The First Popes

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Hello, I hope you're doing well and welcome to this latest episode of the Ancients where we are going back to Imperial Rome almost 2000 years ago. to explore the fascinating story of the earliest popes, the first bishops of Rome, and what we know about them. This was a fascinating chat. I think you'll really enjoy when we talk about St. Peter, first of all, including the connection he may well have had to the writing of Mark's Gospel. That and so much more is to come with our get.

The brilliant Professor Rosmond McKitterick, Emeritus Fellow at Sydney Sussex College, the University of Cambridge. I really do hope you enjoy. Let's go! And so I tell you, Peter, you are a rock. And on this rock foundation I will build my church. And not even death will ever be able to overcome it. To the kingdom of heaven. What you prohibit on earth will be prohibited in heaven, and what you permit on earth will be permitted in heaven. That was an excerpt from the book of Matthew, chapter.

where Jesus converses with his disciple Peter. The man who would go on to become the first bishop of Rome. The first poke. Despite facing persecutions, the Christian community in Rome endured over the following centuries as a minority, under the rule of pagan emperors. That was until the early 4th century when Christianity began to be. The four, and the power of these early popes began to explain.

The story of the first popes is preserved in a fascinating source known as the Liber Pontificales, a book of papal biographies from Peter. 15th century. In this episode, we're going to explore this work and the information it reveals about the earliest pope. We'll focus on a few key bishops of Rome, Saint Peter first of all, naturally.

Then Sylvester I, who lived during the era of Constantine, a massive moment for the Christian church in Rome. And finally Pope Leo I, who had an encounter with the infamous Attila the Hunt. This is the story of the famous With our guest, Professor Rosamond McKitterick. Rosamond, it is such a pleasure to have you on the podcast today.

It's very nice to be here as well, Tristan. Thank you for inviting me. You're more than welcome. And and to talk about the first popes and and in particular, this key work which talks a lot about them, this Liber Pontificalis.

I'm gonna get straight into it, Rosamond. What is the Liber Pontificalis? Right. Well the Liber Pontificalis is A biographical history. It's written as serial biography. So it starts with Pope No. One. And it goes all the way up to Pope number one hundred and twelve, with a couple of gaps right towards the end. Mm-hmm. End of the ninth century. But the interesting thing is the first A section of it was first put together in the early sixth century, then it they came back to it.

on a contemporary basis. And when I say they, I mean the people actually working for the Pope in his administration. So it's written by officials within the administration who knew the Pope. And that gives them special access to particular records. cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol a'r cymdeithasol

And they're based in Rome. And how important is this text for learning about the earliest popes when you're going really far back i in the story? And and also I guess for early Christianity in Rome? Well what one has to remember first of all is the context in which they were writing, and therefore why they might present the earliest history in a very particular way. So that's one thing is the attitude in the early sixth century to the earliest popes, and I'll come back to that.

But the second thing is the kind of material they had to draw on. What do you do when you sit down in the papal archive in the early sixth century to try and reconstruct six hundred years of your institution's history? Well, they did have some records. They had the records I've told you about already, the letters.

synodal archives and other documents, but they also had various lists, one of which was the so called calendar of three five four, which as its name suggests, was probably compiled in three five four. Ac mae'n rhoi'r list o popes, ac mae'n rhoi'r list o popes. Ac mae'n rhoi'r list o popes, ac mae'n rhoi'r list o popes, ac mae'n rhoi'r list o popes.

Ac mae'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r So essentially the people in the sixth century set out to reconstruct the history from the very beginning up to then.

But that's not really enough to know. That's sort of very bland and it's got no motive or interest, but for the earliest poet One absolutely crucial factor is that the first pope, the first bishop of Rome, as far as they were concerned in the early sixth century, and indeed how the rest of the world was concerned, was Saint Peter, one of Christ's disciples.

And Christ had said to Peter, according to Matthew chapter sixteen, You are the rock, and it was a play on the word petrus meaning rock in Greek, you are the rock, and on this rock I will build my church. So Peter and his church was actually founded by Christ. That's the key thing for them. And that means that to establish the history of the Christian church, yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r

Now, when they set out to write this, they were calling on all kinds of early material. And one of the interesting things is that we can Put beside the Libra Pontificalis are the material that was written from the second and third centuries, and of course the Gospel stories and the Acts of the Apostles. so that we can get a certain amount of material related to St Paul. To James, to Christ, and Peter, and some of the other early apostles from Acts, and then some later Christian letters.

And one thing that becomes clear is that the author of the Liber Pontificalis, even within this very strange structure of bishop by bishop by bishop, is trying to create an idea that the only people that mattered were this succession of bishops. In other words, they're not telling us much about any local controversy, about differences, about d different religious groups. What we do hear about is the way in which individual popes, as you succeed from , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , ,

is that these people were the only ones that mattered. Their authority is the key. Whereas just occasionally you also hear about dissident groups or dissident individuals. And one thing that's also Very important for the very earliest popes in the first four centuries is that they are, of course, bishops in Rome under pagan emperors. So nearly all the earliest popes are marked. Their deaths are recorded.

Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i

So, first of all, you have the name of the bishop, and it says he was bishop for such and such. If I give you just one example of Just a simple one. Pope number twelve, Anicatus. Okay. Born in Syria, son of John, from the village of Umisa. held the sea 11 years, 4 months and 3 days. So that bit of the formula is absolutely standard. Where he was born or in fact the Latin is nazione. So you might want to say his origin was such and such.

or his family came from such and such, or once upon a time he had actually come from a Syrian family. But they always say it's translated by Davis as born in Nazi Syria. Son of John, they always give who his father was? From and then a particular place if they know it from the village of Umisa, that's actually in Syria. So he really was from Syria. And they always tell you how long he was Pope.

Then he was bishop in the time of Severus. So he was bishop in the time of the Emperor Severus and Marcus from the consulship of Gallicanus and Vetus. Rydyn ni'n ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud. So there's lots of chronological indicators where you can verify the names and the period and the passage of time.

Then it says, He decreed that, as the apostle had instructed, a cleric should not groom his hair. He performed five December ordinations, nineteen priests, four deacons, and that bit. we can conclude they got from the register, every Pope, how many ordinations he did, which they only did once or twice a year, special occasions. And then for various places nine bishops. Died a martyr, and was buried in the cemetery of Callistos on 20 April. The bishopric was vacant 17 days.

Now that actually is one of the shortest lives. Because that bit in the middle, where he decreed that, as the imposter had instructed, there's often if the bishop did. give some kind of legislative guidance or contributed to the formation of the literature liturgy or held a synod, but that bit is, as it were, the historical acts. So often that can be really, really long. Yn yw'r bit yn y ddod o'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r.

To add things if he knew anything. And there are one or two instances where he says, Well, I can't tell you who his father was, I've got no idea, the records won't tell you me. Or else

Another section that gets added and he gave the following gifts. So you have Yn yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n And it lists not just churches, church buildings, but incredibly long lists of ornaments, silks, gold vessels, silver vessels, wooden doors, statues, frescoes, mosaics.

So, from the fourth century account onwards, the Libra Pontificalis is a godsend to art historians because it gives them some kind of framework and understanding of the way in which the buildings of Rome were built and then embellished. So essentially the the text has got in it formation has got a lot of potential to put a great lot of information in.

So you've got that information, but what are also the frustrations with this text for wanting to learn more about these early popes? Yeah. The frustration is that they could have told us much more and they don't. The lack of particular detail. There are some instances, if I look up, for instance, the life of Onílius Who is Pope Number twenty two?

Cornelius was particularly famous because he is the one who dug up and moved the body of St. Peter from where he had been originally buried, as far as we can tell, on the Via Appia, over to the place where he had been martyred, on the Vatican Hill, which is where we now think of him being buried. And there's a great long passage about this whole translation. They do tell us about that. But there was also some kind of problem with his position in Rome.

yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r. So that throughout the text you get hints here and there that in the first four centuries the popes are up against the problem of pagan emperors. that they are presented as if they are quite well established, but when you read it very carefully, there are hardly anybody in their in their little entourage. It's a very small group of people.

There are quite possibly other groups of Christians in Rome who weren't quite sympathetic with this particular group. We hear very occasionally about the Jews, who are also settled in Rome. You have to remember that Paul wrote his epistle to the Romans. One of the big letters of St. Paul, and St. Paul also was martyred in Rome. So there is a Jewish community and newly converted Christians.

and newly converted Christians among the aristocracy. But what the text manages to do is build up this sense of a growing church in the early Christian years. That very gradually they're becoming more and more established. There are people who are looking after them. Some of the popes, for instance, are offered the cemeteries of leading Roman families.

Well And that's a beautiful example, isn't it, Rosamond of Early Christian art in Absolute in a tomb of a prominent noblewoman. Absolutely. And and she apparently ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r ymwneud â'r hyn. And there are one or two other instances and in fact the life of Cornelius that I've just mentioned was also something that portrays the the matron, I think she's called, the matrona. Certain Lady Lutina.

So at the request of a certain Lady Lucina, Cornelius took up the bodies of the apostles Peter and Paul, so presumably she was paying for it. That's what I mean by the frustration. We've got all these kind of presumptions or assumptions or speculations that we have to build into our interpretation of text.

of what's going on. And very, very occasionally we get clues that they are actually trying to keep their own records. There are one or two references to the Act of the Martyrs. and we hear that the Pope Julius, who actually is not until the fourth century, had notaries and a system of administration within the papacy. So You get a sense of the very, very early Christian community has a leader, gathers people around himself.

is able to pass on the leadership to a designated heir, which is what Peter does to Linus Clatus and then Clemens, and thereafter there the election or the choice of the Pope falls to somebody within that little group of clergy. And very, very gradually you find that they get themselves better organized. There are so many of them they have to divide Rome into the seven regions under the seven deacons.

Mae'n gweithwyr gweithwyr gweithwyr gweithwyr gweithwyr gweithwyr gweithwyr gweithwyr gweithwyr gweithwyr. buildings, not just the ones that were made out of people's houses. such as Giovanni and Paolo, if you've ever been to Rome, there's a wonderful little Christian dormus, again with beautiful wall paintings. But gradually they started to build purpose built churches. and then these grow, they have to have staff. So there's a very steady growth.

ac mae'n ymwneud yn ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud ymwneud. But I think that we need to remember when we're thinking about the development of Rome in the very early years with the different religions, of what it might be like, let's say, in nineteenth century England, when you've got all the different church denominations.

Catholics beginning to cling on, nonconformist chapels, the Wesleans, the Anglicans, the High Anglicans, the Low Anglicans. There's just hints here and there, the Libra Pontificalis, of these range of religious opinions. But the Libra Pontificalis wants us to think that this is all absolutely Clear with no breaks, no dissension, everything is beautifully organized and as it were inexorable from the very beginning.

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It's like a this line of succession all the way from Peter at the beginning. Uh Rosmond, that leads me into what I was going to ask next. With these Various achievements that are given in the Libre Pontificales to these various popes early on, particularly as you said, when it's the time that, you know, non Christian emperors are ruling Rome and these Christians are in a minority and may well be split up as well. When you look at the Liber Pontificalis and how it lays this all out,

How difficult is it to sort fact from fiction? Can we believe all the achievements that they label to certain popes from this far back in time? Well, one of the great problems for historians is distinguishing fact from fiction all the way through. even when you have an archive, your archive's been carefully constructed, so with selection of material.

To provide the impression to posterity that you want. You just think about the discussion there was when a lot of the National Archive went digitized. So when we can ascertain it from an independent source, we are more confident in the information we're getting from the Libra pontification.

On the other hand, one also has to think of history writing and the professional attitude towards History writing, which the sixth century writers had inherited and which they had known as they were being educated themselves. Their model is the tradition of Roman history writing in the form of serial biography, which we have got from authors such as Eutropius and earlier than that, Setonius.

where Suetonius' twelve Caesars, we know perfectly well that Suetonius is telling us factual material about those twelve emperors from Caesar Caesar through to the end of the Flavians, but What we also know is that he's embroidering and adding, or perhaps repeating lurid gossip or lurid stories, to make it into a good story. But there is a cause. And I think... That is something that we can then apply, that historians are capable of embroidering and adding stories.

They're sometimes guilty of adding in lovely anecdotes simply because they make the story much more entertaining, even if We can't be certain that that really is how things work. But on the other hand, they are committed to a chronological core.

aware that there are certain things such as constituted dates, decrees, certain statements that are something that one can rely on a bit more. Now having said that There is one element at least which one can use as an example of the way in which A history can be created which may not be completely reliable, at least not in that order.

I am referring to the history of the liturgy. At what stage do you get the Gloria introduced into the Mass? At what stage is it customary to stand for the gospel? At what stage do you have the certain mass? At what stage is the Agnius Dei introduced? Now, some of that chronology is clearer because it comes later, but in the very early years we have pope after pope been credited with particular stages of the development of the map.

Now we know the mass was like that by the time we see it because texts survive but not until the most the eighth century in fact. But the actual chronological order and whether that particular pope really did that is not so clear. So they create a history of the liturgy which works.

ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond ond And I think it's possible that some of the other elements, the decrees of the church, some things which actually we can correlate with canon law

where we know that certain things were established certainly by the fourth century, but before that it it is more difficult to know whether we've got things in the right order, or whether that was just when it was introduced or maybe fifty years later.

Well let's go into uh the stories of a few early popes that I have on my list to kind of go a bit. We'll go chronologically as well, and I've got Peter. Then we'll do Sylvester and hopefully we'll get to Leo as well. But let let's start with Saint Peter. So Rosmond, he is the first Pope, as he mentioned, an apostle a disciple of Jesus, his rock.

But how does Peter end up in Rome? Do we have a number of sources which actually tell us about the story of Peter when he reaches Rome and becomes the first bishop? Yes and no, I think is probably the answer to that. We have the story in acts and Peter escapes. No, it's the famous escape. And then he is recorded in the Libopontic Ficalis as having been in Antioch before he came to Rome. That's it.

Ond, yn y 3rd a 4th yng Nghymru, mae rhywbeth yng Nghymru'n yng Nghymru'n yng Nghymru'n Yng Nghymru'n Yng Nghymru'n Yng Nghymru'n Yng Nghymru And we get little hints of the actor of Peter actually preserved in the life that's recorded in the Libre Pontificalis.

They're using the act of Peter in some way, and we are told that Peter, the apostle and prince of apostles, that's the word that's often used, Prince Apostolorum, And Antiochine, the son of John from the village of Bethesda in the province of Galilee, the brother of Andrew, well that's straight out of the Gospels. First occupied the Episcopal Cathedra at Antioch for seven years After the Holy Ghost and Learn how to speak in tongues, and they all are sent to the To teach everywhere.

So the tradition of the scattering of the Christian community is very, very strong in the early Christian church and you have Letters that survive from the first and second centuries, Paul's letters being a prime example, where he is writing to different communities all over the Mediterranean, advising them on their conduct and teaching them the faith.

Well, Peter can be presumed to have been part of that. And of course it's not very nice in Palestine anymore, and especially not after Tyson's center. He has already had to escape. He's a he's um basically a refugee. So then he went to Rome where Nero was Caesar and that's all we're talking. And there he occupied the Episcopal Cathedral for twenty five years, two months, three days, and the the the n the length of time is wonky, it doesn't work.

He was bishop in the time of Tiberius Caesar, Gaius, Tiberius Claudius and Nero, so that's a contradiction.

And then he wrote two epistles called Catholic and Mark's Gospel. What this fits fills us in on is some of the stories that are coming out about Simon Megus and the construction of Mark's Gospel. It's one of the traditions that Mark actually sat at Peter's feet and took dictation, and that the gospel of Mark is actually Peter. Later, this is what is in the Libra Pontificale, Peter was the complete source of the four Gospels. When he was questioned, Peter confirmed them by his testimony.

Now, whether or not he did that, it is actually fascinating when you try and think of how are the Christians going to record the very earliest years. They need somehow to make records. They're passing it onward. word of mouth, of how Christ taught them. They're preaching to everybody. But there's obviously an impulse that they should write this down. They should have

A written record, how are they going to do it? Can they get it verified by eyewitnesses? And Peter, therefore, is cast in the role of an eyewitness. Dictating to Mark, and not only that, but It's actually impossible for him to have confirmed the text of the other three Gospels because the chronology won't work. They hadn't been written yet. They're not written yet, exactly. But Mark Mark is thought to be really, really early.

And there are some very early manuscripts from the ninth century which record earlier readings where actually this mark in the position of some kind of I don't know, not quite a godson, that's anachronistic, but a very close relationship with Peter is mentioned. But it is fascinating that they want the person who becomes the Bishop of Rome and the Pope to be the one that confirms the content of the gospel.

So it's linking the dualant of Christianity with the popes from the very beginning in lots of different ways, not just Christ, but also this written testimony and how it's recorded. And then it goes on to say it's an it's another interesting interjection by the authors, whether in Greek, Hebrew, or Latin, these Gospels are in agreement, and it was by Peter's testimony that they were confirmed.

So again we've got this interesting verification and acknowledgement that you know the three languages, Latin, Greek and Hebrew, are also being verified. did create his gospel in the presence of Peter in Rome. It's possible. It's possible, yes. Yeah. Which is fascinating. The account then continues and it's he ordained two bishops, Linus and Cletus, and they are actually ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud â nhw'n ymwneud.

But then when we get to Clement number four and I'll come back to the rest of Peter's life in a moment, when we get to Clement number four, Clement is recorded as Roman and bishop in the time of Galba and Vespasian, but on Peter's instruction Clement undertook the pontificate for governing the church.

as the cathedra had been handed down and entrusted to him Peter by the Lord Jesus Christ. You will find in the letter written to James by Clement, and James is in Jerusalem and is the brother of Christ, yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r

Right. Well then we go back to the life of Peter and we get this great long story about Simon Magus. Yes. Who is this figure of Simon Magus, who also has a big part in the story of Peter when he's in Rome? Simon Magus is presented as a kind of magician. He's obviously a baddie, but Simon and Peter are portrayed in the Libra Pontificalis as having debates both between

Between themselves, presumably with somebody listening, but also before the Emperor Nero and other people. And what it tells us is that Simon was using magical tricks and deceptions. to scatter those whom Peter had gathered into Christ's faith. So it's a sort of anti-Christian figure. We don't know much more about him, except that he is portrayed as somebody who is malevolent, who is heretical. And when we get later, by that I mean Simon is of always the first one.

So the people who follow Simon Makers are heretics, but if they're exactly Christian heretics is really not clear. Anyway, their disputes lasted a long time because what happens is that there is some kind of major debate, and it's not included in the Lever Pontificalis, but in the actor of Petri, we have the debate where Peter actually challenges Simon to a contest and there's I'm just trying to remember the details of it, somebody tries to fly and falls to the ground and breaks his leg.

I perhaps it's Simon who breaks his leg. I really can't remember now. I'd have to look it up, or everybody else can run off and read up the story of Simon Magus. But whatever the case, it is proved that Simon simply cannot have the power of God behind him. He's just not. A good thing. He's being proved to be a malevolent influence, to be telling lies and deceiving. So Peter is basically coming out as the champion.

Mae'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'n rwy'. Whatever the case, by the time we get to the 8th century, there are some excavations at one of the cemeteries in Rome of Nirae and Achilleus, and they find a tomb with an inscription on it which is very mutilated and it looks as if it is the daughter of Peter that's in that tomb.

So they immediately assume that this must be the daughter of St. Peter, as recorded in all these ancient texts, and this is St. Petronilla. So Petronilla is then exhumed and taken to the little mausoleum beside which is now a little chapel.

beside the then St. Peter's Basilica and ceremonially reburied. And she becomes actually the patron saint of the French and the Franks at that stage. But it's an instance of way little hints in an older text can then get revived and extrapolated in much later ones.

It's so interesting, Rosmond. I could ask so many more questions about Peter. But I think we'll move on to the next Pope on the list. But but but before we get there We should cover the story of what ultimately happens to him. So he's the first leader of the Christians in Rome at the time of the Emperor Nero. But how does Peter's story end? What is this?

Peter is martyred. We aren't actually told very, very much in detail about it, but we are told exactly where. He was actually Kills in the nearer arena on the Vatican Hill. There used to be an obelisk in that arena where Caesar was supposed Ashes was supposed to be in Julius Caesar's ashes, and that obelisk. in the sixteenth century was moved to the front of the new Saint Peter's Basilica. Now, it may be confusing to mention old Basilica and New.

He had a huge new basilica built, and how they built it was to fill in an entire cemetery with rubble to make a platform and put the church of St. Peter on top. just beside the arena of Nero where they had had games and where Peter had been crucified. So that is the site of Peter's crucifixion. But as we've got this confusing story from the third century about the movement of the burial of Peter,

What I think we have to m imagine is that it's very, very unlikely when Peter was crucified that anybody could do anything other than simply retrieve his body and bury it somewhere. This is not a rich community. ac mae'r cymdeithasol ei fod wedi'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i'i

Mae'n ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl. Mae'n ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl. Mae'n ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl yn ymwneud â phobl. Because Paul was executed out on the Via Ostia and he too was buried out on the Via Appia, very close to Peter. And those two were then moved back to burial places on the places of their death. as distinct from their original burials. So the old Saint Peter's then marks this place.

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Well let's go on to that next name you mentioned, uh Pope Sylvester, and we are going ahead quite a few. I think we're going ahead thirty three popes or so from the time of Peter, but we're almost this feels another important one to talk about because it's the time of a great change. So Rosmond, fill us in. I mean, what's been the situation for these early bishops of Rome up to the time of Pope Silver? Well up to the time of Pope Sylvester, the popes have been living, as I said before, in Rome.

Has been ruled not always in person or in actual presence, physical presence, by pagan Roman emperors. And some of the time these Emperors were very, very aggressive towards Christians, and other times they were fairly tolerant. The two emperors that were most ymwneud â phobl, ymwneud â phobl, ymwneud â phobl, ymwneud â phobl.

Mae llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer o'r llawer Bishops have some of the time there doesn't seem to be major problems, but an awful lot of the popes before Sylvester number thirty four are in fact martyrs. Mae'r cwestiynau'r cwestiynau'r cwestiynau'r cwestiynau'r cwestiynau, ond mae'r cwestiynau'r cwestiynau'r cwestiynau.

Mae'n ymwneud â'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn o'r hyn. But but when we get to Sylvester, we have various conflicting stories about the actual role Sylvester played in Constantine's conversion. According to the Liber Pontificalnus, of course, Sylvester converted Constantine. Of course. No doubt at all. But it's not actually very clear, because Sylvester had been exiled.

yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n yw'n. We get that from other versions, The Life of Constantine itself, written by Eusebius and other Christian writers. But what we are told is that once he had baptized Constantine and also the Lord cured Constantine from leprosy, which is also in the Lib Pontificalis, so it's a slightly later edition. persecuting Sylvester, until he suddenly saw the light and converted to Christianity.

fighting for the control of the Roman Empire and control of Rome. Oh Maxentius, yes, the Basilvian bridge and so on. Yes. They're all similar names, I know, yeah. Yes, sorry no, it's my slip.

Anyway, so then we have Sylvester, who is a Roman. He became bishop in the time of Constantine. We have him building up his own church in Rome. Then there's a great long list of the gifts that he gave. It's a an account of the decree, it actually credits Sylvester with convening the Synod of Nicaea. Other texts want it to be Constantine who was convening the Nicene the Nicaea Synod. All it says is that they expounded the faith at Nicaea. This is the the Libra Pontificalis version.

and condemned all the heretics Arius, Fatinus, Sibelius and their followers. So it doesn't mention a creed or anything. Then we have Sylvester convening a synod in Rome itself.

extended description of decrees on the part of the Bishop of Rome. We've had references to he issued a little decree often about something to do with liturgy, as we've already discussed. This is very, very much longer. And then Chapter nine onwards in its one of the longest lives in the early part of the Libre Pontificalis, then has the List of Constantine's gift.

church after church that Constantine established, or the gifts that he gave. So if we have the Constantinian Basilica, which is what we now know as St. John Lateran, He he adorned them and there's silver, there's five foot statues, there's lamps, crowns, patterns, candlesticks, chalices. chandeliers, a'r hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hynny'n hyn.

With the states, not just in rome, not just in Italy, but actually really further abroad. There are some listed as in the Middle East and in Africa as well. And this becomes something that the later lives built on because you then have more churches being founded, more estates being granted, and you can see that the church is now for the first time, and the Bishop of Rome is now for the first time, becoming somebody with some property. And some substance.

And he then gets a staff. And I guess secular power. Not quite at this stage. I mean Constantine is still the Emperor, but when Constantinople gets founded by the Emperor, the Emperor then moves and you actually don't have a resident emperor in Rome. And you begin to find that actually quite a lot of the local

Certainly associations of power are between the bishop and the secular authorities. It's not really until well actually with Leo too, who we're about to talk about, you're beginning to get a sense that power is actually devolving onto the bishop. And do we very much get a sense that this is with Constantine's patronage and what follows him?

This is the beginning of Rome's transformation into a Christian city, or as you said, at least, you know, that that increase in the prominence and power of the bishops of Rome going forward, of the popes going forward? It really begins a transformation of the topography of the city because the centre of gravity is being shifted. And you're also getting a whole lot of new buildings establishing themselves.

The big change before that, of course, was the Aurelian walls in the third century, because when the Emperor Aurelian actually built those walls, he was demolishing great tracts and buildings. Just he just built the wall. It's a bit like the is it the HS two. HS two, okay. Just demolishing everything in its wake and

I don't think some people did get compensation, but that was one big change, these massive walls being built. But what you get with these huge basilicas, I mean if you just think about it. In the early fourth century, with Constantine and Sylvester, what then gets built is the Church of St. Peter, St. John Lateran, the Lateran Baptistry. the after the built I'm just whistling through the list. The S the Basilica St. Paul outside the walls.

the Caesorian Palace, which is the Church of Santa Croce, the Church to the Martyr St. Lawrence on the Via Tibucina, that's St. Lawrence, San Lorenzo, Fuori, Lamora. And then there's a big church put up in Ostia. There's a big church in the city of Albano. There's another big church built in Capua. So essentially you're beginning to get...

Massive changes in the directions and the rhythm of a city. And when you add the liturgy into that, Rydyn ni'n meddwl mai yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r yw'r. her with horses and clergy and incense and singing. This is this is a very, very different kind of thing.

But what you have is the Christian church and the Christian buildings are settling into y mae'n ymwneud â phobl sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n sy'n But some of the old ones, perhaps they're crumbling and their material is used. But very, very gradually you're getting the this transformation.

And the other thing that's happening is that more and more saints are being honored. So you get basilicas in their honour. Gradually the city is becoming a city which is oriented towards where the churches are and where the saints are. Having said that, if you look at an eighth cent late eighth century itinerary of a pilgrim who comes to Rome, we have it in a ninth century manuscript. It's organized like a guide book so that you have eleven routes, walking routes.

So you set out from, let's say, the gate of St. Peter, and on the left you will see this, on the right you will see that. This person is just as interested in imperial monuments as he is in Christian churches. So there's still an awful lot of the old imperial city left, the Forum and major major landmarks, Colosseum, Arch of Titus, Arch of Constantine, and so forth, Trajan's column. But the Definitely I think the from Sylvester onwards you can see this topographical transformation.

Okay, well let's go on to the last of the popes that we're going to talk about in detail. Pope Leo the First now Rosamond. So How much further are we going on in time with the I guess yeah, reign of Pope Leo the First and what happens in the meantime? So how do we get from Sylvester to Leo the First? Well, first question, Leo is the middle of the fifth century.

So we're a good century and a bit later. In the meantime, in terms of history, we have Constantine well established in Constantinople and there is developing a split really between the East and Western empires. So there's an emperor in the east based on Constantinople, an emperor in the west, sometimes based in Rome, but often sometimes also in Trier, sometimes in Milan, and sometimes in Ravenna. So it's not always in Rome, but

actually during Leo's time there is for some of that. You've also got the very beginnings of the settlement within the empire of new Federati, Federate troops who are Germanic. troops so people in Bandal Africa, you've got Huns beginning to cause problems over in the east, and Leo has to deal with them. And you have also Felly, mae'n fwy, fwy, fwy, fwy, fwy, fwy, fwy, fwy, fwy, fwy, fwy, fwy, fwy, fwy, fwy.

Not probably in Britain, just a bit, but Britain is is th a region we know very, very much less about in the fifth century. So within Rome itself the Christian church according to the Libre Pontificalis is flourishing and you've got bishop after bishop building more, organising more liturgy building saint shrines, opening up the catacombs, all kinds of things like that.

And so with Leo, interestingly you mentioned the Huns, because I feel this is a part of his story, isn't it? So when he becomes the new Bishop of Rome, the new Pope, I mean how powerful is he? I mean what are what are some of his big life achievements, as it were? Leo's mostly famous in terms of the Christian Church because he made a very, very clear declaration of orthodoxy.

Christianity, Christology, on the relationship of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost within the Trinity. He also wrote great many sermons and letters, so he's particularly famous for that. He was also quite clearly prominent as an advisor and he was asked to go on an embassy to the Huns on on behalf of the Romans. to try and persuade Attila to leave them in peace. It doesn't say he wasn't successful. He says he delivered the whole of Italy from the peril of the enemy.

I I just love the story because it's the story of a pope, of a bishop of Rome, who, you know, at this time is actually sent to the court of Attila the Hun because of his importance and seems to be successful.

Well, some people say he actually could speak a bit of Hunnic, or whatever the language was, but this is, I think, embroidery. It's not in this particular text, but on the other hand we've got a lot of archives and Mae'n llawer o'r hyn yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw yw So he frequently confirmed the Synod of Chalcedon in his letters.

twelve letters to the Emperor Marcion, thirteen to the Emperor Leo, nine to Bishop Flavian of Constantinople, to the Bishop throughout the East. In these letters he confirmed the sinner's faith. So this chap has seen them all. He's absolutely confirming it and he also gives a great long description of the synod of Chalcedon. So this is this is somebody who is Very clear-headed about what he believes and is very, very good at communicating it, and obviously has.

a considerable amount of authority in persona, so persuades people that he can be trusted and is very persuasive. So obviously a good person to send off to Attila. And is it very much the case in the Liber Pontificales that as you get to the time of popes like Leo, do the biographies almost get longer and longer because they have more importance in this Roman world?

Rydyn ni'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd i'n mynd It's also I think what the author is trying to persuade you you need to remember about each particular poem.

So sometimes you might get a very, very short life of somebody who you think, though he's living surely he must be really important by then, but that either they don't have much to say about him Or they simply think it's actually not Pope is the one who's maintaining Orthodox Christianity, who is organizing the church, who is the ruler of the church, and is the person actually now who is dominant within Rome itself.

Rosmud, it's an absolutely astonishing work and I I love how we've used it to explore the story of the first popes today. Is there anything else you'd like to mention about the earliest popes before we completely wrap up? I think one thing one could say is that there are traces of them around Rome in inscriptions and in the buildings they built.

Perhaps not much earlier than the fourth century, but just occasionally you you'll be lucky and can find some trace of them, especially in the underneath of Saint Peter's Basilica, which was replaced. The old one was pulled down in the sixteenth century, and they put the other one on top. Not as beautiful, I fear. But I think if anyone's going to Rome they should go to all these very, very early basilicas and think about the contexts in which they were built and decorated.

And the catacombs beneath as well, I'm guessing, to get more of a sense of that early Christian Roman community. Yes. I mean a a good early b s uh catacomb would be out at San Saint Agnese, where it's it's quite a small one, or go go out to the Via Appia. Catacombs and San Sebastiano. You really do get a scent of the early Christian there, and there is, in fact, the crypt of the early Pope. in that

catacomb related to San Sebastiano, which one can visit to, and that would be well worth visiting. Rosmond, you've been absolutely wonderful. It just goes to me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come on the podcast today. No, it's been a pleasure. Thank you, Tristan. Well there you go. There was Professor Roger. Pontificales.

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