[00:00:00] Have you ever wondered if you are on the right path to building whatever it is that you're building? Well, in this episode, I get to interview one of my favorite podcast hosts, Natalie. Doll from biz chicks. And she shares a wealth of knowledge with us on building an enduring business. And what that actually means or could mean to you. So in this episode, we talk about outsourcing. We talk about building an agency model. We talk about how to talk to your partner about outsourcing things at
[00:00:37] What an enduring business means and what building an agency could look like. And so much more so sit back and enjoy this conversation that i have with natalie
[00:00:50]
[00:01:20] Serena: Welcome back to the Ambitious Bookkeeper Podcast. Today I have a very special guest and you could probably hear the excitement in my voice. We have Natalie Eckdahl from Biz Chicks on the podcast today. So Natalie, welcome.
[00:01:35] Natalie: Thank you, Serena. I'm so happy to be here.
[00:01:39] Serena: Awesome. So just in case no one has heard of you, which I highly doubt, but just in case, can you please give like a, your spiel, your background, who you are
[00:01:50] Natalie: Sure.
[00:01:50] Serena: And you help ?
[00:01:52] Natalie: Sure. I have been hosting a podcast since 2014, so I am kind of like a grandma of podcasting, which is why you and maybe some of your listeners, I'm not going to assume that everybody knows who I but I started that podcast because I was not hearing enough women's voices in, in podcasting.
[00:02:08] And I wanted to, Well, I'll, I'll tell you my actual immediate first thing I wanted to do when I started was to understand work life balance. I thought there was a secret I didn't understand. I learned through interviewing that that wasn't true, that no one really has it all figured out. , a lot of us are a hot mess behind the scenes in, in our life and in our business.
[00:02:29] And over time I learned that my audience wanted to work with me and have developed a coaching practice. That trains service entrepreneurs on how to grow and scale their business. My current passion is helping women go from multi five figures to multi six figures. And I have three kids. They are 20, 10 and eight. I'm married to my husband, Mark, and I just have a passion for helping women create an enduring business, which is enjoyable, profitable, and sustainable. And, I'm 50, so I have a work experience that goes back even before all that.
[00:03:05] And I primarily grew up working in service companies. I worked for a few different, I worked for an international PR firm. I worked for a family owned general contractor. In the third generation. I worked for a market research firm, also family owned, but founded by a woman, which. Really interesting. And then I got my mba and after that I worked for a management consulting firm. So I worked in all these different sizes of businesses. And I'm also on my dad's side, a fourth generation entrepreneur.
[00:03:37] Serena: Oh, wow.
[00:03:38] Natalie: Yeah.
[00:03:39] Serena: That's, it's really fun to hear people's journey of where, how they got, where they got to. And I think a lot. Our listeners can probably relate to having worked in like all these different industries and, and things like that. And that's such a value add for our clients. So, yeah. So I love how you talk about an enduring business. I think a lot of us come into business. On accident .
[00:04:06] Natalie: Yeah.
[00:04:06] Serena: Or like, I just wanna make a little extra money for the house, or I don't wanna go back to the corporate, so I'm just gonna kind of do this alongside motherhood. And I totally relate to feeling like there's this great big secret of the work life balance, work life balance, but a lot of people, a lot of us, myself included, Get into business sort of on accident as like a side hustle to motherhood or a side hustle to begin with, or just like freelancing to help other people out. And then all of a sudden we have this like full blown business that we're not sure what we wanna do with. And so I love the term enduring because that could be, like enduring to sell it in the future, or it could be just to endure its life as your business, as it serves you currently. But I love that we all get to kind of choose what we wanna make out of it, but that is one of the things that I've been focusing on a lot over the past couple years is creating more of an asset than just a job.
[00:05:05] Natalie: Yes.
[00:05:06] Serena: So I would love to, to go there with you because I know you have a knowledge about this .
[00:05:13] Natalie: Yeah, I it's interesting. I've been thinking about growing up and, you know, in the, in the seventies and late seventies and early eighties, not very many people worked from home. Right? There wasn't the technology that enabled that. And the few women I saw around me that worked from home were bookkeepers. So I was Isn't that interesting?
[00:05:35] Serena: Yeah.
[00:05:35] Natalie: So I was like, wow. Like that's been kind of a side hustle or a small initial business for a long time that women have been able to do from home.
[00:05:43] And so I, I, that just kind of has been coming to me as, Cause I work with Primarily in my program, I primarily work with marketers, consultants, and financial professionals, including CPAs and bookkeepers and I find that for my clients that are bookkeepers or CPAs, they often just start taking whatever comes their way. And it is such an essential thing that every business owner needs. Every client I have, including my bookkeepers, I want to have a bookkeeper and. Because it's so easy to get referred. The book of business you build out is sometimes business you're not enjoying. And I see that especially with bookkeepers compared to, and CPAs, compared to all of my, when I look at other service providers. And so it can feel really tricky to try to change that business if it's not enjoyable, profitable, or feeling sustainable. It can feel like it's getting, if it's spilling, like the by sustainable, I usually, what I mean am referencing is the pace of the business. And enjoyable is, are you enjoying the work? Do you enjoy the clients? Do you enjoy the people on your team? If you have a team
[00:06:54] And profitable. Often the rates we've started charging people, they were really too low in the beginning. How do we change this? As a bookkeeper or cpa, you're very intimate with your clients. You know a lot about them because you're talking about money, they share a lot with you. So transitioning your business at all is, is difficult because usually people never leave their bookkeeper or cpa. So it's a really challenging, I, I think specialization to be in, you know, or industry to be in because of a lot of those different factors. How to raise the prices on these people and you know, if they can afford you or not. And, you know, some of them can't if you raise your prices, how to let go of some that you don't enjoy working with when maybe your neighbor referred them to you. Like there's just so many things that can make it challenging to have an enduring business in, in that field.
[00:07:48] Serena: Yeah, I can totally relate to that and I never, I never even really considered that it is more challenging because of our business model and that like sticky relationship that we have. That's what makes it so much more challenging to raise prices and to niche or niche down. And like, I just never really consider that. That's like a huge factor in it. And then the other factor is that we just love to serve. Like we just wanna help people.
[00:08:15] Natalie: Yes.
[00:08:15] Serena: And so it's really hard to, All of those variables together, it's really hard to make those changes. So, yes. Thank you for validating that.
[00:08:25] Natalie: It's, it's very hard. I, I like to study like the differences between people and industries and trends, and I'm a noticer and so I like to see what's different between my different clients. And that's one thing that I have really seen and. And even in my situation, we have a big joke in my um, in my community, my current cpa who I am going to change , but he's been, I've not enjoyed working with him for several years. He's my tax cpa and it's hard to leave him. Like the process of leaving feels prohibitive. And I'll be honest, if we were to be interviewing Larry, he probably doesn't enjoy working with me either. I will just say, I'm sure I'm not his favorite client. But he is not what I need and I don't think I'm the right mix for him, but I look at his practice, it's all over the place. You know, he does personal returns, he does business returns, he does corporate returns, he does like, he does everything. He can help anyone.
[00:09:21] So when I, but when I look at my clients that are I have one client in particular right now and she has a bookkeeping practice and she's really an, she's an accountant and she's going into a few different clients. So one of the only ways to help her grow her business and make it more of what she wants is I've gotta get her out of going and really, she has like a job with two clients. She's going there for like 10 hours a week and she doesn't want to do that anymore. For other people that might be ideal. Maybe they go out to this client and have one or two clients where they're serving on site. But I think it's, in terms of an enduring business like you shared, is that it? It's taking a step back and thinking about what do I want? What do I want to create? Because your business is this separate entity. It has its like own energy and has its own culture. Like things are different and it's not necessarily, doesn't necessarily have to be the same as you as a person.
[00:10:15] Serena: Yeah.
[00:10:16] Natalie: And so just thinking about what am I building? What am I creating and where do I wanna go with this?
[00:10:22] Serena: Yeah, so I, I've worked with a couple of bookkeepers that have that same dynamic where it's like, and it's also like 90% of their revenue that they're serving those clients in house. And it truly is like when you break down what they're actually doing and the dynamics, it's like they, you should be outta w2, probably.
[00:10:42] Natalie: Uhhuh
[00:10:44] Serena: And so when I talk to them about that, I'm. Like, that's really what's happening here. Is that what you want? Like do you want to be an employee? And the answer is no. Then there's definitely a change that needs to be made. But yeah, that's a, a difficult change. Sometimes it's, that might be a little easier if, like, if part of the reasoning that you present to the client is like, I just really don't wanna do this drive anymore. But I think that's what we ended up settling on with one of my students is she was like, Yeah, it's also like an hour long drive and it's just a waste of my time and energy.
[00:11:16] So. Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. I think that's very common. When I worked in a CPA firm it was towards the beginning of QuickBooks Online. And QuickBooks Online was really, I mean, I'm not a huge fan to begin with, but back then it was really bad, like it was not where it is today. And we had maybe one client on QuickBooks online, but the rest of 'em, we would go into their office, pick up a flash drive.
[00:11:44] Some of 'em we would go into their office and reconcile the bank account on their computer. And it's just, it's funny that like, That whole dynamic, but it was never like a huge amount of our revenue. It was like maybe an hour a week or something.
[00:11:59] Natalie: Yes. Yeah. It's it's a challenging, any, It's challenging any time you're making a big change in your business, whether it's raising prices, changing the scope of work, of what you're doing, what you're putting out there. I like to talk about specializing and nicheing. We specialize by the work we do, the type of work. Many bookkeepers are like, I will do all the things. Anything you need, I will do everything even if I don't enjoy it all. And then nicheing is by who you do it for. So what type of industry? And for bookkeepers I find it is, I love it when they specialize by an industry because it's so easy for me to refer them. I recently connected with someone on LinkedIn and she's a bookkeeper for salon owners. And so when I was at the salon today, I was like, Hey, if you need a bookkeeper, I just met someone who specializes in salons, and she and I, I've never met anyone that did that. And so she sticks in my mind. I know someone else who's a bookkeeper for interior designers. I know exactly who to send her business and who not to.
[00:13:00] Like, it's just so clear and it's just, it feels very hard to go that direction and it feels limiting to a lot of people. So making these changes in our business, it's, there's a lot of mindset involved. A lot of, you know, money mindset, our own personal money mindset comes into place. Scarcity. Mm-hmm. , feelings of scarcity. It's so layered, Right? It's not just like, Oh, do this one strategy and be done with it.
[00:13:25] Serena: Yeah. Yeah. It takes work to get there and it's, Yeah. I was kind of thinking like, I think the biggest issue is that it does come down to like scarcity and money mindset because we don't have trust that the right clients will find us once we niche down. Like I think it really comes down to that. But once you start, once it starts picking up and you see like, Okay, I'm getting a steady flow of referrals or whatever, then you realize like, I'm only getting these referrals because of , the specialization or the niche. So yeah, it does require some trust to begin with. Yeah.
[00:14:03] Natalie: Yes. One of my friends said it was a leap of faith. There's a part of all of our businesses that is a leap of faith, and there's this, when you make these transitions, there is if you think of kind of like a roller coaster or a rolling hill, like. It may feel like you have a lot of business. You let go of some to make space for, you know, new ideal clients to come in and there may be a lull as you're training your network how to best send you clients. And then all of a sudden it picks up again.
[00:14:32] If you found a specialization and or a niche that is marketable, that the market is looking for, then it will come back to you. But it's, it's, it takes time and it, and it's learning to say no. It's learning to say no to, you know, clients. And, and I think especially, I wanna go back to like training your network and we call it relationship marketing and that's most bookkeepers really build their business on relationship marketing because it's almost all referral based and making sure you're getting those ideal referrals and, and letting people know when it's not a good fit. And it's challenging cuz again, you want to help everybody and you can. You can help everyone.
[00:15:10] Serena: Yeah.
[00:15:11] Natalie: Uh, So I say
[00:15:12] Serena: we're problem solvers.
[00:15:13] Natalie: Yes. If, if anyone's listened to my podcast, I've been brainwashing people for a few years. I say, just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should. And that means in your home And in your business as well, you know, there's in terms of clients and even the work you're personally doing in your business as well.
[00:15:30] Serena: Yeah. That has definitely sunken into my brain for listening to your podcasts for so many years. Speaking of your podcast, and I don't remember I think I shared this with you, like towards the beginning of when I found your podcast, I sent you a LinkedIn message, but I was coming home from a long drive and it was shortly after we moved here permanently, I'm in Northern Arizona, and I was coming back from Tucson and I was so engrossed in binging your podcast that I missed the exit to take the road to my town, which is another like, I don't know, 50 miles off the exit . And I ended up like in Sedona,
[00:16:13] Natalie: I wonder.
[00:16:14] Serena: Not close, it's like two hours away from my house. Because I missed my turn, but I was like so engrossed in like binging the podcast and everything you guys were talking about that like I totally just didn't even pay attention to my map and totally missed my exit. I just had to throw that little,
[00:16:28] Natalie: That's the best compliment ever. I my, at the beginning of my career, I lived in the DC area and I used to work downtown, but I lived in Maryland almost towards the end of the red line. And I would read and at least three times I looked up and no one was on the train because the train had got to the end of the track and everyone had gotten off. So I was sitting in an empty car. So but that meant it was a really good book. And so if you missed an exit, that was very important to not miss. That says a lot. So thank you so much. It's, it's the best compliment ever. And I do that with podcasts I listen to, I bing them and and so thank you for sharing that. That's so sweet to hear.
[00:17:11] Serena: Yeah. But back to our regular programming,
[00:17:13] Natalie: back to program,
[00:17:15] Serena: one of the things that you also talk a lot about is an agency model. and this is something that I'm building out in my business as well, but it's sort of like in the baby stages and it's taken some time, and this is what I think that maybe a lot of. Have a hard time with when we make a change, we want the results like right away. But there's things that you just have to like kind of ride it out and be consistent and all the things. But one of the things that I was talking to someone recently about it, taking longer than I expected is just like my comfort level with. When I get on sales calls being like, It is a team that will be serving you after this.
[00:17:59] Natalie: Mm-hmm.
[00:18:00] Serena: And that's like the whole agency model. So can you talk about like where someone should start if they know they don't wanna be the one doing all of the actual tactical work with clients, but maybe some of it, but not, you know, all of this stuff. Where should somebody start? Best place to hire or position, or maybe it's just a mindset thing.
[00:18:23] Natalie: Probably all the above. I think the first thing is, again, to go back to what is it you want to create? And also it's okay to try something out for a season and realize maybe this isn't the right fit for you from listening to your podcast. I think that you're probably a natural leader, and so building a team feels natural to you. It doesn't for majority of people, but we can all learn to be great leaders. And I think that in terms of those sales calls, it's, it's moving from seeing your business as a me, and into a we. So when you're talking about the work you do, you would be saying, Well, we will do this. We're going to have an onboarding phase, and our team will help you with this. Even if you don't have a big team at the moment, if you just start using that language, it will help start to change things in your brain.
[00:19:12] And this is why I really like helping people position their business to away from being a generalist, because it's hard to hire people that also understand all of the work for all of the different industries. So if you try to move from being a generalist to building a team, is it possible? Yes. Is it going to be harder? I think so. So usually when I am working with any service provider, I help. First position their business differently by either specializing or nicheing or both. And and then you can see, oh, when I hire another service provider, I would train them in the way I do the work. And they only need to learn this one industry or this, you know, Or even if you specialize by the type of work, maybe you only do you know, a specific portion of bookkeeping. A person would only need to be trained in that area.
[00:20:08] So I think taking a a step back, I think it's great for us to take some time off from our business, like take a day to think. And it may feel like you don't have that time, but even if it's two hours where you turn everything off and think about and get in touch with what you really want to do and what you wanna create, because you're gonna create something. Something's going to be created, whether you're intending it or not.
[00:20:30] But really, like if we're starting from the beginning with a a solo provider with a, a bookkeeper who has a full book of business and they're thinking, Okay, how can I grow this business? I'm at capacity. It's never gonna grow more from where we are right now. And They have figured out that how they're going to specialize or niche then, and even before that, just looking at how they can buy back some more time without bringing on, say, another exact service provider. So I, I. Am I surprising people? But I actually start at home. I want people to look at their home life. Cuz you're a person. Yeah, you're a person. And how can we get you as a person, more time to breathe and think And so often it's easier to start by. Outsourcing some things at home, it's usually easier to hire people to do things, and I'm not just talking about childcare, I'm talking about housekeeping and anything outside. And if you're married, let's benefit both partners getting more time if possible. So look there and then Then I would say I would look towards before hiring another service provider, kinda the next natural thing is what are the things that you can hand off that are those lower level tasks? So scheduling some client communication, someone taking over your inbox where you train them.
[00:21:47] And one way I like to think of this is as calling it a micro position. So there also could be a kind of skilled position or a skilled role in your business that you could outsource. Just this one part. To a person. So it doesn't have to be a, a, a full role for someone, but maybe it saves you five hours a week. And what's amazing is when you hire someone to do something for five hours a week, it actually saves you like 10. You get like 10 hours back once they're trained.
[00:22:13] So yeah. So that's kind of where we start. And it's realizing that a lot is in your head. We have to start creating standard operating procedures, how we deal with documenting, you know, the way things are done in your company. And those will come up by often people making mistakes because you're learning how to get those outta your head and communicate.
[00:22:34] And I mean, those of us that have worked in a firm structure, like you worked for a CPA firm, I worked for a market research agency, I worked for a consulting firm. You know, when you worked anywhere where there were multiple service providers doing the same kind of work, that is what you're building out. And it's easier if you have worked under that because you, you don't even realize all that you've absorbed. But I find that many people, and especially bookkeepers, have come into their business without having maybe that experience. And so just imagining the possibilities and where it can go, can be a challenge if they've never been in that type of an organization.
[00:23:14] Serena: Yeah. I was somewhere and I was talking to my partner about the agency model, and he's like, What do you mean? And I'm like, Well, you know, like when in corporate, when we like hired a marketing agency and there's a whole team assigned to the client, like that is what I'm building.
[00:23:30] So each client's gonna have a team helping them, right? Like there's a bookkeeper, there's an accounting manager, and then if they're engaged for CFO services, that's the only time they really get to meet with me.
[00:23:41] Natalie: Mm-hmm. Yes.
[00:23:43] Serena: Like, Oh yeah, that makes total sense. I'm like, Yeah, that's what I'm doing.
[00:23:46] Natalie: Good.
[00:23:47] Serena: But like it, it's kind of funny because we throw these words around and then people are like, But what does it actually mean? Even though they know, like, The structure of it, they now, we have a name for it. It's the, that's what we're trying to achieve with the agency model. So it's like the client is taken care of through all of these steps and areas and. Yeah, it's definitely taken some time to get there. And yes, nicheing and specializing was the first phase, and that takes time too.
[00:24:13] Natalie: It does, because it's an experiment. There's a lot of experimentation that happens in business, and I think we watch other people from the outside and we don't see how challenging and hard it is for them. And everybody's business looks so easy. What you just are like seeing their social media or their website. We have a lot of assumptions about how great it is inside their business, and it's a challenge.
[00:24:38] It, it does take time and that's why I, I actually use the word enduring for a reason, because I especially enjoy working with women that need to make money for their family. It's not just something they're doing for fun or as to as a hobby that I love helping women build businesses. That this is something that can grow and create wealth for not only their family, but for their community, for future generations. And so that is not going to happen if we get so tapped out and exhausted and we create a business that now, like sometimes our why was to have more time and freedom and more time with our kids, and now we don't like, it's just as stressful as, as working for someone else.
[00:25:26] So the nice thing about being the CEO of your business is that you're in control. And even if you're the only person in your business, you're the ceo, someone's the CEO of every business. So unless you've hired out a ceo, then most likely that's you. And that means that you get to make all the decisions and you can make changes at any time.
[00:25:43] Serena: Yeah, yeah. I love that. So you mentioned, I wanna go back to, Hiring at home, and I know a lot of us have major mindset stuff around that .
[00:25:57] Natalie: Yes.
[00:25:58] Serena: And for me, it showed up as like making the excuse that my partner wouldn't be okay with it. .
[00:26:04] Natalie: Ooh.
[00:26:05] Serena: And I've talked to a few other people who have that same like objection of like, Well, he doesn't want anyone else in the house or something. And I'm like, We have that problem at first.
[00:26:16] Natalie: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:16] Serena: And then I was like, Well, we could either have a clean house, or
[00:26:20] Natalie: Yes,
[00:26:21] Serena: you can just tell me which room They're not allowed to go in ?
[00:26:25] Natalie: Yes, usually. It's actually interesting. Usually, I mean, that can obviously happen but. Usually it's a fear of judgment. It's a mindset issue about what will other women think of me? What will my mother-in-law, or my aunt, or my best friend or my neighbor, like, are they gonna be judging me for being this person that has all this help?
[00:26:48] And I'm really thankful for the model my mom showed me. So my mom was a school teacher and my dad was a civil engineer and ended up, he worked for the government and then he, he started his own business. And my mom had my mom likes a very clean house and she had people helping clean on, like I remember being in elementary school and we would have a woman that would come and clean on like Saturdays and not every Saturday, but some Saturdays, like I think it was twice a month. And that was really unusual when I was growing up, especially, we lived in a middle class, very middle class area at that, at that age, kind of lower middle class to middle class. So, I've gotta think that my, we were on, on our block. There were not other people that had like a cleaning service, so to speak.
[00:27:38] Serena: Mm-hmm.
[00:27:39] Natalie: And it kind of gave me permission that it was, it was, it was very, I really appreciate my mom for that. That, and we've talked about it, like why did, why I'm surprised you had a cleaning, had people come over and clean. And she said, Well, I decided that I didn't wanna spend all day Saturday cleaning and I was working full time and she really was conserving her energy and wanted to have time for the family.
[00:28:01] And so so that's given me a lot of permission to kind of do things that maybe are different than other people around me. I really value my time. We can't buy, we can't get our time. And you know, you and I both have we were chatting about this, that, you know, we have these age gaps with our kids and I think that we both have like an older one and then like 10 years and then two, two little ones. And I know how fast this goes as a mom and so I'm very protective of my time with my kids and I also love working and I think that that is something that depending on the area you grew up in, the culture you grew up in, your family culture, if you're spiritual, your, your religious culture. That may be a weird thing for women to say, but I really enjoy working and I like being a mom and honestly, sometimes being a mom, well, I'll say all the time, being a mom is way harder than my business.
[00:29:00] Serena: Oh, yeah. Oh yeah. There's definitely times that I'm like, Can I just, I'm just gonna go to the office.
[00:29:07] Natalie: I mean, you
[00:29:08] Serena: just leave you guys alone,
[00:29:08] Natalie: You just sat here and told me that you were so engrossed in listening to me that you missed an exit. I am a hundred percent sure that not anyone in my family will ever be listening to me and like, forget what they were supposed to be doing. I could just tell you that I no one's, I'm not gonna go home tonight and people are gonna, Mom, could you just, could we just listen to your podcast or could we just talk about business all night. Like, that's not gonna happen. So I do say, I will say my daughter, when she does miss me, she does have a couple episodes that she goes back and listens to. She has, she has kind of sneak that in. She's like, Yeah, when I miss listen to you, I, there's one or two episodes that are Okay, I'll, I'll listen to those just to hear your voice, which is sweet.
[00:29:48] Serena: Oh, adorable.
[00:29:49] Natalie: It's not the same, right? Yeah. If we're loving our business and our work, like it's, it's wonderful and gratifying and easier and so, going back to like the woman that's, I need to get help at home, I would often just talk to your, your partner or your spouse and say, and, and also think how you can get them relief as well.
[00:30:11] Serena: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:12] Natalie: So maybe we get someone to help clean the house and someone for the yard. And I, I love for people to say, could we try it for what if we tried it for a month. So it feels like any changes we make are gonna be a hundred percent forever. Usually it's very rare. I, I would say 99% of the conversations I've helped coach people through like this, they will talk to their partner and their partner will be like, Yeah, we could try it for a month. And they see how nice it is to have that change and the reduction in stress that you, as their partner has. And they're like, Yeah, we will never stop this. This is amazing.
[00:30:47] Serena: Mm-hmm.
[00:30:47] Natalie: So it's just, it's just really rare. But there are cases where I've also talked to people whose partners, like they have the fear of judgment. That's, it's really like understanding if you can have those conversations about understanding what's underneath the resistance, you know, and just trying to be common and find that out and sharing. Really maybe being honest about the stress you're under and that it feels like I, I have anxiety and so it causes me a lot of anxiety when things are really cluttered and dirty and it doesn't bother my husband at all. But he enjoys not having a wife who's anxious and stressed so, that's how we compromise .
[00:31:24] Serena: That's a good point. Yeah. That, that's what happens to me too. When things are dirty or really cluttered. I, I physically feel it in my body. Mm-hmm. and, but then it's worse because I'm like, but I don't have the time to fix this.
[00:31:36] Natalie: Mm-hmm.
[00:31:37] Serena: so and it's not what I prefer to be spending my free time on exactly when I do that.
[00:31:44] Natalie: Exactly,
[00:31:45]
[00:33:17] Natalie: Exactly, Yes.
[00:33:18] Serena: So, Yeah. That is one thing that I used to, when we first got together, he, you know, he had a really good job too, and, but he would still spend the weekend like cleaning up the yard, trimming the trees and doing this stuff. And I'd be like, Why don't you pay someone to do that for you? And he was like, I enjoy it. And I'm like, Okay.
[00:33:37] Natalie: Well that's good. Yes, he loves it.
[00:33:40] Serena: Cause he is in an office all day, so he wants to do some hard labor when he gets home. But I'm opposite . No, thank you. But yeah,
[00:33:50] so one of the other aspects of building an agency model, so step one, get help at home if you can, to start freeing up your thinking time at least, and your free time. And then step two, Nicheing and specializing. And one of the other ways to specialize, which I don't, I know you've talked about it on your podcast, but just to like for the listeners to be clear that there's other ways besides like the type of work you do with clients and the type of industry, but you can also specialize in a certain like software. So narrowing that down is really helpful too when it comes to your process. Like we only work in Xero so my bookkeepers have a very structured way of doing things because it's only one software. They don't have to like context switch between different bookkeeping softwares among different clients. And you'd be surprised at how much efficiency that adds. So that's the other, the other portion of that.
[00:34:50] But once you're starting to build out that agency model and starting to hire in your agency, have you found with your coaching clients specific roles within the technical work that are easier versus harder to hire for, or does it vary by industry? What have you seen there?
[00:35:10] Natalie: I think it varies by what you're building. So we're talking about a bookkeeper that say has narrowed down to um, well, one area I like to help people specialize in, especially if they're wanting to add advisory services and to keep their business stable, is to focus on businesses that are farther along in their journey. So you know, A, a business barely making a hundred K a year cannot afford. And as their coach, I would not advise them to invest in advisory services. They still have a lot of instability happening in their business. They're figuring things out.
[00:35:46] So I really love for my bookkeeping and fractional CFO clients to start to look for businesses that are really a million plus in revenue. And often those are local businesses like the therapist group or you know, just looking at the dance studio. There are businesses in your area. Small businesses everywhere that are at that threshold. So high multi six figures at a minimum to seven figures and above.
[00:36:16] And that could feel like a really big shift, especially once you start to get busy and start to let go of some of those smaller businesses that really don't make sense for you. So I think that's another way to, if you're not ready to focus on an industry, to focus on a business at a higher revenue. And also it's often helpful in that positioning who you don't wanna work for. So I hear some of my bookkeepers be like, I don't wanna work for restaurants. I don't wanna do retail. So you start to hear you, It's okay. You don't have to. No one said you have to work for everyone. There's no like business police out here like saying you have to do this. And speaking of, there's no pricing police either. You can charge different people different prices. You can be on one call and charge one price and on the next call charge a different price as you're figuring this out.
[00:37:03] Serena: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:04] Natalie: So I think just giving yourself some freedom to try some things out, but in terms of building the agency, We wanna think about what takes things off of your plate in the business now. So we've taken some things off your plate at home. You can breathe a little bit, you're having a little fun when you get home. And what can you do that will actually save you time? And it's, it's usually some type of assistant position or. Like scheduling, client communication, the back and forth between the client getting the client to get you the things that they're not getting you.
[00:37:38] So hiring someone to chase people down, could be your role. Your main role is to chase people down and get them to do what they need to do so we can do their books right. Reconciling those. 10 transactions that we don't know where they're gonna go. And and that can really save you time having boundaries in your business and avoiding scope creep. So that is, takes some backbone, that is some mindset work because we might make people upset with us and we have to grow as a woman and get stronger. So I think. As you put those, those boundaries are often easier to put in as you hire a team because you're protecting your team.
[00:38:16] Serena: Yeah. I've found that too.
[00:38:18] Natalie: Mm-hmm. We have to have a way that our bookkeeping firm does things. What is the way you do things? And it will not work if it's one answer for one client and a different answer for another client. So it, you start to put in what we mentioned before, those standard operating procedures. So this is how we onboard a client. This is how we, this is where all their documents go. So when we first start out, our companies, like, we can file things wherever we understand, in our head where we put them, but we have to start to standardize those things. So, and, and maybe there's some things we can automate to save time.
[00:38:55] So just looking for all the ways you can save time in the business through automation standardization. and then hiring in those positions. And then you will get to a point where you're, you realize the only other way you can save time and grow this business is if you hire another person who can do the kind of work you do. And that can feel very terrifying to let go of some clients. One of my clients, she's like, I can't let go of my darlings. And I'm like, What are your darlings? She's like, Those are my favorite clients that have been with me forever. I'm very entrenched in their business and I can't imagine not working with them. You know what? You never have to let go of your darlings if you don't want to, but honestly, your darlings will probably be fine working with someone else as long as the work gets done in the way it's always gotten done.
[00:39:43] And for you to focus on where you shine best, which is usually strategy. So in that advisory role, in that higher level role, like. I mean, looking at knowing about you and your background personally, Serena, like for you to be doing like transaction in Xero, doing stuff that does not make sense. You have such a high level of ability that you know you should be answering those questions. You're coaching your team. You're helping your team manage. They're gonna make mistakes, they're gonna have challenges with clients, and you're now their coach. And that then becomes the biggest shift as a business owner is realizing your, team needs your time and you're shifting from working with clients to advising your team.
[00:40:27] So it's these different shifts that happen and it feels strange. One of my clients just said, and she has a marketing agency, but it's, it's the same concept. She now has her team doing, working with all her clients, and she's mainly on sales calls, mainly creating visibility. And she's like, It feels really weird. Like, I'm not doing very much now in my business. Like I have a lot of time. And I said, This is what we've been creating for the last several years. Like, this is it. And then you have more time. You can decide what you want to do, and you also can just decide to relax for a minute and enjoy what you built. Yeah. But it can feel very strange to go from being so busy and then busy building the team, and then the team starts to work and it starts, They start to have all this efficiency and they're doing great work. Your clients are happy and you have a ton of time.
[00:41:17] Serena: Yeah. Yeah. I think that. For the listeners, like if you have a, a block around, My team's not gonna serve my clients as well as I did. And all those things. Like you can do a visualization exercise by just listening to what Natalie just said and like just visualize that happening, and then visualize bringing in those team members that are gonna make that happen.
[00:41:43] Natalie: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:43] Serena: Yes, you will have to coach them up to that, but they're real. That really is the possibility. And it's funny that you said like, I shouldn't be doing stuff in Xero. And I, I have like a, a charity client that's like a friend of mine and that's the only, the only one I work in. But I hired a bookkeeper when I only had five clients because I knew at the beginning I was like, Yeah, this is not where I should be
[00:42:06] Natalie: correct
[00:42:07] Serena: of it, but it's not enjoyable for me. So yeah, and she's been with me almost since the beginning.
[00:42:12] Natalie: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:12] Serena: And there's a lot of people that have been like, Wow, thank you for giving me the permission to hire so early on. And it's like, well, you, it's your business. You get to do it how you want. But there's definitely people out there that are like, Oh, you can't, you shouldn't hire until you're making six figures or whatever, blah, blah, blah. And it's like, Nah.
[00:42:32] Natalie: No. Especially if you think about like what you're able to do, like the. What people will pay your firm to do. It's, it, it doesn't make sense for you to do that, that type of like, transactional type work. And guess what? There's some people that really love that and will be thrilled for the work.
[00:42:52] Serena: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:53] Natalie: And I think that's another thing I hear from women when they are hiring someone to do something they don't love.
[00:42:59] Serena: Yeah.
[00:42:59] Natalie: They're like, I feel bad. I feel bad. I'm, I like, I feel bad asking someone to do this thing I don't like doing. And guess what? They are taking the job that you've offered because they want to do. So I think that just understanding that people are so different from us and it takes a lot of different people to make this world run the way it runs and to make companies run. And sometimes people are just really happy to have a job to do and many of the rules we're talking about creating our part-time jobs that are ideal for women that don't want full-time work. So you're providing quality work, regular pay for another person. And that is, that can be very fulfilling. It can be very exciting to be able to create that.
[00:43:43] Serena: Yeah. That is, that is now like my bigger, why when, when I started my business it was like, Oh, I'm just like keeping my CPA knowledge fresh and getting a little money on the side or whatever and, and now it's like, it's definitely shifted more to like, I wanna create that culture that people deserve to have women especially, but anyone like the flexibility, the meaningful work and like no bureaucracy, no-- very little red tape. Like we still have to have controls in place cuz we're accountants, but and policies. But it's, that is really like what I'm after now and that is what is fulfilling for me. It's like, and we're helping clients obviously, but being able to look at it from the, instead of the mindset of like, hiring is so hard. I screw it up, like people are just hard to deal with. Managing sucks. Like all the things that people always say when they've had made bad hires, myself included.
[00:44:41] Natalie: You will make a bad hire. I think that we just should just know that you're going to make mistakes in hiring. If you don't have a background of building a team, which almost no one does,
[00:44:52] Serena: but even if you do like
[00:44:54] Natalie: this is true, and it feels different when it's in your own business, it's different hiring that way. And especially in a small business, everyone needs to be a high performer. So in larger organizations, you can get by with some people that are, you know, doing the minimum or not even fully doing their job and taking a lot of breaks. In a small business, it's very apparent if someone's not doing their work fully.
[00:45:18] And so being that leader, that one, you need to have regular meetings. I think part of this that we don't realize, cuz when it's just us, we don't have to schedule meetings, we just talk to ourselves. But you need to have, you need to meet with your team probably weekly, possibly individually. And then as you grow more, you might have to have either weekly meetings with the entire team or monthly meetings depending on what works for you. And so you start to put these structures in place in your business that didn. Before.
[00:45:45] Serena: Yeah.
[00:45:45] Natalie: And that's where some of your time is shifting, right? To some of these meetings with your team. And you're going to have to probably give some performance reviews. You know, we have one in, in our company that Shelly Warren teaches. She hosts our podcast Stacking Your Team, which is the start, stop, continue. And that can be really helpful letting someone know like, here's what you're doing. That's really great. Thank you for doing that. Here's what I need you to stop. You just stop doing this thing. You just stop doing that. I need you to start doing this. And we're gonna meet back and go over this again in two weeks and see how things are going.
[00:46:19] Serena: Mm-hmm.
[00:46:19] Natalie: So, and then if people aren't making change and don't wanna make that change they will probably leave on their own if you keep bringing this up and putting more boundaries on them. But then you may also have to do the hard work of a CEO and let that person go.
[00:46:32] Serena: Yeah.
[00:46:32] Natalie: Because you're protecting your clients, but you're also protecting the rest of your team.
[00:46:36] Serena: Yeah.
[00:46:37] Natalie: So your team will know when someone's not performing and someone's not doing a good job, and it, they're watching. They're watching you as their leader. How is she gonna handle this? So you're setting you know, you are, you are their leader, whether you realize, like, you may not realize, oh my gosh, I'm the leader of this thing I created and people are watching what I'm doing and it's important how I handle things and it's important. You know that I handle things legally as well.
[00:47:01] So it can feel like a lot, but at the same time, when it is working well, it is so exciting and so satisfying, and you can grow your business and you can shrink it. You can have a big team and decide I love this, or you might be like, I, this got too big. I don't enjoy the size of a company. I'm going to shrink it back down or shrink it to this, which is when I thought it was the most fun. Or at some point you can bring in another ceo, you can bring in someone else to run it or raise someone up from within the business to run it for you.
[00:47:34] Serena: Yeah. Yeah. That's all like very exciting to me. But I know a lot of people are like, Oh my gosh, that sounds so scary. No, thank you.
[00:47:43] Natalie: Yeah, and there's no judgment either way. Like the whole part of being a small business owner is creating something that you love that is enduring for you. So it sounds like you're building a business that could be built to sell, which is, that's a great book that kind of describes this model that we're talking about from a marketing standpoint, but it's told in story. And that is a wonderful book to read to just kind of understand how you can start to go from a generalist to a specialist and hire other people in your business to do things that you thought that only you could ever do.
[00:48:15] But if you're going to stay, if you're gonna not build a team and you're gonna stay as a solo provider and get yourself to capacity, then that's where I think it's even more essential to specialize and get to a point where you're really charging, like at the top point of the marketplace so that we can get you to be making, you know, a higher, as much as we can for the time that you're putting into it. And if you wanna have a few clients that are, you're doing on the side, like your friend's charity that's fine. But I also like to remind people that your business is not your charity. So I'm not, I'm not judging you.
[00:48:49] Serena: It's not a charity. The company that I. Help me as not a charity. I joke around it being my charity client cause she's my friend.
[00:48:57] Natalie: I get it now. We're really digging under the the gut. I see what's happening here. But yeah, and that's the thing is like, you might be like, Oh, well it's my friend, I'm doing this for them or you know, this nonprofit asked if I could give them a really reduced rate and you can say no to all of those things as you're building your business and intentionally make those decisions.
[00:49:15] Serena: Yeah.
[00:49:16] Natalie: And then at times you might decide, you know what, I've been doing this for several years, but it's, even though I've done this for several years, I can change it and I can stop doing work for my friend's business at a very reduced or free rate. So there's all kinds of things that we can do. And make changes. And as we get more experienced as a business owner, these things do become easier. They are still hard. Like there's still hard things that happen in my business every day. Like I'm always dealing with something, you know, from a client or something with a team member. Like there's hard things that happen because we all have personal lives and complex things happening around us. But it's making sure that you're building a business that you love, that you enjoy, and whether that's with a, just you and maybe you an an assistant or you're building out an agency. So yeah, I think it's just exciting to watch women go on the path that feels most wonderful to them.
[00:50:10] Serena: Yeah, I would have to agree with that. And, We are about at time. So I think that's a great way to close this out. Is there anything else that you would like to share with the audience, like where. Obviously where can people connect with you?
[00:50:26] Natalie: Mm-hmm. Yes. Thank you. Thanks. I would love for I love to spend time on LinkedIn, so if you're on LinkedIn, I would love for you to find me. Let me know you heard me on this podcast and this conversation with Serena and I, and yeah. Send me a message cuz I get a lot of messages from random people or a lot of connection requests. And I don't necessarily say yes to them all but I love connecting with women there and that's where I spend all my time now on social media. And then if you like podcasts, but you're listening to this, I think you do. I would love if you'd subscribe or follow the Biz Chicks podcast. We spell chicks with an X here. So if you just search for B I Z C H I X. I should come up and I have a lot of content you could listen to and you don't have to miss your exit if you start listening
[00:51:12] So that is, that is that is optional. And I have, I think given the way our conversation went, we have a resource on outsourcing and just, it's like a list of all the things you could outsource at home and at work.
[00:51:26] Serena: Mm-hmm.
[00:51:26] Natalie: And I think it opens your mind up to the possibilities, which is what we really were talking about today. So I'll share a link with you. After this, but it's B I Z C h I x bizchicks.com/ outsourcing. And it'll take you to a spot and you can get that download. And I think that would probably be one of the most helpful things for the maximum amount of people Yeah. Is to kind of have to be like, Oh, I could outsource that? That's amazing. Someone else could do that? Yeah, they can. I mean, it's, it's pretty incredible what you can have to get support and I like for people to work in their zone of genius. That's another great book is The Big Leap by Gay Hendrix. It talks about, and I think it helps with this concept of letting other people do things and so two books Built to Sell the big leap. Really helpful in expanding your mind and then get our outsourcing download. Listen to the BI podcast, listen to Serena, and you'll be all set. .
[00:52:26] Serena: Awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to come on here today. I'm super honored and it was a great conversation, so thank you.
[00:52:33] Natalie: It was so so fun. Thank you, Serena.
[00:52:36]