Ep 37: Tijl Smitz - POLITICS in the IFSC

for me education doesn't need to be for free a route setter he makes his living out of it it's a profession so if you follow a professional education you can pay for it it doesn't need to be a hyper expensive neither our own events the world championship and then the world cups how do you give them value the easy answer is the prize money There was some controversy about it, clearly. Now, this year, the NEOM games aren't on the schedule anymore. At World Cup level,

there has been tests done. I think 300 tests last year. There has been talks with specific athletes that are getting into the danger zone, but not there yet. Welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast. I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce my guest for today, Tijl Sumitz. Tijl is currently the IFSC Europe president, but is now running for the president of IFSC with elections taking

place in April. In this episode, we'll learn about how IFSC politics works, hear about the changes he wants to make within the IFSC, and get his take on some hot topic issues like National Federation quotas, red -ice testing, and the NEOM Games. I really appreciate him being willing to answer some difficult questions. So I hope you enjoy this episode with Tijl. Real quick,

I'm excited to announce my new sponsor helping make this podcast episode possible, Mad Rock Climbing. I got fitted with their brand new line of high -performance shoes, the D2 .1s. They just came out December 6th, but you might notice a few of your favorite gomp climbers are already wearing them, like Oscar Beaudrin from Team Canada,

and also... me. This is the first time I've gotten to wear their shoes for an extended period of time and I'm actually super impressed with the grip of their in -house rubber and of course the famous drone heel that everyone says is the cheat code to heel hooking small edges. Feel free to message me if you have any questions about the shoes or sizing and you can use the discount code notrealclimber for 10 % off your entire Mad Rock order. Info will be in the description.

Back to the show. So yeah, let's just get right

into a little bit of your history um some easy questions before we get into like the hot button issues okay um so how did you start um climbing and for those who don't know you what do you do for the ifsc so um i started climbing being little i always loved climbing in trees and i watched uh sometimes when we were visiting south of france we were with my parents in the verdon valley and we saw climbers on on the on the walls and it was impressive for me and then we went

hiking in the mountains in Austria and I really love pictures of people climbing free climbing in the 80s style with the pink pants and etc so I was quite impressed by that and in the end only when I was 18 years old I managed to start climbing in an indoor gym and I was immediately hooked up I wanted to climb three times a week and Yeah, it was really a new passion I discovered. And soon I also discovered climbing on the rocks, which was even more my thing. Apparently, I really

love being outdoors and then climbing. So that's the way how I started from trees to walls to the rocks. And then since I was studying sports education, I was really motivated with some people in the climbing gym to somehow share the passion and to allow kids to start climbing. So we quite soon. Launched a club. I climbed merely one year when we started with some friends. A club for small kids to educate them in the climbing. Since

it aligned with my studies as well. So that's how I started somehow in the climbing business as well. As a volunteer though, not as a business. Right, yes. That's how I started climbing. And

how did I end up in the IFSC? Well, during sports education, I managed to become... coach of the Belgian climbing team when being on international competitions at the world championships in Indonesia no in Singapore sorry in 2012 there was a rule that said that if there was a tight spot at the gold medal place then based upon the speed of climbing in the finals of the lead that would be defined who is the winner and between all coaches we cut like oh this is not raw this is

wrong it should not be based on time because it is lead climbing not speed climbing so at that point with all the coaches we decided to send an email to the ifsc complaining and asking like can this rule be changed and by the way don't we need a coach's representative in the ifsc Okay, at the IFC level, we didn't manage to get a coach's representative for the youth events at that moment, but we did get in the IFC Europe Sport Commission and I was lucky to

be chosen as the coach's representative. At the same time, I started a full -time position inside the Belgian Federation as sports director and they decided to send me to the General Assemblies as National Federation's delegate. And so that way I rolled into it. I liked it. I like to bring opinions of people together and to make sure that we all had our say and that the general opinion was respected. And so in 2021, the National Federations of Europe decided to elect me as

their president for IOC Europe. which also brought me into the IVC board. So the last four years, I have been part of the IVC board as Europe representative, and I have been IVC Europe president, thanks to the trust that the National Federations gave me. I don't know if I knew that you were the

Belgian coach. How long were you doing that for? Oh, I think my first year coaching or my first competition was in 2007, was my first taste. I could go to Kranj, to the youth cup that we had, the European Youth Cup organized in Kranj, in Slovenia, back in the old days. And then from the year after, I was full -time coaching the

youth team. and so yeah from 2007 or 8 rather till 2019 I was actively coaching and 2020 corona there was no coaching 2021 2022 I still had to do some I had to fill in some holes where we didn't have other coaches available but I was already less coaching because in the end there is a possible conflict of interest between being the president of IBC Europe and being a coach So I was more in the background, allowing a bit more the logistic side and not actively appealing

or those things, but I was still helping a bit. So yeah, roughly 15 years, but maybe a bit less. Yeah, that's a long time. How did you like coaching? Oh, I loved coaching a lot. Sometimes I still miss it in the end. I love a lot to climb myself, but I love also to show people that they can. be stronger than they thought they could be or that they can surpass themselves and somehow guide them in the process to discover how to use their body and how to put goals and to go

for new goals. So I really like to work with kids mostly, but I also coached adults for a long time. That was my way of earning my money.

I was in the end, before I started working for the Belgian Federation, I was... an independent climbing coach working as a volunteer for the youth team in in my city and as a professional for seniors for not for seniors for adults infected as well debutants beginners as as experts so yeah i love to to teach people how to climb but then since i got more and more involved in in the management of sports climbing in the end at a certain time i could not combine both anymore

also if you coach people you need to have trust and if you manage a team somehow you also decide who gets money who doesn't get money so people maybe don't can they are not able to tell you the full truth anymore at all moments somehow because if you tell to the one who's giving the money that you're injured maybe you get less money or there is the fear of not getting selected and those things and also just on my own side as well I didn't have time anymore for coaching

really seriously, being fully focused on the performance of the athletes. And in the end, the athlete deserves a coach who is fully focused on them and who doesn't need to take care of the overall management of the federation. So it was a choice, but I still miss it sometimes, definitely. Yeah, yeah, no, that definitely makes sense. I mean, do you still do any professional adult coaching, since that's not really... There's no conflict of interest there? There is no conflict

of interest. There is a conflict of schedule. So I even stopped coaching adults sooner than I stopped coaching youth. The passion really is to help young people to grow. And I didn't need it that much anymore for the money side because I had a full -time job already at that time. So I stopped with adult coaching in 2015, I think. But I continued with the youth later on. But yeah, of course, if there's friends of mine who start climbing now or that want some

advice, I happily give advice. And I tend maybe even to give too much advice because I still have the coaching habit in me. When I go climbing with friends, I need to slow down a bit in my tips to them because sometimes it should be for

fun and not for training also. Right, sure. Do you have like a number one tip or like mindset for... for coaching that you want to get out there oh on the technical side i definitely like one exercise for each and every level of climber it maybe sounds stupid but a beginner if you tell them to to climb in silence where you don't hear the feet on the on the footholds that's a good one but in the end even even a strong climber if he focuses once in a while on being

silent with the feet It's a good thing to focus once more on the specific analytical part of climbing. It's my favorite exercise for all beginners and even intermediate level. That's for sure. And then, yeah, the one big thing is enjoy what you do and see the things that give you pure joy and don't start doing things because you think that you have to do them. Joy is most important, I think. Awesome. OK, so going back to, I guess, the logistical IFSC side of things. So you are

running for IFSC president. How does this process work? OK, so every four years there is elections in the IFSC. For the full board, unless you take, you don't need to take into account the athletes representatives because they are elected by the athletes during the world championships. Every two years, there is the half of the election

of the athletes commission that is elected. So that's a separate election process, but all the board members, vice presidents and president position, they get elected every four years. And indeed this year, some of the board members are not allowed to represent themselves again. However, Marcos Colaris, he asked for an exception because of all the merit he brought to this project and because there still might be the need to continue with him as president. So he can represent

himself this year. But of course, other candidates can appear as well. And I am one of the other candidates. I don't know if there will be others for the president's position. In the end, we only... confirmed our candidacies this week with the IFSC and they still go through the nomination committee with all the candidates and then this needs to be confirmed towards all national federations. So all those board positions can have candidates and the nomination committee decides if the candidates

are eligible or not. And so the different board positions are president, vice president or continental representative. That's a bit the different positions that are going for elections every four years. Okay, so he's not like necessarily stepping down. This is just something that happens every four years. Every four years there is elections and there can be candidates, as many candidates as there are people interested to do so. I think this year there will be many candidates because,

yeah, it's been a long time. that the IABC is growing. We are Olympic now. There is some board members that cannot stand again for being part of the board. So there is vacant positions in any case. And there is some interest, I think. So we will have interesting elections and hopefully we will have a, we will for sure have an interesting team of board members starting from April onwards. And you don't know who like any of the other

candidates are at the moment? We have, of course, the rumors circulating and some people that are saying it's allowed. So for president, maybe there is only two persons, Marcos Colaris and me. But then for vice president, so there is four vice presidents, I think, I believe, on the female vice president side. So there is two positions. It should be female and two positions which are male. I believe on the female side, there is two candidates. On the male side, there

might be four or five candidates. So it's going to be a tough competition there with all valuable candidates. So the national federations will have hard choices also on that level. And now for the continental representatives, I believe that in the different continents, there have been some talks, but still, I think also there, there might be multiple candidates for each continent. So it's going to be interesting elections for

sure. And I guess, sorry if this is a basic question, but like who's voting for this or like who decides? Good question. Definitely a good question. So all the national federations of the IFSC have a vote. It's one vote per national federation. I think we have 101 national federations nowadays, which we're still growing. So sometimes it's and some change. So I think the count now is 101 national federations that can vote during the General Assembly, which happens in Cyprus.

And there is three options for voting. So or you are there in person, or you can participate online with online voting, or you can even give a procuration, a proxy vote to another national federation. So the democratic process is quite wide, I would say. Participation is highly encouraged, I would say. Okay, great. Okay, so then going

into some of the things that... I guess things that you might want to change or problems that you would want to work on. What things are the IFSC focused on right now that you don't think are as important or that they don't need to be as focused on? It's a tricky question you ask, because I don't think that the focuses that are existing now are not as important. Because, for example, the main focus of the last 17 years

was being part of the Olympic Games. And that stays, of course, a very important point for the future as well. But we managed to be in the Olympic Games up till now, two times already. We are confirmed for Los Angeles also as a program sport. So I think we've shown our value in the Olympic Games. We are part of the Olympic family now. So that's somehow achieved. And I think indeed that over the last 70 years, there have

been a strong operational focus. And also at board level, we have been focused on delivering these Olympic Games. And that has been good. But now that we're in there, I think we need to step up to the next level. And it is important now that we somehow shift from being operationally focused to having real long -term strategy to work broadly, more widely. definitely having a development focus where we help all national

federations to grow. Because in the end, the Olympic Games, it's a very good goal to have, but only roughly 20 national federations manage to participate in the Olympic Games because we have limited medals, we have limited quota places. So all the 81 other national federations, so to say, they don't get necessarily the push from their National Olympic Committee. They don't get the recognition or it is more difficult to get that recognition. It's more difficult to

develop. You cannot say we have an Olympian, so please sponsors come and help us. No, they still need to get to the level of the Olympic Games. So I believe that... Having an Olympic focus for the future, it is still needed, even a Paralympic focus, because we are part of the Paralympic Games now as well. But on the other side, there should be a huge focus on development and making sure that we all grow globally. All continents, all national federations get the

chance to develop furthermore. I think that's the main focus for the future, the development of the national federations. We'll definitely get into like the development portion a little bit later. I guess just real quick about the Olympic Games. As a program sport, does that mean that we still might like get kicked out in the future? Or does that mean we're like forever in the Olympics? In the past, we would say, yeah, once you're a program sport, you're in the Olympics

forever. However, it is changing more and more. I think the phrase they use nowadays is the sliding doors. So it might happen that you stay in, it might happen that you get kicked out, but it depends a bit on the value you have. So indeed, we have been invitational sports in Tokyo and in Paris. It's in the end, Tokyo will choose to invite us. Firstly, Paris confirmed that invitation as well. For Los Angeles, the IOC decided to include us in the full program, but for Brisbane,

this confirmation has not been given yet. Of course, since we are now a program sport, we somehow hope that this means that somehow there is a confirmation at least for two, three editions in a row, but we don't have that confirmation and we still need to show that we are. there and that we we deserve to be there so we still have an operational challenge there to really deliver good games definitely okay so then going

forward um what kind of changes do you want to make or what do you feel like you're most um focused on so as as mentioned already before i think development is the main one so going from Only the operational focus getting to development. And I think within development, the most obvious

way to push development is by education. Up till now, IFSC has been focused on education programs for root setters and for judges and quite specifically on the needs that they have for the events or that we as IFSC, I mean, have for the events that we organize ourselves. So mainly the World Cups and also the Continental event. But in the end, I think that we need to push route setting and judging also at the global level for all

national federations. We need to make sure that all national federations get the experience from the international level, at least brought to them. So every national federation should get the opportunity to have someone who learns at least the highest level of route setting or learns the highest level of judging and can bring that experience and that knowledge to there. country and make sure that it gets educated there as well. But it's not only about route setters and

about judges. It's also about coaches teaching the athletes in how to develop themselves, teaching the administrators in how we can market our sport, how we can grow our sport, how we make sure that we do good safeguarding of all people involved. Not only the athletes need safeguarding, everyone involved somehow needs to be taken care of. So it's really about a lot of different educational

programs that we could launch. I also think, for example, of the belayers for lead climbing is really important that you have certified belayers that really know how to belay in a good way. All those kinds of educational programs might be very useful for the future. So yeah, I think that's the main focus. And then secondly, I think also that... For the IFSC and in the end for every organization in the world probably, sustainability

should be a big one. And if I speak of sustainability, I don't only talk about the environmental part because people tend to say like, oh, sustainability, yeah, but it's all about nature. And in the end, there is other things that are more important for a sports organization. But I believe that sustainability, it's about economic, it's about social and environmental sustainability. And for economic, it means that you create the good. economic environment for the sport to flourish.

So you make sure that there is a structure behind that grows and that somehow makes it possible to finance ourselves in a better way. So by an event model, which has indeed the World Championship and the World Cups as main events and the Olympic Games above all that. But of course, then you also need to have the continental level. You need to have a regional level. You need to facilitate somehow even the development of national events, et cetera, et cetera. Branding around this, marketing

around this. So making the full economic environment and the full structure of how we function, making it interesting to maintain in the long run. And on the social level, it's about taking care of

our volunteers. It's about taking care. of the root setters of the judges making sure that for example judges and volunteers they get somehow the compensation they deserve and that they feel that they can contribute in a positive way and they don't get used but they are really part of the family or root setters I've heard of root setters that also have injuries in the end and then you need to make sure that they can work in healthy conditions and that they can also

if they get injured that they don't fall without work that they have something to continue living um so that's a bit the social part making sure that somehow people can live of their passion and of course environmental is also part of everything because the world we only have one plant but i think sustainability it's even more on the economic and the social part than the environmental part if you do good first two probably the third one will also become better because you you use

better the resources you have you don't abuse the resources but you use your resources in a healthy way so that's how i think that sustainability is important and if i can add one more so there was development and education there was sustainability in its three different aspects and then lastly a focus for me is teamwork and cooperation because in the end it's not only on board level but i mean each and every stakeholder in the full organization should be part of the team and if you work well

with the national federations with the continental councils with the commissions with the office of course with other stakeholders with experts and if you make sure that each and everyone is involved and that there is a sharing of knowledge and an exchange of of good habits and and of maybe also the mistakes that have been made so everyone learns from each other i think that will allow the organization to really grow to to to its best uh potential okay yeah that makes

sense um i guess the main thing that comes to mind for me is like the funding issue and it seems like i mean we always talk about how there's like not really enough funding in climbing or competition climbing specifically um and then I think like with funding, you kind of need that money there to be able to start like these educational

processes and everything like that. Do you have an idea of like how to increase the funding? Because that seems like something that no one really knows how to tackle. It's not that no one knows. It is indeed a very difficult question, but it's the full package that you need to grow in order to solve this funding issue. So funding indeed is the basis of everything, how you fund things. And of course, for example, we largely

hope or base ourselves on Olympic funding. But in the end, we never had a lot of Olympic funding and we had to look for other opportunities. So in the end, over the last 70 years, I believe the IFC has done already a very good job in obtaining more and more funding and in growing the image of the sport. So that's one thing you need to work on, on the different revenue streams that

you might have. And I think there has been done already a very good job till now, but we can still do more if you really work on a good event model. And if at next to that event model, you do good branding and you do good marketing, you can find more. than we have nowadays. And over the last years, we have seen that there has been some interesting new deals happening. One clear example is that in Europe, now we are on Eurosport. And Eurosport gives the possibility to millions

and millions of viewers to watch our sport. So somehow the importance of our sport has grown over the last years. And that's the way we need to go. And I definitely believe that with our appearance in the Tokyo Games, in Paris Games, this is even pushed furthermore. So it is by making good events, by doing good branding around events, by doing good marketing, that we will manage at IOC level. But in the end, you also allow the same happening at continental level

and the same happening at national level. Just to explain at continental level in Europe, we started a YouTube channel two or three years ago. I'm not 100 % certain when we started. But so in the past, we didn't have this specific European YouTube channel for our European Youth Cups and for our European Cups. But that's also making sure that we get more visibility at the continental level. If you have visibility, you

can build an image. If you have an image, you can do good branding around this and you can do marketing around this. That's one example, or at national level, since we are in Europe now on Eurosport, and I believe in other continents there is also more and more visibility. So since you are more visible on the television, in the end, as a national federation, you can also look for more visibility for your national events. The overall knowledge of the public of the sport

is growing. So yeah, this creates more and more possibilities. That's for the event side. And since you also mentioned the educational side, I want to dig into that as well. For me, education doesn't need to be for free a root setter. He makes his living out of it. It's a profession. So if you follow a professional education, you can pay for it. It doesn't need to be a hyper expensive neither. Up till now, I think lots of these programs have been financed by solidarity

programs. But why can't we ask a little contribution of the ones following the courses so that somehow we create a budget or an auto -financing system,

I would say. everyone who follows an educational program he pays a little bit we get a little bit of gain out of this and this gain we can automatically reinvest in more educational programs and this in all the different kinds of courses so in this way I think we can really find with the IFC many ways of creating revenue and if we keep investing everything in further development I don't think this is wrong to do I guess the thing that comes to mind about that is I've heard

that maybe the route setters don't get paid so much for setting for like IFSC events or yeah, I guess mainly for like IFSC events I don't know

about for the Olympics. So if they have to also like pay for their development, does that kind of create like a... what's the word i guess like a barrier for certain people to improve their skills okay so i i definitely agree that we could or we should maybe be able to pay people more for what they do and i'm not talking only about the roots and there is also judges there is many many people involved that maybe deserve to get more but it all starts from what you you have

as income, then you can see how much you can give as outgoing towards people as well. I believe it has grown over the last 17 years already. So we're going into the good direction and I think we need to continue this. So that's the first thing. I definitely agree that people deserve to earn fair money. Secondly, do you make it or do you create a barrier if you ask people to pay for education? I don't think so. As long as this helps to make the education qualitative,

I think it's a win. Because in the end, you make sure that people obtain diplomas or experience, which will help them to be better in their jobs. And in the end, it's not only the IFSC events, it's only a small part of the events that happen worldwide and the commercial routes. I think it's even next to that, a completely different story. So I think if you allow people to get the experience and the knowledge to do well their jobs, then asking, I definitely said a small

amount or a small contribution. I didn't say a huge amount. It should be a bit more than break even in the end. And that way, I think we can make more courses happen. We can educate more people. These people go back to where they live and work with more knowledge and more experience. So somehow it will allow a cascading effect for growing the sport. Sounds good. And then also earlier when you were talking about like the Eurosport deal for funding, I'm in the US, so

I don't know too much about that. I still just watch it on YouTube. Yeah, I definitely know that there was a lot of talk about Eurosport and the difficulties it made for some people in Europe to watch climbing. What has been the outcome of that deal? Do you find that it's been positive? Is it easy to watch on the channel? Has it increased viewership? Yeah, definitely.

So in the end, indeed, there has been a lot of talks because of Eurosport, we had to geoblock the YouTube channel in Europe, which is somehow sad because you don't allow your nearest friends and family to watch it for free on YouTube and

you need to pay to view it on Eurosport. But in the end, the numbers of people that can watch sport climbing on Eurosport are completely different to the numbers that we obtain if we use our youtube channel so somehow you just give um the sport a much wider um coverage or no not coverage i mean there's just many more people that are watching the sport that are getting interested in the sport It's about millions of people. I don't

have the exact numbers. Fabrizio Rossini from the office, the communications, head of communications, he knows the exact numbers and the difference is just huge. So yeah, I think it definitely makes a difference. And yeah, it makes the difference that people in the streets nowadays can talk about climbing. They know bouldering. They don't lead climbing. They definitely know speed climbing, which still is the most easy to appreciate, apparently. But yeah, it helps. It makes a huge difference.

Okay, so then I guess going into one of the more... harder issues that I had in mind, also sort of related to viewership. Do you have any thoughts on some of the biggest athletes taking a step

back from competitions after the Olympics? I think like Janja and Brooke said that they might be going to fewer World Cups this year. Is this like concerning to you that a lot of the big names are? stepping away. Please excuse this brief intermission, but if you're interested in deleted scenes from this episode where we talk about the unexpected politics that come with the role, for example, with dealing with the Ukraine war, do consider helping support

this podcast on Patreon. Some other perks include a membership pin shipped to you after two months, prioritized guest questions, or the ability to

submit video questions and a board to come. The proceeds go back into the podcast to help me break even, and they help me improve the experience of the guests if you'd like to help out non -monetarily liking commenting and sharing helps a great deal as well back to the show first of all i think that we really cannot imagine the pressure that the athletes at the olympic games they live and i think we need to respect them for that we need to understand that after this intense build -up

towards the olympic games they tend to need a rest not only for their body but also for their mind So it's a logical thing that happens in all sports, all Olympic sports. You see that people have this kind of build -up towards a peak of four years and then afterwards there is quite a slowdown in performance and also in participation. So yeah, we can only respect that and that's what happens. I think a solution for this issue, if you call it an issue, is having

a good long -term calendar. where somehow we plan our events also accordingly, that we include the fact that indeed an Olympic Games is a high point in the career of an athlete. Sometimes they even build up eight years towards it or they dream from it if they are born. So it's a high point, definitely. And we need to follow this rhythm, I think, in the calendar that we make, a long -term calendar on all levels, on the continental level, at the world level. So

planning our events in a smart way. Not only within the Olympic year, because in the Olympic year, indeed, last year we had the European Championship only a few weeks after the Olympic Games. It wasn't the smartest move maybe, but it was still a successful event. But maybe we could have planned it differently and we could have had other champions be participating as well. So yeah, making a good long -term calendar in the year itself, but also

over the four years might be a solution. And then secondly, I think also... if we make sure that our own events, the World Championship, the World Cups and being the overall winner of the World Cup or being the number one of that week or of that month of that year, somehow if this has a value or more of a value, then I think also athletes will plan accordingly and make sure that they build up within their full program

towards these kind of events. Yeah, how do you think... we can build more value into winning a world cup or the world champs. Cause I know a lot of people have mentioned that world cups used to feel like the biggest thing or world champs used to feel like the biggest thing that people, um, really want to strive for. And then since the Olympics have come into play, it just doesn't really seem like people care about it

anymore. I think in many sports, the Olympic Games are simply the biggest goal to achieve. It's so unique. You can only have it every four years. You need to be a selected sport to be part of it as well. So this value of the Olympic Games, it's clearly unbeatable somehow. But then still, our own events, the World Championship and then the World Cups, how do you give them

value? The easy answer is the prize money. Of course, by growing prize money, by making sure that people get also prize money for the overall title or maybe for being number one. But also, if we make sure that the visibility of our events, that the branding of our events, the marketing around this, give more value to these events, then somehow it's also more interesting for sponsors

to have athletes that are. performing well at world cup events and maybe they don't manage to be the olympic champion but they are performing at at world cup events and that way they are interesting persons so it's not only directly in our own event with the prize money but it's also by making the image of our events a better image or a more interesting image that the value for sponsors gets bigger and and that way for an athlete it becomes more interesting to be

a world cup winner because yeah it makes them possible to to make a living out of their passion being a competition climber okay yeah that makes sense yeah definitely adding exposure um would help as well in terms of like non -immediate monetary funding in terms of prize money Okay, so next issue I wanted to get into, this is about like the new rule limiting participants per country

from like bigger climbing federations. What are your thoughts on that? A lot of people don't necessarily believe in like wanting to just have more climbers come in just for the sake of them getting like experience. It's a very difficult exercise to make. In the end, we want indeed the best climbers to be able to participate at

the highest level competitions. But on the other side, we also want to make it possible for all national federations to grow, to get experience, to be at the highest level of competitions and to get connected with their NOCs, for example. I mean, their National Olympic Committees. And so it's a very difficult exercise to be made. But even before this year, there was already a quota for many countries. There were already

difficulties. I believe that, okay, clearly for now, Japan is the clear example as being the ones who get the biggest disadvantage of the new rule. But I think in the big countries like France, like Slovenia. There is issues with people being very performant that don't manage to get into the competitions that they would like to participate in because of quota. I remember also last year at the Olympic qualifying series, the fight between the three French athletes for the

two sports. So there is also at the Olympic level, there is this quota problem. So it happens. Now, what is the solution for it? I don't know yet. It's an exercise that we need to make with the national federations, with the commissions. We need to have discussions about, okay, how do we want to proceed with this? And it's all about this event model that I was talking about before

as well. You need a pyramid with a world championship as main event at IFC level, world cups, you have continental cups, regional cups, and how you build up towards that. That's to be discussed.

In the end, do we really need to have... full quota for each and every national federation in the world championship or at the world cup level in the future it's a question mark i don't have the answer we could also go to a system where the world ranking defines who can participate in the um in the highest level events but then you need a world ranking system which allows people to get enough points to reach this level of those who are participating in the highest

level competitions so it's a full puzzle that you need to make and it's not an easy exercise and i think we just need to have this this discussion and it will take some more time and this year there has been made a choice it's definitely a pity for some of the best climbers of the world but yeah we have to discuss this further more and see what what the best solutions seem to be and try out Okay, so other than that, the next issue I think people are always talking

about is the Red S policy. I know that the new policy went into effect earlier in the season. How do you think it has been working? Do you know if people have actually been flagged for it or if any action has been taken place? Obviously not like specific names, but just whether it's really been implemented. So I think that IFC has been a pioneer in this approach. So we're trying something new. And as everything that is new, you might have childhood diseases in

it. So I won't say that it's a perfect system. But I think somehow what the new approach to the Red S issue allowed is there is more open talks about it. Definitely, there is more consciousness about the topic. And I think also with the athletes, it's become less of a taboo to talk with it. I think more and more national federations are

now having a medical person. nominated to do the follow -up of their athletes there has been talks with athletes that are maybe becoming into the danger zone so i think that's very positive evolution for the sport so it's it's less of a taboo there is clear talks with athletes about how they are dealing with these kind of topics and i Also believe that at World Cup level, there has been tests done, I think, with over 300 athletes,

300 tests last year. There has been talks with specific athletes that are maybe slightly between the green and the orange or that are getting into the danger zone, but not there yet. So I definitely think that we are making huge steps in the good direction. But I also believe that

we need to continue evaluating the system. in contact with the athletes through the athletes commission or even each athlete every athlete that wants to talk about it should be and is probably also invited by the medical commission to talk with them we should talk with coaches we should talk with medical experts i think the medical commission is doing a really good job here in europe we also started a health and safeguarding commission which focuses more on the prevention

side so that we can educate more coaches and youth athletes and athletes widely about this topic. So I think attacking the prevention side of it is very important as well. For example, at the European Championship last year in the Athletes Forum, we had a presentation made by the Health and Safeguarding Commission where there was a testimony made by Beth Rolland. about how she lived her climbing career and on this

topic. And there was also an intervention from psychologist Mina Markovic who clearly has competition experience and could talk from her own experiences as well. So I think these kind of interactions with athletes, they are really rich and that's the way we need to continue moving forward. So yeah, Red S, it's a very difficult topic. I think IFC is pioneering it. We should be proud of what we are doing, but we should be critical about how we keep pushing it to become better and better.

That's shortly my opinion on this topic. I had recently interviewed someone who mentioned that

there's no policy in the youth. uh youth climbing um and that that's maybe like an important part to consider because like a lot of these um habits and like eating habits and eating disorders take place when they're growing up and it's not like it's something that develops once they've like gotten older um it starts earlier than that um so do you have any any thoughts there Yeah, it's very difficult to put a policy in place for the youth categories because you need somehow comparable

data and you need to make it fair for each and everyone, no matter where you live, et cetera, et cetera. So it's really a difficult question to put this in place for the youth. But I think somehow for the youth, it's even more important to have the preventive approach and it's by education. It's educating the coaches. It's making sure that each and everyone takes also his responsibility.

It's national federations, coaches, parents, the people around those athletes that somehow create the circumstances in which they grow. And it's also by making it no taboo anymore that we somehow allow it to be less of an issue. So yeah, I think rather than seeking for the policy for the youth events, it's about making sure

that we do this. preventive approach and of course if we manage to put a policy in place for our our youth events then we will do it but i think it's more important to work on the preventive prevention side yeah no i think that makes sense um yeah because i guess like in terms of like youth athletes i don't know when they're like growing at such different speeds at like every age it's like kind of hard to make um an overall like call in terms of what's considered healthy

or not. Yeah. And they have their growth spurt at different moments. They have different morphology from the basis. Also, they are very vulnerable to being, how you say it, so the moment they get a stamp on their forehead, it's really difficult for them to cope with. So we need to be really careful with the youth athletes and we need to approach them in a very smart way. Whereas at adult level, they are more grown up. It's more stable. Normally, it should already somehow be

all arranged. But then still, if there is red flags appearing, then we should act. So I think having a more aggressive approach towards adults, it's a logical thing. Whereas for youth, really, we need to be cautious and we need to, really, all of us, we need to take our responsibility and do it in a healthy way. Knowing that in the end, the long term effects are more important than the short term metals. Yeah, makes sense.

And yeah, I think also just like getting rid of the taboo and like talking about it more makes people feel more comfortable with like coming forward with their stories or coming forward if they do think they have an issue. So yeah,

I think that makes sense. So the last hot topic issue that I wanted to get into was about the Neon Beach Games. I know there was a lot of talk about that in the past few years. So yeah, I think there were some people who were pretty upset about it. And in general, what are your thoughts on hosting events in countries that

are sort of controversial? okay so first of all the Neon games indeed we have had them for two years in a row and there was some controversy about it clearly now this year the Neon games aren't on the schedule anymore so somehow this simplifies the topic that specific topic but in general if there is controversy about competitions happening in one or a specific country I think most important to keep in mind is that somehow if IFC organizes a competition, it is always

together with the National Federation, which is aligned with the values that we all share within the climbing community. And so if we do it together with the National Federation, then this means also that they organize it with the spirit of mind and they somehow also share these.

uh values with the the audience that will be there the way they organize it and somehow it even helps us to promote the values of of climbing and of our community so uh on in general i would say that for the neon games we won't have the controversy anymore because it's not on the schedule anymore and even in the future these kind of things happen i hope really that all people Keep in mind that, yeah, we're a climbing family,

a climbing community. We all share the same values and it's by being present in other places where there is maybe other opinions that we at least show the opinions we have and we can show also the way we want to live in this world. So I think it's only beneficial to be anywhere in the world. So that's my basic idea on this topic. Perfect.

Thank you for that. Okay, so I think those were most of the issues that I wanted to cover. Now going into some of the Discord questions that came through. Some of these will be a little bit more chill, I guess. So no worries there. The first one, what changes do you think we'll see to World Cup formats as the sport grows? You said that it wasn't going to be an easy question. Less political, I guess, maybe. Yeah, less political, maybe. But it's hard to look in the future. So,

yeah, I don't know. It all depends on how we want to grow our sport. As mentioned somewhere before in the interview, I believe that maybe it is an option in the future to have a World Cup participation based upon world ranking and not necessarily a national quota. I guess, like, what does that entail if it's just based on world ranking? So, for example, if we really manage to put up the best show, if we only invite the 80 best of the world, then somehow we limit ourselves.

We cannot allow each and every national federation to have participants there. It's a bit like in

tennis, the Grand Slams. It's only the best ones who reach the top tier of the... of the the event automatically okay you can have people through qualification maybe some someone get into the the final weeks of the grand slams as well the same kind of scheme could work for climbing but it's we need to discuss it really well and i don't think it will happen in the first four years it's a discussion that need to be had but that's somehow the qualification to system towards

our own events that might be a change then i think uh if we really talk disciplines speed and lead are more or less stable disciplines but on the bouldering level clearly this year there will be the point system applied and we need to evaluate that and see how that will develop so those kind of changes it's minor changes I think in the future because the disciplines they have their history already but we need to tweak them slightly maybe And of course, para climbing,

that's a big question, how that will develop over the upcoming years. What will the impact be of the Paralympic categories? Because of course, we don't want to lose any category that we have, because I think it's a really rich family of

people inside the climbing community. So we need to anticipate as well, and we need to work really well to make sure that each and every... climber who has climbing in his heart can continue to compete if he wants to yeah I think when you mentioned like the tennis stuff I just remembered I watched like some random YouTube video about like tennis athletes and participation and funding in terms of career and I just remember saying that I mean obviously in tennis if you're like

one of the top players you make like millions and millions of dollars but For anyone who's like not at that like most elite level, like the top, I don't know, 10 people or something like that. It's just like a really expensive sport to like participate in and there's like no money there. So yeah, I guess I'm not really sure if that's something I would want to do. Me neither. And that's really a discussion we need to have. We need to evaluate the options.

Somehow it is a reality as well that sport isn't necessarily such an example. We have in Belgium an ex -Olympic champion, world record holder in the 100 meters breaststroke, who now is selling shoes as his work, day -to -day work. Another one who's coming from judo, who made bronze medal in the end of the 90s. He's now a police officer. So in the end, getting rich from sport, it's really difficult and it's somehow for the happy

few. But if with the IFSC, we can manage to make a structure where we have more happy fews and where overall the full scope of our organization with the route setters, with the judges, people are... able to at least participate in a good way in the sport and somehow make a living out of it or at least it's a healthy way of living that would be a good thing but yeah it's impossible to make it for all athletes uh easy to to earn a lot of money that's that's impossible but we

need to make the best structure possible and we need to continue evaluating the structure we need not to be afraid of changing it over time neither but it depends on on the full the full puzzle in the end another possibility that people throw out there is like moving away from national teams towards something instead like sponsor teams like they do in f1 um what are your thoughts on that of course the national team it it gives also a certain value being able

to participate for your national team in the end going back to tennis it's quite funny in tennis indeed you have the pro system with the individual athlete but in the end they also have the fat cup where the national teams compete and it's somehow a smaller kind of competition uh or even football where you have the commercial teams and then there is still the the world cup every four years There are so many different ways of making the structure around the sport.

And I think we just need to have good discussions with the national federations prepared by the office with the different commissions. Clearly, we have to have a marketing view on this. So the marketing commission needs to watch this as well. The athletes need to say what they believe is best. And together we need to come to the best solution and indeed inspiring us in the

other sports. It's a good thing. But in the end, I don't think there is a one size fits all idea or we will need to reinvent ourselves more than once and just make good choices based upon the time context that exists. Okay, last question.

Much more about your own climbing. What are your climbing preferences, plastic versus rock and your favorite climbing style? Okay. Great, great question. My climbing preference clearly is with the rocks. I have spent too much time on plastic as a coach, as a climber, as a route setter. And somehow right now I'm climbing. Unfortunately, I'm climbing less. I have a family. I'm doing a bit more of the political work. And in Belgium,

it's harder to get to the rocks also. So once corona happened, I somehow stopped a bit climbing. Right now I'm climbing six to ten times a year only. So yeah. Whoa, like total. Yeah, it's not enough. It's not enough. But what I miss is clearly the rocks and even more so Fontainebleau. It's only three hours and a half driving from where I live. And I used to spend 14 weekends in my

best years. uh in fontainebleau or i definitely love catalonia and siurana specifically um as as very nice places to go even though i must say that the granite from for example uh scandinavia or uh or in austria i also like so i like the diversity of climbing and i mostly miss the rocks and the outdoors even though of course competition climbing the show the the emotions that are there it's nice but i grow myself too old for participating that's 100 clear so you never did any like competing

yourself oh yeah i used to do some competitions once i started climbing of course i did some recreational events i did some national events belgian cups some belgium championship even but i was i was i started too late and i was already too much focused on coaching others so Luckily, I did do some nice performances on the rocks. But competition -wise, I was only at national level. Only, okay. Belgium is a small country, you know. Sure, yeah. How do you feel about competition

-style moves now? Do you ever do those kinds of climbs? It's very interesting to see how it evolves. And of course... In the past, some people were really strong and others were not. But nowadays, all are strong and you still need to give them the challenges that they cannot make. You don't want all people to succeed in everything. So I understand that we had a tendency to introduce these kind of moves and they are definitely spectacular.

They are skills that... that are interesting to develop and the funny thing is that I still notice that all the strong competition climbers are also amongst the really strong rock climbers so it's not that there is a complete difference between competition style and the outdoor style for example and I understand that some people are a bit how would you say that it's not homesick but they want to go back a bit to the old style But yeah, if you want to climb old style, you

can still have old style once in a while, but it's good to have a diversity and it's a natural evolution and we cannot stop it necessarily. But what is important, I think, is that we somehow maintain indeed diversity and we don't make, not every competition need to be the same style. Every week the same would be a bit boring as well. Is there like a favorite competition style move that you like to do, like climb on? When I was actively climbing and setting, I just like

to put in dynos, of course. Nowadays, it's so diverse and I wouldn't say there is one specific

one that I would choose. all right cool um well i think that's all the questions i had then um thanks for joining me today is there any like last minute words words of wisdom that you want to get out there words of wisdom i'm too young to be uh white maybe no um definitely i i believe climbing is a really beautiful sport with lots of beautiful people being involved and if we can manage to all work together cooperate and to help each other to continue the growth that

we are living now keeping true to our values i i really hope that that can happen and if that happens then probably we can indeed make better worlds through sport climbing which is the vision of the ifsc and which which is a vision that i align with a lot so That's just built all together on this nice port. And do you want to let people know where they can find you if they have any

further questions or thoughts? I'm already a bit old school, but still Instagram works as you noticed because you could reach out to me through Instagram. So yeah, indeed, if people would like to reach out to me, they can easily find me on Instagram and then send me a message and I will happily reply to all decent questions. Decent questions. So you don't want like hate

mail or anything like that? I think I unfortunately I heard recently from a very known, a very famous female athlete, the amount of wrong pictures that she receives. And I think it's really a pity to hear that that's the reality for female athletes. I didn't realize it until I had a talk with her. And I really, I don't understand how.

how we come to this point but fortunately it's the truth so i won't risk to receive those kind of pictures i guess but okay so you don't want pictures if people want to send hate is that okay no i'm just ninja it's funny no of course people should act respectfully to each other always so uh constructive criticism maybe yes okay okay well um yeah thank you for talking to me um thanks for joining thanks for answering all the hard questions um and it was amazing

to talk to you yeah thanks a lot it was a pleasure also thanks for all the questions thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed otherwise you are a super big climber if you're listening on a podcasting platform i'd appreciate if you rate it five stars and you can continue Thanks again for listening.