Hey and welcome back to the a 24 Hour podcast. Our Guest today. Met working on HBO's, I mean winning hit series succession while a 24-hour has nothing to do with succession, aside from being massive fans. We do know and love composer. Nicholas brutal an actor. Nicolas Braun brutal compose, the oscar-nominated score for moonlight and bronze stars in our upcoming film Zola.
We recently set them up on Zoom, where they caught up and talked about getting out of their own heads, finding a creative Rhythm, and of course succession. So, I guess we'll just start. My name is Nicholas Braun and I'm Nicholas Patel. And we are here with the a24 podcast via Zoom during pandemic. I can't believe this is actually happening. We've they've been, you know, the technical setup has been extraordinary to make this possible.
We've you know, this is some Hi-Fi kind of apparatus that we've put together for this and yeah, it's rounded by what tires literally surrounded by wires because like telephone wires and eats Nets. And there's like so much. I like what you did before, where you open the door. Yeah, it was feeling a little choppy. Know the Wi-Fi airflow. Yep. And I think it just wanted to get in here and I want to let it in and it and and you did and and now the Wi-Fi is flourishing
it feels flourishing. Where are you? Just so because so everyone knows but actually where I don't
know where you are. I'm in New York, I live in Lower East Side. So I'm at my place I was staying in La for most of quarantine I was at a couple different friends, houses and living in guest bedrooms and back houses and But it feels good to finally be back in my bed in my home and you're I missed the worst of it here, it feels like but in the last three weeks since I got back, New York is kind of like re burgeoning and you know, there you have this to do,
starting to get a pulse again, and for sure. Know people are sitting somewhat near each other at a rest, you know, outdoor restaurants and stuff. And I feel good to be a New Yorker in a way, still in like get some of this crazy, you know, time. Absolutely. I mean, actually, it's only because I'm sort of the Like the mirror image of that because we were Caitlin and I were in Manhattan for the whole period from basically early March until a week ago.
And you know, I I you know me, I mean, I love being in my, I like being inside, I'm really like a very indoors creature. I like sudden I don't go outside almost ever but this whole period of time has made me appreciate the outdoors in Like in a whole new dimension, you know, and basically because we
were so inside. I mean I would say I probably went out of the building like five times over the four months, you know, I was really inside that much and so we rented a place on Long Island just to kind of like get some air and you know, walk around some trees, Etc. So so I'm out on Long Island right now. Yeah. How does it feel to be away from the city and be in not in your main? Dwelling. And like you because you said you built a home studio there, so yeah.
Yeah. Process different is it? Yeah, it's interesting because like I've I've gotten used to over the past like you know ten years over the past ten years, I've been sort of making the the regular pilgrimage out to Los Angeles. You know. And we've talked about it a bit like I love you know whenever I'm working with people, I love working in really close proximity. Like really you know I feel it's so important to work with collaborations like in the same room and too. They're together.
So I've gotten you still like moving equipment, you know, I always carry like this huge backpack and gear and stuff all the time. But but, you know, being sort of during this period of time, it's so hard to kind of just logistically, do a lot of stuff. So I basically had to, like, set up this whole studio drive, all the equipment out and it took it took a little while. I'm not going to last a little while to get everything together, but I'm pretty set up now. Like I have a big big Screen.
Because I always feel like whenever you're working on a film or TV, I always feel like you actually need a big screen to work with. I've found over the years that's a whole other conversation but I found all the years that like when you work with a smaller screen you actually like do different stuff in a bizarre sort of psychological way which is sort of like you're not you're not surrounded by the image in the same way as like a bigger screen. Exact does it's not like as impactful?
Yeah, exactly. Like I remember years ago, I would work like I have like a lot of different monitors. I use when I'm writing stuff and usually, I have sort of a main like a 32 inch screen, computer screen in front of me. And then I used to just have like a 20-something inch screen to my right. And I used to put the picture
over there, you know? So I'd have like, kind of my session in front of me and then I'd have the movie on the right and there was something about it where I was like, I don't know, I just had an inkling that that wasn't optimal and I remember getting a much bigger screen Green like a 50 inch screen and putting it up in front of me, like, above the other screen and immediately, I felt like a new door opened up.
It's like exactly like you said, it's like you need an immersion in whatever you're doing in. Whatever. Does that for you? You need to do that. Basically and yeah, like it shouldn't be in your peripheral vision sort of Glee exactly. Like it should be the thing that's like. Yeah, exactly. And I bet the met, I think the metaphor works for like,
everything. Like, that's just, I mean, That may be very specific to, like, what writing music for film, but, but I feel like I wonder for you, like, I mean, thinking about ways of immersing in a performance, for example, you know, the I mean, there's always different like, you know, techniques or thought like do you. I'm actually just curious like a for performing.
Like, do you think about that to do you think about like before you're going to do a scene, for example are the things that you do to kind of immerse yourself psychologically or yeah. Yeah. I think I grow these little compulsive things for each role almost like, you know, like Nadal has like ticks he does before every serve like, oh yeah, right. Right. You just sort of, yeah, you know, like he's touching his forearms and sweat and pulling his hair and stuff.
I feel like I grow these things for the individual role that I'm, like, I grow my nails out or that I have dirt under my nails or that I don't sleep as much, or that I eat more. Eat less, or I said, they're in character. Like, like, are you Because you think like oh the character would have liked the dirt under the nails, for example, kind of thing or or is it more random? It's more kind of just like a, like a noise, it's definitely character.
It's not my character based. It's like, it's, you know, I don't there's no perfect way to create like an energy or a frequency for your character, but I'm like if I don't shower or if I, you know, don't talk to people the day before or if I'm super social, whatever the character is or whatever. I think the frequency that I should be on, for the next day is sure, sure. Sure, I try to kind of cultivate that and you know you can't like stop life from happening in
certain things from happening. Or you can't like not talk to your family for three months because your character doesn't talk to their family, you know. Like I don't go that far with it, but right. But I do try to find things that, you know, it's like I would prefer to grow my hair out for something that requires it as opposed to wear a wig, you know, grow them for the real facial hair or right.
You know, make my make my body, really feel like the way that that character's body feels like because you kind of can't. Like the voice of somebody is not altered by just like changing it to seconds before. It's like you have to sort of live in the body and live in the clothes in the posture and all those things. Kind of contribute to the thing that shows up on screen that, you know, or is just the energy, you bring into a scene with somebody like an actor is going
to feel feel me differently. It's fun because you kind of get to rewire yourself for a short period of time and just be this that's the first thing, you know and my characters. Smoke cigs, all of a sudden, I'm smoking some cigs like right right. You know, and I'm like doing this thing and and it helps my voice because it dries my voice out or more, you know, we're makes me feel a little bit sick. Oh, I got a sinus infection from smoking cigarettes. Well, my character, maybe, I don't know.
It's like changes you. It changes you basically. Yeah. It changes you. Yeah. So I, it's not, there's not a huge method to it. Like I don't, I wouldn't call myself like method actor. Any of that? I just like, I like the idea of trying Figure out what is the way that this person feels all the time and can I get as close to that as possible while also not like you know being an impossible person in my life to be around for writing.
So it's like a balancing act where you're right exact like for I'm sure for Windows of time. That can be really fun, you know? It's like almost like a little bit of an escape from yourself in a sense and then other times and then you're sort of like also, you have to live your life though. It's exactly that It's a little fun, escape and, and doing the research is fun to like, I don't know why, this just popped into my head but I went I went to a I was going to play a juggalo
character. Do you know what a juggalo is a juggalo. You have you heard of Juggalos before? And every tell me more Juggalo is a fan of this rap group called Insane. Clown Posse? Oh, okay.
Yeah. Pika. You know, they paint their face with us with clown makeup and stuff and Mike You're on the page, was, was hey, hung with a lot of Juggalos. So I thought, well, maybe they're a juggalo and I should investigate this, so I properly represent the Juggalo culture to be punished to be more closer to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To be closer to like what, you know, what are those people like? And what do they feel like? And you know, what is the actual Juggalo hairstyle?
And what, you know, what's their Vibe and and wardrobe and stuff? And I got the part the movie An end up happening, okay, by the way but I got the part and then a week later was the Gathering of the Juggalos which is a yearly Music Festival, where all these sort of Insane Clown Posse Branch off groups like inspired
by ICP underperform. Anyway it's a it's a kind of crazy event and people camp there for a week and so I I could get there on the last night of the festival and I flew to Oklahoma City and there's and I brought a tent and I Added to just like being character and I got a grill for my mouth and I did my hair kind of weird and I like credible first thing I did when I got there as I like I bought an ICP t-shirt, you know, they're just like I'm doing John, I'm doing this.
I'm doing it. And my brother, my little brother flew out from San Francisco. I flew from La. We both like met up in Oklahoma City and camped out at the Gathering of the Juggalos for a night and that kind of stuff is so fun tonight. Yeah, like to be able to do that. Have an excuse, like, have an existence. This is for Work. You know.
Right really right? It's also just a Fascination and to get to be around a group of people that I'm normally really not exposed to and like being a mosh pit and like the big finale of their Festival is Insane Clown Posse, which is a Duo this rap Duo. Yeah. They bring out cases and cases of two liter Faygo which is this, their soda brand that they created and they pour it all over everybody like a baptism. Oh my God, the end of the
festival. And as People who did this and you got poured on, you got poured on, oh, fully fully doused in root beer and orange soda. I always sort of talk about how like every project is different fascinating assignment where it's like, oh, you know, we need to explore this whole world and then you get to say to yourself. Okay, well, what, what do we do with that? Well, you know what, like from my perspective like okay, what music works with this because there's always the sort of first
layer like the first idea. You see something and then you can think, okay? Well, this is the direct answer to that or this is the reflection of that but often I feel it's not the first or it's almost never the first thing. That's right for something, it's usually some sort of the second idea or the third idea. And actually, it's funny like have you ever talked to McKay about this?
Because he would, he would talk about how he put this really well a few years ago, to me, where he studied with Del close in Chicago for improper. Yeah. Right. And He I remember him telling me I'm pretty sure. I don't wanna get the mistake this but he was saying basically, how Dell would always talk about how it was. Like the third idea was the one that you like when you're doing improv that your first idea is
sort of like not the right idea. Then your second idea is sort of kind of it's maybe better but it's a still related to the first idea. So it's not it's not the idea but the third idea that that's the idea that's the one you go with because it's just It's like you've learned from the first two ideas, but the third one is like the knuth, the new thing. And then I think he was telling me that like the fourth ideas
like, to too far. That's like that's like you're in your own head and everything, and he was saying, which I found fascinating, the idea that that really amazing improv is about so quickly getting to the third idea. So it's like, in your head. You get to the 30-day almost like, right now like you, you cycle through the idea. So quickly and then you're already at the third idea. So it seems like you're immediately having this response, but it's a trained kind of like going through ideas
very quickly. And and I think about that after he said, it's a mean, I think about that. Like, almost all the time now, it's just gonna be in my head every time, you know, it's like with the third idea, But I think that that makes a lot of sense. You know, the first one is basic essentially and then the second one is you're trying to beat the basic. Yep. And so that. Yep, third is an original idea in the context of what you're doing. Exactly. It's exactly.
It's like the it's like the new, the new discovery, still connected, but halves has evolved. Yeah. Yeah. Well that's that's really cool. So so when you're when you're coming up with stuff like lets you know, let's talk about that, you'll get it. First instinct towards something. You do you do say like don't trust that or sometimes is that right? And you're like, it's actually pretty close. I just needed to tweak a thing or reoriented or something
because so much about music. I feel like is Instinct and it's just it just comes out so expressive and it's what your ear hears, right? Like you hear Melodies and you hear instrumentation and you hear, you feel it innately. So then, You have to put on the academic brain sometimes and be like that is good. But there is a deeper better version. That's a great question. I think that I think it's all related to this stuff where part
of it is hopefully over time. You know, we're learning and we're maybe we're honing our instincts so that you know, more maybe more quickly. You start having a learned since of, I know I could do that but I'm not going to do that, you know. Maybe. Because you're like I I know that'll work, but maybe that's not interesting, you know? Or maybe I've already done that
I don't want. That, you know, but I also think the, the crazy thing I think about film music is and fulfillment TV music as a sort of entirety, is that like, you can write all sorts of music, you know, you can come up with ideas away from the picture because in a bizarre way, I guess I'm saying is like, writing music for a picture is both writing music and working being a filmmaker, you know.
So the music on its own Could be really interesting, you know, you know, there could be something really cool to you. Like, we're like the I'm proud of this. I think it's beautiful and then when you put it up against the picture, it's totally wrong. And so there's this kind of like dual layer where you're writing music and you're also testing it out. Kind of is the way I would put it where you doing. I always talk about it as like you're doing experiments where you actually it is.
Maybe almost like a scientist. We have like a theory, you have your best theories But ultimately Until you do the experiment which is putting it against the movie or the screen, you have no idea. And sometimes you're like, wow, this really works. And then other times you're like, wow, that is so wrong. But now that I see that it's wrong, it's telling me something about what could be right? Yeah. How do you know, I guess how much experimenting is there? Is there always a phase of?
Okay, here's my first instinct without picture and This is what my gut tells me based on the script based on this director and what they've told me like this is the sort of thing I think is the foundation. And then is there always that face before you see frames of a movie? I think I always think yeah. Like even even if I just hear about a project, I think I just love playing around with this stuff, you know. So like, even even if I'm not working on a project or a here about a project.
I think I naturally start going. I wonder would work with, you know. And, and so I think like, like, for example, in succession I You know, I first heard about it I think I mean it might have been even while we were still doing the big short. I remember, you know, I came to set Jeremy and Brian are having that uniting room want to hit me. Yeah, exactly yes.
Yes. Yeah, but that was that went that was sort of like for me. That was incredible because I got to let you know like you're talking about me immerse it you know and and and you know just feeling the feeling the tension in the room with that happening. It, although it's, it is intangible and it's all. But I really believe that all this stuff affects you. Subconsciously in a lot of ways and almost like a almost, like, a mystical way.
Like, if you, if you're around this stuff and you feel it, it's going to affect you and you're going to bring that into your work somehow, you know? Yeah. I mean, it's been interesting and great having you at table reads. I love to go. That's, that's been so much fun for me. I think you started in second season, right? Like you were there at the I came it was second season, I think, or did I might have come to one in the first season but definitely second season for sure.
Yeah, and I went to the writers room to actually, I went to the writers room when they were writing season 2 as well. In London, actually. I mean, I think it makes a lot of sense. Like you're trying to sort of get what is, what are the rhythms and what are the colors of the season? And how is it changing? And exactly. Exactly. Yeah. And actually, how did you? I'm just curious like, how did Did you first like when did you first learn about succession? Like, what was that process?
How did you hear about it? It was sent to me, kind of, like most auditions. Get sent to you. You get, you know, the script and you get some of the, some of the sides. I got a few Greg scenes and, you know, it said, I'm going to meet Adam McKay and and I'd never never met Adam, but I like long revered, him and fast. Yeah, you know. So I was like, this is crazy.
This is great. I need a demo Totally and and I kind of understood Greg. I think I don't know if I understood where he fit actually. I think I understood like he is an oddball in this world. You know, his energy is different. The, The Stumbling nature of him and awkwardness and the sort of forced forced ambition of it. All is like, very clear to me. I was like, okay, I'm just going to give give it a shot and Adam like my read and he did a bunch of like improv sort of things
with me in the room there. These sort of open-ended scenarios that he gave Greg. What we're like, What were the? I'm curious? What sir do you remember though
or I do? Yeah. So there's the scene in the pilot where Greg is in this training room and he's really high, you know, he smokes a little young, but yeah, and then and then he's sitting in the room and he's in like 80% of his dog costume and the, the Asian person is giving the kind of corporate seminar in like all the guidelines and he just, he was like, let's just keep the scene going. What if there's a gunman on, you know, at the amusement park, what would you do in that
scenario, right? And as Greg just I just started answering these questions and and you know, he gave me like 10 scenarios and it just sort of. I mean, for me it was great to like like I was saying earlier, like it's great to get into the pathology of somebody total with. If so how do you, how does your mind riot in this character? Answer a question, right? Not the way I'm going to answer it. So I have to redirect and go. Oh, yeah, Greg. So Greg Briggs fearful.
He's he wants to say the right thing, but he has no understanding of corporate like culture. So Frisk him, should I say I could first, you know, or escort. Mmm, get on the ground. You know, I mean, I don't know what I actually said, but I think yeah, yeah, it was They find it understand. Okay, how, where is he? And at that point in the show, he's like, so squirrelly and weird, and right, right. And we're, and you were supposed to do. What am I in that scene to write?
Like, you're supposed I'm hoti Hai. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah. So he's yeah. He's all of the above. I can't even really understand the questions that. Well. Exactly. You know just wants to get out there and put the costume on and just get through the day just get through. Yeah. Deep. You know, one thing actually it's funny when you, when you said Ed, you know, Frisk or escort. Yeah, I feel that Greg has such a fascinating kind of affinity for Words.
Actually, you know, and language like that really comes out in the Congressional hearings in season two, you know, where you're sort of inhabiting that that that Universe of like the the like almost like Court procedure words, you know, where you're sort of like, if it is to be said, you know? So so it So it is so it seems. So I is that how much of that is like you like us? Because it sounds like you you now fully know how to inhabit Greg.
And is that was that in the was a lot of that in the writing like had. They thought that Greg would talk this way or is that something to that you've sort of like brought into things? You know I'm cute. I'm pretty sure it was in the writing.
Wow, that's awesome. Pretty sure it's there because in the pilot I remember there's this scene Did stay in the pilot where I'm sitting with Brian in between Bryan and he I'm in the car and I'm saying, you know, if there's if there's a way for me to scratch your back and write your out when you scratch mine or not might you know yeah something and I used the word
perspicacious and they sang. Yeah that's the word I use and so I'm like you know it's tells you a lot about the way Jesse sees Greg totally is that he is scrambling in his thoughts and appears maybe Dawn. But has this vocabulary weirdly right, right? Or MIT? Or maybe he just like, thinks around Rich, smart people. He's supposed to use the big words, he knows, but he's trying to. It's like it's the code.
He's trying to fit in as if like, and the irony being that the last thing in the world, that that Logan is whatever uses a word like that, you know, he's like, like when they're quoting, you know, Shakespeare to him. He's just like, you know, fuck off, total. Keep it as simple as possible. It'll just say what you want. Exactly like, why are we here? Yeah, but it's interesting too because it feels like you.
I mean, you know obviously I've been I've been working on succession but I'm a fan of all of your work and and I feel like the you know all the characters, all the actors are inhabiting in such a deep way and it you know, so like you were saying before when you're talking about preparation and immersion, do you find yourself even are there. Certain obviously Greg has a sort of physicality. In his way to, like do you now, sort of naturally? Kind of, like, if I were to say to you, you know?
Like, okay, you're you're Greg the egg right now, you know, do you know, do you naturally sort of does your body feel that really? I'm just curious like how, you know, or would it take you time? Like you're saying does is it sort of like, give me two hours and I'll be Greg kind of a thing, you know. I think that's it, would be in the wardrobe and putting on a Greg style suit or outfit. Okay. And then it would be, yeah, the
posture kind of changes. And I think the voice changes a little bit and then there's just an energy that kind of takes up. That's all like a little bit more hyper aware of the room key players in it. Right? That's a good point actually. It's very Greg's, very sensitive to the room. Right?
But also like one of the things I love about Greg to is sensitive to the room but also like oddly self-centered as well, you know like the way like I still remember that moment where you say like it's Gregory You know, like, in the midst of this, you know, like lion's den you're still like, well, actually, please call me Gregory. Yeah. Demanding something exactly for his identity of a person, for some respect for symmetry.
Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, I know, I think that, I think that's totally the balance. He's like, I got to do the right thing. Got to do the right thing, but I also got a really do what I want to do right now. Ryan, go for what I want. Exactly, which is remarkable because it's such a, you know, in that, Environment.
There's there's also the fact that Greg does have these Ambitions, you know, and is actually incredibly ambitious, you know, willing to walk in the, you know, in the bathroom and be like, I'm I'm out of here. I'm out of here. Logan? Yeah, he's, yeah, he's trying to negotiate. Yeah. With him, like even at his. Yeah, his big night exactly. I love that part of him.
I mean, I think that for me, is one of the most exciting Parts about Greg is that All the things that were the sort of ambition that I myself sort of put a dampener on and I'm like, no, don't don't go up to that person and say that right now don't you know, you're just you read the rich like read the room. I read the room Gregory's it and he's like everything is available. Where do I want to go the most right now?
And so, yeah, there's just that kind of freedom of like instinct and excitement, and saying, thoughts that are inside your head that most people don't say out loud. Yeah. And and I love that. I mean, that's a fun day to get to have. It is awesome that it's awesome watching you and and and and also I think, you know, I'm curious to like it seems to me like the whole cast, you know, you all I have gotten to know each other so, well, do you feel, you know, similarly, to
Preparing yourself. Do you, how much time do you all spend together? Because from what I can tell, you know, it feels like this real family to me, you know, and the way that you all interact, it feels like you have almost like a second nature where you just know like you you respond to each other. So naturally in those roles. Yeah. I I don't know how but I think it just got built really quickly.
You know, I think Adam probably set us up perfectly and just sort of throwing us into these rooms and saying, you know, say whatever you want to each other here and you try something Nick, you try, you start the conversation at the table and everybody basically gets permission in that way to embody your character, see what happens like will use it. Maybe we won't maybe it helps, maybe it doesn't.
But but when you're put into that kind of initiation with a group of people and, you know, in the pilot phase, it's all the Three. You're you know, you're all buying into something that isn't a sure thing. Yeah. And it's it's it's like well let's just go for this. All right. Let's see. I mean that felt good that felt funny. What is this show? Like is this a drama? Is it a comedy? Am I you know, right am I doing this right? I mean everybody's just wondering.
So I think Adam kind of neutralize that in a good way which was just sort of like try it all. Yeah, well, that's right. Just try it. I love that so much. I mean I think Adam You know, and and I would say every every good religion o collaborative
relationship. I feel in some sense in some in the kernel of it is like that we're basically I mean Barry Jenkins. I mean it's it is so do that type of thing where there's just an openness and a trust to things and and Adam and Jesse, you know, are the same way for me to where it's like there's no wrong answers. If anything, they would be upset if you didn't present something, that was your idea. You know?
That's the only thing that would be Bad as if you don't share an idea that you're having, because no one like, Adam always says stuff to me, like, you know, he'll always say the movie is going to win in the end. It's not about any one of us. It's about the project. If it's a good idea, it'll make the whole project better. So let's all share ideas.
Yeah, I think, I think you on succession, you show an idea and usually helps Jesse understand his seen better or the direct, you know, Mark usually but, but they'll sort of be like, oh yeah, no wait. That's good. Stick with that and then do this on top of it. Yeah, so I want. So in terms of like other projects like what is? I don't know, has there been a crazy process that happened. That was like not your your ideal way and it turned out, okay?
Or like, what are some sort of like, odd circumstances? May be that you've created music or things you thought. They're certainly wouldn't work did like, there's a good? Yeah, I think I spent a lot of time during and after college A lot of short films you know because I feel short films are like in a lot of ways. I think people don't appreciate
enough. How crucial short films are to fit the film industry and that short films are like a really tangible way that that filmmakers learn how to how to make movies, you know? I mean, I certainly learned a lot about how to score things just by, you know, working with friends who were making shorts and every single one, just trying different things and experimenting and really, really leaning into it that way. Way. I mean, people might and I was a cocktail pianist at one point in
high school. Actually. I used to like play used to play cocktail music for like fundraisers and, you know, private parties. And then I actually after my freshman year in college, I had this whole, you know, I mean it was it was a tough time. Like I was I guess freshman year, I really wasn't sure what
to do with myself, just in life. I was when I was growing up, I always thought I was gonna be a concert Pianist and basically, sort of like, late high school, I started thinking to myself, maybe I'm not gonna be a concert pianist, you know. So I took a year off after my freshman year in college to give concerts, and basically, spend my days, like just playing the piano all the time. And that was the year where I
was. I did a lot of cocktail piano as you know, which was, which was a whole other world. And I mean as far as other stuff too I even I even wrote like telephone hold music which was really interesting. I've done, you know, I I just love writing music. So before I knew how to get gigs, I would just, I had a friend who read, who worked at a restaurant who reached out to me and was like, so I got a gig for you and I was like, oh, what is it? He's like the restaurant needs
hold music. Would you, you know, do you think you would do something? And I was like this is incredible. So excited like he's like there's no pay but they'll like buy you a drink and I was like let's do this. So you know, I wrote this kind of like spa music that I thought be relaxing when you know get put on hold and I had my friend. You're so nice like they would call the restaurant and they would be like, oh could you please put me on hold you know, like so they could not hear the
music, you know. So so those might be some unexpected gigs, you know, we all expected gigs right? Like you. Yeah. That's yeah, that's such a cool way to release music like. Hey, all right, here's my new track call. This number call this at exactly call this number. And and it also makes you appreciate to like how I mean the many places that music does exist, you know? That is every place you hear music, somebody worked on.
Exactly, you know. And the lesson to me was just like, if you're, if you're this excited about writing music for literally any possible context, it must mean that you really like writing music, you know, and I think those were the, those were, the kind of the lessons. I think I was having for, to my to myself, sort of like, everyone's trying to figure out what to do and you don't know enough because you haven't lived enough.
And the thing that I started realizing was just how did I want to spend my day if I could structure my Anyway, what would what would I do? And I was in a band in college and I was scoring Friends movies, and I realized that if I was just writing music all day, I'd be pretty happy. So, you know, over. So you just start figuring out, well, maybe that's what I should do be doing and were you able to make enough money like doing stuff in college?
Or was it, you had to have a side job and not at all. It was the passion that. Yes. So in college. So, the, the cocktail gigs were were great, but I mean, there were only so many different ways. Nobody ever change for someone in summoning cocktails that there's not that many not that many opportunities for that. So, I was also an organist. I was a church organist in the Summers. Well, in Colorado, I was the Jewish organist in an Episcopal Church, which was which was fascinating.
Those were, those were some of the Musical musical ways in college that I would try to make some money. But but, you know, I think for film and TV and, and the Arts in general, I think it's like it is a long term investment See. Now it takes, it takes a long time, it takes so much work and and so many projects until you start. Hopefully, getting the opportunity to get really paid for it. Yeah, totally.
Totally. Have you had moments where I don't know you're on the trajectory but you're like I don't know how to get to the next rung of this. Like I'm scoring four friends shorts. And but how do I actually score a feature or how do I score somebody? That doesn't even know me or I mean, absolutely. Did you had some moments where your You. Yeah.
I mean it's it and it's interesting too because I think it speaks to the whole industry as well, where it's like certain industries are structured in ways where they're more like where there's a more obvious on ramp in a way. You know I've been talking to some friends about this just in the context of the world today where it's like you know, if you think about like being a lawyer being a doctor, let's just say
as an example. You know there are certain schools that you go to and you get an approved degree of a certain sort and then it leads there's the end of a track and I think Arts Entertainment is much more amorphous. It's much more, it's much more unclear, how, what that on-ramp is? You know? And and I one thing I've been spending time thinking about is like creating more ways to like demystify the process or do
mentorships. I've been trying to teach a bit and talk about that because I think it's I think that way we will get more, you know, there's just so many incredibly talented people who either don't have an opportunity to do this or who don't. Even aren't even exposed to the opportunity you know to know that they could be amazing at it in a way I think Hollywood is is a freelance industry. Like almost everybody is freelancing and free.
Like for example freelance musicians, you know it's like a we're all gig to Gig which which has opportunities because you're flexible and you can take on new projects and you go from one cool thing to another. But also there's a sense of what is the structure? What's the stability of the structure? Over long periods of time? I know I wanted to talk to you about. That because you have a really good work schedule.
Work structure, like your you are very busy and obviously like you have your studio at your home so you can just do it whenever. But how do you continue to turn and work and always stay inspired? I mean, you know, for me, I've like, I've done a little bit of music, but when I do it, it's because there's something in me, that's like, okay, I gotta write a song and it's, it comes out of some urge that's in that moment or yeah, something happened that inspired words or you know whatever.
But but you do this every day and you're able to like I don't know, it just love to hear like how that works and if some days you wake up and you're like I don't know how to make music today but then somehow you do you know or if it's a process of like you're making a lot and you're like I know I'm going to make x amount of music and some of it will just be unusable I
think. Combination of things, I think in college when I was in my band, I would make, you know, a lot of beat like I was hugely into making and producing hip, hop beats. And I would, I would work, I mean I would make I was making so many tracks every day. You know, it was just, it was just, I just loved it.
And but one of the things, my, my friend Jake and I would do is we had this sort of rule for ourselves which was it sounds really basic but we felt it was like the most profound realization and all it was was that we said Ed, if it feels good, keep going. And if it doesn't stop, and that
was the rule. And it was, when we figured that out, it was like a revelation to us, because I think there are these times where it's something, you know, some things like not quite working, but you're like, no, I'm gonna like push it through. It's like, don't just, just stop. Just go away. Just pause, do something else and come back tomorrow. And the weirdest thing is like, time tells you everything, you know, like I feel I feel and also it takes the pressure.
Our off those moments where a lot of it is like, you know, yes you want to just experiment with things and you just try something and there's no way to know beforehand if it's anything is ever. It's going to work. You know I literally never have any idea.
If something is going to work I just do it and then I don't judge it and then 24 or 48 hours later you come back to and you're like oh that was that's kind of interesting and then the other one you're like, oh wow, never never play that ever again. Sometimes when I'm making music it comes out in this flurry and then I think back and I'm like, whoa, those four hours? I don't know how I came up with that. I don't know how any of this happened but it just happened. Do you have that?
Like, you know, is that, is that a part of the process that you're just? Like, I think, whenever music or art is intellectual in, it's like execution. I don't think it works. I think it has to be kind of visceral, you know, like like in a way, like you study things. You learn about technique, you practice.
So that in the moment, you don't Any of that and you just go kind of from your gut, you know, and and in a way I think it's like it's like what you were talking about with performance, you know? I mean I think I think the moment that you're writing something let's say is kind of like a performance that you just freeze and then you work on it,
you know what I mean? Like like like every idea that that ends up being finished at one point was just like a anime, like it emerged as almost improvisation and then it And then you edit it and you choose and you say, no, I don't like this. And, you know, so that that first kind of moment of something in a way for everything is always a performance, you know. And so it has to be like I'm sure if you're on stage or in front of a camera you know that moment is that special thing,
right? Totally. That's why. When you do a TR which is the the redoing of your lines in a studio, six months later. Yeah, it's so weird because there's so many factors that Happen out of thin air, right in a room with somebody with cameras happening to be there, but you just can't recreate that later but that speaks to like what you were saying earlier like, do you for example for a Dr. Do you do even more of a
kind of immersion? You know, I try to wear something that was similar and maybe and I try to if my body's like moving, I just gotta I gotta move while I'm saying the line or I don't know. You do you do a lot of face imagining like opening that person? There and oh what like like literally like mental kind of visualization or I guess you're sometimes, you're looking at a face on the screen, you know, you're the screens in front of you so so you're looking at them.
And so you're trying to basically talk to a screen version of a human that you used to be with you. Yeah, that you were talking to it is the performance stuff is fascinating, though. I think that's a whole. I mean, that could be a whole other hour of conversation because I feel like thinking about preparing for things was,
is such a big thing. And I know I kind of struggle That too because sometimes when you're on set and some things is super important moment for you and, you know, sometimes you've been thinking about this one scene four months. Yeah. Or a year or something, you know. So you might preparing for this moment and then somebody is there and they want to have a conversation about like basketball like the NBA, I don't know where what a great craft services.
Like it's so weird. How the coffee taste today or something? And, and that's a part of onset culture to but you know, Sometimes you just have these, these distractions, and it's hard to separate and then
sometimes you want to use them. Like, for instance, in that sick session Congress. Seeing there's a room full of background actors there and read tog, refers and fake senators, and all this stuff and sort of, I want to look at them and use them beforehand and get some of that energy, maybe you can kind of get thrown, but then sometimes you also want to use it. That's really smart.
That's where your so in it already, actually, you're already, you've already spun it in your favor, but Different. When you're playing piano in front of a group of people, you know, this piece that's extremely specific, like I'm thinking because I saw you play in that every College Juilliard night, you know, that's a room. It's a Symphony Hall, full of people and there's 100 people on stage with you that have all rehearsed in your there. How do you alleviate the
pressure of the? I'd be interested to know. Like yeah and granted you wrote that psoas like it is it's coming straight out of you right. But but what does that That what is that? Like, and how do you, I think every time it's different, you know, it's kind of, like, in a way, I was reading something about this, or where, basically, it was kind of the idea that like, if you're ever not nervous before a performance, it means
something's wrong. Like, in a way I think part of it is realizing that sometimes what we interpret, as anxiety is actually excitement, you know, because it's your body before performance, you have energy, like your body is energized, you know. And I think if you said yourself, no, I'm just excited about this. You know, that's, that's, that's one positive thing, but I think the other is just like, I think the part of our brains that does
performance like live. For example, the part of my brain that like helps play the piano, you know, is not the rational, part of my brain. And I learned that maybe the hard way. But is, like, the part of your brain, which thinks about everything, which knows normal thing. That's not what's playing the piano. The part. This plant has some other part of your brain. That's deep. / and more subconscious.
And so I actually think in a weird way it's like about getting out of your own way, you get out of your head and you don't think about it actually, you just get out there and you're just like I'm just gonna do, you know I think I think anytime that I am thinking about my planning, it's never a good
thing. But if I'm not thinking the irony is like, it seems like almost irresponsible, you're like I'm not thinking about what I'm doing but it's actually that's how you do it, which is a whole weird. That we have but I've obviously thought way too much about it. No, no, I love that. I think that's right. You kind of have to tap out of yourself yourself as a as an ordinary human. Like just it's like I'm about to
do this thing. That is extremely different from the rest of my day, the rest of my life, which is enter this instrument in front of a room full of people. So that is a different aspect of myself and I gotta breathe into that. Exactly. And have to allow that to kind of Do its own thing, you know? Yeah. And in a weird way.
Like, that's the bizarre thing. I've have, you felt over the years like that, there are performances that you've given X. You've been on stage or what have you in front of a camera and you didn't even know kind of seemingly what you were doing or you weren't prepared in the way that you thought you should be. And yet it was the best thing you've done, you know, like I've had that happen where I remember giving a concert where I really for whatever the reason did not
think I was prepared for it and without question is one of the best Winces I ever gave. And in some sense, I think that made it even more complicated for me, because I was like, wait until I don't even know if by not preparing, I gave the best concert. Now, I'm just confused. Well I like I think the best moments as a performer are the ones where you're just okay with the mystery of how it's going.
Yeah, I don't know, I don't know how this is going and I'm not judging it. Actually, I'm just in it and there are no boundaries. I weirdly just feel like I can't do anything right now and it's just me. It's my expression just coming out and I think that's the place you want to get to. So you're not like strong-arming something into what you thought the night before. Supposed to be your what you think, people are going to expect of you to do today. It's that's right.
And if I have to shed all of all that stuff in your, like I actually don't know what it's gonna be but I know I really want to play this song or know. I really want to do this scene. I know there's something there's some engine here for me. So I'm just going to do that and then as an actor, you know specifically, when I feel like okay this scene is overwhelming. Like there was there was a scene this season that just sounds like I don't know what I'm doing here.
This Feels, I feel like I'm acting in a lot that I'm trying to achieve this thing that the scene feels like it requires and that feels bad. I feel like a bad actor today, I just don't feel you feel like you're doing as opposed to like being yeah. Where I'm like, I know there's an expectation for the scene and so I should make sure like a certain moment. I have a lot of excitement on my face. So I have a lot of, you know,
and that's not everywhere. I want to be, like, I don't want to think about what I have to achieve. Am I making sense? You're totally makes idiots like because you're, it's kind of like what I was saying about the piano to. It's like you're thinking about about it and almost like a success failure or cause-effect kind of a way. And in a bizarre way, I think in order for a performance of any sort to be in it properly, it can't be about, like, success or failure or kinds of that.
Exactly. Because then it pressurizes, it, and it makes it like, there's a result, you need to get to, for the scene, in order for it for ability to walk away and go. Next thing and feel like we got that scene and this scene probably didn't even require that. But for whatever reason, I built this in. And in those moments, I usually just go. Okay. And I have an actor, I had Jeremy in the room. Yeah, I'm like I'm just going to rely on what Jeremy gives me and I'm going to back off the
result. I think I need to get to in here and that to me always kind of grounds me and I don't know how it is in music if you're just sort of. Like it's just me and him. Wouldn't bunch of Ivory and metal here, whatever. But there's there was something nice about, you know, if I'm with Matthew or from with on any set with any actor, I'm just sort of like I'm with a person
here. Okay, let me just be with the persister cells usually responding other I think for me that's why I love collaboration actually that's kind of the answer to it in a way. That's why I think I'm so drawn to working with others and that's why I love working with directors, you know, is because they have a vision, I get to
receive that vision from them. And so no matter what I'm focused on or doing, I can always like, there's always something to resonate with in a way you're kind of free. You know, it's that sort of liberating constraint, kind of a thing. Ultimately, you know, that there is this Vision that you would be will be a part of that you can learn from that, you can discuss and it kind of takes you. I think, for sure, it takes me out of my own head. Yeah, it's a conversation. Totally.
It's a conversation. Yeah, that feels exactly right. Look, I could just keep talking to you for another hour at least, maybe we'll just keep. Yeah well, I love it man. I love talking to you. All right, to talk fascinating. Yeah. Yeah, really, really cool dude. But it's great to see you via a computer screen man. And yeah yeah we're talking to you. I hope I hope I see you in real life.
Yeah. Let's let's you know hopefully in the not too distant future maybe we can do a socially distanced you know hello or you know distanced coffee. At some point in New York, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Just drink drinks. Close to each other. Yeah. But but but like fully hat you know protected in gear of some you know visors and mass Saran Wrap and stuff. Yeah, exactly exactly. But say so safety but you will see each other. Yeah. Thank you a 24 for thank you a 24. Yes together.
Yeah and and there we have it. Thanks for listening. Listen, the 824 podcast is produced by us a 24 special. Thanks to our editor Tom Wyatt and robot repair who composed our theme