Hey and welcome back to the a24 podcast. If you've been listening for a while, you know, the format we almost never pair two people from the same project together and we encourage guests to talk about pretty much anything other than their movie or show. This conversation is a little bit different. Knowing how close are we a stir
and Joaquin? Phoenix got during the grueling production of bows afraid, we saw a rare opportunity to let a director and actor speak candidly about They're creative Dynamic and the very unique set of obstacles. They created, and then overcame while on set, we hope you enjoyed the episode and don't miss Bo is afraid opening this weekend in theaters Nationwide. Hi, I'm Maria.
Esther and I am contractually obliged to do this podcast 4824 since they've funded all my movies, but they never give me enough time and I'm Joaquin, Phoenix. And I will not be speaking at all. And I'm going to be putting everything on Ari. Through this entire conversation. And there's no point in me agreeing to do this because Everybody knows. That t, we are. Angels, are by one asshole. What? That that, most truthful things that are walking, and then, hey,
how are you hungover? Yeah, and I'm not over you, but you're not, you just sick of it in this light, but they're not at a goat. Well, well, I hope they feel good. I mean there were a lot of friends there, so I've had one friend that's in the movie and they they texted I had a blast. That's good. Yes, I don't know if that's said that. Is that is that says Is here. I don't know what the hell it is. Yeah, it sounds like a variation on like, I'm at look great. Yeah, yeah, so this is what my
preference is for people. I know not to see anything. What I meant just because I don't want to have to go through that process, right? Like that's the worst thing about going to the formality. Screening is like the menu after as we will come up, they have to say something. It's always uncomfortable. Yeah, no. And then yeah. It's I also just don't believe anything unless somebody comes up and and they haven't been like brought up right? And I tell me what they actually
thought. But then I usually I find that the people who have told me that they don't like something, I did, I like obsess over them and the next thing I make I'm trying to please them. Uh-huh. Which is really I think is a good policy to be honest as much as I can. Yes, I think so. If they're still changes that can be made. Yeah, you can offer some thoughts just not useful, right? But once it's done you just that's why you go I had a blast.
Yeah yeah you got to say it when they can actually still make the change otherwise you're just like haunting them. Those villains. Yeah that I do think that once somebody tells you what they really think especially if they don't actually like something then if they ever do like something that's like It's suddenly valuable run into you. It's mostly valueless. When somebody says something nice right? Yeah now yes no. Sure. I mean--' also.
If somebody says if somebody says something like a compliment about something my impulses to say name, five other performances, they got a really get burn movies, right? Just so you can completely discount their their, their Judgment. Yes. Yes. If somebody ever does say something nice about me, it's it tends to be couched between two other people that they like, right? Like I might like it's not as I really like this.
It but like, oh if only that and then this other thing that I fucking hate doesn't to movies, I've loved in the last like, five years took that night. Yeah, it's just, it's probably best to not interact with your friends when they've seen, I'm going to be afraid. That's, that's my opinion. I had can. Tickets last night to invite people. Did you invite new? I know, buddy. Yeah. No, of course not. It's also like do you want to come and watch us pass feel so weird?
Ellen, Ellen, come see the movie. No, especially in that context, you know, it's not really going to see a movie. It's like, it's suddenly an obligation. There's no good version of this and then new, whatever the situation Thunder. Why them? Hey, I know. I know. Let them find you if they did. You do like this? Don't tell you about if you do go. See, I just don't tell me why, anybody, who knows? You knows not to say anything nice. We'll just anything.
I started really don't want to get into the discussion. You tend to have like a window where like you can take something in and then like the door, the door slams, you can see it in the eyes. It's, there's like that you get like sick suddenly. Yeah. I don't know what, I don't know. What what good comes of it. Well, it's something that you want, right? But then, once you get it, it's I don't know that it's something that Um, what I want, I want you to be happy.
I want to feel like we're, we feel like we're getting the stuff when we're working and then after that it's like you want it to be received well enough to where you can keep getting and you get another job right. But beyond that I mean nothing anybody can say, whatever little up to like what the experience is. So it's kind of like it's a strange talking about me and something they need this three hour. Film. It was like four months for us. Yeah. If we're you much longer of
course. And any conversation just feels like I don't know and if the laughter one thing that is a little bit, I wouldn't say different about you but something that's very specific about you is that you really do need it to be in it experience. Meaning you need to kind the
flag. It feels like you become like kind of chemically aligned with whatever you're doing and that That's, that's not always the case and so I can imagine that there's like almost no way to really detach The Experience on set for you from whatever you're seeing or rather that that they can kind of maybe exist. Totally separately. That's a completely different. Yeah. And it's almost no real value and and convening in some ways, right? But but you watched it, you wash
it a couple times. I did know, I did. I'd is it, huh? But I don't know what my the feelings are so complex when I'm watching his I'm a force remembering what was happening in those does days, right? You know, and the humbles nothing, you know, nothing is he can live up to that that the experience yeah that's like the first month in the edit from me especially on this one.
I was very depressed kind of Snappy for the first month as we were like assembling it. But then the post process is so long that I do get I'm not sure if it's like objectivity but But you know, but I separate from the experience of shooting the film, but it takes a while it takes. In this case, I think my bad mood lasted for like a month. But it took me a few months to fully separate from those memories because it was a very was a long.
I mean, it felt long it was it was like both not long enough and like just very arduous that shoot. Yeah. It was. Yeah. Did you know that going into? It was going to be that so difficult. Yeah. Only because I knew what the goal was. I knew that that I wanted to make something like, really kind of dense and big. And, and when we were putting the schedule together, that it dawned on me, that that every day was going to be like, pretty
rough. But that was the case on my first two films where we had far fewer days and and fewer resources, even though I feel like on all of them, we've had to like really stretch them. As far as we could. I mean, even you said in the beginning, like how are we ever going to do this in this amount of days?
Yeah, no I knew the need to schedule was tough and knew there was a lot to do. I didn't anticipate that it was going to be so I really didn't anticipate as myself physically and emotionally took and I can I don't think that I kind of numbering this scriptures are like I'm just gonna kind of walk around they have a phone call because like I really didn't didn't expect that. Then I think we're doing, we're doing one. See where I was are you sure
gets coverage trimmed, right? Go into Kris and Rogers ruined admitted to make a call at call the lawyer and I went in and now we realize that I didn't feel like I was injured. Remember that? Yeah, a psycho fuck was that one? The clipping started? Yes. Yeah and it would just like, oh, it's white. Alright, older, in East of their actors limping and Survey. I didn't do it in a knot then tick way and I said, fuck so supposed to have this wound like in my stomach right. Yeah.
It feels like more kind. Who is the prop guy? It was like just handled everything. The best proof guy who's so great. Yeah, I was like, do you have like, literally there's the there's the lose Clips got like bind. Papers together. And I'd got that I clipped on my stomach and I need it for the rest of the shoot, and then it
was there. But you also, you have a hand wound, and you also had like a, I think it was like a pin, like you put a pin against your palm for the rest of the film, and you wrapped it up. And I mean, it would, the hand was wrapped in bandage. Yeah, yeah. For now, well, because just about, you don't use the hand, right? Can like see their movies all the time, where somebody Injured. Men are like grabbing something and you got all, you couldn't
move your hand like that. There's just like a reminder. Yeah. I was like there's some reasons made this piece of session plastic with tax on it says, press on the palm. I completely forgot about that. Yeah, well then it's not ethic tation either. Then you're not worrying about how do I make it look? Like I was stabbed because you actually have like, you know, A Shard of something. Yeah, I mean towards the end, I time shooting the end again so accustomed to this.
This clip and it wasn't anything anymore. I just remember I was like more time. This just like it's not working anymore.
Like it's horrible and I was you know, all covered and Barks and black blue and he does I have something new and he gotten velcro just like that the hard part of the velcro, not the soft part include that to both sides of the clip as a fan with put it on its head that and I was like a motherfucker as of course Appreciative and I know I needed it but by the end, as I do not want to clip it back on and that was I mean that would have been
two weeks into shooting. I think that's when you started the star of doing that. And then we shot for 13 weeks and total. So so for 11 weeks, you had that so stupid. Now, but it really worked, it really worked. And there was a real, there's like a markets difference between What you were doing before that? And after said, yeah, this is already kind of blown up in my face for starting to talk about
this. But I don't think I was aware of how much you're putting your body through, like how exhausted you were, and how how rough the shoot was for you until what happened near the end of the shoot with Patti, where we were on, we're on her. I don't want to like, say what what the scene is. Because it's it. It's a spoiler but those are intense scene for both of you
but the coverage was on her. So it was it was a shot that was on her and you know, your hand is in frame and you were helping her through it by basically like she you come talking her through like holding her breath or the take but you were holding your breath. Just I mean just just in solidarity. I don't know. Just to like help and anyway your hand fell out of frame and I heard like a thunk. And I wasn't able to put it
together, it was very confusing. And then I came out because I was around the corner and you had people all around you and I did not understand what had happened until I realized that people were, like, bending down to like touch you and help you.
And you are letting them touch. You like, that was the bad sign was that you are you were allowing that kind of attention because you, you would never allow that kind of like doting, like you really Eating it. And you you looked worried like you didn't know where you were like you'd be really fainted and your first reaction was laughter correctly. It was nervous. That's the nervous laughter. I know I'm in love, I was in Terry.
No I got what what really made me uncomfortable is a who it was maybe around RAC chamber, who was it? The operator I just saw them walk by black. Mgs of the morphin camera and just sit down on the couch and just stare at the floor. And like, I realized that it's Hugh, there was, this looks reaction where he was just terrified, and he just like walked and sat down by that River. He's staring off. Like they didn't understand what happened. And of course, it was fun and it's all sounds.
So dramatic, man, wearing a big deal, we've been hyperventilating all day, do all this physical stuff like all day long. Just restricting airflow. Yeah, and yeah I mean the it's so funny but it felt traumatic it felt it. It kind of I think we were both
sort of in this. I mean the sounds so like I don't know, the sounds like bullshit but it kind of felt like we were in some sort of a trance for a lot of that felt like just kind of very very focused we in the same way and I think we were both, you know, kind of just fixed on doing it the right way, whatever that meant and so on.
In realize how much you had put yourself through until then, I guess, effectively how much I had put you through and well, that way I'd put you through it too and those those last, and with, but three weeks of nights, right? Like, the last fool is were nights. Every time we switched a world because the film is effectively, it's really six worlds, but I think five that you went through, because one of them is the cruise and then that's not
with you. But I feel like we spent about Two weeks about about 10 days in each environment. And then it was usually like in the last, like, two, three days that we started to get like into a Groove and kind of where it became comfortable. And then it was usually that like he's whatever like he's had set in and confidence that fucked us on the first day of every new environment, as like a guy with like without fail. The first day was a good
disaster faster. The Stay with red with Roger and Grace. Like I do. I think they were like, really worried about what said that they had my carotid. They shouldn't you. And I were both like totally lost. It looked like we didn't even know how to communicate because we because I think we didn't I think we like we had a way of communicating and in one place and then suddenly we're in a new
place, there's a new tone. And I think I think for the two of us the worst day with was Roger and Grace but for me like just individually, it was the first day in the forest that's where I I like that's where I hit this, like, really terrible wall and I couldn't like, thank I just felt like I was really drowning, I don't know what happened because, you know, there was a shot list. There's like a plan, we weren't
even. There was no need to like, actually deviate from it or like, figure out anything new. But I truly like, I just couldn't I just hit like a total wall and I that felt like a 10-hour panic attack that day. But that day, what would you first? The first the first day was just you walking with Hayley Squires and All right. And yeah. And then I know y'all. Did you just just first entering the right? The camp.
And it was so simple. It was really simple and I like I couldn't do it and people would come up to me saying, are you okay? And I just say I'm not okay, I, I can't breathe. I don't anyway that I still don't have like insight into what happened that night. Except for the fact that it was just, it was just another pivot that I wasn't like actually prepared for and then I mean, obviously the yeah, the whatever that final scene is there was a
Big change their store. And then I forget the first day at at Mona's, but yeah argue too but it's yeah, of course it all becomes a blur as it as it should. I mean, you know, you are, you're just like swimming in it. Yes. All-encompassing, right. I remember I was so appreciative because you working so hard, but I love to like work on weekends. I love to rehearse.
I don't like plan out and because we had these like two weeks We would get together on the weekends usually in the location and kind of like roughly go over it because we had such limited time or just really wanted to like understand
the space as much as possible. And still even with that things change, you know when you're shooting as soon as here always available and willing and wanting to do that because like I need to get my head around it. To I I needed that to that was like sort of a revelation for for me too. Learn, that's how you worked because I was expecting before we went into this for you to be less Technical. And that, what do you do looks to me? So often to be like, completely spontaneous and completely
unworked out. And so, I Was preparing before we shot the film to like, be ready to just have everything upended. And like, that was a really exciting thing to find that that that that you were so intentional. I don't know. I'm not not not to like break the magic of it, but for me to find that You're able to do things.
Like so many times over was was really like kind of shocking to me and I think there is a point at which it starts to dry up and at that point there is I think a need to okay we have to like break this now and start over but that that was a really that was kind of a is it was like a surprise to me but also I mean I've I feel like I'm now repeating something that I've already started. Saying a lot but it's true that whatever that process was whatever we landed on for me,
like just feels very much. Like, a way that I don't want to stop working again really felt useful. I hold these. I don't just walk in with like, and just everything is spontaneous, like, with no idea what I like to have like 15 possibilities. I just don't choose which one in advance of actually shooting and I think is like it go. You at all old. Maybe said we have to get in the space and then maybe it was this feeling, I don't know, right now, sitting in my apartment,
reading the script. I imagine this, this is the feeling that I have, but that feeling inevitably will change. So I can't, I can't go inside as well as me. I don't even know what the, you know up there. The set looks like yet and that, of course, changes everything. So it's like, yeah. I guess it's just like, you have like your thoughts and, like, your hopes for something. And then she just see what transpires and what feels good.
Like I make decisions I do this. I still do this on every movie. So embarrassing. I'm going to admit this to you. There are times where I'm going through the script and I got some II. I got it all fuck, I got it, and I'm like, I'm you my balls. I'm like, oh my God, I'm actually, I'm actually dead. This is going to be here. Going without fail, those ideas are always the worst, terrible feels like a movie and I just had like this brief moment of of confidence and feeling good about myself.
I think I belong here and then just immediately humbled and lost and during Ogawa, don't what am I? Because I thought I had a good idea and it's the worst idea. Yeah. And Usually what I what I've learned is out of that comes comes something out of that desperation out of that like brutal humiliation because that's what it feels like. When you're the center of me, the focus of 50 people and your do something all. It's just so humiliating. No.
I mean well the I do know that we that we kept every time we kind of hit the Whatever like you know, the new all-time low was the feeling was always like, yeah, we got cocky like oh shit, we really like, we thought we knew what we were doing here and it just like died on the vine and then but I but with you too, I remember that. I did a couple times that I betrayed the fact that I had a plan like that, I that I kind of was maybe Not subtle enough or that I really was just trying to
impose something. And I kind of would give you something close to blocking and that's where it was just like, you got upset, you got really mad and and it but in a way that was that that I'd end up finding like very bracing and exciting was like, okay yeah, we cannot go into this with like some set plan because even I think you you got especially angry one day because the blocking was right, and you knew you would have
gotten there. But now it felt like something that was a directive and you couldn't feel your way into it, and I totally under like understood that, it just shouldn't be prescribed like that and that became something very I think there were mornings where like we would hit a wall and you would hit a wall. And in the beginning I at first like that that was scary to me and I thought like oh fuck I've lost them like shit. It, he's not coming back like he hates me. You felt like that in the
beginning? I was shit. He hates me and then not not long into the shoot. I started to recognize a, oh, God, we're okay good. Like there's a problem here. Whatever that is we have to break through something, otherwise, we will stay here, and it will stay dead. And every time there was something of a breakthrough whether it works or not, I just remember that it like came to like new life and felt at least,
like Electric Yeah, not false. And for me, it broke away from what was in my head, which is really valuable. Because, even now, when I see the film, I'm able to, to enjoy a lot of it without feeling, like, picking it apart. Like, oh, why did I do that? Why did I do that? Because it kind of left my hands in a lot of ways, you know, it really, it just turned into something, not something else, but it kind of like deep and done set, and that doesn't
always happen. Yes. Well, I mean, sometimes, you know, I know there were so many this summer jobs were well known when that happens when they hit the wall that I move. Every just talk to myself during just just do it. Just do it. Just it's so easy to walk in. Do they say the thing? Hit the mark to it and I just I can't I you know, just can't do it. It's like no one. It's just when it's there. It just makes me feel like it's
just not that's a by numbers. Yeah, just put that thing and I II just have a hard time and I think there are other actors like. Yeah, that's what this. But I can imbue it with with all of this feeling and I'll make I don't know what they do but I don't I don't know how to I don't know how to do that. Like unless it really feels like that it has energy in a discovery. Something that's happening to me, not unlike some fucking
bullshit. And you know, it was not like some technique or and he I don't know what it is, right? Just You see there get like either you feel inspired and excited and feel like it's dangerous or it feels just like fucking boring and you're just making a movie, you know, you're like, well, I don't do that. I feel like people listening, like, could like, it could almost sound like difficult.
Like, what what, what? You're describing, like, you being difficult, but it was always actually, the feeling was you were like, kind of forcing a new engagement. I was challenged to like engage in a new way, with whatever the material was and That's really like something that's hard to do when you're like under the pressure of the clock you know to like stop and say wait a minute like let's stop working for a second which is actually where the, you know, real work
begins. You know like let's let's actually reconsider This and like this thing. We've known for a long time. Like this is what's going to happen in this scene like this is what has to happen in the scene which means that it's kind of died. You know? It's like it just it's just a fact right right. And so we're just Playing out a fact. How do you kind of? I mean, for me, the feeling was like, yeah, how do I get back to whatever that feeling was when I first wrote it, right?
But so how do we like kind of rewrite this thing? Even though it's really about, honoring, whatever it is. But yes, but the only way to honor it is to try to in some way if you can, like reset the way you are looking at it reinvigorate, whatever it is, you know? Yeah. And I think that it's, it's not just us. And I think for everybody on set, You don't know precisely what's going to happen.
We know what's gonna happen but there's the potential that somebody moves over here instead or at the mic and there's like this Focus From the entire crew, right? And we all are kind of putting all of our effort into this moment and that creates an energy that is really powerful and important like those in the things that I, that I think that's what I notice and in, like, it in this film and thing in movies too. I like is just like an energy
and a focus. So of what maybe when it's just, when everyone knows precisely what we're doing and we're just hitting marks. That's the same thing as do. Three takes you just human nature like eventually you start kind of people or just like looking at their phones or their, you know, and you see it be seeing you. You feel it when you're watching a film that was made in that Spirit. Like it's very, you know, it's like it's like playing dress up. It's a costume party.
Yeah, well, I On this one, I felt for a couple weeks that you like, didn't know, if you could trust me, and I even remember on the first day, you did something really surprising to me, it was like a scene where you're supposed to be like, you know, doing one thing and you just sort of did another thing. It was when you're supposed to be packing and then you just sort of sat next to the suitcase and I and it was just like, just really lonely and is that like felt like Bo, you know, and it's
like, oh my God, that's great. And so I I was very enthusiastic about it. And then you said, would you come over here and you pulled me to the side of the set and you leaned, any just got here. Just some fucking kid. That just like, so excited to have Joaquin Phoenix and your said what? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, like like a big act on your settings, like, I'm morally, I don't have time and I said, yes, but I was very excited. Follow.
You just did because because you were excited by this thing that happened. Yeah. And you asked like are always like anything I do are you just gonna like anything? You do is just going to be so great because it's like because you can't believe that you got Commodus on your said you're like yeah I'm not so excited that Johnny Cash is like in here. Yes I was I was just yeah worried that that dumb. Yeah like I want to be I want to be challenged as night.
I think like I was I was scared that he had that he just really like oh this is so exciting, I'm making this and I'd miss this meeting. I was like I'm not doing what if I don't I haven't and I just come from a place of such insecurity writer. I'm just asking like what am I doing? I don't know what I'm doing. I'm fucking terrible. And then you're like, I'm really excited by this. I'll think. Oh no. We're in fucking trouble ahead. Yeah, but I learned very, very quickly.
How how perceptive you you were and how How dedicated and hardworking you are and that was very exciting to me and it was really super early on which the Catholic immediately, it was intense, right? We had like, a couple days. Were kind of like walking down the hallway and stuff. Right. Wasn't like him and then it.
Yeah. Then they got like intense very quickly but I you know, I love the way the team are, you talked about things and that first, the first big team was called Caught, you know, on the phone, calling calling Mom. I had. And that was, yeah, I was I just wasn't there yet, right? Just like really work with me to get there in that scene. And I thought from from that moment on I like, I never have it, but I was like, I think I know where there was a great thing.
We're at the present, the conversation you said, oh, and then just say, we can fix this, we could fix this and her such a great line and it really just help me. I didn't know how the scene was supposed to end and that really helped me just saying that. Yeah, I remember that scene was half the day was the first half of the day with you. On the couch, the you would originally designed differently
the shot, right? You're standing and you were Kim was going to like dollars Jenny, Kim past me and like spin around or something that was when you were calling the landlord. And we did do that. It was still gonna be pretty still. I think there might have been like a creep involved like on the like in the cameras on the dolly it was creeping in or it might not have been in.
I have on honestly been just a very like a static close up with you standing but then he really felt like you wanted to sit for that. Yeah I was well I just assumed I was sitting like this isn't like things. Like I don't, I never even that like looking back on it, I guess it didn't say that in the script.
And for some reason, I read the script, I just what I see immediately that I just was like, I'm sitting on this couch and because I thought that he just Like, I still like his the just becomes deflated as he's in this conversation. Literally, give us later. I feel like it was tightening. It was like getting Tighter and Tighter physically. Yes, it just had, but by the end you're just like out. But yes, it is. It's like a pound shrinking shrinking. Yeah, which I was like it is it
wouldn't even make sense. Then you have our area? I don't know. I don't know why. And then I really I love that shot that you came up with really push errands. Under mean, as I said remember I was like I think that I just keep kind of just a talking. I'm just going leaning or we had a meeting forward and your life of just move push the camera. Come underneath you. What? Yeah that that felt like very that was very quick when I saw you doing that with your body.
It felt like, yeah, we have to come. We just stay with you. Somehow we have to kind of keep kind of, you know, keep invading your space until we're like in your nose. I actually, when we Herded, the film to IMAX like that was when I got excited about the format, was in that shot because it's just like it's so I mean just like Ian you and on that screen and feels like really perverse to just be that close to this no works out. Really well that that love seeing was that with them.
They like bad, shame job. Then I do and it's like those are sometimes like details that never really show up in a movie, you know, that are just kind of settled. But you just What do because, you know, it helps you write was, but then I actually like, when I'm in the therapists office and the beginning, there were just like these hairs on her own by neck, but just like our Miss Channing. And I on Ox, I really saw it and I just love that detail so much.
I thought it said so much about him and and it really really worked. We we captured it Colin, Colin Penman. Right? The makeup. A whose use amazing and there is a lot there to track because there's so much damage that you go through over the course of the film like it in. Yeah. We had to make a lot of like very strict decisions early on but after you get hit by the car what you know after you go through the glass after you. Yeah. Like what are the areas, very
good and collaborative. I mean, it's it's Joy when you work with people that very good at what they do and are coming up with things like Inventing things you saying, but we, but can it be this? And like I remember he was using, I was like looking at the cat. Sounds like, I think that it has to it has to like, darken, and scab as it goes on in that kind of like, scab what? Um, yeah. This if you like we're just putting on these he scrapes and the same thing.
And he ended up put on putting coffee grounds, like sticking them to the wound, and it looked like it. Like scabbing over and he kept coming up with this of like just old tricks that I can make up Artist as you know. And so we really have the opportunity to like utilize. Yeah, and I think he really enjoyed that, you know, really being in on these discussions layers such a joy to to get a group of people together and to create problems and then try to
solve them. As that's like I thought the most most fun that And when it's something this stupid, it's like there's a real language. Nate just like shit is get as much money as you can together and then just light it on fire, I'll be weird. Such an amazing crew and they were fucking awesome and it wasn't amazing, right? That's just a church Montreal. Yeah, it looks great play everyone. Incredible know, me too. Yeah, we're really, really lucky.
There was some nice, the art team was incredible. The camera, the camera crew. Really, like, I really had a hard time leaving the end. I really felt like that was, you know, the platitude of felt, you know, 50, like a family but it really did by the end. Yeah, I'm nervous. I'm his fucking weird shit that we were doing well, in the Attic. That's some weird shit. Oh, yeah, doing it's so wild and of the puppets. Not really in the movie anymore, we moved mostly to CG.
But yeah, with that giant puppet account for two. Days of Jeeves. Yeah shooting and stabbing this giant I can just you know Madness just a show just fucking Madness and it's so difficult, come in 7:00 in the morning, you go. So what is the day? What are we doing today? And how do we put ourselves in that place because we can't just like walk in and just shoot?
Like it's just a scene especially this because it is so stupid that like you know, the magic trick, if you Actually achieve it is, is to somehow like in Gross, somebody in this thing. That's, that's so, so exactly dumb. No, I mean, that's that bears thing is like, if you allow yourself the step back for a moment, you go. This is fucking ridiculous. I'm going home. I can't do this and you have to
do the opposite. If D completely commit to this, and I was young like this is not going to work. I'm going to laugh. I can't, I visit No way that I can with Nathan, he laughed a lot. Oh, fuck. You know, that a certain. There's no way you can get through a take and he's like, one of those guys, but, you know, he takes pride and kidding, you couldn't hear the laugh, but he was so good. Yeah, absolutely. And a need an English is a great face is stupid because I remember, we were me name.
It was sitting outside and between takes Of the paint scene. You know, I don't even know how to describe what it's like because they're sitting outside. There's not many places to go, right. There was just this like one area where we could sit and so we're together and in some ways you're doing this scene with somebody, and you don't want to look at them.
Like you don't want to be around them in between takes almost because it's just like just feels ridiculous and you just don't want to like get into small talk and But we just work together. We in our choice and there's like we're sitting in silence. I could look the other and she was just like red in the face and I was like, what we do is so and she said, stupid, it's just so stupid. There are like you're fucking right. The only way to describe it, as really ridiculous.
I supposed to ask you about like you Zurich and shit, tell me about sound design. Come on to town, doesn't. Yeah, tell me how what that process was like. I don't know. I mean, Paul shooed the sound design and he's great. He's really, he's so smart and so like her to sleep. Hey, I mean, is this just linking those boys in the world? Yeah, probably. Okay. Goodbye. Love you, man. Well, since you've talked about my little spell, I think it's only fair.
To reveal one of your most troubled moments was sad. Oh, I know you're going to, I know it water. It's the bedroom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll go ahead. I'm not Mom. Yeah. Yeah. Well no, that was it, there's it extremely difficult. I mean, we know is very really rough rough week and I cheat I've really struggled with that one there and beginning. And we were talking about bad first day as that. That was the first day now I'm remembering. Yeah, so it. No, it was another.
Yeah, it's another terrible Tuesday. Yeah, and, um, I remember, I could not just one of those things where you go. I know that I'm supposed to do this. I'm literally incapable of it. Like I'm literally incapable of, I don't know what, I don't know what to do. Yeah. And of course Looking back on it. It makes total sense that you wouldn't know what to do in that situation, right? Yeah. Like how do you, how do you have a plan? How do you function in that situation as the person they
took the real person? The character, and I remember though that it was, it was a real struggle and you, you just broke, you totally broke it. You just went to the fucking Edge and you just Apparently Jack and everybody left. The room is super uncomfortable and your emotional and I felt terrible that I might be somehow responsible for it, but I remember you saying I can't re conceive of this right now because I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough to just come
up with my mouth. I laugh like If your fucking mind, I couldn't believe that. That's how you felt because I had so much faith in you to be able to help us get out of whatever the problem was. And it caught up with something and I couldn't I just I could I was so I was so surprised that that was your feeling like I didn't anticipate that. I'm sorry. First align, those are about it.
I don't remember saying that but I'm sure I mean I Yeah we got it was like around take 20 actually I mean in in retrospect like we we actually were we were further along than it felt but that was just a day where I felt like the pressure of the whole production was like, you know, just too much on that day. It was really. I mean, we were deep into it, that was like, 50 days into shooting or something or 55 days into shooting. That was just, I mean, I had one
of those days. On Midsummer where I just got there the morning and people were like looking at mates and they walk and it was like time for me to, you know, like give directives and explain what we were about to shoot. And I had my plan, you know, I knew exactly what we were going to do is is actually pretty simple. It's basically like it was kind of a dance scene, so it was all choreographed. Like I did, there is nothing.
I had to like conceive of at the moment, but I was just facing the whole crew and they're all looking to me. Expectedly and I just had I just turned around and then like started crying and so like they're watching this like this guy's back like just kind of like rise and fall and it did he went like 30 minutes. I just think I couldn't get out of it but it's really, you know, it's it's not even emotional. It's like just it's like a nervous Yang.
It's like your nervous system is just like yeah, it just it take that you tap out and that that's what happened, that day with with you. Is that I just hit that same. Wall whereas just like the even if things were like going smoothly and we were it would have been working. I still feel like you know, anything could have set me off that day. I remember driving in and just feeling like I can't I can't I need like a day.
I need some sleep or something but but still even like but in retrospect I think of that wall that we kind of both hit because you hit the same wall like several takes earlier and so I was really just trying to support you And help you. And it just turned out that I, I couldn't support anybody that day, but then after that, I don't know. Like, then it turned into one of our best days.
It brought us back together. I think we were kind of, like, another sides of the room for the, you know, for that that first half of the day and then, yes, I did. I cried that. That's what you haven't said, isn't, I was crying. Yeah, I always find those moments since sound so callous, but like really invigorating. It's because I know that there's So much. Shilling in the room and it's awful at scary like that.
It's really one of those uncomfortable things when in ad is like I'm clear the room please. I like people just start shuffling out and get a light lunch early and we're sitting in that room in the feeling is we're never going to find our way out of this. But that's the best different way. Yeah, that you have right? Like we actually were in such a bind and everything on. People are looking at you did,
right? It's detected your that there is like a spotlight on you and there's a spotlight always on you. But there's but yeah. And I make it with like a thing Raptor. I'm here. It's like it's all like yeah. You've seriously. Yeah. Exhaust isn't just so absurd. Yeah. And you can't you can't just laugh about it and those moments or maybe sometimes you know, you can that's another way out. But this was like we don't have the time. We don't have the luxury of time.
We have to fucking figure. This out and now and the deeper you dig like when you're on take 20 and you and it's not. I mean, and and the schedule is kind of fucked because that you were supposed to do, like, seven scenes that day. That was the day. We had scheduled seven scenes. I remember that because it was. So it was a pretty simple, wasn't that? And it was more simple than
other scenes. That's actually what broke me down is that we were reached lunch and we we ask for grace and so just the realization that we needed to that the schedule That we not only be like like that should have been done like four hours ago, but we should be done with two other scenes, and we're in Grace, but we're not going to get this before. We have to actually, finally break for lunch and then we're
going to come back to the same. And that just that was what I couldn't get my head around, but it's always the clock, it's always, you know, it's not, that's what the pressure is. It's not like, you know, otherwise it's it would be fun if it weren't for the pressure of the money and the time. I'm yeah, but that pressure is also really good.
Ya know like, you know, as there's something I love about it. I love those moments where just feels like this could just end very bad or we can fucking figure something out and we gotta do it quick. I mean, it's it's so exciting. Yeah. Yeah. It's odd. Awful when you're in it. It's a terrible feeling. But sometimes it seems that seems simple at the one that actually you, because she, it just for you can't force it. And there's something else telling you that.
It's like a different feeling like you, you're chasing, you're chasing a feeling and that makes sense but it's just not there, it's not really working, it feels forced said or just feels Road, you know, like me because you thought it was a simple scene. You just didn't really think about it or you just kind of you know, but we did.
And we went in that day though but we started out to start out strong because we kind of made them some Changes to what happens after the intimate moment in the bed. Read. Write, and I was originally going to be one thing over on this side and then we're like are no way to maybe it should be the opposite of that. Right. So we yeah, we didn't just go in and just job over the weekend. Yeah.
It's don't call where. Yeah, we both we both kind of re re thought how that would play because we realized it was too similar to similar to something that had happened. Right before. Was that right? Yeah, I've met. And so then there was like some relief and like okay well actually we're not doing we're not repeating ourselves, she had this again that's good. And then we got the jury was like that.
I don't know why really one of the strangest that's difficult scenes for me. Yeah, it was very is it was really important. I think we'd worked out the one thing but then your Suddenly faced with right. It's the biggest pivot in the film. And I think somehow that was so obvious that we that cookie, I kind of just assumed it was pretty simple. And I mean, you know, there was a lot more dialogue of their we
like cut. We kind of chopped it all out immediately because I mean, he's just like what are we talking about? Like, when I, what is it like this? What words are gonna exactly like charged reflect was actually happening here? It was very is actually like, and the words were, like in retrospect, like, they're like, like way too coy and like, yeah, it's just a bit that's what's funny is that we figured that out early on to like, I don't know what.
Anyway, it was that was a really tricky day but those days are really good because they kind of reactivate this like, well it's really what it is is a fear of that happening again. Like, you just don't want to call, you just don't want to like get, you don't want to end up back in quicksand because it really Is the worst feeling? What else was there? Do you want to talk about other people? Do you want to talk about? Who's the, who's the cop? Well, where'd you find that actor?
Michael S /. He's a, he's a, he's like, a New York theater actor. He's great in case bucking amazing. Yeah, he's good. He's really good. I mean, I like, yeah, I always feel like people with like small parts at a couple lines and like extras. That's when you know like if a director is any good. And I'm like, always dread those moments and I remember the first take going, holy shit. This guy is like way more in it than I am.
It's like oh fuck. It was me really like yeah, inspired me. And remember we went and preached to say the same shoe or till you tell me what to talk about. No, but that was great. It's nice. And I'm glad my Glasper has that. That's because he would be as he was great. He's fucking mm. Yeah. He's fantastic. Yeah, because yeah, now he won. Awful. Well I remember when he first saw it. You mentioned Zoe lister-jones and Julianne Cinelli. I was Zoe lister-jones plays Jung Mo.
Now I think you were especially surprised by them because you weren't on set with them so I think that's what I think. That's what it was was there I hadn't seen them and then Julia plays young Elaine and yeah I mean the boss. Oh great. I thought they knew did some trick where you like used Patti lupone's voice that you blended it with Joey's Voice or Thing. I don't know why if they just I thought she was incredible. I'm really not.
It's an amazing performance. Everybody in, you know, our man in. Yeah. Armand is so great. I mean, I don't know how he found Armand, but it looks so much like you and Parenthood while we're on people. Patti. LuPone is like so much fun. She like knew that script like to, well, like she knew, it's so well. There's never a moment where she bumped on us on anything. She was just so. So game.
There was a real I can't I can't imagine two actors that are like more different that like that approach the work more differently than you and her but I do feel that there was like an Alchemy, they're just in one philosophy or one like really just like want to just like one approach to the work versus the other, but they were both like totally committed in their own way. And it's like weird. Anyway, I really love that. And then Parker that might be my favorite scene in the film isn't.
As you guys on the porch, that's really like, really Ghostly. And yeah, and you're so vulnerable on that saying, like it's such a Soulful thing that you're doing there and she's like, just I don't know. They I'm really like I love that scene. I'm really and I feel like that definitely got away from me with the two of you like that's just such a beautiful. If the area is wings, Credible. Yeah, she is incredible, incredible odds. Yeah, I mean, and and all then just so ballsy.
What I mean, once you got into the bedroom, I am so grateful to her for ya off and doing that. Oh, man, at this point, are we? Oh God, Stephen McKinley Henderson. He came in really understanding the part because it's a weird one, it's really weird. And there's like a pivot at the end. That is, that makes me laugh a lot and It was so clear that he understood that he's funny, he's really funny. And I don't know. He, he's really special. I really want to work with him
again. He had two things, we can't talk about and I like things that we just can't that just are spoilers but got anything at, what else? Anything else do we, I mean, there's so many things that's for, it's why it's always difficult. Do I know for us? There's the bathtub, the bats have thing only because it felt like that felt V momentous as far as our Dynamic was concerned. If that's is that? No, I mean, let's go.
No, I was thrilled because I knew that I'd get there was nothing, there was nothing special or unique about the first, the first time shooting it, and it was like, fine and in every in most movies you'd like, it's fine, but it just felt like it just been wasn't something. I are talking to his hand. I don't think. It's special. Yeah, and we were as per usual pressed for time and and they felt like all this is such an important moment. We have two at the scene where you broke down crying.
Basically, it's a scene where you can, you write can see you say fine. But yeah, you know, any other film? It's in this film. It's a whenever a fucking, like, quote, unquote Powerhouse moment, but it, but it felt it did feel like wrote it felt like really obvious. And we are also going to I think we also recognize that we're going to go back there later. Right. And if we did it here that we have to do something else there but that may be the more appropriate in there her. Exactly.
Yeah, and that was her from but there were you know, for me I'll start there was it you know there is a technical aspect of it where the camera was and how it moves throughout the scene. And so like it's a moment that you want to just be as an actor, just just for you to reveal itself. However it does when it does but couldn't quite Couldn't I do that? And you will live a lie. Am I remembering that, right? What's that?
The camera starts on me, right? Well, in this, he certainly on your phone and I seriously bring into your ear and then we kind of think the camera kind of rotates around. So it starts on the phone, you bring it up to your ear. So then we pan to become like a profile of your face with the phone up to your ear and and then once we land on that we're drifting to the right to then be in like a A medium close up on you. Yeah, but all, but then, it then goes up. Yes.
You have to send it up the right Jeff. And it was all and I didn't anticipate that, that was going to be one shot. Right? Right. Yeah. So, we went back to reshoot it nessie's. You came in my chair. You told me in the early in the morning, it's like got me spinning and panic. Yeah, I thought you were really upset with me. Yeah, sure. Have it now that it's like, off, we have to use. I have to do, right?
I remember this is Really, I was I was wondering whether a little reluctant to to say this but because it sounds so fucking stupid and just like actor, shit. But I remember seeing to happen and I was thinking in what I did before was I did a scene but it wasn't really I wasn't really Volatile of didn't really put myself out. There was still nervous, it was still in some way.
I was controlling a little bit of controlling what people thought about me. I was I didn't want to let people down and it was like new crew were early at that and I remember I'm just realizing like I had to do something that was fucking stupid and I would just show didn't want to do it. I just did I just knew and I just started screaming Screaming like the most intense dental pain, scream than I could
before. We're shooting right through there because I had to just fully humiliate myself and then just go like okay well once that's happened you can't look any more stupid than Chang you do now and it just like let go of everything right? Just I don't know what I don't know why Ryback just be a just was overcome with What this need to do that and I think it probably made you uncomfortable. Are you wearing the same wherever you want the monitor?
I had a feeling that you got very uncomfortable. Did you hear it? I think. I know I remember knowing what you're doing. It felt to me like, you were kind of trying to scream yourself out of like a last, the state you're in and didn't actually feel like even like a take, it somehow felt like you were trying to break out of something that matter where my awareness. Of yeah, big movie and crew. Yeah, exactly. Like having to do a thing and it was shocking in a way that was exciting.
I think because it did like jar everybody and I had and I felt like it was good because the energy in the room did suddenly become both alert and Disturbed and which was right, which is right for this is. Yeah. And that's I think that's what we were trying to get at is like swing that is in a disturbed State and not moment and it's not there's not one emotion that there. I bet they're having a as manifesting. It is something very hard to pinpoint in some ways what the
person is feeling precisely. Right signals horrible moments where you just don't quite know what to do and and again yeah I think we kind of went into it. Going like this is what we'll do so I would do that and then I have such appreciation for you because out of that you you recognize that there was something that there was a genuine State now that was like available and you didn't want to control it, but you also knew that that it couldn't reveal itself at the top of the scene.
And it had to had to hold and everyone listening, you should please accident Artisan at the Monitor. And he said, I just want to be very precise about this and then he told me like that you thought that I shouldn't let it out that it shouldn't reveal itself. Look, when you find me. I should be. Where was it? The a dress like that? It's the, yeah, I think it was where you started is where you should end like where you started and that take right before the expression, right?
Like that's that's the yeah. That's where you're getting to. Yes that was so good and I didn't at that moment I could I just it's like as if generate something that I've no idea what the fuck it is but I don't know what to do. I don't know what you do with it. Just because it was there and it was so helpful. It's the biggest thing. This Lapointe, very I say, I have no idea. What's good, what's happening? What will work in? Just fucking open for the best.
What? I keep the victory for actually, this movie. It's really, it's amazing. They're realizing, no, I really it's worth it. Yeah, it I mean I don't Kelowna shit because I always want more days but it's impossible but it's incredible. They they just moved being were so supporter for real. Thanks for listening. The 824 podcast is produced by us a 24 special. Thanks to our editor Tom Wyatt and robot repair who composed our theme