Hey and welcome back to the 824 podcast filmmaker. Mike Mills has made no secret of his love for the talking heads and a conversation between Mike and David Byrne has been at the top of our podcast bucket list since 20th century women. We finally got them together last month. The morning. After the New York Film Festival premiere of Mike's newest film. Come on. Come on. We hope you enjoyed the episode. You can see C'mon. C'mon, in theaters Nationwide
this weekend. We can't recommend it enough. Hi, this is Mike Mills. And I'm super honored to be here with David Byrne friend of Mike's. And I'm thrilled to be here on a New York morning. Yeah, and we're doing an 824 podcast. I have lots of questions. Could I ask you a question? That'd be awesome. Okay, that's Hopper seen this film. But yeah, this question Harper has seen parts of the edit. So I edited it all through the
pain. Democrat, right, and alone in my office are ever casting remotely. And in the morning, I would do Zoom school with hopper like 12:30 and then I go edit. So often Hopper and I'm down in my office. That's yes. I have as I real Advanced sense of Art and the meta-analysis of like my films about people. I know a very in tune with it, gets it more than I do. I actually think huh. I said to them, I think I want to make a film. It's kind of about us a little bit.
It starts there, you know, and when you think about that and Hopper said is that you mean like like, you know how people are really huge and if you're lucky and we make a film about them, you might get a sliver of that person, but there was all this hugeness leftovers and I was like, wait, that's what I say about. My movies is like, now, I know I've heard you say that and he's like in and I think opposites.
I mean, like, you know, you're very you're very repetitive, how How did, how did the script evolve I'm really curious because the writing it's it feels like odd conversation just being captured. It doesn't feel like oh we're following a script as is taking us somewhere. We know it with, you know, there's all kind of it doesn't feel like there's a plot line, hidden. It just feels like oh, these are almost documentary moments. It feels like that. But you that?
Well, how do you how do you write that? Uh-huh? Well, I think part of the effect they're talking about where it doesn't feel like Seen announces itself and it goes through an arc, then ends. A lot of that's actually also in the editing, you know, like finding we're obviously we shoot more than what you see and finding those points is actually a part of the writing process. Obviously, you know, it's like that editing process for me.
The suspension of disbelief is very thin or doesn't happen. So I had to enchant myself and it, like, trying to do a script and I not like a born writer. I'm not like a, I don't identify as a writer. A lot of times. I think it's a It's a very empowering when I write. I don't have any Pride about it. You know, I'm sort of by any means necessary. I had to like talk myself into a lot of have to re re convince myself. It's worth doing all that kind of stuff.
And one of the key ways that I can believe in. It is like a, if I know the person I've seen this stuff happened, if I coming from like a reporting place and, and also of like, yeah, there's someone usually, there's someone, I love and real life at the center of these last films. And also like some deep Challenge questions and I can't figure out that like turns in me and that look, okay, I can start writing so it started with stuff that happened in my life and
stuff. I saw Hopper do and also the world of Hopper like all their friends, people at school, other moms. I met teachers just like that whole world of childhood and my favorite way to write is to like something happened and I pretty much just like scoop it up and then the real writing It's like, how do you align, those things
too? That, make some kind of story, but I'm not interested in stories, have a lot of causality, you know, like, I like certain sitting in the space of it, you know, it has have some causality, are people get bored. But it's like trying to figure that out. So often I'll steal pieces. I heard or like Aaron dessner and from the national his kid Ingrid. Does that orphan thing, you know, so this is the we're at their house and they're talking
about. Oh my God. This kid does his harvesting, were they? All day long. They make me roleplay that my children have died and they've come to replace them and they have all these rules and I was like, that's fascinating. Can I, you know, I can like I sat on it was like a week later. They are in, could I take that? And I could I and then Aaron actually interviewed Ingrid like what is this story again? And he sent me some text things of it. That kind of process is my favorite thing.
I feel like alive. I feel like a journalist a little bit more than like a fictional writer. So that goes on for like a year and a half that kind of work, very alone. I like Right by like drinking a lot of coffee often listening to like something from rain Main and light on Loop and sort of like in chanting myself standing up, dancing around and do that for a long time. Then the wonderful thing happens where I meet the actor person and I love giving it over to them.
Like I have to give it to them to like change and do their own way and like or in this process me and walking talked about the script so much. It's how I convinced him into doing the Film like him and me reading it over and over again, changing things, having new ideas walking talking. A lot about not just his character, just the whole movie. And he's so smart. Interesting fun to play with is like a no, you must, I think musicians have this much more
than writers. Like, you get this Playmate. Mmm, and it brings out all the stuff in you and your intelligence just Rises and your the camaraderie to get to finish it. Right? Like I love that. So when you In these moments. You're not necessarily starting at the beginning and kind of working your way through and thinking about three acts and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, so I try to never do that or like collect a lot. So I'll collect for, like, six
months. Yeah. And just like, write in a notebook. I used to just doing a card. So there's no script around no, no digital. Anything. I've actually thought about stories of heard of you doing true stories. Like you just do all the pictures, right? Exactly. Yeah, I started with and that this Situation. Yeah, what do you mean by that? I would like an odd situation of an odd person. A person who's kind of a little eccentric right in this kind of location.
This Is How They Live. This is what they're fascinated with and then I had no idea how I was going to thread that. Yeah. Yeah. I've seen a picture of like you did a lot of drawings. Yeah. Sounds like a visual. Yeah, like expect physical situation, right? Exactly. Wasn't exactly storyboards, but it was on the way to being storyboard.
Yeah. What I love to Do maybe one of my most favorite things is when I'm discarding by myself and I'm taking a bunch of pictures like Chinatown between two Bridges to figure out and I have thought about that process of yours a lot. Because in then I get these images and I start doing that, moving them around on him and I PDF and I kind of figure out the texture of the film visually rather than something like Words black and white. Uh-huh. Did you wrestle with whether to
shoot him? I can white or not, or whether like what that might imply, what people might think of do. You think ahead and go? Oh, well, people think of this and yeah, for sure. I love black and white movies and they're their own species. And I'm old enough now. Like, got to do it, you know, and, and then just in my heart, I would love to do it. And then this story came around and there's one part of store that I always saw a black and white. That's like the male, the adult
figure and the child. Figure just like walking through space like that image. Hmm. And walking through cities and to me that it's in black and white it because it has like an archetypal Fable quality to it. Yeah, and when seems to make some a black-and-white really exception abstraction, I feel like you've said to the audience. Okay. This is a drawing or this is, this isn't saying it's reality.
It's like something different and it gives you sort of more Elbow Room. I feel like it's a filmmaker like totally, you can shift around easier. And it does crazy things as Sound. And Music, I didn't like my sound mix to this movie. There is so much fully. There's so many backgrounds. It's like just chock-full of sound and the pink black and white allows that more of that to come in, you know, it requires more but it just eats the sound and you enjoy the
ride. I think the sound replaces the lanes at where the color or something like that. Mmm, and I've never do that kind of stuff in my other movies, like if joaquin's hand goes through his hair. Its Fleet to out, in addition to the production sound. It's a super layered sound and and the Foley was so real fully
stages hardly exist anywhere. Now they exist in the country of Georgia. There's like one of those love film studios that's got the real fully staged with a different pins into gravel and all kinds of stuff. And these guys are my amazing Zach. Severs, my Atomic sir, he be we're in this big beautiful stage and happy like at that roller skates. Don't sound right? Like those are not And wheels as are you know other Wheels like and hear it, I'd see him texting
and then like 20 minutes later. I hear like the right sounds like we texting is like the country of Georgia is there and so all the sound of my movie actually is from Eastern Europe. I get what you're saying that that black and white. Is a little bit of a distancing effect. Yeah, it kind of says yeah, this is Not quite the real world. Yeah. Looks like the real world. Yeah, it has a very close resemblance to the real world. But we're telling you a story here.
Yeah, we're telling a story. I really. And I like that bunch of reasons. Also my film me, and the subject matter of this film could be so too, sweet. You know, I could be. Oh, yeah, I wrote you about that nice, but that's one of the decisions that I knew my Tendencies. Like I just want to go. Give everyone a hug, huh, and you got to can't just do that all the time and Joaquin. And I worked against that a lot and really nice productive way.
But also like black white will help this like, it'll help to take this. Take some of the sauce off the child image. Yes, you know, and off of my Tendencies, you know, so that'll be positive then making it like you frame something of a black-and-white. You're like, oh, the way that window is against the back of your head. It's like a visualization of your energy. Like so many of the frames in that movie feel like German expressionist to me like the crazy. Oak trees, in New Orleans.
Oh, yeah, when you're talking about like by a bipolar dad's, like it's the your brain was like, glue the two things together more are. Speaking of that. I wrote to Mike. I'm talking to the listener now. Yeah, saying how it was. I really noticed how a story like this could very easily slip into kind of syrupy sentimentality. That kind of thing, but you
never went there. You kind of waved at it, but never completely went in there at the characters and the acting and the writing all kept, it'll just a little bit odd and little bit off-kilter and surprising the things people would say. Because would say, We're all kind of surprising so they weren't like working your kind of your heart and all that. Hmm, you didn't feel manipulated and the way that you do when something is obviously sentimental. Yeah. That was.
Did you have to consciously? Think about that? Sometimes in go. Okay. Oh, no, I have to change that. That's a little too much of an obvious. Yeah. Need to be hugged. Ya know a lot. Yeah. That was it that was made when the majors May jurist, biggest concerns also because I I really I am old enough now to know like some of my strengths and my weaknesses and that's actually one that is a weakness of mine. Like II want a certain connective emotionality or enjoy
it so much. I want the song to have the course all the time. Anyways, that was one of the funnest things about me and joaquin's connection is like he's so hyper aware of stuff like that and just bullshit and They're all power dynamics when you're trying to manipulate an audience. Like he's really allergic to it
in a very intelligent way. Mmm, and I think he was happy that I was like really alive to any of his comments and that direction, you know, be like, please more what else what else smells fishy, dude, like let's yeah, let's have it all out. So that was really lovely. And that would I think he really helped make the film not sentimental and and being my partner in like always checking that. Yeah. In a way keeping all that at arm's length became like a strength.
On that sighs. Yeah, rather than a weakness. Yeah. I've watched it a little bit at Sally Hall and I kind of felt like something accruing, you know, like that that I hadn't experienced quite a weight like me, when easier from projected is so weird with a bunch of people, it transforms. I'm sure you've had this experience but like I felt like this weird way that like slowly accrues things and I was like I had so I hope it does.
It's like a nice compliment and I it's only after like so many layers of like work and editing and stuff like that, that maybe that That happens. But the other answer this question is like, walking is really so intelligent and Savvy. Gabby is so smart, you know, like Gabby and and hates bullshit and hates something that's trying to like, get get
you. You know, Woody is like that too Woody and he's British. He's very lovely is very like so mature and his most mature, much more mature than Gabby and, and, and walking, if I find that, that's not a cute joke is like he's much more professional, lots of ways. He's not performing for the Camera, like so many kids are taught to like like Shine for the camera. He needs often looking away. It's as if it didn't exist, he's even not super performing for me.
And I really sort of try to encourage that, you know, like don't don't just try to please me and he'd have that he has a strong thing. Anyways, he has like a real strong sense of self. How did you find him this casting? Just like the wow. Just came through in the first round. Wow. Yeah. That is well. Okay, that's pretty amazing. Yeah. Now, me and my came both, like this film might have in mind that it's to see if you could
get a kid, you know? Yeah, and then, like, he was a little like kid to very lucky in a way. Yeah. No, it's insanely lucky this. I mentioned this earlier. This is the first film I've seen in a movie theater. Well, since they inject a year
and a half, yeah, whatever. And the audience and I were all having this experience of not only is it a great movie but it's like So here we're watching a movie again in the theater and look how amazing it is. Yeah, and how I mean, it's Alice Tully's Film Festival. So it's beautiful projection. Yeah. Sound is great. All that kind of stuff. Yeah, but at the same time, you just thinking, this is the experience we've been missing. It's, I've had a really emotional.
We first showed the film in Telluride. And so when I added a movie, I never once saw it in a room with anyone else the whole time. Not once I was sitting next to your assistant, Yeah, and he said the same thing. He's honest. He's seen it many times where it's just him checking this key seated. A lot of times. Yeah, checking the sound quality in the injection quality and yeah, this kind of stuff and because we've never really seen it with him.
An audience. Yeah. Does it feel my crew sitting next to you? Uh-huh, and they, yeah, they're all so lovely that they got to see it there. I think that's like the best theater in the world. It's pretty amazing. Yeah, and my film Format is 166. You know something taller format. I have a picture of it. It fits right into the architecture like the proscenium is like built for my movie, and I think that was the highlight. I think that was it music in the in the movie.
I recognized a couple of I think I recognized a really early like Lou Reed. Yeah. Felt underground somewhere summative. This is when the right d wrote for Pickwick or whatever. It was. Yeah. He was like a staff writer. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just thought you know, you always think this is a guy. They hired as a staff writer that song, dude, that's called the ostrich and lyric shirt is off the wall. It's really such a lovely Farrell song and did it.
So I did it Irma Thomas long learned coming into, no, to Norland. Yeah, kind of whatever just felt great. So I was kind of looking for a New York song. Hmm, and I had to avoid you because I've exploited your catalogs, you much. So bounce around so many different things. Things. But then that one came out at that, I love how it kind of hard to place that song and it felt like it was in Johnny's record collection to me. Yeah, and then the desk nurse did the the score?
Yes, which is a really important part. I think people have them. Yeah. Highly collaborative Engine with you, or with the with each other. Everyone. Like they're so polyamorous musically. It's insane and and really beautifully so like I learned a lot hanging out with them. About collaborating and like, openness and like one of their songs might have like, eight different people playing on it, besides their band, right, you know, okay. So what was the process then?
So is all remote. But I started to talk to them before the before shooting because I've done this long project with them and I written a lot of the script at Erin's Studio Upstate or just while I was working on stuff with that and many ways. I feel like they really found the heart of the movie, like, the, the psyche is very emotional, but it's like trying to be so My platonic went wrong and they found that line more than anything. Yeah, it's not telling you how to feel but but is really
emotional. Yeah. Without that music the film does not want. Yeah. And then they did more just sort of symphonic e things because I thought I wanted because there's like a classical quality to the movie. To me. It's like part documentary part. Very now part very free and like Mike Lee film, you know, and then part like a fable 2 meter or like I thought about Casablanca. I like all the framings I cleaned. Ingles person-centered, you know, it's like old Hollywood movie in some ways.
So I thought I'd like a classical score like strings and all that. So, I learned, I learned a lot being around that, maybe it helps that you're not another musician. Yeah. No, it totally. So you're hearing things from whatever filmmaker, or visual point of view, or storytelling point of view, or some other point of view. And it's not like there are super into that. I didn't I because I would talk about each other as a story. How do you, how do you consume? Music?
How do you do? Do you listen to music? Do you make sometimes, listen to vinyl not all the time, but it's, it's a thing, you can go. This is very intentional. Yeah, listen cabinets recommend to turn it and you have like a connection or relationship, right? And certain records sound like amazing. It's like medicine. So like that will like, help me are like, when I'm, so, when I'm writing, I have to listen to music very loud on headphones, very well needed.
Well on Loop, it's it has, it's like a song or a record or a few songs, like on Loop. Hmm. All day long. Wow, so you say it's like an enchantment thing? Yes. Yes. Yes. Oh you yeah becomes because I just get myself out of the picture visual references. Yeah. Did you have once the original references you were conscious of besides the aspect ratio and yeah, of for older movies. So par lassic ratio is a nod to Allison the cities that are.
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that film was, that was like at times pretty depressed. After we left. Maybe 2016 really lost white man. Cultural space. What the hell am I? Do? You know, I mean, and, and also just Dad and and I kept watching else and cities are just parts of it. Mmm. And such a beautiful movie, such a beautiful space. You know, it my movie time.
I was like, man. He's as like a blues riff, you know, and kind of Fill In My Own lyrics and change it around, but like, it, I owe a lot to that in the kid. Where's the? Kid in the film was wearing a shirt that has the coat of arms of wuppertal, you know, the whole city where they end up and.
Yeah, so acknowledgment, but Robbie Miller's photography and that bright Alma, so gorgeous and like very classic and very sort of French new wave at the same time feeling to me and and Gordon Willis is just huge that cinematographer did like so many Woody Allen films are so many other films. All the President's Men, Godfathers. I-i'm always, I just admire him to death and all my films are been studying him forever. So you the visual references are
mainly other films. No, no, graphic art or paintings, or no. So that there's other things that are like these. I keep using the word enchantment which is stupid but Like I'd so I need so much talking into my own projects and ran is not like that at all. Like she's very convinced and I'm very unconvinced. I need these other things like be company and I often think of it as like these unrequited relationships of having with other artists, right? Just like jump in.
So like many or like a Bernard drawing or a David hockney drawing. That's part of why it's black and white to like those drawings have this egg. Weird, immediacy and sketchiness, but it's like this intimacy and quickness, and like, I'm right there. With David, Hocking drawing the person on the couch and that was part of. Like, I kept saying to myself, the movie is a drawing. Not a painting, like, it has
that. Yeah, but Rowan's feel like they're, they're closer to the head or heart or whatever. They're just like, right now, here's something right. So I wanted that at me and Robbie talked a lot, my DP, Robbie Ryan. We talked a lot about like that immediacy. And and for some reason, think the simplest like those men, a portraits of the person's to some black and they're right in the middle.
And there's something kind of Like it's beginning like that pain is beginning to be used as a representation of itself. There's some kind of like scum Bolinas and I don't know how to say that better. But like there's some kind of like it's he has like, a slightly amateurish quality. Mmm, you know, that's like kind of chunky or something like that. So just those adjectives like to me, I was sort of chasing those additives. A little bit like songs are big. They're definitely be a feeling
like this. I could The shift to the chorus of a song and that that will be like I'm going for that. You know, I got that feeling you said you had you kind of have to be talked into doing project. Is that from friends you talk to you? Yeah. Friends and go. I'm thinking about this. Yeah, and you want to see what their reaction is and yeah, that's part of it, but she they're all like that sounds so great. You got to do that. Well, luckily. I have friends who don't say
that. Oh, really help, you know, really? Well. Yeah, but but not that part. Or and I really rely on that and I love that more and more to me, art is like, a way to make friends or have connections with people like this, you know, it's the beautiful part of it. So, I seek it out too. It's like, I have a few friends. It's at the way I can get them to lunch during the pandemic. I watched all the old Hitchcock, uh-huh. Black and white British movies.
Yeah. Kind of the early stuff before he started doing the really well-known. Yeah. Move. He's I love them there. I think so different than what you do. What I would do there. So tightly plotted. So manipulative. So manipulated everything. Every moment is leading. You take a jewel. Yeah, and you just marvel at that. Yeah, the Clockwork. Yeah, aspect of that. During the pandemic, I couldn't eat a lot of trouble. Watching anything that was going
to be too emotionally traumatic. Absolutely, especially because I'd watch at the end of the day end of the day. Yeah, I'd make myself dinner and watch something and I just go I do not want to go to bed. Yeah. With something incredibly disturbing. Yeah. Emotionally disturbing in my head. Yeah, eventually I moved to Documentaries, which some of which, of course are disturbing? Yeah. I'm almost done with those. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I've gotten really into Farmar Germany. And the Bauhaus.
Oh my God, because it's like, it's stuff. I love about period. Anyways, and it's like kind of what you're saying. It's like, I'm going to be okay. I'm worrying about the rectilinear arity and and And in the relationship of weaving to Fine Arts. Like this is great. I could I can go to sleep. The other one. I do. It's kind of maybe someone we talking about, is I if I'm stressed out and panicky, which often happened that night.
I'll just think through Downton Abbey plot lines are just try to find one character story and I'll be asleep in like 10 minutes. I have a case, not with Downton Abbey, but I have occasionally done that where I go. Help what happened after that. Yeah. What happened after? Yeah, how did they do that? Is just to save yourself from your own brain. Realistic. Keep yourself out of your crocodile mouth. Yeah. Yeah. Can I ask you?
Of course, I've I would love to know, like you were so prolific and and continually, like, changing things, and Reinventing things and not relying on things, you know. Um, obviously that's just like your way are your you've committed to that like a long time ago, like change or but how the hell you do? Like, how, or how do you keep it going? Or I don't know. Is there a is there like a constant process to how you try to come up with ideas and their works and songs? Or first of all? Yes.
It doesn't always work. There's that a fair amount of have a really strong idea and then you go actually. Didn't ya didn't really work. Lyrics out job, drop-down phrases, occasionally and And so sometimes sit down and they'll just kind of pour out occasionally. I'll finish a record or something and I'll go. Oh, okay. I met. Yeah, I made a record. I'm really happy with it and I'll listen to what's kind of on the radio which yeah on the top pin or whatever and go. Wow.
I'm kind of out of touch. Not, not sonically, I don't think. Yeah, I don't think they were melodically. Yeah, but lyrically, I feel like we're There are other people doing a little bit what I do. But I feel like we're we're still writing about the same things. We would you mean you? I mean like the the not not that they'll ever grow tired. But there's the it just dominated by love songs or yeah. Pain songs. Are divorced songs this or that
the other all fine. Yeah. Oh good, but I feel like what could be more to It doesn't have to be all only that. Yeah, but okay. Yeah, but that might just be me. Well, I think you you like it makes me think of like you and like gang of four is some people, my life. You're like offered that up. Like there's another space, besides all those sort of like love songs, you know? Yes. And occasionally, I'd hear somebody else who does that and I'm scope. That is amazing that you can.
There's emerging artists, younger. Artists that I hear it. Yeah, don't do that. And I just This is really amazing. Yeah, I didn't know you could write about that. Oh, that's me. I didn't know you could write that way. Yeah, and it's yeah. Identity to you D feel like you change after hearing that or of course, it opens up ago. Not that I'm going to emulate them but feels like, okay, that has allowed me. Given me permission. Yeah, to do something. I might not have done before, right?
Right now. I'm back doing my Broadway. Yeah, which emerged out of a tour which I saw. This is amazing. Yeah. This is a kind of strange moment for me because I've committed to doing it for many months. Yes, months or so, which I might do that with a tour, but I already did a tour. And but in a way, I feel like and that's it. That's a physical show. It's a physical show. It's a, it's obviously, I mean, Commits me to staying in New York. Yeah, right. Right. That you have that.
It's a well it's because of what it is. It's live theater, live performance. You have to be there for ya. You can't just send it out into the world. Yeah. Physically deliver it delivered. Yeah, and but at the same time, I feel like it's something that It's a convergence of lots of paths and things I've been doing for a long time and they came together and go. This is yeah, this is the culmination of what I've been doing for quite a while.
Yeah, and now it's come together and being realized. Yeah. I kind of need to acknowledge that and let that rest and go and he's going with that. Yeah, before I toss it aside and yeah, see what comes next. Yeah. It's I Such a remarkable striking show and I did I did feel like that as a fan of yours long time or to sort of the whole kind of toilet, Tharp side of the experience and the theatrical side and all of your said, I don't have how I found it.
Like really amazing amalgamation of a lot of strands, you know, but then also like I like you had to tell the audience what you all are doing at the shahrazad, they had to, you know, The this is live and work in this. These elements are creating all this stuff. Even me. I was like, oh, thank God. You said that because I was trippin hard on how you all were making those. All that's happened is really and and on top of that, the physicality of it all the
choreography, like I don't know. I was so impressed that you think you keep you keep inventing stuff and keep like shifting it around and like every all the musicians. I know our soap they if you bring up that you saw that show, they all this fall over. I called the national guys. Let's see. If I saw all these different people like you saw that, you know, that's really good to hear. Yeah, that's really nice for me to hear. Yeah. Okay. I have other questions.
Yeah, if you don't mind, I don't know how long we're doing this for. I don't know and I don't this is just a totally selfish greedy question. And I don't know if you want to talk about or not. But I love true stories. I love Spalding Gray and him and that film and you guys together like like you him Laurie Anderson. The very magical people to me and that you guys share something to me. What was it like having him in the film? Or what was it? I don't know.
I don't know. I need this story's about, are you guys friends or like when you want another, a little bit. Not that much. Yeah. I knew his work and I just thought His his demeanor and the way he delivers and talks talks about things. I thought, can I get that? But have him actually be acting and not talking about himself and his own. Yeah. His own situations and thoughts
and things. Yeah, we're not to say that that's not acting to yeah, but yeah can have something that's a little more scripted and he could do was find you. It was all fine. And he was totally got it. Totally got it. Yeah, I mean, he comes out of the Wooster group where there's all this playing with the idea of what how performance might be. Yeah. Making it being very transparent and layering things and putting things together that don't belong together. It's yeah.
So he could do that and then occasionally he would improvise stuff which was great. Yeah. And some of that, who's some of what I was doing, was intentionally mixing people from different worlds. There was some non-actors. Yeah, there was some actors kind of from downtown theater, like, Spaulding, and some others and then it would kind of trained actor. Actors. Yeah. Like John Goodman and it's my mother's and I thought this is is this going to work. Yeah, that was super
interesting. But I thought some of them are. Might not enjoy working with the other one. Yeah. And had it had it be that was really inspiring, especially when it came out and I had like an electricity because of the heterogeneity of the Vibes of the people and their relationship to a camera. You can see, it's different feeling a different presentation. Yeah, and they, and then kind of commerciality of John Goodman vs. Spalding Gray like I thought that was super Punk.
Just the first of transgressive. I think I'm gonna in a great way. Yeah. I discovered through that and through other things I've done that you can you can take something. That's kind of On The Fringe or outside or whatever and then you put it in a different context and a kind of semi mainstream audience loves it. Yeah. I just discovered that by well working with the choreographer. Enemy Parsons on the show. Yeah. I'm doing now. A lot of the audience would
never go to see her own work? Yeah, but when they're seeing my show they are seeing her work. Yeah, and you realize oh, yeah, you just shift shift the context. Yeah. Or put some music to it or do this or that. And yeah, suddenly these things. That would be completely regarded as kind of fringy. Yeah, out or suddenly like oh, yeah. Yeah, that's fine. Yeah. All right. Like its signature part of your all year of work. It's like bringing in stranger things, and putting them in a context.
That's like whatever you want to call it like, more public sphere. I like more commercial is not the right word. But like not not ghettoize an art space. Uh-huh. Yeah. Yeah, that's sort of what, maybe we things you were doing early on working with musicians and things like that. Where, yeah, it brings. A very different sensibility into the kind of music world. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's interesting.
I went to Cooper Union and study another Hans Hawkeyes like a conceptual harness and all of us like broke Julian. Schnabel plates are like the in did different like low-end work in SoHo in the 80s and looked at Mary Boone, whatever and a bunch of us got disgusted or got whatever got like not disgusted that like a lot of the contradictions in democracies are like really Especially to like 20 year old us.
Yes. Yeah, listen areas, you know, so our way of being revolutionary was like, go into the public sphere going. For me. It's work in a company. Go into graphic design and be like, you know, I thought it was so radical.
It's really just so pretentious that you have to let go to Cooper. You need to think that being a graphic designer is radical, you know, but I think there's the the space that you're talking about in combining those different elements is very alive to what we were trying to do. then in a similar vein, I feel like speaking of ramen company. Yeah, I had my recall men, did that. Yeah. Yeah. Right now that Rob in my show and I saw their book that she
did too. Yes. Yeah. Book and their son, Alex, who is a really great designer. Yeah. Well, he designed a book of drawings that I did. Oh, yeah. It's yeah, it's yeah, that world is ski a little a little world there. Yeah, it is. How many things? How many projects do you work on? At a time? And how many different mediums are they? Do you need to like bounce between lots of things or bounce? Yeah. Between things a bit?
Yeah. Well, I think this would be familiar some things, you know, are going to take a long time. I try to kind of for you to think through it. Yeah. Try this. Let it sit. Yeah. Come back to it and see if you like it and all this, you know that? So I know. Okay. I can I can maybe put on On some music and draw for a little bit. Yeah. Yeah, I can't go and kind of try and write music for eight hours a day. Yeah, take two hours. Yeah, you're three hours. Yeah, really focused.
I can do that. And then, yeah. And I have to do something else. Yeah, the challenge is not letting that. Something else be just answering emails. Yes. Yes. Are freaking unzipping. Yeah, that's I can relate to that. A lot, although I don't draw any more. Really. I do graphic design very much like on demand, you know, they do it very quickly and I love it. But for some reason, I just I'm out of em out of that space. Uh-huh. I got to have my kid or but hearing you talk right now,
maybe. I think I'm going to try it. Sounded like it was great. What am I doing? I have another question for you, like, so love to ask you. You what are the difference between being a musician and being a director or free or obvious? I'm guessing you enjoyed being a musician more or like or how do they bleed into each other, Maybe? My limited experience being a director. I loved. It felt like you're really kind of creating a whole world. Yeah. It's Really seductive in that way.
Yeah. It's very collaborative. I like that. Yeah, I got mean. Eyes is a musician, you kind of do that anyway, and then now it's like, oh now I'm collaborating with it with the DP with yeah. Sound mixer with all these other people. Yeah. Who are really good at what they did? Yeah, it took me a while to kind of learn that graph, sine so solo, and then going for. So, from the get-go. Were you like that? Do you think? I got in, in terms of directing life.
Eventually, I mean I think there was a period both of my directing and of my kind of this this stay. It might be the stage presentations. Like the one that was filled. That Jonathan Demi from Brad. Stop making sense. Yeah. I was a little bit more dick every little dictator. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I said it has to be this way. Yeah, it's my way or the highway should be like this. Uh-huh. It all. Worked out fine, but it was not It could have been a much more
pleasant experience. Right? And I had and I eventually learned that I can learn from these other people that I'm working with. And also that if you as you explained working with walking that if you talk about what you're trying to do and they understand it. Yeah, they're going to help you do what you want to do the best. Yeah. You don't have to just order it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, are you going to get some more, a higher or see it? Part of weirdly? Is he a part of yourself? He didn't see?
Yes. Yeah, so we is true stories. Are you the dictatorial making that? Are you more? That was a, that might be me starting to come out of it because it had to be collaborative. Yeah, it's a film. So you've got the, the DP Ed lachman. And yeah, I deciders and all these people that they're Bring their own thing to it. And yeah, yeah, there's only so much. Yeah. I just thought I'd lock it in and Telluride, uh-huh.
Such a lovely Soul. Yeah, guys, and sees movies and like, comes out to me and like, we have, like, a deepest talk. I'm so honored that he like, takes the time to watch it and then so committed to the whole thing. Yeah. Just can't get, it is just beautiful person. Mmm. Yeah. Did you feel overwhelmed and screwed as a director? At times over. I mean that's so hard. That film was big too.
I think that film is big and you're in it that part I didn't really want to be in it. Yeah, I really was pushing for other people. There was a really like, who would be you that'd be impossible. I wanted to for a while. I wanted this the late weatherman. Willard Scott. Oh my God to be. That's a scenario writer. Oh my gosh. Isn't. Yeah, I could see it and then have wanted another idea. There's this radio guy. I forget what his name is and he's he's famous for this voice where it goes.
And now for the rest of the story, I forget what his name was. Yeah, like all over the radio. Yeah at that point. I thought that's the voice. Yeah. That everybody knows that voice. As in that peculiar weird phrase that he does. He see your kind of channeling that. Yeah. A little bit. Yeah. Okay. I can I can do kind of phrasing putting pauses in odd places Paris, have that performances. It's not exactly you obviously.
Yeah. I mean, it has a you quality that I when I say you the person I know from records and stuff but it is always like, oh what? It's a character. Yeah, a little B. Yeah, I was I was lucky had a Line producer women and Karen Murphy. Who was very protective. Yeah, can a protected me from a lot of the Ya-Ya stuff that was going on. Yeah. It was a big storm came by one time of destroyed, one of the sets. And yeah, so there was all this chaos and are we actually going
to get this? Hmm. I just kind of that's it. Hmm. I was somewhat sheltered from little bit of that. Mmm. Yeah. Anyways, it's so I super impressed at all the different really heterogeneous elements that come together like on a real signature way and that was your first and only. Yeah. Yeah. We're that. I just done music videos. Yeah and sort of Learned. Not that I was going to edit this but I learned a little bit of editing. I think we're on editing on like three quarter inch.
Yeah, video tapes tape the tape or a tape to tape and yeah it learn to edit a little bit that way and as seagrass didn't like the all that was I don't remember all this stuff then they'd go you have. Like if you're lucky. Yes, you know, if you were lucky you could go into online room and online room. Yeah. She's one inch video. Yeah. That was yeah. Oh, yeah.
When I worked at a company, I would guy got exposed to that little I don't think it was one of your guys is projects together, but it was T bodies to do and those Grass Valley. That's what this machine was called, Grass Valley. Uh-huh. And I had these levers, like, when you imagine an airplane taking off and you do dissolves and stuff like that is very manual. Yeah. We just made ourselves ancient too many people. Mmm kind of cast one last question it just if you want. Sure.
And just as a human, I'm curious. What do you know what you're doing next or like how far down the road do you? Think, do you have a new project? You're hoping for I have. Project next summer kind of an immersive Science Theater. Wow thing, which bunch of rooms and an audience or small audiences LED from room to room and as they go into one another audience has led in the first one. So that's supposed to be the way we get the numbers.
Yeah. High enough to justify it and they have kind of a kind of perception, altering experiences and then challenges to The guide be a character who totally gets gets you involved in a kind of an emotional story. Yeah, that takes you through it. Instead of it just being like a fun house. Yeah, so that's, that's a challenge. We think we've gotten pretty close to being that because you never know until you start trying it with an audience. Yeah.
To see what their reactions are in if they get engaged in that so that it made and that's in Denver that will be in Denver. Yeah, they found an old kind of army Warehouse that, huh? I mean yet the yet another like from the ground up project. That's like yeah, I don't think you've ever done anything like that. That sounds. So why don't you and yeah, but as with those kind of projects, I did a workshop of yeah years ago and it's I don't know. Eight years or so. Okay.
So tomorrow's your grows and you can't go. No, that doesn't work. Yeah, that's part Works alcohol. Well, maybe we should. Okay. I can do this all day long. Not for me. Thank you so much for. Thank you. Thank you for inviting me. Gracie. You quit. We didn't have a chance to talk after the movie or anything like that. Yeah, screening. So this was really, this good was kind of better, right? Yeah. Yeah, very sweet. Yeah, right. Thanks for listening. The a24 podcast is produced by
us a 24 special. Thanks to our editor Tom Wyatt and robot repair who composed star theme.