Ep 8: Matt Groom - World Cup Commentary Behind the Scenes

I'm choking up even speaking about it because it was just, it was this moment where like, it didn't matter about the sport. Sometimes dealing with the feedback I do get from various platforms is like enough, honestly, in terms of my mental health. And she said, I'd like to talk about the issue of RED-S and what the IFSC is doing. And what I said was, welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Coming podcast. I'm your host Jinni and I'm excited to introduce my guest.

Well, he hardly needs an introduction if you watch IFSC World Cups, but we're talking to Matt Groom. You probably know Matt as the lead IFSC commentator, but you can also find him commentating other international competitions, working with Epic TV Climbing Daily, or writing articles for UKC. In this episode, we'll get an explanation of everything that goes on in the commentary box. We'll play Matt Groom Bingo, we'll learn about his work outside of the IFSC,

as well as his own personal climbing goals. Hope you enjoy this episode with Matt. All right, thank you so much. How are you doing? I'm good. Thank you. Yeah, very good. It's lovely to meet you and talk. Yeah, lovely to meet and talk as well. Do you have any travel plans coming up? Laval is soon, I think. Yeah, it's actually pretty crazy. I'm coming to the end of the season now. So we've only got a couple of comps left. And I've been like lulled because it's been such an insane summer.

And I've had like maybe two and a bit weeks where I've just had some editing jobs in between. So I sort of convinced myself all the travel was done. But I've got to go to Switzerland on Sunday for a Red Bull Epic TV shoot on that giant dual ascent dam thing. Which should be good. Then I got 10 hour drive to Laval and then do Laval. Finish that and then off to Fontainebleau with Stasha and Unparallel. That's the plan. And then Jakarta for the Asian qualifier straight after that.

Back for four days and then out to Saudi Arabia for another competition. And then, then that's it. Then I'm done. Oh, that is exhausting. When does that end for you? I think Saudi Arabia finishes like the 25th, I think, of November. Wow. Yeah, that is a long year. That is a lot of traveling. I don't know how you do it. Oh, it's like, it's not hard. I love every single second of it. Yeah. Not tired. Yeah. But it just drives me forward with it a little

bit. I definitely hit massive slumps with it and I do get tired. But this year, because it's been so back to back, there hasn't been a chance to settle. So I think for the last two and a half weeks, for the first time in a long time, I've stopped and I'm just suddenly aware that I am actually quite tired. So it's been nice to just to pause a little bit. Yeah, that's really nice. Well,

thank you for taking the time to join me for this exclusive interview. I'm going to call it an exclusive interview because I know you mentioned earlier when we were talking that no one has asked you to do an interview like this before, which is crazy to me because there's a lot I want to know. I'm sure there's a lot people out there want to know. So yeah, I'm excited to hear about this. I will genuinely thank you for having me because you are the first person to have asked me to do

something like this. And it's awesome because I don't know, it's just there's a lot to share and a lot to talk about. And I think there's a lot of talk that goes on outside of the IFSC. So it's hopefully I can give you some a couple of insights without revealing too much.

People love talking about you. So we'll see what we can learn. So yeah, since a lot of people probably don't know you aren't technically employed by the IFSC. What is your, I guess, like job title, technically? Sure. So yeah, I work for the IFSC, but I am a freelancer. So and I work with various different companies throughout the year. It's just the IFSC happens to be and now becoming my biggest sort of employer of the year. So I'm in quite a strange position because I'm

employed by them and I work very, very closely with the staff at the IFSC. But I'm not at the office. I'm not employed in a full term capacity by them. So I guess I'm in this unique position where I get to sometimes see what goes on and understand the story from various different sides because of that. But yes, I am a freelancer at heart. How much input do you get when it comes to IFSC, like broadcasting and just parts of your job of commentary? Sure. So it's sort of developing

and developed as it goes along. So originally when I was brought in, it was sort of on the back of Charlie Bosco. He's a very good friend of mine. And when he left, you know, it was sort of moving into that role for him. So it was the general commentating at the events. And then at every event we produced highlight reels and of both the qualifying and the finals. And we also produced various different media for different areas. So some of it goes on to TV channels, like we have a

show for Eurosport and a show for Fox Sports. So some of the extra content goes on that. And then some of it's like social media content goes on Facebook or Instagram. So and some of it's being held back, especially this year. So we have hopefully content to bring you in the off season as well as the on season because, you know, we want to try to keep that psych going. So yeah, so that's like, that's my basic. And my job within that is to obviously do the

commentating side of it. But as I've done the job for longer, and because of what I've done with Epic TV, I think naturally sort of moving more into helping to produce the videos and come up with sort of content ideas and ways that we can use the team on site and myself to make better videos and more content for people watching. So I think that that role has evolved a little bit as I've done the job. And, you know, now I work more closely with IFSC. So I do some of the edits for

them. With their bigger projects, there's something there was like an edit that dropped the other day on their YouTube channel about the universality athletes. So that was athletes from countries that are never really climbed at a World Cup level before there's Olympic money available to bring them into the World Cup circuit. So we followed like a mini documentary with those athletes. So I'm beginning to start working more closely with them to try to just bring more

content to the table. So it's changing as we move forward. That sounds like a super full time job. I don't know how you find time for the other I guess like freelance commentary gigs that you have going on. But yeah, so most people listening know this know you for your IFSC commentary.

And it's surely been a long journey for you to get to this point. So do you want to walk me through the points in your career that you think led you to this role? Sure. It's weird when you say career because it never really feels like a career. It just feels like, yeah, it is quite nice. But it's yeah, so originally, way back, I trained as an actor. So I

was trying to be an actor trying to be on stage and screen and stuff like that. And then I did try to do that for about eight years living in London, completely failed, never really made it past like the fringe stage of things. And then I sort of reassessed life, retrained as a journalist at Sheffield University, mainly because I was always jealous I didn't go to Sheffield University to climb. And I suddenly had this epitome where I was like, epiphany where I was like,

oh my goodness, I could go do a master's and still go climbing. Because if you don't know it, it's this place in the UK where the gritstone is, which is like single pitch, trad climbing. It's one of the best places in the UK to go climbing. So yeah, I went to university there, did a master's and then sort of fell into a fairly low scale job at Epic TV. I think my exact role was climbing researcher. Because at that point, Epic TV had lots of different channels, they had biking

channels and skiing channels. So my job was basically to do research for the person who was editing all of the climbing content. So I sort of bring him stories. But as I arrived, the editor left, and I happened to sort of be there as the only person. So I took over the editing side of things at the same time. So I suddenly started running social media accounts for Epic TV and things like that. Then gradually transitioned into the camera side, being on camera, because

that's really what I wanted to do. But I got given a different job, but really I wanted to be on camera. That's what I love to do. So yeah, I started presenting climbing daily and then took over the producing of it. So deciding alongside here, and it's got to be said, whatever I'm talking about, it's kind of hand in hand with Hugo Pilcher, who's been at Epic TV for a long time and

is a legend. He's been there forever. So the two of us, but I did the day to day running of climbing daily, finding the stories every day, working out what the shows was going to be, and then working with the editor to make sure that it came together every day. So yeah, so did that for a long time and that involves, and that involved started to involve filmmaking and more producing roles as well as the presenting. And then Charlie Bosco again, who basically gave me the job at

Epic TV or gave me the leg up for Epic TV. And then I remember talking to him one day and knowing that he was thinking about leaving the IFSC and he must've known that I was interested in it. And so I sort of like casually dropped it in at the pub. I was just like, so who's, you know, have they lined anyone up to take your role? And he was like, well, you should obviously do it. I was like, oh, okay. So he didn't give me the job, but he certainly gave me the contacts within the IFSC.

And I got put into the short list for the job after him. And then I got selected to do that and dropped into Munich for like the world championship event, having never done it really before. And it was a eight hour broadcast, but from then I sort of talked myself into it. And yeah, so far they haven't kicked me out yet. Awesome. Wow. Yeah, that's quite a journey. So you kind of started, well, I mean, you started as, I guess, like a trad climber.

Yeah. I mean, I started climbing indoors. There was a gym called Swiss cottage in London, and I had two things going for me. One that I had at that time when I started climbing, I had nothing else. I was selling perfume in Selfridges. So my job was to stand there with a perfume spraying bottle and spray customers. So like anything would have been better at that point. And I walked into this climbing wall and it was amazing. There was suddenly this community and these people who were

really willing to help me and to teach me things. And there were suddenly I had friends and it was like this whole, whole new world. And I started working for them. And yeah, and I was lucky because I had a car in London and that meant that I could drive people places. So people wanted to go. Exactly. And living in London, it's hard to get anywhere. So I would do the driving and they teach me how to try to climb. And that's how I sort of started into rock climbing. I see. So were you

a big fan of climbing competitions and IFSC before you started your role there? Yeah, it's a good question. From the moment I started Epic TV, it was like, I wanted to make it into like a more of a journalism and sort of storytelling world than it, because I had to try to, I wanted to move the show in different directions. And one of them was this sort of more serious look at news. So I think

I've always been in touch with the competition scene. And I remember we used to do the IFSC gave us permission to use their news cut footage and the footage that they send out to TV companies when they want to do like a highlight show. It's kind of like a, just a compression of what happened during the competition. And I remember re just plagiarizing Charlie Bosco's script. He used to write, putting it in my own words and releasing it as a news IFSC show on Epic TV. So I've always

been like in touch with that world. And some of the stories of the athletes that I wanted to tell sort of inevitably are entwined with that. So I was watching it before and I was in touch with it, but I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that I was someone who'd watch every single comp religiously, but I was aware of what was going on in the scene. Yeah. All right. Yeah. Let's get into the IFSC

commentary. I think a lot of people just have no idea what it looks like. I've only seen little glimpses of it here and there. I think I watched one of your like personal YouTube videos on your channel and saw a little glimpse into what the commentary box looks like. But I'm sure a lot of people haven't seen that. So can you give a description of what that looks like? Sure. Can I just ask you a big comp fan yourself? Like you, cause I've obviously seen like your podcasts and

clips of that, but like, do you watch it every time or what do you do? I do watch it every time. But I only started really watching it like a year or two ago. And I try not to watch older stuff because I don't want to know too much because then it makes it harder for me to ask questions

because I like know too much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. That makes sense. Sorry. I just wanted to, so yeah, the, the commentary box, the commentary box changes basically every event because for whatever reason, sometimes the commentary is the last thing that a lot of people think about, because really all you need to do that job is a table, two chairs and a TV screen and a sound mixing box. So, because it's fairly easy to set up, but, and they're right, you can do it anywhere.

And every event, it depends on who's running the events and which organizer there is and how big the venue is. Sometimes we'll be given a room or a place, which we can then set up and get everything ready on. But the team I work with now, they know that personally, I like to be able to see the stage. So I fight quite hard to be, to have the commentary box in the position where I can at least feel what's going on in the stadium or have an understanding of the audience's reaction.

Because when we do the commentary, even if I can see the wall perfectly, it's, you don't want to be looking at what's actually happening on the wall because what you guys and what other people watching are seeing is happening on the TV screen. And I'm not in charge of the camera angles. So if I'm looking at the wall and the TV monitor happens to be pointing at a bird and I'm talking about how amazing Serato is doing, it makes everyone look stupid. So you have to kind of like constantly

and what's going on. And also there's a delay in the action. So there's a delay. It's not much of a delay. It's like, I can't remember exactly half a second or something. But between those, obviously you've got to feed through all the systems. So again, if I'm looking up and someone tops out, although people might not notice it's, you know, it's just those little things we try to tighten

up. So, but I still like the commentary box somewhere. And often it's occasionally it's like in, in Jakarta a couple of years ago, it was underneath there, it was like, you know, a couple of years ago, it was underneath an umbrella covered in flies because it was lit up. So we need to be able to see notes. So we were just in this fly box. Sometimes like in Chamonix, we're right by the wall, which is incredible. Burn, we were in the middle of all

the action, but underneath in this plastic sort of box. So it meant that the audio was good, but we could sense the whole crowd, which was incredible. So it changes at every single event. We never know what we're going to walk into. And often it's different between the times we visit a stadium. So yeah, very different every time. Yeah. Do you have a favourite venue? I think I have favourite places for different things. Because I don't think any venue has it

all. And I think that one of the joys of doing the circuit is that you get to see sort of everything, you get to feel the ups and downs of certain places. I think if I was going to like, like the place I love going to the most is Japan. But then I find the comp atmosphere a bit subdued. So when you hit somewhere like Chamonix, you get this incredible atmosphere from the audience or Innsbruck. So, you know, atmosphere wise, there are certain places that do that very well.

But I think if I had to just choose to go to one, there was something very special about being in in Jakarta, right in the middle of these skyscrapers. And this was not the last World Cup, the one before. And it was the last comp of the season. And I just remember our very talented drone operating cameraman Erwan flying his drone on a sort of a big wide circling shot. And the walls were in the middle, it was all lit up with spotlight, you have these enormous buildings.

And I just remember looking at this shot thinking like that, that is the future of what we should be doing. And so I have like quite a special memory about that, that that location. That sounds nice. It was cool. So you are also the person who tells people to do replays,

or do you not have any part in that? Not really. So we've got and I think I should explain something right at the very beginning of kind of how this works, because I don't think people know, because there's no reason to so I might as well tell you how it works. So basically, every time, so we have a core media crew called Obsess Media. And they've been working, they started with Charlie back when he started and they've come through the last couple of years. And they're sort of a core

team. And they're very small, they can they do the graphics, they make sure all the broadcasts work. They make sure all the broadcasts work. And they liaise with the TV crew, because basically, there's two ways of doing comps. One is that the Obsess team, the IFSC team that they employ. So it's not again, it's a bit like me, they employ them as a freelance team. They run everything. So they provide the cameras, they do all the directing, they do all the

selection of shots, all the replays, everything. And that's a sort of totally in house event. And somewhere an example of that would be would be Chamonix this year. So that was entirely run by Obsess. But sometimes we go to a venue like in Innsbruck, where there's an exterior TV company who come in. So and that's not anything really to do with the IFSC. So the the organizers, say they want these people to come, they will arrive and then our media team's job is to sort

of liaise and do this middle job where we provide the graphics. But the exterior crew do the shots, they provide the cameras, they do the selection, they do the directing. Now, that's interesting because it's so for example, in Innsbruck, the director is a guy called Marcus, I think I've got that right, who I remember him doing a first event way back in the day. And you know, sometimes these people come in as sports directors, they don't know climbing, it might be the first time

they have ever seen climbing and they're trying to direct a climbing show. But this guy, for example, has done it for a couple of years, he did the Olympics, he did the European Games. And when I work with him, we have a very good rapport now. And I know he's always listening to me. So I he's,

he's got my back in terms of shot selection. But if he hears me bring something up or notice something, then he will sort of respond to that and put something or if I'm saying I don't know what's happening in this moment, he will show me a shot to demonstrate what I'm talking about. But this changes every event, sometimes I'll walk into a venue and the director has never seen climbing, it's kind of a bit on the fly. And and although there are guidelines, obviously, that

IFC provide, and we work closely to liaise between the two parties. It can change a lot. So it's one of the things that we sort of have to deal with when we're at these comps is sort of this side of things. And I think a lot of sports do it like this. But obviously climbing is growing, and it's becoming bigger and bigger, and the expectations are higher. So I think it's a learning process as

we sort of figure this out as we go through it. I can't remember your original question now. I've totally forgotten what you said. That's all right, me too. But that explains the camera angles. So you said you had to replace? No, basically, the short answer is no, I don't. We get shown the replays. The reason I went on that tirade, I remember now, is because it depends. So when we have our team, our obsessed team doing everything, again, they've done this for years, they know what

they're doing. And they're very good at choosing the right replay shots. Occasionally, we'll have a camera team who will choose a very weird replay shot. Usually, I can talk to them and ask them for stuff, but it depends if they're listening to me, or if they care, or if they've got the shot. So I never really know. Okay, perfect. That makes sense. There we go. Great. There we go. Okay.

And then for co commentators, do you have a hard time getting people in the commentary box? Or is it something that people are excited to do? Yeah. So when I started, again, it's, when I very first started, I had very few things on my sort of like responsibility list, it's got different, but one of them was fine co commentator. And Charlie sort of passed on some people that he had used in the past who he thought was good and enjoyed working with. But I knew that some of

this was like, you know, my time to try to try to find my own way through this. So, and one thing I was, you know, I was asked to, you know, that it was kind of up to me, but you know, we wanted, I'm obviously a guy, it's always nice to have, you know, a male female kind of commentating team. And that's something to think about. And that's something, you know, that I've always tried to think about whenever we're finding people is the sort of like, who's there and what they're

representing and how I can make that different and lots of events. So, yeah, when I first started, it was, it was sort of an unpaid role. It was like an opportunity for the athletes to come in. That's now changed. So the athletes are paid to do the job. And that obviously helps a little bit for me because I can now, because it was an awful job because you couldn't, I couldn't sort this

out, especially at the beginning, I couldn't sort this out before. So you have to wait for an athlete to not make it through to the next stage, time your approach and sort of be like, Hey, look, I'm really sorry, you know, but would you fancy doing this? And I, you know, always try to make it sound like a sort of an exciting thing to go and do, but the end of the day, you don't quite know the mood of the athletes. And I've definitely got it wrong in terms of asking at the wrong

moments. But luckily, as the years have progressed, and I've done this, you know, I've worked with the series of really good people who want to return. I've tried really hard, especially during the semi finals to always have wherever possible someone completely new, usually a young athlete, completely new, usually as young as possible, just because I think it's awesome to bring like

new perspectives into it. And I've tried to make it when I talk to the coaches, and I explained to them that like, if they have athletes who are interested in media side, you want to come on and do a bit more, you know, like I'm a fairly safe pair of hands to help them and bring them forward, especially if maybe they're a little bit shy, and they just need sort of bringing forward. So, so

over the years, I'm now in a position where people have started to approach me about it. And sometimes, rarely, but sometimes I'll fill up a comp before it starts, just an athlete being like, look, I'm not maybe feeling this one. If I don't make it through, can I do finals? And I'll be like, yeah, you know, like you're you're penciled in. And I try not to do like a favoritism thing. Like it's usually first come first serves and people who I know are good. Like I have a sort of like

core hub of people that I know would would be brilliant at every event. If one of them comes to me, usually it's theirs, because they've sort of earned it, I feel. And I feel like it's a loyalty thing as well that, you know, they've shown that they can do this job, they care about it. But whenever someone comes through fresh, it's so good. Because, you know, I'm sure people appreciate how exciting it is to have suddenly an athlete you maybe hadn't heard of giving these amazing insights

and being given a voice and you're like, wow, we never would have heard of this person. And I think that's really important to keep on doing. Yeah, I had no idea it was paid. No, that's interesting to know. And it's not always athletes, though, like you've had route setters on in the past, not very frequently. But yeah, route setters, they're in everyone always is like bring a route setter. If you if you knew how hard it is to get a route setter just to speak on camera, let alone

appear on a live broadcast, it's like, like, impossible. They're amazing people, but they do not want to talk about what they do. So this year, though, I found Cody, who, and I've got to be careful, because it's there's a whole thing about whose IFC route setters and not and who's so I'm not even going to touch that. But Cody works sometimes for the IFC and route setting capacity, and he was happy to come on. And it was really interesting to because I sometimes think that

there's like, there's obviously a lot of talk and a lot of criticism about various things. But I find often it's some of the criticism comes from a place of people not understanding. And when you get somebody there who can explain, so if you see something not work, if someone's there saying, Yeah, it didn't work. This is why it didn't work. Then people are less quick, I think, to judge or to, you know, they just take a moment. So I just I want to bring those kind of people in

just to give that idea. You know, when I brought Malik, the coach and I thought it was fascinating, because he talked about appeals all the time. And although that maybe wouldn't work in a finals, we're talking about semi finals here usually, when it's a bit more time for people to like sit in the sport and just learn a bit or enjoy different aspects of it. So I think that's really important

to do it. And it's I try to do it whenever possible. But people are less willing to come and speak to millions of people than you'd expect because it is millions of people who watch this. So it's a lot to ask. Yeah, I guess we're outsiders kind of prefer to be behind the scenes usually. Yeah, with what you mentioned about people not really understanding, and that's why they just like, are angry or just say things online. That's precisely why we wanted to have you on here today

so that you can explain yourself. I hope I don't mess it up. I mean, this is how I get fired from all jobs. I'll reveal the wrong thing and that'll be it. It's been good so far. So speaking of that,

what has been one of the most difficult parts of commentating for you? It's a really good question, actually. Because I think it sort of splits into two sides that that question because there's like, there's personally to me, and then there's sort of professionally

with the job. And if for me, if I don't like I don't like messing things up, I really hate messing things up, like, and I've obviously made mistakes with with what I've done sometimes, or I've said things that like, you know, you just you watch it back and forth, and you're like, oh, I'm

watching it back and you just think like, you know, why? Why? So that there's been lots and lots of tough moments like that, just when you, you know, you realize you make a mistake or, you know, Chamonix was was quite a good example this year, which is that we and you know, it's not a huge personal error that I made. But it's like something that I got a huge amount of criticism for, which is that we missed the clip from Sharon So she missed clips. Yeah.

And like, I can't tell you why we missed it. We missed it. We didn't see it was it wasn't just me. It was also the Italian team, apparently, who just didn't see it. But we for whatever reason, myself and to raise a we weren't either it was cropped out on our screen, which is a good excuse, but I don't think it was accurate. But we weren't looking at this exact example of what I was talking about earlier, which is look at the screen and for whatever reason we missed it.

And then we saw this replay that we were showing, which was kind of the wrong brief play of her moving past it. And I made this weird call where I was like, because I've seen ropes, people like that. I've seen ropes quick back into quick draws before I've seen it happen. Would it happen in that circumstance? Maybe not. But in that moment, you try to explain what happened if you didn't see it and you got shown the wrong replay. So occasionally, there's areas you make like that we wish you could

take back and that sucks from like a personal perspective. There's obviously been moments like I remember when the camera shots of Johanna was shown in Innsbruck, you know, the one that was kind of pretty inappropriate while she was brushing a boulder. In my mind, I see it was a long time ago, but it was certainly a moment where, and I don't really want to go into details, you got talked about a lot during the time, but I remember wishing that I had behaved differently

with my response in that moment. But remembering just being sort of very, A, it happened very quickly and B, just being a bit sort of lost with what to say. So I think you certainly learned from

experiences like that and that's been difficult. There's been really like bad conditions in terms of like everything's gone wrong technically and you're sort of struggling with it and you're sort of trying desperately to do the best job you can, but you're like fighting against no sound or, you know, something like that or rain or just something that makes the job harder, but you're still expected to get it out. So there's been loads of tough moments, but at no point has it

got tough to the point where I've wanted to stop doing it. It's the most incredible thing. So I can't really complain. It's awesome. And it's awesome. Do you actually watch back things that

you say? No. Okay. There's reasons for this. There's reasons for this. Number one is that, what I always do is I have a look at, I read the comments on YouTube. So I look at the YouTube comments for about a day and a half after the event ends and then I put it to bed. That's pretty long

actually. I figure that's enough time for everyone to say what they want to say because in my way to approach comments is that I got, I got, I got, I remember like I've been doing the Epic TV thing for long enough now that I'm, I've got a bit of a thick skin to it, but someone told me once that comment, and I don't know if it's the right approach, it's my approach, but someone was like that every comment, however badly they're written or how aggressive or nasty are they trying

to, is there something in there that they're trying to say that they have a point about? Because often the ones that hurt can be really aggressive or really just, you know, just someone shouting off their keyboard, but often they've got a point somewhere and they're the ones that hurt. And I think it's worthwhile, however badly they put it to take note of what they're saying and then make an assessment of whether you did do wrong or you did right or whether, you know,

what you did. So I have a look at them because I think it's worth it. And I spend a lot of time editing myself. So I do one of the shows for Fox Sports, like I edit that highlight reel. So that's 26 minutes of listening to my own voice again. I don't need to necessarily sit down and watch everything back. I feel like I have it coming at me enough times. But yeah, maybe I should, I don't know. Maybe it's something I should do to get better. No, I mean, that sounds like plenty.

I actually think that reading comments for a day and a half is really long. Really? When do you stop? Do you look at yours on your videos and things? I, okay, well, I don't really get that many comments. I would love for people to leave more comments, but there's not much- Leave comments if you're listening. Yeah, exactly. You don't get a lot of feedback on podcasts. So that's hard, but it also means- Instagram World, because you're in like that side of it.

Yeah. I read whatever comes in, because I mean, it's still fairly small. I don't get a lot of hate because I'm fairly small. I would love to keep it that way. But it also means I don't really get that much feedback. So if people want to provide feedback and it's mean, just send it privately. I don't really need to see it publicly. That would help.

Yeah. It sucks seeing you're like, especially the things you know you've got wrong, having them pointed out a hundred times in the comments, you're like, yeah, I know I said that name wrong. I bet. It must be difficult. Do you also read Reddit threads or other- No. And the reason I don't is because I know that there's quite a lot of stuff about me, in all honesty. I've heard. I remember once, so the time I decided never to look,

I got a message from UKC from, I don't know who it was, it was Alan at the time. And he messaged me because I work with UKC for various things. UKC is an online website, if anyone who doesn't know it. It's a big, big, big website. Anyway, the guy who managed it wrote to me, he just said something like, Matt, don't worry, I've removed the thread. And I just, oh God. So I just wrote back being like, I don't really want to know, but I have no idea what

threads you're talking about. And it was some kind of very horrible thing on their forum that they just thought actually really went too far. So they had my back and took it down, which was nice. But after I heard that, I didn't really feel the need to go looking. So, I feel like dealing, sometimes dealing with the feedback I do get from various platforms is enough, honestly, in terms of my mental health. So I don't really need to go searching for nasty things. If there

are nice things there, then that's cool. But I guess I don't really need that much of an inflated ego on knowing what they are. And I'll avoid the horrible things. Fair, fair. I think one- Why are they bad? You got to tell me now. I'm intrigued. Oh, I can't tell you now. What's the main like fundamental criticism? What am I doing wrong? Um, no, I think there have been posts where it's like, obviously, like the mistakes that you say,

people are going to harp on that. But then it's also like pretty decent because there's a lot of people in the comments who are like fighting for you as well. So yeah, it's not bad. It's not bad. No, thank you, people. I appreciate it. Whoever's fighting. Yeah. You're the one person. Thank you. Exactly. Yeah. But there is one fun thing that was on Reddit,

I think that was called MattGroomBingo. Oh, yeah? Have you seen that? No, I got to get someone to make me a t-shirt with things I say on it. Yeah. Which is really cool. Yeah. I kind of just want to go over these phrases. And if you have anything you want to say about them, just stop me. Please do. There's 16. So I'll go through all these pretty quickly. 16? Oh my god. It's bingo. So. Okay. First one, comments on the cinematography. Fanboys over a British athlete.

I just want to say cinematography. The reason I do that is because like, when I do that, our media crew, again, get a lot of criticism for shots and stuff. And like, they do do a really good job. And when I see something that I genuinely think is like an awesome shot, I will just say it because I don't know. I think it's cool. Anyway, that's it. Carry on. Okay. More of a boulder or lead specialist. Sticky Serato. Yeah. Plugs Paraclimbing.

She goes by Osh. Desperately wonders what's going on in isolation. I do. Always. I hope to get an athlete on to talk about that. Yeah. It's fascinating. I did one with Stasha about it. So I've kind of got a podcast thing maybe coming out and she was talking about that. And it's so interesting what happens. Oh man, I would love to have Stasha on. I'm so jealous. I'll put you in touch. I'm seeing her in a week.

Oh, please. That would be great. Please excuse this brief intermission, but I would just like to take some time and remind you that if you are enjoying this podcast, please follow and rate it on your preferred listening platform. If you're watching on YouTube, be sure to subscribe and hit the like button. Anything helps to push this podcast out to more people and get even more amazing guests on back to the show. Yeah. People love hearing from

her. Let's see. Being bewildered by people running up to a boulder. Yeah. Why do they do that? Is that for semis? I think. No. Like I'm thinking I'm talking about finals. They're like, it's their stage. They can do whatever they want. They wait in the wings and then they get called in and they run across stage and I don't understand why. I see. I think it must be a little awkward to just slowly walk up because people are hype. Yeah, but like, but I want to see the coaching

science is like, right, before you do this really strenuous activity, run to it. Like surely you want to like, I don't know. It must be kind of awkward. You would slowly walk. I think I'd be too afraid of being out of breath on the boulder. Like this is hard stuff. You know, it's like, I don't know. I think maybe they don't feel comfortable being in the spotlight, not climbing. Maybe, maybe, maybe. Maybe that's my.

Some don't. I think Shawna always used to walk out. I think she told me this. If I remember. She was like, yeah, she's like, I agree. I was, she was just like, I just took my time. I thought it was awesome. Yeah. I'll have to keep an eye on that. Let's see. Gets corrected by cohost kind of already went over that. Now, again, like, like sometimes it's worth remembering that I definitely, like, I think a

lot of people accuse me sometimes of being like, uh, like I have to, how do I explain this? That's I'm not going to do it. Like my, when I do the co the commentating thing, my job is to make that person feel like comfortable. And often they've never done it before. You got it, especially with the people I bring on for the semifinals. So one of the things I try to do is to sort of base what I'm saying and how I say it off them. So if I have someone, for example, who's like an expert,

a movement, someone like Shawna or someone like stash or, you know, and that's their thing. They like talking about movement. That is, that's an area I don't necessarily need to cover. So there's an element of that that I try to do. And I'm not saying it's playing dumb, but it's, it's sometimes playing dumb. And also just, I can be as technical as I need to be depending on who the

person is with me. So, and I quite like it when there's like a contradiction or something. And sometimes I will sort of provoke something from the athlete to try to get them to, to, to, to to, to explain it because it's better coming from them. So sometimes the athlete just corrects me for sure, because I get something wrong, we don't see something. And that's the whole dynamic. That's the reason there's two pairs of eyes on it. It's great. If they weren't doing that,

it would be awful. Imagine that they just sat there. It'd be terrible. But like, sometimes there's a bit of poking that goes on and I'm trying to get them to explain something or do something that explains an element of the sport where I feel like it'd be weird if I said it. So just to cover that. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense. Um, mixes up athlete names. Yeah. I guess it could be with pronunciation, but oh, actually, nevermind. That's another one pronounces a name wrong.

Yeah. Asks co-host to explain something. We also just went over that. There we go. Um, giggles at route setters descriptions. Wow. I didn't know I did that. I didn't either. I guess, yeah, I need to pay attention to that more. Maybe something you can keep in mind too, but I don't remember that happening. Um, plugs and athletes vlogs. That's fair. I think they work hard for it. Like any, like I really want to push them as much as possible.

So yeah, if they put the effort to do a YouTube channel, they should get a shout out. Yeah, absolutely. Um, comments on the mic set up on the wall. And she goes by Annie. That's all 16. That's all 16. Yeah. The reason I said that the anything is funny because I remember we were on a, so we're talking about Annie Sanders who is USA athlete, but they have an official name. And apparently I didn't know this. They can't really change it. So because it's something to

do with it's something to do with something. But so Annie is officially Anastasia and we can't take that off the system. But so we're on this, we went to Russia for the world youth championships and we were on a six hour train from me, from Moscow down to the middle of nowhere in Voronezh. And it was me and my colleague from the IFC, a photographer and like a hundred very young athletes

on a train being like teenagers. So it was like this total carnage thing. But in the midst of all this, I got a, a message from a family friend of Anastasia Sanders who just said like, really excited that you're going to be, you know, uh, talking about the team and Annie, just to let you know, she would like to be called Annie. So obviously when I heard that I like this, it was a family friend. So I didn't know. So I managed to get hold of Anastasia's mom, um, and checked with

her on Instagram. I think it was that I could call Annie, Annie, and this guy wasn't a made up friend. It was all legit, but, um, it's something the IFC wanted me to do because it was like an athlete's request. It still comes up as Anastasia Sanders on the screen and they just want me to clarify it. So I've started saying it and now I realize I say it so much, it's almost a thing. So I now don't say it as much as possible, uh, because it sounds weird. I mean, I think it makes sense just for like

new viewers who aren't familiar, but then you never know who's a new viewer. Like, and it's,

it's hard. And then if, you know, yeah, I guess that's kind of like the hard place that you're in because you sort of have to appease old viewers, but then also then like new viewers don't really understand what's going on maybe. So yeah, I guess like, how do you deal with that? And are these like grab bag of facts that you default to? Um, are you just like trying to fill time or is there a specific reason for it? Um, when I started, uh, I was specifically asked to, to think of it as

bringing new people on. So, because we were in this transition phase, it was, it wasn't Euro sport yet, but then we were certainly like, that was where we, I think the thinking was going towards. And we knew it was going to be, you know, just had the Olympics and it was, had a huge influx of people watching. And certainly I was briefed to, to really bring new people into the sport,

but I don't think I did it very well, especially in my first year. And I certainly got a lot of feedback from climbers who were like really nice and really understanding, but we're just like, it's kind of annoying because you, the way you're saying it. So I changed the way I tried to do it. Um, after I sort of got that feedback because I wasn't hitting the middle ground well enough. I wasn't, I was just being a bit basic with it. So what I now try to do is it depends on the event.

If it's something like an event that I know is going to be televised, so on the BBC, so something like, uh, like the world championships or a European, you know, event like that, then I will

be a little bit more detailed about the rules, especially at the beginning. Um, sometimes I just forget and I watch a climbing competition and I've realized I haven't said any of the rules have got swept up in it, but yeah, I do try to bring things out and if an athlete does something that I feel like if I was watching the sport for the first time, I wouldn't understand,

then I'll explain it as a rule. An example of that is the quick draws. So there's a thing athletes sometimes do, which is they hold the quick draw and then not hold it, but they grab it and kick it or they hit it to make it swing so they can easily clip it. So I'm not going to be a fan of it, but if you're a new viewer and you're watching the athlete just use the hold and you see what you think is an athlete grabbing something and then it looks weird, it doesn't make any sense.

So if something like that happens, I'll say, you know, they can do that. They're not allowed to wait the correct draw, but they can, you know, hit it or touch it or move it. So I tried to sort of put some rules in when you see something happening. Um, but yeah, I don't know. I don't know if I get it right. And I think it's something I'm adapting to and, and, and will change because if climbing goes the way we hope it does, then you know, more and more people will understand the sport and

hopefully the graphics will be clearer and everything will start to make more sense. And my job won't be so much to explain, but just to, for everyone to enjoy what happens. How often do you just find that you have nothing to say? Very rarely. Um, like, I don't know, I can always talk about something like it's, it's, there are times when I lose my energy to do it. And that's sort of, if I'm, certainly the podium process is still something that's ongoing in terms of trying to make it

faster and smoother. And all the TV channels tend to either have an advert break or go away for the podiums. Um, so that's a period of time sometimes where, cause I send the athlete away, I think it's kind of unfair to get them to talk through what could be an eternity,

an eternity of waiting for a podium to show up. So whenever they do the interview, I say, look, just take your stuff and go, because it's different if there's a big event or there's a reason they want to come back or, you know, if they want to, it's up to them, but usually I,

they go and that's it. So there's certainly times during waiting for podiums where I, nowadays I sort of just have a moment, cause I know it's only YouTube watching really, where I, you know, if it's just me talking about the weather, it's boring as anything. But, uh, but no, generally I can talk forever. That's, that's the one thing I can do. Okay. I mean, that's good. I think that's kind of what's needed for the, for the job. Yeah. I think I'd fail utterly if I didn't.

Yeah. Um, and so in terms of general IFSC things, what are some things that you think the IFSC are doing right and wrong?

I think it's a difficult time at the moment. And the reason it's a difficult time is because you know, our sport has changed a huge amount and coming into the Olympics, it, it's not just one thing that has to alter, you know, the whole sport has to rearrange itself, not only to come sort of in line with various guidelines that you're then, you then have to follow, but you know, there's an awful lot more sort of attention and, and just pure work that goes into it, but it's not like

a whole bunch of money just sort of turns up on the doorstep. So, so for example, I learned this the other day, and if I'm wrong about this, it was my, someone else who told me this, but a colleague of mine who told me this, but for the first couple of years from a sport hitting the Olympics, that, that federation won't get any TV money from the sports. It's only when it's kind of confirmed.

So if you think about how important, so that means that the decision to put it into LA 28 is hugely important because we will start getting TV rights and I don't know exactly when, but they will start to come in soon. So we're in this process where the sport aspires to be big time and we have the athletes and the stars who are there, but we've in this process where we're moving it from a fairly low level sport, you know, in terms of, of, I mean, it is in terms of what it used to be.

It's got all this popularity and it's starting to grow, but that, that's the, that's the thing. But that transition process takes a lot of learning, a lot of manpower, a lot of resources. And the IFSC is, is a very small team that have had to expand very, very quickly. So there's that as a sort of restraint to them because although I'm a freelancer with those guys, I do get to spend

a lot of time with them. And I see them as people as well as just this federation. And I think whenever you have an umbrella thing like the IFSC or, you know, it's very easy to, to forget that there's people behind that name who were, you know, like I've been on planes with people who have, you know, been delayed and miss seeing their kids and won't be home to see them for weeks. You know, this is, this is like real people working very, very, very hard within certain restrictions and

not everyone gets it right all the time. And the IFSC doesn't get it right all the time. But, and, you know, I think there's certainly things that could be communicated better because, you know, for example, when I talked to the beginning about the, the universality program, the edit we put together, you know, I could see from your face, you hadn't heard of it before. And this is a really good like initiative that the IFSC is doing that isn't being

shown enough. And there are lots of things that go on either sort of underground politically or behind the scenes that are a federation punching like way above its weight for what it's trying to

do. But it does make mistakes. And I do think communication is one of those things. You know, I still think we, I mean, from my side, you know, I'm the content side, I'm the video side, I would like to expand that and bring people who are watching, you know, I think if you ask people to pay for a service, then you need to give them a lot back if they, you know, and if you take Formula One as a model, you know, you have to pay for that. And yet there's so much content on their

YouTube channels and things to get your teeth into. So obviously, I would love to do more things with that with the IFSC. And I think we could do better like that. But there's a lot of money needed in lots of different aspects of our sports. And everything needs attention right now, because it's, it's, there's a ticking clock on everything because the next Olympics is coming and, you know, it's we have to be ready. So I think it's a good thing that we're doing this.

So I think with the things they don't do right, I'm hoping that people learn from that and progress and keep communicating and keep talking. And I think in a couple of years when the ship sort of steadies itself, we're going to have a really special thing come out of this. But it just needs a bit of patience while we sort of navigate these waters at the moment. And that's from everyone. I think that's from athletes, from TV companies, from everyone who's involved this. We'll get there,

be patient. Yeah, money is one of the hard parts. You were saying that funding doesn't come in until 2028 for LA? No, no, and don't quote me on that. Like, what I'm saying is the first times you're in the Olympics is like a preliminary sport, you don't have access to TV rights, is when you have the full when you're in the Olympics, like we are now as like a member, then you get access to this sort of TV money. So and that hasn't just sort of arrived the second we went into Tokyo. So

in terms of resources, I think people think there are more resources there than there are. And it's still a sport where we have really, really fine margins and running these events is incredibly expensive. You know, send the millionaires to sponsor these events, please. Yeah. If I meet any, I'll let you guys know. Please do. And so one of the difficult things that happened this year

that I'm sure a lot of people want to know about is the whole Red S situation. The commentary box hot mic incident is I think what kind of kicked off the whole discussion. What are your thoughts about, I guess, what happened there and your stance on the topic? Yeah, I'm totally happy to say what happened as well, because it's it's there was no kind of secret to it. So and so the hot mic thing, so generally, so we are. So we have microphones in the commentary box. And obviously,

there's an on air button and an off air button. And with that one, it was an exterior TV company, and they'd inadvertently had us on air, but they hadn't been streaming our signal. And then someone pressed a button and streamed a couple of seconds of the signal. Now, I understand about hot mics, and it's something I'm quite careful about. But it's hard, because sometimes athletes in the box with you for maybe like 15 minutes before it starts, and you're going to have a conversation

about stuff. But I'm quite aware that sometimes it goes wrong. And yeah, the Alana thing. So with Alana, basically, we'd actually been talking about the fact that she was retiring, because no one really knew. And she'd said to me before Innsbruck that she wanted to do the comp sheet, the commentating one that that finals because it was be her last event, and she wanted to announce it. And it was like, this whole thing, and I was aware that it was happening, but no one else knew. And

you know, so it was mainly discussing that. And Alana is very, very good at commentating, and certainly, I think has a future when she stops Olympic qualifying, hopefully Olympic competing. You know, she's got a future in that. But one of the things she was talking about was she wanted to talk about the Red S issue. And she was asking me to sort of I said, Is there anything you want to it started with me saying, Is there anything apart from your retirement that you don't want me to say

or that you want to cover when we talk about the fact that you're moving away from the sport? And she said, I'd like to talk about the issue of Red S and what the IFC is doing. And what I said was, okay, the exact words, I played it in my head a million times, because I knew this would happen one day. I said, I said, Okay, obviously, do what you want. It might not be the best time for it now. And then and that there was a section in the middle of all that that got caught

on the hot mic before the guy turned it off. And I finished the sentence, which wasn't called by saying, you know, might not be the best time to do it on air like right now. But if you want to do it, I'm not going to stop you because I'm not you know, at the end of the day, I'm asked to it's difficult, like I work for the IFC more than the athletes do. But I and I'm certainly asked, I would never touch topics like that. It's not my role. But I also I'm not going to stop an athlete

if they have something to say. But at the same time, it's you know, we it's run like a professional commentating team, and it has to have that different angle. So I was happy with Alana to say what she wanted to say, my my concern was that the conversation would become entirely about

that thing on a night where she's trying to talk about other things. And also that she couldn't necessarily express what she wanted to express in what would have to be about a sentence to fill the time between the video finishing and the first set of things coming on screen that we have to talk about. So and I knew that if she said something, it would be very quick, and she would feel a little bit perhaps unfulfilled about it. But it was up to her. And I genuinely didn't know

whether we when we started speaking, whether she would bring it up or not. And if she brought it up, I was going to let her have her moment and say what she wanted to say and then move on in terms of like, I wasn't going to get into the discussion. But it was she can say what she wanted to do. She decided not to and then later put out the statement and then said what she wanted to do.

And I talked to her about it. I talked to her about that have been caught that we took it off because it was like, I just very strongly believe that it was it was such an important thing that she wanted to say that it needed to have the full impact of how she wanted to say it in the way that she wanted to do it. And I'm glad that she did it that way, because I think then the conversation could develop. That's what I think anyway. And then how I personally feel about it. I mean,

it's honestly it's it's not something I'm going to talk about. And the reasons I'm not going to talk about it is a couple. Number one is that it's very, very complicated. And it's it doesn't necessarily look like it is from from an outsider's perspective sometimes because it seems like very cut and dry. And it is I think if if there's something that the IFC they say they are doing, they should follow that as a standard. And I'm not really privy to whether they have or haven't

done that. It's not part of my job role. And I'm not involved in those conversations. But I am aware of how complicated it is because it's it reaches deep into the sport. We're talking about it's a responsibility of federations as well as the IFC. You know, it's a lot of people and there's a lot of there's a lot of views about it. So it's very complicated. And I'm not an expert on it. And I don't feel like I can necessarily weigh in on it like that. The second reason is

because I don't want to speak for people. They do it better than I do on this issue. But also, like, my role is to commentate on every single athlete who makes it through to the next round. Now, there are likely to be athletes who appear that I talk about that I want to do the same kind of job that I would do talking about them as I would do talking about anyone. And if I'm talking about I think it's difficult for me to discuss an issue like that without

people thinking about athletes names or who I might be talking about. And I am always going to try to help that athlete up the wall, even though they can't hear me with what I'm saying, like I care about them succeeding. And I think it would be weird if I chipped into a discussion when my job is to talk about those athletes. So for that reason, I sort of stay away from it. And I hope that everyone keeps working towards a solution for this because I think it's

a thing is quite unique to climbing. And I think it's obviously very important and it needs to be dealt with properly. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, thank you for the insight. I think that helps a lot. I had no idea about what happened after the fact of the hot mic incident. So that's really interesting to know. I don't I can't say I was like devastated. It's the worst conversation I was like devastated. It's the worst thing because I felt professionally really

silly about it because like I know about hot mics is not the athletes job to think about that. It's my job to think about that. But like she literally said it about 10 seconds before we started talking as well. Like it was like as the music started to roll up, she said this thing and I had like, like 20 seconds to try to respond. But I'm annoyed it got caught because I didn't want it to become about a hot mic thing. I wanted it to become about what Alana wanted to say. So I was disappointed

that it started off that way. But I think to Alana's credit, an enormous credit, the way that she sort of didn't sort of try to cover up the fact that we had this hot mic and we'd have a private conversation, but she just rolled with it and said what she wanted to say and just didn't make it about that. And I just I think it was just an incredible way of her getting her opinion across.

And I think not that it was like a good thing that it happened, but it definitely brought a lot more eyes to the issue and probably helped her platform and get just getting people to wonder what it was about. Yeah, I think so. But yeah, I think that is everything I wanted to cover about IFSC. Is there anything else you wanted to mention about IFSC before we move on? I don't think so. I think it's just like, it's a funny one because I swing from, you know, I work in it and I share frustrations

as much as anyone does. And I'm very, very bad at just sitting back and like, I always want to like push things. So, you know, I share people's frustrations. And you know, there's so if you think though, like how much good the like those events do, because it's very easy to sometimes get caught. I mean, how many do we have this year? Like must be 15 plus. Like, you know, it's been viewed by millions and millions of people. You know, we've had some of the most wonderful,

sporty moments I've ever seen. And you know, this is a competition that for very little money, or if you use a VPN, no money, you can watch, you know, and just experience. And it's really special.

I just want to say thank you to everyone who worked so hard for it, because there is there is so much that goes on behind the scenes and people doing crazy hours, you know, from route setters, who are your route setters who will be there all night, all morning bleeding tips, and then will get castigated for something, you know, that went slightly wrong or, you know, or like amazing, like watching Paraclimbers just to the best people like I do props of Paraclimbers like like the 16

thing because they are amazing. You know, it's a wonderful sport. So thank you to everyone who makes it what it is and for doing everything to make it special. So yeah, I FSC is not the only thing that you do. What I guess, give a brief description of what other work you do outside of I FSC commentary, whether it's like other commentary or your epic TV work. Sure. So the answer is I'm in a bit of a changing time at the moment. So for a very long time, I was employed by epic TV pretty

much full time, although technically I was a freelancer for them. I don't like contracts.

But so I worked as a freelancer, but full time for them for a long, long time. That was the only thing I did. And that was the only avenue I had. And yeah, gradually, I've started to sort of develop a little bit. And the one amazing thing about epic TV is certainly at the beginning, when I was working there, if you had an idea and you wanted to do something about it, they'd let you do it. So they, you know, I started editing and I started filming and producing and directing

shoots. And, and, you know, there's a lot of stuff that's on climbing daily that I film or I've edited. So I did like, for years, I was doing two, two of the shows out of the five were my edits.

So there was, so I started moving as well as just being the guy who talked about it, there'd be, there's a, there's a lot of like product marketing, working with brands, you know, like trying to work out some, you know, brand comes to you with a shoe and they're like, we have this shoe, we want a video, you have to work out how to do the video that you're, you know, you're trying to advertise

something, but make it so exciting. And there's lots of work like that. So yeah, I've started to, in the last, last couple of years, I've started to, I guess, move away from epic TV into more different companies. So I have the IFC, I've got epic TV. I've started writing for various people. So I write for UKC. And then sort of next year, there's a few things. So it's, people don't really know this actually. So you'll be the first to know it, but it will be, I'm going to be doing the

UIA ice climbing next year. So I'll be doing the world cup commentary for that, which is, which is, it's cool. Like, and hopefully what's going to happen is people will hopefully come with me a little bit. Trust me that this sport is good because it is, it's like climbing, but with like deadly weapons attached to your hand. It's like utterly terrifying. Like it's like something you've never seen. And it goes up the inside of like a car parking lots

in South Fay will be in Korea. It's, it's a spectacle of a sport. So I'll be doing that next year. Hopefully something in summer will come through and I'll be speaking on various platforms for that when that happens. And then, and then hopefully I haven't been contracted, but hopefully IFC next year as well. Epic TV work will sort of step back a little bit. I think it's, I've been doing less and less with them. And then really it was only down to a couple of shoots. And then I

did the gear shows for them. And I think, I think I'll probably stop doing that pretty soon and just occasionally do sort of hopefully some bigger projects with them. So occasionally appearing on camera maybe, but more sort of producing work and perhaps doing some filming projects with them, but on a much looser basis. So sort of Epic TV. And it's sad to say goodbye, because it's been a long time I've been there, but it's, it's probably time to step away from that a little bit and do

something different. And then, yeah, there's quite a big thing, hopefully happening in March, which is, and again, I'm not going to say exactly what it is, because not a hundred percent, but hopefully in the buildup to March, you'll find out about it because there is something that I went to do with a bunch of amazing people telling a story that has, it was, it was two weeks of the most insane journey I've ever been on into a very, very dangerous place and very sad place to be

right now. So that will be coming hopefully fingers crossed in March 2024. So yeah, there's a few things, hopefully for next year, but yeah, that's, that's what I do outside of, of the talking bit. Exciting. People are going to be very upset that you can't talk about what's going on in March, though. I think people can guess. Like if you, if you, if you follow me on any platforms and you've, you've read various things, you look back at my Instagram, you'll know it's, it's, it's, yeah,

I'm not, I'm not going to say anything else, but it's from what I've seen, it's likely to happen. And, and it's, it's going to be a step forward in me in terms of my filmmaking and some of the stories I try to tell. And it's a side that I love to do. And I really hope that people enjoy it. A plug to look through all of your socials. Exactly. Is, would you say that's like

the proudest thing that you've worked on, or is there anything else in your career again, that you're, that you feel like you're most excited about? There's been some amazing moments along the way that have just, and in every company that I've worked for, I've had these moments, you know, there's been climbing daily shoots where I've been working with athletes who are my heroes and I'll sort of catch myself. We did a very, I think we did quite, I think one thing Epic TV has done pretty well over

the years is sort of try to evolve. And we've done a lot of things with climbing daily that was new. And I think people tend to forget Epic TV was the original YouTube channel before everyone had a YouTube channel. We were there and we sort of moved it from five minute shows, or it would just be like a social media grab gossip into mini documentaries. And, you know, I remember, I'll tell you one thing actually that I was proud of was that when,

and what am I proud of most of? There's been moments where I've had people who I respect a lot say like they enjoyed something. And it might be like, I remember the gentleman who was head of the British Mountain Guide Association, Graham Ettel, I knew him before I started the job and he's this very Scottish, very brusque mountain guide. And I remembered wanting to be an alpinist

and respecting the heck out of this guy. And then I started the climbing daily job and I remember doing various things, but I came back and I saw him, I happened to see him, he came up to me. Then, you know, this is me moving from, he knew me as this squirt little guy trying to climb into like this person who's a gatekeeper for climbing stories. And he just came up and was just nodded to me and was like, yeah, you know, I don't remember exactly what he said, but he said he

really enjoyed it. And I just remember being like, wow, that's like a proper climber watching my videos. And, you know, whenever anyone comes up to me and they just say like, thank you, or like, I enjoy this, you suddenly realize that you touch people with it. And that's been a really, it keeps me going, honestly, that's really, really special to find that.

And then I don't know with the commentating, I think, I think in this pre, it's a hint, it even more the most amazing moment I've had of watching so far has been watching Daniel Boldyrev win the European speed championships in Munich in the summer. So not the summer, summer before, it was this massive event right in the middle of Munich. And this was, you know, this was, you know, as the war was kind of all kicking around and, and, and Daniel won this

competition. And I remember forgetting he's a Ukraine athlete. And I remember forgetting that he was Ukraine, not even considering that he was Ukrainian until he won, he topped out. And he came down and he reclimbed the wall. And he celebrated in the top and he came down, he had a flag. And it was at this moment on air, I sort of realized the significance of what he'd done, because he just won the biggest competition of the year for Ukraine in Munich. And I remember just realizing

that I was going to cry. And that all I was desperately trying to do was like push down on that feeling, because I knew that if I cried, anyone listening isn't going to be affected by it. They're just going to hear me crying. They don't want to hear that. So I was shoving this emotion down, like pushing it, pushing it down. But it was, I'm choking up even speaking about it, because it was just, it was this moment where like, it didn't matter about the sport,

but what he was saying on stage, it was the most powerful statement I've ever seen. And I, I was proud of holding it together until the end of that. And I just remember sitting in that empty stadium and, and when everyone had left and I couldn't leave, I remember I had to do a link for Epic TV and I had to do it like six times. And I just remember being proud to get to a position where I was allowed to speak about the most incredible, talented people. And that's such a

privilege. And I'm proud of myself. I've got myself to that position where I get to experience it, because it's amazing. Wow. Yeah. That's really meaningful. Is it, is there a video on that somewhere? I'd love to link it. You can watch it. You have to VPN it. It's like the, I'll send you a link if you want after this, but it's, you have to, you might be able to get it in the States. Well, I'll send it to you. But yeah, it's European Championship and it's in Munich. It's the speed

finals for the men. That's, that's incredible. Yeah. I'll link it below. So yeah, I guess that's not an IFSC broadcast. Are there any other competitions that you love commentating for? Oh, like outside. Yeah. Whenever there's a, whenever there's an exterior, I'm still amazed people ask me to do it, honestly. And like, it's incredible. Like I'll get a message from someone, I'll be like, really? Like you want me to commentate your, like, it's awesome. They're a lot more fun

because I feel like with the IFSC, I have to be quite well behaved. Because, you know, it's all it's all Eurosport and stuff. Like I have to be well behaved. Whereas for more domestic comps, although I try to still be as professional as I'd hoped to be on a normal broadcast, you can definitely have a different style of it. So I love doing them because they're just fun.

That's my favorite. I had a great time at Doc Masters. I can't go back this year. They asked me to go, but I can't cause I've got ice climbing stuff, but that was a fun one in, uh, Ooh, some Utrecht near Amsterdam. That was cool. I just came back from Israel for the Golden Holds comp and, uh, that is, and I'd in no way trying to make this political because I've had the feedback from people about that, but whatever, and obviously the situation recently, I mean, I

flew out a day, day and a half before it all started. So it's something that's kind of touched me personally quite recently, but that is a, uh, an amazing comp to be part of. It's just, uh, they look after the athletes beautifully and it's, um, it's a good one to be part of. So they're fun. All the exterior ones are fun. They're great. They're just, uh, they're pure and that's good. What's your, what's your favorite this year? What did you enjoy? Oh, like non-IFSC competitions?

I don't know. What, like IFC was, is there a moment for you? Ooh, they all kind of blend together a little bit. Um, I'm trying to think if there's any. It's hard to remember specific moments, isn't it? Like when you think about it, it's all just that season. Yeah. I feel like there were a lot of moments I saw where, like, Brooke surprised me a lot, um, in bouldering. Um, I remember like the moment where Toby won gold in bouldering. Oh yeah. That was a good one. Yeah. Um, outside of that.

That was the Toby moment was I think probably one of the best. It's got to be top three of the season.

Yeah. I just, I worry about mentioning it because it's going to play into that. You fanboying over British climbers. Yeah. I think this is unfair, right? Okay. That's seriously, I think this is unfair because number one, like, how do I think about this? People do say this, but I'm like, I swear I'm more enthusiastic about everyone apart from the British guys because I try not to be because like, in all honesty, people, I live in France. I've lived in France for like 10 years.

I'm very removed from the British bouldering scene. There are some athletes that I find really interesting within the British team. And like Molly obviously is someone who's just so talented, both as a climber and as you know, a co-commentator and, and as a person, she's just wicked. And I would have the same enthusiasm for Molly, whether she was British or like Austrian. So like, I think

sometimes people see that as a different way, but like, I don't know. I think inevitably I must do it because I am British and for sure, but like someone like Toby, I don't see how people can't cheer him on. Like, I mean, the man uses his face for God's sake. Like, I don't know. I'm being enthusiastic because it's awesome what he's doing. Like, I don't know. But yes, I'll try to avoid the bias from it. I mean, it's unfair to like everyone. You can't avoid it. You can't avoid it. I could

try though. I'll be better. Are there like other, you said that was one of your top three moments. Do you have other moments in mind? Sorry, just actually one, I've got one more defense thing to say, right? I'll be thinking about this. You got to remember. So for Eurosport, for a lot of countries, they have their own commentary team in their language. So throughout the whole world, there are different Eurosport teams. I'm the only one at the events and I'm like the international one,

but there's certain countries where you can't select English commentary. So if you're in Germany, for example, you can't select English commentary on Eurosport. And I do think because of that, I might be allowed a slight bias. And that's because like, imagine if you're watching like, like in the Olympics, for example, you, if you watch British commentating on a British TV channel, there's always a little bit of it. Like if you watch a world cup and it's England playing and

you've got English commentary. So maybe I'm allowed it. I don't know. We'll have to let, people can tell me if I'm allowed to do it because of that. I mean, I guess, yeah, I, I didn't know that there was like, are you saying there's like separate commentary in each language? Yeah. Yeah. And so there's a, not in obviously every single country, but there's a lot of countries with their own commentary team and they have, so what happens with them is they have

our feed sent through to them. So they'll be sitting in a room in a, in a Eurosport studio, somewhere in the country they're broadcasting from, and they'll get all their information just from the screen. So yeah, so that comes through, but also what people don't know is that we, so Eurosport talk to us all, the entire commentary team at the same time. And there's various points during a broadcast where there'll be advert breaks or there'll be something called,

this is just a bit geeky knowledge for anyone to know. There'll be sort of like breaks and those, and they're called editing breaks. And that's because at certain points, people who are directing it want clean audio. So they want everyone around the world at the same time to stop talking. So the way they do that is they pick a moment where they hope it's not going to be too busy. And then they count us down from five seconds. So, and this comes fairly randomly in your

ears. So you can be talking like we are now. And suddenly someone will tell you that in five seconds, you have to stop talking for about five seconds. So that's where we're at. Five seconds. So you have to like stop, bring your sentence to a close pause, and then pick it up and make it sound natural. But everyone around the world in the commentary teams is doing this. So this is what I mean when I say there's lots of levels to this. It's,

it's really complicated and there's an awful lot going on. Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. That's a lot to think about. Just something I have no idea about that would be really hard for me to do as just like a person who is talking right now and trying to make a podcast, but has no experience. Well, there's not just, so there's Eurosport in one ear, there's a director from the TV crew in the other ear. You're trying to listen to the co-commentator and have a conversation as well

as watching the screen to try to work out what's going on. You've got to read stats that are coming up because no one feeds the stats. We have to find, we have systems, we have to find it. And then now we have a new system for judging where we get a group sent where they tell us if there's appeals. So we have, so the incident like in Chamonix won't happen again because we actually

know what happened. So there is a lot that goes on. And I think when people are screaming at the screens, perhaps when we miss something, again, it's that thing where we're trying to be, we're punching above our weight. We're trying to be a sport that is, has all these things and we're still building towards it. And you know, we, everyone is trying to do the best possible job to try to give you guys the action because no one

wants to do it badly. None of the route setters want to set a route that's impossible or bolder that can't be climbed. The judges don't want to make mistakes. The athletes don't want to fall off the wall and we don't want to miss names and miss things. And you know, everyone is trying. And I do think we usually do a pretty good job. And you know, it's pretty cool to watch people coming along with us and also so many new people come to the sport. It's incredible.

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot going on. Distractions are everywhere. I literally just like saw a window open behind you and I'm still thinking about it. Is it? No, it was just like an automatic system. It was like a minute ago and I'm still thinking about it and then I'm so distracted by it. So

I've got a long way to go, but that's fine. But okay. So outside of working, because we've been talking a lot about you working, what are your own climbing goals? How long have you been climbing? Yeah. So I'm 37 now and I started climbing when I was about 25 or 26, I think. Pretty late. Yeah, it was pretty late. I'd always done sport, but climbing was new. I don't know. It's a funny one with me because I, especially this year, it's been such a

crazy schedule that there just hasn't been the time to regularly train for me. And I really tried to fight it at the beginning of the season in terms of like squeezing visits to the gym. And I did better this year, but sometimes we're just in the middle of nowhere and, or like it's hard because when the athletes go to these events, their whole job is to stay fit. So they'll arrive and their schedule is busy, but they'll have time where it's like, okay, this is gym time and they'll

travel an hour to go to a gym, whereas I can't do that necessarily. So it's quite hard during the season to keep fit, I found. I run, but this year for sure, it just like the last month, September, I think I was working every single day and I just didn't, there was no time for gym. So for me, it kind of, it tends to get quite strong over winter and then I hit summer all blazing and then have

this season that crops up and then it drops off a cliff. And I think one thing I'm trying to do is maybe just row back on the work side a little bit and have a bit of a life, which would be nice. So I haven't got a rock climbing goal at the moment. Like I did, I bolded 8A almost a year ago to the date and that was my goal. And I was always been to do an 8A boulder. Like I always thought that was like outrageously ridiculously impossible. And yeah, there's only one, but hey,

it's done. It's probably soft for everyone saying. You've got to pick a soft one for your first anyway. Like you can't climb the first grid. This is my excuses rolling out. Yeah. But no, that was cool. But I haven't really got one right now. Like it'd be nice. I've started training again recently. Like I think I've done seven days in a trot now and like back to climbing fairly hard again. But I don't know. We'll see. But I have time off coming. So hopefully I can

get out on the rock and do something. Yeah. Do you ever get a chance to climb with any of the athletes? Sometimes. I think sometimes like at an event, it's a weird one because they have a very different schedule from me. And it's a weird one to answer because I, I'm, it's not like I'm always sort of hanging out with the athletes necessarily, because again, it's this, I feel like maybe I need to sometimes keep a bit of distance because again, it's that thing where I talk about them for a

living. And if they're all my best friends and I'm sort of like it, I think it would be a bit of a weird dynamic. So I step back a little bit from it. I don't try to get too involved. I'm not trying to get in on personal climbing trips and stuff like that. Um, but having said that there are athletes like I do climb with and really enjoy it. And, uh, you know, they're a lot, a lot better than me. And that's also worth remembering. Like, you know, they're really good. They're really good.

So it's not like, you know, you go for a session and then you can keep up. It's like, shut you down pretty quick. But, uh, yeah, you know, it's, it's fun sometimes to get

remembered how bad you are. I can only imagine. Um, do you ever participate in competitions yourself? I've never done a client, a rock client or like a plastic climbing comp. I once entered the, yeah, I once entered the European ice climbing championships as the only representative of great Britain, because we were there filming for Epic TV and we'd, we'd had, we were in the gym getting ready for the comp. Like they had a party in the gym

to like celebrate everyone coming in. And, uh, I definitely had at least two, too many beers. And then I found out that theoretically I could enter this competition. And then I thought it would just be the best video for Epic TV ever. So I sort of made this decision. I remember going to Hugo and being like, I can enter. And he was like, what? It was like, I was like, I can enter the competition. I'm going to enter and then we can film it. And I just remember then just being

so scared about that because I, I, I've dry tooled a bit and you vaguely what I was doing. But like, again, it's like, I'm, I don't, but I didn't come last. And I was, I was super happy about that, but that's the only competition I've ever entered was that one. Geez. You should do more. I think that would be a lot of fun. No, there's so much better than me. Like, well, not like a, not like an international event, like a local one or.

It doesn't, honestly, it doesn't really do it for me. Like I like, I like, I like an audience when I climb. I like if, if people are watching, I definitely climb harder, but I just don't, I don't think I'm any good, honestly. And I just think I get shut down and I don't see the appeal of doing, I don't know, maybe it's weird. I think I just, I'd want to do quite well in it.

And I don't think I would do very well in it. And I think that almost puts me off entering because I don't think I could be happy with just like having a great day, trying a bunch of Qualley boulders and coming 50th. I think I'd, I'm, I'm competitive. So I think that's why I haven't done it. It would be really interesting to see you do one and do well. I mean, I'm sure, at like a local competition or I don't know, maybe like British competition.

Maybe someone could invite me as like a sort of veteran category. That would be a lot of fun. I would recommend it for you. One day, we'll see. All right. So I think that's all I had. We have a few more Discord questions that we'll go into. Yeah, yeah, sure. So this is what people have asked who are interested in. Yeah. I mean, some of the questions I've already gone over just because those were also my questions.

And so these are just things that I didn't think about or things that I don't, not really familiar with.

No, that's cool. Yeah. So first one, do you get much feedback from athletes on your commentary? No, actually. And I feel like they'll occasionally take the piss, like an athlete actually surprises me that they and when they take the piss, then I realize they're watching, which is always quite a moment because it is quite an odd one because I stand the same hotels as them.

I see them like I talk to them like, you know, friends with some of them. And it's like, and then I'm aware that and I think if I thought about it, I go crazy. Because if you think about the fact that you're saying something about someone, you just had breakfast with it, which is really do you add in. So very little feedback, honestly, like there's been a couple of really nice people who have said, like either thank you or well done,

or like, I remember, I can't remember who I was Max. I actually can't remember who it was with someone in the German team. I got Hannah Moyles name mixed up with Leachier because they had this really wide shot and I just, I just said the wrong name and they were taking, they were joking about it with me and then whoever it was, and I think it was Max, but I'm sorry if it's not Max, I've got name wrong again. He like, he obviously like thought about that he was joking. It wasn't fun. It was

total jest. It was like funny, but he came to me after it was just like, oh, he was like, I know, he was like, I hope you know you're joking because like you do a really good job and thank you so much. And I was just like, wow, like that's like, that's, that's cool. And I, it's occasionally when it happens, it does, it means an awful lot to me when they say that because it's, this is what they do for a living. This is what they spend hours in the gym training for. And the very least I can do

is, is hopefully say something that they like hearing. And so yeah, it's awesome when they say that I think it's special, but no, it never really happens. Well, it's a cue for more people to give you feedback if, or do you want to? Yeah. If they also said to me like, and I'd love it if they said more like, like people teaching me stuff is like, and I learn it in the commentary box because like, you know, and that's what the brilliance of having them, because someone will say something

and you're like, oh my God, I've never thought of that. And I'll always say, like I usually say, if it's genuinely a new thing that I've never heard of before, I'm like, wow. And certainly they could have taught me technical things. I definitely wasn't very technical when I started the job and I think I've got better at that. So, and that's something that they sort of gave me feedback on just by doing what they do. And I just learned from them a little bit. But yeah,

any criticism, please tell me genuinely. Another question, a bit of a joke. Will Charlie Bosco ever have a job that you won't end up stealing? I know right. Literally Charlie, he's, I owe him my career for sure. I owe him my career. And again, it's never been that he's like, mate's rates got me in the back door, but he's just been there and he's had an eye out for me. And like the story of how I met Charlie was that I was, I just started climbing. I was psyched over

the moon about it. And he came at that point, he was quite big on the sort of alpinism scene. He was like a bit of a, he was a blog writer and he came to the gym I was at, he was invited there to give a talk. And we all went to the pub afterwards. And I remember just being a bit fanboy over Charlie. And then one of Charlie's friends died in Chamonix and left him all of his guidebooks. And Charlie had the guidebooks and he wrote, he sent a message to the war and said, could you send these books

to the really enthusiastic guy at the pub, which was me. And I was like, oh, wow. So he gave me all these guidebooks. And then when I was in Chamonix for the first time, I messaged Charlie and I just said, do you want to go climbing? And we started climbing together, but he, he definitely had the jobs that I wanted. And he had his eye out for me in terms of when he knew they were coming to a close, he suggested me or put me forward for those roles. So with that, without Charlie, I, I, I

wouldn't be where I am now, honestly. And he messaged me the other day because I shouted him out on air and he said, he said, thank you for the shout out, but it's your sport to commentate now. You don't need to do that. And I just remember that being a really humble thing for him to say, because he paved the way for me and the professional standard that I try to maintain. So, yeah, he's, he's a legend. So thank you, Charlie. Cheers. Are you guys still in touch or like, what

is he doing now? Are you going to steal whatever he's doing now? If it's a better job than mine, then I hope so. Yeah. Like he just needs to like, what I want Charlie to do is go into a job and prepare it for me and then I'll come in and improve it for him. That's how the system works.

Okay. Gotcha. Good to know. In a dream world, what kind of broadcast features or technology would you like to see or have? I would love someone behind the scenes crunching the numbers, which isn't really a, that isn't really a technical thing, but it, it's something that I think some sports have that we would benefit from because we have this amazing guy called Paul, who started off doing it completely. I think he still does do it for free, but he has this whole

database and he just is a huge climbing nerd. It's brilliant. And he just sends me all these stats, but I find it quite difficult to process some of that whilst I'm trying to talk and interact with the co-commentator to someone in my ear being like our graphics guy, for example, guy called them Antonin has this encyclopedic knowledge for climbing competitions that I do not possess. And he sat next to me during the Verona's youth comp and he wasn't really doing very much because

the graphics for youth is pretty minimal. And he just fed me incredible facts that I then could use. And so someone like that would be amazing. But in terms of like what's going on, technically, I think speed could be, I'd like to see some kind of a system where we can show exactly where, where an athlete lost time, some kind of like ghost mode or some kind of like sector lighting up system. So the audience also can see, cause we're getting so close now in terms of how close

they are. It'd be cool to have a graphic representation of who's actually ahead. Yeah. That would be interesting. There's for sure things that can be done improved in terms of predicting results as well. Because, you know, a computer knows better than we do what's going to happen and what the likelihood is. So we have that in quite a basic function at the moment. It would

be really good to see that prediction system. So we know more clearly, for example, in a combined comp, exactly what an athlete has to do to get to a certain position to be safe. That would, I think, benefit everyone hugely. Sort of like how they show in the, the graphics, like, oh, needs a top in five attempts or something to get gold. Like that, but just easier to understand. Like I know that graph, and also that graphic can kind of change depending on what other

people do. So it's, it's just some way of, you know, when they have a good graph, they can do the maths on it. Because they're not doing the play by play. They have time to do that. So I tend to leave them to work out exactly who's doing what where, because they have this eye for it where they can just see their way through a score sheet very quickly. But to have someone doing that for us so we don't get distracted from what's happening would be really helpful.

Not things I'd ever thought about. So that's really different. And a clock in semi-finals. So that's really helpful. And I think that's a really good thing. Not things I'd ever thought about. So that's really different. And a clock in semi-finals. I'd like a clock in semi-finals. Wait, is there not? No. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

One day we'll get a clock. Yeah. Hopefully. I've been assured. Yeah. All right. Last question. We need to know the origin of Sticky Serato. Someone told me, and I can't remember who it was you told me, but someone told me that his nickname, either in the Japanese team or just amongst his sort of peers, was Sticky Serato. And I just thought, so, and then when I found this out, as I tend to do, when I find something I quite like, I tend to get a bit hooked up in it for a

moment without realizing I'm doing it. But there's been an Instagram video where someone's edited my, which is brilliant, but edited all my times together. That was over 36 hours or whatever it was of broadcast time. But yeah, that was my real. That was Sticky Hands. Was that your real? Oh, it was wicked. I loved it. Sorry. I found it so funny when you did that. It was brilliant. I was like, ah, it's awesome. I love it when people do that. People sometimes ask me,

are you okay? And I say, yes. Parody is funny. And there's no way I can speak for as long as I do and not say ridiculous things occasionally. And honestly, it's probably part of what makes me who I am. As in, it's really going to annoy someone sometimes that I occasionally do that, but it's me. So, you know, it's who I am. I mean, yeah, I was actually contemplating whether or not I should

put it out because it was a little bit gross. Yeah, I agree. But then like we've seen lots of, I mean, after the athlete started licking their hands after the world champs thing for the, I don't think we can go to a grosser level. So maybe there's no more gross than climbing. Maybe that was it. We peaked. But I think apparently it's just because of his skin.

Like he's just amazing at holding onto volumes. So he's like a gecko, apparently. He can just, and you see, and the thing is, once you start seeing something, you start seeing it. So people, people listening to this watch the next time he's on a volume problem, because he hits it and he doesn't adjust. Like there's no movement. So most athletes will hit a slope and have a little twist or something. Usually he's just bang and that's it.

So it's, it's a, it's a good sort of energy saver he has as well. Yeah, definitely. He was just him climbing in general was one of the best moments of the season. It's cool, isn't it? Actually, it was a bit of a surprise to me that he did not podium during world champs. Yeah. I think it, I think it was maybe to a lot of people, but it is where he is 16. It's his

first season. And I think in the same way as Toby, people expected him, I think, I think sometimes he's got time and I think sometimes it's maybe good to have that moment earlier on. And I don't think there's any bad thing with Serato fighting through a few more qualification rounds. I, you know, he's, if he gets into the Olympics, he's going to be one of the favorites. If things continue to win the Olympics. And I think having that knowledge that you can be beaten

and to have that is no bad thing for him to go through. So I, and I, you know, we've got the Asian qualifier soon. I'll be there in Jakarta in a couple of weeks. So, you know, that's his moment. And it'd be interesting to see whether he's taken that experience and learn from it. I really hope, I hope he shows up in the, in the Olympics. I think it would be really nice to have someone young so that there's someone that can be a favorite, like multiple Olympics in a row.

I feel like that would be great for the sport in general. I agree. I agree. And he's, he's really nice as well. Serato is such a cool kid. He's like a bit quirky, a bit weird and just awesome. I really like him. He's great. Yeah. I wish we could hear more from him. Yeah. And also that, by the way, people always say that we should provide him with a translator. We do provide him with a translator. There is a translator literally there, but like it's very

much his choice to speak in English. And like the interview questions are one of those things that is quite hard to do sometimes. And it is a lot going on and I'm not there ever. Certainly when I have been there occasionally we'll make a call where it's like an athlete will maybe want to try to speak in English and we'll just be like, look, it's like, it's just going to be easier to do it with a translator because they're just more, you know, they're more expressive in the language they

want to speak in. But if an athlete is speaking in English on a, on a, on a interview, it's because they've literally chosen to do so. So it's, we have that option for them. I just see, I see that comment a lot, but it's disgraceful. And you're like, there is one standing right there. They just, they decide not to use it. Yeah. I just, I wish we could know more about his thoughts after, but I get him wanting to get the practice and speak in English. So yeah, maybe I'll assist. I mean,

next time we might, we might sort of insist on it, but maybe it'll be better next time. Maybe,

maybe. All right. Well, I think that's all the questions I had. Thank you so much for joining me today. It was great to hear about everything behind the scenes. Anything you want to shout out or let people know where they can find you? No, just say, if anyone ever wants to send me a message or like a discussion, I'll try to answer as much as possible. My Instagram is mackroom1. You can go into that. And then, yeah, and genuinely like it's, I, the comments people

have is always appreciated. And I like, please keep sending them in everyone. And, and as I said, like I look at the nasty ones and the nice ones and the nice ones though, mean a huge amount. And there's been a few people in the last year, just random people. And it's been a bit of a tough year for me for various things. And the people who have reached out, I just want to say thank you so much because occasionally someone sending a message at the right moment has genuinely like saved me for

some pretty dark places. So thank you to the people who, you know, out the blue will send you something just being like, oh, this made you laugh or like, you know, something happened. And I appreciate that. And so thank you to everyone who did that. Awesome. Well, yeah, thank you so much for joining me. No worries. Thank you for having me. I'll see you soon. Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast. If you're watching on YouTube, I would love to hear your discussion and thoughts

in the comments below. And don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed. If you're listening through a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars and you can continue the discussion through my competition climbing discord linked in all of the descriptions through all the platforms. Thanks again for listening.