143 A Box of Magick with Witchcraft Author Jamie Della

I am so happy to have you here . If this is your first time meeting with me , welcome , I'm so happy to have you .

I'm Dianne and I'm that witch next door , and today I am incredibly excited and honored to get to introduce you to the lovely Jamie Della , author of many books , Chicana Witch , who I am so excited to get to ask some questions today about her newest book , A Box of Magic . Jamie , would you go ahead and say hello for all of our listeners today .

As many of you know around here my little ADHD self , I've got about maybe 12 books I'm reading right now .

No , jamie , the first way I always start off with every single guest on the show is could you tell us first your big three , if you know , your big three in astrology , and your chart , and a little bit about you as a witch , so any branches of magic that you're most drawn to or practice the most and have the most experience in ?

But the bitching thing about Capricorns is we're the Benjamin button of the Zodiac , so we age backwards . I love that . So we loosen up , we start off . I couldn't , I could not be teased . I could not . Oh my gosh , I hated to be teased and you know I was in junior high school with Van Halen , came out with Jamie's crying and people love to do that .

But , yeah , exactly , but earlier the bionic woman had come out and her name was Jamie . When I was in , when I we were like in second grade and I was able to convince the boys that I could kick their butt because I could hear them talking about me . I love that and seven year old boys believed me and I'm like , okay , well , that's your fault .

So I was , my grandmother was a , a terro psychic reader . So I grew up with this as very much this lifestyle , astrology , numerology , manifestation , just all big part of my life . It was all very inherent , not necessarily witchcraft , but all these different elements of it . So I had , right before I was born , my grandmother died the month before I was born .

So she , her , her death day was Tuesday and my birthday is in five weeks . So and my Leo mom was very young and didn't know how to really deal with that . So for me , my second , then my other grandmother , would say well , honey , yes , of course you were late , you were going to be a Sagittarius , but you had to be a Capricorn to deal with her .

I'm like I know and I say that because it was like I was the structure to her fluidity , kind of a little bit of what you were talking about with this upcoming weekend , having this total party vibe , you know , and needing a little bit of the Shiva to the Shakti .

And so so I had those two big influences a grandmother who was on the other side , who I spoke with all the time . A grandmother who was a psychic to reader , who was teaching me about portals at 1111 .

And we'll hunt , you know , telling me that my light was so bright and the spirits could , could hear me , because we lived in a , in a part of Orange County , california , where our ancestors had lived for over 200 years . So I was hearing the ancestors at eight years old and not knowing what that , what that , what that was , what that meant .

I just thought I was going crazy , honestly , you know , until my grandmother explained to me well , you're , you're hearing 10 generations of ancestors because you're the awake one and you're right here and so so that was part of it . And then I was raised Christian scientist and people always get us confused with the Scientology .

I'm like , no , no , no , we're the ones that people think that we don't believe in doctors . Like , of course , I believe they exist , but I , you know , I just don't , I just don't call them very often . Yeah , you know I would . I would rather .

I would rather look at like we're talking about a cold , with things that come on when , when you're emotionally distraught .

Or I remember the first time where you'd have like a big school event and you'd feel a cold coming on and you'd pray and you'd do your thing with a Christian science until you could , and then you would get through to your great event and then the next day you would get sick , and so then people would think , well then , how do you think that we don't have

power ? If we can delay it past one day , past prom , then we have power , you know , oh , yeah , so , and then it was just , you know your own tendencies . So I was all really a barefoot person hugging trees and then I was introduced to Wicca . Well , actually , first I was introduced to the , to the subots . I was .

I was invited to the subots in late 19 , or , like I don't know , 1990s , late 1990s . I went to my first pagan subots and of course I think the first one was Beltane , which was always my favorite . And so , going to to the subots back then , that's how we were introduced to it .

I mean , it was so secret you , the accessibility that we have now is a thousandfold more than the accessibility that we had then , where you would have , you know , a correspondence school that you could like right away for and then they would send you information . That was that's how it would be .

Or maybe you'd find the witch shops and you would go into a couple and there . So for me that's how it began . And then I took classes at Eye of the Cat in Long Beach , california , and that's kind of an iconic place out here in Southern California for witches and has been in business for decades . So that's how I began .

I was eclectic , the Celtic , because the the Wicca cookbook was my first book in 2000 . And it couldn't necessarily . It wasn't easy to go to a Barnes and Noble , it wasn't easy to get like there wasn't a whole bunch of witch shops , so the best way to let people know was by going to Celtic festivals .

Okay , so because the Celts are either Pagans or Catholic , yes . That's a virus . Yeah , yeah , exactly . I have a big section , a big quadrant of myself that's Irish , and so you pull up those roots and you tap into that part of you because , with that Capricorn nature , authenticity , transparency , honesty , integrity are really high , high , high , high .

So I'm not going to enter into a tradition or something without invitation or in some way feeling the community in my heart , you know . And so so , yeah , it was Scottish Highland Games and Irish Bears , and that's where I would sell my books next to in the shop called Tea and Sympathy , and my other authors that were next to me .

I was , you know , the only witchcraft author , the only one introducing Wicca to this community , because the other ones next to me were writing historical romance , just like the Highlander , not Highlander . What is it called ? Oh , I know , it's a yes , yes , yes , I know what you're talking about drafts . Sorry , everybody .

I felt also at the time , in the early 2000s , it was the farm to table movement that was just really starting and really this idea how important it is to each other , really this idea how important it is to eat seasonally , how the food is more vibrant , how it has more life force , and that's why we're eating , it is to keep ourselves alive .

And so just this idea of eating seasonally and moving with nature , which , to me , has always been my draw for witchcraft is how do we , how do we live it ?

And I really liked it as the mandala of nature because it's about studying how the seasons live through you and how you live through them . It's not just us in nature , it's nature within us as well , going through those cycles and changes . And so for me , that's always been the witchcraft that's been the most appealing to me .

So , whether you call it cream or hedge or you know whatever , I'm not . I'm not maybe because I know I can be stoic and get stuck .

I don't tend to stay away from labels , just like I never want , because , like back in the day when I wanted to smoke cloves but I thought , oh , it would keep me from smoking cigarettes because they were so unacceptable publicly and it was like my way of monitoring myself is the same way with the , with the labels .

Sometimes , that way I can stay a little more fluid . But yeah , so so that's how I came to the craft that that's wicca . Celtic and fairy and eclectic are really , you know , for me to again , it's a time of the , the time that I was in is that you have to be more . There was a lot of native spirituality too , a lot of , you know .

The accessibility was different 25 years ago the , the , the opportunities to go in deep and quiet and find a mentor within that community . I was able to do that as well .

So , just all these ways of incorporating so many different things I mean the wicca that I learned has some roots with the cabala , with the golden dawn , with nights of the Templars so there's just so much that we're constantly incorporating into our practice and finding ways to do that in the most respectful ways , especially if we find out that something was like

taboo or something we didn't realize like , like sage , for example , you know , yeah , so I always . There's a sage bush that I visit every year to get my supply . And that's that's where I go and it's on the land that my family's lived on for 260 years .

So there's songs and there's blessings and there's ways to do things that are just have been part of my practice for so long now . Sometimes it's hard to differentiate and how to you know when people say , well , what do you mean ? Live the magic . I'm like I don't know how to describe it . Can I show you my office ? Can I show you all the alters ?

Because it is this beautiful , always developing spectrum of these things that we are drawn to and we learn about , and some of those things are in our life for a season . Sometimes they last for our entire lifetime . But that is exactly one of the most sacred parts of spirituality . Magic , witchcraft is the ebb and the flow , that organic , growing nature of it .

It's never , ever a stagnant practice in nature . It's never , ever , ever stagnant . I love that so , so much .

I always tell people , accurately speaking , I'm an eclectic witch , because that's just the most accurate label for it , but I definitely have these things throughout my practice that I was really strongly drawn to for periods of time , or maybe I let go of and found something else . Astrology came into my life and I always say it filled in all the cracks .

It was like the glue that just brought everything together . It's the language I totally understand our universe through .

So you are our first published author on the show and I'm very honored and very excited to have you , because that is a longstanding , very big dream of mine I am a writer in my heart and that's probably been on my bucket list since I was like five years old is to become a published author , and so I first wanted to ask how did you first enter into the

world of writing spiritual books ? And I have to ask , I am also so specifically intrigued by your books for teenagers because they are kind of very glossed over in the spiritual and witchcraft industry , and I love that you had more than one book for teens . So how did you get into writing and becoming an author ? Oh , thank you .

You know , when I was seven years old , I remember writing this story . It was a really cool thing . You , I wrote it like a comic strip . So I cut a piece of paper in half lengthways and I made this long comic strip and I wrote my story in sections and then I tape .

Then I taped it to a pencil that I stuck through a shoebox Another pencil on the other side and you could roll the story through the shoebox . So I just came up with that all by myself . Apparently , I taught myself how to read . Both my mom and I kindergarten teacher were like , well , that was so great , you got her to read .

But they both looked at each other like I didn't teach her . So I think words and stories have always held a special place in my life , because I find to , as you know , with I'm Mexican and with my grandmother dying before I was born , it was Grandma Coco right away . So there was always this ability to to recognize that stories change .

You know , everyone had a different story about my grandmother , everyone had a different way of interpreting her and I learned very early on that your perspective is how you shape the reader , like it's where you put the blinders on . So you're like look this direction .

And so I thought , I thought that and as a young Capricorn I'm like that would make me very powerful . That was my eight year old thought , and so I always wanted to write stories . Originally , my first desire was to write children's stories for Highlights magazine . Wow , that was , that was my top .

If you had told me that I was going to have 10 books under my belt , I would not have believed you .

I just wanted to write stories for children to help them recognize that their enthusiasm because I was always called a spaz and so hyper and all those things you know that their enthusiasm and their connection to nature , to be able to really feel that the tree's aliveness that you feel as a child .

Or Rudolph Steiner calls it the Garden of Spirits , where you really listen to the ladybug and you and you hear the sound of the river and you and you feel the conversation going around you . And I wanted to really emphasize to kids don't let that go , because every adult goes back , tries to crawl back into the womb . Every adult , most adults , will try .

I'm sorry , there's not , that's not true . There'll be some adults that will just keep trying to gain and gain , and gain . But many of us do return to this original innocence , our innate loveability , our divine right to co-create with the universe .

We try to find that wonder as a child that we had so that we can apply that to our life today with that excitement . And so that's where I started and I wrote . The first article I ever had published was about my best friend was Bulimic , and it was about writing about the experience of being next to somebody whom you couldn't help but wanted to help .

Wow , and that from there I was going to a correspondent school . I found a job for working for a literary agent . And you know , like when the universe sends you a sign and it doesn't matter , like the print was tiny , it was like maybe an inch by a half an inch , the ad and the paper , but it jumped out at me . It was my job . I went for that job .

So I had been making you know five , like I think I had made $40,000 in 1996 . And then I left the job to become a literary agent assistant for $7 an hour because I wanted to get into the industry I wanted . I was like I'm young enough that I really don't have the bills that I , you know at this point .

So I might as well do the hard work now and learn the industry as a business , because , as writers , it's our passion , right , it's , it's the story we have to tell , it's the perspective that we want to share , it's some right or truth that we want out there in the world and to the publishing world . It's a business and you're a widget .

It's , it's something to sell . You have a platform , you have a product and you have to realize that you are the product and your platform is the product and your books are the product .

And that's a really hard place when something , when the thing you're writing about is about your deep spirituality and your deeper truths and connections and and so learning to , to really put that line in between . That hat on .

But as a writer , I've taught writing classes before and I'll say you know , the critic and the creator don't belong in the same room , they don't need to be in the same room together . You can put one and as , as neurodivergent you know we could do this we can put on our creative hat and then go oh no , I'm in it . Now I'm in the critical mood .

You know now I'm going to put on my editor's hat , because if you wake up and you sit at the page and the blank page is just staring back at you taunting you , then then the best thing to do is pull out what you've already written and edit that go with the flow of the mood that you're in . And so that's kind of just been how I've written .

And so I was working for this literary agent for a couple of years as her assistant and I had just had my first child and I remember circling this tree with my baby saying , praying to the goddess please give me a way to make a living . I can't stay at home because just to stay at home , mom , I've got too much work horse in me to do that .

And within a week a publisher , an editor , called my agent and said do you know someone who could write the Wicca cookbook ? Because they saw the market in 1999 that Wicca was becoming popular . So that's that's how .

I'm not sure if that's how it's still done in the world of publishing , but basically editors have to keep their job and they're seeing down the road Just kind of like devils were proud . The devil was proud of which talks about that color blue has been in the system for two years . So the same thing is true of publishing .

By the time you wanted to write a vampire book , it was already . The market was flooded . You know this kind of a thing right now , and so you . So they saw Wicca coming early on and it was gaining in strength until 9 11 happened and then it went underground again and then it lost a lot of momentum because it was a lot scarier .

I mean , if you just we were because of Matthew Perry crossing , we were just watching repeats of friends and you know , phoebe is just was all about the aura and the super new agey spirituality stuff . So all that was cool . So witchcraft was kind of like on the coattails Of that for a long time .

And then if you could say , say , oh , it's about spirituality and astrology and seasonal living , then it wasn't as scary as spellwork , right , you know . So you just for me , I always had to find those inroads , because I find people .

Today I saw meme where someone was making fun of a muggle for not being able to pronounce someone properly and I thought , you know , if I dissed every person that dissed me first , then witchcraft wouldn't be where it is today , and I'm not just saying me myself brought that together , but all of us who were early out there in the public in the early 2000s ,

educating , not ridiculing , and that's just so important because , whether we like it or not , you know the , the mainstream has the power right now . Yeah , so you know , for us to be off putting it doesn't help . It's kind of like when you're a woman and standing up for yourself and if you do it too much , then you , then you're a bitch .

If you do it too little , you're too like you've got to . It's the same thing with witchcraft Finding that way . That's why I tell people spells or prayers in 3D and you thought , oh no , wow , you're using a Christian word Like oh , come on , really we do a lot of that debunking around here I'll tell you that there's more than one path to God .

So you had the seasonals , so you had the , the current moment , movement , then the , then the the power of our history and the past to to be our foundation . And then that publisher as soon as I turned into the book , that publisher went bankrupt . Then , the next month later , I gave birth to my second son .

So you know how it is after you have a baby , you don't have all your brains .

But what happened was we were able to get the , the , the book , out of litigation and resold to another publisher , but it took nine months and I feel like that nine month of gestation after writing the book and waiting to see if it could actually be born was the universe's way of testing my metal . Are you going to be able to do this ?

Can you stand up and say you are a witch , a wick in ? Can you ? Are you willing ? You know , at the PTA meeting at , you know , one time I was at at a university and they were going through the HR where you where you find out like how you can't discriminate people and this , that and the other thing .

This was in like 2005 and they were talking about all our rights and I said , okay , well , I'm wick and so I just want to make sure that you know that , I know I'm protected . And this was like in a room of like 20 people and they're all just looking at me .

But I thought , you know , we get one life and I'm just , I'm just that person that just likes to throw it out there and then I'll deal with it .

And part of it , I think too , is because of that long history in California I count my family ancestors were the California dons and donas of the early Ranchero period , and so there's an arrogant streak in me that it just will look down at you with such disdain .

So I can go out there and say , yes , I am protected , and they can look at me like I have , like I have just grown , you know horns , and I can look right back at them like I am the most regal person ever , and they just stop and just being able to do that , and then you come home and go , oh my God , oh my God , oh my God .

You pour yourself a glass of wine and you're like that was scary , you know , but you do it anyways . Fear , fear to me is a companion who says look ahead , there's something here you might need to look out for . Yeah , fear isn't saying you have to stop . It's fear is just saying keep your eyes open .

Oh , I like that , and so for me that's kind of the early days of Witchcraft

. It was hard . I mean , there was definitely comments that were made , things that were said in public 20 years ago it was radio interviews , not podcast interviews , you know , yeah , and they would ask questions like oh , do you still fly around on brooms ?

We use vacuum cleaners now and dust busters for short trips . We've got the family carpet in case we need to go far . There's a lot of us . Oh , I love it . And just , you know , that's what I found . The thing that opens up people the most is to joke right back .

I have a new friend in her seventies and she keeps sending me all these kind of I'm not sure , uh , which memes , very , which aesthetic , not very , which like , and and I just keep sending her back the ones back that I like , and she , and then she will say something about being weird .

I'm like weird , and then I just go on this whole thing about the Anglo Saxon . Weird means that it is spated and disconnected . She goes I'm learning something new every day and you , just you keep finding those inroads where you can soften , because what we want us to live , our practice Exactly .

The first time I started reading these words , I felt understood in ways that I had always felt so different , so misunderstood . And so when you're greeted with that misunderstanding again , it is hard not to react to it .

I know , I agree , just like they do with climate change and science , and science can only disprove . It's not necessarily the way that they have the scientific method set up . And so for witchcraft to be able to say , well , we are all our own best teachers , and they're like wait what ? What are your rules ?

I'm none For everyone , most of us but then I say that you can say are there evil women and kind men and stingy Catholics and generous Jewish people and whatever ? Every color , every creed , every religion . That has a stereotype . You can break it and you can be the good and the bad and the ugly . Does it matter where you are ?

Yes , and it's just being able to describe things like even the pentacle . You know , it's elements with spirit and a circle of life . Oh , that's it .

Yes , and it does get exhausting and at the same time , I feel like that's also why it was always called the nameless arts , because of this fact that , you know , first of all , we couldn't name it for the longest time . Right , we had to be secret .

So she had a bat with her and after I was describing what Wicca is and from my perspective , my version , my practice , she goes I think I have a witch and I'm like that happens .

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Thanks , and now back to today's show . Okay , so this is perfect . Perfect segue to my next question , which is how has being an author influenced you as a witch , and how has being a witch influenced you as an author ?

I had the teachings from my grandmother about what each of the archetypes meant , and I had a couple of friends that were readers , so I asked individual people how they interpreted the strength card , how do you interpret the hermit , all those different things . I wouldn't have done that study , I don't think , if I wasn't an author .

I think I just would have kept a few of the things that I knew and I wouldn't have pushed myself to know more and challenge that rigidity that comes with being a Capricorn . And so , as an author , I was challenged because when we think something and you hold it , you feel like I can't let it be flexible , otherwise I'll lose the truth .

And so I feel like that was something that was very much a part of who I was in my 20s and my 30s that as soon as I held on to a truth , it was the white knuckle , just like you were describing earlier in your podcast for this week or your Moon report for this week that holding on to something so much and I think we do that , and so , as an author

, it expanded my witchcraft knowledge and therefore practice . So that's that direction . And then , how has being a witch influenced my writing ? Well , there's a story I've been trying to write about my ancestors for 30 years , but I just keep writing witchcraft books . So that's one of the ways .

But the funny thing is is that had I written the book about my ancestors 20 years ago that I started , I would have been canceled by now because of the information that was available . It would have . I would have come off so , oh , just bad , just bad in so many ways , of not knowing so much about the colonization of the indigenous people and so much .

I would go to powwows and still be proud of my Spanish ancestors . Like I was so split and not even realizing that here I was embracing an indigenous culture , at the same time embracing the people that reduce their population by 90% . So in Southern California , in Orange County , where I was an LA , and so .

So that kind of dichotomy that takes time , and witchcraft has taught me that it means one thing to say you're a witch when you're 20 . And it's another thing at 30 , another thing at 40 , a different 50 , 60 , 70 , 80 .

It means something different each time , and so I feel like that allowance of the growth through this season has helped me gain a better perspective on this very intricate story that I want to tell about this novel that I keep researching . That would begin in 1848 in early California , and I have all these records .

I mean I've studied so much of my family history . I have , I have the notes of the , of the sea captain that brought my you know , that brought one of my ancestors over here , so there's so much there and then tempering it with what I know today and allowing that growth and that maturity and also this idea of polarity . You were , you were .

Again I keep referencing . I loved your . This morning I was getting ready listening to your Monday around here .

I appreciate that , gosh , I was loving it , but just allowing that idea of you're going to evolve and you're going to change and the thing that you thought had to be true , otherwise you would die if you didn't get that thing and allowing it to evolve is something you learned through witchcraft . Yes , it is .

Yes , it is , and that's something that when you have a story and you want to tell it from a certain perspective , and then you realize that every good guy has a has some nasty side and every nasty guy has some good , and there isn't this polar opposite , there's really just this movement , and that was really important , because all my you know , all my bad guys

were horrible and all my good guys were amazing . And so learning how to sprinkle a little bit of a little bit of both sides into everybody so that , so that there's more reality , versus again creating a polar opposite world , like moving more into that fifth dimension through recognizing our ability to include all of it the life and the death .

I have a huge , a huge painting over here of Kali and she's talking to me . Oh , I love that .

Our brains are very naturally hardwired to fear what we can't see or feel , or smell or touch , write any of those triple earth sign .

We're very brought up under the sun and under the light , and it's those of us that reconnect with our relationship with the moon that realize in the dark it's a different kind of illumination . Even though you can't necessarily quote unquote , see , I love that . So , so , so much . I want to ask you especially it .

Just again , you're connecting all my questions perfectly to each other and we are in very good sync . So I felt very moved by your chapter on divination and this is an area that with clients and students that I work with .

From what I see and who I interact with on social media , but even just people in my daily life , there is so much misconception around psychic and being psychic and a psychic reading and I really want to ask you personally , because you've had experience in the spiritual industry through these past decades before , right now , which again we're so blessed so many of

us having getting our introduction to witchcraft now is a blessing because it is so acceptable , it is so accessible compared comparatively , but I think the idea of a psychic and a psychic reading has morphed , but I also think it's been so misunderstood for very , very , very long .

Can you share with us a little bit about how you came to understand and work with divination ?

. So you know , my , I thought she was weird , right , like , not in the good way , weird , like she scared me . You know , she was this big woman , she , you know she was always crazy . War , what did I say ?

Animal skin , leopard skin , whatever , like looking silk , mumus and chunky jewelry , and she was a really big woman and I just always thought she was crazy and it was embarrassing to me and it was , it was .

I thought she was making it up , I thought she was making it up and because she was a showboat , she would literally , in the 80s she was on the princess cruise line as a psychic tarot reader .

Like my family has not been shy about their , their involvement in in these spiritual arts , but the one time that I , when I was convinced , I remember my turning point .

I was 11 years old and we had a foreign exchange student who had come to stay with us and my Nana sat down with her to give her a reading and she also loved past life readings and how past lives and soul families were affecting your life today . Oh well , you know . So she was explaining to Paloma Isn't a past life ?

They had been brothers in a war and she was going on this whole story about what happened to them in a particular battle and it was very specific and Jamie , pause , if you can hear me pause for a second .

You could just see her going , oh my gosh , that , that I get that . And then she described the outside of her house . Because then I'm like , then I'm still thinking maybe that's still quackery , I'm not really sure . But then Nana described the outside of this foreign exchange student's home in Spain , in Barcelona , and it was perfectly exactly how her house was .

And then I thought , oh , she's really getting visions , this is really happening , and it was . And then after that , then we started talking about what's called psychic hits . That would be the . That was the terminology we used a lot back in the day . It's a psychic hit .

And so it was this idea of developing a muscle that you would have to learn to trust your psychic ability . And then I actually worked with in terms of deciding whether or not that divination , thought , is something from the divine or the spirit world of the collective consciousness or whether it's your ego .

I remember asking that question of all things in Christian Science Sunday School and the response came back is when it's true divination . They wouldn't call it divination , but it's the same thing . Listening to the divine , you know it's a quiet , still insistent , calm , confident voice . The ego is fear , is screaming , is yelling , is tense , and there's no time .

With spirit there's plenty of time . So , just in terms of one's own , accessing one's own divinations , that , to me , is the cornerstone , is this idea of time . Because we know , in the world of spirit sometimes you'll say , oh , I , you know , I chose . You know my grandmother used to say , oh , you chose your parents .

Like , don't get mad at your mom , you chose her .

They don't start rolling in their head when someone does the guided meditation , or if they're reading , I don't , the movie doesn't start .

That's really , really , really powerful , because I just think that a lot of people , first of all , a lot of our listeners I think one of the biggest challenges is in these conversations with muggles that I do believe not everybody likes to hear this , but I do believe deep down , when they say lashing out comments like that , I think they're actually very interested

and very intrigued and they don't and they're held back by their own fears and that's how it comes out .

down to that belief and that trust in , in what you're hearing and what you're receiving , because I do believe everyone , everyone has the ability and capability to speak with source .

But I think that they're all muscles that you can work with and strengthen and practice with some maybe you know , just like different arts or skills or talents that we're all born with . I have to practice a lot more visual art than other people .

I have to work way harder to get something to look pretty , but when it comes to writing and words flows out of me , flows easy , that's . It's just , it comes to me . But that doesn't mean you can't learn how to write . That doesn't mean you can't strengthen your writing skills with learning and education and practice and it could be different things .

I'll be like , okay , it's this element and six means this , and it still just doesn't work out for me . But I love my Oracle cards . I love you know the , even just the flipping of the coin or the pendulum or the . You know all the little different ones that you know the magic eight ball .

You know , yes , yes , yeah , like you know all these different ways . I mean , when I went to list them I was like I had to cut all the different ways of that . We have worked to divine . We are always asking the divine .

There were so many different ways all across the world that we've done divination with with bones or rocks or runes or colors or whatever it is , and and it's and it's just . And I do believe too . I want to go back to this idea of trusting the unformed , because I believe this was the work of trusting the goddess .

Yes , I believe that is what Wicca in witchcraft really have have moved forward . I feel like it's not as strong as it was 20 years ago . The goddess work , you know , was so powerful then , but I think that was in part because the goddess is the realm of the darkness , is the realm of the mystery and the unformed in the womb space .

And trusting that is trusting the goddess , which is trusting our own innate , divine , feminine within everybody .

Yes , regardless of how it comes into the world or they , you know , but however the body comes into the world , and so loving that that part of ourselves is and that allowing information to bubble to the surface , a lot of times we're so , like you said , sun wise , sun centered , centric , centric that we're about the action and the going and getting and figuring

it out , versus being still and allowing it to bubble up . Exactly . And that's the same kind of thing with into , with divination . And I feel one of the ways that I tell people about testing or or developing their intuition is begin simple . Begin in moments where it's not chaos , right , like you don't wait until someone's in danger to go . What's my intuition ?

Like you do it in the easy , you do it like at the grocery store . You know easy places and . But the one of the ways I think about it is when you into a room . Let's just say , for example , you into a room and there's a lot of tension in that room . Well , where does it resonate in your body ? Does it ? Does your stomach clench ?

Do you get chills on the back of your arm ? Do your toes go cold ? Does your hair tingle ? You know what part of you was , what part of your body with somatic response . Do you have to tension , fear , disharmony , register that , recognize it . And then , when you enter a place that makes you feel joyful , where does that register in your body ?

Do you feel a lightheartedness ? Do you feel a tingling sensation ? Where do ? Where in your body are you registering positive response ? And then , if you know , this is my negative response , this is my positive response when you go to ask the divine a question in times of need . You'll know , based on how your body feels .

So , I speak the practical language , but that's what I love , so so so much about it , because you do have to unanchor from earth and trust so many of these concepts Absolutely , but there are concrete , tangible ways to bring that into our life that are really not as complicated as most people probably think that they are .

So my question for you is how does your newest book , a Box of Magic , differ , then , from your previous books and some of your earliest writings on Wicca and witchcraft ?

I didn't have confidence . 23 years ago I was writing this is what I believe with that kind of like I hope that's okay , kind of feeling , mm-hmm , you know , and really I had no ambition of where my writing would take me . I didn't know I was going to get a book called the Wicca Cookbook and of course I put it together very practically .

I'm like , okay , there's eight holidays and we're going to have a main dish and two trip side dishes and a drink and dessert and there has to be bread every holiday , just because and I just structured it in that way that I kept with the structure .

And I think what helped carry the vibe through is that I was pregnant with my second son , with the Pisces , so he held that , the lyricism that's in the book . That was the pregnant mama that trusted the Unformed to write that part . So that's how I usually create is I create , I have a structure and then I play within the structure .

So it's like if you would put up the scaffolding and before you know , before even the walls are up , I'm already deciding on the paint . You know , like that's to me how I'm creating , and so I feel like the Wicca Cookbook was raw and honest and I had no idea if it would ever go anywhere or do anything or reach anybody you know .

And then , a year after the cookbook came out , the sci-fi channel called me and asked me if I wanted to host my own cooking show and we filmed that in August of 2001 . And then a couple weeks later , 9-11 happened and I I had in my contract and this is in 2001 , it said I would make $5,000 a week .

I was like , oh hell , yeah , I'm going to be a witch and rich . I just thought that was the greatest thing ever . And then , and then it didn't happen because 9-11 happened and so many things were canceled . But I kept trying . I kept trying to reach that level of influence National TV .

At the time there was a gentleman , a psychic called John I want to say John Williams , but he was a psychic that was on the sci-fi channel . I'm like we're going to be like Happy Days in Laverde and Shirley . I was just ready for this . Then it didn't happen . I have held onto it for a very long time , thinking this was going to happen .

I realized now , instead of me being out there cooking and talking about witchcraft and talking about the seasons and having this TV show or whatnot , and bringing on board a lot of new witches . That's not what happened . What happened was I put out several I think nine books , or eight books , year after year . Then I got tired and I had to set it down .

Witchcraft had gone underground , had gone into social media and Instagram and Facebook started teaching people , not that books weren't , but going to festivals and going to pagan prides and going to different Celtic festivals and book signing events . That wasn't happening as much . It was becoming an internal growth process for our society , for us . Then .

Now I'm the elder , I thought I was going to be the young 30-year-old teaching people and coming from the mother perspective . Now I'm writing from an elder perspective , at 55 , almost 56 , and I didn't think that was going to happen . Now , the thing in a box of magic that's the most important is really the relationship with my mentor .

Yeah , is really about putting her first and us first and the relationship that you have with your fellow witches , what we're teaching each other just in this conversation of solidarity around our eclectic nature . That's kind of a bizarre thing .

You usually have solidarity around because we all believe in the Pledge of Allegiance , for example , or something like this . That's where the solidarity is , but this is a solidarity in . I honor the witch in you . I honor your yumminess , your eclecticness . I feel that that's a lot of what came out in a box of magic .

I always believed that we are owned as teachers , but I feel like now I'm honoring it and honoring the sisterhood and honoring the community that holds us together , and so that arising tidaliffs all boats and so that it's not going to be me writing the wick a cookbook . Even with my sister-in-law , you know , shared that with experience with her .

This is an even more shared experience and that I'm sharing our story . It was the reason I ended up having to leave . The publisher that has been publishing me for had been publishing me for 19 years moved over to another publisher because I want to include memoir this time .

I want to include sitting at a teacher , sitting at someone's knee and saying , okay , but how does this work ? You talked about having your clients . I'm meeting a client tomorrow for the first time who wants to be mentored in witchcraft . So really valuing the relationships in the practice as not more important , but that's the focus of this book .

The focus of this book is the relationships that we have with a drum with a feather , with a statue of Nike . I'm sorry , I'm like looking around all my room . I'm pulling out all the symbols I see here . You know , as our relationship is where the magic is , I don't think I understood that as well 23 years ago .

But I'm reading them and somebody wrote them years ago . That is mind-blowing and this relationship and this dialogue between the two of you , it's powerful , it's so powerful . And what's funny is the first book I ever read was Spells for the Solitary Witch . So it's the opposite . It was about .

It was by Ion Holland , it was specifically about self , because we were coming out of an era of covens . There was a very you know this was that was very , very big , and we were entering and emerging into what . I agree with you .

I think that we had to come into the individual , which I think that it was very meant for the pendulum to swing that way and to really go inward , especially when it comes to healing our generational witch wound , absolutely .

But now we're starting to see the pendulum slowly swing the other way and bring us back to other and bring us back to relationships , and it's really what makes , in my opinion , it's what makes your book really really stand out Among many others .

Whatever it is your those relationships that you have , but showing someone and what was important for me too is the vulnerability Showing that , even at in my early 30s , when I was the and that's the funny thing is , I'm the same age as Connie was . You know , I am now as she was then .

Their energy is always with us , but also that even after at 33 , I had two books under my belt . I was you know all the things that you would say . I was married , I had a college degree , I had by a couple of kids , I had owned a home All the things that should innately give you confidence . Didn't , but she helped me find it .

And I think it's that individual approach that will help you get to those horizons that you might not shoot for without a teacher or a mentor or a guide or someone who believes in you or can even hear your stories of like , oh my gosh . I went to a Barnes and Noble and someone laughed and said , ah , how to cook witches . When they saw my Wicca cookbook .

And I'm scared , I thought something would happen . I didn't know , and I you know where my kids at the public school and what will happen when they find out I'm a witch will their friends ostracize them , like how will this be ? And to have someone who can calm you down and be with you and help you focus and bring your energy back to yourself .

That's what Connie taught me .

Instead of worrying about how I'm gonna protect myself from other's fears , she taught me how to focus on my own light , on my own energy , my dark and my light energy , and that allowing that to protect me versus finding a shield and getting all these things again to allow the power to bubble up , the knowledge , the knowing to bubble up within , because tools are

just that . You know , the feather representing air is really just representing our intellect . So we can have a collection of feathers just to remind us of our own intellect , remind us of all this collection of knowledge that we get . But to me it's like I played soccer . So you do drills , like you memorize correspondences .

You're like , okay , the color pink means this , the tourmaline means that you know , you go through the whole thing , and then you get in the game of life , yeah , and then it just has to be innate and you find out . Like I was , I went 20 years without ever having an atomy Like it . Just , I never needed one , I didn't want one .

I had my two fingers , I was good . That worked for me and I just I find that those having that mentor , having someone , and I wanted to tell people that you can be unnot confident and still move forward .

You can be scared and still follow this practice and it's okay , you're not supposed to , it doesn't make you a good witch if you suddenly don't have a , if you're suddenly not afraid , because I'll still do that . People will ask me what my books are about . If I'm in a work environment or something like this , I'm always .

You know , I used to do the jewelry check if they were wearing like turquoise and you know the sheen on the gig , I was like , oh , I'm safe with you . Yeah , but if they're wearing the Christian cross , I'm like it's a seasonal cookbook . Yeah , tell people that About now . I just say it's witchcraft and just let them deal with their own emotions .

Yeah , because it's not my responsibility to help them . They have to meet me if they want to ask me questions . Oh , my goodness , I will sit with someone for a very long time as long as they're asking respectful questions .

I have a free newsletter that I send out twice a month which includes moon rituals according to this astrology and again through my lens , and always a ritual because again , being the earth sign I'm like , then you can do something with it . And let's see Instagram , twitter , facebook , all of the Yemies .

I'm there sharing as much of myself as possible and connecting with you all , connecting to elevate the witch , to elevate our wild archetype , who is so deeply connected to nature .

And I also have three mentorship programs as well two , wicca and one on writing , writing with the elements , so you sing , working with all the elements as a way to activate your creative self .

Make sure you stay safe and , of course , stay magical out there . Did you get something valuable out of today's show ? First , you can head over to Apple or Spotify and leave a five star rating and review .

You can also share a shout out on your social media page and make sure you tag me at thatwitchnet store and , of course , you can just tell a friend that you think would enjoy the show and send them a link to the episode . Thank you so much , neighbor , for your support . I'll see you next time .