Welcome to the A JP podcast, A podcast for pharmacists by pharmacists where we discuss current events, relevant topics, and emerging issues. I'm your host, Carly Oo, and together with the A JP I'm bringing you the opinions and expertise of different pharmacists to discuss their views and insights on topics relevant to pharmacists. Please like and rate each episode and subscribe to the podcast so you don't miss an episode. Is it okay to ask you to do your introduction?
Yep. So I'm Emily Gryphon. I am also known as the Encapsuled Pharmacist. I work across practise settings, which we'll find out a little bit more about later on.
Thank you. Emily, you describe yourself as a pharmacist coach. Can you please tell us a little bit about what a pharmacist coach is?
So I'm not aware of other pharmacist coaches out there, but I can tell you what I do as a pharmacist coach. Firstly, I am very grateful that I'm considered an expert in my field and that I am considered an influencer in our profession. I love sharing my skills and my vast experience with others to help them become
better pharmacists. I initially became a pharmacist to help people, and I found that coaching pharmacists not only helps pharmacists, but it also helps the patients that they serve by improving that pharmacist skills. This is obviously very broad, so in particular I love to help pharmacists who are becoming credentialed in home medicines reviews or who have recently become credentialed in RS, or those people who really want to build their confidence with their work in this setting.
A lot of the time it comes down to working on communication skills, whether this be written or verbal with patients or with other health professionals. Additionally, there are people who are always fascinated with the varied work that I do and the life that I have created for myself. So pharmacists often reach out for some guidance on how to achieve something similar. Helping people achieve their goals is really fulfilling, and it's just another way that I can help people.
Emily, so you wear many hats. Can you please tell me about the many hats that you wear, how you created these opportunities and how you balance everything?
Yeah, so I do have a very varied work schedule. Firstly, I run my pharmacy consultancy business. I offer services for patients including home medicines, reviews for health professionals and businesses, including creating educational health content and for pharmacists with the coaching side of the business and offshoot of my business is my Instagram page called the Encapsuled Pharmacist.
I guess you'd probably think the very work of my business would be enough, but there are just so many fun and fulfilling roles we can have as pharmacists. So I also work across practise settings, including I work as a hospital pharmacist at St. Vinny's in Melbourne. I'm the rural Pharmacy liaison officer with Monash University School of Rural Health. That role sees me promoting and supporting the rural pharmacy workforce.
I work with the undergraduate and postgraduate programmes at Monash Uni Pharmacy School, including as a skills coach for fourth years and leading their rural health topic as well as teaching on the master of clinical pharmacy and teaching and examining in the Monash Medication Management Review training programme, which I was lucky enough to be involved with creating. And I have a few different research projects on the go at the moment.
Okay. So that's probably one of the most extensive hats that I've heard of people wearing. So what I might ask about is tell me about how these opportunities came about and how you balanced them all.
Yeah, I guess I was trying to think back to when it all sort of started, and I think I really started diversifying when I became credentialed or accredited back then for home medicines reviews. I was working full-time at a different hospital, but I did have diversity in my day-to-day there because I was building the statewide pharmacy service for voluntary assisted dying, and I was delivering this service most days per week, but I was also working in oncology one or two days a week.
So I guess not only was having variety kind of essential when working in an area like voluntary assisted dying, I found it really fulfilling and I found that I could help a variety of patients across areas in my work week, which meant I could use different pharmacist skills on different days. And
I think I was also studying my master of clinical pharmacy at the time. Fast forward a few years, and I ended up asking one of my new employers about part-time work for an advertised full-time role so that I could accept two jobs that I had on offer. And yeah, thank goodness I found these managers that believed in my skills and dedication to get the work done in reduced hours, and they were happy to give me the opportunity.
This was when it really allowed me to work in the hospital and the university and on my business as well as the other casual or ad hoc sort of work that I do. Probably for me the most or one of the most significant opportunities or changes with my many hats was finding workplaces whose culture and values aligned with my, I think you don't realise the impact that a workplace culture can have on you until you experience one that's so different from what you're used to people is the other aspect.
I've met so many incredible people and other pharmacists throughout my different pharmacist hats.
Thank you. We are definitely going to be discussing workplace culture and your experiences a little bit later. I thought I'd ask you just for now that you are a pharmacist influencer, I'm sure that there's lots of pharmacists out there that are interested in becoming a pharmacist influencer. I definitely interested in how you started and how you maintain your profile as of an influencer. Could you please tell us about it?
Alright. I guess the pharmacy influencer aspect comes from my Instagram, the captured pharmacist and my LinkedIn pages. Going back a few years, I'd been really wanting to set up a pharmacist Instagram page for many years, but I felt too nervous about the potential judgement from
others. So it was something I put off for a really long time. In hindsight, I shouldn't have factored this potential judgement or made up judgement in my mind and just started, but obviously I still had a bit more personal growth to do at that time. There became a point when the health misinformation on social media really seemed to be at its peak, and I thought it was dangerous for the general public. That's when I really just got out of my comfort zone and started the faceless
account. It was very different back when I first started it. I started my page initially to help combat the health misinformation on social media and to advocate for pharmacists. I think in general, pharmacists are generally not well acknowledged for the work that they do, so I really want to showcase some of that amazing work on my page, and I think I stayed pretty true to my initial goals for my page. People did want to see more of my own work and life, so that features a lot more now as well.
Through my Instagram and my LinkedIn pages, I've been able to have a lot of conversations around workplace bullying disparities between healthcare and rural and metropolitan Australia, and a lot of work around pharmacists as well, which has been great.
And then I guess one thing just sort of leads to another people find you and they want to interview you or write an article about a topic being awarded Early Career Pharmacist of the Year at the Victorian Pharmaceutical Society of Australia Awards Night in 2023 was a celebration probably of all the work that I'd done as a pharmacist leading up to that point. And at that stage I was named one of Victoria's most influential pharmacists.
So since then, I guess I've been interviewed a lot more and by national and international magazines and podcasts and I was a speaker at a keynote speaker at a conference, and I've been hired as an expert in my field for different contracts. So yeah, it's been pretty crazy.
So when you started off as an influencer, you probably started sharing some of your insights and some of your views, and as you further developed, because you've already mentioned that people wanted to know more about your life, so you've obviously engaged with your audience to understand what they wanted to know more about and adapted in that respect.
You've obviously grown your followers as well, so you've obviously, whether it's understanding what the market wants or whatever you've managed to grow your profile and build it. So what I might ask is people who want to have an influencer profile or people who want to actually go out there, and what advice might you have? And tell us a little bit, I guess a little bit more about the specifics of your journey, I guess maybe that.
Yeah, sure. I guess I'm laughing because my intention wasn't to be an influencer pharmacist. I just wanted to help combat some of that health misinformation that was on social media that I was seeing on my personal account and yet to showcase some pharmacists in our community. And then, yeah, I guess with that, people sort of message you and they thank you for sharing different stories or they ask if you can share a bit more about different aspects of your work or life.
So people are really interested in the diversity in my day-to-day work, and people were also probably very grateful and very interested in the workplace bullying aspects that I had shared on my page as well. So that wasn't something that I had spoken about really at all until I was a keynote speaker at a conference in early 2024, and I decided to share a little snippet of that component of my speech on International Women's Day about workplace bullying.
And I think that resonated with a lot of people and people wanted to hear more. So that has been sort of a topic that has come up quite a lot.
So I would say that it is very brave to talk about an experience because you're not the only person who's experienced workplace bullying, but you are one of the people who are being the most vocal about it and sharing your experience. So I might ask for you to tell us, well, I guess a little bit about the experience and you sharing it with people. You probably heard a lot more experience out there. It's probably a lot more common than people actually, than people probably envisage.
So if you could tell us a little bit about your experiences and your views on workplace culture bullying and company culture.
Yeah, I think I knew that I wasn't alone in my experience just based on the way that I knew people were being treated in that workplace that I was in. But having experienced that myself, I didn't want to not do anything about it and potentially miss that opportunity to stop others from experiencing what I had
experienced in that workplace. And yeah, when I started sharing some of those experiences, I got a lot of messages from people either thanking me for sharing what I had been through or telling me about their own experiences in their own workplaces. And a lot of people that seem to message are currently experiencing workplace bullying or are in a toxic workplace and feel that they can't leave that situation.
So I think that's probably another aspect that people want to know more about is actually being able to leave that culture. For me, I didn't intend on leaving the workplace initially, but it was only when I got a little bit further down the line that I realised how ingrained this toxicity within the workplace was that I decided that wasn't something I wanted to be a part of.
What I might ask is when it comes down to, because I myself have spoken to pharmacists that just as friends and colleagues, we talked about bullying, it's not always from the top down. Sometimes it's even the people that you're working with in the pharmacy and it just leads to you waking up in the morning and thinking, do I have to do this again? Is it worth it? And you try to convince yourself of all the reasons why you should stick it out or why you're going to be loyal to the company and try.
But I guess what I might ask is what are some of the signs that it won't change? What are some of the signs that it is enough and to leave?
Great question. I've always been a very strong advocate for others, and I was brought up in the way to treat other people in the way that you want to be treated. And I can say that this is what I live by. Bullying was commonplace at the organisation that I worked for, but no one ever spoke about it. And in my situation, I ended up taking things further, but unfortunately, management and human resources didn't know how to conduct an investigation or mediate or remedy a the situation.
And it actually went further than that in the situation, and I'm sure I'm not alone in this as well, where the people higher up then tried to blame me as the victim, tried to sweep it under the carpet, tried to threaten me, and also tried to silence me. I don't understand why an organisation would take that approach, but when I realised that this is the approach that they were taking, that's when I realised how ingrained it was. And for me, that is a toxic workplace.
So I guess having that realisation was when I decided that I wouldn't be staying around in that workplace, I think because it wasn't ever spoken about in that workplace. It was the culture to be bullied or a bully there. But I think that if people do speak up about it, it's sort of one step towards people not being able to be silenced about their experience. And I thought for me that I would not be silenced by an organisation and that I would try and help other people.
So that's why I've shared some of the experiences that I've had. And being on the other side of that now and finding workplace cultures that are welcoming and compassionate and friendly and really respectful are so much better aligned with my own values and how I like to deliver care as well. And if I hadn't have left that workplace that I was at, my career would not be where it is now. And honestly, my career has gone up and up since I left that place.
And my only advice to my past self would be to leave sooner than I did. And I know it's easier said than done because I stayed in that workplace for years. So I think that's probably an important thing for people to know as well, is that I was in that organisation for many years after the type of culture that it was, but it was a big internal battle for me because I loved my job so much and I loved the patients that I cared for and the impact that I was able to have.
I also received a lot of positive feedback from patients and from their loved ones and from other health professionals. So in some ways I felt that I couldn't walk away, but I did stay a lot longer than I should have.
Can I ask that when you're in that situation, it's also, so we'll talk about the HR and the management bit because really important as well, but I guess even your colleagues, because sometimes they found a, it's not even a way to survive in that situation, but then by you bringing it up, you make them feel even more uncomfortable.
Sometimes people think that that's the best that they can have or that they found a way to live with it, and then when you bring it up, you make them feel, yeah, it can make your colleagues actually turn against you sometimes as well. So I guess I'd ask about the colleagues that were there. Did you find 'em to be confident? Did you find them to stay away? How did you find the whole environment as you were going through the process?
That's a really interesting question, I guess. So my bullying came from my direct management and then it came from higher up management as well. So unfortunately, I think everyone's a grown adult in the workplace, but for some reason people can be really heavily influenced by the other people in their team and their managers. So unfortunately for me, it was a case of my manager treating me very poorly. In fact, that is a euphemism.
My manager bullying me relentlessly to the majority of the team also treating me in a similar way.
That's the part that people don't always understand that sometimes the manager's starting out, but then it's you actually being quite isolated in the whole process. So it takes even more strength to try to stand up to it because yeah, you're fighting the whole system and even your colleagues and the environment, they've accepted a hundred percent. So when people turn to hr, they're looking for an unbiased help. People that want to hear and understand your story.
People then have integrity and values, and you do read integrity and values of companies. They're great. You hear them at conferences, they're mentioned lots. Integrity is right up there. And sometimes you don't actually find that support. And like you said, sometimes there are silences, you're silenced or you are threatened, but definitely there has to be a bad guy in it and sometimes they turn things around to actually turn them against you as well.
So what I would say is, I guess for people that want to try to change a system or what might their expectations be, did you learn anything from the process with hr? Is it mostly once you realise that HR and senior management are not supportive that you're out, what would your advice be?
Yeah, so tricky. I think I trusted the system that I was in that people higher up would know how to deal with such a situation and the incompetence you would call it, I guess, was unexpected for me. So I guess when you realise how broken the system is, it doesn't really leave you with much choice.
And are there any warning signs that you might suggest, whether it's even in job advertisements, whether it's in interviews, whether it's in your honeymoon period at work, when you first start out, are there any warning signs that you think now stand out more? In retrospect.
A hundred percent. There are definitely warning signs, and I think I probably chose to ignore a lot of the warning signs in the beginning. It probably comes from, I guess in my experience realising that it wasn't a positive workplace culture, but then it was only sort of after being there for a longer period of time that I realised it was certainly not positive, it was actually toxic, and that there were many people who had left that organisation because of bullying.
And most of those people I understand never took their never their own circumstances to higher up. They just chose to leave.
Can I ask you what some of those warning signs might've looked like?
Yeah. Well, I guess just going down to the simple positive workplace culture aspects that now to me still seem surprising in positive workplaces. And this is a year and a half on, so people responding to your good morning in the morning or saying goodbye at the end of a day and which for some reason in such a workplace seemed impossible for most people to actually do. That's probably a big one. Another aspect would be people not celebrating or being happy for your success.
I don't think that's a good sign either. Whereas now in my current workplaces, I am often getting emails of praise from my manager or often being celebrated by my team or management. And again, to me, it's still surprising when that happens because that's not the culture that I'm used to. Even though before I moved to, actually, that's probably an interesting consideration too.
I've told many people of this aspect of my experience with that workplace as well was that I'd moved from rural Victoria to metropolitan Victoria. So Melbourne and I had been a country rural areas that renowned for being friendly and welcoming everyone by name. It's a great culture to work within, and I love my time in rural Victoria, but I didn't have much experience with the city.
So moving to the city and to a new workplace, a much larger workplace, I just thought that part of what I was experiencing was city people and that maybe city people weren't as friendly as people in the country. And I think probably when you are in such a situation, you do, you try and find excuses for people's poor behaviour. Maybe that's just part of being a positive person also. But unfortunately, there was a lot more underlying in what was to come.
So I guess what I would say is, has anything changed there? Is it all still the same from what you're aware of?
I try not to find out much information about the previous workplace I've moved on. But I think, yeah, again, it's when you leave a toxic workplace that all these stories seem to come out of the woodwork, unfortunately. And for a long time, I probably protected that workplace and my experience probably as well.
But now that I speak quite openly about it, a lot of people can resonate with stories that they have heard of, friends or colleagues being there, or personal experiences of that workplace as well, which is really sad.
What I might want to highlight is that you've been sharing your experiences and it has led to an enhancement of your career as opposed to being a career limiting move because a lot of people hold their experiences believing that they don't say anything, then yeah, then it won't block their opportunities and they don't want to seem like, I don't know, they're a disruptor or whatever.
There's lots of different reasons why people decide things, but I guess I wanted to share and highlight that for you, it has actually led to more opportunities and the right opportunities.
Yeah, a hundred percent carleen, that's really important to bring up. And I think for a long time, it was almost a year after I left that workplace that I decided I was going to talk about it because for me, I was still feeling trapped within that culture or within that experience that I had. And I thought if I had gone through this experience, I couldn't be the only one that had.
So for me, sharing that experience was a way to help other people feel that they weren't alone in theirs, and also a way for me to show that workplace that they don't have a hold on me and yeah, they don't have a hold on me.
You said that it's taken a while to, and I'm guessing you're probably still in the process of getting your confidence and identity back. I might ask you about that process and where you are in it and how you're finding it.
Yeah. Thanks for asking. It really has been a long road back, and I guess, yeah, probably as I said before, it probably comes across that I'm still getting my confidence back, which initially makes me annoyed to face that fact. But it shows the negative impact that people like that can have on people's lives. It's not a reflection of me or victims, though it's a reflection of the people that choose to treat people that way.
I don't understand it and it's not how I choose to treat people, and I can only control how I treat others, and I certainly don't choose to treat people the way that I was treated in that
workplace. As I sort of touched on before, it does still seem crazy over a year and a half on that, I still find getting a response from a good morning or a goodbye as surprising in a workplace, or that when I get an email from my manager that it's usually of praise rather than an email where someone's dived through my work from the past week to try and find something to pull me up on, or manage management and my work colleagues celebrating my success or
being excited about what I'm doing outside of work. And that's a reflection on those workplaces that now I've worked with that how wonderful they are and how much better life is on the other side. And out of that toxic workplace.
I guess it's really important to highlight that the impact that these workplaces have on you is phenomenal. You might, you'll question yourself, you'll try to justify some of the actions. You'll look around you and say, is it just me? If everybody else is staying around? You question so many different things.
And there's probably gaslighting in the situation as well, and especially when you've got higher ups that you do trust in the process because yeah, admittedly a few people probably have had experiences where they've gone to HR or to senior management and they've realised it really is a company cultural thing, and that's really hard to grasp that there are some companies out there that really do allow people to be treated or their employees to be treated that
way. There are laws in place and it, it's interesting, yes, culture is still a challenging one to prove as far as laws go, and people try to skirt in the level of grey, I guess. But the impact that it has on you, I guess, is really finding your confidence to say, no, that was not okay. No, I don't deserve to be treated like this, and no, this is not going to bring out the best I can be in my workplace. And also, you're looking at a long-term thing.
So if you're thinking you might want to stay in your job with the company for 10 years, you're thinking 10 more years. You have to ask yourself so many different questions. And also the best person that you are bringing home to your family as well, because when you have so much going on in your workplace, it's taking so much out of you. How much more do you have left at the end of the day when you come home?
I guess they're probably just some of the things for the audience to think about because it's got a much bigger impact than what you might initially think, and to regain your confidence and to regain your sense of self afterwards. It really does take time.
A hundred percent. And it's not normal to be turning up to work anxious or having a panic attack on the way to work or crying at the end of a day. That's not how you should be feeling because of the way you're being treated in your workplace.
So I might ask you for some advice, so for some advice for two different groups. One is if you are teacher high management in a company and you are confronted with a situation like this, how could they better handle a situation like this?
That is a fantastic question. I'm sure there are many amazing hr, HR teams and management out there that would 100% deal with a bullying complaint or situation much better than the experience that I went through. And I know in my current workplaces, if there was a situation where I was being treated, how I was in my previous experience, that I know that it would be handled very differently based on the fact that the places I currently work in, they live by the values that they have on the wall.
So I guess for the teams and for the management that maybe don't live by the values on the walls or perhaps usually do sweep things under the carpet that maybe consider how I believe people should be handling patient care, which is to put yourself in the shoe of that person. If you or your loved one was being treated in that way, how do you believe that HR or management should respond to that inquiry?
I might ask you for some advice for pharmacists that might be asking themselves some of those questions, asking themselves, am I being gaslit? Am I imagining things? Is this going to change? Can I stick this out? What advice might you have for people who are asking themselves some of those questions?
I think if you are asking yourself those questions, there must be a problem. I have not once questioned asked myself any of those questions since moving to workplace cultures that are more aligned with my values. Whereas in the workplace where I was being bullied relentlessly every day I would ask myself these questions or other questions and try and find and find justification for the way I was being treated, or try and find justification for that person being the way that they
are. But at the end of the day, these people are your colleagues and your managers. They should be treating you with the same respect and care that you should be showing your patients. There's no reason why it should not be the same for employees.
Thank you. Is there anything you'd like to share that I haven't asked you?
Well, I don't think so. I think you've gone through everything. Colleen.
Thank you. Thank you so much for your time today. I think you've given the audience a lot to think about, and I guess maybe some questions that they should ask themselves and having some confidence in themselves to say, no, this isn't the right place for me, or, yes, this is the right place for me, and imagine themselves feeling the same way or worse in a few years if things don't change.
Yep, a hundred percent. I can't even imagine where I would be now if I had stayed in that workplace. I was already a shell of myself when I left. Yeah, it scares me to think so. I am very glad I somehow got out of it when I did.
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