Rise of Christianity

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Hello! I just want to say a quick message. Welcome back. We are kicking off 2026 on the Ancients with a bang because we're talking about the rise of Christianity and guys we've got so many episodes already lined up for you. over the coming months. We're going to be covering everything from Alexander the Great to Neanderthals, early popes, ancient Egypt, Hadrian's Wall, Jericho, Korea, Arabia, India, saber-toothed tigers, Ice Age, and so much.

more. That's all to come. We're so excited. We are prepped and primed to make 2026 the biggest ever for the ancients and we want you along with us for the ride for as long as you can. So exciting. Lots to get into and let's kick it off with this episode today, The Rise of Christianity. It's the year 300 in the Roman Empire. Christianity is a small, fragmented religious minority and about to face the harshest persecution in its history. But fast forward 100 years...

and the emperors are Christian, pagan temples are closing, and bishops are political heavyweights. How did this happen? How did an empire that once hunted Christians come to embrace them? Today we're tackling one of the most dramatic religious and political transformations in world history, the rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire. To help us unpack this extraordinary story...

We're joined once again by historian Peter Heather, whose book, Christendom, explores how a tiny persecuted sect defeated its religious rivals, converted Constantine, and eventually came to dominate the whole of Europe. Peter, welcome back to the show. It is great to have you back on the podcast. It's fantastic to be here. And we're talking about something else. We're talking about something else. I mean, who'd have thought it? We've done The Fool of Rome. We've done The Saxons.

And now we're doing the rise of Christianity. And I think it's fair to say the fourth century, it's a big century for Christianity. It's actually huge. There's quite a lot of scholarship out there that doesn't quite want to recognise it, but if you look at the before and the after, then a lot changes. And can we say that this is one of the few big revolutionary moments in European and maybe even in world history, which is the rise and Romanisation of Christianity across this century?

In my view, you absolutely can. I mean, it's very hard to shake off hindsight here because we know Christianity becomes this dominant cultural system across... the European landscape, and then in the process of European expansion and colonization in the early modern and modern periods, it spreads across the globe. And you have this colossal structure, absolutely colossal. The thought...

that it was anything ever other than colossal and that it might not have become so colossal, that is really hard to encompass when you first start thinking about it, I think. So... stretching your mind back and really looking at the process that led to this outcome that is worth doing but hard to do. I guess it's also interesting as we'll delve into with certain key moments that...

epitomize this i mean what is it it's the 1700th anniversary of the counts of nicaea this year yes it is yes so like you also see over this century almost like the formulation of Can we say almost like official Christianity at the time, the kind of defining what is right and what is wrong in their eyes? Absolutely so. If you're thinking about Christianity as a system, then obviously when you're deciding...

what is the Christian view on anything, you go back to the Bible as the source texts, Old Testament, New Testament. But there is no religious system straightforwardly in the Bible. you have to extract the passages that you think are relevant to any particular topic, understanding of God, what is good piety, all the key questions. And then you have to... string them together in an order and iron out any ambiguities or potential contradictions occasionally. So...

turning the biblical evidence into the backbone of a system, that is a huge intellectual process. And it takes a long time. Some of it doesn't happen really until the 12th century, but the 4th century is a big moment. where some really key things are sorted out. And do we have quite a rich array of source material for charting this rise of Christianity throughout the 4th century? For the 4th century we do have a lot of material. You've got a spread of Christianity through...

the highly literate classes, the Roman elites, and they write a lot about it. And with the removal of persecution, the Christian intellectual centers, you know, places like Rome, Alexandria. their physical record of their writings doesn't get disturbed or broken up in the way that it did before. I mean, they'd been literate since whenever, but the continuity and the transmission of texts...

is disturbed and broken up by persecution, whereas from the 4th century onwards it doesn't. So there's a certain amount of self-centering where they burn the products of people who are deemed to be wrong as this process unfolds. You know, if you look at the sheer quantity of writing that survives Christian about Christianity from the 4th century, I mean, it's colossal. It would fill some very good bookshelves.

Probably this one. Oh, easily. And quite a few more. Easily. And as you also highlighted there, it's not very lovey-dovey, very peaceful, this rise of Christianity. There is some violent episodes in it as well, which we'll certainly cover. And I guess also on the archaeology side...

I'd think of things like coinage straight away, but also architecture, the building of big churches and the like. I guess those are other sources of information for this. Yes, they are. We do start to get them. There's only, I think they're about... two, possibly three pre-4th century churches that have been identified, and at least one of those is contentious. But they're basically just house churches. They're not purpose-built buildings.

So the one at Dura Ropos, which is the best preserved one. The Pompeii on the Euphrates. Yeah, absolutely. That is just a townhouse which has been converted for Christian use. So a central meeting room and a few side rooms, but it's just a house. It's like sort of modern Protestant sects that meet in houses. Well, let's start exploring that. But first of all, let's go back right to the beginning.

of the fourth century. So 300 AD, Peter, what does Christianity look like at this time? Because often you'll get... Little snippets online saying that Christianity at this time was only like 5% or 10%. So what do we know about this? You don't have an exact figure, of course. Well, you know, it wouldn't be fun if you did. Would there be nothing to argue about? You have to kind of extrapolate. And there are some grandiose estimates suggesting that Christianity is between 10% and 20%.

But there's no way that can be true. And also when we say that, we mean within the bounds of the Roman Empire. Within the bounds of the Roman Empire, yes. There are a few Christian communities in the Persian Empire in Mesopotamia. Not anywhere else, I don't think. I don't think it's spreading across the Silk Road yet in any dramatic way. But that figure's got to be wrong. The reason it's got to be wrong is that...

90% of the Roman population are peasants living in the countryside. And we know that Christianity doesn't spread systematically into the countryside until the 6th century. It's actually a post-Roman phenomenon in the West. There are one or two areas of the countryside, Asia Minor, Egypt, Syria, Palestine, where there clearly is some penetration of the countryside.

North Africa as well. Many parts of the Roman Empire, no sign of any Christianity in the countryside whatsoever. So you can't get to 20%. That knocks that out. And then if you go more positively... A lot of French scholars, Roman Catholic, have put a lot of effort into identifying how many bishops there might be because the mark of an organized Christian community is whether it has a bishop or not in about 300 AD.

And there are 1,800 or so city units in the Roman Empire, and about 600 of these have been organised. Christian community. So only one third. Do you think that might even include London in the northwest? Three Brits make it to the Council of Nicaea in 325. So that might suggest that 25 years earlier there probably still was a Bishop of London at that time. Interesting. Yeah, absolutely. It's probably spread up through the sort of...

busier networks, economic and social networks of the Roman Empire. So a third of the cities have an organized Christian community, but two-thirds don't. city populations 10 to 15 percent we're down at more five percent max but that's obviously too much too because although they've got christian communities

The total population of these cities is not Christian. They're living in and amongst other believers. So the oldest Christian, continuous Christian community of all is Antioch because Jerusalem gets broken up. in the revolt in the diaspora against the Roman rule in the start of the second century AD. So Antioch is actually the oldest continuous Christian community. And from the 380s, where we have...

Lots of information about Antioch. It looks as though Christians are about one-third of the population of Antioch only. But the Jewish community and the classical pagan communities are both about the same. Actually, everybody goes to everybody else's parties. at that point, which the bishops don't like. But, you know, so if the oldest Christian community of all is only one-third of 5%, as it were... then I don't see how you can get Christian numbers up above 1% to 2%. No, because you'll say...

If I think ancient Syria, you might think also, I guess, Mithras from further east, but then Elagabal and all those kind of Syrian deities as well, and the Jewish community and the like. But is it very much the case that, let's say...

the bishop of rome like the successes of saint peter and their like small community in rome the exact like

beliefs that they were following in Rome was probably different to what that small Christian community in somewhere like London were following, or Antioch, or Hipporegius in North Africa. We know that that is the case because this is... one of the processes that does come fully into the light of day in the fourth century is that all these communities come into direct contact with one another and they

find out that they don't quite believe the same things um the big issue of course because it is the kind of unique thing about christianity is this extraordinary doctrine about the deity three in one Trinity, and one person of it, one person of the Trinity, namely Christ, being fully human and fully divine. Easy to say, but what does it mean? Exactly what does that mean?

How are we to understand Christ, the figure of Christ, and what is the implications of Christ's teaching for us, given that he's like us but not like us? And this will lead to names such as the Aryans and the Donatists, and you'll see that explode later as well, won't you? Yeah, no, absolutely. This is the first big dispute that explodes in the 4th century.

is that you find that people are placing different emphases on the extent to which Christ's humanity is what's important or Christ's divinity is what's important, how to understand this. And it goes back to the biblical evidence because the smartest description of this I've ever come across is that actually the problem is created by the Gospels. You've got three Gospels.

Matthew, Mark, and Luke, which present a very human Christ. And it's a Christ who suffers. It's a Christ who prays in the Garden of Gethsemane. Not my will, but thy will be done when praying to the Father. This does not sound like an equal divine personage. It sounds hierarchical. But then you have the Gospel of John.

And it's a fabulous opening. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. You know, complete cosmic equality. So the fundamental problem that Christians are facing is... You have to explain John away in terms of Matthew, Mark and Luke, or you have to explain Matthew, Mark and Luke away in terms of John. And we'll delve into all that. I mean, one last question from me.

Of course, you get all the so-called apocryphal Gospels as well today. But at this time, let's say around 300 AD, can we presume that certain of these Gospels, like the Infancy Gospel of Thomas or the Gospel of James and so on, that in some of these communities...

would not have been seen as apocryphal. They would have learned those Gospels as well. So we shouldn't also be thinking that they had different beliefs, but they all were looking at the same Gospels and then interpreting them differently. Some of them probably looked at different Gospels to others. Certainly.

The main manuscripts we have of these alternative gospel texts are 4th century papyri. There you go. So they're all still floating around. So it's another span in the works there. Yeah, I mean, they had more or less decided... Or some people have decided the shape of the New Testament. So it's only the four Gospels and then Acts and the Epistles.

not so they weren't so sure about revelation at that point revelation is fascinating but that's a story for another time um okay so that's really nicely set the background uh of like the christian world in 300 ad so maybe one or two percent largely in urban cities, Antioch and North Africa, Anatolia, bigger presences, but also small ones in London and Rome and so on. So let's start, now we've set that context.

With the last big persecution of Christians that happens around this time, and it is known as the Great Persecution, isn't it? Yeah, it is. It unfolds in a series of decrees. which eventually culminate in a kind of sacrifice or die order. It looks as though it kills a few hundred people who are executed in the course of it. The sort of more... persuasive martyr acts you have some material that's uh entirely authoritative and

every reason to believe it some that's a bit more fanciful but you know and this is emperor diocletian telling people like you need to do sacrifices to the gods to keep them happy and sometimes the christians say we can't do that and then a few of them who keep refusing, do ultimately get, as you say, martyred in this persecution. Yes, they do. And how big an impact do you think this persecution actually has on Christians throughout the Roman Empire at that time? The best.

The marker of its effect is that in the areas where Christianity had spread a bit more widely, so like Egypt or North Africa. The hot issue after it stops is what to do about lapsing. People who had sacrificed or handed over the Gospels, you had to hand over the Holy Text, traditores.

as they were called, people who handed the material over. And there are very fierce disputes in the North African and the Egyptian churches in the Three Tens onwards about this. So that strongly suggests that... it did generate a bitter divide amongst those who faced up to the full rigor of persecution and held to their faith without flinching and those who found various accommodations.

The accommodation thing is interesting because that's the other striking thing about the so-called Great Persecution. It is a top-down process. In the second century, you've got...

People like the Italian saying every time a volcano goes off or an earthquake, throw the Christians to the line. It's the Christians for it, is it? Yeah, that's right. But no one's saying that in the 4th century. And we know that town councils who had to enforce the... collection of holy scripts and whatever uh would do deals with their local communities to hand over you know some account books not the gospels so uh there isn't any sign of that kind of spontaneous suspicion

and hatred of Christianity. I think in the first century, people were confused by the body and blood stuff and thought, weird. stuff was going on in christian rituals but by the fourth century they're part of the urban fabric and this was also what i was going to ask i mean like would you think this you know so-called great persecution was popular with the everyday roman but it sounds like what you're saying there by the fourth century

Probably not, because they've lived alongside Christians for so long, even though they are a minority. Yes, absolutely. I mean, the real issue about Great Persecution, why was it ever launched? Because, you know, Diocletian successfully puts back... The Roman Empire together beats off the Persian threat, creates this system, and then 17 years later, having successfully done everything, turns to religious matters. You're right. I mean, it is for...

An emperor who otherwise would rightly be heralded as one of, I guess you could say, greatest or one of the most significant Roman emperors, this is kind of... For many people, like the biggest stain on his reputation, the fact that he did decide to do this. Yeah, and it's also, you know, it's kind of bonkers logically. If you think that you have to get the God's favour to be successful, then you would think you would do that.

beginning you know whereas actually he's successful and then he does it is it fair to say that this great persecution is very much a failure and christianity as we get to the the rise of the next big figure constantine um you know it is as strong as it's ever been? Yes, I do think that's right. And in fact, there are big queries over why it's launched.

My best guess for what it's worth is that it's really about a power struggle within Diocletian's ruling circle and that people who don't like Constantine's father... who's a co-emperor with Diocletian, think that he is soft on the Christianity angle, and they are trying to expose that. and particularly cut Constantine out of succession. So I think it's a kind of struggle within the inner imperial circles. And it's very striking, for instance, that no martyrs are created in...

Constantine's father, Constantius, runs Gaul and Britain, and there are no martyrs from the great persecution. Churches are shut down and whatever, but no one's killed. No one's killed, indeed. And then, of course, he becomes Constantine.

His father, Constantius, dies in York. Yes. And Constantine is proclaimed emperor in 306 in York. In York. Do you think there could have been a Christian community in York as well? There might easily have been, yes. One of the northernmost of them all. Yeah. Well, because... Christianity in the West is spreading through the bigger Roman communities, not in the countryside. So, you know, York is a major imperial capital, regional capital.

And if you get the worship of Mithras on Hadrian's Wall, then may well have been some Christianity there as well. There isn't a bishop at that point. A bishop of Hadrian's Wall, can you imagine that? Well, okay, let's get on to one of these big traditional landmarks in the story of the rise of Christianity, which is...

the conversion of Constantine, and also got in here the Edict of Milan. Now, I will say that if you want to learn more in detail about the life of Constantine, we have done separate episodes really delving into that. So we're going to kind of approach it...

through the lens of Christianity here, Peter, and not kind of do the whole biography of Constantine. Okay, I promise not to talk about the whole biography. Yes, where was he born? So do we have any idea, with his background and with his family, What might have inspired his conversion to Christianity? Well, yes, it's interesting, really interesting, because he says different things to different people about his conversion.

We have two accounts of it. You know, you've got this, the classic image is crossing the sky just before the Milvian Bridge. Dream. Big battle, 312 AD. Big battle, win. Those are constructed in different ways in two contemporary sources. Lactantius in the Three Tens and then Eusebius of Caesarea in the biography he writes of Constine after Constine's death. So there's something a bit dodgy about that.

And what's even more striking is that Constantine's religious position, his official one, as proclaimed by his spokesman and on his coinage. has four stages. So straightforward, Tetrarchic, paganism, loyal to Diocletian, same thing to start with. Then he becomes a solo monotheist. So Helios. sun god. Or Sol Invictus, this idea? Yes, Sol Invictus. Then he becomes Christian when talking to Christians, but otherwise vague monotheism, with a lot, still a lot of sun, then Christian to everyone.

So there are four distinct stages. Each of those stages are marked by political victory, military victory. That's what separates them. So he moves to sell a monotheism when he defeats Diocletian's old... buddy maximian he moves to the christian to christians though vague monotheism to everybody else after the milvian bridge when he defeats maximian's son maxentius

And then he's Christian to everyone after he defeats Licinius in 324. 324, so that's 12 years after the Bastion-Milvian Bridge. So these aren't abrupt, kind of quick stages from one to another. They're big. At least part of the story of Constantine is coming out as Christian. You know, where in this progression do you date his actual conversion?

you know he's not completely open about this he's promoting himself at the same time to both audiences yes yes it's very interesting i remember i've said in the past remember talking to david potter so many years ago now but i always remember this this um one of the things kind of mentioned in our chat was this idea that um you know for quite a bit of time

let's say between 312 and 324, it's almost like he is hedging his divine bets. Oh, he absolutely is hedging his bets, yes. And you see it in the coinage, you see it in everything to kind of please both sides. Absolutely. I mean, my own... hunch is that he was always christian interesting and that's always a story of coming out at least a sort of near platonic vague monotheistic line from his father

His mother makes his famous visit to the Holy Land. His mother, yes. Got a sister called Anastasia, which means resurrection. So you think... So how big an influence do you think his mother might have had on it all? Do you think she was maybe inviting a Christian bishop in in his early years when he was growing up? I think it's at least possible. And the thing is, he has to have a conversion.

Because if he hasn't had a conversion, he is one of the lapsy. He has hidden his Christianity in the great persecution. So he has to cover his rear end by having had a conversion after the great persecution. I may be being overly devious, I do realise that. No, but it's very interesting to hear this idea that actually perhaps, you know, which is so...

completely new compared to other Roman emperors before him, that actually maybe he was influenced by Christianity from his earliest years. And again, it ties into the expression of why the Great Persecution was launched. His father, Constantius, is one of four emperors. They're thinking about succession. Diocletian has said he's going to retire. Everyone's concerned with who the next emperor is going to be. And, you know, the knives are out. So trying to cut.

Constantius's line out of contention for the succession strikes me as by far the most plausible reason as to why the Great Presbyterian was launched. Wow. That is fascinating. I had to delve into that more in another chat. I may have. Too much of my youth Kremlin watching.

Well, moving on. Yes, putting that to one side. So if we go to that fourth stage that you mentioned earlier, so after 324, when he defeats Licinius, and from that time, it's gone from a rule of four to... Post-Milvian Bridge, a rule of two, Constantine and Licinius, to now a restoring of a rule of one. Yes. Just Constantine. He's founded Constantinople by this time, has he? Starting. He's starting. And so...

How do we now see this fully, openly promoting of Christianity, Constantine coming to the fore after 324? The element to feed in... is Roman imperial ideology, which says that God chooses empress. Right. And you can tell God is on your side by whether you win.

Because, you know, if the supreme omnipotent creator of the entire cosmos is on your side, you ought to bloody well win. You know, it's quite straightforward. And Constantine has won. He has won in spades. In fact, there were six emperors. Actually, it might be seven. Sorry. brain going in 306. I think there are seven contenders in 306 of which he's won and he is the last man standing out of all of this and he's won all these victories. God is certainly on his side.

And this is what gives him the ideological clout to stand up and say, you know, I'm Christian. Christianity is the right religion. And if someone was to go to his royal court, let's say in 325, would they expect or would they see Christian imagery surrounding him in his court already by that? They would see some, absolutely.

We're starting to get crosses on some of his... Well, we've had the Labrarum in a few contexts after 312, but only a very few. So what do we mean? Labrarum is the cross with the... Semicircle at the top. Oh, like the Cairo? Yeah, the Cairo symbol. So we've had, but only in a very few. Now it's on its coinage. Still Sol Invictus as well, depending on which coin. I mean, he's playing it up to every audience.

But yes, you're seeing Librarum, you're seeing bishops invited to court. He doesn't stop patronizing pagans. It's not a kind of universal switch. Because he couldn't. There are too many pagans in the world, but certainly Christianity has its place at court now and is allowed in. And you get the rise of bishops like... Is it Pope Sylvester I in Rome at that time? Yes, although whether...

Constantine ever met Sylvester. Really? Interesting. It's medieval popes who put out the idea that Sylvester cures Constantine of leprosy and baptises. Oh, wow. Okay, yeah, that's quite strange. There's a bit of skin in that game.

But it seems very much so that, so we won't go into the Council of Nice here too much at the moment because we've done an episode in the past on it, but by 325 at that time, when that council is called and they're getting together to kind of decide the Trinity and all of that. The fact that Constantine is there and seen as the figurehead there, I know he's not there the whole time, but he's there for a bit of the time. Very clearly by that point, he is openly showing himself as Christian.

Yes, absolutely. As soon as he defeats Licinius, he writes a letter to the provincials, which Eusebius has a text of and puts in his life of Constantine. And there he's totally straightforward, says, I'm Christian. Any anti-Christian measures are being removed. But if you want to carry on being ridiculously superstitious and pagan, you can. Right. I mean, the language is very straightforward. It's almost like a toleration the other way. Yes, it is a toleration the other way.

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And actually going back to the toleration the other way the other way before that, because this is really interesting to put as a contrast to this, if we then talk about the Edict of Milan that had happened about a decade or so earlier. Yes, that's after the defeat of...

Maxentius at the Milgram Bridge. So it's halfway through those phases of Constantine coming out kind of thing. So can you talk to us through what the Edict of Milan is and how important a stage this is in Constantine's development? Yes, it is. It is the edict that officially ends the Great Persecution. In fact, it looks as though enforcement had petered out after about 306.

But you have strongly pagan emperors in the East that Licinius defeats. It's a joint decree by Licinius and Constantine, which is effectively... removing the the great persecution edicts and taking away their force as it as time goes on and constantine he reigns into the 330s how significant how important then is this

aligning of christianity with the roman state with the roman emperor uh in the rise of christianity at that time and the more i guess the The creation of a Christianity proper as it was. I think it's impossible to escape the conclusion that the slow coming together of Christianity...

And the Roman imperial system is a profoundly revolutionary moment in the history of Christianity. It sets in motion a series of processes that mean that Christianity, as it emerges, say, 100 years after Constantine. is completely different from what we understand it to be in about 300 AD. It isn't, of course, just Constantine. It's really the fact that Constantine inaugurates a succession of Christian emperors, which is only broken for two years by his...

I don't know what he is. Weird second cousin twice removed. Julian. We'll get to Julian in a bit, yes. But otherwise we have 100 years of Christian emperors where the tie-in between Christian religious devotion... and the Roman state is unbroken. And over the course of that hundred years, a series of processes play themselves out, which totally transform Christianity.

And is this also this alignment, this centralisation of Christianity in the Roman Empire, started by Constantine, I guess also maybe benefited by him being a one-man rule at the time? We mentioned earlier how a Christian community somewhere in London...

may well have been following different beliefs to a Christian community in North Africa or in Rome. With the centralisation and that link of Christianity and the more kind of unity of Christianity under Constantine and the Council of Nicaea, does that also result... in a more uniform set of beliefs, so that actually by the 330s, a Christian community in London would by and large be following the same beliefs as a Christian community in West Asia, for instance.

Yes to the process, no to the chronology. Takes a bit longer. By the 4.30s, yes. In fact, Nicaea doesn't settle the argument. It's the start of the argument. And this is the argument around the Trinity. It is exactly, and the relationship between God the Father and God the Son. Really, whether it's a hierarchical relationship, you know, Father-Son can... I don't know why I say that, having sons.

It implies subordination of the father to sons. To most people, in most contexts, father-son implies hierarchy. Respect my elders in some context, Peter. We can understand. Absolutely. But there's then, well, what is it? It's 56 years of back and forth. And the official Christian... Roman Christian position for 35 of those is actually hierarchical trinity. It's only with the Council of Constantinople in the early 380s.

that Nicaea is reaffirmed, and then you get the crucial enforcement process, which involves the power of the Roman state. Because what happens is, under Theodosius, Council of Constantinople reaffirms Nicaea. But actually what everyone says in church is the Nicene Creed is actually the Creed of Constantinople. It's not the Creed of Nicaea. It's a slightly rewritten creed that came out of that second council.

And then this massive enforcement whereby the churches of those who held to a more hierarchical trinity are confiscated. Churches, all their endowments, all their property, and huge fines. are put in place for important lay supporters of those positions. And it's that which shuts down the non-Nicene Christianity. I mean, how would you think...

Constantine fared when he's ruling and he still sees that there are you know in these early stages there are still bitter divisions amongst the Christians at this time even though he's favouring them you know with the imagery and kind of that reverse toleration kind of decree where now they're tolerating non-Christian religions. How do you think he feels still seeing that there is now kind of rivalry and...

I guess, animosity between Christian groups. It is animosity, and I'm sure you've got bloody bishops. But we do not... The documentation from Nicaea is not very strong. The biggest account of it is in Eusebius of Caesarea, and he's a partisan attendee, so you never know quite how much to trust it. But the story that he tells is Constantine gets them all in a room.

He suggests the definition of the relationship between the father and the son, homousios, identity of substance. Eusebius says Constantine came up with that. And then he bangs heads together until they agree. That's the story as told by Eusebius. And only about three people wouldn't go along with it and they get exiled. But Eusebius is almost trying to promote Constantine as the head of the Christian church then. Yes, he is.

Rather than a pope or something like that. Absolutely. But there is no pope in the 4th century. There is a bishop of Rome who is one of, as it turns out, to be five patriarchs. What defines a patriarchate is... that it was a community that was established by one of the apostles. And they go with five. So Rome, Antioch, Alexandria. They add in Jerusalem because all that had been broken up.

You kind of have to. Yeah, you kind of have to. And then they, on the most dodgy of grounds, add Constantinople because it is the new Roman should have all the... This is something else that is done at the Council of Constantinople, funnily enough, in the early 380s.

We have five patriarchs who are all of equal standing in the official view, except, of course, the view from Rome. But no one's listening to that, except in Rome. The emperor has... is the only person with universal authority over the entire geographical area of the empire and the emperor has been directly appointed by god no one challenges that

So it's extremely natural that the emperor should have religious authority. And in particular, it is only emperors, and this is never challenged in this period, who can call these general ecumenical councils of everybody. So Constantine is very big.

in the rise of christianity and i'm guessing the elites follow suit they see that christianity is on the rise so there's a spread of um people following christianity at that time so by the time of his death you know is christianity very much a rising force Christianity is a rising force by time of Consign's death, but again, it's the fact that his successors are Christian that's so important. It's the fact that for the best, well, forever.

after Constantine, apart from the Emperor Julian, that the imperial machine is headed by Christian emperors. Well, let's talk then about his initial successors. So these are the sons of Constantine, and are they all Christian? They're all Christian. Right. They take a different view on the relationship of the father and the son, but they are all Christian. And you start to see a change in the political culture at the centre.

The perception is out there that although pagans are still in receipt of imperial patronage, it is a slight advantage to be in line with the emperor's belief. And it is that... perception over i think two to three generations that means that by say the 380s by the time of the emperor theodosius that the functioning bureaucratic elites at the centre of the empire are by and large at least nominally Christian. So how do we then get, in the middle of all of this...

The rise of this, you know, the last pagan emperor, Julian the Apostate. I think you get it because you're right on a knife edge at that point. So Julian... hides his paganism really oh yeah Constantine may well have hidden his yeah it is Julian Julian's behavior that makes me think about Constantine coming out so we know the stages of Julian's coming out

as a pagan. We know he dated his end conversion to paganism to the early 350s and he only comes out as pagan when he's in open revolt against his cousin. Constantine's son, Constantius II. And he comes out in stages. So he comes out to some people first, and then after Constantius dies on the way to fight him, sign from God. We're pagan to all comers. And do you think Julian very much playing to that audience was reflective of a wider...

There was still resistance there to this new rise of Christianity. There was still a worship of the old gods by quite a lot of people. Oh, absolutely. The rank and file of the population are still going to the old temples and doing the old things. But you get... these occasional glimpses of the kind of behaviours that the Constantinian dynasty's adoption of Christianity required of people. So Julian makes a famous visit to the city of Troy.

in the 350s before he's come out as christian to see the temples to hector and achilles you know the the great heroes the trojan war because Homer is a kind of religious text for one brand of classical pagans in the 4th century. And he's been told that the temples are in ruins. But he turns up and the local bishop greets him and takes him on a guided tour and he finds that the local bishop is actually protecting the temples. This man called Pegasius he is.

Probably my favourite person in the entirety of the 4th century. Pegasius. Yes, completely unknown otherwise. But what's so great about Pegasius and why we know this story is that later when Julian is... fully in control of the empire and launching a new style pagan priesthood, Bishop Pagasio supplies for a job in it.

He seems quite malleable in what he believes. Well, yeah, I think the $64,000 question is what the hell did Bogatius believe? Is he really a pagan? Does he not really care that much? I mean, it could be either of those. But, you know... That's just one anecdote that we have. We've had to find bishops for 1,200 Roman cities just like that, you know, after Nicaea.

He clearly got the job. I imagine he's a local landowner. Oh, yes, I'm Christian, yes. He will use whatever official office is there to run his local community. I'm guessing. I think it must be something like that. whether it's Christian, pagan, whatever it is. But, you know, this is what we have to think about. That, you know, conversion, we think of light bulb moments. Paul on the road to Damascus.

Constantine, ha-ha, seeing a cross in the sky, or Augustine of Hippo, hearing voices in the garden that tell him to go and read Vital Passage. And there are some conversion moments that are like that. But there's lots of conversion in the course of history to many religions, which is much less profound. not such a life-changing moment. It's actually more decision, a calculation of advantage and odds and whatever. So I think you've got a lot of...

Some people do this. They collect information about Roman officials and whether they're Christian or not. And you can see the numbers going up through the 350s, 360s, 370s. The question is, what kind of Christian are they? Are they like Pegasius? There's absolutely no reason to think that Pegasius is less representative than, say, Augustine, Hippo, in terms of what his conversion might be.

Once that perception is there, because the Roman state is a one-party state, that if you're ideologically in line with the emperor, you might get preferential promotion. It works by connections. Then there you go. Well, even with cases like Pagasius under Emperor Julian, his role backing of Christianity, it doesn't seem to be very successful or very effective. I mean, Christianity...

It holds out. I guess it endures past Julian. Why is it so effective in resisting this attempt by Julian to roll it down? Because it only lasts for two years. Only two years? Yes. That's only much he's ruining. It's not long. And actually... Julian fails the ultimate test. What Julian does is invade Persia. Why does he invade Persia? He wants a victory. Same thing that Constantine had. Victory is the sign of divine favor.

And he gets a defeat. He gets a thorough defeat. Okay, that's a good propaganda win for Christianity. Doesn't look like gods on the side of Julian. No. So we don't get a sequence of pagan emperors. I mean, these counterfactuals are always very difficult. to answer, but, you know, had Julian got his army back safely, having sacked the Persian capital, Ctesiphon, which he, you know, he wasn't too far from doing that.

then he would have had enough to proclaim a victory and he might well therefore have been able to set in place a pagan succession, but he didn't have any children of his own. It would have been more complicated. than Constantine, but, you know, sequence of pagan emperors, you could see a reverse of that process. If we think that a lot of the people who are declaring themselves Christian are a bit Pegasios-like, they would be quite happy to declare themselves not Christian again.

And the emperors that follow Julian then, is it, I don't know if Jovians before or after, but then are there a few more big ones that are out and out Christian? They're all Christian. I think Julian's... Pro-pagan policies were very divisive. You can't tell what the outcome would have been had he lasted 20 years and initiated pagan successes.

It's really difficult to judge whether he's realistic that the clock could be turned back or whether he's bonkers. It's very hard to judge that, and I couldn't give you a clear... answer that i really believed in on that i don't know what the answer is but it's clear that it was very divisive and uh the conclusion was drawn in the sort of top

bureaucratic and military circles where the choices of emperor are made that actually a christian emperor but a tolerant christian emperor is the right move because the next Two emperors, so Jovian who follows Julian, and the brothers Valentinian and Valens who follow Jovian, they both roll back to more Constantine's position.

on toleration than Constantius's position. Constantius had ramped up that pro-Christian favour, but the success is... And that's really the mark of Julian's success, if you like. or the mark of how much division was still there in Roman elite circles, that they dial it back. So who do you think then are the people surrounding these emperors as time goes on?

who actually then encourage them to not just stick to this toleration, to actually then kind of go back to more Constantine, more out-and-out Christian, more pushing forward, I guess, even more radical policies for the time. That goes away from tolerate. toleration and more towards you've got to accept Christianity now. Yeah, as I understand the process, there are two things going on. The Roman elite is coming to some kind of accommodation.

Christianity, generally speaking, the land-owning elites who run the local communities still. So they may not be absolute, you know, born-again Christians, but... They're going to church. They are declaring in public that they're Christian. That is happening. But then because you've got Christianity as the official...

religion of the empire, you've then got pressure groups, particularly leading bishops and Christian intellectuals who are pushing a stronger Christian agenda. Is this a figure like Ambrose? It is a figure like Ambrose, but it can also be imperial officials who are very pro-Christian. So when what we start seeing under Theodosius from the 380s... is a first round of shutting down temples on a large scale. Constantine has shut down seven. They're about 20,000, I think.

At least no one's ever counted. It's barely a scratch. It's barely a scratch, yes. And Eusebius mentioned everyone he could think of and still only came up with seven. They're all mentioned by individual names.

Not a lot happened. Constantius made it possible to shut down a few more, but that was if people had... What Constantine did ban was blood sacrifice. You can throw olive oil around, you can throw wine around, you can light candles, you can pray. Incense and all that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you can't do blood sacrifice. And Constantius made it possible to shut down places where people were still doing blood sacrifice and clearly...

Again, I think not that many. There's nothing that says it was huge numbers. Some get shut down in the 340s and the 350s because of that. The big moment when they start to get shut down, start, is the 380s under Theodosius. And at that point, the first figure we hear about who's playing a leading role is an imperial... one of Theodosius' administrators in Syria and Palestine. He's in close alliance with bishops, local bishops, and monks play a role in the temple destruction.

as well. But it looks like there we've got a properly born again Christian official in alliance with Christian pressure groups exploiting the fact that...

most of the Roman elite is not going to fight you if you shut down a temple. And this is the more violent side coming out, isn't it? This is not just shutting it down and barring the gates. This is... torches and rousing almost like the demagogues in athens this is rousing the rabble to follow and burn down these sites yes that's right again there are fights as to how many do get shut down we have a pagan

letter writer and commentator from Antioch Labanius in the 380s, who's one of the chief sources about this, and he's always saying, he's shouting down millions and bending all down. It's not clear. Exactly how many. But that is the process. So we need the local Roman elites who run communities not to care too much. And then we need officials who...

a few officials who do care in alliance with the Christian pressure groups. Right. And so this first kind of big edict you mentioned under Emperor Theodosius I... He's also known as Theodosius the Great, isn't he? Like Constantine the Great, I guess, aligning with Christianity ideas. Is this the Edict of Thessalonica? No, that comes a bit later. That's in the 390s. Right, my apologies. Yeah, no, no. The first stuff we've got going on is in...

the 380s. And it looks as though what happened is that this local official, a man called Materna Syneges, extended... the scope of existing legislation which was shutting down the Aryan churches to paganism. So there isn't an edict which says temples are to close. It's an interpretation. of existing legislation and a widening application. And only in one area, so only Syria-Palestine, the Diocese of Oriens, which...

Materna Syneges was in charge of. Then that kind of momentum starts to grow and you do get this edict in Thessalonica from the early 390s. which then starts to have more general application. And we see the same kind of process we've seen in Syria-Palestine in the 380s going more broadly across the Roman world in the 390s.

And so this is when, yes, this becomes more an imperial-wide order to shut down pagan centres and the like? Yes, if you want to. If you want to. That's why the kind of attitude of... The local Roman elite in every community is important to the process. At this stage, if they're resistant, if they don't want to do it, then they will... petition the imperial center and they get exemptions or exceptions so there's there's one that says i can't remember which city it applies to but it says you know

There's obviously a really ancient, beautiful building, so we need to leave these alone. Well, I mean, you say that, but I would immediately go to somewhere like Alexandria, where with the 390s you associate it with, at least I do, with probably the destruction of Alexander the Great's tomb.

because it's also a site of where people go, a place of pilgrimage, kind of a deified figure. But of course, the most famous one is the Serapium, isn't it? That beautiful temple in Alexandria. And they completely burn it to the ground. So there are also, even in cities like... prestigious ancient cities which have beautiful like monuments from before the fourth century i mean that's say like you know those exemptions aren't you know they aren't always the case no oh absolutely not and i think

What I would suspect and what the evidence suggests is that the precise outcome varied in each locality according to the attitudes of the governing classes in that region. So Carthage, for instance, the temples are shut but not pulled down, so you get a wide variety of outcomes. But the general trajectory is closing it down.

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And so what happens next? Is there still more edicts that will go along that will then decide more about the futures of these now closed down pagan temples? Well, we're talking about pagan temples in towns. In cities. There's still the countryside. Right. And the next thing in the legislative sequence, well, two things going on. In the 390s already, they're saying...

you can't be a pagan and be in imperial service. So we go from preferring Christians in the imperial service to saying you can't be a pagan and imperial service. And that's a crunch moment in the 390s. That's one legislative strand. The second one is trying to shut down paganism in the countryside. The first rules relate.

to temples that happened to be on land owned by the emperor so imperial estates of one kind or another and then in the late 420s more general prohibition against temples in the countryside what enforcement looked like no idea but uh but these are now all imperial orders yes they are so once again it's very much like the church is just it's a it's a wing of imperial authority by this time. It absolutely is. The church has become a branch of the empire.

I think what's different about it is that the empire had always dictated the cultural preferences of elites. So in the sort of first... century BC and AD when the empire is established you see this wave of cultural accommodation amongst land-owning elites in the conquered provinces they all come into line with the imperial cult. They all learn Greek or Latin. They start wearing togas. They connect themselves into the imperial system. They get the right to find their own.

roman local towns they do all of these things because uh they have to to succeed within the empire um you know it's a bit like being a party member in one of the old soviet states you if you want and if you want to succeed uh in what is very firmly a roman empire you have to be a roman and this affects elites so we've seen that before amongst the elites what's different about christianity

is because everyone has a soul it's actually uh once the empire is christian then it's also uh interfering in the lives of everybody and we're actually dictating cultural preferences and religious behaviours or trying to for everybody and that's very new.

So this is the time. I mean, yes, because you might think of like in the past when people might talk about the coming of Greek culture to the ancient Near Eastern likes after Alexander the Great, there's very much this idea. Yes, you can see it in the towns and the cities. You can see it with the elites because they can get benefits by...

Greek culture. But everyday people, like Egypt, they kept doing their traditional beliefs. This is like a step change that by the end of the fourth century, it's kind of gone past that with Christianity and the Roman Empire. It is now very much... the rural, the 90% of the population or whatever, the people outside the cities, that even their lives are now clearly being affected by Christianity. Yes, they're starting to change. Again, you have to emphasise the time frame.

It really is the 6th century in both the post-Roman West and the still Roman East before people are taking systematic initiatives. to provide a Christianity that can reach the mass of the rural population. So it takes a long time. Christianising the entire world is not a quick process. It's a big task, yeah. Constantine couldn't have just done it in his way. No, absolutely not.

But one of the other takeaways from this chat, which I obviously find fascinating, is it's very much, it is, you know, those Roman emperors of the fourth century to kick it off, many of them, they ultimately decide what is Orthodox Christianity, you know, what to follow. Well, they do. or they rubber-stamp it. They rubber-stamp it. In a sense, the concilia process, so calling these ecumenical councils gatherings of representatives of every Christian on the planet.

And this is what defines an ecumenical council. Nicaea is the first one. There are others which aren't recognized now as ecumenical councils because they came to the wrong decision. But they are exactly the same thing. They're the ones that... constantius held which decided that actually the son was inferior to the father areas okay yeah the sort of an arian position as it's called uh they were similar gatherings but yes the process is

emperor calls people together emperor um presides over the discussions in some way and emperor enforces and when this process gathers its momentum as it has done by the 5th century, then you only ever call a council when an emperor knows what answer they want. Bishops are involved in helping him make up his mind.

But you don't call a council that's going to fail because that's a public relations disaster. I mean, it's a bit like a big climate summit or something like that. If it doesn't come up with an answer or a big statement, then it's a failure. So... You see emperors being lobbied, preparing opinion. Then when enough of the ducks are in a row, we call the council. Emperor...

Emperor's officials preside. We start to get full minutes from the 5th century. Origins of minutes. Yes, you can really see what's happening at these councils. And imperial officials preside over the sessions. They know what answer they want before they go in. That answer is duly arrived at. And then the panoply of imperial legal force is deployed to enforce the decision. A bit of a show trial equivalent then. Well, it is. But yes, absolutely. In that sense, although...

You've got all the lobbying by all the Christian intellectuals and bishops and whatever. The buck stops with the emperor and the emperors are responsible for these decisions. It's been so fascinating.

in the course of this chat to go from the beginning of the fourth century to the end and how you have gone from the christians being such a small minority to you know thanks to constantine primarily you know starting it and you know showing support to the christians and then this idea this switch you see as time goes on are then tolerating the non-christians and then that next big step later on which is then saying actually

you can't worship anymore and the like, from toleration to you must worship Christianity. It's fascinating to think that actually all happens within, you know, it all kickstarts within a century or so. Yes, it's truly extraordinary. I mean, if you think about classical Greico-Roman paganism, it's changed over time, but a lot of this... has roots in an organic process of evolution that takes you back to the Bronze Age transition. It's that old.

you're looking at temples that have been there for thousands of years. And certainly the Egyptian temples, which eventually shut down in the 5th century, they've been there since God knows when. Temple of Isis right at the south, that last kind of bastion.

where you see the images of Egyptian deities just kind of rubbed out right at the end. But actually, to finish it off, still some of those temples do get converted into churches. They do endure. They have that Christian afterlife. Yes, they do. And often...

The Egyptian evidence suggests that you did some kind of Christianization because the pre-Constantinian Christians thought that the gods were in fact devils, that this is... satan's fallen angels who are occupying these temples so you need to cleanse them you need to exercise them so uh inserting a christian presence into the physical landscape was a way of getting rid of the demons

there you go uh peter i could ask so many more questions but i think we've covered them all i've got one last statement i would just read out here which is like the romanization of christianity i.e the co the co-optation of christianity into the apparatus of the roman state uh is the crucial factor in its rise to prominence in the fourth century would you agree crucial i think i wrote it well there you go well I know where they're coming from but I think this is it you know

When you get these great religious changes, it's really hard to envisage that it could have been any other way. But you have to think about what a colossal process it was to shut down Greco-Roman paganism. And you need... It's like... Henry VIII shutting down the monasteries. Before that happens, the monasteries had been there with a continuous history in England for, well, since the 10th century, so 600 years.

And they're a fact of life. They're huge. They're rich. They're everything. And then they're gone. Step change. Complete step change. Peter, this has been absolutely fascinating. As you can probably guess, we have read your book. in preparation for this. Your book on this topic is called? Called Christendom. Christendom.

just the triumph of a religion i think but i i didn't write that bit i liked christendom well as always it just goes for me to say thank you so much for taking the time to come back on the podcast it's been a pleasure thank you for having me Well, there you go. There was the fabulous Dr. Peter Heather kicking off our ancient 2026 schedule.

by talking through the rise of Christianity in the 4th century AD. I hope you enjoyed the episode just as much as I did recording it, exploring figures like Constantine the Great, Julian the Apostate, and theodosius thank you so much for listening this is just the beginning we're back and we're ready to share amazing stories with you throughout 2026 from the ancient and prehistoric worlds

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