Ep 38: Chaz Misuraca - What it's like climbing BLIND

Boy meets girl, girl's a rock climber, says, if you want to date me, you better learn how to rock climb. Had almost hit a few people on bicycles and I was like really in denial on the fact of like how little I couldn't see. Great, now my kids are never going to look up to me. I'm just going to be this blind guy who can't do anything. And, you know, my kids are never going to think I'm a superhero or nothing. I like finished the climb. I come down, I look

at Katie. I'm like, what the hell was Rachel's problem? Like, what was so serious? She's like, well, you basically just told Jakob Schubert to fuck off. There's no money in it. So someone has to kind of take the loss to build the space for us. So I think we're all very appreciative of the people that do this for us. Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast. I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce my guest for today, Chaz Misuraca.

Chaz is a blind para climber from Team Canada and is in the B3 category, meaning he has about 10 % of his sight left. What's crazy is that he didn't start climbing until after he lost his vision. In this episode, we'll learn about his rocky journey, losing his vision at 32 years old and struggling with alcoholism, how to lead belay blind, and we'll hear some stories about run -ins with famous climbers that he doesn't know because he can't watch climbing content.

There are so many things I have never considered about visual impairments when it comes to climbing, so I hope you enjoy this episode with Chaz. Real quick, I'm excited to announce my new sponsor helping make this podcast episode possible, Mad Rock Climbing. I got fitted with their brand new line of high -performance shoes, the D2 .1s. They just came out December 6th, but you might notice a few of your favorite gomp climbers are already wearing them, like Oscar Beaudrin from

Team Canada, and also me. This is the first time I've gotten to wear their shoes for an extended period of time, and I'm actually super impressed with the grip of their in -house rubber. And of course, the famous drone heel that everyone says is the cheat code to heel hooking small edges. Feel free to message me if you have any questions about the shoes or sizing, and you can use the discount code NOTREALCLIMBER for 10 % off your entire MedRock order. Info will

be in the description. Back to the show. In general,

how was your day today? You said you're like

in a training stint right now. i am yeah um i actually just got home from the gym i actually was just skiing for the last two days so oh body's kind of sore from that but aside from that everything's going well yeah so like climbing training yeah well i've also had two surgeries in the last you know 10 months i think so i'm still doing a bunch of physio for that which is pretty annoying um i had hip surgery and a shoulder surgery but i'm in the midst of just doing the full Body

exercise. And then I'm going to the climbing gym this afternoon. Afternoon chatting with you. Did you get like injured? Is that why you need surgery? Yeah, I don't know about my hip. I've had a hip pain for since like before high school type of thing. And then I tore my labrum, some rotator cuff stuff in my shoulder climbing a few years ago. Never got it looked at. And then once I started competitively climbing. I decided

I needed to actually go to the doctor. For the last, like, two years, I couldn't do a pull -up. Oh, wow. Which you can't really climb super hard when you can't. I mean, it made me a better climber, actually, because beforehand I would just muscle through things. So I had to be more technical. So I'm really looking forward to how my climbing

will be once I'm fully healed. which will be a while still like they end up having to remove part of my bicep tendon like three centimeters of it and reattach it um and fix a tear in my labrum but yeah once i got that looked at they found all these injuries i was like maybe i should get my hip looked at because it's hurting worse a lot of days and then i'd get like some bone spurs ground off my femur so yeah i was a bit of a mess for a while i'm back to climbing now

um i technically i'm not supposed to be climbing yet i haven't really been cleared by a doctor but i'm just listening to my body and climbing at the best of my ability without uh overdoing things yeah better to be able to climb in the future rather than get a little bit of training in now yeah same as like when i was skiing the last two days i'm like in the back of my head worried about falling and then setting myself back so luckily everything went well and body's

feeling pretty good i mean i was pretty stiff this morning but um after the workout this morning i'm feeling pretty good yeah and so like what does climbing training look like for you right now it's uh mostly just working with my collar quite frequently and getting that down and just i mean it started off i'm gradually increasing it At first I was like, I'm not going to climb anything over 5 '9", then nothing over 5 '10", and then we've just been kind of slowly amping

it up. Basically just like getting lots of miles in right now, it seems, without overdoing it. Trying to leave the gym not sore. But we're going on a climbing trip next week to Bermuda, so I need to be... I didn't know there was climbing

in Bermuda. Yeah, no one really does. so my friend jazz who's been my caller for the last two or three comps is born and raised in bermuda and you know there's a lot of like i mean i've never been there but from what she has told me a lot of like really good deep water solo and there's i want to say bolted roots but i know they also use she calls it knots i think they call maybe they literally are no threads they literally thread rope through cracks and stuff and you

clip the rope from what i believe or from what i understand apparently it's not sketchy um they do replace it i guess sometimes and actually another para climber i read this in the guidebook they were referring to jim hewing who was a sterling ropes engineer and i guess i sent him some rope and he did some tests on it and it had been on the cliff for like 10 years and it still didn't fail like eventually it failed obviously but was still very safe to be climbing on even though

it's it's in the weather it's in the sun it's in the salt so that's why they do that because like if you use titanium bolts which are expensive um so yeah there's not a ton of development that has happened there i think it's all been done by like one or two people um like jazz has been one of the main climbers down there um so yeah i'm excited to go check it out but i'm bringing a fishing pole with me that way if my arm does get sore and such i think it's all like pretty

stout climbing so that way i'm not forcing myself to continue climbing can you like have fun i can essentially you're climbing like on the seashore the whole time um that's where the cliffs and stuff are so yeah it sounds i'm getting sore i'll just fish yeah and the water there is beautiful from what i've heard and sand is gorgeous so It should be a pretty fun time. And before we

get too much into things, for those who don't know you, I guess first, what is your disability and then how did you get into climbing and competing? So I guess my name is Chas Mazuraka. I am Canadian and I'm a blind rock climber. So being blind is my disability. I have about five to 10 % of my sight left. Like both eyes are a little different. I have a hereditary disease called LHON, which stands for Leber's Hereditary Optic Neuropathy. I was 32 years old when I lost 90 % of my vision.

I'm now 38. So like six years ago, we'll say. The way it worked is February of 2018, I started losing sight in my left eye. And by the summertime, I quit driving and my right eye had basically caught up. My left eye is a little worse. Like I classify as a B2. So I essentially explain in international blind sports, there's three different categories. B1 is zero vision. B2 is 5 % or less. And B3 is 10 % or less. I guess that's another thing a lot of people probably

wouldn't know. I know I did not until I lost my vision, is that most people that are blind, I think it's like 8 % of people who identify as being blind have zero vision. Like there's very few B1s. A lot of people, vision loss is a huge spectrum. I have no central vision. There's people who have central vision. It's like they look through straws type of thing and have even less vision than I do, but yet they can see and read something, you know, like 20 -20 vision,

but only through little holes. Where mine is basically just really blurry. I can see out of my periphery, which is, you know, not just left and right, like up and down as well. Essentially there's like a void in the center of it. And my brain's just kind of learned to adapt. I kind of like look around things, my eyes shuffle a

bit. And I've never seen it in clearly. Like even if I stick my hand out, like I can see my hand is here, but I can't actually see like my individual fingers on it, but I can tell as a whole it's there. And maybe imagine being in a swimming pool with no goggles on and opening

your eyes, you can see. stuff that's in the pool if you're close enough to it but you can't actually see anything clearly if that makes any sense you try it next time you're in a pool or the ocean I hate opening my eyes in a pool yeah it hurts it uh so yeah so I didn't know my family carried this and after they finally found because it's such a rare disease seven people a year in Canada get diagnosed with it so it took I mean, man, I started seeing doctors in February.

I wasn't diagnosed with it until December. So almost a year just because, and even when I was diagnosed, the doctor knew so little about it. She like had told me some false information, actually really, really devastating information in the sense of I have two sons and she had told me that they were both going to go blind, which, which isn't true. So like I lived with that for like a month or two. I remember I was pretty

like rattled about that. Cause it was like, who tells someone that unless you're like absolutely certain. Yeah. That's weird. Yeah. I, and actually it's kind of funny. She's a rock climber and actually climbs at the gym. One of the gyms I train at. Oh, interesting. I haven't crossed paths with her yet. I was telling this story to someone and I said her name and she was like, Oh wow. Like she climbs here. I won't say her name, but one of these days I'm going to tell

her that she, she misinformed me. So she doesn't know that that's not true still? I'm not too sure. I haven't asked her. Hopefully she's learned. But I mean, if she's never been told, that's false. So how do you find out that that's not true? I got moved on to another specialist. I had to see a neuro -ophthalmologist, which she is, to get my diagnosis. And then there's one doctor in Canada who's part of a research team.

um out of like ucla in italy like they have they work out of america and italy some specialists researching this and the one i see in ottawa and he knows pretty well the most about this disease out of like three people in the world so he then informed me that that is not true um like on a biological level it's passed on through like the x chromosome And I don't have

that or produce that, I suppose. It's been a while since it's been explained to me, but you know, in the making of a baby, I do not pass on the X chromosome. So yeah. You lost your sight

pretty late in life. Do you remember a lot of like, what was life like before versus after losing your vision? And in terms of like how you felt during that transition process? Yeah,

it was way different. So I'm, a licensed diesel mechanic and I had just like a pretty basic normal life we'll call it you know I grew up in a small town and just yeah I just worked all the time was in like this echo chamber a journalist wrote like an article about me and titled that I had to go blind in order to see like I asked him where he came up with that title and he's like well you said that to me when I was interviewing you and it kind of makes sense because I didn't

I wasn't exposed to, I guess, a lot of things. I lived literally in this little community, in my little echo chamber of like -minded humans, we'll say. And I never met a blind person before, never met anyone else with other disabilities. It's not that I avoided people. I just was never in crowds or scenarios where we were crossing paths. And yeah, my whole life literally changed. Was always kind of like seeking, making more money and having a better title at work and things

like that. And then my whole life just kind of like imploded on itself. It's actually, you asked me, I didn't answer. How did I get into rock climbing? Yeah. It's kind of like a classic tale of boy meets girl. Girl's a rock climber says, if you want to date me, you better learn how to rock climb. Oh, really? Yeah. So I was like working at a shop. And my ex -girlfriend had came there to get a heater installed in her van she was building out to then move into and work

and live out of. And during that, me working on her van, she had told me this whole like dream of traveling around, climbing, working. I'd never met any rock climbers before. I kind of thought it was just like far -fetched. Only crazy people do that and didn't really understand anything about climbing. And, you know, she was, like, very passionate about it, explained it all to me. And then we, I guess, started dating. It's

kind of, like, a weird... At the end of the day, I had, like, given her my phone number because I thought we had this really good connection. And I even, like, asked her, like, out for dinner that night. And she said no. And then I... I had a broken ankle at the time. So I was like rolling around the shop in an office chair. My goodness. And she then, I was supposed to have surgery on the Monday because it's on a Friday. And she had then like messaged me to see how

my surgery went. And then from there, we started chatting. And then like a couple weeks later, she came down to visit me. And we started dating. And I was already blind in one eye at this point. Just one eye though? Yeah. Because this was in like late June, early July. And I was still getting passed around from like doctor to doctor trying to figure out why I couldn't see. I was still in the mindset of like, oh, like it's just something. At first I thought I just scratched my eye at

work. Like I've had to get things drilled out of my eye before, like rust rings, like getting steel in my eye at work. Oh my gosh. Right. So I just thought it was just a workplace hazard

and was like, oh, it eventually goes away. was really optimistic that everything would just work out and then yeah her and I started dating and because I had a broken ankle she was like you know I'm gonna cut you some slack on the climbing but once you heal if if we're ever going to work out you need to rock climb because that's all I like to do and so I was like yeah yeah it's fine like I can get into this rock climbing thing maybe like a few weeks later I then like

went to go to work one morning And I, like, looked left and right when I went to pull out onto the road. And, like, I couldn't see. And I was, like, rubbing my eyes. And I was, like, holy shit. Like, I had then, like, prior to that in the last, like, week had almost hit a few people on bicycles. Oh, my gosh. And I was, like, really in denial on the fact of, like, how little I couldn't see. And I kind of, like, broke down, started crying and stuff. And I called my work

and told them. And they were, like, yeah, like. We've noticed that everyone around me could tell I couldn't see very well. Oh, man. Even though I just sort of didn't want to think about that, I suppose. Yeah, that's scary. Mm -hmm. But then, yeah, at that point, I was still, like, months away from seeing a neuro -ophthalmologist. And then, yeah, her and I moved, like, up north. I then did a lot of drinking and avoiding the

fact of what was happening to me. And kind of went to like a bit of a dark place for a while. But then during that time also like helped build out this van. I then got into a clinical trial. Actually, I should back up a bit. I then was told I probably had LHON. And then my sister had found an LHON Canada group that was meeting in Ottawa in a couple of weeks. I was just like, oh, I don't want to go to that. Whatever. And Tara was like, well, I wanted to take you rock

climbing in Gatineau for the first time. So my ankle was starting to heal. And Gatineau was like just on the other side of the bridge from Ottawa. So she kind of like lied to me a bit in the sense of like, we're going there anyways. We might as well stop in Ottawa. And if this meeting sucks, then we can just leave. So my sister and her were on my case about it. And then I finally agreed to that. And I walked in, never have met a blind person before. It was

pretty sad. I thought very low of myself because I'd only ever seen a blind person in a movie. And it's either one of two things. You're either this crazy superhero or you're this very feeble, inactive, can't do anything type of thing. And I kind of thought that's what my life is going to be. And then I go there, and this first man I meet is all happy and walks up to me, and he's like, hey, man, do you play hockey? I was like,

well, I used to. I can't anymore. He's like, well, just because your eyes don't work doesn't mean your legs stop working. And I thought he was sighted. I was like, this guy's a prick. Get him away from me. And then a bit later, he was on stage giving a speech, talked about how he rollerbladed across Canada and how he plays for Team Canada in hockey. And I looked at her, and I was like, well, that sounds like that prick I was talking to. She's like, well, that is him.

I said, well, I need to talk to him again. Like, how is he walking around here so freely and he's all happy? Like who could be happy with their vision like this? And like everyone here sees the same, like kind of. And then I get talking to Mark DeMontis, this is his name. Sorry. He like very positively impacted my life. Yeah. He invited me to come to a blind hockey game, which I was like, that's going to be a joke. A bunch of blind players are going to be skating

into one another. And he was right, just because your eyes don't work doesn't mean your legs stop working. Because everyone's ripping around the rink. They've all learned how to listen to the puck and to each other and communicate. And there really isn't any collisions. I mean, it does happen, but it even happens in sighted hockey. And, and yeah, then like, I never rock climbed before my sight loss. So I went to Gatineau and climbed outdoors there and it was absolutely

amazing. Yeah. Like, because I didn't climb before, I couldn't relate to how hard it was compared to when I could do it. Like, for example, like everything else. I would take for granted like things like brushing my teeth. Yeah. You don't think about like putting toothpaste on the toothbrush. So it's been a while since I've thought of some of these things. No. Okay. Yeah. Take as much time as you need. And definitely like how far you've come since then. Yeah. It's crazy actually.

Cause I was like Savick this all the time. Oh wow. Yeah. And it was really hard on myself. I'd be like, I can't even put toothpaste on my toothbrush. How pathetic am I? And again, I meet a buddy of mine at hockey and I'm like, why didn't you come up with this? I'll never forget. Joey's like, bro, just squirt it in your mouth. And I was like, oh wow. Yeah. Like brilliant. Is that how you do it now? Yeah. And now I don't cry when I brush my teeth. I just squirt it in

my mouth and it's like so easy. But anyways, I, you know, rock climbing, I couldn't compare how hard it had gotten with sight loss because I didn't do it before. Everything else I had to pretty well relearn. And climbing, you know, got me out in nature. I had to like try hard, climb these like epic things. And yeah, it was just quiet. I had to be like a lure in my thoughts or like essentially like remove the thoughts

that quieted my mind. Um, I was just like in the moment trying to figure out where the next hold is. How do I move here? Um, so it was very calming. So in a way it was, it was a lot better that you didn't get to experience it before going blind. Yeah, I believe so because like everything else, I probably, I experienced this with a lot of new blind people or people that I've met. I try to do as much as I can within the blind

community to get people. into sports and such it's been so helpful to me post I lost and you know it's the same old thing like people be like well like I used to be able to see double black diamonds and now I can't do this and I guess that's the thing I hate hearing is like I can't um I'm like well yeah you can like clearly there's going to be a learning curve but you can I mean I was just skiing double black diamonds for the last two days but like I obviously didn't lose

my sight first time on the hill ski double black diamonds i had to like relearn how to do these things i think a lot of people just quit because like well i can't do this thing i used to do as well as i used to do it but it's just like well you can get there if you put the effort in um so yeah so with climbing it was the one thing i got to do and i did it all the time because of this new woman in my life that only wanted to rock climb yeah okay and then i got into a

clinical trial in Colorado for this like a synthetic form of vitamin Q10 to help like prevent my sight from getting worse um so now I'm in Colorado all the time we like finished building the van we're down there and then for like the next three and a half years while her and I dated I basically like just toured around and rock climbed all over North America and we went skiing did all these things Um, I also like, so I'm an alcoholic and I really struggled throughout a lot of time

with my drinking, even though I was doing these awesome things, I'd go on these waves of like climbing and being really good. And then as long as I would come home or like back into like civilization, we'll say, and I'd be reminded of how blind I am. It's like when I'm just out hiking down a trail, following her, she's, you know, putting up these climbs, I'm following them. not really thinking about being blind. She never even gave

me an opportunity to really whine about it. There'd be the odd time I'd wake up and I'd be like pretty emotional and she'd be like, oh, like what's wrong? Like, well, I woke up today and I kind of thought I would see and it was all a bad dream. And I'd be like, oh, I'm not going to climb today. I'm just going to like lay in bed and sulk. And because she needed me to belay her, probably she'd be like. Well, like, no, that's not an option. Like, do you know where you are right

now? People would like kill to be in the side of this mountain that we're on. Like, get your ass out of bed and come. And, you know, I would resent her in the moments for that, but I can look back on that and I'm like super grateful that she didn't sit there and let me like, you know, put myself down in that moment. I then

was talking with like Ontario Blind Sports. ontario was the province i live in and i was like well like i rock climb like where can i rock because i could probably i didn't really climb in gyms like like ever i got been in a couple maybe just randomly if it was like raining somewhere for a few days in a row and we kind of wanted to keep up climbing and even that's kind of funny because like i learned how to lead climb outdoors and i would go to gyms even one of the gyms i

train it quite frequently I became friends with the manager there and I'm lead certified there and she had asked me she was like well who certified you to climb here I was like well you did she's like really I was like well like I obviously don't like act blind around you I'm like pretending I can see the belayer as I'm belaying and I'm not like leading on to like you know that a fact that I can't see very well um because I can belay very safely I just don't look at my climber while

they're climbing which during tests I do just to not... To make it look like you are. Yeah. Okay. Same people would be like, well, you can't belay if you can't see, but like that is definitely

not true. Like I feel the rope and such. And yeah, like instead of, and especially if I'm climbing out the doors, it's really cool because I, if it's quiet, you know, like I'm listening for the carabiner to be unhooked from the, your harness, like here at the... the gate close and i'm kind of like envisioning i can like hear you like put it through the bolt and yeah like i'm essentially like imagining everything that's happening up there um and then yeah i'm just

paying attention to like feeding rope and and how much slack is out all by feeling it versus you know looking and like how much to give you like i just feed your rope and if you're pulling i'm just like quickly reacting to it. And if I've thrown out, thrown out too much, I then, you know, pull it back in. Once I've heard you clip the draw, um, like knock on wood. Yeah.

Like I've never had any accidents and I, I have a lot of people that like ask me, like I, one of the first big multi pitches I did was like this big adventure. It was like a five hour hike into the Rocky mountains with this team of people

from Texas. And like we were in Alberta and i'd met these people a day before they invited me on to go do this climb i had no idea what it was i had no idea i've signed up for this like epic adventure and as we're like hiking in the one guy's like hey like i'm gonna do all the leading he's like don't let my buddy belay me and i was like dude like you don't remember i'm blind right he's like yeah he's like i watched you belay all day yesterday and you're just like

you're so much better than he is and i was just like oh okay like i was just like that's interesting that this man doesn't want his you know best friend to belay him on this like climb that they came to canada to do he wants this random blind guy to do it for him yeah well um and yeah and even on that climb like i remember you know i was only following it but like i had the other guy he was like a very strong climber he had fallen on one of the pitches and i was like wow

like little things like this had to happen for me to realize i'm not this and blind people aren't these people that are portrayed in most movies like i am very capable two of the people that were on this team of five that were going to this climb didn't even make the approach because it was so scary to them like i have a benefit of not being able to see things that i was supposed to be afraid of okay and i remember they pointed out where in which direction the climb was we're

going through the scree field rocks are falling and i was just like someone behind me is going to kill me with like rocks are you know kicking out so i was just like i'm gonna like trek ahead and i'll meet you over there and i was like sitting there for like two hours i need to walk to like waist deep snow at one point oh my gosh it was in like june so it was like 30 degrees out but and i remember i was just like i stripped down i was like sitting on this rock it's like you

know sunbathing and drying out and eventually one of them found me and he was like well like how did you get over here And I was like, oh, and I just like walked across this rock. And he's like, well, if you were to fall, I'm like, you would have died. I was like, oh, I'm like, I don't know. I'm like, I just, I could see that it was like a spire we were climbing. And like, once I got close enough to it, I could like see it because it was massive. I'm like, I decided

to come to the base of it. And this is the way I found to get here. And then two of the people were like, I'm not walking across that. And then they bailed. I'm like, you just walk for five hours in one way to. get here just to be like, I'm too scared to walk across this. But again, I had no idea that I should have even been afraid of it. I mean, in hindsight, does it scare you that you like run into these moments and you may or may not know that it's like a life or

death situation? No, because I'm very careful. I feel like I'm careless. There's like a controversial man, Jordan Peterson, like or dislike what he says. The one thing I do agree with is He's quoted saying, like, when kids are doing dangerous things carefully, leave them be. Yeah. And I am a kid, I suppose. And I'm doing things dangerous, but I'm doing them very carefully. And I'm not being told, like, oh, be careful and this and that. And I'm not psyched out. So I'm just, like, careful.

And I also use hiking sticks. I feel around with them. Oh, okay. Yeah. I guess I should maybe say that. I'm not just, like, blindly, like, feeling around. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I learned, I really fought using hiking sticks. Cause again, I was just like, hiking sticks are for like old people with bad knees. And I really struggled on approaches. And I remember one day, um, my ex girlfriend, I was like on my butt, like scooching around and people like walking by us. And it's

probably like very embarrassing for her. Cause like I, the hill I was going down, I'm now like leveled out, but I don't know that. And she's like, I'm buying you hiking sticks tomorrow. And I was like, quit being ridiculous. I'm not using hiking sticks. She was like, Chaz, like, stop and like, think about yourself right now. And I like feeling around, like I'm on flat ground and I'm like crawling on my butt. I remember I got like a bit of a breakdown. I was like,

damn, I can't even walk on flat ground. It's ridiculous. And then I got hiking sticks and my whole life changed. I can like, I mean, I've had friends that have, you know, if I've been to the crag before, I know how to get there. And I'm like ahead of everyone. Like, dude, like what took you so long? Like, well, we don't have your fancy hiking sticks. We can't, you know, get here as quick as you. And it's just like,

wow, like here I could barely walk. And I get these like, you know, two little things in my hand. And now I'm just like powering through just confidently. And again, like I don't always know where I'm going or like what I'm stepping on. Maybe not even be on trail sometimes. But if I know the general direction, I just kind of like haul ass and get there. Okay. I'm getting the picture that you were like very stubborn in your own relationship and she, uh, she helped

you through a lot of this. Yeah, she did. She, like, I'm very grateful for the time that we had together and the things that I was able to, I think losing your sight, a lot of people I've experienced kind of go like one of two ways that feels maybe as with most disabilities, you know, it's very easy to go into like a very dark place and just like, stay there and you know i would have moved back home to my parents house and probably just like drank myself to death type

of thing and felt sorry for myself and oh poor me and i never i mean i did have those experiences but because i was out doing these awesome things and climbing i yeah my whole life just kind of like blew up yeah i guess i'm back to the comp climbing I then, you know, I started playing blind hockey. I then heard about there being a Team Canada. So that was a goal of mine. I wanted to make the Canadian blind hockey team. And I was going to a tournament and then I got

a phone call. I never actually even asked her, but the woman that runs CEC, the Climbing National Federation, she had called me. And I remember being in Bulk Barn, and it's like a store here in Canada. It's like Costco. Yeah, well, better, but less. Oh, wow. Okay. You buy bulk food. I go there to buy seeds and such that I mix in my yogurt. Okay. But anyways, she had called me, introduced herself, and I don't even know how she got my number. I should ask her that

sometime. But anyways. She was like, hey, like, there's this World Cup coming up in Salt Lake City. Would you like to be the first blind or visually impaired climber to represent Canada at an international climbing event? And I was like, yeah, sure. No idea what that even meant. And then that's how I, like, started all this journey of comp climbing. And I'd never even heard of a collar. Like, didn't even know what that was, even though, like, friends of mine.

Would sometimes, I guess, spray beta at me, but sometimes wouldn't. Like, I can remember my buddy, Matt, who I was talking about. We were, like, climbing in Vegas, and I'd come down, and he'd be like, dude, like, what are you doing? Like, you're holding this little crimp. There's this fucking jug beside it. And I'm like, a lot of my friends forget I can't see. Okay, yeah. And I'm just like, dude, I can't see the big jug beside me. Like, you could have told me to move

my hand over. Yeah. Like, I make a lot of climbs

harder than they need to be. Going back a little, when you are climbing, I guess most of the time when you're climbing outside or not climbing in a competition format, you are just climbing without getting information about the climb or without a caller? Yes and no. A lot of times, depending where I'm climbing, like in Red Rocks, where the rock is red, you have people chalk.

up their hands so like there's white on the rock i can see when i'm close enough to that ah okay to tell at least where the general direction of where i start feeling will be and i may i won't i don't know is that a gaston am i under clinging it is sometimes it's even misleading because people may touch something and then realize oh you need to like bump to something else why just touch the first thing if like oh there is a hole there i'll use it even though there's

an even better hold somewhere else. So if I'm climbing with someone who knows the route, because it's harder to see rock shapes, they can then say to me, like, you know, go up further, move your hand like this, give me some beta that way. But like outdoor calling is a little harder. Sometimes people will tick things. So they'll be like, hey, when you see this tick mark, when you're there, tell me when you have to tick,

because they maybe can't see me. and then they'll maybe explain something to me there um to the point of like i've even had people carry like charcoal with them if i've been climbing places where the rock is very white so like white on white and they'll like tick things with like a piece of you know campfire um and yeah so it's a lot of feeling around um people do call for

me if they if they can Okay. So then, yeah, going back to your, I guess like first competition experience, what was that like? It was pretty awesome. Cause then, yeah, they'd, I was in like a zoom call. They'd asked me to bring a caller with me. Like what the hell is a caller? And then they explained to me that I can have someone there that can help, you know, tell me how to grab the holds and like sequence my moves and stuff like that. And I was like, Oh, like, well,

I don't really have anyone to bring. And they're like, well, don't you like a climbing partner and my girlfriend i just broke up in january this is now may and i was like no i'm like i don't like my climbing partner was my girlfriend i doubt she wants to come okay and call for me yeah and then i was like anyone else and it was like american and stuff like well like an american can come so i'd actually asked it's kind of like a crazy part of my life as well as And I asked

this friend of mine, he was like, you know, one of my best friends. And it was like a week or two before the event. He had then like started dating my girlfriend when we broke up and he hadn't told me about it. Whoa. Okay, wait a minute. Okay, that's kind of. It turned out to be a really good thing. Okay. I didn't, he had sent me this big message before him because he was going to

be my caller. And then he. my friend had told him he's like you got to come out and like tell chas this enough of you like doing spanish back type of thing and he then wrote me this big big uh message and i uh i read it i was like devastated and like i remember screenshotting it and like sending it to like i'm in a 12 -step program i got i quit drinking like you know a few days after my uh girlfriend left me um Oh, that's good, I guess. Yeah, it was. It was really necessary.

I mean, I'm not trying to, like, bad talk her. She had her reasons, and I stand by them. But, like, yeah, she, like, left me in a parking lot in Las Vegas. Oh, my God. Okay. And, yeah, it was, like, awful. But it was very necessary for that to happen for me to, I now didn't have someone, like, asking me to quit drinking. I was just, like, all alone. I kind of came to that conclusion on my own. I mean, even my friend who is now, they're now married. It's like, I'm proud for

them. He then took me to get like a PCR COVID test. And I remember asking him like, oh, take me to the liquor store because I have like another two days before my flight home. And he looked at me and was like, Chaz, if you could see yourself, he's like, you would know that you're not going to be allowed to get on an airplane. He's like, you look ridiculous right now. Because I've just been drinking day in and day out for a few days

now. And he's like, you should go and eat an edible and just pass out for the next day and get home and whatever. And then I went back to my hotel room. And I still had booze there. And I heard what he had said. And I've never drank another day in my life. And I never will. So I then flew home. And then my friend Matt drove me to the airport and he suggested that maybe I try going to like a 12 -step program. And then, and I did. And yeah, I've been so, like, you

have to do a lot of work. You don't just join a program and magically you now don't have problems anymore. Because again, like alcohol wasn't my problem. It was what I used as a solution to all my problems that I didn't know how to deal with. But anyway, so then I screenshot that message sent to my sponsor. And he's like, well, you need to pray for them to be. And in the message, I guess my friend had asked me to forgive him.

So my sponsor was like, well, you need to forgive them and pray for them to be healthy and happy and have everything in life that you want. And I remember being like, that's not at all what I want for them. And he was just like, yeah,

but again, this man had never. misled me so I was like I'm just gonna keep following his guidance and and I did pray for that repeatedly and eventually I did believe it and I do truthfully I am hoping that they are having a grateful wonderful life together but then anyways that then takes me to I now don't have a caller yeah that was quite a roundabout story that was good to know yeah I kind of went off topic there I do that a bit sometimes but uh It's getting me to where sometimes

in life I've learned that these awful things happen. I'm just like, why me? And afterwards, there's a quote I've heard. It's like, life is lived forward but understood backwards. And that right there is a very important part of my life where in the moment I was like, oh, this couldn't be any worse. And it turned out to be such a great thing because I then am on this Zoom call with the Canadian team. I was like, well, can one of the other pair of climbers call for me?

And they're like, no, like they can't see the

roots and stuff. I was like, it's like, well, like I have like a week or two. I don't, how am I going to get someone to call for me? And then they had also said in the Zoom call that we would have access to watch the able -bodied climbers compete because they had, because of COVID and stuff, they had like back -to -back comps, if I remember correctly. So then I was like, oh, like, well, can one of the other Canadians

that are going to be there call for me? keep in mind, like, I don't know any of these people. Never even heard of them. Cause I don't, I don't comp climb. Don't know anything about comp climbing. And the one guy who was on the call was like, yeah, he's like, I know an athlete who I think would be like really interested in this opportunity. And then like an hour later, I get like an email from someone named Alana Yip. And I was just like, oh, cool. Alana Yip, neat. She, this woman

wants to help call for me. I remember like the

next day. being in the climbing gym and my phone rang it was elena yep because she'd email me like here's my number i'm going to call you tomorrow remember the manager of the climbing gym could read the big font on my phone she's like why does elena yep have your phone number i'm like who the hell's elena yep because like she's like so stoked right and again like i hadn't known anything it's like i have a second time i've ever heard her name not knowing that she's like

the most badass rock climber in canada and but I was like very ignorant to all of that and then yeah like Alana and I then like you know met we talked on the phone she was like yeah like you know like I think it'd be an awesome opportunity to like you know help you and be your caller and stuff and then we'd met in Salt Lake City like a day or two days before my comp like we climbed once together and then next thing you know we like jump into a world cup and and yeah

we like ended up crushing it and uh yeah and then like i said that was like the cherry on top of the story of my girlfriend and friend like getting together and stuff like it was that had to happen in order to like lead me to you know meet like get to like climb with eleni up and have her like literally in my ear while i'm rock climbing and yeah like i said i i'm really happy for my ex and my friend that they got to go their way and stuff and it then allowed me

to go you know it closed the door for me like it's just redirecting me somewhere else um and yeah like my life turned like I have a great life now and I get to do a lot of like awesome things like I ended up winning we got silver medal in that competition um oh nice yeah congrats yeah I was sick and then yeah like since then I've got to do like a ton of climbing like all over in Europe and stuff like that as well. I've went to a couple of world cups there, world championships.

Um, you know, I get to like hang out with like, you know, literally the best female log climber in Canada. Um, where like I, my, my path never would have crossed hers if it wasn't for that happening type of thing. It's really interesting that you like thinking about you not knowing, like being active in competition climbing and

not really knowing any of like the other competition climbers um is there like a is there like a big name that you just didn't know of like what's the biggest name that you feel like you had no idea about Please excuse this brief intermission, but if you're interested in deleted scenes from this episode where we talk about run -ins with famous pro climbers and what good versus bad calling sounds like, do consider helping support

this podcast on Patreon. Some other perks include a membership pin shipped to you after two months, prioritize guest questions or the ability to submit video questions, and more to come. The proceeds go back into the podcast to help me break even, and they help me improve the experience of the guest. If you'd like to help out non -monetarily, liking, commenting, and sharing helps a great deal as well. Back to the show. Well, I'll tell you a story. In Bern, Switzerland, I was there.

And again, I had to have these crazy moments. So the men's lead world championship was happening.

So I go in this big arena. and i can't see so that i'm like asking the security guard hey i'm blind can i go and stand like down there with like the photographers and stuff so i can try to get closer and i'm standing on there like i run into a friend of mine she gives me one of her cameras i have this like huge telephoto lens i'm trying to zoom in and the crowd's going crazy and like i'm zooming in but i can still just see like this blur i can now like tell where

this body is but like i have no idea what he's grabbing what he's doing and i remember like The crowd's going nuts. I remember being like, fuck, like, I wish I could see what was going on up there. And then all of a sudden this like voice in my head came in and was like, Chaz, if you could see, you wouldn't be here right now. I was like, I wouldn't be standing here. I wouldn't even be a rock climber. I wouldn't be in Switzerland at the world championships.

And all of a sudden I was just okay with not being able to see. And who this was, was Jakob Schubert, who I'd never heard of before. Cause again, unless I've been somewhere with Atlanta. And she's like, introduce me to someone. Cause again, like I don't look up things on internet, on the internet. And like, I'm not reading magazines. So I think that's also really cool because I meet these people who it's just like, oh, this

is so -and -so. And I'm like, oh, hey. And I just talk to them like some other climber and I'm not fanboying over them. And I feel like they get to have like a regular interaction with me that I feel a lot of people that are in the spotlight don't get to have that often. So again, like being blind is another, there's a lot of benefits to it. I mean, in a roundabout way. But so then the next day I'm in the gym. I remember my friend Katie's blinding me. There was like

this cool like outdoor pillar at this gym. Like this outdoor climbing wall. And I'm like cruxing out hard. And my friend Rachel, who's a para climber, comes over and she's like yelling at me. She's like, come down. I want you to meet someone. And I'm like. can you shut up? Like I'm trying to climb. She's like, no, like stop, come down. I remember being like, can you just fuck off right now? And tell me about the fall. I'm like stressing hard. Yeah. And then I like

finished the climb. I come down, I look at Katie. I'm like, what the hell was Rachel's problem? Like what was so serious? She's like, well, you basically just told Jakob Schubert to fuck off. And I was like, oh my God. Well, there was my one opportunity of, you know, meeting the world champion rock climber who like just got brought over here to like say hi to me. And again, I'm looking down. I can't see them. I can hear Rachel's voice. And I'm just thinking, we're literally

traveling around Europe right now together. You can wait three minutes. But obviously, yeah. So we never ever did meet. But I'm sure one day my path will cross. Oh, no, you didn't meet? No. Oh, no. Well, he's a busy dude. He just won the world championship. He's making his rounds. I think him and Adam Ondra are in the gym signing autographs and stuff. And yeah, somehow Rachel got him. alone for a few minutes and was like, come over here. There's this Canadian guy I want

you to meet. So maybe one of these days I'll tell him the story and we'll see if he remembers this interaction. So I'm sure very few people like talk to him in that manner. Yeah. I wasn't saying it to him. I was saying it to her mostly. We're really good friends. So she wouldn't have been offended by it. And again, like I'm like above my bowl trying to figure out shit and it's not a time to be bothering someone. As a rock

climber, she should have understood that. So if I, like, throw out some big names, can you let me know? Yeah, try one. Yeah. Okay. Well, so the obvious one would be, like, Yanya. Yanya Garbrandt. Yeah, I know that name. I have been in places that she's been. Okay. You don't know, like, about her, like, accomplishments? Yeah, she's, what are they, the GOAT. Okay. In, I guess, some people's opinion. Like, right now, she's

definitely... From what I understand, it's just crushing it and pretty well cleaning up house, taking first place at everything. I could be wrong, but is that not true? No, yeah, that's true. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it's just an absolute crusher. Okay. What about like a newer name, like Serato? No, don't know Serato. Sorry, Serato. Toby Roberts? He's from the UK? Yeah. I've heard that name, but I couldn't tell you anything about him other than I've heard the name. He, he won

gold at the, at the last Olympics. Really? See, that's it. Like I don't watch TV. I, I mean, that's a lie. I've been, after my surgeries, I've started to watch more TV, like listening to books and stuff, but normally I don't spend any time laying around doing that type of stuff.

And again, like with climbing, even climbing films and stuff like that, for me to actually watch someone rock climb, it's basically impossible. Like I must have like a massive screen TV. And even if I can see they're grabbing this hold, say it's a white wall and there's a black hold on it. Like I can't tell what the hold is. I can't see enough to know that. So I'm basically just seeing this blurb. go across the screen.

Yeah, not very interesting. Yeah. If I watch like a Real Rocks, like when I had my surgery, I was like, oh, I'm going to get Real Rocks and I'm going to subscribe and I'm going to watch them all. I watched like three and I was just like, well, some of the stories are cool. But I mean, it was also a lot of them were like the same old, same old. It was like man or woman goes to Craig. They want to climb this hard thing.

They fail. Injury. Whatever. It rained. Last day of trip, going to try hard one more time. Sent project, which is like cool and all, but like I don't get to actually see the holds they're climbing, the rock they're on. Like I think all the, and none of them have audio, like video description. It's like when I do watch things, I only watch shows or movies that have described video. And I would watch more Real Rocks or other

climbing films if they. describe them the one i was kind of upset about is eric weinmeier he's probably the most famous blind rock climber alpinist skier kayaker biker i'll be above clint everest he's climbed the seven tallest peaks in the world and he's a b1 um and he has a real rocks out and i was super stoked i think it's the first one i found and same thing like no one's describing anything so i'm just like shit like of all the movies that should have described video that

makes sense this one i think would have it and it doesn't yeah so yeah i don't know if anyone's listening to this that can chime in and make this happen but you would get more of an audience base i mean for blind people um i mean not just that even it's like when i lived in the van me and my girlfriend would watch some say seinfeld for instance and At first it was really annoying

for her to have to listen to these things. And it got to the point where she would now, even when I wasn't around, be listening to stuff on described video. Cause you'd be like cooking or doing work. Cause it, yeah, like it describes so much. I remember her and I went to a movie once. Cause I used to, again, I am stubborn. I don't like change. I go to the movie theater. She hears about like the described videos. They're going to give me headphones. I was like, whatever.

I'm like, this is so annoying. But I was like, I'll do a whole movie like it or with this. And then we leave the movie and are being like, oh, wow. Like as if the girl in the red dress had the key the whole time. It's like in the movie, they like unlock some box or something. She's like, how did you know that? She's like, I was curious who had the key, where the key came from. I was like, I don't know. The man on the headset was like, the girl in the red dress is handing

the man the key. And she then would start listening to movies with the described video as well, because

it just makes it easier. to watch things even my stepdad because i'll have it on tv at home and at first it annoyed him he obviously would be turning it off and eventually he's like oh i can now be like you know on my tablet looking at things while watching a movie because it's like describing it all to me you don't have to even look at it um so yeah try it sometime it's kind of neat how does it work with like the dialogue on top of it is it just like a lot of talking

at once Companies are pretty good nowadays. They, cause a lot of times dialogue gives you enough. And then when there's a pause, they'll just kind of say something that is important to the, like, for instance, on Seinfeld, you know, a Kramer kind of like comes sliding through the door. It would be like a man with crazy hair slides across the floor while entering the room. And it's just like a quick saying that. So it's now like painting that photo in your mind of this

man with crazy hair. And that's all it says. And then all of a sudden they start talking. You don't need to know what color shirt they have on. It's not telling you useless information. It's just giving you a couple little tidbits of information here and there. Interesting. Okay. So then going back to like comp clapping real quick, is there anything that makes you feel

unsafe when you're on the wall? No. Maybe the odd time if I... I know that I'm going to take a big swing. And if there's volumes out of the wall, cause I, yeah, I'm just like, Jesus take the wheel type of thing. In terms of like depth perception, is that what it is? Yeah. I can't see that. And it's happening so quickly. I don't have a chance to react. Well, we just had Canadian nationals a couple of weeks ago and jazz. And I went to that and. They merged some categories,

which happens sometimes. So they merged me with a B1, but then they called the category B3, which doesn't make sense because Terry can't just magically see a little bit better. So then I thought it would be fair if I blindfolded myself to level the playing field, but I've never done that before. And then when I fell, I thought I was just in thin air falling. And I wasn't, well, I mean, I was until I wasn't when I smashed my face in

the wall because I didn't put my hands out. I can normally see enough to tell like, okay, there is a wall coming. I don't know. And again, this is hurt sometimes if I like put my feet out and I hit a hole, then it like twists my ankle or something. But I've kind of just learned over the years to be more rigid. I mean, not even rigid, like learning how to like hit it and like absorb the impact. Yeah, I don't seem to get

hurt so much anymore. Earlier on, I used to quite a bit, but it was mostly, I was always rolling my ankles, walking before I acquired hiking sticks. So they were always like sprained and then I'd go into the wall and it would twist it more. The first like two years of my sight loss, I basically like always had a boot on or an ankle brace. I guess that makes sense in a way. Yeah, I mean, it didn't stop me from living though.

I still climbed all the time, either one -legged or dragging my boot up the wall, using it as best I could. Actually, that reminds me of this one video I saw of a climber. I think it was during some older World Cup where he topped the route or topped the boulder. And then he was

celebrating. He was really happy. And then as he jumped down, I think he closed his eyes and he... misjudged like how far away the ground was and so he stiffened before he actually hit the ground and then i think he like hurt his back really bad or something and that was like a really bad injury i bet bouldering is very tough for blind people it so i was just bowling the other day and i'll get to the top and i'll like hang there i'll be like i was like let go

And I just like wait for my feet to hit. And it's like feet butt back. And I like absorb the roll as quick as I can. And it's exhilarating in the moment, but if it's not controlled, like my favorite time to fall is when I don't know it's coming. Like, cause then it's just like, you don't have a chance. And I just kind of like naturally fall and like roll. Don't ever seem to get hurt. It's more stressful when I'm at the top and have to like actively think about

I'm going to. now let go it's like you don't want to straighten up you don't want to like lock your knees um because like things like that happen all the time because i have no idea how far away it is so i'm just winging it um terrifying yeah for the most part it goes really well but it took me a long time to get there i for the longest time i wouldn't climb anything if i couldn't down climb it and every time i'd be like freaking out trying to down climb because i'd be like

super pumped and trying to down climb and Be like, help me find my feet type of thing. Panicking, I'm like, I'm never doing that again. I mean, I obviously do, but it makes it hard to project and stuff when you are literally terrified of falling because you're like, I'm not just going to fall on my own, I'm going to break my ankle. But it took a while. That's why when I think like new blind people, rock climbing, it's always

on ropes first. right yeah that makes sense just because yeah bouldering while blind is pretty sketchy yeah no yeah i i probably wouldn't do it yeah i mean like next time you're at the gym go to the top like close your eyes no i'm not doing that go halfway then and and keep your knees bent because like you don't want to walk your knee yeah um because i've definitely had things like that happen where I'm doing the same

route, falling in the same spot. And I think I know how far it is, but for some reason remembered it wrong and like straightened my knee too far or something. So luckily I've never really injured myself too hard that way. And mind you, I still, I don't know, I was climbing, I don't know if you knew this or not, but in Central Park in New York, there's bouldering there. Yeah, I've

heard. And I was there and like one of the head coaches for the USA, para climbing team was meeting me in central park to take me bouldering and as i was waiting for phil i saw these other guys climbing i was like oh just like come and start hanging out with you guys and then they went to like move the mat when i was falling and they moved it not correctly and i landed not poor like i landed like feet butt back but i hit the ground so hard like to this day i was two years

ago like the bottom of my right heel is still like It feels broken. Yeah, it hasn't healed yet. I don't know what's going on with it. It should maybe get it worked out one day. Yeah, that's not good to hear. Yeah, but I feel like, because I let go, and if I could see, I probably would have been like, hey, move the mat a little

bit, because I'm not going to hit it. But I just have faith in people. Well, did they know that you have visual impairments? No, I don't tell people that normally, most of the time. Sometimes it comes out. I mean, eventually if I talk to you long enough, it comes out, but, uh, I don't normally, I try to hide it a lot of the time, to be honest. Why is that? Sometimes it's annoying

to deal with, with that. And then also, I mean, the main thing I think is, uh, having to deal with the whole, like you're faking it, or I know you could see, for instance, on the way back from the gym. Now I had to walk through, I cut through this school. And the kids are out for recess. And I was like, oh, damn, like, what's the rules with that? But I was like, sure. I'm like, I'm just going to quick cut through. It's

like 10 meters. I had to walk to the yard. And I had my cane in my hand, but I was folded up. And then I like walk straight to the fence. I know where the handle is. I do this every day. And then I can hear these little kids being like, that guy's blind. And like, how did he do that? And then, oh, he is blind. He has a cane or he has a stick in his hand. And I'm like listening to this conversation happening. And it was like

really cute because there were kids. And if I wasn't worried about getting like a trespassing fine, or I don't know what the rules are for cutting through school property with kids there, but I just kept moving. I would have maybe stopped and had a conversation with them to, you know, educate them a bit because again, prior to being in this world, I was unaware of it. And due to lack of education, like I wasn't willfully ignorant to it. I just never really thought of looking

into what blindness is. but anyways i'll have those same interactions with adults and stuff and it's always hearing the same old thing like like because they see me do something if they know i'm blind it's always like well you can't be blind you just did that like a very memorable moment for that is i remember going so i have two sons and you know they're young and growing and we're going swimming and my one son His bathing suit didn't fit him and the pool was going to

close like an hour. So I asked my mom to drive us to Walmart to get him a bathing suit. I was like, everyone stay in the car. I'm just going to run in quick, grab it and leave. And then I'm like running around the store, walking pretty quickly and I can't find a bathing suit. So when I see an employee and I was like, you know, excuse me, excuse me, can you help me find a bathing suit? She's like, they're over there. I was like, yeah, I know they're over here, but I'm like,

I'm visually impaired. I've been looking, I can't find one. Can you please help me? And she was like, well, you move pretty quick for somebody who claims they can't see very well. I'm just like, can you just help me find a bathing suit? Like, what is that? Like, in what world do we live in that it says a blind man can only walk this fast? Where it's just like, literally, if you look into anything, it was like the 2015

Olympics. One of the blind, like a B1, so a completely blind sprinter ran the hundred meter quicker than. some of the slowest able -bodied Olympians. Like he ran like a 10 point something, 100 meters. So it's just like this man who's tethered to another human is running as quick as able -bodied Olympic athletes. Oh, okay. I didn't know they did it that way. That's cool. Yeah. So like it's, again, like this guy, and I have some vision,

so it's less. Yeah. Things that it's just, it's annoying to have to be doubted all the time. Like I even have friends of mine who know, like if we're driving, say they're driving me home or something and they'll, people always make this mistake. They always turn, try to turn a road that's one road early. And I'm always just like, no, not, not yet. Like, oh, I knew you could see. I'm just like, well, like, no, like I've lived here my whole life. I know that you

haven't driven far enough. Like I could be tied up in a trunk and I would know you're turning on the wrong road. Um, yeah, I think hearing

things like that are just annoying quite often. And you had also, um, brought up, uh, like the Olympics or the Paralympics. Um, and of course, yeah, big news, para climbing 2028. I'm stoked. Yeah. Any thoughts on that? Yeah. Um, if you're going to compete. Oh, I'm going to compete. The only thing that would stop me would be they haven't announced the categories yet. So in para climbing, there are 10 categories, male, female. So that's

like a ton of medals. So if you remember with the able -bodied climbing, Tokyo, they had to do the combined all three disciplines. Yeah. Like the reason why they did that is because they could only issue so many medals. So they had, you know, six medals to give out, three male, three female. And then they then for Paris were allotted, you know, 12 medals. So they can

now have two different events. And I think they're hoping to have, you know, three sets of medals so they can have individual disciplines like the speed, boulder, lead. But it takes time. for the Olympic Federation to allow a lot that many medals to see sports. So for us, they haven't told us what categories are going to be involved, if there's going to be merging. I mean, all of this is just rumors, but a lot of talk is blind

people don't look disabled. So it's not enough inspiration porn for us to be on the TV, I suppose. Even, like, a lot of people find blind climbing very interesting. And my suggestion to the IFSC was to televise the callers, like, mic both of us. I mean, we're already mic'd. Oh, yeah, that would be interesting, yeah. That way, if at home, you're not just flipping through the channels and seeing some man or woman climbing slowly, you can hear the two -way. Because, like, yeah,

there's chatter back and forth. I think it's very interesting to listen to the back and forth conversation. Like I even me, like I wish I could hear what's happening through the other people. I feel like some teams don't want to share that because they have developed their own secret information. Yeah. And they don't want everyone to know the beta that they have. I hope they get over themselves and that's not. I think it makes it very engaging too. And also it makes

climbing this team sport. It's very much, so even at the Canadian Nationals, and I think, so USA Nationals just happened. They're now, and a lot of other blind sports, the caller or the guide are treated equal to the athlete. I just referenced the 100 meter dash. You ain't just some random dude. You're an Olympic athlete.

to be that guy's guide like the guy who ran that 10 10 .5 seconds with him also just beat a guy who was in the olympics so it's just like but he's there's a canadian cross -country skier he's on both teams and again his brother is his guide but his brother's also an olympic cross -country skier yeah and they train together every day anyways so like i mean like you need to have high level guides so then they need to be treated You know, like they've been getting medals, like

other sports, if there's a cash prize, the caller or guide will get, you know, that money as well. Because they, and that's an argument people have is like, yeah, but they're not training as hard, say in climbing. Because, you know, if I'm doing off the wall training, like say this afternoon, you know, Jazz is going to call for me. So that's equal time spent. But this morning when I spent a couple hours at the YMCA working out, like

she wasn't there doing that. So it's not a hundred percent equal, but she's still putting a lot of time in and she still has to, you know, be educated on the hold. But yeah, so I hope that they merge us as I think, I don't know what they're going to do, but they, for a lot of other blind sports. They combine B1, B2, B3, and they just blindfold everyone. Yeah, I was going to say like in terms of inspiration porn, being blindfolded

is pretty decent, I think. Yeah. I mean, also someone who has classified as a B3 and I have central vision, or I have no central vision and they do have central vision, people can argue, well, that's not even fair because that person could view the whole route where I can't. Like, I don't get into the nitty gritty details like that. Like, I don't like to complain about things. I'm just grateful that I get to climb these wicked awesome routes and that we, you know, are involved.

Like, I feel, and again, I wasn't aware of this, but a lot of disabled people grew up never getting to experience sports or, you know, being included in the things. blind people I meet are, they don't have like people skills or they're very, they're not very confident in themselves and their abilities. And it's because they haven't been given opportunities to do anything. And they're, they're babied and treated so differently. I'm just like, I'm not any different than you

are. I just don't see, I mean, I can do everything you can do. I just do differently than you do. I mean, other than driving a car illegally, there's nothing that anyone else can do that I can't, that I can drive. Not on roads. No, I'm joking. Oh my gosh. I was going to say, wait, how? I had no idea. I drive by feel when I hit bumps, I turn. Yeah. Like I'll drive off, off road and stuff. I have a friend of mine. I won't say her name, but she's sponsored by a car company that

I won't mention their name. And she's been known to let me drive her fancy expensive vehicle off road more than once. Because, yeah, like, I can drive. I just, when there's nothing around for me to hit. Yeah, okay. Yeah, if I drove on the road, I would probably kill someone. So I don't do that. Well, then you wouldn't know to turn, so. Yeah. But, like, I mean, I have an ATV and stuff that I started riding again. And I, yeah,

same thing. I just, like, follow a friend. And once I've been on the trail a couple times, I know it, I remember it. Yeah, I do everything other than driving a car. I've learned how to, like there's a saying of mine, it's instead of saying I can't, say how can I? And that's like a very powerful thing to me. Because early on I was constantly saying I can't, I can't do this, I can't do that. And my older sister, when she said to me like, quit saying I can't, start saying

how can I? Yeah. And now I will always do that.

That's a good way of thinking about it. I was also wondering, like going back to, I guess like the para climbing or Paralympics, how much of a difference do you feel when you're climbing blindfolded versus with the site you currently have? It's definitely way different as I already shared. Falling is different. I mean, but once I did that, I then learned that I need to like, you know, be prepared. And like, believe it or not, you can hear the wall. Like, you know, in

hockey, I can hear. where the boards are like the echoing off of it and yeah i just wasn't like i said i wasn't preparing myself at all because i thought that i was just like gonna because i think it was my second route the first route i fell like a lot of it's overhung so you just fall and then you just get lowered and you're just in air but for some reason i i swung in to the wall so moving forward i was then now prepared and like it was actually like listening

for when the wall was coming so it's definitely you need to practice more with your collar because yeah like at least when i'm told okay next hold grab it with your left hand and grab the top of it i know like exactly kind of where to go versus now i'm blindfolded it's just like you know i have no idea they say like you know left the 10 o 'clock well how far three feet six inches So there's like a lot of like, it's more static climbing, which we statically climb anyways,

but then you, you reach, you don't feel that I have to like correct you. Like, you know, go down, down and stop, go right, right, right. Stop. So all those little micro movements, they all add up to, to a lot at the end. So I think that's maybe some of the beta that people don't want exposed is I've heard of other callers that have like the, the body's kind of broken up into quadrants. And then within the quadrant, they'll

have, you know, a number system in there. So if, you know, if this is quadrant number two, it'd be like, you know, two, three would mean like here. Interesting. So I feel like those are the secrets that people don't want exposed because they don't want other people to know what they're using and then incorporate that into their climbing. Okay. So like, I do understand that aspect of it. It's kind of like, you know, in football or something, people have these plays

written down and they're secret. Yeah, I guess I could see that. Yeah. So, I mean, if that's the edge that you need, then take it. But it's definitely more difficult. But if they, I hope that they allow us time. Like they're supposed to tell us this summer, I think. which they always are late with everything they tell us so maybe next summer i'll know and then it'll give me two years to to train okay well i hope that works

out yeah and then um going into a bit more of like outdoor climbing you've done um i think for a lot of people well i don't personally climb outside much because i just why is that um well it's like a lot of Effort, it's a lot more effort than like climbing inside. I don't feel like it's as efficient in terms of like getting better. Yeah, the approach. I also just don't like dealing with weather. So if it's like too hot or it's too cold, it's just, I would rather not deal

with it. You had said about it's the effort and getting better. So do you equate having fun rock climbing with I have to climb this hard? Well, because my goal is more like I have some like competition goals. And so I want to work towards those. And I feel like in terms of training, it's like I could spend a whole day outside or I could spend that day training. And then I also get a chance to do like other non -climbing stuff too. Do you find climbing in a gym fun all the

time? I really, I mean, it depends. I just, I don't feel like I love climbing as much as a lot of people do, which is weird to say with someone with a climbing podcast and someone who climbs all the time. But I mean, I find it like very frustrating. And I sometimes find it hard to like motivate myself to go and climb. I just don't feel like I can say that I love it as much as someone who is able to like motivate themselves

to go to the gym like six days a week. Like I was kind of asking that because one of the things that I need to work on is my endurance and power endurance. So I look forward to say spending a lot of time in the red like in Kentucky where there's a lot of like overhung climbs because

sure it's not. comp climbing and it's not climbing on plastic but the power and the endurance that i'm going to gain from climbing outside there and again i just have i have more fun personally climbing outdoors um because like yeah like i do like going to the gym and stuff but if i were to pick gym climbing outdoor climbing it's like hands down outdoor climbing Well, I guess for a lot of people, or at least from what I hear, they love an outdoor climb because of the way

the rock looks or because they think it looks aesthetic or something like that. And I guess that's not really something you can go off of. So like what makes a great outdoor climb for you? Like, is it like rock texture? The feel of the rock. But even I do say that the people look at a climb like, wow, it's so aesthetic. I want to climb that line. I don't get that. I do get to see like this big red rock, which is in mountains. Like I live in South Washington,

Ontario. It's fairly flat here. So to just get to like stand beside this epic, cause like I can see that you don't have to have much vision. You can have 1 % vision left and to tell there's a mountain in front of you, you can see that. So sure. I can't see the little details of it, but like everywhere I go and I, I'm just like, I want to go stand on top of that. And no idea how I'm going to get there, but I can see this big thing where like a gym climb, I, you know,

it's all the same. It's just, I don't know. Like, so it's, it's not, so I do, the aesthetics do please me. And then the nature and colors of the leaves when they're changing. I just like being out in nature. I think that's what it is. It's quiet. The birds are chirping. I have to communicate with people. Gyms are loud. For the most part, especially if you go to some pretty epic climbs, no one's there because the average person doesn't want to put the effort in to get

there. I see. Especially if you're multi -pitching, you're definitely not there with people. Anyone who's there is a pretty serious climber at some

point. and you're not climbing beside someone you know it's just free um i think it was all just because i didn't do things like that and and i think i was saying when i first lost my sight i was like i'm not going to be able to do anything and now it's just like i'm doing shit i didn't even dream of doing beforehand yeah that's that makes sense that's really awesome i think just like the try hard aspect of like sometimes the approach you hate it in the moment

yeah i do hate it yeah a lot Yeah, for some reason I enjoy the Sufferfest sometimes. Okay. Like in the moment, and it's always kind of training for me, like because I'm a dual sport athlete, for me, like if I'm like approaching and like going up these, you know, big hard things, carrying a heavy backpack, instead of like bitching and complaining about it, in my mind I'm just like, no, I'm making my legs stronger. I'm going to skate harder. And I try to make everything I'm

doing training. It's kind of how I counter that. in my brain even i can't drive so i i run everywhere i go or i roller blade and you know there's times that i'm like sick of it but i just remind myself you know like i'm training right now i'm very

fortunate that just to get from point a to point b i have to be training and i do want to like ask a little bit about the blind hockey um since i i don't know much about that do you feel like playing hockey helps with climbing much Yeah. In the sense of like, I might have to be like very physically fit for both. Like people ask like, how do you train for both? Um, and actually I mostly like train climbing. It seems minus

like my cardio, like endurance that way. But you're like me making my like hands and wrists and stuff stronger. Just made my shot better.

Um, the one downfall would be like, Being heavier and stronger in hockey is better because you don't get like pushed around as much, which, you know, there's this big thing in climbing with like eating disorders and stuff like that where I definitely do not have an eating disorder, but there was times I was thinking, oh, like I need to like quit hitting the gym so hard because I'm like going to weigh too much. Like for your

legs, yeah. Yeah, because like when I get like skating a lot, like, you know, you hold a lot

of weight in your legs. but also i've now been learning to like use my legs more um and again like we were talking about like me having these like high level callers and like coaches i remember like alana pointing out to me like you have like strong legs like use them like you're coming off the wall it's not because your legs are pumped so if you can get into like a good spot with your legs like sit on them and like until they're like exhausted like if you can hold yourself

somewhere with your legs don't just you know throw a knee bar in and hang out there for two seconds because that's the move like stay there like rest your arms as long as you can um so I try to like use the legs to a benefit but I guess for the most part though like hockey doesn't necessarily improve my climbing I would say it helps with the approaches on things I have to be like pretty physically fit to play like high level hockey so it definitely goes the opposite

way for not for the act of climbing but definitely getting to and from climbing and having to carry a bunch of heavy stuff yeah that's true all the

stuff that i avoid yeah do you ever climb outside at all um i get convinced every once in a while like people want me to go just because i never go and then i go and i complain the whole time and they're like okay yeah this is why i don't go where are you going Like maybe it's really hot or. I mean, sometimes I'm, yeah, my body doesn't like adjust very well to temperatures. So, I mean, sometimes I'm too hot. Sometimes I'm too cold. But yeah, I've like, I used to

live in Vegas for years. So I, I did some climbing there. I was in Washington climbing. So I've been to a few spots out there. And right now in San Diego, I've actually been out like once or twice, but yeah, a little bit out here. And you haven't found a spot you like, eh? No. I mean, it's also just like the movement outside. I'm more interested in like competition style moves. Okay. And you don't find that as much outside. I'm trying to think. I don't think you

really like doing laches on natural rock. Yeah. Well, I'm actually really bad at laches. So not that, but you know, just other stuff. Maybe you'll have to try to find, I guess you probably wouldn't.

like the whole like adventuring around to try to like find new developments yeah i mean it's not for everyone yeah and it's it's fine i don't need to climb outside outside people don't need to climb inside and i i guess that's where the name of your podcast comes in that's not real climbing because i'm sure it's especially like the old school you know trad daddy type people are just like sport climbing is not climbing and Indoor climbing definitely is not climbing.

Yeah. I knew Alex Honnold, I heard in an interview talking about, he was saying that he could then, he's one of very few people that could say to someone like, well, like what you're doing is not real climbing. Real climbing is technically a climbing barefoot with no chalk. That is real climbing. He's like, where are we drawing this limit? And like, if you want to climb top rope inside at a gym, that is raw climbing. So, you

know, get off your high horse. Yeah. Free soloing is the only real, it's the only real climbing. Yeah. I mean, it depends on where you want to look at it. Like, are you moving off the ground? Are you using your body? Are you climbing? I don't know. What's the definition of climbing? You know, I remember the first time I ice climbed, I'd posted a video of it or something and someone had commented because I was top roping and they were chirping me that I wasn't climbing. And

I'd be like, what are you talking about? Like. Oh, okay. I'm sorry that I'm not lead climbing my first time blind ice climbing. My bad. And I realized like, you know, why am I getting upset at some idiot who is on his fucking keyboard typing away? Like I, I climbed, I don't care

what you want to say. I did. And it was great. That's really cool. How'd you like ice climbing? Loved it. I thought it was going to be really

hard. like not physically like yes it is but i thought it was going to be hard trying to pick in but complete opposite it was awesome i didn't have to try to find a little foot i want my foot to go here i just kick it there um true you don't feel like look for a foothold or a handhold you just like well i want my axe here and not every time but like if it didn't go in and it would like kind of like bounce i would just like drag the ice or the axle on the ice and i could kind

of feel how it was shaped and be like oh i'm gonna put it there and the learning curve wasn't as hard as i thought it was going to be it uh because yeah no one gave me any tips on it and i plan to do a bunch of like ice climbing at some point also i feel the days i went i've been a few times now and it's what they call like hero ice so maybe i won't enjoy it as much hero ice meaning it was pretty i think the one day i was even climbing in a t -shirt it was like

maybe like zero degrees like negative two or something so the ice is hard hard enough to hold you but it's pretty soft i guess if it's super hard it like chips away more it's maybe harder to get into um so maybe i just haven't experienced bad um environments yeah that makes sense but i'm still one of my goals in life is to i want to like do something where i need to like backcountry ski leading to some ice climb and then get on top of something to then ski off the top of it

um and kind of put where again people might be like that's crazy or like not because like that sounds like a suffer fest like that would be cool Yeah, I think it would be a bit of a sufferfest, but it would be very enjoyable. Yeah, I just like doing things like that that aren't the norm for a blind person. I mean, in general, it would

be cool to combine all of your interests. Yeah, I think I also just like pushing the envelope of what we are quote -unquote allowed or supposed

to be doing. Because I guess I myself was very... down on myself thinking i'm not going to be able to do anything like a lot of that stem from you know like growing up i was like looked up to my father and stuff and i was like great now my kids are never going to look up to me i'm just going to be this blind guy who can't do anything and you know my kids are never going to think i'm a superhero or nothing where it's actually like the complete opposite um my son

they did like in school they do a project i'm like a canadian or something and he he did it on me and like he found a photo of me on google because it was like a research party they'd like research some like canadian and he then like did me like the one photo i'm like bouldering and i'm like hanging upside down or something and he's like some of his friends were like well like your dad looks like spider -man and i was like oh like it's like here like i'm getting

referred to as a superhero so i It was kind of neat to go from thinking I'm never going to be that. And I do things that sighted dads don't do. It's not that they're not physically capable of doing it. They just don't. So yeah, I get to do a lot of really cool shit. Yeah, absolutely. I think you must be stronger than most people out there doing a lot of cool stuff. Oh, even today at the gym, I was like moving this plate

off of a thing. Yeah. And it's like. super jacked dude come over and he's like well how did you lift those off there he's like i have to shim them because he can't get his fingers behind the plates to like lift them off like just because they stack flat and you know i just like grabbed it and lifted it i didn't think twice about it but the fact that he came over to ask me i was like oh my i'm a rock climber i guess maybe my fingers are stronger yeah and he's like well

he's like i just i saw you just grab it and he's just like I can't do that. And I'm like, this guy's just massive. I'm just thinking like, it's not that hard, but I guess he's not training his fingers at all. He's got to be able to figure out a way to do it. Well, he told me his beta. How can you do it? Yeah, exactly. He's like, I put little two pound plates in between each 45. He's like, that way my fingers can get behind it. Okay. So he shared with me his how can I.

Yeah. Even though I don't need to know it, but it's good to know. I'm happy we got to have that conversation. You mentioned blind hockey. I figured you haven't heard about that. So I brought with me a, I want to show a blind hockey puck. Oh, okay. So this is a traditional blind hockey puck. It's normally black. This is a training one. So that's why it's red. Oh, you might want to show it a little higher. Can you see it there? Yeah, that works. Okay. So then it's way bigger,

but then they're annoying. So I keep a magnet on it if I'm not using it. because it make noise the dog thinks it's a toy so we need we track the puck by listening to it and even when i first started playing i you know if a puck was getting passed to me i would miss it because i hadn't learned how to listen to something traveling towards me to then figure out where it's going to end up and now like at very high speed you know I'll be clapping one -timers and shit if

they're getting fed to me. It's really crazy, amazing to see what people are capable of doing if you practice enough. One little adaptation is the puck that's bigger. It does move a little slower, but it's the noise it makes. Just the way we communicate with each other on a much higher level. We're now capable of playing really

high -level hockey. it was very shocking to me when I was able to they said my first instinct was this is going to be a joke because I'd only been blind for like maybe a month I hadn't learned because like basically when I when you look at something you're looking straight at it but now for me like when I'm looking straight at something that's when I don't see it so if I'm like looking my eyes are facing this way I'm actually like looking at you right now and I said like relearn

To anything I'm looking at. I'm not actually like looking at. I'm looking at something else. So it was like. Adapting to that. And I was like very fortunate. Like one of. A big experience of mine was. I was climbing in Joshua Tree. With some friends. And every day afterwards. They would be playing hacky sack in the parking lot. Or at our campsite. And I'd always make up an excuse not to play. And. Basically, I was still drinking back then. I would basically go and

get in the van. I would like drink my sorrows away. I was just like, oh, I'm such a piece of shit. I can't even hit a hacky sack anymore. And finally, my friend Rob one day called me out on it. He's like, I know you don't have to go do that. He's like, why every day do you make up this excuse? And I was like, Rob, I can't see the hacky sack. I'm not going to ruin your rally. He's like, dude, we're playing hacky sack.

Like, we don't care. Basically, it's an excuse to stand around and shoot the shit and kick around a little bag. So then I came over and I started playing and I was like missing it and missing it, missing it. And then eventually like, and again, these guys were like being encouraging, like, oh, you almost got it that time and being very inclusive. And then all of a sudden I remember like I hit it the one time. And again, they're not like firing at me. They're like lobbing it,

hoping that I can maybe hit it. And when I finally hit it. I remember I started crying. I broke down out of excitement. I was like, do you guys see that? I meant to do that. I remember being like, holy shit, I can do this. I just need to look here and the bag's coming here. And then it allowed me to have the confidence in myself that I can do these things. I just need to learn how to. I feel like they discredit a lot of the effort that I've put into being able to do certain

things. And it's also, I think, why I spend a lot of time helping the blind youth. I volunteer with the blind youth as often as I can because basically I remember being a kid and most kids are assholes. And if there's a blind kid that wants to play hacky sack and he's missing it, he's probably going to get made fun of. Where the experience I had as a grown adult with other

grown adults, they're like hyping me up. oh you almost got it and saying all these things and you know gently passing the hacky sack to me where the kid that is 10 years old that can't see it kids are probably firing at him and he's missing it and they're like see you know you can't do it and that kid's probably now going to like migrate into his basement and probably become you know dependent on some form of substance because his childhood traumas from being blind

led him to having to drink or something and yeah and like the belief that you aren't able to do it yeah and it's like no one told me that but yet i was telling myself that um and i feel like little kids probably actually hear that and and it's awful so i try to you know even like little tips like squirting toothpaste in my mouth um you know i like to teach kids. I have little tricks on everything I do. So if I can share those with them, then that'll hopefully make

their life go a lot smoother. It's like less barriers for them to they already have enough hurdles to jump over. If I can help get them there, then that's a good thing. And also just

trying to grow blind sports in Canada. Adaptive sports are you know lacking a lot here like blind hockey as a charity does a really great job um incorporating you know blind youth like at the beginning i was i got a little emotional talking about my friend mark who he lost his sight he has the same disease as me he was like on his way to making it into like the nhl loses sight at 17 and his life is just like stripped from him and then he learned about blind hockey And

it was like mostly adults. And he got asking if kids play. I'm like, no, there's no kid programs. And he was like, wow, like my whole life was spent playing hockey. All my best friends I got from hockey. And it can be with any sport, but blind kids don't have these sports to play. So he rollerbladed across Canada to try to raise money and awareness for blind hockey. And now, like two weeks from now, I'm helping run a multi

-sport camp in Toronto. There's going to be 50 kids there and they're going to get the rock climb. Oh, that'll be great. And play four other sports. You know, I get to take kids climbing, like, quite, you know, a few times a year type of thing. And they, not just them, even their parents get to see, like, you know, Mark and I and a couple other guys who, like, live normal lives and were, like, confident growing adults. And it gives them faith that their kid can also

be something and hold their head high. And you, like, take them outside as well? i've yet to take any kids outdoor climbing um that will happen eventually though i'm uh i'm in the works of like trying to get some things going like i can only be in so many places at once and also like i can't call so like i'll like climb on routes beside kids which is maybe harder outside and mostly like where we go in toronto And the climbs

are like the hardest ones, like a five, 10. So I'll just like, I don't clip in the guys that run it. Don't really say anything to me. And I just, the kids having a hard time. I was like, screw you up beside them and, you know, give them some motivation or I'll like tap on the holds or something. So they can like hear where to move their hand to. Some of them now are getting strong enough that they can for sure climb outside.

and hopefully this summer we can make that happen and i do want to get into a couple of like the audience submitted questions um through like discord or instagram um so the first one how long does it take to get in sync with your caller depending who they are i suppose um again like when i have like a high like i'll keep referencing like jazz and atlanta when they say something like i believe what they're saying to be true i mean in saying that there's times that I will

go to do something and it'd be like, I can't do that. Um, cause I think that they forget that I'm not as strong as they are. Okay. Um, so like, there's something like, you know, grab that jug there. I'm just like, this isn't a jug. And like, I can't hold this. Um, I need new beta. Um, so it's not too bad as long as I just believe in truck. It's yeah. It's a trust thing. As long as I'm trusting them. Cause there is times I'll

be like, all right, now do this. And it's like, oh, that doesn't feel right, but like, okay. And then I'll do it. And it's like, holy shit, like, why was I doubting you? So yeah, it is

a bit of a learning curve, but not too long. Okay. Next question about speed climbing. Since speed climbing is a standardized route, would it work well for blind people? It would. Me and Diego, he's one of the American blind climbers. We want to challenge each other to a speed climbing race. Have you done it? I've only, I have speed climbed. I wouldn't, I don't even want to call it that because I climbed the speed climbing route. Right. It was not very speedy. No. Same

for me. Yeah. But it could be, because like you said, like it's the same thing. And if I repeated it, I would learn it like fairly quickly. I'm not near a speed climbing. There's only a few walls in Canada. But yeah, I totally would love to do that. And any other blind people out there in other countries that want to challenge me to a speed climbing off. Because I thought it'd be neat to do that at one of the World Cups. And Diego and I talked about doing it in Salt

Lake City when they had the speed climbing. They were like, oh, let's race each other just for fun. For one, just to show people like, you know, just because you're blind doesn't mean you can't speed climb. Obviously, I'm going to do it in like 10 minutes. Yeah. Do you remember your time? No, I don't think I even time myself. I was in like Switzerland or Austria or something like that. And my friend was like, oh, it was a speed climbing route there. So I just wanted to like

touch the holds. They were harder. They weren't as positive as I was expecting. I thought it

was just like a jug hold. yeah no i think it's maybe like a i don't know if you graded it as like a top rope route maybe like a five five ten i think i heard that it's like a 10 10 c or something um which and i don't even know who told me that it could be made up but it's definitely i also feel like i heard that so yeah maybe it definitely is not you know just a 5 -8 jug haul the way they fly up that wall i was like oh this clearly must be they're just like nope it uh

yeah it definitely was not fast but so i've competed a few times in seca block which is like the deep water soloing yeah cool and they time us there and it's crazy to see so the first time i climb the route because i don't do it with a collar so i'll climb it like there was a lot of times i'll grab a hole and like feel around for where the best part is or like oh i sequenced that wrong you know now i gotta like match or switch or something And you know, like the first time

I'll do it, it'll take me like two minutes and then it'll be a minute 30. Then it'll be 50 seconds, then 30 seconds type of thing. Like I shave like so much time off every time just because the first, I'm not going to just dino and like cut feet and start throwing the shit when I have no idea what it is. But every time I climb it, I go way faster. So it would do, it would be the same for the speed climbing. But I wouldn't even come close to what the men and women do

internationally. Well, maybe eventually if you did it so many times. I mean, I don't know. The speeds that they're putting up these days blow my mind. Yeah, okay, that's true. I mean, I guess I got to quit saying I can't. How can I get to their speed? Well, because I've seen videos. I think I saw Sam Watson doing blind speed climbing

as an exercise. uh because i mean i guess eventually you do learn it so well that you should just kind of know without being able to see from what i understand like they're not looking at their feet and something like that like they're it's all muscle memory right so yeah all muscle memory and uh that's interesting i did not know that that he or other climbers uh climbed blindfolded for speed but but it makes sense that is an exercise yeah I've even seen it for like bouldering. I

think not as much. I think I saw like one time in a gym, the comp kids were doing like a blindfolded exercise. I don't know what it helps with bouldering as much. I don't know what the exercise is for. Maybe just like trust or I don't know, power endurance, like moving slower. I'm not sure. Yeah, lock off strength. Yeah. I've definitely

heard of that happening as well. I've even actually, I've been at the gym where Atlanta and I were at the gym and then people came over and they thought that we were like both pro climbers. And we were, that's how a pro climber trains is you, you do their beta or something. So I came down and I could hear her like talking to someone through the mic. And then she's like,

no, like he's blind. And I'm like telling him like, two ladies were like oh like we just thought that's how you like became so good is that you guys called for each other and that way you had to like move slower and like wait for them to tell you this you try this different technique and she's like no like you just can't see what he's doing um but yeah they could the blind kids are not blankets other people i've seen doing it for kids and stuff and i think it's just building

endurance because you have to wait You know, so I think there's some training would be like climbing like every hole is like wait three seconds hovering over it before you can grab it. So you're basically doing something similar to that. So yeah, it's pretty fun though. You should try blindfold climbing sometime. I would try it out on rope maybe. I would be interested in that. Yeah, bouldering is definitely, like I said, sketchier. I helped Justin Salas run like a blind

climbing clinic. in salt lake city at the bouldering project and it was funny watching people having their their friends call for them and they'd be like a six inches or a foot off the pad and they're like okay now like let go like you can't down climb anymore and they'd be like ah and then they'd jump and they like they would land and they're like holy like they were scared even though their friends telling them like dude you're you're six inches from the mat just let go but

they have no concept of where you are in space So it was kind of funny and neat getting to experience other people experiencing what we kind of go through all the time. Yeah, it's impressive for sure. But I think that brings me into the last

question. Someone asked thoughts on new disciplines for para climbing. Some para climbers train in only boulder gyms because they're more accessible and there's so many more of them. Do you think that there would be like more paraclimbers who would want to compete in bouldering? No, because yes and no. The biggest thing is, is like the injury factor. So for me, I can't see where the mat is. I mean, I would still compete in bouldering. And I really hope that they can do that sometime.

There actually was a bouldering comp last year in Colorado for paraclimbers. And I had my surgery, so I couldn't attend it. But for other climbers that say have spina bifida or something like that, and you now are coming off and you can't control your legs. We kind of experimented with

this with Sequel Block. Some climbers that are now falling 60 feet, they don't have the leg strength to keep their legs from like... going like this and if you hit the water you're doing the splits it's gonna like rip your leg out of the socket oh geez um or someone who has a spinal cord injury and their back is safe fused together you know the impact of hitting a mat hard could dislodge that or so i mean i know like lag amputees hand amputees pretty well climb in boulder but

even then if you're I wouldn't say anything for a hand amputee, but if you're a lag amputee and, you know, hit the mat and, you know, your prosthetic lands weird or hard, or even if you say climb without a prosthetic, when you land now on one lag, you don't have to absorb all that shock with one knee. So it's just like, I've seen some gyms put up top ropes on their boulders just to make it more inclusive. But then that's kind

of sometimes in the way. So it'd be tough. It kind of have to be sign a waiver and for sure. Cause a lot of us want to do it. Um, cause you know, bouldering is, there's way different climbs like then some rope climbs. So anyway, I think a lot of us just like pushing the envelope and be like, you know, I can do this. Um, and this is just how I, how I do it differently and kind of want to show off their abilities. Like my buddy Justin, like he climbs. you know, double

-digit V -boulders, like, quite frequently. You know, there's other lag amputees I have friends that, you know, climb double -digit V -grade. Wow, yeah. With, you know, like, missing a lag. Wow. Man, I suck. They've just put the effort in. Like, it's not that, like, when I say it, it's not like, oh, that guy's just a naturally talented athlete or he's naturally gifted at climbing. No, like, that man's put in the work. Yeah. I'm saying I did not put in the work. Yeah.

It's, it's tough to get motivated to go to the gym and like your body's sore all the time and, and stuff like that. So, and a lot of like para athletes have to work, I'm going to say twice as hard, but put a lot more effort in to, and maybe not for everyone, but like, I'm sure a lot of able -bodied people have a lot of struggles as well. Like say for me, it's getting to and from the gym is hard. Not everyone has a car. So like someone else has to also take a bus or

walk there. So I'm not saying that other people don't equally have the same problem sometimes, but on average, a paraclimber has to experience a lot more barriers than someone else. So I think that's why we want to show like we are capable of doing these things, you know, give us the

time. But also because there's so few of us, it's very expensive for... a gym to shut down and hold up a comp if there's only going to be six people show up type of thing but you need to start somewhere because otherwise how's anyone like jazz and i were just skiing the other day and we saw this man on a a sit ski he's on the chairlift with me so i was like hey man do you do rock climb he's like no i can't rock climb and again like when people say the whole like

i can't things i always have to fire back at them. And he gave me a few excuses as to why he can't do it. And eventually he was like, all right, yeah, you're right. Like, I just haven't tried it yet. And I hope he does, but he had never heard of it. And I was like, well, it's because, you know, we only had our first nationals two weeks ago. And this guy lives in Montreal where there's a pretty big pair climbing scene. But by that there's like eight people, but like,

that's a big scene. Like. You know, you go to any other big city, there's not many. But if there was more comps and more adaptive programs and stuff like that, more people would get involved. It would continue to grow. If you go to the States or other countries, you know, like the U .S. Nationals, I didn't see a number this past weekend, but I think last year there was 250 athletes there. And you compare that to Canada where there's,

I think last year nine of us competed. But their first nationals, I think they had 10 people. Yeah, it just takes time. Yeah, our first nationals, we had 30. But again, a gym has to be willing to shut down, pay its root setters to set this comp for a week. It's a big, there's no money in it. So someone has to kind of take the loss. to build the space for us. So I think we're all very appreciative of the people that do this

for us. Yeah. Well, I hope this at least helps get the word out there. Yeah. I hope so as well. Well, I think that is all the questions I had for today. Um, is there any like last minute words of wisdom you want to get out there? Words of wisdom. Um, yeah, don't say I can't say how can I, um, no, and I guess, uh, I don't know,

be inclusive to people with disabilities. And as in don't judge people in the sense of, you know, like when someone starts climbing for the first time, they're not going to be good at it. But if you give them an opportunity to learn, they're also going to become very good at it. I think a lot of people might see a pair climber climb for the first time and be like, oh, like I don't want to climb with that person because

they're not at my level. But if everyone's told that they're never going to get to your level. So, and a lot of people don't have that intrinsic motivation, especially that's kind of why I was asking, how does the average person get into rock climbing and stay at it? Because if you go to this adaptive meetup, you see a few other adaptive climbers there, but they're already like crushing it. You're just like, well, I can't

do that. But they're kind of discrediting and forgetting the fact that this person also started here. And it takes time to build up to here, but you need climbing partners to allow you to build that. So yeah, I just, I hope that people that are listening to this can, can learn to incorporate or invite people out to the climbing meetups. So like they're into their gym and give them a catch and let them learn how to belay.

And eventually you can build that partnership and, you know, you'll have another climbing partner. Awesome. Okay, great words to end on. Well, thanks for having me on here. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much for joining me. Do you want to let people know where they can find you if they want to hear more about your story? Yeah, my handle on Instagram and other platforms is The Blind Explorer. Yeah, I will add that to the description. Awesome. Thank you again. And it was amazing to talk to

you. Yeah, thank you. Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast. Don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed. Otherwise, you are a super big climber. If you're listening on a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rate it five stars and you can continue the discussion on the free competition climbing discord linked in the description. Thanks again for listening.