¶ Learning How to Do Nothing
This week on a sleep-deprived . Episode 305 of the Anxious Truth , we're going to talk about the value of learning how to do nothing . It's the act of doing , not doing . My friend , joanna Hardis is here to help us with that , so let's get into it right now . Hello everybody , welcome back to the Anxious Truth .
This is episode 305 of the podcast , or the YouTube channel , depending on where you are consuming this content . We are recording in November of 2024 , in case you're listening from the future .
Today's topic , aided by my friend OCD specialist Joanna Hardest from Cleveland , ohio , is the value of learning how to do nothing , or , as it's sometimes known , doing , not doing , and why we should probably invest time and effort in learning how to do that .
If you are new to this podcast or this YouTube channel this is the first day here you kind of accidentally stumbled upon it , maybe in a YouTube or a Google search . Welcome , I'm glad that you're here . I am Drew Linsalata , creator and host of the Anxious Truth .
I'm also a therapist , still practicing under supervision for the time being in New York , specializing in the treatment of anxiety and anxiety disorders . I'm also a former sufferer of all the flavors of anxiety disorder and depression and OCD for many years of my life on and off , but much better now for many years . Thank you very much . I'm an author .
I've written three books on this topic . I'm a podcaster clearly psychoeducator , mental health advocate , social media guy all the things . But here , on the Anxious Truth , we're talking about anxiety , anxiety disorders and strategies for learning about it , understanding it and starting to work on overcoming these problems . So welcome if you are new .
Of course , if you're a returning listener or viewer , welcome back . I'm glad you're here . I hope you guys find today's episode helpful . What are we going to talk about ? We're going to talk about the value of learning how to do nothing . Some people call it doing , not doing . If you're familiar with Taoism or Buddhism , you may have heard doing not doing .
I believe that comes out of Taoism . What are we talking about when I say that ?
If you have been around long enough , around this podcast or the books that I write or the content that I create , you know that we talk all the time about learning how to not react automatically to anxiety symptoms , to panic attacks , to anxiety spikes , to scary thoughts if you happen to have OCD .
We are learning how to not do anything about those things , how to surrender to them , how to willfully tolerate them .
If you came here , through the work of Dr Claire Weeks , we're learning how to float and utterly , utterly accept , as she would say in her Australian grandma accent , and people will often say , ok , cool , I get why we'd want to do that , but what does that even look like ?
If you've ever wanted to know what does surrendering to anxiety or OCD or a panic attack look and feel like ? Learning how to do nothing , like undertaking , the formal practice of learning what nothing looks and feels like , can be really helpful because it helps you answer that incredibly common question . It may be completely out of the realm of your experience .
You have no frame of reference for doing nothing because , like any human being , especially in Western culture , we are constantly in problem solving and fixing mode .
So doing nothing , the act of doing , not doing , is all about becoming aware of that habit and working on suspending it so that we go from doing , which can be overtly behavioral or just mental mostly mental in our community into a state of not doing or just being . This is about learning to stop fighting against reality . Because it's here .
You have anxiety because you're listening to this podcast . Clearly you are an anxious person . It's already here . You cannot deny that reality . So how can you work with it better ?
It's about learning how you are a habitual doer , problem solver , fixer , because we all are , and if we can gain an awareness of that through the practice of learning how to not do things , we do give ourselves a better chance of starting to learn new ways to interpret and relate to and be with our anxiety , our anxiety symptoms , even our panic attacks , our OCD
scary thoughts , things of that nature , and we just get kind of better at doing life . So learning how to do nothing is a really valuable skill and today my friend Joanna Hardis has joined me to have this discussion . Joanna is awesome . She's one of those people that I trust implicitly . She's very well-trained .
She's a very experienced and ethical therapist specializing in OCD and anxiety disorders out of Cleveland . We have worked together in the past and I can't think of a better person . I can think of one other person I would have brought in in this conversation , but it's hard to coordinate the schedules .
But there's a person that I want to talk about doing nothing with . That would be Joanna . So she is here to help us out with the topic . Before I bring Joanna on , just a quick reminder . As always , the Anxious Truth is more than just this video or this podcast episode . There's a ton of more things all on my website at theanxioustruthcom .
I'm not going to pitch you , just head on over there if you want to check it out . Most of this stuff is free . All of it is at at least very low cost . I have nothing expensive there .
The books are cheap , so you can either find the rest of the podcast episodes or the free social media stuff or all the content I've created , or you might avail yourself of some of the low cost resources . But check it all out at theanxioustruthcom . I appreciate that , and if you're watching on YouTube , maybe like the video or subscribe to the channel .
That's a way to support the work that I do . If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify , maybe leave a four or five star rating .
If you dig the podcast or write a quick review , that's another way to support the work that I do and that costs you nothing , but it does help me out and therefore other people out , a lot , and I appreciate all of you guys , no matter how you support the podcast , even if it's just hanging out , watching a video or listening now and then .
So let's get to it . We're going to talk about the value of learning to do nothing . Let's bring Joanna on , and then at the end I will come back and kind of put a bow on it , as I always Come on , come along . Here we go , joanna what up ? It's been a while it's been a minute since we did one of these huh .
It has been way too long . You're too busy for . You're obviously too busy now .
I , I . It's very hard to get on my calendar . I'm that exclusive now .
I'm joking you have . It really is because it's been over a year .
Oh , it's probably since we did one of these like a podcast episode together , probably at least two years . I don't think we did one since I started my grad program .
No , no , you know , because when the book came out , oh , that's right , we did that
¶ Embracing Stillness in a Busy World
.
Yeah , what book did you write again ?
Oh , Just Do Nothing .
Just Do Nothing . It's a good book , people .
Thank you , thank you , yeah yeah , the paradoxical guide to getting out of your way .
If you go . I don't know what episode this is , I'm so woefully unprepared . But I will tell you right now that if you go to the anxious truth slash , this is episode three oh five . So I'm going to the anxious truthcom slash three oh five . I have links to join . It's a really good book .
I agree .
And it matches with today's topic , which is doing nothing . Before we hit the record button , joanna was like venting one of her little peeves to me and she has such an entertaining list of pet peeves .
But when you write a book called Just Do Nothing I mean we talked about it on a previous podcast episode I'll link that also in the show notes so you can listen to Joanna talk about that . But how do people misinterpret that ? What do they think you mean when you say ? What do you mean do nothing ?
What does that mean ? Well , what they , what the oh . They'll come up to me oh , I love this . You're telling me that I don't have to do anything . I love it . Tell my wife that now I don't have to do anything and they miss . It's like I just shake my head because I'm not really telling people .
They miss the whole second part , which is the paradoxical guide to getting out of your way . So they think what I'm advocating for is literally doing nothing , like kicking back and , just like you know , watching sports all day or Housewives or whatever , doing nothing . And that's not really .
I'm sure that's not what we're talking about today , even though you that's not what . I'm talking about . That's not how we get out of our way .
Yeah , we're not literally talking about like and you know what . It's funny because for people dealing with anxiety disorders , with highly avoidant coping strategies , that could go off the rails really fast . So , like these two people told me to do nothing , cool , I'm just gonna stay home all day and just read Right , yeah , we're not talking about that .
So , I'm glad we got to clear that up .
This isn't early retirement which is also what I get a lot of .
Episode 305 , early retirement , which is what I'm talking about . Do nothing , yeah no , with your family . Do nothing , yeah no , that's what we're talking about .
So when we're talking about doing nothing , I mean I have come to the conclusion that learning how to do nothing or , like you know I think it's the Buddhist or the Taoist will say it's doing , not doing .
You know , like learning how to be in not doing mode is one of those skills Like at least in the West , we should be teaching everybody from the time we're old enough to like toddle around the house . We should be learning how to not do , to do , do not do .
Yeah .
Yeah , otherwise , we're in constant doing mode all the time , and especially as adults , especially in a society that you know is always about improvement and achievement and goals and check boxes and all that stuff we're always in behavioral doing mode , but then there's the mental doing mode too . What does that look like for you when you're in mental doing mode ?
We all do it , by the way . Well , even we do it . Both of us do it .
Oh yeah , what does it look like for me when I'm in mental doing mode ?
Yeah , you could be sitting like literally just sitting on your sofa , but still be in mental doing mode .
Oh , yeah , I'm thinking . I'm thinking , I'm planning , oh yeah , I'm thinking .
I'm thinking , I'm planning , I'm replaying something , I'm daydreaming , I'm on vacation somewhere else . I'm just like . You know , I'm in my head . You know I'm in my head and you know , I think , from all of those things , all of the things I get , those , um , I also discovered I can't .
In the last few months , it dawned on me like , oh , I'm in constant judging mode , like mental doing is oh yeah , like evaluating , evaluating , yeah , because I'm deciding what I want and don't want . What do I like and don't like about this moment right now ? Is this good ? Yes , like , how do I change it to get what I want ?
Like , how do I resist what is because and don't want ? What do I like and don't like about this moment right now ? Is this good ? Yes , like , how do I change it to get what I want ? Like , how do I resist what is because I don't like what it is and I want something different ?
Like you know , we get in our own minds yes , doing mode , that's doing mode , that's difficult .
Yes , yes , yes , yes , even even like it's gray in Cleveland right now and it's raining and and I was a vet , like you know , hating on the weather- yeah , which is like you could not like , though it's nothing wrong with not liking the weather , but how much time and effort do we like automatically put in the resistance ?
There you find yourself like overly hating the weather , getting a little too carried away with hating on the weather .
Yes , and then it's the oh my gosh . It's the start of winter and it's the next five months , and why am I still here and why aren't I spending the winter somewhere else ? And it's like this whole story about the winter that I get into . And clients get into .
Yeah , that's a tough one . So , and I think it's it's human nature , we all do it . This isn't like oh , you're broken if you do that , cause we all do it by default . That's the way it goes . Brains aren't meant to be quiet , they're meant to be active . That's their job . Yeah , well , I get it .
One suggestion would be to just come to Long Island for the winter , cause you know it's very tropical and sunny here in the winter .
Yeah .
I'm lying it's not .
No , I know it's not .
We're both screwed . But isn't it funny how , like , you look out the window or you get up and you check the weather and momentarily you do have an opinion about the weather , which is okay , but then that goes into like a 90 seconds or two minutes of unconscious like , oh , you know , you know be so much better to be in Florida or someplace warm .
I hate it . This sucks . Like now I have to get my winter clothes out and now you're living in February already where you have seasonal affective disorder and you want to , like you know you're like no motivated , sitting on the sofa overeating . Wait a minute , what just happened ?
Exactly . And then I'm on a tangent in my own head about , you know , seasonal affective disorder . Do I know how to like ? Is that real ? How much of that is real ? How do I treat it ? Like I can just like go on and on in my own head and I have a like fairly consistent meditation practice and then I'm hating .
Then I'm like why , you know , I know how to like . I have a pretty good mindful awareness practice . Like how am I getting lost in this shit so regularly being critical of myself , like it's so yeah this is so relatable Same thing , we are very similar .
Like I practice every day . I'm actually doing the whole MBSR teacher training thing , so I'm spending I'm literally spending a lot of time every day doing the exercises . This morning I'm in the middle of like mindful yoga . I'm supposed to be concentrating on how my body feel , the movement in space and zoning , and I'm no joke , this is legit .
I found myself wondering if you had new glasses , cause I haven't seen you in a long time . We haven't recorded . I'm like , oh , I wonder if she has new glasses . What a random , ridiculous thought . Like I'm really not worried about your glasses , but I know you wear glasses .
And my mind went to like I'm going to record later with Joanna , like I wonder if she has new glasses . I don't know why I thought that , but I did and it was like I don't know how long my brain was there . So I'm doing yoga but my mind is literally thinking about your eyewear . I mean , come on , brain .
Really yeah it . I mean , come on brain , really yeah , it's so funny .
So I think it's okay to acknowledge that our brains are built to be in constant doing mode , but that can get us into trouble , because now we're problem solving where we don't need to be . And from my take , the reason why I think we should all learn how to just be , which is the opposite of doing .
Just being is like life is full of realities that we don't really want or like , but we can't do anything about them . And then , when we're in doing mode , behaviorally and mentally , we're resisting what is .
Right , but I think for a lot of clients and I think this is where it may be different for you and I because we're at a different point in our recovery I hear from a lot of clients at a different point in our recovery . I hear from a lot of clients . They are like I hear all the time I'm scared to be alone with my thoughts .
Yeah , oh yeah , a hundred percent Like . So when we introduce mindfulness practice into , say , therapy , I do have clients that are like I mean they want to , but they're also really surprised at how difficult it is to hear that thinking , actually hear it .
Yeah . So I think it's the question of it . May be it may sound really great in theory and people may be like , oh yeah , I totally am down with what they're saying , but what is the obstacle that gets in someone's way ?
Whether it's , like you know , people think it's just an absolutely unproductive use of their time these relentless optimizers or people who are just terrified of being alone with their thoughts . Or , you know , it's someone who says , like I can't possibly sit still , or you know .
So I think that that is , you know , something that we you know that figuring out what it is for whatever individual person .
That is . Those are the common obstacle I'm just afraid to be . Especially , we're treating people with anxiety disorders . That's a big deal . I'm going to hear my intrusive thoughts . I'm going to hear the scary thoughts . I'm going to hear the catastrophic thoughts .
Yeah , true , Even for non-anxious people that don't have anxiety disorders , it's really difficult for them to sit and hear their thoughts . And I think the other thing that they wind up doing , whether they're anxious or not , I know for most of my clients that start to try this stuff , it is well , it's not working .
It's the expectation of what it's supposed to be , but you don't understand . Like 10 minutes into it , my mind was wandering and I was just worried about what I was going to make for dinner . I'm like , yeah , I know that's , that's the practice , it's okay .
Yes , yeah .
Yeah , yes .
Yes , this doesn't . This doesn't work for me .
Right , it doesn't work . This isn't going to work for me . Yes , yeah . What do you think the misconception is about ? Like when you'd say like , hey , we really need to learn how to go into not doing mode , what ? What is the biggest misconception about what that's supposed to do that you find ?
I think that people either believe that they're supposed to , that they still are in an outcome mode , that they're supposed to come out of it because they see all this bullshit on social media , that they're supposed to be calm Afterward they're going to be , like you know , zenned out or calm or relaxed , and when they're not , they think that it was a waste of
time .
Yeah .
Because they're not calm .
Right , because they're looking for a particular outcome ?
right , Exactly , yeah , Versus that , you know , mindfulness is the work Like it is .
¶ Embracing Mindfulness Without Expectations
It is , and you know , that's why I think of it as a as a fitness skill , Like it's a mental fitness skill , and it's work , mental fitness skill and it's work to constantly and that's why I like this . It's when people call it attention training , because you have to constantly train your brain to come back .
Yeah , yeah , you find these principles in a lot of different if we're just talking about like therapy and treatment , like they're in a lot of therapies . For sure , you know , metacognitive therapy is a big component of that is attention training .
It doesn't look like traditional meditation and mindfulness , but it's the same thing . I think it is anyway . Oh , yeah , yeah .
Yeah , yeah .
And I think it's work . But I think , if someone is going into it and they , and , they , and , and , and they're expecting something , but again that's the doing mode that they have an expectation of how they're supposed to come out of it .
Yeah , I agree . I think they're either looking for like a state this is supposed to make me calm or this is how I quiet my mind . The number one question . People ask me oh , you meditate all the time . Yeah , I have a daily practice , I have for many years . People ask me oh , you meditate all the time .
Yeah , I have a daily practice , I have for many years . How do you quiet your mind ? Well , I don't like . Often , I don't the . The practice of not learning how to be nonjudgmentally with your noisy mind is the practice . That's the . If there's a goal , that's what it is .
Yes , yeah , Can I just be aware of the fact that my mind is noisy and that's okay .
Right , right , because those are kind of I don't know if they're the same people , but also people that when they're , when they notice that , they're really anxious and then they'll say well , in that moment I tried meditating and it's like no , no , no , that was me .
I was a compulsive meditator when I was at my worst .
Yeah .
I was trying to meditate it away and that got so frustrating . So , yeah , that's not what we use this for at all . Yes , if you're listening to this odds , are you dealing with a chronic or disordered anxiety problem ? No , do nothing is not a technique that makes your anxiety go away at all .
Yes , yes .
The other thing that I found really interesting . And look we're . But we talk about this all the time , you and I , when we get on our phone calls and just rant .
But the messages that surround things , like being present , being present , that is a key part of it , that's correct , but that gets twisted into an aesthetic , almost Like being mindful , and the practice of doing , not doing , does not have an aesthetic , it does not have a look , it does not have a lifestyle .
I mean , actually I don't know if that's true , because what I'm learning in MBSR training is it is a little bit of a lifestyle , it's borderline cultish . We'll talk about that some other day but at the same time , like there's no aesthetic , there's no goal , there's no outcome , it doesn't have to look or feel a certain way .
We're trying to learn to just be aware that we're always thinking , doing and feeling lots of different things and that's okay . Like it's the awareness machine , we start to learn . If you learn to do not do , you start to be able to watch the machine work without getting swept away by it .
Right , right . And then you were . I think you think you know this is the hard it's kind of , and because I feel like this is the first step is like being able to observe . Being able to observe , you know , kind of the circus that goes on internally and then being able to live your life while all of this stuff is happening .
Yeah , that's exactly true . We always talk about things like can you bring the feeling with you ? Yes , Because it's here anyway . Trying to go away isn't really working , so can you bring it with you ? But you've got to be able to do that by gaining an awareness of it first .
It's like well , I'm having these thoughts , I'm having these feelings , or maybe you know , this sort of work is used for people who deal with injuries or chronic pain , even terminal illness , like yeah , my back is killing me , I keep resisting it , but how can I work with it , instead of trying to fix a thing I cannot fix instantly .
So that's really important .
But I think it's building the awareness that like , oh , oh , look , I'm trying to fix it , I'm fighting it and that's making things worse for me . I have no shot if I try to fight reality .
Right , right Right .
Interesting . One of the things that I found that and I brought this up in one of the classes and I'm taking these classes , but you know well what did what you know came up for you , what surprised you . And one of the things that I said was how come so many cause ? You're using guided as part of the mindfulness training curriculum .
Sometimes you're using guided recordings that the instructor has given you at first . You know that's the first way you get into it . I'm like how come two of them ended with gratitude ? That's . That didn't seem right to me . Like , if I'm going to be really cause , that's that thing I'm supposed to come out of it feeling calm . I should .
I should be able to have a sense of gratitude and thanks . I'm like , but do we ? How come , at the end of the recording , you're instructing us to be grateful ? is that trying to make a feeling so , even in people who trained for three years to get that certification to teach this skill might default back to and it was interesting .
It was like , oh , didn't even think about that so interesting . But then I'll hear other instructors that will say things like well , as you end the practice , just take a moment to acknowledge that you just did this . Cool , I like that . Yes .
I like that Neutral right Like I might feel grateful , or I might feel happy , I might feel proud of myself , or I might feel nothing , or I might feel like I just wasted 45 minutes of my life . Either way , it's okay , right .
Right , I like that . That's funny . I did that training in 2005 .
It's no joke . It's now three years . It's longer to get the MBSR complete certification as a teacher than it is for me to get my , or you to get your master's degree right . Oh my gosh , it's really a long program now .
I'm not going three years , by the way so , oh , I did a week at omega . I gotta sign up for that , clearly oh , I went to omega for a week with john cabot zen and saki santorelli and did a week training yeah , that wasn't certified .
I'm not certified well , I don't know if they , maybe they didn't that back then . We're off on a tangent a little bit , but it really surprised me . Yeah . So I'm like wow , three years of training for that . There's a certification , there's a qualification to be a teacher after a year , but it's still a year , it's not a yeah , that's intense .
Yeah , it's Wow .
Okay , back . People who teach this can accidentally fall into trying to create an outcome . So it's normal for us to want to do that . It's just our human nature , it's okay . Yeah , yeah . So what do we do ? You know what are we doing ?
We find ourselves looking for that outcome and then judging what it's supposed to be , and then it's not that , and then we don't want to do it . What do you do when you get frustrated with it ?
When I get frustrated , when I get frustrated , that I'm , when I get frustrated , when I get frustrated , that I'm , when I get frustrated , that I'm looking for an outcome .
Yeah , cause I think no matter how long we practice , we get stuck in there , right ? I mean , people wear robes and move to monasteries and try to dedicate their lives for this and if they're honest , they'll tell you at 80 years old , I still don't have it right , like I'm still failing .
Yeah , so , like , what do you do when you find that , like Ooh , I accidentally did get caught up in an outcome or I spent my entire 45 minutes off and God knows where in my head , right the key there ?
I mean I am really trying and I and I mean I get so many opportunities cause I fail so often because I am so self-critical of myself . I am really , really trying to like be kinder to myself , that like , okay , you know , I acknowledge that , like I am human eight times out of 10 .
I , you know it may not work , but two times out of 10 I am getting better at saying you know what I'm human . I like I can't punish myself , like I'm catching it , I'm noticing it and I'm human .
Cool , okay , I mean two . Two times out of 10 is better than zero times out of 10 .
Yes , yeah , and I'm really trying to say like there is nothing wrong with me , like I'm human , and this is something I'm working on .
Yeah , what you just said I think is so important . You know , learning to do nothing , or learning the art of doing not doing , which we'll get to the particulars , I think , and how , what that sort of looks like for people . But you are , you're not in the midst of an anxiety disorder and even you have to remind yourself I'm human .
It's okay to not do this right , cause there even is no right . So for somebody who's trying to feel better and there's no it's okay to want to feel better .
We're not saying that you shouldn't want that , but it's so easy to instantly take a practice like this and treat it as a technique or really want the outcome so much that you get critical of yourself and then you say you're even more broken and you can't do it and you're failing . That's such a trap .
Yeah , I don't notice it as much when I'm I'm . I'm pretty good when I do a seated meditation of being kind to myself when I notice that . I'm like when I notice and I label like mind wandering to bring it talked about before I am so hard on myself about , like you know , making a mistake or like anything that I do wrong . So I am really trying to .
Joanna , like you're human , you're allowed to be anxious , you're allowed to avoid , you're allowed to bail and make mistakes . You're human , it's okay .
And isn't that part of the whole psychological flexibility thing , though ? Like I can be there . I can be there with that too , so I can be anxious , I can be upset . I could be feeling like I'm failing . I could not feel so good about myself today . That's allowed too .
Yes .
Yeah .
Yeah , and I've had some really like terrible behavior on that court and with people saying like , aren't you a therapist ?
And like that makes it even worse . I want to start watching the Cleveland news , cause you might be on there soon . I don't know .
It's just like me leaving , like walking out and stuff , but but like really , and I am so hard on myself Like I should be , whatever we don't this is not my therapy session but but really leaning into you know , trying to be kinder as I make you know , because I'm hitting up against a lot of distress and like really trying to like leave the internal stuff
there and not do anything with it , which is some of what we were talking about .
Yeah , there's the not doing , learning to not do right , the . The skill of not doing is not . Sometimes it's physically not doing . You're right , I'm just going to sit . Yeah , that's one of my favorite things is no . No , I get 15 minutes now to sit on my silly little cushion and not do . I'm allowed to not do any .
This is an exercise and literally not do .
There's no goal , just I'm just saying that , yes , I find that is easier for me than then the next step , which is taking it out into the world .
I agree . But you build that in that sort of formal practice and that's why we'll get into this a little bit more now . But I think in that situation so you're struggling at pickleball ball because you want to have a certain outcome and you can't get it and you get frustrated . That's where the skill of not knowing to not do is the mental skill .
Oh wait , I am mentally trying to problem solve this instead of just like this is what I got today , maybe tomorrow I'll be better or worse , I don't know , that's all out . Yeah , learning that , that , being aware of this , like oh , I'm mentally problem solving pickleball .
Right yeah , but I think for a lot of people the physically not doing it's hard , yeah , and it's hard for parents to not to just have unstructured time with their kids .
That's true too . Yeah , you find it in school , in work , in parenting , in relationships . Yes , like not doing time is so valid , and you know what ?
There's been so much written about this lately too the idea that we have forgotten how to be bored , we've forgotten how to be idle because we don't have to be anymore , and then the ability to just be in a situation for whatever it is , without judging it . We have lost that . We're collectively losing that .
Yes , and I think you and I are a similar age Like we get as kids . We did have to learn how to be idle and bored .
Yes , yes .
Yeah , whereas now kids don't have to ever be , my kids never had to be bored , your kids probably never had to be bored .
We had quiet time .
See that you're smart . Yeah , you were teaching them how to be bored or how to be idle .
They , they hated it . The third one never had quiet time , Um , but the older two had quiet time where they couldn't have TV , they couldn't have electronics and they had to just do like figure out what the hell they wanted to do .
If your kids are listening , if Joanna's kids are listening to this podcast . I'm sorry . Your mom was so mean . Yeah , seriously there's value in that , though you know . But as a even if , as adults , if you didn't learn it and you never you don't know what it is to be idle and quiet , and still you can learn it now .
It doesn't matter how old you are , you can still learn it , Never too late .
Other than sitting on your cushion
¶ Practicing Mindful Awareness and Presence
. What do you do for it ?
Well , what I've gotten better at over the last year or so in my practice , I guess , and now I'm only in the beginning of the MBSR trainingR training but like it is an eyeopening thing after only four or five weeks . So I'm I'm very beginner at that , but being able to , I'm starting to bring it into other areas , like I am a food as fuel guy .
I am not a foodie . I will cook sometimes but I don't care how it comes out . I'm not fair enough and I know I'm weird that way I get it , but that's the way I am . Bringing it into eating has turned into an interesting experience too , because now I see how mindless I am on that and it's not helping me .
So , for instance , I learned this caused a lot of chuckling in my house . The breakfast I make is absolutely awful . I'll eat it anyway and not care . I'll just wolf it down and like , okay , I'm done eating , but I'm also reading a book or I'm listening to a podcast or I'm checking my email at the same time . That is not helping me at all .
So learning that and bringing it into eating now and then I'm not a mindful eater by habit and I'm not I accept that about myself really taught me that like I'm using a thing that's supposed to be good for me , fueling my body , and it could be a little five or 10 minute break for my mind , and a recharge was making things worse in my day , adding to the
stress , adding to the load , like what the hell's going on and I was eating crap .
So like all .
I have to do is cook it like two more minutes and maybe put a little seasoning . Oh the horror , it's an extra 10 seconds and it's even enjoyable . Maybe put a little seasoning oh the horror , it's an extra 10 seconds and it's even enjoyable . Wow , what an eye opener . How did I miss that ?
I was , like today , days old when I discovered that I'm eating a terrible breakfast and being okay with that .
Makes no sense , right ? Yes , it's not like making a huge life change .
No , these are little tiny things here and there . The other night it was a really long day came home and all I wanted to do was chill and it's even funny , because learning this skill and practicing it is work I had to motivate myself to sit on a cushion . How ridiculous does that sound ? It's eight o'clock at night and I want to do a night practice .
I know it's good for me . I really want to do it because I like the practice , but also I'm tired and I just want to zone out and numb out .
I could not . I had to motivate myself to sit down . Come on man ?
Yeah , but I also broke a box of light bulbs accidentally in my garage and I was ready a long day and I just wanted to get to the point where I could numb out .
And in that moment the skill of doing nothing came in handy , because I didn't rant and rave and stomp around the garage for 35 or 60 minutes and then numb myself out scrolling YouTube or Instagram for three hours . I was recognizing what I was doing . This happened I dropped a light bulb . What can I do ? I can clean it up .
Ranting and raving and mentally problem solving and judging the experience would have made it much worse for me in the past .
Right .
Yeah , so that's where it's showing up for me behaviorally , but it's a really not consistent . It's hard .
It is hard . It is hard , but I think people can make those little micro shifts where they are just doing one thing , even like even if someone just walks the dog , but they don't , you know , they don't listen to something right , just walk the dog they just walk the dog yep , yep , if you're gonna make a cup of tea , just make the tea , that's it .
Right , don't , don't multitask .
Which , again , like you , have to be really learned to be flexible when you do this , because your brain will try to multitask and that's okay if you catch it . Come back to making the tea .
But the intention there would be whether you intend to sit on a meditation cushion for 15 or 40 minutes or an hour however long you can do or you intend to just make a cup of tea , which takes you three minutes . That's the intention .
I'm going to just make this tea , then your brain will wander off and you come back to the tea , the tea making or the dog walking . That's practice .
Right .
What about identity ? I always find identity issues come up too . You said that earlier like , yeah , but that feels like , but I'm not accomplishing . I'm the doer , I take care of everybody , I'm the problem solver , I'm the , I'm the multitasker , I multitask . I'm so good at multitasking , you know .
So sometimes it can you're confronting issues of like , but I I'm I'm always supposed to be doing that's correct to do . Why are you telling me it's wrong ? But then we would ?
ask why are you listening to this podcast ? Right , and you know how well is it ? At what cost are you multitasking ? Yeah , I always ask people like at what cost ? And if you're a parent , you know what are you mirroring for your kids .
Because most parents , most parents , want their kids to be able to play independently , to be able to focus , to be able to do all these things , and then , if we're not able to model it , it's very hard . We wonder why our kids struggle so much to focus and to just do one task other than , like you know , scroll YouTube or whatever they're doing .
Yeah , I mean , and that's a very real thing , we all know that problem in real life , whether it's with young people or adults , it's almost universal Like no , it's the default . What do you mean ? I want it . Can I just have my iPad ? Well , what if ? What if you do sit silently for just five minutes , could you do it ?
Yeah .
Yeah , but again we go back to the beginning . The first thing is like , no , no , what is ? Why would I sit silently To practice it ? To practice it not to quiet your mind , not to calm down , not to have some sort of insight . Maybe you will , who knows .
But like it's just the practice of at least considering the possibility that not doing , just being , is valuable , and I think we've totally forgotten that , generally speaking , in our society .
Yeah , and being curious , I mean I think like curious about what can come up , like I think you can get , I mean great idea , you can get an idea , who you know ? Great things can come when we just let ourselves be .
Yeah , what I find people sometimes discover is that when they cultivate this and , believe me , there's no experts in my life I do not know anybody that would call themselves an expert at this Even if things don't come up in the silent time or the quiet time , you get more room moment to moment as you're living your day for stuff to pop up that could be
productive . Or suddenly you find that you're being more . You're not trying to be more productive , but you are . You're not trying to like be less anxious , but somehow you are , because you're able to notice like , oh , I'm having a sensation in my body . What if I don't try to problem solve it ? What happens ? Things happen that you don't expect .
Then it's good , yeah , right , yeah , I mean , that's why people with things like chronic pain , they learn these type of skills Like what if I don't problem solve my back pain right now ? What happens to it ? And they will report lower subjective pain experiences and I don't know . There are times when it fades away Like good .
Things happen when we practice this .
Yeah , you're putting that space .
Yes , that's exactly right . It's the building of the awareness that I'm problem solving my back pain or my knee pain or my anxiety or my racing heart . I'm problem solving it . Oh , I can see what I'm doing now . Yeah , now I might make a different choice . What if I just let it be there , right , yeah .
It's that thing that we've talked about . I think we've talked about it on other podcasts that you're . It's the difference between making . Then you're able to make , instead of an emotion or a fear-based decision , you're able to do a values-based decision .
Yeah , a hundred percent . Lately I've heard it described as a difference between reacting yeah , 100% . Lately I've heard it described as the difference between reacting which is like automatic and mindless , and responding , which has some thought behind it .
It doesn't mean responding is always positive and always productive , but at least you have a better chance of going in a productive or positive way than if you just respond knee jerk , don't like fix , don't like fix , don't like fix , don't like fix . You have no shot then .
Yeah , yeah , yeah , absolutely .
So what would you tell somebody that ? Okay , you know what you guys have sold me on this . Maybe I want to learn how to start to learn , how to do not doing . Where do you start ? What would you tell somebody ?
You know I start very small Two minutes , like two to three minutes , and I typically will use something more like an attention training , because I have found doing this work if I say mindfulness-based meditation or something eyes roll .
That's a good point . I'm going to use that too , thank you . I just learned something Smart .
Yeah , I mean I just feel like the word has so much , like it just means I get too much . So attention training and so really training that once you start to notice that your attention is getting hijacked , you know , bring it back to whatever your anchor is , and so we will practice it in session .
So if your anchor is your breath or the spot on the wall or whatever it is , you just keep coming back .
Yeah .
For , you know , two minutes .
I like that . I like attention training , Because you're right when you say things like mindfulness or meditation , sometimes the connotations and the prejudgments are there .
Yeah .
Meditation doesn't work . Everybody tells you to meditate my anxiety way no , no , no , no , no . Let's just work on awareness first . How's that ?
Yeah , you know . And so there's so many videos that I don't you know they don't particularly like , it just doesn't I don't know , I've never really like gotten into them . But online on YouTube there's tons of attention training with sound that people can access , where you know you have to pay attention to one sound and then they put another sound in that .
But I just do two to three minutes that when you notice that your attention is being , you know , hijacked , just bring it back and set a timer and you know three minutes is . It's a small enough amount , it's like a lightweight .
Yeah , yeah , that's exactly right . And people will often wonder like well , how long do you sit for ? Well , I can do 45 minutes . You know , I've never known an hour , I've never done that . I don't always do 45 minutes . 10 , 15 minutes is fine for me , but that's a very long time for a person who's never done it .
I wouldn't have been able to do 15 minutes back then .
And I think the data like when I was reading Peak Mind by Amishi Jha , which I love that book , 12 minutes is what a lot of the research showed that if you really want the changes in your brain , you know , I think you need like five or five days a week at 12 minutes a day , which I think is , you know , that's more palatable for people I don't know that
, you know people , you know 45 minutes I feel like is so that's asking a ton .
It really is . You're really buying into a lifestyle change . But you don't have to do that . I am with you . I have people who start with 30 seconds a minute . If that's all they think they can tolerate , it's okay to do that , absolutely .
Get it in four or five times a day , then that's fine , that's fine , yeah , and I believe in her book and that book is so interesting . She's the one who's done all the research with the armed forces .
Oh , cool Okay .
Bringing attention , training , mindfulness-based meditation to the armed forces . Really interesting Peak mind . She does 12 minutes .
Yeah , that's doable , right . I mean , maybe for a beginner it's not , but you could get to 12 minutes .
Yeah , and she starts smaller .
And you know , I think what's great about that is part of the practice is just , you're allowed there's no outcome here and even if you suck at it for 12 minutes , you're allowed to try this for 12 minutes . It's okay . It's safe to not problem solve your anxiety or your OCD . It's safe to let go . It's safe to stop recovering .
It's safe to be not productive . That's just by itself . Just taking the 12 minutes or the three minutes , that's a good start . I'm allowed to do this . I'm allowed to try this for three minutes . That's allowed , Right .
Yeah , I mean , most people are engaging in so many behaviors that are , you know , that are making their anxiety or their , you know , their OCD or their anxiety disorder so much worse . And you know , you know so something has to give .
Yeah , and it's that there's so many lessons we can talk about this . We can do a whole series on this .
Yeah , we've talked about doing
¶ Exploring the Value of Doing Nothing
.
Yes , I know , like we could keep doing a bunch of these things , but I think , in the end , the lessons for me is learning what it so when people say I don't understand , how do I learn to surrender ? How do I learn to tolerate , how do I learn to stop fighting ? This is how you learn . This is a key part to me in how you learn .
You have to almost be willing to say I , you know , this doesn't , I don't think I could do nothing . I want to understand the idea .
Of course , I have to do something , but if that's not working for you , I think it's really important to do this kind of work , because this teaches you what it feels like to let go , to not solve it , to not fight it , to not manipulate it , to not try to control it .
How do you even know what that feels like when people ask people like you and I well , what does it even look like ? I don't understand . You're telling me that I have to let my heart race , for instance , or I have to have that scary thought and just let it be there . What does that even look like ?
Well , clearly , what you're telling me is you have no reference for what not doing is even like which many people in the West don't have . Here's a way to start to look at that to start to look through that lens .
It's not specific to your anxiety or your OCD , but it's a way to start to at least put that lens in front of you so you can look through the do nothing lens .
Right , and my feeling is , if you can like get a glimpse of that like this is the first step If you can get a glimpse of how to do that as you sit there , as you sit , and you get a glimpse of how you become an observer and you just observe , then we begin to get that process and then we add in a little bit more distress to it and then it's the
same process , but then we add in more and more distress as we begin to take that out from the mat into the world .
Yeah , so it has application , even though it might be . If nothing else , if you take anything out of the last 40 minutes , it's . Can I at least consider that this thing where I learned how to literally learn how to do nothing and practice doing nothing , maybe it does have a value .
What if you at least consider the possibility that it might have some sort of value ? That's all I would ask people to take away from this .
Right , because this is the formal . Sitting on the cushion or the sitting on the floor is the formal practice , but the informal is how we then put it into the , how we then take those , that awareness , into the world , which I think is the value , you know , part of the next step .
Yeah . So if you , you know you work with Joanna and she tries to teach you how to do three minutes of attention , you know , just paying attention , it would be very easy to do a little eye roll or just immediately dismiss it , prejudge it Like this isn't going to work . How is this ever going to calm me down ? It's not supposed to Just give it a chance .
So one of the more interesting things and I guess we'll wrap up that I get out of the whole MBSR training thing is when people do the formal eight-week MBSR thing , which they could do at UMass or any number of places that does that , what they're really told is like you need to have beginner's mind on this , like I know you might judge it .
As this isn't going to work , you don't have to like it , you don't even have to get a response or a result from it . All we ask is , if you commit to it , do it for the eight weeks and then tell us at the end of eight weeks what it was . How's that ?
So same thing Just do the three minutes , try it and then see what it looked like , and then do it again and again and often , as you and you know what , in two weeks you may decide I'm out , okay , but at least you tried it , yeah , so fair enough , right ?
Yeah , fair enough .
Anything you want to add to sort of end the discussion .
I don't think so .
How can people find you , my friend ?
They can find me on my website , joannahardestcom . Will you link it so I don't have to spell it ?
I will definitely .
It's super annoying when I have to spell it .
What episode did I say this was 305 . So if you go to theanxioustruthcom slash 305 , or you're on YouTube or you're listening as a podcast , I will link it in the description .
And can I plug that ? I have a free mini course that people might be interested in . So it's a free mini course that might help people get unstuck and it is six videos over the course of 10 days where I walk you through how to make a small behavioral change and maybe your small behavioral changes .
Do you want to start a three minute attention training practice ?
I'm going to sign up for that . Let me be very clear . You guys on social media you hear me kind of poo poo all the time , the courses and the stuff . This person sitting on video with me right now I trust implicitly .
Oh , that is so kind , drew . I appreciate that , joanna is not .
She is as ethical as they get . This is not a ooh . How can I make $2 million selling shitty courses to people ? She ain't doing that , so go check it out Free .
I'm not even making . How could I make $2 million ?
Anyway , thank you , my friend , we'll do more of these . I miss doing them with you .
I know , this is so fun .
It always is . Guys , if you stay tuned , I will come back and do a little wrap-up , like I always do , with more links and everything . And yeah , see you guys later . And we are back in the studio , which , as you can see , I have the same silly baseball cap on . I'm still looking pretty sleep deprived .
I'm in the exact same place that I was like 10 seconds ago . So there is no studio , it's just my desk . It's fine , you're used to this by now , but I hope you enjoy the conversation with Joanna . Again , I cannot stress enough Joanna is somebody that I trust implicitly . She knows her stuff and she was a great guest to have to talk about this topic .
We're going to cover this more in the future . For sure We'll fill in some details . We may offer some programs on this to help you learn a little bit more about it or try it out Talking about that . I don't know what it's going to look like , but we'll see .
If you want to know more about Joanna , if you're watching on YouTube , I will put a link to her website in the video description . I'm going to pop it up on the screen right now . If you're watching the video , if you're listening on a podcast app , look at the podcast description I'll link to her website Also , it's JoannaHardestcom .
Or if you're on my website at TheAnxiousTruthcom , slash 305 , listening , watching or reading the show notes , there'll be a link on this page to JoannaHardestcom as well . You well , you could check out all of her cool stuff . Follow her on social media .
Check out the book that she wrote , which is literally called just do nothing , and it speaks to this particular topic . But she's she's one of the good ones for sure . She's not trying to take advantage of anybody and she's not trying to sell you snake oil . So go check out my friend Joanna and if you hook up with her in any way , just tell her .
I sent you . And that is episode 305 of the anxious truth in the books . I don't think I'm going to do the music thing , or maybe I will . We'll see how I feel when I edit all this . But remember there is something to the learning to do nothing . It is a valuable thing . Joanna includes it in the work that she does with her therapy clients .
I include it in the work I do with my therapy clients and if you're thinking cool , I learned how to instantly calm down or shut down my scary thoughts . Got to back away from that a little bit . Align your expectations a little bit more in line with what it's supposed to actually do .
Maybe open up to the experience of learning something that has a longer term benefit . That might even go beyond recovery from your anxiety disorder . But I think it's worth looking into . So consider what you've heard today and maybe poke around a little bit more to see what else you can learn about it and maybe try it for yourself .
Joanna and I may be working on some programs on that that will give you a little more information or a little opportunity to practice with us . We will see how that works out Probably more coming on that in the new year , in 2025 . So stay tuned for that . But yeah , that's about it . Maybe here I will put in the music .
Anyway , we'll be back in two weeks with another podcast episode . This one's going to have a special guest that I'm a little bit starstruck about . So come back in two weeks and you'll see who that is . It's going to be pretty informative . If you're watching on YouTube , maybe like the video , subscribe to the channel , leave a comment .
I have not commented back to you guys in like six weeks , but I promise I am going to go back . Hopefully next week I will have time to answer my YouTube comments . Hopefully next week I will have time to answer my YouTube comments . If you're listening on Apple Podcasts or Spotify or someplace that lets you rate
¶ Promoting Podcast Reviews for Recovery
a review live a four or five star rating . If you dig the podcast and thinks it deserves , think it deserves that , maybe take time and write a review , because it helps more people find the podcast and then more people get help . That's why I'm talking to this silly microphone .
To begin with , and if you're looking at learning how to do nothing and using it as part of your recovery strategy , remember that it's okay to not be good at it . It's okay to not even be sure that it's going to work for you .
Even just the act of opening up to that experience and considering it , trying it , is a small step in the right direction , and you always have to give yourself credit for small steps in the right direction , no matter how tiny they are or how insignificant you think they are . They do add up if you're willing to learn the lessons that they give you .
So thanks for listening . We'll see you again . Or watching . See you again in two weeks . Take care of yourself and we'll be back again .
We'll see you next time .