‘What can we do to lift each other up?’

And I also headed up the scope of practice in the last term. So very proud to get a few regulation changes there.

Curtin University in Western Australia. And on top of that, whenever I can, I like to continue to practise as a community pharmacist because that's what I love doing.

I'm a mum but also a researcher and I've used flexible work around both of those things and been very lucky to be able to do that.

But I do know the struggles that I hear, the struggles of people in our profession with the different hats that they wear and different expectations in different places within the profession on them. So I do genuinely feel, feel for those people and I'm also very, because of that awareness, I think that helps employers like me try the best we can to make sure that we are not creating these unrealistic environments or expectations on people that we have responsibility for.

But yeah, I think it is interesting how there's this assumption. I often use the example of childcare. I have lots of friends with our children in childcare and when there's something that happens with the children, even if the dad's number's listed first, mum gets the call, it's that caring expectation and there's still work to do to change that where we can. Very true.

I learned that after my third child and you hire in help when you need help and be okay with that and be okay that you wake up and the house is a bit of a mess and a bit of a shambles or that a kid's crying because they miss you. This is okay because the life lessons that you are teaching them long-term is that it's okay to work and go after something that you believe in. And I think I hear my kids as they get a little bit older actually echo that

back to me. My son said to me the other day, he started high school and we had to go to a study course together and I was a little bit late because as you know when you're walking out of the pharmacy as you're on your way out for patients stop you and they want to have a good chat.

And so I was 10 minutes late and he went from the library into the seminar and he was sitting by himself with two friends of mine that he'd grown up with and you had to have a little conversation and he said, oh, you had to then say to each other, what are the two things you like about each other? And he said to me, oh mum, I really like the way you manage your time. And I thought, oh my goodness, I feel like I'm always, don't you? I mean as women we feel like we're always chasing our tails.

I was 10 minutes late and he's still saying, but actually what he was saying was, I like that you fit everything in. I like that you are able to solve the problems for us as the children solve your problems at work and you fit it all in. You might be a little bit late, but you fit the important things in. And that was really nice. And the second thing he said, he was forced to make a compliment. He was like, this was art for them. I want to say that. No

compliment out of his own back. But the second thing is that he said, you're really understanding because I think these kids are really interesting. They've got really difficult lives at the moment and you've just got to, it's not like the old school where you could just discipline them. You've actually got to listen to them.

And he hears the conversations I have with HR at nighttime when you're talking to your partners or your managers and how you're trying to get workforce to be happy and content and the constraints and he hears those conversations. He's heard them for years in the car on the way home from picking them up and so forth as well.

And I think you've got to go easy on yourself because you lose a little bit in what you give them from day to day, but you gain a lot from what you teach them through what you do. And I think just go easy on yourself. You give as good as you get and it is what it is. And I hire in a lot of help and that's okay.

When you can pick them up. It's the only way you can manage.

And I must say when I first had that more formal career responsibility, gosh, I said to myself, I have even more respect for mothers now because I used to say my time is my time, but my time was no longer my time anymore because suddenly you have that other responsibility that is more important than yourself.

And I think mothers are never given enough credit for what mothers do, and I think that definitely needs to be celebrated and mothers lifting other mothers in workplaces, that's absolutely very critical. I also wanted to say that I think the challenges that women might face can sometimes also vary or I would say can be compounded by some of the other cultural expectations.

So for example, as an Asian woman, I'm lucky, very lucky that my internal household, as in I was brought up in the family where my mum and dad both went to university, they were both teachers and they highly value education and they have three daughters and I'm the youngest of those three daughters and they've always since day one, emphasised on how important education is for us and how important it is for us to have our own thought leadership and to do what we want to do

in life and to really seek to be a better version of ourselves. But I'm just very mindful that growing up that wasn't the norm. I was very aware of that. And I think in Australia we're very, very lucky. But we do have a migrant population and we do have pharmacists who have

a diverse cultural background as well. So I just wanted to point out that we need to also be mindful around how we support other women who may have other factors that may compound some of those challenges in terms of some expectations or certain assumptions that are placed on women from certain cultures. For example, because you're a woman,

therefore you should be doing this. Or even if I flick the case and say, well, to be a leader in some cultures they attach a lot of the leadership qualities directly with a very masculine quality that associated with men, but not necessarily attach it to leadership qualities where they should be equal opportunity regardless of your sex. And I think as a woman myself, I genuinely do not want to be in the position just because I'm a woman.

I want to be in a position where I've been given equal opportunity and I'm there because of the qualities that I bring and the value that I can bring on the table, not because I tick a box or I fill in the gaps just because I'm a woman. Because I actually think that in Australia we have the luxury to be able to do that. But in some of the countries such as in developing countries, so I was brought up in Malaysia, Singapore and Malaysia is a developing country in some of the countries.

Absolutely. We must put in quotas for example, where we say you must be a woman to do certain things because that was the only way to protect places for women to have a voice. Whereas I think in Australia we're lucky enough that I think we're definitely much more advanced in terms of our thinking in this space, but we need to continue to regard sex of a person as not a factor when we consider leadership opportunity.

Just because you're a woman, just because there may be some social expectation that if you're a woman, you're a mother, therefore you would have caring responsibility. Those shouldn't be a consideration when you go for any leadership position or any roles. If you want to be a CEO of a company and you have three beautiful children, you should go and do that.

And as Catherine and Elise and Kate have very rightly pointed out, outsource certain things, if that's what you want to do, see what you can do to realign your other commitments whereby you're still able to do it. There've been a thing that someone has said to me in the past and say a woman can do everything, just not everything at one time. I actually highly disagree with that. I know it can be challenging.

I'm not downplaying how challenging it is to do everything at the same time, but if that's what that woman wants to do, they want to do whatever they want to do at that point in time, then they should be empowered to do that.

And for me personally, I do feel that it does help me when I look after my patients that I'm always

able to consider the other side of my patient's journey. For example, if a patient comes in and say they've got this health concern that they're specifically seeking advice for, naturally, I think it comes instinctively for myself anyway, that I would always want to know more about the other side and what could be the other factors that may be affecting how they're feeling, what they're experiencing, and to be able to have that conversation that is more holistic. And I would say

I always do that. I think for us that work at Frontline, we see hundreds of people every day and sometimes we do see some people who may, I would always try to see and tell myself that look, there may be other things that have happened to that person in their life that day that may have contributed to their behaviour and things like that.

So basically just to try to help me see me see things and give me a perspective and when I do help my patients to be able to see the holistic aspect to healthcare.

So I think by nature pharmacists are pretty caring people and being a woman sometimes gives you a little bit more empathy. You can see yourself sometimes in those situations and your own caring responsibilities in those situations and your own experience. And I think that can change how you support and treat patients in those situations and the care that you provide to them.

But it's your own work-life balance and it's up to you how you do it and what it looks like for you and don't take judgement from anyone else for it.

well looked after. And I think that's okay. And I think life is an equilibrium, right? Sometimes you give more to some parts and less to others. And I just think that there's not a right and a wrong, it's an ebb and a flow in life. And I think you get old enough and wise enough and less anxious enough to realise that that's okay and we are going to be okay. Ask me when I'm on my grave and I'll tell you whether it worked out or not.

But for now, I think they're fine. I think the kids are fine, the stores are fine, the boards are fine and work-life balance is about what you are happy with, not about other people.

a full-time stay at home parent. And that alone, that generational shift is a lot to, because that's not the world that my family is growing up in and certainly probably many of our families. So it's a lot to take in because all that we know is different now, yet we're also at the same time trying to hopefully create the next generation so that they also maybe don't carry some of this conflict and internal of our time trying to manage and to be okay with over time.

It just continues to lead to more and more impact. I think it's to be able to continue to do that on a consistent basis and a woman's energy can be very contagious. I'm sure everyone here would agree.

skills. And you are strong, but you do it your way and you do it the female way. And I just think that's wonderful. And I just saw this, I think that the PSA taking over the college, and I know it's had its challenges recently as well, but it's a true example of the knowing scope of practise is coming through and knowing that we need to train this workforce to be able to go full steam ahead against these challenges that are in front of us as well.

And I think that your leadership in that has been extraordinary Fei, and I just think you being you and people coming up in the profession and seeing you is a great example of that. I think when I came up, I saw a lot of women, but I didn't see a lot of women in leadership positions. It was middle-aged white males. And I think sometimes when I first got a board position, someone asked me what you should do, and I said, you should go for it like a middle-aged white male.

And I said it a bit tongue in cheek, but now I look around and there's great women like Fei and Kate and Elise and so many others that are out there. And I just think that you can't be more than being authentic and yourself in a leadership position. And people will naturally see themselves in you and say, well, I can do that. And they might do it a year or two earlier than you did,

and then they get to get there a little bit earlier. I mean, particularly where we're in the guild, you've got to get into being registered and then you've got to own, and then you've got to settle your businesses down before you can go for a state board position and then a national board position. And so you've got to get in there early with everything else that life throws at you. And so I think that earlier we can get women into just believing in themselves.

The more we can get them in taking these leadership roles when they're ready. And quite frankly when they're not ready, because most men take them up when they're not ready and they don't have the skillset and women just stand by the sidelines and let them do it and let's get women when they're not ready and just build them up so they can do it and also not take other women down. I see it a lot. I see a lot of women tear a lot of other women down because they think,

I didn't do that or I didn't get that opportunity. Who cares? You didn't get it? That's fine. They've got the opportunity. Just support them and get them through it. And also those men that support women, and there are some great male mentors out there. I'm sure we've all had some great male mentors. Tell 'em how good they are, tell 'em how much they helped you and how much they need to help other women

through there. But stop, I mean, women have to stop being competitive with other women first of all. But women just have to be themselves and authentic, and I think there's so many good examples now in our industry and in the wider leadership community that you've just got to advocate for women. Just make sure you see something in a woman that's younger than you just back 'em just truly back, and it's your responsibility to back them, I think.

You probably don't see how inspiring you are every time when you speak and every time when I see you on TV and the impact, the long lasting impact that leaves people in young women's heart that you can't really measure that. So absolutely thank you to people like yourselves and Elise and Kate.

I think definitely post covid about the accessibility of everybody and your ability to adapt different responsibilities with life. So it's important that we embody what we want to see in the profession moving forward, that we bring young women up behind us, but that people who are looking for those opportunities, don't underestimate the other people around them because people will pitch in and help and they will support you.

dominated world that was meant to exist. And I think that I was very privileged to be able to have that. I didn't probably appreciate that when I was there, but I've been very oblivious to the fact that we are meant to live in this male dominated industry. I just don't give anything to it, don't give anything to it. I mean, I just don't think we should. I mean, it's a fallacy. It's just something that just shouldn't exist.

You're good if you run good businesses, if you have a good career, if you've got great clinical knowledge, if you've got good leadership skills, just do it. Why do we doubt ourselves? Why do we play that card? I'm a bit oblivious to it, I have to say. And so maybe some listeners will like that and maybe other listeners will not like that, but I actually think the best thing you can do is just ignore it. And there's been some times where I probably showed those cards.

I remember that I was on a university board where we were setting up a new pharmacy school and I was on this board and I was always 10 years younger and the wrong sex, but I just didn't realise that. And I just remember that we were talking about maternity leave, and this is before I had kids and one of the pharmacists said, oh, it's just these, you just train them for so long and then they have babies and they don't come back as much. And I was quite shocked.

I just didn't expect it. I said, oh, what the men go soft? I just thought, because I've had experiences where parenting is both sides of the cards and I've had experiences where men have had to step back into those parenting roles. And so I was just quite oblivious to this sort of, and I think you should be oblivious.

We live in a different generation till perhaps some of the people in leadership roles are, and we should just ignore them and we should just cut through them and call them out for what they are and maybe call them out with a bit of humour, maybe call them out for what they are. But I think you've got to be very clear to say, actually that's not the world we live in. All my business partners are women. I mean, we've had one of my stores,

we've had six babies between us in the last 10 years. The balance is good. I mean, I think women are great as business partners because it takes them nine months to get their life together. Because I tell you what, once they have that baby, they don't want to be disturbed for a good three to six to 12 months.

And so there's nothing more motivating in a woman to make sure that they train up the people behind them, that they make sure that they get the systems and procedures in place, that they make sure that they're not needed within that organisation. And I think that's a sign of a good leadership. The best leadership is always when a person's not there, if that organisation or that store functions well because they have been a true leader, not a manager, but they've been a true leader.

And I'm not sure men have that same response that they like to be needed a bit more. I mean, we say women to be needed, men like to be needed a bit more. But when you've got a woman who's about to have a baby who doesn't want to be disturbed, there's nothing better than that. So I just think it's just bogus, this whole male dominated world. It's just bogus. It only exists if you believe it.

But on the other side of it, I think in leadership roles, you should have the right people in leadership positions regardless of their gender. They should be a good leader. And so if the timing's not right or that person's not right, they shouldn't be put in that position because they're a female or a male. They should be a good leader and they should be able to bring people with them.

So was very lucky to meet her early in my career.

But because of some great leadership of men, farmers, male pharmacy owners, a generation before us, they also didn't see that they picked the best person for the job. And that sometimes was a man that sometimes was a woman, and they were given an equal opportunity at that stage. And so because of that meant that up, it was just never a barrier at all.

And so that amazing mentoring was so passive that it was there from the beginning, just even just seeing those people and listening to what they had to say. And so many things over the years, dinners, even had dinners with Catherine. I've spoken to Fei at length. I can't wait to see Kate because I think we have a lot in common.

And I think just those conversations and that passive mentoring that happens every conference you go to, every chat that you have in passing, you're always grabbing bits of people's lives and seeing how they do it and bringing that into yourself. And so in many respects, there's a whole profession around us that I have to thank for all those little golden nuggets that they've left along the way that we all just kind of grab as we go and go, oh, that's so good. Look at all that.

I have to also call out. I have some amazing business partners and Honor Penprase was one of my preceptors for half of my intern year and then took me on as her business partner. And it's went on from there. And now we've had the pleasure of bringing in some more business partners with us as well, and empowering another generation as well, which is important. But I love this profession because of the sharing.

I don't think I've ever spoken to anybody that I can think of in the profession who said, I'm not telling you that, or I can't share that with you because of the giving nature of pharmacists, that empathy that Kate mentioned, that kind of, we want to lift each other up. We want to all be better for our patients. We want to do the best job we can. And so because of that, sharing our profession is richly endowed with amazing mentors, whether they know they're mentors or not.

And all you have to do is just be open to their time and what they have to say and always ask if you ask people, give, give. It's so wonderful and supportive. And I hope that that's reflected in the listeners that they also feel that. But just try it in a forum that you're in, ask and see what happens. Pharmacists are very generous. In fact, you might find it hard to stop them from talking, sharing with you.

many other parts of the world. In fact, this is about International Women's Day, and I do, I think if anything, I've always felt strongly that in Australia, because we are so fortunate to be in the position that we're in, I think the common thing here from Kate and Elise and Catherine and myself, is that we've been given the opportunity to do what we want to do in our career, in our lives. And in many ways I would like other parts of the world to be able to see this.

I would like to speak to other young women in other parts of the world who may not be in a similar fortunate circumstance to show them that it's doable. We are capable, we are able to achieve the things that we want to achieve in life. I've always felt that we do have a social responsibility being the closest in our developed countries in the Southeast Asia region. There's a lot of social obligations that we should continue to play.

And especially I think as women, ourselves, as women leaders, there's a lot that we should be doing to help inspire other women in other parts of the world. And for ourselves is to never forget that we're in the lucky, fortunate circumstances that we're in and what we can do to help leave others around us, but also others that may physically, in terms of proximity, might just be located a little bit further away from us outside of our big island. But there are things through social media,

through the things that we say and what we can do. But even podcasts like that, I do hope that other parts of the world do get to hear this and see this, and we can lift womanhood together as in the whole world.

And I felt like whether or not it was just my perception, but I felt like my patients expected me to look different, whether it was, I dunno, more experienced older, not female, I'm not sure. And so I remember there was a couple of us actually that we actually put in a fair bit of effort to actually try and look older than we were when we first entered the profession, to just kind of help us with our credibility, which 15 years in now seems ridiculous now.

We spent a lot of time trying to look young. So it is just a funny, that was a challenge at the time. It was a challenge trying to have conversations with people and to feel like I was being the most helpful health professional I could be. And part of that is that the person on the receiving end of this information has that sense that they want to hear what I have to say and that they understand that I've had the appropriate training to say that. But now that I overcame it, I aged a bit,

but also they got to know me. And once they get to know you, it's fine. It's that kind of once you've been there a while, a friendly face, a recognised face. But.

there and it'd be like, Hey, it's me. I'm wearing the white jacket. Come on.

steroid. It was brilliant. I was sure they were going to take it. And they turned around and said, I might just ask the pharmacist if that's okay. And I said, oh, okay. And then this technician, he had a twinkle in his eye and he just looked at me like, I've got this Cat. And I said, yeah, yeah, sure, let's go ask him. And so they went up and they said, oh, this lovely lady. I wanted an antihistamine, but she's talked to me about this preventative

spray that I could use. And he goes, oh, that's really good. I might just ask the pharmacist. And they said, oh, could you? And he cranked his neck, he was looking at the back of the dispensary, but then he turned around and looked at me and said, Cat, do you think these ladies should take this spray? And I said, yes, I think they should. And we all just had this giant giggle.

It was just this moment where I just thought, you are going to get that bias regardless, but actually a good team has your back too. It was just this moment where we just, and so from then on that whole year, we had so much fun with that. Everyone thought he was a pharmacist. He wasn't even a white coat. I had my pristine white coat fully ironed. I mean, I was 21 at the time. I knew how to make sure it was white as white. And then they'd still ask him. But we had so much fun.

I mean we had so much fun with it, but it's right. There was a bias. There's a natural bias.

But he would 100% be turning the patients to me and say, well, I think she's the one that you need to speak to and she's great. And I used to be so thankful for that. I believed, I said to him, I said, I believe what you said was more credible than what I said. So certain times I would tell him to say certain things just to get the message across because at the end of the day, it's about how the patient receives and trusts the messages. But at least absolutely.

I was one of those people who asked for a mature haircut, put it this way, with the way I look just so that I could look a little more credible.

It'll just be interesting history and it will be just that.

particularly in New South Wales. I mean, I come from New South Wales where these pharmacy assistants deal with S two as well as recommending S threes and then transferring them over to the pharmacist to council as well. And I just think they're completely undervalued in our profession. I just think these women, they really come in, they nurture a lot of the new pharmacists that come in. They help them come in and they really are treated.

They're not retailers. They're actually, they give clinical advice and they're pharmacy assistants and often, sometimes they have recognition in 1, 2, 3, 4 pharmacy assistants. Often they've just done it for so long that they've done the training. They understand that knowledge, but the way they help those kids and those moms that come in when their kids are sick and the way that they help the elderly, I mean, I just think they're really undervalued and I wonder what their barriers are

when they come in. We wear a white coat, but I wonder what their true barriers are. And I wonder, I often, I just think about them. They've really, there's some great mentors that have helped me and I think they're undervalued in our profession.

And that motivates me as part of the health system to keep going back, to keep chipping away because make the future better for all of us.

It's really, you've got many hats that you wear on a day-to-day basis, but it's business and it's true ethics and it's true patient care and it's all those things. And I don't think any other profession is like that. Actually. I've often thought about what other profession has that balance, and I think pharmacy is really the one profession that does.

So we need to be there. And I think on International Women's Day, I do also if possible for the listeners, I also have a message to say that women's health is something that we mustn't forget to mention. Pharmacists do so much every day to look after women's health and women are in that unique situation where there are a whole lot more health conditions and health concerns that would affect a whole lot more parts of a woman's life cycle if you

like. And we must not forget that as pharmacists, as we care for women's health, we ourselves, if you are a woman, then you need to look after your own health as well. And I think often pharmacists, we look after others and we don't think about ourselves.

And imagine you're a woman in your women pharmacist, and the same challenges in terms of health would affect you equally, but yet you have to turn up whether you are having anything, the whole women life cycle, I think just highlighting that pharmacist because our accessibility can do a lot for women's health, but we mustn't forget to look after our own health.

And going back to the point that we mentioned earlier, it's about how do we as an increasingly more feminised workforce, what sort of policies we can have in place to make sure that our workforce, which is increasingly feminised, can be looked after from a woman's health perspective.

to share. So this one big question to try to encompass all the last bits, I guess I'd say if there was one, like your hopes for the future, for the profession, especially for women and integrated, if there was something that you thought needed to change that could be changed to better make the workforce a better place for women in pharmacy. So that's my big last question for you. So please, yes here, Elise, do you want to start?

Why at the end of the day it's not just what we want but what we could do to better support the people that we serve, the Australians that we serve, the dear patients that we see regularly and absolutely breaks our heart that we're not able to care for them to the full potential of what we could do simply because of the unnecessary risk takes placed on us simply due to some political circumstances or like to see the day comes where

regardless of your gender, your sex sexual identity, if you're a pharmacist, your full potential to improve patient's access to care and medicine safety can be really truly realised. Not just from a roles perspective, but also in the recognition and the remuneration that we receive as pharmacists.

We do love to care for patients, we do love to have the time with them as long as the remuneration comes right, remuneration for the businesses, remuneration for the women that are doing that, remuneration for the men, remuneration for the next generation coming through.

I mean, if we can capture the hearts and the minds of the next generation to come through to community pharmacy and keep people out of hospital through the community, what scope of practise is about keeping people out of hospital and keeping them in their homes and cared for in the place that they come to visit 17 times a year, which is their community pharmacy for it. If we can do that, I think that that plays naturally into the hands of females, but I think it's the entire workforce as well.

And so one thing I'd say change is really scary.

So I think the best thing that we can do is really when we see those people that have that spark in their eye that are really good, that have got something to give those women, those young students that come in and they just annoy you for a job because they've just got that spark in their eyes or those people that just haven't had that chance that have come from overseas faith and they've done their accreditation in Australia, but they just want to work with you as well.

I just think you've just got to not help them. You've got to advocate for them and get them in positions where they can make a difference. And I just feel like given of our responsibility and more as they come through, you've got to do that for other women because they're not like men. They don't go for it like a would white male. They just don't just have more insecurities and more responsibilities and more questions. And so you've just got to make sure that you say, I believe in you.

Let's do it. Let's get you there in the position where they then create policy, create decisions, they're in the room and just get those people with sparks in their eyes in the room.

And she's got a couple of kids and she does cooking. She's like on a cooking show once, like good chef, bad chef or something. Anyway, I just find her very inspiring. So if anyone's interested in what they should cook for dinner, that's relatively healthy for their family, but also is just wanting to hear about someone else's juggle. I really enjoy observing and admiring how she does it.

what outfit would make us look more mature and therefore more credible. I mean, just even this conversation, I thought that was my own little secret. Little did I know that the inspiring women that I look up to so much shares the same challenges, and therefore the more conversations like that we have, the better. Because then I just realised, hey, we shared similar challenges.

If only we were there for each other and maybe we can help comb each other's hair, but still to share the challenges and find a way to get through that together.

everyone, for International Women's Day and for making it possible. Yeah, I think this is going to be very inspiring and relatable for a lot of people and my story with looking older. Yes, I've actually had a friend, pharmacist, females who said the same thing, but I remember being in my pre-reg year and I actually did need glasses, but I was in denial. But anyway, so I did, got the glasses, went into the pharmacy. I remember my preceptor saying to me, wow,

you look so much older and wiser. And I was like, damn. So yeah, it's a shared experience and you just, words just escape you. But yes, that's when I got my glasses. Yes, very shared experience. I think a lot of people find that relatable.