Hey and welcome back to the 824 podcast today. We bring you a conversation between Ryan Johnson and highlight filmmaker Claire Denis. You probably know Ryan is the writer and director behind brick Looper the best episode of Breaking Bad and Star Wars The Last Jedi after we released the High Life trailer earlier this year. We noticed a tweet from Ryan Claire Denis and space no trailer required.
We've since learned that Ryan the guy entrusted with the fate of the biggest movie franchise in history has seen every single Claire Denis movie though. He'd never met her before. For this conversation Ryan recently took a break from editing his new movie knives out to come on the podcast and talk to the legend herself. We hope you enjoy it. Hello. I'm Ryan Johnson, and I'm here with Claire Denis. What do you think about that? It's a great. It's a great meeting.
So Los Angeles. What is your relationship to this town? How do you how do you find it? I know you're here in a whirlwind very quick trip and mostly in her. Algorithms probably but of course this time it's two days, you know, yeah it size means nothing. I wish I could stay more because yeah after first surprise my first my first trip here, I was surprised and I had to learn how to drive in La you were surprised what surprised you about about the city.
So this whole big each district was so different. Don't you know and enormous, you know, yeah, and I had never experienced act1 if you want to buy something you have to drive on the freeway. Not for me. Yeah, I Street yet maybe but not a freeway and it took me maybe 10 days to be able to drive around and I was the manager listening some exit a long time with vendors when we were doing.
Paris Texas, I was we did you Preston in Los Angeles to the appropriate location scouting and I could prep area. Okay and a part of the shooting in the back. Yeah. Yeah. I was watching an interview you did where you were talking about the shoot and talking about getting in the plane to scout the devil's graveyard. Oh my God, but also have prepared you. Yeah, absolutely run by the band
territory. Yeah. Well in the exam crazy at that time and I told him we had in mind that maybe Harry Dean Stanton should cross over the Rio Grande. Hmm, and he told me maybe will be afraid it's nothing. I can cross the Rio Grande just like that once twice. I went. Yeah wheezing my jeans on and I get my shoes because it's full of stone. Yeah, and in the It was shallow. Uh-huh. It seems shallow and suddenly in the middle of it. There was a current so powerful.
I I could resist, you know, yeah. I was like a piece a little piece of get swept down. Yeah. Are you a good swimmer? I had a good swimmer, but the Rio Grande is much stronger than I am and I was watching you. Jim I turned around him he did not react at all. So I said hey this is not going to save my life in the end. I managed. I don't know it took me an hour to get out of the Rio Grande. Oh my God, and he flatly told me uck. I think it's not a good idea to do it with her and instead.
No, I don't think it's a good day his point was When she spent time there in the states and here and then in in New Orleans right with for philosopher, yeah for what as a poet Arthur. Okay what I say? Yes. Okay. All right, we're down by law. That was I don't value in. Yeah. Anyway, that's what I was thinking. Yeah. I know my little ones. Yeah, no Eileen and some bayous. Yeah, but you haven't shot one
of your own films. He's not my was I had already I came in. Rollins I was already finishing Scout my own scouting in Cameroon for chocolate. Yes. I think you could production with Cameroon. He's yeah government so I was ready in way. Yeah, but I had to wait for the good season. Yeah, so when Jim called me I said, okay, let's yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that must have been an experience do you get to after this trip to you get to rest for a little bit or do you have Were
no I was with him. So I was already like in a great shape, but I was not sure I like I like the people I was working with his but yeah, the city was a little bit strange for me. Yeah, it's a cold City and it said the second or the third time I came here. I realize it was a city very very cool. Hmm and where it's yeah. It's interesting to to stay. Yeah, there's a dark romance to the city. Yeah, I've been here since since
I went to University here. So 25 years and it took it took me 10 years maybe to discover that I liked it. I felt yeah, I grabbed her. It's not immediate. No. No, it's weird. But that's also why I think when you do fall for it, you fall the fall very hard for it. I think I'm in after so but do you get to after this? This round of press do you get to go home and rest for a while or do you still I go home?
Yeah rest, not really because there is I have to go to Germany and to England to also for the film from our promotion. Yeah. How is he? Yeah, but I will be home. It will be very good. What do you do to recharge? What is the thing that you're most looking forward? You get home you put down your bags. What is the thing? Yeah. Washing machine was until he gives a good reason to go by good piece of bread and stained better a bit and you know stare into space.
Yeah, I reading reading. Yeah. Are you reading anything? Good now, I guess you're not have time when you're on the road. No II have I wanted to go and buy a book. Yeah in the book store nearby. That Book Soup. Mmm. I hope I would go there. Yeah afternoon if I have the energy. Yeah. Well, I your films have have meant a lot to me for sure many years. I was excited and a little frightened to meet you and I loved I loved I loved high life. I thought it was absolutely
gorgeous. And I was it was very interesting the ways that it's The similarities it has two previous work and also the ways in which in each one of your films pushes and does things that the others haven't as and is coming at the same sort of stuff from different angles, but I thought it was absolutely amazing. I saw it in the theater just yesterday actually, and I'm so happy. I got to see it just feels like a film that needs to be seen in the dark. I think so. Yes.
I mean, obviously it was your first time doing an english-language film and I'm sure you've talked a lot about some of the differences the main thing. I was just as a fan of your work the one the main thing that struck me and I apologize. I'm sure you've talked about this a lot. But the fact that it was on designed sets as opposed to and the thing is the the the effect of that for me largely came through in your use of color and
the intentional use of Of color. Yeah, which by the you also I mean, I don't know if Andre de soie like you you do the same thing with the street the lights of the street at night and the impressionistic. So you always use color but there was something about the concentration of this. I thought that but I mean abilities well wasn't human. Yeah, and here we were shooting on digital. Well, this is interesting. What's your with and the reaction of colors are not all the same, you know?
Yeah. How did you could because what material? Film right was it wasn't? Yeah. So this is your first digital. No. No. No, I always let the sunshine in the widget on the best of did you talk was bastards? Oh, I didn't realize that. I love that phone. So no I wanted digital for the ship. Yeah, and not very extra Sunny.
Yeah, 10K, whatever I wanted. To a simple camera with Alexa Ray exact so together and then we knew we were going to shoot the Memoir the image of from Earth the forest with ya on the train and everything with the super 1600. That was super 16. Yeah, that makes sense and I did it with a young. Pretty sleepy. Yeah, very interesting to to go and be with ya four days with small polish group and the end of the film when they go into the black hole father and daughter we use 35 scope.
Oh, so it switches you can feel an emotional impact of it, but I couldn't tell you what this yellow light. Yeah, I choose it because it has It's a lie that kills a lot of other colors. Okay, it gives the skin a bronze. Yeah Gregory Niche gray bluish bronze color, you know the red Disappear Completely and I thought this is great for the black hole Yeah, because so many things disappear in a black hole Yeah, but of course we did tests and with olafur eliasson. The artist we invent is light.
Mmm, not for Black Hole actually invented slide in self or other things. But anyway, I told him I want this Ray of Golden Light. Yeah in the same at the end. Yeah, and I realize when we did it with the Sonny AJ and and I'm seeing him there was absolutely no no. No, you could not compare interesting. Yeah, because the the digital is fighting against the effect of that color interesting. So it's it's it right the
digital try to balance. Yeah. Yeah, you know, yeah, we still know some gives into it. Yeah. I'm let's head over to picket. That's very interesting. Yeah, I noticed you didn't what you worked with. Not your usual DPI gonna go directly to yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and yes was tired after the other fume and yeah, she was not so happy to work with a complete German crew because she was tired and sure sure. Sure Yorick. I knew Eureka. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I have I've always worked
with the same cinematographer. How was it? How was it just working with? So how did it affect your very good because it is a new me. Yeah in your knees and we decide. To settle something that I guess would have been maybe a little bit not so happy to do but we program all the light the day the night the bright day the the dark day. We rarely do lights with the program. They LED everything program. Everything was program. Yeah, and we it gave us a sort
of first of all it was fast. Yeah, and it's give us a sort of We Were He knows spaceship. Yeah. Yeah, which is are you preparing now? I'm editing right anything. Ah, yes editing and we are I'm pretty deep into the other thing. I feel like I'm making a it's a sort of like Agatha Christie a murder mystery when you I as a kid loved. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah I suppose so I'm using that to kind of explore something.
Things using that show and you're shutting La shot in Boston. I invest on yes, it's very cold. But this way it was the first movie I was asking because it's the first movie I had shot on digital. I'd always used film before and it was a big change. It is a bit strange. Yeah, but a to let me hear ya the first week of shitting in digital. So was the first move each other. Wise advice? Yeah, white material we wanted but then we test and also because of the heat mmm.
We were losing the pinkish skin of the white people just as it was colder. Yeah. He said it's not possible that Earth is red. Yeah Isabel skin is a little bit reddish red hair. Yeah, and we were lucky enough to find a Kodak not not a fast one a slow ones. Your phone because that's unbaked feeling of those exteriors is so yeah real lucky to have this Kodak. Yeah interesting. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's something that it's another tool.
I think there can be a tendency to just ruin understandably to romanticize film. I think especially with I talked to film students and younger filmmakers and there's sometimes almost a religious fervor about the notion of film as this. Yeah awkward thing and I wish I understood Stand the very religion about if you go to the new system don't stay. Yeah, and I think me what I like is books exist. Yeah, that's all. Yeah to use. Whatever is appropriate. You know?
Yeah, it's funny. I was having I went I got out of the movie. I had a conversation with my wife about whether because I felt in the ending hopefulness is the For me, it was a very similar emotional experience to the ending strangely of let the sun shine. Yeah, we're all all arguments to the contrary that this should be depressing and yet there's these two people who there's there's this the the the it did I know it's hard but it's fun. Yeah. I don't know.
I it's funny because my on the one hand and when I meet any filmmaker who I admire I want to ask process questions, but on the other hand, especially with your films that did There's Something about them that I don't know. I almost want to want to not live because because there's something about them that it feels very I don't know. It feels almost like to it field that they feel like they are such a pure expressions of your own succession.
I don't you know, yeah, it's thought for sure but then it's also because I'm a very tactile person. Yeah have to figure out what it will be. Yeah, you know which that that comes through that mean I think about Andre putting his feet into the dirt and that one's seen or I mean the all of the boat revive I mean all they're so so much in your movie. They I feel like I've had a wonderful hug with a very sweaty person. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you know, this is an exercise. They really do. Yeah.
The Army was her after a fight. They have to hug too chattering down. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's I mean, I don't know that's treason. You understand it. It makes so much sense. I make so much sense. Yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah, the meant that that film and the and that's something that is similar with patents. And in this movie the masculine the way that you yeah is feel that you take a look. Yeah to protect himself. Yeah.
I was reading I was he had been realized before and it's interesting imagining an older actor in that part. It's very very interesting. Yeah, I don't know why I didn't mind because I'm getting older too. Maybe yeah, I don't know. I was at that point. I was so fascinating. It was maybe my craziness. Hmm. Bye she keeps him off man. Hmm, and that's what the guy like that. He won't find. Fight every let it go. You know, he's tired with everything. Hmm. I had something in mind.
I mean he died. Yeah, and then the casting director tell me, you know, Robert you would like to meet with you. Hmm. But it's nice to you and the casting director said look me to is MM Robert told me now. He told me now that it was sure. Signal yeah, and he said I was trying to be not to show how disappointed are you and me and the opposite I found him. Yeah, extremely great and I said but it's the best.
I did never never I chose you, you know, do you enjoy the and I know for you the casting its you don't do auditions or re it's more it just connecting with people. Yeah. I do you enjoy that part of the process to you is That and also when you're when you're writing are you generally thinking of because you work with a lot of the same actors over and over you mess up time. I know one of them would be in the film because it's I've been
thinking about him. Yeah Baghdad for Robert it was strange because it was the opposite and yet declared after a little prediction. We yeah, I told him it's strange. It's like it's like I've been Knowing you for a long time. Yeah, I don't have well, I am curious your I don't know and I know it's a it's a term that is a not just the word science fiction is something that I always said no at a certain point. Yeah to tell my producer. Don't freak out.
It's not going to be Star Wars. It's simple. Yeah, it's a gel in space. Yeah, and also I realized working. With an extra fission while we were writing the script that everything there was already known there was no disc invention, right and it's true four days ago. You have seen the picture of the black hole. Oh, yeah, what a strange thing like ours units orange. The picture is orange like everything under your movie, you know? Yeah. Yeah, it's true.
Yeah, there is something that To keep it very simple and not to invert Extravaganza of the black hole is leading us to another Universe blah blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah, which in a way the scientist that don't believe yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's and your I don't know your user sci-fi. It's my favorite science fiction movies are the ones that use it the way that you do which is one of my favorite Cuts in the movie is when Mia God's character has
been Reg nated. Yeah cut to what first you assume is space is this nib or never?
Yeah, but it's a oh, yeah as you travel and you realize it's an interior space and I think that's a very good metaphor for the way that the best science fiction and the most thoughtful uses sci-fi and you very much do you very much use this movie couldn't you could not set this movie in a prison on Earth and it would be the same you use the science fiction and no are those elements in a way to get Deeper inside the voice actors. Yeah, and the fact that there is no going back home.
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah never. Yeah, they can't escape in jail. You can still dream maybe yeah not there the complete isolation. Yeah. No, it's very much. I mean and it I don't know how you feel about this Reverend. But to me, it's similarities to the way the tarkovsky used Science Fiction with stalker II think so Theresa. Was Solaris.
Yeah, and I still care for me. It's a masterpiece, but it was really also the shock I felt when on the way to the Zone when the black and white image cut to the color. Yes, I remember I thought I was going to faint.
Yeah. My heart stopped beating for a second and I wanted to understand why sometimes something that is simple hmm almost nothing black and white and color because in that context with the stalker on the machine suddenly and the noise of the machine which is turns and museums Ernie. I think this is Cinema. It's the mystery of Cinema sometime very little can do a lot. Hmm sometimes and it loves you.
One of the things in the movie that I think is a color that is not used in the modern palette very much is for lack of a better word. It's the wrong word, but I'll say the word boredom the the lulling you not being afraid to make you get to the point. Where you Are not just being a cape a where your where your lulled into and I think that cut very much relies on the 30 minutes that came before. It's very much like a minion. Oh, yeah, it's good.
It's like, it's Alchemy. There's a so, I think that in a hundred he's father's the point of view and the woman comes out into the streets and the headlights are lighting her up. And then you do a jump cut and she's gone and I remember watching that and feeling both of this. Of like this is the like you said like a little bit of a physical reaction to it. But it also it also felt like when you're having a night out, it feels like the way that you see the world at night in a strange way.
I don't ya combination. Maybe we still can it is even more Grant grandiose because it's nobody knows what the zone is and suddenly we understand. Wow. Yeah, there is a Zone. Yeah, it's true. Yeah. And there's own suddenly. Yeah became a dangerous place and the film not explaining it and this has similar. There's also with I life I think you know, the it it leg gives it room for you to take that and and plug it into the back of your head.
You have the shot. I'm sure it wasn't a direct reference but looking down into the water when she drops the fetus and the splash it reminded me of the well inside. Yeah, but you worked on did You were right II wasn't a sacrifice as vendors was also I see that's a connection that don't normally would use sacrifice. Sure. Sure. The Swedish people got it. And Andre was hated to be obliged to use French actress for the co-production. I say anyways terrible with the
casting director. Okay, and and that daughter asked me Claire, please go help me help him and at that time I had very short hair and Andre looked at me and I could feel immediately thought yeah, I told me I looked like Joan of Arc Lenny would accept me because he told me I don't look like all those French horn. U.s. Heart. Yeah, and you would be so so
many actresses. Anyways, yeah, so everybody's things good, you know, yeah, it's strange like him and and and and fighting terrible was the same scene, you know, because he had this pain in him, you know, mmm, he he was longing for his wife and son to come it. Didn't know yet. He had a cancer. Yeah, it was ignoring it. Yeah. Hmm. I wonder Ooh, I want to thank you so much for sitting down and being able to talk. It was it was a dive.
Like I said, I your films have meant so much to me and I was just really looking for it's a showdown in meeting you thank you. I'm not forcing, please. I know you are please please please really said, I hope we'll get to meet again. And yeah and talking and I survive this trip. I have a feeling you will when you go home. When do you go tomorrow tomorrow? Okay good and the doctor I've decided I am a very strong. Woman ten times to make sure I
won't forget. I coulda told him that you were instantly. Thank you so much. I haven't even seen her so I have my God, please. Yeah. Good luck with the rest. Yeah. Thanks for listening. The 824 podcast is produced by us a 24 special. Thanks to our editor Tom Wyatt and robot repair who composed our theme