Ep 7: Zoe Spriggins - Organizing Climbing World Cups

T-minus six hours or something and the queen dies. Because essentially you're being judged on whether or not you're disabled enough to represent your country. Do you sort of have an estimate of how much it costs to put on a World Cup level event? Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast. I'm your host Jinni and I'm excited to introduce my guest for today, Zoe Spriggins. Zoe is a program manager for GB

Climbing and is an expert in organizing and running climbing competitions. I promise there's much more going on behind the scenes than you expect. In this episode we'll talk about the Edinburgh World Cup disaster, organizing at World Champs, Paraclimbing, and Anti-Doping. I hope you enjoy this episode with Zoe. Okay, so yeah, how are you doing today? I'm good, how are you? Good, good. Anything stressful going

on for you? It's been a long day, but it's all right. Climbing related stuff? Yeah, I've been working for the International Federation this afternoon. So we had the board meeting, so taking minutes and trying to stay awake. Right. Well, God, you made it through the day. But yeah, related to that, I think a lot of people listening probably aren't familiar with you, some maybe, but for those who aren't familiar, what do you do in regards to competition climbing

organization? So I work for the British Mountaineering Council and I organize all the national climbing competitions in the UK. And I'm working on a major event strategy at the moment in the hopes that we can bring more international events to the UK. Is this event something you're allowed to talk about? The event strategy? Yeah. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm really excited. It's a good piece of work. Yeah, do you want to go into that a little bit right now?

Yeah, why not? We're on the topic. So we've hosted a few international events sporadically. And the idea is if we had a strategy, we can kind of identify solid hosting opportunities and build up a bit of a repertoire, a bit of a bank of, hey, the UK is a great place to come to because they host really good events. So it's kind of the background towards this strategy. And so it's quite exciting. So is this to bring international like IFSC events to the UK? Yeah, absolutely.

Not just that, also looking broadening horizons to ice climbing. I don't think we'd quite make ski mountaineering. We don't get a lot of snow, but you never know. All right. So you're involved in all of it from just like regular competition climbing to ice

climbing and I guess anything in between. Yeah. So I have the opportunity to manage the British paragliding team and then oversee registrations for ice climbing and ski-mo and then opportunity to work with some of the ice climbers up in Scotland in hosting European style events for the UIA, which is the federation that runs all the international ice climbing. Yeah, I don't know much about ice climbing, especially since I think it is like a separate

organization from the IFSC in general. So yeah, I just, I have no idea about ice climbing, but it's really cool that you have the knowledge of all of it. It basically means I don't get a break because the international season starts in April for IFSC sport climbing and then the winter season starts when the international season for sport climbing finishes. Then we go into the winter season and then we start again for the winter season. There's just no break from events. They're all the time.

That must be, yeah, there's definitely no break there. And so how did you get into this line of

work anyway? I was a climbing wall manager working in Sheffield and hosting these events. And my predecessor, he was leaving, he actually joined the UIA and runs the international ice climbing events and a couple of people on the ground, a couple of the coaches, a couple of the route setters. So he'd be really good at going for this role. So I thought, all right, I'll give it a go.

And I was successful. And then here we are five years later, still going. So it started with doing small events within your own little climbing gym and then branching out from there. Yeah. The climbing gym they used to work at was a designated international performance center. So each year we used to have to host the British league climbing champs. And it just got stuck in and helped the organizer as much as I could. I wanted to showcase the center. I wanted to make

the event really good. And then the opportunity came up to apply for the role full time. So I took it with both hands. So are you now currently employed by IFSC or like, is it British Mountaineering? So I'm employed by the British Mountaineering Council. The IFSC stuff is voluntary. So I'm secretary general for IFSC Europe. So I just help on the

executive board at the European level in the Continental Council. And so I help with kind of meetings and plenary assemblies and event organization in terms of just supporting in Alphonse, who does the calendar and that kind of thing. So that's more of a voluntary role. Just, you know, my plate's not busy enough. Do you, I guess, get fulfillment from being able to, I guess, have a voice in that area and they like kind of take into account what,

whatever like suggestions that you may have? Yeah, absolutely. It's a really good way to help influence the future of the sport on an international level rather than just on a UK based level. And I just think it's important to have a seat at the table and help, you know, further the development of the sport, especially around events in Europe. And the IFSC has just hit 100 members and there's 44 member federations within Europe. So it's brilliant to interact with

other federations and learn from them as well. Like learn from what they're doing and try and improve what we offer in the UK. It's a great opportunity. It's a bit of work, but hey, all good things or works are worth something in the end, aren't they? If you work hard enough. Yeah, absolutely. Okay. So yeah, let's get into Team GB a bit since that's what you have

the most experience with. So the GB climbing team, it seems pretty established. In a previous podcast episode, I was talking to Maya who you know, and she mentioned that in some countries athletes are employed by the army and that's kind of how they get paid and how they have some security in the job that they're doing. Is this the case for GB? No, I think a lot of them are students or a lot of them are route setters or have part-time jobs or do try and full-time climb. I think that's the

best way you can maximize the training. We do have climbing teams within the armed forces and they do have their own competition series, which I've been invited to and go and assist on and help, but they don't tend to not too much crossover between being in the armed forces and being on the team. It's quite different. So they're like actually part of the army? Yeah, yeah, actually part of the army and the area. Oh gosh. Okay. And the Navy. How does the, if you don't mind going

into this, how does the GB climbing team itself actually make money? Is it like sponsors, donations? Do you ever like make money actually holding competitions? Oh no, we don't make any money holding competitions. Okay, that's unfortunate. Yeah, I'd love to know how people do make money hosting competitions. Most events I've gone to or worked on, the sole aim has been to break even. The team is in a position at the minute where we're going through a lot of change. So athletes are

mainly self-funded. There is some funding when you start to reach creeping to the Olympic side of things. So if you're really pushing for Paris or LA, there's a little bit of funding that can help support you on that journey. But at the moment, we are kind of, it's a growing sport in the UK, but if you think of the UK, the first thing you think of is Premier League football. You don't really think of climbing. And so a lot of the money is in the Premier League. But I think we'll get

there eventually. It'd be good to, we're working on sponsorship, obviously. Everyone loves to have a bit of sponsorship and work with sponsors to get the mutually beneficial relationship going. But that's quite challenging in these times, especially after COVID and everyone's coming back to full calendars and full seasons and events are happening all over the world. And obviously, you have to work out kind of your strategic aims for the year and where you can get the most points

from to get qualification routes into Paris, especially as Paris is next year. And then who knows what LA is going to look like yet? We don't know. It could be three single disciplines. And then the opportunities then explode for more climbers to come through, especially those that are leading Boulder. You're kind of hopeful that after more Olympics, after more Olympic years, there might be more money coming in to the organizations. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah,

more exposure and hopefully some medal success would be great. But I think everyone wants to win medals, don't they? Yeah. I mean, you guys have some good prospects, especially with Toby. So that'll be really exciting. Really, really exciting. And then looking forward to looking your head to LA, you kind of look back a couple of years and see who's coming through the youth side of things and how you can then really develop them to reach their potential and maybe even

represent GB in LA, which isn't that far away even though everyone says, oh, it's 2028. Well, we're at the back end of 2023. It's not even that far away. And when you see how hard people have to work in order just to achieve the goal of getting to the Olympics and then let alone succeeding when they're at the Olympics is absolutely phenomenal. The time and effort and everything comes together and how everyone has to chip in. It's just crazy. In terms of organizing

events, what's one of the most stressful moments that you've had there? Oh, so a funny story. When I first started five years ago, I didn't really know what to expect when I walked into my first event. So I walked into his first event and Mark, he's been with me now for a good few years and he was volunteering his time way before I started. So he had to teach me how to kind of do all the scoring and input the scores and yeah, the general day-to-day running of the events. So that was quite

stressful. I think I try and go with the kind of positive attitude that you just need to not worry about things that come your way and you've got to be really flexible and just enjoy it. The best thing is sometimes it can be a bit stressful in the run up to the event, but actually seeing the whole event come together and be pulled off, I think that was great. But if I had to pinpoint the most stressful moment, I think that would have been Edinburgh last year because we stepped in

last minute to host an IFSC World Cup. Quite late notice. By the time we'd got the go ahead that we could step in and host it, we had seven to eight weeks planning. So I was away at the time with the Paraclimax team in Innsbruck and I was on this call when we were discussing whether or not we could go ahead and run the event and we decided to at the end. So we had seven to eight weeks of planning to pull this event together the night of the event. So we just done the technical meeting

on the Friday night. It's about to start Saturday morning, you know, team-runnest, six hours or something and the Queen dies. And we have no idea if the event's going to go ahead, if we can run it, if the government's going to cancel. So I say that's probably been one of my most stressful events to date. Just had no clue what was going on. Why was it only like a seven, eight week notice ahead of time?

Oh, Wu Xiang in China had pulled out pretty late so they couldn't host it. They were desperate to try and find another host and I don't know, we like a challenge in the UK and so we went for it. So first of all, I think this was like your first World Cup event that you've worked on. This was my first World Cup event I'd worked on, yes. In 2019 we'd hosted a European event at the same venue up in Scotland in the International Climate Arena. Amazing facility.

So that was my first event, kind of European event to get to grips with internationals. But this was our first, this was my first World Cup. So to combine it with eight weeks of planning and then have the Queen die was pretty challenging. Yeah, so I guess after the death, like what happened in those few hours between Friday and Saturday night? We were desperately trying to find information on whether or not we could actually

host the event. A lot of games, football games, et cetera, were being cancelled out of respect. And so you're in that middle ground where, okay, we've got a whole international event due to take place. We've got loads of people that have arrived in Edinburgh expecting to climb. We've sold tickets. We've got the arenas ready to go. We've got staff. We've got staff. Everything's been organised and we're just not sure if we're going to be able to run it

or not. And if the government says we can't run it, then we can't run it. So it was quite an interesting, an interesting time. I think I got to bed around one in the morning, had a very restless night's sleep and woke up to the news. We could go ahead, but we couldn't have any social media coverage of the event out of respect. So we rushed off to Hobbycraft and we got some black rib in and we tried to make it as respectful as we could with silences throughout the day.

But it was pretty stressful. Yeah. So I guess, what do you mean by no social media coverage of the event? Because I mean, obviously it was still streamed. Oh, so it was, we weren't allowed, out of respect, we didn't publish anything across our social media channels. So we didn't highlight that the event was taking place. We had loads of social media coverage planned to highlight the athletes, to highlight the bagpiper that we had there that led out the procession of the finalists.

But in the end, we chose out of respect not to highlight any of that across our social media channels over that weekend. I mean, we obviously highlight a bit after, but over the weekend we didn't do very much. And how did it turn out for you in the end? You feel like, did it, was it a successful event? Definitely. I definitely learned a lot. I had a blast. It was it was great. The scene of the lighting and the athletes, everything coming together, the atmosphere.

It was long, long hours, long old hours. But yeah, it was, it was, it gave me a real good taste of what we could do. So I was just buzzing. Are you hoping to organize, like host another

World Cup in Edinburgh eventually in the future? Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't think we've got any firm plans for next year, but absolutely. I think it'll be a great opportunity, especially in Edinburgh with the international climbing arena. It's a great venue, world class. Yeah. I guess how does it get chosen in the future? Like do you have to apply? Yeah. So we would move towards a tender process. So we would set out the requirements that we'd be looking for and then venues and councils,

because in England we have councils. Each region has a council. We'd look to be working with the council and then they can apply to host the event. The face of the sport is changing massively. We're very commercial driven. We have over 400 commercially active centers within the UK, climbing centers, and they're not necessarily set up for spectating. So there's a big shift on, we could host events in city centers or we could host them in arenas. And if you look at the

IFSC World Cup in Prague, I mean, that was in the middle of the city center. It was incredible. The footfall and the turnout of people watching that and it really highlighted, then got the sport on the map, I think, and it was great for the IFSC. And so that's kind of the future really, moving it into city centers. And at the moment, all our events we host are in commercial operated climbing centers, except for our British bouldering champs, which

we set up in a park in the middle of Sheffield city center. So I think moving forward, it will be, we'll see a lot more of city center events or events in arenas. When I went to the world championships in Bern, that was in an ice hockey arena. And that was another level. Yeah. I had no idea. Yeah. Another level that had this amazing opportunity to go out and volunteer. So headed

out for three weeks to help behind the scenes and help with everything. Helped with getting the venue ready, helped with matting, helped with call zones, helped with transition zones, cleaning, you name it, registration. I did it all that week and it was fantastic. But it was another level having that arena and seeing how packed it was, especially for combined finals or lead finals or broader, the crowd was just incredible. So a whole another level. Yeah. We'll get into Bern in a bit,

but going back to, I guess, just how these arenas or climbing centers get set up. I think for a lot of us, we have never had the opportunity to go see a world cup event in person. I haven't, and I'm sure a lot of people haven't. So for those of us who have never had the chance to go see one in person, can you sort of just describe what the venue looks like and what things you need in a venue to make the event possible?

Yeah. So for a broader event, especially when we run it in the Parking Sheffield with the city council, Sheffield city council and their business district that often supports it, there's a scaffold structure and then the wall is built onto the structure and it's around four meters in height and then we need about four meters for matting. And then we'll have some barriers so that the coaches can come in and we can also operate our judges. And then after that it's free

for spectators so they can take up all the space. Behind the scenes, you also have to consider athlete warm up areas, drinks, toilet facilities, all the kind of other bits and bobs that you don't actually, you don't think goes on. Last year I got the opportunity to go to the gymnastics world championship and they had in Liverpool and their front facing arena, you think, oh wow, that's something incredible. But behind the scenes, they obviously, athletes needed somewhere to

warm up. They needed hotels and the accommodation can't be too far away because then athletes have to add on travel time. And so all the gymnasts were staying in the hotel, literally across the road from the venue. But they had this whole underground operation, which was full of brand new equipment that the athletes could warm up on. And you just don't consider, oh, where are the athletes actually going to warm up? So at World Cups and other events, they need space to warm up,

especially speed athletes. They have a lot of high energy routines. They need quite a bit of space. They do a lot of running, fast, get the fast twitch muscles going. And then for ropes, obviously, you want somewhere where you can actually get on a rope and link some longer moves together. Typically, you find that there's lots of bouldering space where you can warm up, but for a rope to climb in, you probably want to have some space where they can do some longer moves. LinkedIn and

then Boulder. Well, most venues have a little Boulder wall where you can start warming up. The British bouldering champs, we are limited on space, so we encourage athletes to warm up where they can and then do their final prep at the venue just because we've only got some more warm up wall out the back. And then we pray that it doesn't rain because we're outside in the UK. Yeah, especially. So in these venues, like, are you building the, is it like a portable climbing

wall or are you trying to find spaces where a climbing wall has already existed? Because you said that you were building up like scaffolding. Yeah. So the British boulder champs, we use a team from the climbing works that come in and they build the wall. They put the plywood onto the scaffold and actually shape the wall there and then based on

the scaffold design. That's quite a unique competition for us. The rest of our events are held in commercial facilities where they already have the walls in situ and the matting in situ. And all we do is we go in and we provide root setters and the root setters are the ones that shape the competition and do the mastery and make the roots look cool and make the boulder problems look incredible. And we have a hold supplier with serious climbing distribution and they provide us

with holds for our events. And so all these little parts come together to make the event what it is. There's lots of moving parts and you can't pinpoint one part is absolutely crucial because you need a venue, but without root setters and holds and then it doesn't work. So you kind of, it's all three points of the pyramid. You kind of need all three things to make the event come to life. And then the running of the whole thing, we rely heavily on volunteers from our technical officials

to our belayers, to guys on reception, to people scanning tickets. Yeah, we rely a lot on volunteers to come down and judge and belay and hopefully they also have a good time. Try and give them a good time. In terms of accommodating for rain, do you have a preference on indoor versus outdoor venues?

It seems like most World Cups are outdoor venues, so I'm not really sure why given the weather concerns. Yeah, I don't know. I think outdoor venues just look really cool. So imagine you're walking through Sheffield City Centre and you come across Devonshire Green and there's this massive wall just in the middle of this green in the middle of the city centre. You'll be like, whoa, what's that? But in the UK, I don't know, I'd always go for an indoor venue because the weather's just so

unpredictable. I just don't think we could find a decent slot where it's not raining. I mean, it's been lovely weather today, but it's October. You kind of want the season to be a bit shorter, but yeah, I definitely think an indoor venue over an outdoor. But then again, I absolutely love the British Bordering Championships is my favourite event in our national calendar just because it is outdoors and because we do build the wall specifically for that event. I absolutely love it.

I just think it's a really unique and awesome event. But if it rains, the people don't come and watch and we've got to make sure the wall doesn't leak and everywhere's kept dry. Two years ago, I think we had a flood because the weather was that bad out the back and the athletes couldn't warm up because there's just water everywhere and where we're trying to warm up. And yeah, so I definitely prefer a weatherproof venue. I'll put it that way, weatherproof venue.

So I guess part of the appeal of the outdoor venue is also just drawing other people's eyes in who aren't necessarily climbers, but might see it just out in the city and then might look into it in the future because it looks interesting. Yeah, absolutely. There's one event on the circuit I'd love to go to and that would be Chamonix. I've never managed to get there, but Chamonix has done it and the backdrop is the French Alps. It's done outside on the amazing wall

and the backdrop is the French Alps. I mean, I got all the way to Villars in Switzerland and their backdrop was also mountains. So I do think it's pretty cool when you've got mountains. But I think we're more classed as an urban sport now. So I guess moving into the city centers kind of fits in with what we're being classed as, I guess, a bit more urban. Yeah, I guess I've heard this a couple of times that it's being classified as an urban sport.

I don't really know what that means. I mean, I guess I know what it means, but does it really make a difference just declaring it as an urban sport? I do think so. I think sport climbing will always have its history within mountaineering and climbing and being outdoors. I think urban because it fits with skateboard and BMX and break dancing. I can kind of see that it's a younger sport, but I think it'll

always have its links. I think people will eventually find their way outdoors and into the hills and into the mountains and onto the crags if they can, definitely. Definitely. Yeah. Okay. And do national federations get a lot of guidance or any

guidance from the IFSC in terms of organizing or do they just kind of let you go wild with it? There's an event handbook and there are specifications for the size of the wall, depending on which event you run. And then the IFSC will come in and they will give support with route setting and technical officials and results service. So they do actually, and obviously event branding. So it is a good collaboration to work with them and showcase the best of your country.

That's essentially what you're doing. It's your shop window, isn't it? Look how good Manchester is or Edinburgh is or the UK as a whole. That's essentially what you're doing. It's a great honor when you can apply and you can be selected. I definitely think it's a great honor. Okay. That's good. That's good to hear, but you don't make any money from it. It's like a very expensive procedure to go through. Very expensive leisure.

But like worth it. Oh, do you know what? This is going to sound really nerdy, but I went after the World Champ. I know we're going to come on to the World Championships, but after I went to World Championships in Byrne, I was so pumped that I was just ready. Like, what's the next event? Where are we going to next? I was just ready to continue and run another event. I just think there's something exciting and just brilliant about

running events. When's the next one going to happen? Where's it going to be? And how can you make it better than the one you did last month or the one you did last year? And how many more children can you get to come down to the event and fall in love with climbing and fall in love with competing or even just have a good time? Just come down and have a good time and not worry about

whether they come first or whether they come last. They just come out with great time. So I think events are a really good way to highlight everything. Yeah, that's awesome. But yeah, we can go into your Byrne experience. So I mean, that's a massive

event to pull off. Just walk me through what it was like organizing for that. It started with a few conversations back and forth with us on the Swiss Alpine Club. He's kind of slightly higher than me in the organization, but I know him through the European Board. And he put me in touch with Sanjo and Yulia and they were the main organizers. And it was just fantastic to just get the opportunity to be involved. I'm not sure what

I was expecting. You know, when you go to events and you think, oh, I'm just going to volunteer my time. Not sure what I was expecting. So the first day, arrived in Switzerland, got picked up, went and picked up the Miringen Boulder Wall and brought it back to Byrne and helped unload it and have a look at the venue. And yeah, it was already quite underway in terms of route setting was happening and the holds were there and the athlete lounge needed to be set up and various signage

needed to go everywhere. And they had this cool athlete village, village of experience. And that was coming in and yeah, it was just crazy. It was, I didn't stop. I did 20 days straight. Didn't stop. It was just brilliant. I know that sounds like a lot, but all their volunteers, they had a really cool volunteer manager called Christian who worked at the local climbing center at Oblock. I think he runs it. If he's listening, he'll probably be upset that I've probably got his

title wrong. He was so funny, but he organized the volunteers and they have such a group, great group of volunteers. There wasn't someone I met that they're just brilliant. Rito gave us some honey from his local bees and Lauren. Lauren's over in Ireland. So actually she's not, she's not that far from me. So we've been meeting up and she came to the British lead champs back

in September. So it was great to see her again. And Roman, you know, you keep in touch with all these people that you meet and you've just been brought together on this one event and just pulled off such a brilliant, brilliant level of organization and level of event. And it was just fantastic to be part of the team. Absolutely fantastic to see what really goes on and what you really need to pull off a world championship. The other day I think I read in the local newspaper, it was like

60,000 people came across the three week period, two week period of the event. Obviously they handed out the first tickets to Paris. So that was even more fantastic. But yeah, I kind of wished the IFSC had like packed me up in their trunk and taken me to the next event, you know. I was having such a good time. What's next? What event have we got coming up next? You mentioned that this was that it took place in an ice hockey arena?

Yeah, so the post finance arena in Burton is actually normally used in winter as an ice hockey stadium. So they removed all the ice and the team were actually still training at the venue. So sometimes we'd have qualification going on for lead and then all these hockey players would walk through the same area behind the scenes and they were going to this secondary ice rink to do all their training. So it was pretty cool, but it's a huge arena, absolutely huge. And just had seating

and then standing and was accessible for the guys that needed wheelchair access. But yeah, it was just, it was crazy. The first week, I don't know how many times I got lost or locked out. You couldn't find my way back in. And so like, how long does it take to just build up these walls

in these places that don't have like necessarily the structure for it? I think they said it had been about a couple of weeks before because they've got this two arenas on the same site. So they had the curling hall, which is where the curling team practiced. They had that for the board of qualifications. So that came in, that was finished off the week I was there because we'd moved the Miringam wall and that got put in as the qualification wall

and the fencing and the matting. So all that went in the last week before the competition started. So I was mainly involved in that area, but I think a week and a half before that, they'd done the build in the main arena. So they'd done the speed wall, the lead wall and the boulder wall there. And the route setting had started for the para first. And then again, when I arrived, they were doing the boulder and the lead for their individuals. And then the recesses just, they work so hard.

And then they had to reset for the combined finals and the combined qualifications. So a lot of route setting happened. But they were really good, really positive, friendly guys to work with. So you had a bunch of volunteers working under you. What was it like keeping all of the organized for the event? I think the biggest thing I learned was you need to allow people time to watch. So smaller shift patterns allow people time to watch the event because you're just enthralled

with what the crowd did. When the crowd go wild at that arena, it was so loud. You knew when someone was at the top or someone was close to the top or someone had done something amazing because the crowd just make the hairs on the back of your arm stand up. It was incredible. So I think it was allowing, making sure that everyone knows we're all human at the end of the day and we're really interested in what's going on. So allowing some time so they can go in, oh, hey, this is the last

guy now. Why don't you go out and watch and I'll stay back and cover the last few guys. So I think not something I learned massively was, yeah, we all want to watch as well as volunteer, but we all want to watch. Yeah. So you have to sacrifice yourself. Yeah. I don't mind. I'm more of a behind the scenes than I am in front of the camera. Yeah, no, that definitely makes sense. I've like volunteered in the past and when you're, I was just doing like, like the isolation area and when

you hear the crowd go wild, but you can't see what's going on. It's just, it's like a very

stressful experience. Especially when, cause obviously some of the GB climbers were there, like Toby was there and Molly, and especially when you want to just be supportive and try and cheer them on, but equally you can't cause you've got to be serious and professional and you need to make sure everyone's having a good time in the back and you're not interfering with the athletes and making sure that they can stay in the zone and you're just there to be invisible,

but guide them in the right way when they need to go out. Yeah. What was, and what was one of the most difficult parts of burn for you? I would have to say, well that we, we did laugh about it a lot afterwards, but there was one slip up when during one of the rounds, I can't, I can't remember what round it was. Adam Andre, so you have to control the gate. Okay. So the athletes come out and they have a clock and the clock went different colours. So the clock went red and then it went white and

the white was the 15 second transition. That's so they had to wait for 15 seconds before they could go out to start their rotation. And so the red clock was counting down and there was beeps and Adam just blew past me, went straight out and I had someone in my ear shouting, why is Adam out on the field of play? He shouldn't have been out yet. And I couldn't stop him. So I think that was quite a stressful moment because he'd just gone. And I was like, oh no,

you're not supposed to be out there. And I think he was Julian Clements and Alex Magos. Then they were just having a bit of fun teasing me and pretending that they were going to go earlier for the next couple of rounds. So that was, it's quite stressful to try and make sure the athletes stay there and go out at the right time. But yeah, entertaining. We had a good chuckle afterwards. Did he just not know? I think when they get in the zone, they just don't

cause the transition, the 15 second transition is new to this year. So I think when they just get in the zone, that's it. And they used to the countdown and then go. Yeah, that sounds like an awesome time. Let me think, was there anything else that you wanted to

discuss in terms of burn? Well, I don't think so. I mean, the event itself was fantastic because the para climbing was bang in the middle. So I nipped out of the organisational role for a couple of days so I could manage the GB para climbing team and help all the athletes with their campaigns and their schedules to try and get them into the finals. And it was great having such an inclusive event where it wasn't, okay, here's the able bodied climbing and then there's two days and the

para climbing starts. The para climbing was bang smack in the middle and some of the GB team came down and supported and it was a really great atmosphere. And it was the biggest para climbing event. I think they've run so far had around 180 to 200 athletes and 25 countries competing. So it was fantastic. Real, real showcase for para climbing sport. It was brilliant. Yeah, let's get right into the para climbing stuff. That's something I'm not as familiar with.

So what are some of the differences between organising for, I guess, like traditional able bodied World Cup climbing and organising for para climbing? The main difference would be the number of categories. So we have 10, 10 sport classes, nine, nine or 10 sport classes currently. And that's, and that's men and women. So at the end of burn, I think there were 17 podiums we had to get through for para. So it's pretty cool.

Each, the categories cover different ranges and different disabilities. So you have the amputee guys, you have the visually impaired guys, and then you have the range in power. So kind of the neurological side of things. And within each of them, there's different numbers that donate, whether or not it's the most impaired or the least impaired. So for example, in the range in power, so the neurological side, you have RP1, and that would be your guys with kind of the more

heavily impaired. So they might only have like a bit of power in their legs or range of motion is limited. Then you have RP2, which is a step up and then RP3, which is the least kind of disabled in that, in that group. So people maybe have multiple sclerosis might be in RP3. And you look in in your RP1 guys that have cerebral palsy, that kind of thing. Then your amputee categories, you have your lower and your upper. So you've got your lower leg and your upper, so your AR1,

which is mainly seated. Those guys are incredible. So they campus everything on their roots because they can't use their legs. It's just, it's just mind blowing. It's incredible to watch. And then you have your lower leg amputees, they might wear a prosthetic, or they might choose not to. And then in the arm, you have your below the kind of elbow joint and below, and they had a new class this

year, which was AU3. And that's if you've got problems with your hands. So if you're missing fingers, that affects your grip, or loss of sensation or anything to do that, then they've got they've kind of restructured the classes there. And then finally, the visually impaired, they follow the same as the RP guys. So you've got visually impaired, you've got B1, B2, B3. So B1 being you're fully can't see anything can B3 being you have some vision, but not, not the same as

me or you, for example. That's a lot of categories. I guess, do you know how those got determined? And is it kind of weird trying to fit people into these categories, like determining at what level of, I guess, disability they have? Oh, absolutely. So each year, you have to undergo classification. And so you will complete a medical form, and you send it off to the International Federation before you're due to compete. And then two days before the event,

you'll get assigned a classification slot. Now you can be classified for a fixed review date, so a number of years, or you can be classified for just that year, and they want to see the following year, or you can be classified as not eligible. And I think it's one of the most stressful things that anyone should have to go through, because essentially, you're being judged

on whether or not you're disabled enough to represent your country. And don't get me wrong, I understand that there needs to be some set of rules and some set of, okay, criteria to make the competition fair, so that you're broadly competing with, in the category with people that have a similar or the same ailments as yourself. So I understand that, but the process of classification is always stressful. I've never found it not stressful, and I'm not even the one being

classified. I'm just there to support the team. And then if you have a fixed review date, that's the best outcome. So it'll be a number of years, so you might be classified this year, and your fixed review date will be 25 or 26. So then you don't need to submit your medical documentation each year, you'll just need to have it submitted and ready for 2026, when you go for your review. And it's that similar across all power sports. But I think we are one of the sports with the

highest number of classes, sport classes, currently. A lot of other sports have fewer classes, so you can imagine they might have a broader range of ailments to fit into one class. But yeah, we have the highest number, I think, at the moment.

Yeah, that is a lot. Do you think that, I mean, there is like the Paralympics as well. Is that something, is climbing something that will show up in the Olympics in the future for para climbing? We find out in November, at the end of November. I know, I know. We find out, so the decision will be made about whether para climbing will be included in LA in 2028, which is why I was saying that burn was such a success because

25 countries had para athletes represented at that event, which is phenomenal. And it shows that the sport is growing and that there is an appetite for people to come and watch as well. But yeah, the IFSC have got a strong desire to be included in the Paralympics. And so we're just waiting to hear now. So it is exciting. It could change a lot for a lot of

athletes, as I was saying at the start. So some of these athletes could then have the opportunity to be funded because they could be in with medal potential for LA Games, which is, it does seem like eight, nine years away, but that's good. I'm going to go by pretty quickly. If you imagine you've got to try and keep yourself healthy and work really hard to be the best you can be for

this, this one pinnacle sporting event where you could be an Olympian. I did. I just think for para climbers to have the opportunity would just, just be incredible, but we have to wait and see. End of November. Yeah, that would be really exciting. Do you know, so like what kind of, do you know what kind of categories would be available for para climbing or for the Paralympics for para climbing if that does come through? No, I don't have that information at the

moment. I just know that the decision is going to be made and then I guess we'll find out, but I'm hoping, I'm hoping that they'll, they'll cover, I don't know, either way someone's going to lose out. Do you know what I mean? Cause we can't just head to the Paralympics as a first, first opportunity for the sport and have all the classes be accepted, which would, would be amazing obviously. So I think, yeah, I don't know. I'd love to know, but I'll just have to wait.

I mean, even for like the regular Olympics, they only gave us one medal for all of speed, only gave us one medal for all of speed and Balder and Leeds. So yeah, I can't really imagine, uh, I don't know. I don't think they'll, they'll give us many medals for the Paralympics either, but hopefully one day. I think it'll be, it'll be great if it does get into Ali though, because America, USA, you have a strong, a really strong Paraclimbing team. So I think, yeah, the

rest of us have to catch up. Yeah, it'll be exciting to see. Um, do you know how, like, is there a way we'll hear about it in November? I guess like the IFSC will make a statement about it or something like that. Yeah, I hope that that'll be a official announcement. Um, we've been waiting for the decision since February, so no one else has told me it'll be delayed any later than November. So I've got my fingers crossed that it will be at the end of November. Yeah. Okay. I hope to hear

about it and I hope it goes through. Yeah, me too. It'll be, it'll be incredible. Absolutely incredible. Yeah. And so in terms of organization, um, what are some of the accommodations that you have to keep in mind, um, either for like the venue or just the climbing in general, um, that you think most people probably don't have to think about when, um, organizing for Paraclimbers?

The layout of the venue is really important and how accessible it is. So if you imagine there'll be some people with mobility issues, but there will be people in full wheelchairs. So the layout of the venue and a lot of climbing walls, if they've got accessible toilets on the ground floor, it might be an accessible venue, but then you've got to go up the stairs to use

this facility. So that's, that's a consideration. And then the IFSC actually produces really great document where they give you kind of guidelines around route setting, because different categories have different strengths or weaknesses. So for some categories you need to put on more footholds because they can't, they're not going to, with the range in power, motion, they're not going to be

able to lift their feet as high. With some, some sport classes, like the seated guys, you don't really want to put them on a vertical wall if they're campers in, because they're not going to be able, they need to be able to like, their body will be hanging. So they need to have some space. And then the amputee guys, you need to think about, they can't really use small crimpy holds, especially if they've got a forearm missing or a hand missing. So there's a really great document

that gives you some guidance on the route setting. And the route setting actually is generally, I think it's still learned, I think everyone's still learning about where the, you know, where the glass ceiling is. I don't think we've tapped what the athletes are actually able to do. Because we're still learning at each event and each event, the route setting is getting better and more varied and the holds are incredible and the athletes doing incredible things. And I,

I just don't think we've tapped into, to where it can go just, just yet. I think there's massive potential for route setting, but yeah, there's a great, great support from the IFSC and they give you some real good guidance on what you can, you know, what the sport classes look like and what you can set and what's best to avoid. Yeah. I would love to get like a, a route center on for answering some questions about that in the future.

But is there anyone, like, is there any para climber on an IFSC board or like the, the athletes commission that helps speak to these things? So I've been pushing for that to happen. It's not, we're not quite there yet. There is a para climbing commission that's very active with, within IFSC that has para athletes represented

on there. So I think that's great. And they do have input and they do make suggestions. And after each World Cup or World Championships, there's a meeting with the coaches and the route setters and we, we try and come together and discuss and just try and work with other federations and run training camps and attend each other's nationals. So I think we have Matty from Slovenia came over to the British Champs like back in September, which is great.

We're hoping to head out to, to Spain to attend their nationals and we're hoping to, to go to some of the Swiss nationals. So I think there's a lot of cross collaboration within the para and we just, we just need a few more events, I think, which is great. Awesome. Okay. Yeah, I think that's everything I want to go over in terms of para climbing.

There was one last thing that I think you mentioned, you had a lot of say on. Which I thought was interesting and that is the anti-doping laws. And that's something I'm not familiar with at all. I haven't looked into like rule books or anything about it. Do you want to give like a brief overview of that? Oh yeah, I see. I find another weird thing about me. I find anti-doping absolutely fascinating. So I think it was back in 1908, there was the first recorded dope and use at an Olympic games.

And then people knew about it, but they, they, we didn't have any testing. And then WADA was formed in around 1999 and UK anti-doping came in after that. And that's when we started doing the prohibited lists and started doing the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the discarded plates. So that's where I started looking at the ways people can do cheat. And there's been some cracking stories recently.

The whole alliance on Armstrong and and Russia, obviously I just find the whole, the whole side of that, absolutely incredible. It's really interesting and fascinating. So, we basically you can comply as a sport you can decide to sign up to the code. Interestingly in America, NFL don't sign up to the code. That's quite interesting. And also CrossFit I don't think sign up CrossFit Games. I don't think he's covered by WADA. So I find all these little things fascinating.

We sign up to WADA and then our national doping authority is UK anti-doping in the UK. And I so I'm the anti-doping officer and so I'm responsible for the training of the athletes and staff and coaches and athlete support personnel. And it's just incredible. It's just yeah, it's just brilliant. It's really interesting.

So there's lots of ways you can check your medications and your supplements and a lot of climbing gyms have all these protein shakes with added protein in and actually 98% of inadvertent doping comes from supplement use.

So we obviously promote a food first approach but anything with has got protein added into it or protein shake or you know a cliff bar anything that's got stuff added into it is actually a supplement and that presents a real anti-doping risk especially if you are a an elite athlete and you can you can be tested inside and outside of competition and the prohibited list is this fascinating document where it lists all the substances that are

prohibited but not just that all the methods of how you can get them into your system as well that are prohibited. And it's just a real it's just a real real interesting and interesting topic and I just love going in and educating people around what they can and can't do and how to keep themselves safe really as an elite athlete. And yeah just another weird thing about me I guess.

So what kind of what kind of testing do you guys do and like how often is it? So we have a testing pool so if you're on the national testing pool you need to submit your whereabouts and your whereabouts is this big diary where basically you need to specify an hour of each day of where you're going to be. Now I don't know about you but I would find that really difficult because my plans are always changing.

As an elite athlete that's what it's kind of what you sign up for in order to keep your sport clean. So you submit an hour each day and then they basically can come and test you at any time in and out of competition. When we hosted the Edinburgh World Cup we provided testing at the event it's mandatory for any IFSC event you need to provide testing. And with the para side of things so I've accompanied a couple of athletes to testing control and gone through the testing process.

And it's not it's not as scary as you think but yeah it's just fascinating and you have to choose your vessel and they they test one sample right there well not right there it goes off to the laboratory to be tested but then your second sample is kept in storage for 10 years.

It's frozen and kept for 10 years because methods of getting illegal substances into your body is always evolving and antidoping is always trying to catch up with with how this substance has got in under the skin or got in through this system or got in through that system and then can be then linked to an improved performance or enhance you know enhance the sport essentially.

So I just I just find it fascinating and I I quite I guess I feel quite privileged in order to try and help protect the sport and keep it keep it clean and keep keep all the athletes safe and on the right side. Well 10 years is a long time. Yeah I know it's crazy isn't it 10 years. I do I often go I often go to the thoughts of you know what what happens if there was no day open and everyone could just get jacked up on steroids and how how far could you push human limits.

But it's probably not one to do.

Yeah that yeah that could get weird really fast. Do we are like I don't know the history of doping within climbing. Are there cases where that has happened before? No very few to be honest I think the 2021 code introduced substances of abuse and that's more around habitual drug use so your cannabis your steroids your ecstasy that kind of thing and cocaine. And so they introduced this in the code in 2021 and it's more of a program to help athletes because sometimes I get real event blues.

So you know when you've run a really big event or you've looked forward to a holiday or or you know something amazing has happened in your life and you've just had a great time and then you come back and hit reality and you just you just really down in the dumps and I think I don't know because obviously I'm not an athlete but I do I have had post event blues quite a few events where the events gone brilliant and you're just so thrilled

and people have turned up and had a good time and the problems have been amazing the roots has done a great job everything's come together to make this perfect moment in time and then the next minute that's it is over and so I imagine it's probably similar for for Olympic athletes or anything you know they must have real real depressive bouts because what do you do now you've worked four years to achieve one goal you've achieved it where'd you go?

So I'm they introduced this substances of abuse that gets you like a three month ban if you can prove that it wasn't you know it wasn't related to performance and it wasn't related to performance and that you could you can get it reduced to one month if you go on a drug rehabilitation program so it's quite it's quite interesting how the prohibited list is always evolving to what's going on in society but yeah the event blues is pretty

it's pretty hard when you know it hits you sometimes I don't I don't get it every event but ones I'm really proud of it can take you know a week to kind of get back to normal and feel a bit normal like feel a bit more like myself. Yeah so are you saying that there's like no usage allowed for any substances like that?

So there's two there's two main phrases we use in competition and out of competition so some substances will be banned at all times in and out of competition some will only be banned in competition and so some some you'll be able to use out of competition but you still need to be careful and then you can get like the main thing is around cold and flu medicine so if you're really ill and you're taking decongestants for example you do really

need to check what ingredients are on or in your decongestants because some of them can have banned substances in because they open up the airways to help you breathe because that's the point of a decongestion if you're really ill and you need you need to breathe and you got a blocked nose and you need some support then in that sense so there's a great a great website called global draw and you can check medications from different countries

it doesn't cover all the countries in the world but it does help you to minimize your risk of doping and a lot of the time it's having conversations with your doctors as

well. Interestingly though the longevity of Parasport has thrown up an interesting conversation I've been having with UK Antidoping recently around go athletes going through the menopause and hormone replacement therapy and where that sits with Antidoping and whether or not you know there are therapeutic use exemptions for those that that needs specific hormone replacement therapy to help them through the menopause because there's a great difference

between able-bodied and power climbers and a lot of power climbers are slightly older or have more longevity in their career I don't know whether that's just because they only do lead routes or if there's I haven't figured it out I think probably be a good piece of research to do but you do find that often the climbers are older or can sustain their climbing careers for longer on the power side of things and then yes thrown up around okay

going through the menopause what happens now with regards to Antidoping is a really interesting conversation to have yeah and something people might not have considered before. I have never thought about that before I had no idea there were athletes in that age range that would be going through menopause so that's news to me for sure. It's still really impressive that they can climb at that level at the international level you know?

Yeah I don't even I don't even know where to go with that like I haven't even thought about menopause in my life so I don't even know like I didn't even like you take drugs for that period of your life I don't know. You can do some people don't need them but some people do need assistance with hormone replacements the process you go through isn't as bad I guess but no I'm not well versed in that I mean we've got that to look forward to right? Yeah oh I do hope it's a long time from now.

Me too but I was just highlighting that you know the breadth of what you deal with as a Antidoping Officer and how you can be helping people who just have ADHD and need therapeutic use exemption or those with asthma or hay fever and how they can you know manage their medication or find alternatives or get the appropriate exemptions so they continue using that and then yeah you've got this one to deal with hormone replacement therapy what do you do there?

Geez yeah have you seen a lot of like accidental cases where like they ended up using something that they didn't realize would show up and be like a banned substance?

Not in climbing but I think that's probably because we're still relatively young I'm not going to say new because climbing has been around for ages and climbing competitions have been around for ages I mean the IFSC was created back in 2004 so it's not like it's new but climbing as a sport is young on its Olympic journey compared to other sports so I don't think we've had very many cases if at all compared to other sports like weightlifting

and athletics and bobsleigh and you know all the high press sports you hear in the news around 12 years later they finally got awarded the gold medal because the doping was finally proven and XYZ and I just don't know if climbers just come from that pure mountaineering sport and they just don't cheat. As a casual climber I can't even imagine what kind of drugs people would take in order to cheat.

I mean I think on the on the parasitic things if you had so some conditions like multiple sclerosis you can take cannabinoids because they do help alleviate some symptoms so whether or not you could say that was performance enhancing is slightly different because if your tremors are gone or you know you could say it's performance enhancing in that way for that athlete because it's helping manage their condition so that's an interesting kind

of take on things but I don't think we've had many cases at all. So is that would that be like banned in that case or is that okay as of the rules right now? It would be banned at the moment yeah they'd have to find an alternative which can be tricky depending on how severe your condition is it can be tricky.

Alright so I think those were the questions I had but there were a few other questions for from the discord group so we'll get into those now it's more of like a grab bag of questions now in terms of yeah all of all of your experience any of your experience.

So the first one how does the IFSC decide on where the competitions take place and what's in it for the national federations to hold these competitions?

So application so IFSC run a system on applications you need to apply to host a World Cup or World Championships and the World Championships is voted on at the General Assembly so the General Assembly is where all the member federations come together and discuss many things to do with climbing it's normally it's great to see everyone and reconnect with other federations and the host venue or host federation does a presentation and go we want to host the

World Championships or Youth World Championships for these reasons and here's why you should come and visit us and this is what we're going to do for the event etc etc but the World Cups are done on an application basis and they if you look at the cadence of the calendar you can see they try and group like an Asian leg a European leg and then a Pan-American leg mainly because we have a real drive to try and run sustainable competitions I appreciate

they're not going to be that sustainable because people always have to travel but there are things that can be done to make the event sustainable in a way and then in terms of the National Federation oh just the opportunity to showcase you know your events it's a big stage hosting a World Cup it's such a privilege and you have such an opportunity just to host show off your host city on your country you also get additional quota places so if you

are the host venue you can have additional places for additional athletes and that's a big opportunity if you're trying to build depth in your field depth in your team and you can give them this experience on home turf where they're not having to spend loads of money to travel to go overseas to compete where they get an opportunity to go you know and the Edinburgh World Cup last year we had additional places and the athletes you know

they could come and climb and enter the competition and is that a home or that they use or a war that they can access regularly so they have a bit of an advantage and I think that's probably one of the biggest reasons but as well as having just having the privilege of having everyone come to your country I think it's a massive draw for National Federations to host definitely.

Yeah I had never thought about just how much easier it must be for the athletes to just like be staying in like a hometown area yeah that makes a lot of sense.

As a National Federation you can put in to have an apprentice route setter so some of your national route setters can get the opportunity to set so again you're then just increasing the exposure to your whole system so if your national setters are setting it international level events then they can bring that back into your national events and then you can improve your national events which improves your athlete experience which is improving

closing the gap of performance between a national event and an international event and therefore your athletes just get more exposure to the holes to the moves to the setting standard and styles and that can only benefit them in the long run so there's wider and plus workforce development so your national judges will get exposure to an international level competition and judging and that experience again it all comes back into the system so it all helps you improve your national events.

A lot of opportunities and experience it sounds like which yeah it makes sense I hadn't thought

about that and you had also mentioned like environmental sustainability in terms of keeping the competitions within the same continent for a little while we actually had another question that was related to that how does the IFSC see the future of international comps in terms of environmental sustainability and whether they're trying to address that issue for example through like the building of new venues a source of equipment reusing items waste.

I think I think everyone's trying to address it in their own way IFSC Europe have the sustainability award so each event organizer has to complete a questionnaire on basically what they've done to try and make the event sustainable as possible and there's three tiers bronze silver and gold the tiers are quite achievable although I don't think we've awarded a gold yet at European level but we've definitely got bronze and silver and it just it just

puts it in the forefront because you think okay what can we do we host competitions across the world so everyone's going to travel to those events so we need to think how we can get there in a more sustainable way but actually you often find that yeah okay you think a train might be cheaper or might be greener but in the UK especially we use diesel trains a lot of the time so actually that's not that environmentally friendly compared to a plane

where a lot of airlines now you can buy into this greener tariff so you offset some of your carbon footprint.

As a federation we have our climate project so we're replanting sphagnum moss probably only useful in the UK with our peat bogs there's this great plant called sphagnum and basically it pulls carbon out of the atmosphere and it becomes a carbon sink and a lot of the peak district where I live has these peat bogs that are drying out and we've got a regeneration project underway to kind of help prevent water runoff and keep the bogs and help replant

sphagnum which will hopefully draw carbon out of the atmosphere so those kind of projects that people could get involved with but it is high on the agenda for the IFSC and definitely in IFSC Europe with the sustainability award for event organisers which is good success.

We're hoping to adopt some of it at our national events next year it just seems that government federations and that kind of thing they're all pushing to have some considerations for the environment moving forward so yeah we all have our part to play.

There's a you know do you know about halls and walls there's halls and walls in Germany this year and we have our sustainability commission of IFSC Europe are doing a presentation around this exact topic and there's a really interesting talk going on around how you can reuse and re-texture holds so that you can extend the life of the holds that we're currently using so if anyone's in Germany they should check out halls and walls at the end of November.

It's got some good talks going on around sustainability for climbing walls and climbing owners. Yeah I'll link it down in the description I'll get that from you after. Yeah I guess like do you know anything about how to like re-texture holds or like what is like the lifespan of a hold?

Our head root setter Max he has a company called Contact Holds and they've started this basically in the UK where they will re-texture old holds to help improve the use of them and help to keep them being used rather than just being thrown away because the texture's gone so there are some really interesting products and there are some climbing walls I think in Germany that are carbon neutral or moving towards that way so it is at the forefront of the industry.

I do think there are people that are trying things and doing things to make the whole sport more sustainable but yeah we all have our part to play and I think when you run events it's quite challenging because everyone has to get there somehow. Those things are sort of unavoidable and I'm sure not climbing specific but yeah we can

all try to do our part. Alright so another question a bit lighter of a question maybe favorite and least favorite competition to work on. Yeah that's a really hard question I know it shouldn't be a hard question but it is a really hard question.

I would say my favorite competition to work on if I was from a volunteer point of view was obviously the World Championships in Bern but if I was looking at it from my organizer point of view then it has to be the Edinburgh World Cup because I think to date that's been the pinnacle of my career so far especially as you know eight weeks I wouldn't recommend it to anyone doing it in eight weeks but the World Championships in Bern have been in the planning process of two years compared to it.

I know the World Championships isn't the same as a World Cup but they were they've been planning that event for two years in the run up to doing it so yeah to do a World Cup in eight weeks I think is pretty cool but I wouldn't recommend it to everyone. The least favorite oh see I'm trying to think of all the events I've been to even as a coach I can't think of one that was my least favorite. Maybe you've blocked it out.

I probably have I think maybe my least favorite has probably been when something's gone really wrong and you can't control it so the flooding at the BBC's we had that one year that's probably been one of my least favorite because the crowd don't come and watch and everyone's getting wet and athletes are getting wet and it's miserable I think and the roofs leaking and the mats wet and you're like oh I think that's probably been one of my least favorite

just because I can't control the weather as much as I'd like to thanks to Carden. Did the bouldering championship still just go on like fully as planned even with the flooding? Oh yes we're British we don't stop. We just carry on. I was just wondering because like for like the World Cup in Korea they canceled finals because of the rain so I wasn't sure if it could go on. We have a slight roof covering the wall so the athletes are dry no one else is dry but the athletes are dry at least.

So I think a slight difference but it was interesting that it didn't carry on but again as an event organizer if you only have a set number of days it's really challenging to build flex into the system you know or is the weather going to be bad or I don't know do we need to build in an extra day and then you can't really give out a provisional timetable with okay if the weather's bad then we'll have this extra day because people have to

book accommodation and travel and xyz but yeah we do have a bit of a roof on it just

if it's really heavy there's no hope. All right and I think last question it's a pretty quick factual one so that should be pretty simple. What are the technical requirements for walls to host different types or levels of competitions including those which are beyond the wall itself so I guess like venue related as well.

Yeah so I guess figures so standard boulder world cup will be on a 30 to 35 meter wall in in length and then you need four meters in height and then two and a half meters out for the matting from the highest point so that there's enough space for people to land so that's always quite a challenge I think and then height wise leading speed are kind of similar because you need at least 15 meters but you can't forget the dyno at the end of

the speed wall the last little bit but 15 meters can be a challenge when you're trying to set and the speed will slightly overhang in and then the lead wall can be anything from five degrees all the way down to 40 degrees overhang.

So it'd be really interesting to see where how the walls develop in the future and where they go like obviously the Olympic boulder wall is smaller that's only around 20 meters in length because it only fits for three problems on three four problems on there's a lot smaller than a world cup wall and then the lead wall again is is shorter in in width because you've only got to fit one two three four like six lines on it so the IFC do an event handbook

where they list all their essential criteria and if you're in the northern hemisphere and you're outside your wall needs to face in a certain direction or your venue needs to be orientated in a certain direction so you don't get sun glare in terms of sound systems you can't have speakers like facing the wall they've got to be facing the crowds that it doesn't interfere with the athletes so they can focus and again with spotlighting as well

you can't have the the matting where the boulder wall is and the lights underneath they can't be too close and because of the climbers and being in their eyes and there are quite a few I likened I liken burn to you uh you know if you went to a Broadway show when it got down to the the final bits of it you know the combined final or the boulder final where they're about to crown the world champion in bouldering I likened it a bit to a Broadway

show in all the requirements that were needed for production for the for the stream and the and the tv and the broadcast from commentary from lighting from the sound system for the crowd to be able to do highlight reel so you can see appeals if you're judging and and the federation's putting an appeal to the scoring to the timing system yeah it's quite complicated when you drill down into all the bits that come together to make this perfect

moment in time where you where you see some athletic prowess from some of the top climbers in the world it's pretty pretty incredible I'm not sure if that answered the question but essentially there are quite a few few behind the scenes technical stuff and then don't forget the warm-up space because the athletes need to get warm and if they're not getting warm then that doubles as the isolation space so they're isolation and and you got

to think of the comfort because they could be in there for a good few hours in isolation depending on the number of athletes and you have to think of their comfort and the coaches comfort and is there enough space for them all to be in there at the same time because that's also a consideration and if you have any overlaps in your schedule then does that mean there's gonna be people overlapping in this in this area and so do you have enough

space and is everything accessible if you've got para coming in you know are the toilets nearby yeah a lot goes a lot goes into making the events happen really a lot more than I think um a lot more than I think people understand yeah I mean that's hopefully why we had you on so that now people know oh yeah I hope so I hope we've done a good job and people found it interesting and I mean being an event organizer it's not for the faint-hearted

but ah you have such a good time and you meet such a range of people and you get to work on some great great events and all the planning and all the sweat and tears is just completely worth it when you get those perfect moments of athletes doing what they do best yeah and

the crowd go wild yeah yeah it does sound like a lot of fun and really quick question that just popped into my mind do you sort of have an estimate of like how much it costs to put on um like a world cup level event maybe yeah so a world cup can be anywhere in the region depending on what base facilities you have and what I mean by that is depending on if you own anything yourself as a federation so you can be anywhere from 80,000 upwards

you also have the calendar fee so you have a fee to help to be on the calendar with the IFSC to make sure that you get the results service and the officials and the jury presidents and the route setters so you have that fee as well so it can be upwards of 80,000 plus is a lot of that um like the wall setup or it's just like everything adds up everything adds up so holds walls uh prize money route setting uh accommodation for all your staff

food for all your staff um all the little bits like cherry pickets if you need to so you can work at height and podiums and yeah medals flower ceremonies djs sound systems um live streaming and broadcasting and so much that goes into it but I don't think I'd have any of it yeah okay awesome um well I think that's all of the questions that I had um thank you for joining me today um is there anything that you wanted to either like shout

out or let people know where they can find you if they had any more questions oh yeah my my email address is listed on the bmc website under staff so if they had any questions about events or anything of anti-doping or para then yeah feel free to get in touch it's listed there it's it's not um it's out in the public domain it's not private people can by all means get in touch and um if they're ever at an event I'm normally the one running around

so they can always say hello especially if I'm with the power climbing team because I'll be probably identifiable more identifiable if I'm with the power climbing team I reckon than if I'm running the event I'm probably in the background right yeah awesome yeah I'll leave that link um in the description for everything um and yeah if nothing else thank you again it was amazing to talk to you no thank you for having me and thanks

for the questions they were really really good yeah I really enjoyed it thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast if you're watching on youtube I would love to hear your discussion and thoughts in the comments below and don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed if you're listening through a podcasting platform I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars and you can continue the discussion through my competition climbing

discord um linked in all of the descriptions through all the platforms thanks again for listening