes of his neighbors. Sometimes he would take nothing at all, and other times he would steal all the articles of underwear belonging to women in the home, and also things like sex
toys. Russell's perversion was growing almost as quickly and largely as his list of victims he was accumulating. In Ottawa and Tweed, authorities were well aware that they had a serial burglar on their hands, one that had a clear fetish for undergarments. He was becoming infamous and known as the Tweed Creeper. However, at this time, there was not a connection between the incidents happening in
Ottawa and in Tweed. Not yet anyway. By two thousand and nine, Russell's need to do more than steel underwear and commit perverted sexual acts in the rooms of the homes he burglarized finally came to a boiling point. In September of two thousand and nine, Russell would break into the home of a sleeping woman and her infant child. Russell would beat this woman while her child slept, and repeatedly raped her over the course of two hours. Within the same
month, he would commit a similar crime while he was in Ottawa. During both assaults, Russell would bind the woman's hands and he would also take photos of them throughout the duration of the attack. Two months later, in November of two thousand and nine, Russell Williams would commit his first murder. He would break into the home of an acquaintance named Marie Franz Como. The pair had met on a flight that they were both working on and briefly spoke to
one another. During this break in, Russell would brutally beat and rape Marie Franz. She fought him as hard as she could, but eventually he would suffocate her to death by placing duct tape on her mouth and nose. At the end of January in two thousand and ten, Russell would break into the
home of twenty seven year old Jessica Lloyd. Similarly to his attack on Marie Franz, Russell would beat and rape Jessica, but instead of leaving her in her home, he would force her to come with him back to his home and Tweed. While in Tweed, Russell would continue to assault Jessica. She tried to be as compliant as possible in the hopes that he would release her. He had covered her eyes with duct tape, so she had not seen
his face. Unfortunately, Russell had other intentions. He would beat Jessica over the head with a flashlight and then suffocate her to death. He would leave her body in his garage at his home and Tweed before heading to work for the day, and then spending the weekend in Ottawa with his wife. When he finally returned to his cottage and Tweed, he would gather Jessica's body and dump her in a wooded area. At this point, Russell is confident that
he will never be caught. He has gotten away with salacious crimes over numerous years, and now he had committed two murders with no end to his crimes in sight. Thankfully, he was wrong about that. Jessica Lloyd's had not been found, so her case was considered a disappearance. The Ontario Provincial Police or the OPP were doing everything in their power to try and find Jessica.
What they initially discovered by her house were unique tire treads, so the OPP put in place a canvas of any motorist who used the highway by Jessica's home. On February fourth, two ten, around six am, Russell Williams was stopped while driving his Nissan Pathfinder, the same vehicle he used the knight of Jessica's abduction. During his stop, Russell tried to speed up the process by saying he was on his way home due to his young child being sick or
something along those lines. Whatever excuse he gave, it didn't matter. The OPP noted that his tire treads were unique and they matched the tracks found near Jessica's home. His vehicle also matched the one scene by witnesses on the night Jessica was abducted. These facts got the opp's attention. Russell Williams would be brought in for questioning on February seventh, two thou and ten. What you're about to hear are excerpts from that interrogation with OPP Detective Sergeant Jim Smith.
All Right, and again, um, like I said, this interview is gonna be very thorough. But again, I have a simple rule when I talk to people, it's I'm sure you're the same way I treat everybody with respect. I don't want to ask you if you do the same for me. Um, So what we're gonna do is we're gonna start off by going through what your rights are, Okay, just like everybody else. Okay, UM, if ever been read your rights before, I'm sure you've seen on
TV you whole bunch of times. But that's usually the American version. So I'll go with you briefly. Okay. Basically in Canada, as you know I'm sure is we all have our rights guaranteed under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Okay, Now, Russell, just to avoid any confusion, because people do get confused when they're talking to you by the police, is that you're obviously now under arrest here today. Okay. Anytime you feel you want to leave here, you feel free to do so. The door's not locked,
Resoli, walking down to lobby anytime you want. Okay. If there's anything that comes up on our interview today, Russell, that that you feel you want to talk to a lawyer about. Um, you just you just let me know, okay, And the reason for that is I want to explain to you exactly what's going on here, okay, Um, Jessica Lloyd is is one of four cases that we're currently investigating, okay. And essentially what's happened is over the past about four or five months, there have been
four occurrences that, like I said, that we're looking into. Two of those occurrences occurred in September of two thousand and nine, and very briefly, they were up in the Tweed area. They involved somebody entering two different women's houses in the evening hours and committing sexual acts. Okay. In November two thousand and nine, young lady by the name of Marie Franz Como, Yeah, was found murdered in your home and bright and we believe that there was
a sexual component to that crime as well. And then most recently we have Jessica Lloyd's disappearance. Okay. So essentially, when you're looking at those kind of crimes, we're looking at a number of different potential criminal charges, all right. We're looking at issues all the way from the most serious one, which is first to re murder, kidnapping, sexual assault, break and enter
with intent to commit sexual assault, forcible confinement. Okay, And so what I don't want to make sure you understand and who is what we're doing with everybody've been talking to, is that clearly, when we find out who's responsible for one or all of those crimes, they could be charged with one or all of those offenses. Okay, whether it's you or whether it's anybody else.
Right, And that's why it's important that we make sure that people understand what they have to do and what they don't have to do when they're talking to us. Okay. So, as I said, before any point today you feel the need you want to speak to a lawyer, you let me know and we can take you to a room where you can do that in private. Okay. Do you have your own lawyer, a reality lawyer?
Okay? All right, If at any point you want to make that call and you don't know who to call, we have a phone list of lawyers that are available to give you advice free of charge, right over the phone. Okay. So again, if at any point today you want to take advantage of that, you just let me know. Is there any reason you want to call a lawyer? Now okay. A couple other fairly simple and straightforward the things that you probably understand, but again we go over them to
make sure everybody's clear. Is it. You don't have to speak to you today, okay. And the reason for that is because the law considers me to be what we refer to as a person in authority okay, probably similar to what you may be considered to be on the base. And because of that, I can be compelled to appear before any judge in the country basically to account for what takes place here today between you and I. Kay.
And that's the reason why everything's recorded, because there can't be any more accurate record than that, right. So, And the other thing I want to make sure you understand is that you know you mentioned a second ago about Miss Coomo being one of your work associates. So I don't know what's happened since
November on the military side of things. But what we want to make people clear on is that if you have been spoken to by any person authority or any police officer about any of those cases, I don't want what they may have said to you to make you feel influence or compelled to say anything to me. Today. Okay. Whatever you might have felt the influence or compelled to say to them earlier, you don't have to repeat it to me,
and you don't have to say anything further. Throughout the interrogation, Russell has his arms tightly crossed on his chest. The detective asks him about his whereabouts during the night of Jessica Lloyd's disappearance. So, just getting back to these four incidents that we're talking about, maybe you could just give me a little bit of history as to uh, your arrival in the in the base in
Trenton, When did you start working there? Friday? On the day I was m Friday on the day I was at home most most of the day I had a star a stomach food okay in Ottawa or tweeting tweet and tweet okay. Uh So with backtrack, then, so all day Friday you're at home and then what time do you leave to go to the base to sleep
there on the Friday night? Um M, I'm not sure. Probably just you know, waiting for just before bad They're probably that tweeted between eight and nine or so, okay, um And you get to the base and spend the evening there and get up for the five Yeah, okay, so we backtracked from there. Um, you when did you arrive at your home at the cottage? I wonder I want to get confused between your home and Ottawa and the home I have been in Tweet a week? Yeah, the week
prior now, Um, yeah, I think that's the case. Didn't tweet a week? Flu? Saturday? Saturday? Okay? So um, if you didn't have the stomach flu on the Friday, what was your schedule that day? Okay? Um? What wouldn't do my schedules just to standard schedule in the office. Okay, so brief in the morning A couple of weeks, I can't remember what okay, So, um, Thursday night you slept at Tweet or you? Yeah? All right? And what did you Thursday? During the day? Thursday? During the day, I was at the
base. Again, Um, I think it was a very standard day. I can't recall exactly, but yeah, it was not a fun So I was in the base, so I would have gone in early in the morning back in the evening. Again, okay, do you remember what time you left the base at mate? I don't remember anything peculiar, so I would say I don't know, probably seven to nine, somewhere in that range. That's when you left the base and what it was forty five minute transits,
forty five minutes home. Okay, okay, yeah, I'm not not going to walk you through November, but I'm going to take you to a date that's probably pretty fashion your mind. The day that that re Frons call Um, do you remember how you found out? I was sent an email. Well, as soon as the off staff in the base learned. Okay, so I got an email. I can't remember if it was late at night or in the morning. It was certainty I saw it. I wannestly first
thing in the morning because I had just come back from Ottawa. Authorities know that Russell is involved in some way, but during the beginning of the interview, he remained firm that he did not know Jessica Lloyd and had only met Marie Franz once. Russell most likely was confident that he would get away with his crimes, so much though, that he willingly agreed to give up his
DNA and even his shoes to have them molded for a print. What would you be willing to give me today to help me move past you in this investigation? What do you need? Well, would you be willing to supply things like fingerprints, blood samples, things like that? Yeah, ok footwear impressions, yeah, Okay. One thing that Russell asked the detective is that he give him some discretion. He doesn't want people to know he is there
and being questioned about these crimes. Can I assume you're going to be discreet? It's possible, Yeah, because I have a very significant impact on the basis well Bottle and Russell. That's one of the reasons we're hearing a Sunday afternoon. The military certainly be a great assistance to us, especially in a relation to Miss Colwell's investigation. So that's certainly one of the things that went into our decision to give you a call at home day and see if we
could deal with us today. Detective Jim Smith keeps pushing Russell, asking him if he has any relations to the victims whatsoever. This is a significant investigation, as you can as as you can well imagine um that that DNA is going to be significant in our investigation, both you know, quite possibly to help you, quite possibly to help us. I don't know yet, I don't know we resulted yet and I'll go back to the example I gave you because it's a very similar issue, I think. And you talked about the
idea of discretion here. Okay, you talked about the idea that, um, you know, I think hopefully you appreciate the fact of how we approach you here and essentially we have no issues with that. Okay, we talked recently about, you know, the whole idea of any unusual sex acts of your history. But another thing can often happen in cases like this is the people become concerned about things like extra mertal fears, indiscretions along those lines.
Is there any contact that you may have had with any of those for women that you may not want your wife to be aware of, anything like that that we should know about to try and explain why if if your DNA is found, it would help us understand why it may be. They're absolutely Can you think of any reason, um, why we would find your DNA ana of load residences? Let's let's focus on well, for instance, uh, I believe, let me just check the name there and make sure about the
right eyels. Talking about the house. It was just a couple of doors down from you there and in tweet A couple of doors down, Lea. I don't know her last name. I don't know Maskati. I don't even know if your last name is. But there's the woman down the road, three doors down. Her name is I would just make sure we're on the same page. Here my understanding. If she lived at the seventy six cozy Cove. Yeah, so she would be the one, the second one,
the second incident on your on your road. There a couple of doors down. I've ever been in your house. No, we met her once. I think the first summer. You were okay. And that's what I'm getting at. I again, this is a credibility issue right now, because I don't want to come and see you two weeks from now and say, you know rust our CSI people in that house, and are you familiar with Holsey
DNA works? I think broadly yes. Um. One of the challenges we have in two thousand and ten with DNAs has become so precise that I guess the best way to explain it is, I can think about fifteen years ago when I started in violent crime investigation. For us to get a DNA match, the sample we had to find was, you know, probably filled half of one of these cups, you know, because they destroy so much of
the sample in the in the testing. Essentially, DNA has become more and more precise, to the point where when you and I walked in this room earlier today, we could have sat down, talked for thirty seconds, walked out. CSI officer could have come in three or four days from now done some swabs here, and he would have found your DNA and my DNA and
probably a lot of other people's DNA. Sure, a little bit girls to think about, but essentially, uh, you know, as we talk, when you know a little bit aspirate comes out of our moment, that that contains our DNA, or bloods our skin cells contain our DNA. And that's what I'm getting on. If you were ever in Laurie's residence, quite possibly quite innotiently, your DNA could be in that residence. Has there ever been
a time you've been in there? Okay? Um, what about the other lady down the road on I hadn't even heard that name, so no, I don't, I don't actually know that was Okay. Have you ever visited Ree France Como with her residence? Okay, all right. Um, so you're quite positive there will be no reason why your DNA would be any of those three locations. Okay, Um, did you know Jessica Lloyd even in passing for any reason? No, I didn't hurt hear her name. So
it was on the news. And the reason I'm asking that is because I know you were asked that question on Thursday night. And sometimes what we find and again, this is one of those situations that can sometimes cause us to get in a lengthy investigation in somebody that maybe doesn't deserve it. But what can happen sometimes is they, you know, somebody get stopped by the police like you did, and they get asked that question and people want to stop
by the police. That can be nervous. Okay um, So they blurted out an answer and then they start driving away and they why do I do that? Because the problem is is it once they get asked again, then they feel compelled to me tain that answer for fear that if they change their answers, somebody could find it. You understand what I'm saying. I do. Okay, So I want to make sure that's not happening here. I don't care what you said to the officers on Thursday night and last week.
If there's any communication or contact between you and Jessica Lloyd, have you've seen her picture right right now? Ever seen her before? I Smith does his best to try and establish a timeline that will clear Russell's name. He attempts to determine his whereabouts by inquiring about Russell's swipe card on the base, among other things. I think you were talking about the whole idea of the MP's helping us with our investigations. Sobody is you have the same system as we
do with our headquarters with the swipe cards. One of the things one of our investigators is they made a call while I was talking to you there because we were trying to work through that week of the twenty three November twenty three b in the Monday twenty fourth being the Tuesday. UM. What they've what they've told us is that I want to make sure you get this right, is that on the twenty third, your sweite card was being used at the base. Okay, Okay. On Tuesday twenty fourth there was no use of
your swept card okay. And then on the following days the Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, UM, there was what appeared to be average activity of your swept Kerma base. Does that make sense to you? It does? That says that I was in Autawa on the Tuesday. Okay. Do you remember where in Ottawa you work? Yeah? I was in Gatino, as I said, meeting about the C seventeen. Okay. Um, Now again I want to be fair here, But going back two months, are you sure
that would have been the day you were in Ottawa? Well, only because I wasn't with the base, Okay. So I can't remember honestly that that's the day I had the meeting in Ottawa. But if I wasn't at the base, it was because I was here. Okay. Now, if that is the day I had a meeting in Ottawa, m do you remember being at the base on the Monday the twenty third and swiping your card in an out Do you remember what you would have done that evening to get too Outawa
for that meeting? Like, would it be I drove to Ottawa in the morning of the day of my meeting, So if it was the Tuesday, then I would have left tweet. It was a very foggy morning, Okay, that morning I drove in that morning Okay. So I would not have been at the base the day I was in because the meeting started. Okay, so you leave the base, you would have went home to your residence and tweet, and then you left tweet in the morning and drove up to
your meeting in Ottawa. Okay, Um, you leave the meeting in Ottawa. Is a daytime meeting and eating meeting or do you remember it was a daytime meeting finished afternoon or Okay? We had lunch and then finished. I think my wife and I had dinner because she was here for working. Then I handed back. Okay. Um, well that's these are the kind of things I'm trying to draw out here that's helpful to us. Um. Do
you remember where you had dinner? Uh? Well, I don't remember exactly the restaurant, but it was in Westboro because that's where our house was being built at the time. So we had dinner, you know, in a restaurant that we would expect to be able to frequent. Okay, remember how you paid one of us was paid by master cry. Okay, are you sure about that? Or I'm pretty sure that's normally how we paid for me. All right. I can't remember if it was me or my wife.
They paid that one of us. Okay, And do you remember which restaurant it was? Again? All right? And you see what I'm getting at, right? I mean that can be very helpful for us, because if we can track that issue, right, we can we can put somebody paying for a meal at a location I was meeting with, you know, fifteen people, so that day, so okay, what time did the meeting end? I would say between three and four? Okay? And are you sure
that that's the same day you went up with your wife? Well? I think so because she was here and I think that was the day we went to this restaurant and Westbury Okay. Um, you finished dinner? And do you remember what you did that evening? I? Okay? And you would have Now again, I know we're talking two months ago here, but do you remember specifically having dinner and then driving back to Tweet or do you remember?
Are you just guessing here? No, I'm not really guessing. I mean I believe that this night at this restaurant was following the meetings in Ottawa. What Russell doesn't realize, and it is one of the reasons as to why he is being questions is because his pathfinder was seen driving off road near Jessica's house. When asked if this was him, he said no. Despite this, the detective doesn't lie to him and tells Russell that a lot of
the evidence is pointing back to him. I told you when I came in here that I'm now treat you with respect, and I've asked you to do the same for me. We talked about the whole idea of how we've approached you here, okay, trying to be as just weird as possible. Okay. But the problem is, Russell, is every time I walk out of this room, there's another issue that comes up. Okay. And it's not issues that point away from you. It's issues to point at you, Okay,
And I want to I want you to see what I mean. All Right. This is the footwear impression of a person who approached the rear of Jessica Lloyd's house on the evening of the twenty eight and twenty ninth of January. Okay, all right, Now, I want you to keep in mind that this is slightly smaller, okay in scale. Okay, okay, all right, that's not to scale. That's the footwear is absolutely bigger. If you look here on the ruler, you'll see that one inch is just slightly
smaller than an actual inch. Okay, but this is the way of prints off on the computer. Move this over so you can see what I mean. All right. Essentially, when you're dealing with footwear impressions, we have a gentleman on the opp who's basically world renowned. His name is John Norman. And essentially with footwear impressions, you're in a situation where you're you're pretty
much in the area of a fingerprints. Okay, And essentially what we're talking about here is especially when you start adding in other pieces of information that support an investigative position. Okay, this is a photo copy of the boot that you took off your foot just a little while ago. Okay, Now I'm not an expert in footwear impressions, so I rely on the experts. Footwear
impressions are very much like like fingerprint comparisons. Okay, you take a look at this print, and again, this is one print this person walked through. There's several different prints to compare, So we're gonna get features off a one print to compare features off another print, to compare these are identical. Your vehicle drove up the side of Jessica Lloyd's house, Your boots walked to the back of Jessica Lloyd's house on the evening of the twenty eighth and twenty
ninth of January. You want discretion. We need to have some honesty, okay, because this is this is getting out of control really fast, rustle, really really fast. This is getting beyond my control, all right. I came in here a few hours ago and I called you the way I called you to day because I wanted to give you the benefit doubt. But you and I both know you're at Jessica Lloyd's house, and I need to know why. When presented with a plethora of evidence against him, Russell has
stumped into silence. You can see him trying to remain stoic, but he's working out what to do in his head. At this point in the interrogation, Detective Smith lets Russell know that a search warrant has been issued to look into his home, but more importantly, his wife is now aware of what's going on with him. Detective Jim Smith is outstanding during this questioning. He knows exactly how to work Russell without spooking him into silence or luryering up.
He gently needs on the fact that Russell clearly loves control, and he works that treat against him. He presents Russell with the option to confess to his crimes. Russell, sitting there, still silently, staring at the floor with his arms crossed, has very few options at this point. You know there's only one option. Do you do you what other option is there? What's the option? Well, I don't think you want the cold blooded psychopath option.
I might be wrong, because I don't get me wrong. I've met guys who actually kind of enjoyed the notoriety, got off on it, got off on having that label. Bernardo BM, I don't see that new. If I saw that new, I wouldn't be back. And you're talking to you quite frankly. But maybe I'm wrong. Maybe you got me fooled. I don't know. This is over, and it can have a a bad ending where Jessica's parents continue to wonder where her daughter's lying. I don't know.
I mean, obviously there's a huge search still underway, and it'll continue, it'll continue until her body's found. That might even happen tonight for all I know. Again, the detective pushes him and asks him what is he going to do. Russell remains silent for a time and repeatedly sighs before his saying, you can just call me Russ Russy. Maybe this is what help.
Can you tell me what the issue is you're struggling with. Russell goes on to explain that his main concern is what this whole situation is going to do to his wife and what they're going to do to the house. He doesn't want detectives to destroy the house looking for evidence, because the one in Ottawa is his wife's dream home. He wants to keep it that way.
The detectives begin to talk to him about what evidence they're going to find and how easily they will be able to recover things that may have been deleted from things like computers or hard drives, as d cards on cameras. At this notion, Russell begins to feverishly rub his forehead in distress. He states again how he wants to minimize the impact fact this whole thing has on his wife, to which the detective asks him to tell him where Jessica's body is.
So, what am I doing? Rust? I put my best foot forward here for you, But I really haven't. I don't know what else to do to make you understand the impact of what's happening here. Did we talk M minimize the impact on my wife? So do I? So we do that. Let start by telling the truth. Okay, Sorr? Is she? Oh? I don't know? Um? Is she close to where she lives? I've got maps of that general area? Which town is she here?
Why don't we start there? I'm not sure if you give me a map, but it covers you already the highway and order to tweet, and so I'll show it. Let me see what I got here. I might have something. Is she inside outside? Mm hmmm, it's probably the biggest area I have there for us anymore? We need a real man. So where am I going on on here to get to her? Its black here? Okay? So you're pointing to where she is? Okay? She close to a road? All right? Um? Is it something? Where is
she? Is she buried? Or she somewhere where if you walk there you would you would rearely easily see her gets here? Okay? So she's self the seven h east of Tweed, west of forty one, And what's this road here. I'm not sure either mine. Okay, I'll be right back. Okay, do you any water or anything? Sure? Okay, I'm pretty bad. How long has she been there? For? Over a week?
Was it fairly quick? From the time she left Friday night? Russell shows the detective on multiple maps where her body is located, and then begins to describe what happened to Jessica on the night of her kidnapping and murder. What do you want to talk about? What are you open right? What do you want to know? Well? Do you want to work forwards or backwards? Because why do we start with Jessica? How does that start for you? Um? I saw her in her house on her tread not Wednesday
nnies, and I noticed she wasn't there Thursday. So I got into the house look around then and they left. I notice she'd come home, So I went back in through the back patio door while she was sleeping. M hm. So I woke her up. I didn't I can hear her? She don't want to hear once Friday night? Okay, Well, so I raped her in her house and then I took her to the car and took her to tweet m and spend the day in tweet and then I hit her as we were walking. She thought we were leaving, hit her in the
back of the head. Okay. He then begins to describe the murder of Marie France. There was an open window in the basement of her house and she was awaiting. I went in there a couple of nights before she came home around I went back in there late at night when she was at home. She was on the phone in her bedroom. She actually discovered me in the basement. She was trying to get her cat to come upstairs, and the cat was in the basement that see me and was succeeded on me in
the corner. She couldn't get the cat up, so she came downstairs trying to get the cat. And I'm not more sure why she came over to me. I guess the cat was staring at me, and she was wondering where the cat was staring at once run MH. So when she spotted me, I am, I had the same flashlight. I subdued her, tied her up upstairs, and strangled her later in the morning or suffocated her.
H's some tape after them. M How do you subdue her. And when you say subdued her in the basement, would you do, well, I have the same flashlight, and you know she she saw me right away. So it's just I hit her a couple of times round her head, try and knock her out. Didn't, but she was bleeding a little bit. Eventually Drew struggled subdued any blood from from that struggle? No, not not a whole bunch, but a flashlight did break her skin a couple of times.
Okay, what area of the basement did that take place in? I was hiding behind the furnace, so she spotted me right there. Okay, she recognized Now I had stuff on my face. Um, so you go upstairs and you said she suffocated, Well, I suffocate her. Put tape on her. I put tape on her mouth, and then I put tape on her nose. How that there so she couldn't breathe? Um? What kind of tape was it? What happened to it? M uh with me? And I can't I can't remember what actually I did with that tape,
but probably through the did you just tape for any other purposes? Yeah? Okay? Um, did she ever recognize you through this? Whole episode. What did you say, your hat on your face? I just to cover it from my head, just to you know, sports pull over tape, just a little cap kind of okay, you know, whacker or something, and they just had band over career most everything. Put my eyes. Um, and this flashlight? Where is that now? In thuse? What kind
of flashla is? It's a red three w D sure my branded his bets and that old you know these women, it's like a big mh. Brandon, very crafty woman flush lights already still as a big um. Did you take anything out of Marie France's house or Jessica Lloyd's house? Uh? Yeah, some other underwear? Okay. After hearing the details of how Russell committed the crimes, the detective asked the question that was most likely on everyone's mind. Why did he kill them? Let me let me ask you this.
Did you like or dislike these women? I didn't know anything? Okay? How you found that one time? In that in her airplane? Okay, I guess, I guess from Yeah, when you're going through these things, um, are you? Well? Let me let's talk about Jessica, because she was there with you for the whole day, right, what kind of feelings were you were experiencing while you were with her that day? M hm? Oh she was a fresh friend. I can't tell me why you killed
her, right, do you know why you killed her? Well? I think I killed her because I knew that her story would be recognized, Her story would be recognized. How do you mean, wow, because she knew I was taking pictures? Mhmm. So because of the two yeah stories and tweet that would have been a fairly yeah. I'm quite obvious. So if you didn't take pictures, what would you have done with her? I don't know. I mean she's at your house, right, Um, well,
let let me ask you this is it? Two lived, right and two died? What's what was the difference in your mind between wow? The the attention the first two? God, m was very much focused on obviously for for all these reasons pictures I took, so anybody else telling stories about pictures? Right? What I mean from the street line. But when when this thing happened with Marie Franz, it was was did you believe that you were already a suspect for what happened in tweet? So what what were you concerned
about? Well? Because I was pretty sure that you know, she was serving military, right, I would have been, but it would have been difficult for investigators to ignore that connection. Okay, it makes sense. Um, let's go back to Jessica then, okay, Um, you see her on the Wednesday night? Okay, on I treadmill. How do you see hear? Here was in the basement? I do wide open? So drop by? Okay? Did you stop to look at the house or how does that catch your eyes? You drive by? I was looking to see who
who's where? I don't know that Verria very well, so I was just keeping my eyes open. Okay. During this part of the interview, Russell goes into detail about the rape of Jessica Lloyd, but some things are better left unheard. During the last stretch of the interview, Russell speaks more on the murder of Marie Franz. So, Marie Frantz, when did when did her first to Curredia to go to her house? Uh? Probably on October? Remember, not quite true some of that time. And do you really
remember why that you thought too? Um? Did do that? M h uh? Well, you know she had said she lived on the one time I met her. Mm hmm. Yeah, um, just trying why her versus you know, the dozens of other women you probably come across on a daily basis. I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I went up there when she wasn't home, just to see where she lived. M When did you do that a couple of months before? How did you know your address?
Right? Is there on the role for the basement? Okay, So when you go out there a couple of nights before, you remember what night that was you were there first time? I don't, but it was within two or three nights I think. Okay, well in more than four and something like that. And did you actually go into her house on that occasion or did you? Okay, so what happened that night? How did you How did you get into her house on the side of the basement side when
okay, just a backstep a bit. How did you get to her house that that first night you went there? I drove what did you drive? H h good, drove my truck kind of find her. Do you remember where you parked it? Yeah? I parked it a division in the residential areas. Harry parked it on another side six seven hundreds away okay, so not on her street, on different street. You remember what street you parked on, but it's actually might be the same street, but there's an interruption
in the street where there's a construction zone. There's a pathway in between, so I think it's probably the same street. Okay. So you go to her house and when you went there that night, did you know that she was away? I'm not sure if I knew entirely, but I think I thought she'd go away. Okay. Is that based on her schedule or I would I would you? Well, my, yeah, because I fly with the scholater and I have access to the schedule, and what could I say?
It slightly different schedules. But that's probably you don't know for sure. I think that's probably how I am. Okay, So you go to our house and what do you do that night? The first night? I looked around and I'm sure that she was living there around and I'm sorry, did you say I can't remember if you said, how did you get in? Same same way? Side basement side basement window? Do you remember what kind
of window it is? Like? What made it? Uh? Well, I just flash I see that it was not a lot to have been opened slightly, So I don't remember the screens that are open whenning. Okay, So you go in and you're in her house figuring out she lives along? And do you do anything that night? Yeah? I was playing with her kind of war you mean playing with her her wearing? Okay, doing anything else? I didn't touch her stuff. What do you mean you didn't touch
her stuff? I mean you touch her underwhere? But yeah, anything else? Did you take any of the underwear with you that night? Yeah? A few pieces. Where did you find the underwhere when you win it? True? Because it clean? Was it used for clean? Um? Anything else? You can remember doing that evening? You? M all right? So? Um? After that first visit, did you return again before meeting up with her? So which day did you go to her house when she
was there? Well, the night before I went out a while, so I think that was my Yeah, all right, So let's walk through that. What time do you think you got there? About eleven or so? Probably ten three eleven? Okay? So she was on the phone in her room. I could hear that from the backyard. I got in through the side window, the same basement window. How could you hear from the backyard? What was just hear her on the phone from beside the house, hear
through the walls that she was on the phone. Okay, any idea who she was talking to or what she was talking about here? That one? Okay? So you go in through the basic window and what are you wear it? And this is happening? Mm hmm. Let's sweatshirt, doctors, I guess. And the two pieces on my head? Where are those two pieces now, pieces that you were on the head, they're probably in my bag and my luggage banging edison in the bedroom. What does your luggage bank
look like? That's blue Deffel bag type of thing beside the bad They're the only blue Duffel bag in your bedroom? Um? And these pieces, what do they look like? Again? It's a blue head band now, okay, standard blue winter hid been and black skull cap than any insignias or anything on them? Yeah, there, but I don't know what they're. The blue hipben has something stands up stitched in the name of some sort of stitched on it, and the skull cap has some sort of emblem on the white
amblom on the blackness. Are they like sports emblems or company emblems or it's the manufacturers? Okay? Anything else? In that blue Duffel bay. Is it full of of things? Others? Okay? Um? Do you go in? Uh? Remember what you had on your feet in the house there any way to Marie France's house side, probably runing shoes. It wasn't snow on the ground. So you go in and you're in the basement and whereabouts in the basement right by the furnace. Okay, and what are you doing?
What's what's your what's your sort of plan? At that point I was waiting for a little bit, okay, And how long did that take? Well? She didn't, so then she came out of looking for the cat? All right? And what happens next? Unless it described subdued her ge a flashlight? H good? Essentially rustle her to the ground and tire up? What did you use? The tire up? Same rope, green rope? It's a tweet? Is it just a grain? Or like? How long does this piece of rope? It's probably twenty feet. It's a boot
boat rope. It's good. Some red specks and out of them the for lots of ropes and tweet or is this probably the only rope? H? No? This there are two months, two lengths of the same green rope and where they both used. Well, I I only ever had one with me, so I don't know if I was the same piece both times or not, but only two d okay, So you tire tire up? How did you tie her up when you obviously do that? Okay? And what is she wearing at that point? She wasn't wearing anything to start with it?
So when she came down to the basement, she had no clothes on. She had some sort of a shawler or her shoulder. Okay. She immediately dropped when she's hug Did she say anything? When she saw she did? She called out, you bastard? Okay? And then what happened? Then? I subdue by hitting her with that red flashlight okay. Oh they were or glancing lands and blows cut her skin, but weren't doing my chelsea. She fell over in the nice she tripped. How did you tie her
at that point? Like? I know you used the rope by boy? What did you tie her out? Like? Just put her put her pull her hands behind her back and just tie her miss together? Okay? And then what happened after that? Then I took her upstairs? Did she go upstairs under her own power. Did you carry her? No? She passed out to on the stairs, and then I carried her up. Why do you think she passed out? I expect from the h's true? So she carried up to where? And then what happened from the bed true period of
time. During the trial, more details of Russell Williams's crimes were revealed due to the fact that Russell had videotaped large chunks of his time with Jessica and Marie Franz. Some of the details referred to the extent of the sexual assaults and the coldness Russell showed both of the women he murdered. Marie Frantz brutally fought back against Russell. She called him a bastard and was not going to
go quietly into the night while he did what he planned on doing. Unfortunately, Russell was just able to overpower her after he got the jump on her. Marie Franz would state towards the end of the attack, You're going to kill me, aren't you have a heart? I don't want to die, I don't deserve to die. I have been good. Clearly, Russell Williams had no heart. During Jessica Lloyd's abduction, she would have a seizure,
something that she was prone to during high stress situations. During the seizure, she begged for him to take her to the hospital because she thought she was going to die, but Russell refused. Before Russell killed her, Jessica would say, if I die, will you make sure my mom knows I love her. Russell then proceeded to kill her. The fact that Russell documented so much of his crimes made it easy for authorities to link him to multiple burglaries,
as well as the murders of Marie Franz and Jessica Lloyd. In October of two thousand and ten, Russell Williams would plead guilty to all charges against him. He was charged with two counts of first degree murder, two counts of sexual assault, two counts of forcible confinement, and eighty two counts of
break ins and attempted break ins. On October twenty first, two thousand and ten, Colonel Russell Williams was sentenced to two life terms with no chance of pearl for twenty five years for the murders of Marie France Como and Jessica Lloyd. He was also sentenced to an additional eighty two years, one year for each of his other charges. During the final proceedings, Williams was given the opportunity to address the court and the public. He said, Your Honor,
I stand before you indescribably ashamed. I know the crimes I have committed have traumatized many people. The family and friends of Re France and Jessica in particular, have suffered and continue to suffer profound, desperate pain and sorrow as a result of what I've done. Numerous victims of the brake and enters I have committed have been seriously distressed as a result of my having so invaded their most
intimate privacy. My family, your honor has been irreparably damaged. The understandable hatred that was expressed yesterday and that has been palpable throughout the week, has me recognized that most will find it impossible to accept. But the fact is I deeply regret what I have done and the harm I know I have caused to many. I committed despicable crimes, your Honor, and in the process portrayed my family, my friends and colleagues, and the Canadian forces. After
the trial, Russell Williams's wife, Mary Elizabeth, filed for divorce. She has never made a public statement in regards to the actions of her husband and has maintained that she knew nothing about the crimes he was committing. Russell would also reach out of court financial settlements with members of his victims families for undisclosed amounts. The Canadian forces would denounce Russell Williams in every way that they could,
and rightfully so. They would burn his military uniform and strip him of his rank of colonel. However, he is still legally entitled to receive his military pension. Russell Williams was a different breed of deviant. It can be assumed that if he was not found out for what he was, he would never have stopped. His thirst for control, power and sexual perversion was not something he could ever quench. And he is exactly where he belongs, away
from the world and those he could hurt. Russell Williams, a Jecklin hide, if there ever was one, is living out the remainder of his days at a maximum security prison in Quebec. I dislike to say that it's good that justice has done for Jessica, for Marie France, for the two victims and tweet and for all the victims of his breaking editors and I'm glad it's over. We're just all thankful that it is over and we can maybe now
start to get on with our lives. Thank you for listening to this episode of The Apex and the Abyss. If you would like to reach out to the show, please feel free to write an email to Apex and Abyss at gmail dot com. You can also find the show on Twitter, Instagram, and Facebook if you prefer to communicate that way. You can also submit episode suggestions, as well as find links to everything mentioned above in the show notes and at apex and abyss dot com, as well as a link to another
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and for your support in telling these stories. Until next time. We've said it earlier this week. All committees are stunned by the tragic events that led to the condition of Russell Willis. The members of the Game Forces felled into the court. It is support to acknowledge that diligent police work ended his terrible pattern violence, and we the Game Forces want the express our gratitude to the
police forces involved. With the condition confirmed by the court, the Game Forces are now able to kick action, including the proper place of Russell Williams from the Armed forces determination and ball backer is paid from the data, arrest, the rule of his medals and all other measures available to us. To be clear, it will not be a separate military court martial as to being blow
clearly states that there cannot be two trials with the same crime. I also wish to point out that under the superabuation end there are no brows to revoke his pension, and then a court martial will not have any impact on these a crude benefits. I spent this morning here meeting with personnel of eight Wing and with members of the vocal communities in the face of the statement of facts
read in court and widely reported by the media. All of us will reflect, in part reflecting on the events that have taken place and are having trouble finding the right words express our feeling. The end of this trial and yet becoming sentencing will allow us military hand civilians alike to have a form of closure and to know or to now begin to focus on the aid. We recognized the need to come together and yield as a community. We are doing everything
we can to us as those in need of counseling or other support. In fact, we urged anyone who is feeling upset or concerned to seek assistance and to talk about their emotions. From what I've seen today at eight Win, while the our morale and says Comedians have been shaken, we remained steadfast in our commitment to defending Canada and Canadians. I'm so proud of the personality at eight Way facing the ordeal. They responded superbly by focusing on the operational mission
at hand and by redoubling effort and intensity. All the other Air Force wings across the country look to them as an example of determination. While doing so, we will not forget Madie Frans Cobo, Jessica Lloyd, and the other victims and their families. They will remain in our thoughts and prayers forever