Ep 44: Nekaia + Sovarae Sanders - Comp Climbing SISTERHOOD

If you want a sister, Nekaia is the ideal, like, sister. She's just that interesting. Nah, let's not do that. If you're constantly having someone else be the, this is the special one or whatever, that kind of made me not want to pursue it. I didn't feel like I belonged there. Like, I had all of this, like, chatter in my head of being like, I'm bringing down the level of the World Cups. I'm not supposed to be here. I'm not ready.

I'm blah, blah, blah. Like recently we went outside and it was like the first time in like two years and we both did our first 10 within like a few tries. But everyone wants to know, are you guys related to Annie Sanders? Welcome to another episode of the That's Now World Climbing podcast. I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce my guests for today, Nekaia and Sovarae Sanders.

You may recognize Nekaia from when she recently made her first Boulder World Cup finals in Curitiba, and her sister Sovarae podiumed at her last USA Youth Boulder Nationals. In this episode, we get a lot of insight into their sibling dynamic as comp climbers. We'll hear about Nekaia's experience in Kurachiba and Sovarae's experience going through mental battles at comps. And we'll have some fun conversations about food and Harry Potter.

They were such a joy to talk to, so I hope you enjoy this episode with the Sanders sisters.

I'm excited to announce that my sponsor, Mad Rock Climbing, just came out with a brand new pair of shoes, the Remora Pro. I was so excited to try them on that even though I broke a toe on my right foot, I had to at least try on the left shoe. So I can definitely say that the Remora Pro is better than a rental shoe. But really, these are their softest shoe ever, which means you no longer need to worry about standing on

sketchy volumes and comps. They also have a crazy 3D heel that allows you to get more surface area when heel hooking and inserts that lock your heel into the shoe no matter how hard you're pulling. Feel free to message me if you have any questions about the shoes or sizing and you can use the discount code NOTREALCLIMBER for 10 % off your entire Mad Rock order. Back to

the show. Why'd you decide to do the haircut? Oh, okay. I love having my hair short. I've had it a few times short. Oh, really? Yeah, like I think the first time I cut all my hair off, I was like 14, maybe 13. I just really like the feeling of it. And I've been really wanting to for like a while. And I like, yeah, I finally was like, okay, I'm just going to do it. Ever since she was little, she was like obsessed with having her hair short. Like that was always a

thing. I like how it looks before. I like short hair. Have you ever considered like, full bald yeah oh my god really well so i really want to buzz my head at some point in my life i think it might look like a bowling ball but i like it i want to uh and i actually like the picture i showed the guy was like a bit longer than this and he went a lot shorter like it made me like i'm like okay i could look decent with like short short so maybe maybe next time you see me That

would be crazy. I would love to see it. But yeah, how are you guys doing? Do you guys have like a rest day today? We just got back like 20 minutes ago from our first session. Then when this is done, we'll go back. What is your usual gym out there? We climb a little bit at Movement and then the Rock City Training Center. And LBR too, or we'll go to San Diego. We climb everywhere.

Did you guys go to... the new or it's not like new grotto but the new uh since it's had all the changes not yet have you no i sorry i told you guys i was gonna go but then i broke my toe and i thought it'd be better by now but it's still not so then i was doing like lateral jumps and i wasn't wearing shoes and then i like jumped to the right side but my pinky toe like got caught under the rest of my foot So then like all my weight landed on it and then it was indeed broken.

Oh, that's so bad. That's gross. I'm sorry. Yeah, it's been like four weeks and I thought it would be better by now. It's not like fully better. So I'm going to wait a bit until I can like put on real shoes because I don't know. They said a lot of like good slab at Grotto and I can't really do slab right now. That sucks. I broke my big toe. It was not fun. Did you hear that

story? How did you do that? I was in a terrible mood one day and I was doing my like, I think it was like weighted hangs or weighted pull -ups. It must have been weighted hangs at home. And I couldn't find our weight belt. And so I was like, a chalk belt's fine. And so I put 40 pounds on a chalk belt. Whoa. And obviously it came

undone. Just like the plastic clip. and it fell on my toe and it broke the chip off like of like the like very tip of my big toe but i refused to admit it was broken and so i climbed on it for like a week or two and i could feel it like stabbing me but i was like it's fine oh that's disgusting as med i went to the doctor and it was broken and he was like he was so mad at me he was like now it can't like You might as well just keep climbing because it's not going to

heal right anyways. Oh. Eventually it will build up like scar tissue. And so I was able to climb through the whole time. It was so gross. I could like literally feel like the shard like stabbing me. But I could climb through the whole thing. And I just dealt with it. Wow. How long ago was this? This was, it was pretty like a while ago now. Right before COVID. Yeah. Like early, early 2020. And it actually, like, healed, I guess? Uh, yeah. It didn't, like, it took a while to

heal and then it was fine. That's good, I guess. Sometimes it works doing that with injuries, but I don't know how I got away with, like, going all the way through. He was so mad the doctor was like... I haven't been, like, putting pressure on it because I don't like pain. A little bit of, like, a weird relationship with pain, I feel like. He has a super high pain tolerance. And then just committed to it also. Yeah. I have a little bit of a sticky brain, so when I want

to do something, it will go. Sometimes I just don't process it right, where it's just like, it's not that painful to me. Yeah. Okay, so before we get into any questions that are too difficult, the first question is going to be really easy,

but everyone wants to know, are you guys related to Annie Sanders? We are not. I got like so many questions for that. Do you get asked that a lot? Yeah. I was looking at, I don't remember, I saw comments somewhere. They're like, yeah, just everywhere. It was like, hello, the lady. Okay, we're setting the record straight here. So there's actually, Annie has a sister. And so there's four Sanders girls. Like climbing? Yeah, she climbs. Okay, good to know. Have you guys like

climbed together before? With Annie? Yeah, just like with team. team events and stuff at training camps well i'll maybe have an episode with her in a month or so so we'll see how that goes but

yeah so back to you guys um how did you guys get into climbing we my aunt found like a climbing gym on groupon and it's just like we should all go because i have two older brothers that are very active and so we just went as a family and then we went i think my brothers were really into it they're teenagers So we went every day for a month straight. And that was kind of how it started. Our oldest brother's got like, I think we're all very like kind of obsessive brains.

But he's like especially obsessive. So whenever he started anything as a kid, it was like 100 % in. And so it was like immediately we went to the gym and we're like all obsessed, driving like an hour each direction, like fully in. Oh,

wow. Yeah. with a very kind mom who was like able to willing to facilitate that so it was like full obsession right away and then we got into like uh got onto the team within like a few months like yeah maybe a month or two like a youth team yeah yeah and did your um brothers also compete how did they do Very good. I think my oldest brother didn't do any of the open comps. Like he just went through the youth circuit. He didn't like the competition aspect of it.

It wasn't as much, yeah, much more always into outdoors. And then next oldest but younger brother, he competed into the open national level comps and stuff. He's like, they're both stupidly good off the couch climbers. Oh, off the cuff. Yeah, got that. When people say they don't like the comp aspect of it, what do you think that means? What part of it? Is it the competitiveness, the pressure? Does that drive you guys? He didn't like the pressure very much in reference to Elvis'

brother. I think that he didn't thrive under the pressure of it. It just wasn't fun to him. I think he started a lot older, too. I think he was... He was like 16 when he started. And I think it's really hard to transition into competitions when you're that old. And also just like my brother naturally is like go off and do his own thing. And like outdoor climbing is definitely like perfect match for him. I'm just like working projects and going with the flow a bit more.

Okay. Makes sense. You guys both keep separately saying my brother and it's like really confusing

me. because that person was like oh i guess it's just her brother and then oh wait but it's the same person people actually think that we're not related a lot like the amount of people that are like have known us for years and it'll be like oh my god you're sisters even though we have the same last name both have weird names and travel together all the time people will be shocked but no we actually same parents same family I guess you guys both look pretty different.

And with the hair now, too, it's really hard to tell. We have actually similar features. But it's everything else that makes it different.

And you also mentioned that you guys were homeschooled. I guess it was in order to focus more on climbing. What was that like? No, actually, so we homeschooled our whole lives. My brothers were also homeschooled, all four of us. And my oldest brother is actually nine years older than her. And so there's like quite a big gap. And so he was homeschooled like kind of before it was like really starting to become a thing. But we were homeschooled because

we lived in two different spots. And so we couldn't go to normal school. And so we were splitting time between spots. I see. So that was like the whole Portland, SoCal split. Yeah, yeah. I don't actually know that many homeschooled people. Do you get that whole like weird social thing? We, well, okay. So there are weird homeschoolers

for sure. We grew up with like going to like, sometimes we, like when we were younger, kind of actually really before climbing, we would go to like homeschool park day, this homeschool class, that homeschool class. And there are some

weird, weird homeschool people. But also I feel like it, the people that i've met that i'm like wow you're a really unique confident person and you really just like seem not scared of the world uh almost always i've like later found out like oh you're homeschooled and so i think it could go i either way and i think it's also really individual of whether it works for you or not uh i think also being in a sport while you're is a huge difference because otherwise you're

just like incredibly isolated in your people but yeah or oftentimes i should say not over generalize but if you have a sport you kind of have a little bit of that like social experience where you're meeting a bunch of different types of people and stuff yeah that makes sense so you guys didn't feel like you had like a weird transition into society yeah i think i think yeah i think more so We were like, my mom always told us to be like little adults in the gym.

I think that kind of caught on. We were like almost, like especially her because of my brother being like nine years older and not being around like in a class with a bunch of people her age. She, I think, was like more mature. Like she's like a little five -year -old teenager. And I think that part maybe was like a little bit of transition of just not being in the same age bubble as other people. But I think through like

the team, like being on a youth team. And climbing, we were around a lot of people, a lot of adults especially. And what's your age difference? Two and a half years. Okay, so sorry. Nakia said

that you weren't into training before and that you were just like being dragged around to the gyms. What changed for you when deciding to actually pursue climbing more heavily? Very complicated, but I would say when I was little, I started

climbing when I was five. So I was mostly like... playing with like legos like under the boulders and stuff like it wasn't climbing super she would just throw down the hubbies for hours i would end the cubbies and so on but so i would like kind of play and stuff and then as i got more into like my teenage years and stuff i guess also goes into a little bit of competitiveness between yukai or like that relationship but i started like seeing her get so many like accolades

for climbing and people being like oh, you're amazing about this. And like a lot of attention was put on her climbing. Now, I'm not saying this is actually like what happened, but this is what I perceived happening. And so it kind of made me feel a little bit less like I wanted to do it because I wasn't as good, obviously, because I wasn't working at it. I didn't like it that much at all. So I think that kind of

helped push me out a little bit. where it was not something that I wanted to do because I didn't love the sport and if you're constantly having someone else be the the this is the special one or whatever so to say that's kind of a dramatic term but like that kind of made me not want to pursue it and then eventually we went she went made it to youth worlds in Moscow or it was Moscow yeah it was in Moscow no it was France yeah anyways Russia we went there and I saw like competitors

that were my own age and seeing them like do well and seeing the international girls really like have different climbing styles and stuff kind of showed me that I guess we could both be really good at it in both and that it would be something special if we did it together like it wasn't that I needed to find my own path in life It also kind of showed me that I could also enjoy the sport, not hate it. So that was a big

difference. And then I got her to make me a training plan on the way home, like on the flight, and then went straight into training. And this never stopped, I guess. From an outside perspective, it was kind of like, it was really interesting for me because she's really young at the time. You were probably like 13, right? I think I was

14. Yeah, just turned 14. and watching her like go from like as like a little kid just like playing in the gym to like pre -teen where she was like kind of being forced a little bit to go to the gym just because like that's what our family was doing and like we do everything kind of like as a unit and like a lot it was like hard for me because I was like I need to be in the gym training for like hours on end and like I just remember her being like let's go home we were

in the gym for like six hours a day of course and then going to this comp and just being like seeing like i think i really wanted her to get into training like i thought that would be the coolest thing ever and then seeing her just like on her own have this little like spark of being like oh this is cool and immediately turn around into like I think me and my mom were like oh this is really exciting maybe she's gonna get into it and it probably won't last very long

but at least like it'll be fun for like a few weeks and it was like just like light switch of being like I hate training to like I love this I want to be doing this I'm gonna try as hard as I can and it just like never stopped of like super super dedicated like everything in um And I don't think I've ever seen that sort of switch before in a person. And it was really cool to be able to like witness that like, yeah, just how like a little like spark moment can

just change everything. If you also want to know what it feels like from going to, from like a very recreational climber who didn't really like it into very solid training, the first week of your life is the worst. It hurt so bad. My body was like. It was the first time I ever got out of bed at the ripe age of 14 and being like, I am in actual agony. I feel like an old woman. It was horrible. It gets better. After the first week, it's very easy. So you were 14 when that

started? I think I just turned 14, yeah. Do you ever look back on that time and regret all the time that you didn't spend prior to 14? I think in some ways I do because... I would have been probably a little bit better than I am now. So in that way, I do. I was also deeply unhappy around that time. Like, I went crazy, but just I was not happy with myself as you can be when you're 14. And so I think that would have probably helped that sooner. But it was some good character

building experience. And I think I needed to

figure out that I liked being. someone who worked hard and not just kind of doing the teenage thing so I think that was such an important lesson that I don't really regret it I mean I guess I kind of relate to your point of view because well my sister is like eight years older but I think yeah especially since she was so much older I was always kind of okay with just being like the one who's worse at things yeah you get like kind of trapped in that yeah but I don't

think I ever really came out of that, so. I think you're doing pretty good. You're doing some successful things. Yeah, well, we're doing different things. She never climbed. I climb. She does, like, skating instead, so it's all fine. But, yeah, I can relate to you there. I think the portion of, like, learning to try hard is really, well, watching with, like, my, what, like, 16 -year -old eyes at the time,

I saw that portion of her was like. I think every like young teenager goes through a phase of being like, what am I doing? Like, who do I want to be? And maybe just like a little bit of like a lost period. I think it was really interesting to see that like transition of being like, it was, it seemed a lot, but once you started training

to be like. a whole personality that's like I always say like light switch because it's like it was like a whole new person of being like obviously like a child and like coasting and kind of just like ah like doing life to being like whoa you are like fully committed to working hard in climbing but also just like in everything it was like the craziest transition I've ever seen of direction really like was um really interesting to watch it's nice that you were able to like

find, I guess, this to bring you out of that like funk that you were in. But with both of

you competing, I guess I'm wondering how often nowadays that you're both competing and like both trying to like do your best and climb super hard. How often do you guys feel jealous or competitive against each other during like competitions or training? Well, we've gone through phases and I think it's something we've had to figure out. Like we had, Like, I think especially, well,

as kind of, this kind of leads into it. Once she started training and working really hard, she got better, like, so she's, like, naturally incredibly athletic. Like, really, like, when she works out, she gets really good really fast. And I think seeing that, I was like, whoa, this is scary because I've always been, like, like,

uh. better like obviously I'm like older and so I was used to being like better than her and also being like the one that's working hard and so there was like this weird transition period of being like oh she's working hard but that's like my thing is that I work hard and like I was like I think I've always had like a like a lot of identity about being like a hard worker and especially when I was younger like I was really dead set of being like I'm the one I need

to be the one that's working harder than everyone around me. And if someone else is working harder, I'm going to work harder than them. And so when she started matching me in pace of what we were doing, it was really disconcerting for me to be like, whoa, she's getting better and she's working equally hard to me. How am I going to deal with this? And I think it was really hard for a while and we butted heads a little bit.

But I think... It transitioned quickly because of, like, our family is, like, very explicit. Like, if there's a problem, we're going to talk about it. And we talk through everything. Like, there's not a lot of, like, privacy in my family. Like, it's, like, we're going to talk about whatever's

happening. And I think it was just, like, a lot of conversations of just being, like, I think also, and I think maybe sometimes people, like, miss this is, like, our prior like at least mine she could talk for speak herself but my priority will always be like our relationship over any climbing like that's just like my life values of being like I I I care more about our relationship than whatever uh is going to happen in climbing and so like it might be hard and I might feel

competitive but we're going to like work it out to in the end to like be able to train together I don't know I want to hear yours I honestly during that period was pretty oblivious to the fact that there could be difficulty with that. Like, I was quite, quite oblivious to that. However, Nikaya is, like, if you want a sister, Nikaya is the ideal, like, sister. She's just... In her nature, she just, like, will not do anything

if it is harmful to me. if it makes me feel bad like nikai when we were like 10 we would fight and i would go out in the corner and she would come over and be like we have to work this out we're sisters like we can't fight like this and then do you want to pretend to be twins and that was it like it was just that's just how nikai was so it wasn't ever an option i would say i think later in like our climbing yes journey,

you could say. I started struggling, like, when I started keeping up with her is when I started struggling with it more on my end of being competitive and being, like, annoyed that she was beating me. Then I think I had a tiny bit of a rough patch of being, like, kind of, I don't even want to say, like, it would, it wouldn't, it would, as soon as we walked out of the gym, it was gone.

That being in the gym and feeling that pressure to, like, constantly like succeed or fail like every day in the gym that kind of got with me and then we went into team trials and nikai had a horrible back injury prior to that she had just started climbing and she did the best she'd ever done in a call at team trials i should say so she'd like development team and stuff and it was really and it still is it's very hard sit and watch in like a comp that you competed

in and then watching the finals and being like well I could have been there but I'm watching her but I also realized at that comp I was like this is so dumb that I'm feeling competitive against her because if I'm not having it even if I do have it like the the reward not it but the reward of like placing all the competition I would so much rather Nikaya have that Because I know how hard she works. I know she's very

talented. And obviously I love her. So I'm like, I so want her to succeed or do better even than me. And I've took that all the way because it. I think, I think like generally, like I've, I've talked to people about just like their training partners or like other siblings, like the competitive aspect. And I feel like there's like, it's always going to be there because of if you're ever like.

Like we train like every session together. And so like if you're ever compared to someone that consistently, even if it's like yourself comparing yourself, you're going to feel competitive. I think that's an incredibly positive thing because you're like that friction is like like I know I try harder when I'm like when she's beating me. And it's just getting away from the the like personal value or like negative competitiveness.

That comes with it. And I feel like Soraya has proven to me that she's really strong and she works really hard and she deserves it. And so like when you can get past that and be like, oh no, she can beat me and that's fine. I think it becomes way better because like instead of being like one -on -one rivalry, it's like if she beats me, like great. Like obviously I want to win every competition. But if I want anyone to win, I want her to win. I think that makes

everything way easier. I think also, like, other people, when they talk to you, they, like, want there to be this, like, kind of nasty rivalry, like, in the relationship. Like, the things that people will say to you, like, after Nakia's done really good in a comp and I've done really terribly. They're like, oh, are you just so mad that she beat you? Whoa. You'll say like, oh, I could go on and on and on about like the things that people just walk over. You're like, I don't even

know who you are. And you just were like, yeah, you must be devastated that your sister beat you. She's like, okay. So I think that is like kind of sparks that negative competition. But as soon as you realize that, oh, wait, this doesn't

even have to be. something we think about like this isn't we don't need this in our relationship this isn't like a valid feeling then it's kind of easy to just toss that away and so I guess you clearly don't have that feeling of like I'm just the worst one anymore no no also it helps in training is that she beats me all the time oh no I think that went away as soon as I found an identity outside of being the youngest that is like yapping at everyone's tails trying to

keep up. I think that is a foreplay. When you find an identity outside of that, of being like, oh, I'm not good. I'm a hard worker. And that's the identity, then that kind of goes away. Also, when you're not 14, that tends to help. I think also, like, being two people, like, every competition you go to, there's going to be, like, 50 people.

And, like, we're just two people there. And, like... I think that is like a really important to remember instead of being like, like even just with competitiveness with people, like other people, like not with us. Like I find it like sometimes people will get like hyper fixated on like, oh, I need to beat that one person or that. I can't believe that person beat me. And it's like, well, we're just 50 people in a competition.

However, it ranks, it ranks. I think that's like at least helpful to me to be like, not like, I think it gets so tied up in like worth. Like, yeah. Who's the better one or who's this? People ask that all the time, which is hilarious to me. Oh, yeah. So weird. Of, like, who's the better? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, especially, like, people, like, you, like, meet new people and be like, oh, we climb. And they'll be like, oh, like, who's better? We've been friends for, like, we've

known for years that are great people. And they'll, like, try to compliment me and be like, well, you're so much better than Nekaya. I'm like. I don't want that. No, it's just weird. What is your answer when they ask? Well, she's good at this, I'm good at that. Probably not smooth. Okay, we'll get into like strengths and weaknesses in a bit. Yeah, so getting into, I guess, like elite competition, World Cup circuit, stuff like that. I guess, first of all, you mentioned that

at that national team trials where you got into the national development team can you just kind of explain how getting onto the U .S. team works and how selection works and like what the national development team is versus like the actual national team yeah it's all kind of confusing so the selection process it's always kind of changes a bit but for the past few years it's been you could be pre -selected by being on in the top 10 of the

world ranking from the World Cups. And so the past few years, that's been Brooke, Natalia, and Annie. And then that has left around three spots for... We count five people into team. Yeah, five people into team. And so that's three spots of the team go to them normally. And so there's two spots to qualify for US team. And those are selected through, I think it's 40 % nationals or national championships and 60 % team trials. And those points get combined into

a ranking of everyone. And so to make national team your top five and to make development team your top like, I think it's 14 including. Yeah, 14 or something like this. And yeah, so that's like the qualifying series. And it's, I think the process of like getting into that was really hard for me. Like it took me a lot of years to kind of break through. Hopefully I've broken through now. I can say that'd be awesome. You don't know for sure yet? No, I have to qualify

again for World Cup. Yeah. We'll see what happens.

Good luck there. Yeah. But I think that's also like a part of like, the last few years of like our like um competitive dynamic has been interesting because of like both being kind of on the cusp of being on development team and trying to figure it out and um like this last year or two like I was kind of just being in and then uh sometimes and then her just being out like one spot out I think that's been like um something to like we've had conversations about and so even though

you um like competed all season this year unless you're in the top 10 of the world ranking you have to like re -qualify for the team yeah you get like bonus points if you're in the top 40 of the continue like the world ranking um but you still have to like go back and qualify which that could change depending on like how selection they decide to select this next year but um For now, that's, yeah, like the past few years, that's how it's been. Good to know. Thanks for the explanation.

And then real quick, just reflecting on your time in Curitiba, Brazil, of course. Great comp

there. Why do you think that? comp went specifically so well for you please excuse this brief intermission but if you're interested in deleted scenes from this episode where we talk about how they've went through 27 coaches and we discussed dealing with failure at a high level do consider helping support this podcast on patreon some other perks include a membership pin shipped to you after two months prioritize guest questions or the ability to submit video questions and more to

come The proceeds go back into the podcast to help me break even, and they help me improve the experience of the guests. If you'd like to help out non -monetarily, liking, commenting, and sharing helps a great deal as well. Back to the show. Why do you think that comp went specifically so well for you? Whoa, okay. Interesting.

I haven't talked about that one. I think... Well, so, I feel like the whole circuit has been like... really a lot of learning for me and specifically like i went into china right before world cup brazil and um i was like feeling super i didn't feel like i belonged there like i had all of this like uh like chatter in my head of being like oh it's not like i'm bringing down the level of the world cups i'm i i'm not supposed to be here not ready i'm like whatever the thoughts

were And I was ended up being one spot out of semis, which kind of just like opened my mind up to being like, whoa, I can I'm supposed to be here. I'm good enough. And also just like, what does it mean to be supposed to be somewhere? But I think that really like opened my mind up to like the possibility of being like I could do well. And I had a like a really long conversation

with my coach after. China being like what what how like I was so scared of like admitting like what I wanted kind of being like what is my potential to do like like the idea of ever like say even in the conversation I think I was like so scared to say like I want to make a final because it's like that's sounds so presumptuous or like like uh yeah like yeah yeah like Yeah, like I think

that I'm capable of that. And so I think that was like all those kind of thoughts and conversations like was really helpful to me, like opening my mind up to being like, it's a possibility to make a semis or make a final. And going into Brazil, like I think that freaked me out a bit. But it was also like just like opening up those like thoughts, I think. And then. I had, like, the most terrible warm -up from... Actually, no, it wasn't semis. It was... Qualifiers had

a fine warm -up. I made semis. I was, like, so excited. It was, like, my first ever semis. I cried. I was so excited. And then I had a terrible warm -up in semis where I was, like... I, like, injured my forearm a little bit. Like, nothing, like, real, but just, like, it was super painful.

The night before, my coach had texted me, like, saying, like, oh, like... we were talking about finals or something and being like i was just like leave the possibility open for yourself of making finals and i think it was like just like the best reminder of being like okay like i need to like have the belief even if i don't think i am going to like i need to believe i can um and i think it was like the best like thought to like lead into uh semis of being like

I can do this. I don't need to do this. I, maybe I won't happen now, but it's a possibility. Um, and then I think after like, I, I really like slabs and the first climb was a slab. Uh, and, um, I felt like I, that's like my little bubble is like, I feel like I could be confident on slabs. Um, and then after like doing this lab, I was like, okay, I could like let go of everything

and like, yeah, just climb. and yeah making finals obviously was like insane yeah a while but uh yeah i think that's all like a very roundabout way of saying like i think the whole experience was like crazy to have that like moment in china thing like i could do something like i'm really far away from it but like maybe in the long term like i could be i could be good at this um And then have it, like, so kind of, like, immediately, like, validated or affirmed was really, like,

a cool, obviously cool experience. But, like, yeah, meaningful. Yeah, I'm kind of surprised. Because usually when people, like, make a finals for their first time, a lot of the things I hear is just, like, they, like, something bad happened. And then they, like, go of all expectations.

And they, like. just weren't thinking about it at all but you still had it in mind when you were in semis maybe not in mind like I don't think I was well I think if I'm being like super honest I think after doing this lab I was like like I I my personality is like I like to like oh like uh like daydream of being like oh like uh try to predict what's happening in the future like it can be a problem but like I like to like plan ahead of like, oh, what is that going to

be like? What is this going to be like? I think I had moments of being like, oh, that would be so cool. No part of me believed it was going to like happen really. Like I didn't think it was reality, but more just being like letting myself imagine making a final. Like what would that be like? Because I wasn't letting myself think that at all before. Like at all at all. And I think I definitely during like the semis was not like. oh, I need to do this climb to

make a final. I was like, I didn't think that was going to happen. And even like after climbing, I was like watching the results. I was like shocked at the results to not think I was going to place like that. Then, yeah, even like I was like really on the bubble for a while and I was like, yeah, I was not expecting it to happen. So, yeah, definitely like no expectation of making a final or not

even like. like I think it was more more just like the opening of that as a possibility in the future at some point not maybe it's more just not telling myself I couldn't do it okay I get that and then how did finals feel oh my god like dream uh I love being in front of crowds like I was like I really really like being in front of crowd and that was like the most fun crowd and just like a whole I'm like I've been obsessed with the world cups like since I was

like knew what a world cup was like like right around like my first youth worlds I was like oh my god world cups I never knew about this and just like have obsessed on them and so being in a final was just like yeah amazing like the all the best possible in the kind of scenario you could ever imagine a crowd and fun climbs and swinging around and like zero expectations it was pretty amazing Okay, so now going a bit

into your strengths and weaknesses. I remember during that finals live stream, I think either the co -commentator or maybe Matt said that one

of your weaknesses is strength, I guess, if that makes any sense. So yeah, what does that mean to you? And then Sovarae, we'll get into your strengths and weaknesses as well. I think Brazil

probably was just second. a great example of like I my strength is definitely like slabs and just like general technical stuff like I feel like I'm pretty decent on like technical coordination sometimes I struggle with like power like upper body power but mostly just like hard climbing it's really hard for me like just like pulling like I think after the whole world cup circuit it was like it's been years of like having this kind of weakest being like okay this is I need

to work on at every comp but especially through the world cup circuit I was like okay every comp was like I could do all the sloths I could do all the like technical stuff I just need to be able to pull so I've been working on that she actually was mid finals at and my brother was sent into our family group chat like little gifs of, like, weak little emoji and then a strong emoji and being like, this is Nikaya, like, this is what's going to happen. Like, she says, get

on the kilter board. And that was always what he said. Good job. Nothing. It's just, she needs to get on the kilter board. And surprise, she's been doing a lot of board climbing. Do you feel like you've gotten stronger since then? Yeah, I try to. No, I feel like I've definitely gained a lot this year physically. It's just slow. I think strength for me is just like, I have to put the work in and it will slowly keep going.

Also, I think both of us, because we've always just trained a ton of volume and skills, it's been an interesting transition. She's supernaturally strong, but for me, transitioning into more intense strength training has been like... a fun challenge

of doing something differently and training a bit. And what about you? I actually don't know what my strengths are. I can hang. Oh, my God. Sovarae has the strongest fingers ever. Like, just can pull anything. Like, if you get her, like, yeah, she can bangle. I've already made

a little bit of dangling. I have. a really hard time with the mental aspect so far I would say obviously I've got weaknesses in climbing still like I think I need a lot of power and stuff um but my mental is definitely a massive weakness for me and I think it's a common thing if you watch me climb I've had many people come over in the crowd and be like, yeah, you're really good. You're just mentally just bad. How could

they tell? Like, what is the sign? It's pretty obvious when you watch me climb, to be entirely honest. Like certain scenarios where I really melt. Yeah, I just like shake. And yeah, I have. many photos of me looking like I'm about to start sobbing in the middle of the round and I am because

I'm just mentally melting. I think from an outside perspective like I went through a similar phase when I was like probably around her age of like I think like her climbing level is so high but she's like still gaining experience and like figuring out her brain like she's like 19 just turned 19. And I think that there's, like, this

little, like, period of, like, training. And I feel like I've seen that in a lot of different people, and I experienced it, where it's just learning how to deal with your brain and gaining comp experience to be able to, like, figure it out and gain those skills. Have you ever, like, tried anything to fix the mental game or, like, has anything worked for you or not worked for you? I've tried a lot. I'm definitely, I've struggled. The mental is such a hard thing to work on, at

least for me. It's been, like, such a confusing and, like, overwhelming thing to try to figure out how to learn how to, like, get over. Like, I feel like for strength, this is very clear. You go lift weights or you go kilter fort and that's about it. But for the mental, what really is causing me to freak out and melt? Oh, I don't know. It could be one of eight things. And so

I've read a bunch of books. been doing my little meditating and stuff I guess like I've been trying to you've been set up a lot too like I think sometimes like when you're in the thick of it it's hard to see like the progress but like it feels like you're never gonna get better like actually it feels like not to be dramatic but yeah it feels horrible and like honestly horrible um I feel like I've seen the little the steps of like like um more like gaining tools to deal

with different like pressures and like being able to be under pressure and perform um and also just like like learning what you think about your climbing and how do you want to be a climber how do you want to perform like what do you want to be like in front of a crowd like i feel like i've seen those things like really consistently progress over the last few years and you do a lot of work of like um like the in the session work yeah i think that's the biggest of where

it comes and i'm not allowed to do this That's not a behavior I'm allowed to do. I'm not allowed to be that. I'm banned from crying in the gym. Okay. That's not true. I ban myself. You're a big, like, gym crier? Well, yeah. Oh, I used to. We all are. Okay. But it's hard not to. When you're spending, first off, when you're spending so much time in the gym, it's hard to realize that this is not your living room. Like, you

can't go. like way in the middle of space so you honestly you think it's funny but you totally forget these things like you'll just see my mom will just like she spends so much time in the gym she forgets too so she'll be laying in the middle of the pads and you're like mom like get up that is I think helps um to set some standards I think figuring out like just how I can be comfortable under pressure and like in front of people and on display is something that i think i've been

working on and i think is helping oh like in front of a camera i hate being in front of a camera oftentimes like i don't i don't like that feeling like having pressure on me i guess so i think trying to develop that like being okay with that i think has helped also having an image of how like positive mental space can feel like are in such a space of a space or like a run of so many bad mental calms you honestly just forget that that's a like a possibility where

like i forgot like i was like oh no i just feel like i'm gonna cry through climbing like driving around that is just how i am and then you just taste that back and you can kind of understand like okay i don't need to feel like My entire life is going to end as soon as I step on this fence. Yeah. Honestly, it seems so dramatic and, like, over -talked. But when you're in it, it feels so like your life is about to end as soon as you step on this fence. So, like, crowd, not

good for you. The funny bit is I used to, like, way outperform myself in comps. And I loved being in front of the crowd. And I still do. Like, I think I'm not super, like, stage fright or anything. But seeing that, like, pressure, it just made me melt for a really long time and still does. I don't think it makes you melt. You're just figuring it out until you're in the

process. Okay. So, Nikaya, you said that you're majoring in sports psychology. I guess, based on what you've seen, like, what is your advice to her? I feel like most of my advice comes from

my experience, not really. my psychology major just because of being like a little bit older I feel like I've um I feel like I could give like advice in those ways I think like we talk about it all the time um I think my my biggest thing is like when you're in the thick of it like it's so hard to see a way out or like what it could be like or how all of this is like actually helping you and you're like learning and gaining and building and you can't because it's so slow

and it's so like messy it's really hard to see that it's there there's upward movement to all of this it can just feel like a like a mess um and so i guess like my biggest advice would be just like be kind to yourself it's gonna be like uh hard but that that the other side of that is like so important Not for, like, for climbing, obviously. Like, figuring it out is, like, great. And I think that once she settles, like, her brain some, like, her climbing ability is going

to be, like, insane. But I think more so just for, like, life, knowledge of yourself, knowledge of how to live life. It will be, like, life lessons you can't get anywhere else. Just, like, having to learn how to, like, master your own brain in such a weird bubble of competition. That you're never going to get, you probably won't get other places, but it's just so rare. Like I think, yeah. Outside of like sports and competition, it is so rare to get such a clear like image

of failure. In your everyday life, you don't have such a cute failure in like, unless you get fired from your job or something like that. Like the instances of failure are more like black and white. And so I think those are really good lessons that come with climbing is being able to have such a clear, you either succeeded and you won the comp or you failed and you didn't. And that is a very acute moment to deal with

or something. That's a good way to put it. Okay, so then thinking more about the positive side of climbing and World Cups, you guys travel a lot together to the World Cups. What has been your favorite place to travel to? Definitely Bern. Oh, my God. I really loved that city. I went in the river every day. Maybe, yeah, definitely my favorite place ever. It was so cool. I'm like a water person, but I loved it. It was so expensive, but I loved, loved the river. I think that's

definitely the coolest. I really like China. It was really fun. I think it's so different

from what we're used to. such a unique travel experience that I probably wouldn't have had was it climbing so it's definitely one of my top places I think yeah you did say that while you were there and I was surprised to hear it then and I guess every time I hear it I'm still surprised to hear it now um I know I remember um discussing with you about like nutrition abroad and like eating um because you guys have some dietary restrictions um what does that look like

for you when you when you're traveling Well, she's vegetarian, so it mostly is just bread when I'm short of the country. I'm long -legged. Oh, that's difficult. Yeah, I just love bread. I think it's nice to just end up eating a lot of bread. And then I'm vegetarian and gluten -free, and I try to eat dairy. And so it kind of gets very difficult traveling in Asia because,

like, soy sauce has gluten. every sauce has been and so uh that part was definitely a challenge of trying to figure out how to travel and like compete um but I've like figured out like if I just pack a suitcase with a lot of tofu and like bring most of my food with me that works really well especially in Asia um and then Europe is was pretty easy like I could just go to grocery stores the whole time but no yeah that was a little interesting trying to figure out how to

like I was so sick of tofu by the end. Oh, I bet. Yeah. Can you share, like, your best tofu recipes? Okay. I'm not the person for that, though, because I eat, like, the most disgusting food. Oh, it's not good. I don't. I'm not, like, a foodie type person. And so I just eat, like, for training. Like, when I'm, like, I don't know. I eat tofu straight and, like, and then chips

straight. It's so gross. I was weird. Yeah. i'm not not a great example for that you've like never tried anything that was like oh i could eat this all the time and it's like delicious um she sometimes mixes like pudding mix package oh that's pretty good yeah soaking tofu with uh like packaged pudding mix i actually did try making that once after you told me um it didn't turn out very good so can you tell me how to make it again wait which did you what type of

soap and glue did you use there was only one type at the grocery store so whichever one that was yeah and then I used like uh the jello pudding mix but the one I did use I think it was like sugar -free or like fat -free so I don't know if that's what was disgusting yeah you nothing sugar -free okay you gotta just use yeah just basic chocolate It's really good. Or the lemon one's pretty good. The chocolate's more normal. I think also this is something like we grew up

out of China. And so this was like weird food combo. Like we grew up on tofu. So I think I've given it to people like, this is the best thing ever. You have to try it. They're like, yeah, that's not good. But I love it. Well, I think it brings a new taste. I will try it again. Is it just like one packet of the Jell -O mix, one packet of the silken tofu, and then you just like. I literally just do it to taste. You just take a fork and mix the tofu. Blend it. It's

way better. If you're not lazy, just throw it in a blender and it's nice and smooth and it's good. Add a little bit of milk. You shouldn't do any of this. Just put it in a bowl and mix it. I will try it. It's good protein, though. It's the easiest thing ever. And it tastes good. If I find other protein recipes, I'll send it over. Now, I guess let's get into some like maybe

hot takes you guys have about climbing. I know you mentioned you think that losing is more important than winning. Yes. I'm going to offer conversations. I'm going to come off so negative. I think, yeah, so I think losing is definitely, especially for

like younger athletes. is way more and just in general is way more important than winning um because like my kind of like uh my values in climbing are like like for me i have like rations why i'm doing everything and so it's like okay like why am i climbing like it's not for like i really enjoy it but like it's taking up a lot of my life like why why am i doing it like um like because there is sacrifice of like not going to life school or like doing those things And

for me, it's like all about like making myself a better person and learning about myself, learning tools for life. And I think in the past, I've been like really scared of losing and like or just disappointed in general because I'm like I'm putting so much into this. Like I need results or like it needs to be fun to be worth it kind of. And fun being like fun in the way of being

like, yeah. it won kind of um and I think the more I've like been competing I've realized that like every time I've had those like super devastating competitions or losses I have like so much more learning that's come out of those about myself about my climbing like just making myself a better climber but also making myself like uh like a better human um and I think I see sometimes like um parents or like coaches or even like athletes being so scared of their like um whether like

if it's like a parent their kid losing and being like oh we went to this comp and like it just wasn't worth it like we shouldn't have gone like they lost it they weren't having fun which i think is so important to have fun like there's no reason to be doing this other than like like if you don't enjoy it don't do it um But I think like sometimes people miss the like factor of like that those hard moments are like where you

grow. And like that's the whole point of everything is like learning in those moments how to turn around and have those also the super fun moments. Do you have any thoughts on that? Do you disagree? Agree? No, I very much agree with that. I very much agree with that. I think there's especially like if you go to youth nationals, you hear so much like. Oh, I'm so devastated my kid didn't

make it to, like, semifinals and stuff. And I think particularly looking at this from, like, a youth athlete perspective, that is such a harmful way to think about it. Like, when you, like, lose, it's kind of more rewarding, I would say, in some really nasty way. It's not fun, obviously. Most of the time, it's not very fun. Well, you know, just from a fun perspective, if you win all the time, it stops being that fun. You just feel cool. You start feeling expectations to,

like, you have to keep winning. Yeah, or even just, like, it's not novel then. If you didn't work for it, it's not that important. I agree with that. Did you manage to think of another

hot take in between the time? I did. This might be a controversial hot take. I think most people who say that they hate comp climbing haven't been shown how to like comp climbing. Because I've met many people who have been like, oh, well, I just don't like comp climbing. Like, it's just style. Yeah, comp style climbing, sorry. And then have like climbed with them and like done jumps with them or done more like compy style climbs. And then they've walked away really

enjoying it. So I think that they need to be shown because it's kind of, if you don't know the new non -snow movement, it is like quite

intimidating. and it doesn't make sense and so you're just like why would I do this like weird jump that just doesn't make sense or even just like the power climbs that are called climbs I think if people are shown what it is and shown how they can learn the moves I think this is they can learn to like it quite easily now I will say my brother is yeah I was gonna say literally hates like he refuses to jump like we're going to jump like the gym with him like we're caught

each other's jump like it's so much fun he's like nah I don't con climb nah bro and he like legitimately hates it so I think that there's some people that just legitimately hate it but I think most of the time people just need to be shown how to enjoy it and that's just about like the style of movement not like the the all the other like aspects of like competitiveness that come with it Poorly phrased, yeah. Just

the style of climbing. Probably pertains also to, like, I think some people just aren't meant for competitive environments. But I think there's a lot of people that don't have the tools to enjoy being in a competitive environment. Yeah, for sure. Not being able to, like, cope with the pressure and stuff is, like, makes it so it's not enjoyable. It was actually really interesting.

I did a local comp for fun. a few years back and two guys made into finals who had never like I think it was their first comp before and they won they're both super super nervous like we're not having a time and then the comp actually started one started having a really good time and was like super enjoying it and was just like kind of having fun being in front of the crowd and then the other one was just melting like could not it was just not having a good like

a good time at all and so I think that kind of demonstrates that some people get thrown into the environment really enjoy it and other people just do not at all well but then that would kind of mean that you don't actually don't enjoy it since you're usually the one melting i will say from like more yeah a different perspective so right like uh like well while she's like struggles with i think the pressure aspects and uh even can like sometimes be like appear shy and like

when she's climbing she is like so good under pressure and i think it's like fueled by competitiveness for like for sure i love being competitive i like uh so much that sort of like tension of being like someone's better than me or i'm better than them or let's see who's better on this climb or just in general in life of being like card games really enjoys that i i would say that it's not i to change what i said previously i would say that it's not that i dislike that i think

sometimes it is a very fine like line between the enjoyment of it and not enjoyment of it or being even able to like cope with it and sometimes like this previous like stint of being struggling in comps was when i wasn't able to enjoy it or to be okay under that in that feeling that feeling turned really nasty and uncomfortable versus when sometimes it feels exciting and like yeah engaging whatever that makes sense no yeah it makes sense yeah okay well thank you for sharing

your hot tapes So last question I have and then

we'll have some like audience submitted questions. I mean, it sounds like you guys spend a lot of time in the gym climbing. Do you guys have time for like other stuff or like outside hobbies outside of climbing? Well, I do school. That is a lot. No, I think it is hard because like in one more training, most of the time we're like six to eight hours in the gym a day. It's like tough. But I really like to do art. I like to paint and draw. And I recently started swimming.

I like this before training. But I love it. Oh, my God. I like to do a lot of swimming. I've never been able to get into running. I've also trained to run. But it hurts so bad to run. It hurts. And now every day I can get away with it with training. I'm like, let's go swimming. I can't deal with the swimming. I just went swimming yesterday. Well, first of all, I can't really swim. So that doesn't help. She can swim, but she's like a little so -so and she doesn't...

It's not as fun if you're like figuring out how to swim. Yeah. It was exhausting and bad and embarrassing. I like didn't want the lifeguard to look at me, even though the lifeguard should probably be looking at me because I might die.

I have like zero, like my embarrassment. Oh, it's... like threshold is really high i don't think about that's good so i'm i yeah i can make a fool of myself the first time we went swimming she took me swimming and went directly in front of the lifeguard which is like a 15 year old little boy he was just sitting there me the entire time and i'm like flail it was the worst experience i relate to that no you just gotta like think about all the people that go and and go and don't

know how to swim That's me? Yeah, but there's so many of you then. Like, do you even care? Yeah, I know, I know. It's so cool when you get a little rhythm. Like, your brain turns off and you're just like, oh. Like, that's like, yeah, it's fun. It's nice. I mean, I can't turn my brain off. Like, even when, like, floating on my back, I have to think really hard about, like, breathing. Or else I'll, like, sink. So, for me, like, my brain doesn't turn off a lot. It's,

like, very loud. And so this is like the first time where I've been like, oh, I could like swim and just focus on like the rhythm of ice swimming. And just I'm able to have quiet a little. I think that makes sense if you know how to swim. Yeah. Like otherwise, it's just like I'm about to drown all the time. It's not quiet. It's just panic. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Screaming in there. Yeah. So Rae, what about you? I do. Yeah, I do school

too. I like baking and I like reading. so that's my like to become allowed to share your Harry Potter oh yeah she's like obsessed with Harry Potter huh like obsessed like she listens to it on a loop oh my gosh whole series like every time she showers like like obsessed and like in comps she listens to Harry Potter like she's like mega fan and so that takes a long time oh my god you should show her here She just made a Lego. Okay, I did recently discover Legos.

It's so much fun. Yeah, show it. She's been so proud of this. She made a little Lego Harry Potter thing. Interesting. So it's like instead of music, it's just Harry Potter. Yeah, this was part of figuring out her mental tools. This is something she came up with because she finds it calming. She listens to Harry Potter. It's very relaxing. Whoa. Oh, okay. Sorry, I've never watched Harry Potter, so I don't know what that is. You don't watch them. The movies are terrible. But the

books are so good. I haven't read or watched. I did try to read it, so I stopped watching the movies past the second because they were too scary for me. And then I tried to read the books

instead. But then the third... like something in like the fourth book was also too scary for me like i had recurring nightmares from reading it so then i i was like i have to stop i i just like can't to read it until i was like 13 or something because of my mom was like you're gonna get scared it is very scary i'm still too scared but they're so good it's worth like it's yeah the plot It's past. People don't even like Harry Potter anymore, so it's okay. It's like beyond.

I thought I wouldn't have to talk to people about it anymore after a certain year. I don't know. What's the new fantasy? That's old, too. No, that's old, too. You guys are old souls. He's, like, obsessed with vintage, like, old, like, children's, like, fairy tales. And she, like, collects the books. Like, old, like, vintage books. I enjoy reading them. No, I think, I mean, at a certain point, like, vintage becomes, like,

new again. But with, like, Hunger Games and Harry Potter, it's kind of, like, the cringe millennial thing now, I think. Not that it's cringe. I just, I really didn't think that anyone was going to talk about it. You didn't expect that coming up today. But okay, what is the Lego set? It's like a plant from the movie. Oh, okay. Yeah, it's really not that cool. I mean, it's cute. It's called a mandrake. And they scream and they like make you pass out if you scream or something

like that. Oh, maybe I did get to that part. They are like kind of cute, right? Yeah. Well, no, they're like a little there. They're little like ugly men. The babies. Yeah, that's cute. And they grow up. They get to be teenagers. Okay. This is important stuff. Yeah. The whole Harry Potter thing. Okay, well, I think it is interesting that you listen to the books, like, during competitions. I mean, I know, like, Mac Room sometimes goes around and, like, asks people what they're listening

to. So it would be very interesting if you got asked that. It's also during sessions. quite often yeah i think most people do music so that's that's good to know okay so let's get into some of the audience submitted question um the first one is from discord uh name is climber rph They're

curious about shoes, not so much the brand, but how you wear them for comps. So do you wear the same pair for training and comps or do you have like a dedicated comp pair? And like how broken in do they need to be before you want to wear them in a comp and how worn is too worn? My shoes, I typically just wear, I start just a new pair right before I start a comp and then just wear them out like in training sessions. But I have found exactly five sessions is the time that

my shoes are perfect for comps. Because they're just, you know, the Scarpa, the Dragos. So they get super soft. And so they need to be, like, just stiff enough. We do the same thing of, like, about a week before a comp, I'll break in, like, just, like, a few sessions. New shoes, like, 10 days before. And it kind of becomes a problem. Like I realized during the full World Cup circuit, I had to keep breaking in shoes. Oh, wow. You

did a new one for every World Cup? I think, well, they were close enough together, most of them, that I think I like, I didn't need a new pair every time. But it was enough to where like I now have like my bag is just like full of shoes

that I just have to like, that are like. a week worn in should i gonna keep working through to get through them but i also like i wear them till like they start um like until they get a little hole or they start collapsing um and then i i get to like get rid of them earlier because my mom has the same size sheet as me and so i give them to her and says she'll wear them fully too so i get to have my shoes all the time and she's shocked because she cheated yeah Couldn't

you just, like, wear through one pair and then keep that, like, slightly worn pair for comps only? Yeah, but I have, like, mental attachment to my shoes. And so I'm, like, I need them to be, like, the shoes that I climbed in the session before. And, like, I got used to them. So, like, have sweaty feet. So I need them. I'm used to

climbing in, like, kind of wet shoes. And so once you, like, don't wear shoes for, like, a few days they get like hard yeah that's true and so i have to be in the same shoes because they have to have the right amount of moisture i probably also like tend to oxidize slightly yeah and so like ruins your your trust with your shoes yeah that is true it's like the rubber

gets worse you gotta like get rid of that first layer or something okay um next one from instagram ellie joy climbs uh what is your favorite style of climb i love like swinging climbs i think that's so fun Well, I thought you were going to say slab, so it was actually. Well, that's like the other thing is I think I love slab because of like it's so like mental. Like I can think about like things and I feel like I really enjoy the thinking part of slab and also just like

the movement. But I like, you know, I just love to swing. I used to, me and my little friend went around a youth team when I was like eight years old. like exclusively the entire session would only dyno for like months straight and swing around. Like I really like coordination. I feel like I'm really scared on jumps, but any dynamic movement I get like really scared on. So this is going to make no sense. But like jumping on dual techs, I really cheat. Like I think it's

fun. I'd be like dual techs. I think it's just

like, or no techs. I think it's really. a fun style of climbing she's good at it is that i'm sitting absolutely like petrified of it so yeah it's a weird combo she's not being yeah she's figured out the technique of the no text hold it's like i don't get it i don't understand it yet what's the secret is it for like feet or hands or both well um i think standing on things quickly not like too violently but just putting your weight on the holds like very precisely

and quick helps a lot there's like so many different things that help that we can really get into but we would be here for like an hour of just breaking it down like okay so then real quick that's the that's a foot thing what about like hands hands you have to there's different types of like notex and so like the the finish that they use some holds are better text yeah there's there's better no text that sticks better there's others in texas are way slipperier or slipperier

um so you have to like kind of know the types of dual text and know how sticky you want your hands to be like how sweaty you want your hands to be so i'll have like a spray bottle that i like write my hands down sometimes but some holds or some types are better if your hands are like slightly chalky so you have to like figure out as what the hold demands, essentially. I would need to see more no -tex holds. I haven't really

seen any no -tex holds at the gyms here. Yeah, they're slower to come into the gyms than I thought they would be. I end up climbing them because of the training center we climb at in California and also the Salt Lake Training Center. They have no -tex holds, so we climb quite a bit.

Yeah, they're interesting. Develop a relationship with them. Okay, next one from Omar H5. Do you have outdoor rock projects? I haven't talked about outside at all. So honestly, I haven't spent that much time climbing outside. And I want to after I'm done comp climbing, because I really want to be able to travel and fully dedicate training to it. But I haven't had... Yeah, like I honestly have very little experience coming outside, so I don't have any projects.

Same for you. Yeah, I have never really been outside. I've been outside like a few times. I think it'd be something I'd be good at. I could complement my style, but I don't really have a desire to go outside at all. So currently, no. That's fine. This is like the new generation of non -outside climbers. Okay, I don't know if it's not true. I want to. After I'm done competing, I want to be able, I like doing things with full

focus. I don't like happening things. And so when I'm done comp climbing, I'm going to like, I want to travel and like, yeah, I think development is going to be super cool too. So neither of you have like gray chased outside at all? No.

Actually, recently we went out. outside like a few months ago and it was like the first time in like two years and we both did our first 10 within like a few tries and i was like yeah we could climb because i was curious how much how much we could climb outside yeah yeah where was it joshua tree it was good ego stroke or like

we don't suck okay that's all i mean no i totally get that OK, good to know. Next one from Bryce Wayne. What effect does fan interaction have on your morale? So that's kind of new to me because of like I think I just haven't been like at that level of like known as a climber. And after Brazil, I had a lot more attention, which was really cool. And like everyone was so nice. And it was

an insane life experience. But definitely, like, specifically for the Salt Lake World Cup, it was, like, a really hard mental thing for me. Because I think I got stuck in this, like, headspace of being, like, I need to, like, or people are going to expect me to do something that I can't do. Or they're going to think I'm this person

and maybe I'm not. Just there was a lot more chatter in my brain of being like, what do people expect from me or what are people thinking about me that I just hadn't dealt with in a lot of years because of like, I think early teen years I had like struggled with that because of just like trying to figure myself out and like what that felt like in competition. And then like I said, I'm like low embarrassment threshold.

Like I don't really think about that a ton. And so it was like the first time in a while where it was like really strong. And I had to, like, I had a lot of, like, really good conversations over that, like, period of being, like, okay, what do I care about in my climbing? And, like, also, what do I want to, like, show to other people? And I think at the end of the day, I was, like, okay, I just think authentic, whatever is happening is going to come off best and, like,

yeah, also work best for me. But it was definitely, like, a weird thing that I'd never dealt with before. oh, people are looking or they feel like they're looking. I don't even know if they are or they feel like they're looking. What is that? Yeah, what does that mean for me? I would say I haven't had to deal with this really because I haven't had any interactions yet. So I think

I'm at a different spot in my career. Most people, especially with Instagram, a few people with Instagram come over and recognize me or whatever in the gym, which was really cool. It's a really fun experience. It's fun to meet people. I would say I think it kind of bursts your bubble in a little bit in a way. Like that, like you have a sense of like anonymity or in the gym or whatever,

like you're just kind of doing your thing. And like having people come over makes you kind of like realize you're like, oh, people are like me being stupid in the corner. So I think that makes it a little bit generally just being like in certain areas, being like a strong female climber. you just will get more attention in the gym. And I think, like, I've seen you over the last few years, like, figure out, like, oh, okay, how does that feel? Like, what does that

look like for me? And be able to get over it, basically. Yeah, it's a little bit of pressure. Kind of the feeling that people know that you're, like, good, so if you can't do something, it's like... I don't know, like a competition opportunity. Yeah. No, I have this like weird thing that I've had since I was like little thing. Like I really want people to think like female climbers are

like really impressive. And so whenever I'm like compared to like a male climber or like in an opportunity like that where it's like, oh, people are watching. and they know I have results or whatever, I'm like, okay, I need to represent like pretty good everything I can. Oh, yeah. People are clever, they're strong, and it's like so not realistic in the slightest. But I think that, especially when I was like her age, I was like, oh, I don't know how to deal with this.

Yeah, I totally get that. It's like this feeling that you are representing like an entire body of people. Yeah. It's like a lot of pressure for no reason. Yeah. Just because people say the stupidest things. I think that's kind of probably what it brought up. Just hearing people be like, oh, female climbers are like pro climbers. Like, oh, I could beat them on this and that.

And it's like, yeah. That's annoying. Okay. Next one. And then one more after that. ZYXWL2015 asks, how does it work financially for you as a pro? I'm figuring it out. Yeah. It is really hard. I think. My mom is amazing. And she supports us through everything. Because, like, being in school and climbing, I can't work. Like, it wouldn't be possible for me to have a job. Without a serious, like, sacrifice on one of the ends. Yeah. Getting lost working. Yeah. And I'm, like, I'm graduating

school soon. So I'm trying to figure out, like, what does that look like for me? And honestly, I'm trying to figure out the world of sponsorship and what that looks like and how to get that and how to manage it. And if I'm being completely honest, it's really confusing. And I know a lot of, I've talked to tons of other comp climbers or just climbers in general about this. It's just confusing and hard. I think there's been a lot of success for getting financial support.

It helps a lot through USA Climbing. I got some funding for some of the World Cups, which was really helpful. Made a huge difference. But yeah, just generally, my mommy. It's definitely, the financial is insane. You have to have time left. It's just, yeah, it's a lot of money. It makes some serious financial, like, sacrifices to choose which one you're going to get. Yeah. I think we're very lucky to have, like, someone who, like my mom, who's just like, this is what we

want to do. This is where we spend all our money. Not replacing our walls. And, yeah, like the U .S. doesn't really sponsor athletes in the same way that some other countries do. But it's good to hear that you... Got some from like USA Climbing for the World Cups. Yeah, it's beautiful. Was it like just enough to cover your like travel

and like plane ticket, housing? It's kind of weird because of it depends on like not quite performance, but like sometimes they give it just a team and then sometimes it switches from the year and like there's all this like intricacy of like how they do funding. Like for some World Cups, everything was covered. And then other World Cups, nothing was recovered. And so it's like all over the board. Like, yeah. Well, good luck to you there. Someone sponsor me. Yeah,

please. Okay, last one. Not as serious of a question from I'm Ken Lin. Does Sovarae always get the middle seat when traveling? Yes. 100 % yes. No, it's actually how your mom does. Yeah, my mom. She, Nikaya, is like a very touchy person. So she'll fall asleep on you, like no matter what. So I don't really like having the middle seat because that means that she's sleeping on top of me the entire plane ride. And sometimes I'll make her sit in the middle or my mom's in the

middle. But yes, typically it is me in the middle seat for sure. She's tiny. She's 14. And like this wide. She's fine. She can be in the middle seat. Yeah, I think that's probably also why people don't know that you guys are like sisters because you're very different sizes. Well, kind of. She's like, I'm 5 '2", but I'm built more like this. She's like a little tiny person, you know? Wait, how tall are you? Me? Yeah. I'm 4 '10 and a half. Actually? Yes. I just mentioned

myself. Wait, I don't remember that at all. Okay. Small people come from a small family. How often do you find that that makes climbs more difficult for you in the comp scene? It has a huge impact. I think it makes things, typically it's not as black or white. Like you can't do the move because you're short or whatever. I just find that it makes it more difficult a lot of the time, especially

coordination wise. Like, moves are just going to be harder if you're tall because you have much more time in the move to, like, find the technique. Like, I have to have more power and it's a quicker move for me to get the jump, if that makes sense. My mom always tells me, she's like, my comp road or whatever is going to be

much more, like, up and down. I'm going to have much more big upsets and stuff just because there's going to be... inequality in the setting i think frankly an impossible job in many like circumstances to set completely even i think just some of the consistency is harder just like there's a just can't be a move where it just doesn't work as well or it was heinous yeah it's just also so hard to spot whether a move is like think of all the setters are like 510 like it's just going

to be harder to spot if moves are in unfair But yeah, like in gyms, I notice it being a problem significantly more. Wow. Yeah, I really didn't realize you were that short. Usually when I meet people who are like under five feet, it like really stands out to me. And I guess that didn't stand out to me. So maybe of tall energy. I don't like being short at all. So it's a good thing to hear. Look, always guess that like, like they'll guess that she's like five foot and then I'm

five six. and faster those heights no that seems like I get that like you give off five six and five foot energy thank you I'm not yeah maybe

that's why I think that helps okay well that's all the questions I had then thanks for joining me today um any like last minute thoughts or words of wisdom there's something really interesting about like um being siblings in and having like something that's like a shared interest. Um, like I think we are the extreme of that, of being

like having dedicated everything. But I think my family in general has really been like able to stay much, much closer because of climbing, like my mom climbs and all my siblings climb. And I think that's why I get so like, obviously I'm excited about climbing for so many different reasons. But I always, like, I really hope for, like, in my future, like, when I have a family, like, I can climb all together with my whatever.

But I would really encourage, like, families to, like, go climb together because there's a type of side -by -side play that you can't get in a lot of other places where it doesn't matter what you're doing. And it just adds a place of commonality. That's really cool. Awesome. Okay, well, thank you for answering those questions. Do you want to let people know where they can find you and for sponsorships? Oh, yeah. So my email is... No, my Instagram is nekaia .sanders.

And then my Instagram is sovrae, so it's just S -O -V -A -R -A -E. And then that's it. Awesome. I will add the links to those in the description. Thank you again. It was amazing to talk to you guys. Thank you for having us. Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed.

Otherwise, you are a super fake climber. If you're listening on a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars and you can continue the discussion on the free competition climbing discord linked in the description. Thanks again for listening. Thank you.