Ep 3: Jonathan Sin - Trying to Become a World Cup Climber

Hello and welcome to another episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast. I'm your host Jinni and I'm excited to introduce my guest for today, Jonathan Sin. If you're not familiar with his viral videos lately, he's a quote, normal climber trying to break into the World Cups and turn pro. In this episode, we'll talk about what it's like climbing in Hong Kong, his insane training for national team tryouts, and what separates a really good normal climber from a pro climber.

It was really interesting digging into this story, which was also very personal for him to share. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Jonathan.

Yes, okay, so we'll just get right into it. You only started climbing in 2019 when you were 18 years old. And I think you said that you climbed your first outdoor V13 after two and a half years of climbing. Is that right? Oh, I think it was like a V11 actually. Yeah, that's still a pretty crazy progression. How did you manage that?

Oh, I mainly climbed a lot and then I was doing like training quite quickly, but I think I had like a sports background, so it was quite easy for me to pick up sports. Also, Hong Kong's climbing scene isn't massive, so it's quite easy to bump into like all the other strongest climbers around and learn from them all the time. So you think like learning from just like climbing with stronger climbers helped a lot? I also like trained quite a bit as well.

Like after the first year, I got really into like fingerboarding, like campers and stuff. But it was very outdoor specific that year. And when you said you have a sports background, what kind of sports did you do before that? I like skateboarded for like a lot of years and then I did rugby, badminton, cross country. I did like quite a lot of stuff, but then I wasn't any good at any of them. I guess I didn't have the same passion I did for climbing.

And so it was good to have like my attention and something that I really enjoy. Yeah. What do you feel like made the difference for you between like climbing versus all the other sports that you didn't have the passion for? I think I enjoy doing all the other sports, but like when you think about like training, I never enjoyed those moments. It's always very boring and just exhausting. But in climbing, I think I enjoy every single aspect of it.

Like even the training bit is just as enjoying as the actual climbing. And there's just so much to it as well. Like there's the outdoor climbing, indoors, even just within outdoor climbing, there's so many different styles. It just feels like I never get sick of it and there's always something new to learn and something new to explore, which is very exciting.

Yeah. I wouldn't say a lot of people say they like the training part of climbing. By training, does that mean to you just like strength training or also do you count like drills and stuff like that? I would count like drills and stuff as training as well. Like to me, training is when you have an intention for your climbing. So even if I'm just going for climbing session, I consider it as training as well, as long as the mindset for the day was I'm going to get in there and get better.

To me, that is training already. But of course, there's also like the physical training. Like I call it conditioning all the time. So I just, if you just do weight or like fingerboarding or other exercises, I'll call that conditioning. But no, to me, training is anything climbing related always. And so with all your training, did you encounter any injuries while you were going through your progression so quickly?

I actually did get injured like very early on. So around like three months in, my fingers starting swelling up and they were like so painful. I think this was like, this is something like most beginners go through. They just get into it too quickly. I think especially for like most people, even people like coach, like if they have a sports background, it's quite easy for the body to adapt to the climate.

But then the tendons aren't ready yet, even if like the rest of their body are like physically, they're very strong. But then tendons just take a longer time to develop. And I think I had like that same problem. And then, oh, my fingers started hurting so bad. I couldn't climb. Like I think I got injured around three months. Like I suffered on for another three and I was like, it's time to take a break. And that took like three months.

It's time to take a break and I took like a three months break and then go back into it. Oh, that's a pretty long break. I took a break and like I still climbed, but I was very controlled about my climbing. So no crimps at all on the really open-handed climbing and like nothing too powerful. And then I was like doing my finger rehab, nod stop. Yeah. So it wasn't no climbing at all, but it was very controlled climbing.

Okay. But you never, was it like a poly injury or did you, was it just like synobitis? I think it's inflammation in the joints. It wasn't a fully rupture, anything like that. But all the joints were just very painful. I couldn't even sleep a lot of times. So like I wake up with like tears in my eyes with my joints hurting like a bit too bad. Yeah, I was pretty glad. Oh my gosh. Okay. That's pretty extreme. I've definitely had like joint pain, but not to the point where I couldn't sleep from it.

So, huh. Yeah. I'm not sure what that is. So other than that finger pain, injury, swelling, no other injuries? No. Oh, wow. Okay. I guess maybe like from your sports background, you kind of knew how to manage the other parts of your body so that you didn't get injured. I think it's weird to think about it, but I think it's actually a good thing to get injured so early on into my climbing just because now that I've gotten injured, I know how to prevent it.

Or at least I'll find ways to prevent it to the best of my abilities. Just because I know what you're missing out when you stop climbing. It really sucks when you go into climbing gym while your friends are trying hard and just like the other side, no, swing around and jog. You can't really do much. Can't try hard. Yeah. So I was a lot more careful whenever I feel like a bit of a tweak on anything. And I would just slow it down and everything. Okay. That's good.

I think, I mean, I think even a lot of people who have gotten injured before struggle with not getting injured again, just because I don't know, excitement of the moment. Not something I've dealt with too much, but, and I guess you haven't either. So I'll have to ask someone who has gotten injured a bunch. So climbing scene in, you're in Hong Kong, right?

Yep. Okay. So yeah, what's the climbing scene like there? I don't think we hear too much about it. I think it's not to, it's not like very represented as a country and like the world cups or there's not many videos about it. So can you kind of give us an idea of what it's like? So it's not the biggest of climbing scenes, but it's definitely a growing sport in Hong Kong. There's been over like 15 gyms opening in the past year or two. And they're around 30 ish gyms in Hong Kong at the moment.

And it's awesome. Now there aren't too many people climbing. I love beginners, but everyone's climbing. Beginners, but everyone who's in it are really passionate. The other scenes is really good as well. There's a lot of boulders, like there are only like a few people who do developing. So not too many, but definitely more than enough for most people.

It's a cool place to do outdoor climbing just because if you do sport climbing here, there are cracks or you can have like the city as there's got in the background, which is like really cool thing. You know, the whole city as the backdrop, you would never get that anywhere else. I don't think. And it's really close by to the city as well because Hong Kong's nature is very immersed into the city, I guess. Like there'll be mountains and buildings right next to each other all the time.

And yeah, it's a great place to climb, I think. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Is it more bouldering or lead climbing? There's a bit of both. It's like pretty even split. I think personally I've done more bouldering than sport climbing, but I like both. You don't, do you have a preference?

I feel like you show a lot of bouldering, but I'm not sure if that's just because it's like easier or because you prefer it. I think it was just easier to start doing when I began climbing. Experience in Hong Kong doesn't have any lead gyms or anything like that. I just thought I wouldn't divert my focus too much. I just want to dig into one side of things and get better at it. I think at first I was really scared of sport climbing.

Really like leading and stuff was like quite scary to me, but I put some time into like getting more comfortable with it. And I actually really enjoy it for the past two years. Like I don't do that often, but one day I'll have a great time just having that time to do it. Yeah. You think you're going to get more into it one day or you're going to stay? Yeah, I think so. I think so, especially like the outdoor stuff in Hong Kong that I want to do.

Like whatever I want to do next is probably going to be sport climbing and not bouldering. You want to get that city backdrop in your photo. I get it. Yeah.

All right. So speaking of the climbing scene in Hong Kong, let's get into the story of your dream that you shared in your video. So yeah, for those who haven't watched the video yet, I'll link it in the description or the show notes first. So pause it, watch or pause this, watch that video, then come back so you know the full story. So can you give a brief overview of what your goal was and what you did to try and accomplish it?

So my goal was to get on to the national team for Hong Kong and maybe compete for the World Championships. To train for it, I trained not non-stop, but I used six months to have a really detailed training plan, really stuck to it and then try my best to get on to the team at the end of the six months, which we had like the national team selection. That was the ball event and the league events. I did six days of training a week. Of course, there were rest days.

And I had maybe five, five of those six days, I would have like double sessions. And it was all like really detailed and planned out. It wasn't just going in like, oh, I'll climb as much as I can. But everything was like planned out. I had an intention for all my sessions. I was talking to like some coaching friends who helped me out as well. So first of all, you said six days a week. And you said that you have rest days, but there are only seven days a week. So how do you have rest days?

So I rested on like the seventh day, which I coach in the gym. Some might not consider that as a resting, but yeah, I spend every day in the gym. So I was doing like my training as like periods. So every like two months, I will have like a month break and, you know, take a few more days off just because the periodization of training and stuff. But other than that, yeah, it was like once a week, I'll have rest day. Yikes.

Okay. Can you explain the periodization of training stuff for people who may not be aware? So like for different focuses, I call them. Uh, let's say if I have like really intense power phase at first, for me, it lasted around eight weeks to 10 weeks. I gotta look back to my notes to see what I actually did.

But, uh, I think for like a training period around 10, 12 weeks or eight weeks, it's like, depending on person and what you're training, like the training numbers sort of plateaus little, and then it's a good time to switch the stimulus and train something else, at least from my research as what works.

And then it's good to switch things up every now and then, not doing the same thing all the time because your body get used to the exercises as well as like training load, so you don't gain too much more if you do the same thing. And since I've like, I see myself doing a lot of training, I'm not doing like, I see myself as someone who has like a lot of weaknesses. So I'll be trying different stuff and then training different aspects of my climbing.

And you said that you had some friends who were coaches, but you didn't have like a dedicated coach for your program? No, so I have some friends who like work as coaches and then I've like consultated with them and then I show them my training plan, they give me some pointers and stuff, but no, I don't have a dedicated coach because I really would like one, but then Hong Kong doesn't have any coaches of that sort.

And on like my part-time in climbing, it was like quite difficult to get the kind of coach I want as well because for comp climbing, it's just so specific and you got to have like really good knowledge, I think, to excel in comp climbing, especially for the level I wanted to get at, I think. I know, so I didn't have a coach. Well, it is super impressive that you managed to write up your own training

plan and that it worked out pretty well for you. This is okay. Well, I guess kind of something I'm personally wondering because this is my first time doing like a strength training session and I am so like I've never worked out before in my life. So this is like so new to me and I did like a workout for the first time and I was so sore and I am still so sore like almost every single time I do it. And so I have to take like about two or three rest days before I start to feel not sore again.

Does that not happen to you? No, I definitely feel sore, but I don't know. Climb through it. I climbed through it, but then I think that would waste to prevent getting completely destroyed every time. Like, because I don't see my training as like a very short term thing, right? Because I know if I destroy myself on day one, it will affect my training for the rest. I'm aiming for the long term when I train or like still when I train or when I climb.

Let's say like an easy example would be like skin, right? If you go so hard on day one that you're going through your tips and you're bleeding, that's no way you can try hard again the next few days, at least for like three, four days for me. Right. Unless you tape and stuff and you don't climb as well. And to me, that's the same with physical training. If you completely destroy yourself on day one, the rest of your week is all messed up. So I rather have a lighter session.

Then I can continue training for the next few days and do it consistently. Because I find consistency is way more important than just having one super intense session or like even if you talk about like training periods, if I go super hard for a week and then I gotta, the motivation goes lower because I'm so sore and I'm so destroyed, there's no point to it if you can't stick to it.

So personally, I'd rather have the consistency than like an insane intensity or at least like to the level where it's manageable personally. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, you said that you were going, I mean, you were going almost every day. Was there a way for you to, I guess, like train different parts of your body so that you weren't completely destroyed and constantly in like a state of being under recovered? Well, so just like people who would do like a normal gym session, right?

They'll split their workouts into like, Oh, upper body, push day, back, push day and pull day, like, and then you do a leg day and then you have rest day core. Like you can do it in splits like that, but for me, the climbing will slip into different aspects of climbing. So let's say I do like a three day split usually, day one will be power and the highest intensity stuff. So right after rest day, I'll again see the most high intensity workouts and climbs on that day.

Uh, day two, I'll focus more on volume. So I'll climb a lot more at a lower intensity, but working on other skills. Right? So day one is a lot about pushing the limit. Day two is about getting fitter. And for my day three, I usually do either jumps or volume or I'll do slabs or maybe some circuits. So day one is the most intense. Day two volume, day three is technique work or just some sort of resting for the body, but you're still learning and technique stuff. Yeah, that makes sense.

Um, and so, yeah, that's sort of sounds a little bit like your, um, personal training plan. Um, I know a lot of people ask about your personal training plan. Um, but you don't, you mentioned that you don't exactly give that out too much. Um, do you want to explain that? Yeah, just because my, like my own training plan, I think is, was very specific to me and tailor made to my own weaknesses. So it's very nice. I love you are interested. I really appreciate it.

And like, I guess a lot of people want to get better together. Um, I love it. I love the excitement people have for their own progression and stuff. But yeah, I don't really give out my own training plans. Like I thought about including that in the video, but I only include the major principles I had. And I think those alone, if people were to make their own training plans, I think their own training plans, I would just go according to those principles.

And the details I had don't matter quite as much to me because the plan was made for my weaknesses. Hey, cause I have those specific training workouts because I'm, let's say my fingers are weak for like a lot. When I do like longer duration hangs, I can have a really high load. If I do seven second intensity hang rather, but then I have a really quick drop off after 10 seconds. So to me, it was more important to train a longer hang rather than a very short intense one.

Just like small specifics like that. I don't think it applies to everyone. And if I don't know the other person's training background or like what level they are at, as well as their own style, I hesitate to give out anything that might get them injured or maybe just isn't the most efficient way. Yeah. Yeah, that definitely makes sense. I think it's very, training can be like very personal or not can be. I think it like should be. So yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense to me.

Okay. So going back to the actual competition and your team trials, walk me through the

process of signing up for team selection. Was it just as simple as signing up for that one? I guess like trial competition, or do you have to like perform at a certain level at previous competitions going into it? What's it like there? So in Hong Kong, there isn't much of a barrier to entry. Like if you want to trial for the team, you just have to sign up. They do require for the boys team, I think they require like you to climb outdoor V7 and 7C, I think.

They make you write it on the paper, but I don't think that means much to be honest. A lot of people just write it anyways. Yeah. Yeah, they start, but then yeah, no, there's no barriers to entry. You can just sign up and then you can do the comps. Yeah. I guess is it maybe they just haven't like developed a super like rigorous program for it, or is there just not as much interest? I think that's both. Like there's definitely quite a bit of interest. Quite a lot of people tried out.

But then the system, like the sport climbing organization stuff, there just isn't too much stuff. Like people who do it are like quite dedicated to help out, but there isn't too much of a support or anything like that. So there's a lot of resources and all that. So yeah, they're just the comp and that's it. And in your video, you showed a lot of boulder preparation. You didn't so much show the lead portion of it. What was your lead training like? Like how often did you practice lead climbing?

And then was it like a combined score at the end? So yeah, it was like a combined format. They add up the points from two comps. So we have the boulder selection first and then a month later, actually more than a month later, then we'll have the lead. So in my training, like I said, I separated my training into different parts before I had different periods. So for period one, it was volume based. It was very much just trying to get fit, do a lot of reps, but then not too intense.

Second period is starting to wrap up the intensity because the end of that is the boulder selections. For the third period, it's a lot about getting endurance and power endurance. So I had around six weeks before the lead selection and that's after the boulder selections. I did around three days of lead a week.

I didn't show that too much in the video just because I thought what I showed was enough to show how much work I was doing already and I didn't think that was like, in the videos I had of my lead climbing was just really blurry. So I didn't include that, but yeah, I did do quite a lot for lead as well. That's what made it hurt more, I guess, at the end when I couldn't perform.

But no, I trained three days lead a week and then I just saw a really good progression as well, because as I told you, I'm not really a lead climber. But I think I was at the lead gym, I was struggling to climb a 7C to start with, maybe even 7B. And then by the end of the six weeks, I was climbing three in a row and that made quite a big difference, I think. So going into it physically for a lead comp, I thought I was very ready. So yeah. How did you end up doing in the lead portion?

Uh, horrendous.

Absolutely horrendous. So for qualification, we had two climbs. I did okay on one, I guess. Like I managed to try hard and fail because I was pumped. But the first one was just the one that hurt the most was the beginning section was just a jug hole, I think. It was like very easy climbing. But then once you get by the headwall, suddenly it gets quite hard. And I had like a small, I remember like distinctly right before the hard section, which the cold solid became much worse.

I had like a small break and was like resting, shaking out. And then the first hold I grabbed, my hand just like let go of something. I don't know. I really don't know what happened. I think my whole body was so soft. I was like, I just didn't know what happened. I was just like peeled off, didn't try hard, came down with like no pump at all. Oh. Yeah, it was weird. My body just like gave out like somehow. Yeah, it was very weird just the moment. Wasn't like a slip or anything?

No, don't think so. I think I hit the hole and everything just couldn't engage in the thing. Yeah, I think I was laughing when I came down just because it was so, I think it was funny in some sense. So like I don't know if it's working. That's what I have to show. But yeah, I think it was more like a painful laugh. Yeah, I guess at that point, did you kind of already know that you weren't going to make it on the team? Yeah, I think so.

Because I think the score to get into semis was, semis finals was quite high. So I knew if I messed up the first one, I had to basically top out the other one, which no one has topped yet, I think. Or at least I knew it was going to be a lot harder than the easy one. So I didn't have much hope. Oh, that's a shame. Okay. And you said that the lead competition was a month after the bouldering one? Yep. Oh, okay. Do you think that is kind of not a great way of going about it?

Because at like the World Cups and stuff, it's kind of like one day after the other, no rest. No rest. That's not my choice, right? But I think if you consider yourself as an athlete, or like what I admire most about like the boulders I follow or like the climbers I follow, is that they can perform at any time, whatever discipline it is. So if you're given a plan or given the day to perform, you just do it according to that. It's out of my control when the cop is going to be.

What I can do is prepare for it to the best of my abilities. And of course, people complain about the date of climbing being so far apart, two disciplines, all that and all that. But to me, it's like everyone faces the same circumstances.

You just try your best. Okay. So actually going into the comp, what does your rest sort of look like before competition day? So I actually start tapering around a week and a half, two weeks out. I start lowering the volume a lot. I'll take out a lot of physical conditioning. I'll just leave in the most intense ones to keep the intensity at a really high level, but then take out a lot of volume. So I'll do maybe half the sets of certain things, some things I'll completely take out.

Just focus on climbing, have way shorter sessions, just my body is sharp in that sense. I know how to try hard, but I'm not destroying myself. Like really slowly taping my body and be fully ready at the comp. And so are you like climbing? Do you just like completely stop climbing before the competition? I know some people do like a full day of rest or full two days of rest. So what I kept in was my maximum days. So I kept the max finger boarding at least up to like a week before the comp.

I kept my max finger boarding and max pull ups and like some swaps and all that. But really just do like one or two sets, like really low volume compared to like what I was training before. Climbing was doing maybe two to three days in general for like the six. Just have a lot more rest and then get good sleep and all that. And so then during the actual competition, I guess not just at this competition, but any other ones that you did for preparation.

Where are you mentally during the competitions? Like, are you freaking out or do you find some way to kind of get yourself under control? I was all over the place. I haven't had much competition experience before the last season, like this year, really. Just because of COVID and Hong Kong has had too many comps. I've had some, but there were very few and far between and like the quality of competitions. Also like they've had a lot. So it was the most packed season I've had ever.

So I think in the beginning of season, I was like really freaking out. I was like, I couldn't climb my best at all and the timing of stuff, warming up and the whole process of going to a comp was all a mess. But I think by the end of season, I was like, personally, I think the mindset for climbing is very different. Some people go into it with the mindset of like, I'm going to destroy everybody and extremely confident I'm going to top all the balls.

But for me, it's more, if I enjoy the climb more and think less about it, I'm going to enjoy the climb more and think less about the result or like others. To me, I perform better. Like that's just for me. Like I think competition mindset or like just mindset in climbing is very individual. It works differently for everybody. For me, if I enjoy it, don't think about the result too much. I tend to perform the best, which is kind of funny. It's like you always want to win in the comp.

But for me, if I don't think about the win, then I'm not winning and something like that. So it's quite funny in that sense.

Did you manage to get into that just have fun mindset when you were doing the team trials or were you- Actually, yeah, like the Boulder selections was one of the best comic-comic things I had. I think to me, what it means to have a good performance if you try really hard and manage to show what you've got, right? Like how many boulders are top at the end, to me almost doesn't matter. Like of course it does.

But to me, like a true sign that my training work was I could really try my best on the Boulder. If my ability isn't there, it isn't there, but I'm there to test myself, right? If I can pull my best level out there, that's really good to me. I did have like a slight mistake, which cost me like four or five places. But I enjoyed climbing so much and it was so much fun. Awesome. So what did you end up placing in the end? I was 12th at the end, for the combined.

And then they took eight or nine, I think. Yeah. Yeah, that's not bad at all. Was it just like qualifiers or you were also in semis? Semis? So our board selection had no, had only one round of comp. So we had one round of comp versus rotation comp. We had six boulders, five minutes each. And then your result is just based on that. The lead, we had qualifiers and then straight to finals. So not the most established comp ever.

But I think the right people got in and the right people ended up representing the team. And I think it was right. I think if you look at a team, I'm not at the level where I need to be. And the people who are the best are at the top. So in that sense, I think the comp worked out. It's not the most traditional comp and definitely not the most comprehensive stuff. But I think it was fine.

Well, you'll have more chances eventually. And so one thing that I think you did make it in for, I'm not entirely sure. You do some speed climbing, right? Yeah. So maybe in the middle of that six month training block I had, they had a speed team selection. And I guess, you know, I was doing so much physical training. I was, my body was quite ready for that.

And the speed training, I'm not sure how it works in our teams, but in Hong Kong, our team had like a certain portion of the selection to be like just physical training. I guess the physical elements of speed climbing is very important as well. So doing weight to like testing, I guess, just lifting weights and stuff was like part of the test. And that did quite well on that. I guess it's a combination of that and that the coaches saw that I had hope, maybe.

The potentials in these speed climbing. So they let me into the team and yeah, now I'm on the team for speed climbing. Oh, okay. So, well, congrats. What do you do for that? Like, do you travel around as part of the national team? No. So supposedly we're supposed to have a comp in September where we have Asian champs or Asian comp. One of the big comps, it would be like my first IFSC comp, but then there's something went wrong with the sign-up process within the team, some bureaucracy stuff.

So now we're not going. Oh no. But in the future, I'll be going to some comps for sure. Okay. Just like within Asia or like world level? I think it will depend on my ranking in the next team trials or that they will have like periods where they test you and they just change your ranking every now and then. They have like a, they will have like a simulate comp within the team, just to determine the ranking and who goes to comps. So that would be horrible.

But I just want to say like, so technically if my goal was getting national team, I sort of made it, but it's different because the Boulder team, Boulder league team is separate to the speed team. And my goal, when I sent out my goal, it wasn't getting to speed at all. That wasn't even an option. So I don't think I counted that as, no, making my dream happen. It's just the circumstances just happens to fall that way.

And if it's not something I really worked hard for, I don't think it matters quite as much. At least to me, that's not what my end goal was. It just so happens. I was, I almost considered it was just luck, right? I lost to me. So I wasn't, I didn't count that as, you know, making my goal happen. Yeah, I think that makes sense. I mean, it's not really the thing you set out to do, but it happened anyway. But I mean, I wouldn't say it's fully luck.

Like they, I mean, they must have seen your climbing and decided that you would at least be decent enough for the speed team. It's not like they take anyone. Yeah. I guess like I was good enough to do it just because of my training in bordering and lead just because I was doing so much training and like my style as well is quite dynamic and explosive. So I guess that fit into it as well. But yeah, I don't know. I'll try hard on it. I really appreciate the opportunity.

We've been trying our best to train, but that's all a mess as well. Um, yeah. How so? We only have like a day training a week. Like they've only assigned one day of training and there aren't any indoor walls to do speed climbing in Holocaust. And to use the auto belay system, you got to have like teams approval and using a lot of timers and stuff, unless they have like the big sign off from the team. You can't use any of this stuff.

You can do like your top row with a mate to pull you up the speed wall, but it just doesn't work if you want to have proper training session. So it's been a bit annoying, but hopefully that will improve soon. I've never considered top roping a speed route. I feel like that could almost be more dangerous, a lot more dangerous. It works. It's just very slow and.

It works when you're really figuring the beginning moves, but if you get getting anywhere to like, if you want to improve properly, it's not the way. Yeah, makes sense. Okay. So at the end of your video, you kind of made it sound like you were giving up on your dream and you kind of made it sound like you think that it's actually kind of a crazy dream to begin with.

But I think from a viewer's perspective, it looks like you got really far and you're still pretty young and there's selection again in two years. So are you still feeling that way? Like you still feel like it's, it was just a dream and that it's not actually something you can accomplish. Well, the whole thing about the training for six months, why, why the reason why it was different from what I had done before, like I was training a lot already. Right?

Like I said, like a few years ago, I was like climbing quite hard. I was quite outdoors and I really tried my best to train for that.

But then it was different because it was not a consistent training and I had like school in between, so there was quite a lot of distractions, but like for the past few months, like not all of the last six months, but like for the majority of majority of it, I finished uni and I really dedicated a lot of time to climbing and training and I think for the level I want to be at, especially people at the top, they're definitely training full time.

Especially if I'm like so far behind, I started so much laces and most people who are at that level, I think it'll be, it is quite crazy to think that I can catch up, I think. Like I've done quite well, I think in terms of how far I've come and how my goal I am, but it's just that I'm not sure. I've been trying to figure it out for the past few months. It's just that I've been working more now. I've been had quite the same time to train, whereas like the pros, right?

They're amping up their training because of Olympics and all the rounds of punks and especially if the team trials in two years, I just don't know if it's realistic to go for it again. In my head, I definitely want to, but I don't know, I've been struggling a bit in the head to think that I could reach it. Yeah. Yeah. By work, do you just mean the coaching stuff or do you also have like a different- So I do coaching at the moment, that's like my main income. That's doing okay at the moment.

I'm not sure if it's going to be quite enough for the kind of income I want to have, but for now it's okay. So I can still continue training if I choose to, but I haven't been training much since the team selections. I've been climbing a lot still, but definitely nice focus and intentional with my climbing. Well, that's a bit of a shame to hear. We'll see. I think whatever nationals coming up in September, it'll be the first, like, it'll be like one of the big comps we have of the season.

I'll see how I do that. I've been having like different first two climbing than what I had before. So we'll see. I think it would determine how much I enjoy the comp really. If I can really enjoy or have fun. I think why not go for it again closer than ever. But I think after all that, like a small break was necessary for me. I feel like this might not be the same for everyone because to be honest, like training for 6 months isn't that much, right? People have been dedicated their lives to it.

Like it's not easy to think that just from six months of training, I can catch up really, but I just, to me, I just want to see how close I can get. And I really enjoyed pursuing it and everything about it was really enjoyable. Of course, the result sucked at the end, but, um, I think I proved to myself that I have a fighting chance if I have the time. So it depends in the season.

If I have the time, so it depends in the next few months, where I can figure out a schedule that works for all the training to fit in. Um, I'm going to try my best to find a coach as well. Um, I like an afforded one with my own coaching. So it's, it's a funny concept that I'm a coach, but then I'm looking for a coach as well. But I think everyone needs one, just someone to be more objective and someone who can judge your climbing from like a different point of view.

You're always a bit subjective of yourself and you're not seeing everything when you're looking at your own training plans. And to me, like for the next level of climbing, I really would like someone to help me out. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. Um, but yeah, I mean, you still have time. You're still pretty young. Um, it's not like you're actively getting worse at climbing, so still doing pretty well and you can maybe just take it a little bit slower and still improve and get to that level.

I think I've been climbing really well recently. It's quite nice, I guess, on a training game from those six months is still here. Yeah, exactly. So I've been doing less, but I'm climbing quite a bit harder than a few months ago, actually. It's quite nice to, you know, feel stuff. Um, I also went to Japan after the team selections and it was cool to see how a lot of like strong level training there. And I've been to UK where physical training is a massive part of the training.

You know, doing four or five days of conditional week is very common for most people. Even at the non-pro level, you know, it's just a massive part of climbing there. But in Japan, it's very different. It's a completely different approach. They have much more climbing sessions and fairly little physical training. If they have any, it'll be like stuff with very light weights just to like keep the body healthy. But it'll be very little training compared to anywhere else in the world.

So in my head, I'm doing enough. I'm doing my climbing in the Japanese way of it, you know, just think about climbing, just the climbing portion, a lot more work on your technique and your movements have a lot more focus for that. It's not like I did them before, but I think it's just allowing it more time, giving it more space to develop. That's what works for me at the moment. I'm not sure if some people will call this lazy.

I'm still climbing like five days a week, I guess, but it's just different. I think I'm going into it with different mindset. Less pressure as well, enjoy the climbing more. Yeah, that's what I've been doing for the past few months after the selections. No, I mean, that totally makes sense. I think that's what most people do. But yeah, I mean, you said that you're feeling better and you're climbing now than even before. And before you weren't that far off, only four places, four places.

Yeah, only four places off. So you might still have a good shot. You mentioned that there was still quite a difference between, I guess, like a normal climber where you are now and like a pro climber. What do you think that difference is and what more do you think you need to get there? Well, in terms of level, where the pro are, are definitely a step up from where I am. I think if you just look at like the level, if you go to a commercial gym, the pro climbers will flash everything, basically.

Even on the hardest grade, it will take them a handful of temps and that's it. For me, I still, it doesn't matter where I go, like especially Japan, I'll struggle a lot more there. Sure. But yeah, if you just look at that, I'm not at a level where I need to be yet. And I'm making a lot of like amateur mistakes on the wall still.

Like, and these mistakes might not look apparent to a lot of people, but when I hesitate on the wall, like even when I video myself, I, I, I, it doesn't show on the video. But I know in my mind, I hesitated, I thought too much of that, maybe I'm not wasting energy. Just like really small details is what's separating me from where I want to be, I think. Also like mindset is the main thing, I reckon.

Just being able to like perform even when you're really scared on the pressure, you know, still extracting a lot from your best climbing when you're not feeling your best. That's what separates the best. When I'm stressed and I'm stressed out in a climb, when I'm scared and calm, I climb horrible, but let's say I would drop to like a 60% level, whereas maybe for the pros, they would drop 5%, 10%. It's still a really high level.

And I think that's the main difference being how much you can extract from your best climbing when you have to perform. It's the best. Yeah. I think if just talking career climbing level, I'm, I'm not saying that I'm not going to be just talking career climbing level, I'm kind of close. It's hard to tell because comp climbing, you don't have a grade to it. And if you just look at numbers, V11s, nothing compared to what the pros are climbing. But personally, I'm quite helpful, you know?

I've been trying to hide outdoors for like a few years now. And just because there isn't anything that I hide in Hong Kong, it's hard to project. So if you just look at numbers, it's hard to tell, but it's, I'm lucky that a lot of my friends who compete in the World Cups from Hong Kong are right next to me all the time. And just from climbing with them regularly, I can sort of gauge my level. Yeah. So I'm lucky in that sense, but no, I'm not where I want to be, but it might be possible.

Are you doing any sort of, I guess like mindset work to help deal with the stress in competition? I haven't done any like specific drills or anything, but just giving it more thought after comp was very important to me. So even the process of making that video was, just to put it out there was a big thing for me. Because you don't see a lot of videos where, you know, people fail at the end.

The perfect story would be, I messed up, I tried hard, and then two years later, you know, I went, that would be the perfect story, right? But I think I decided to put that video out there just because I don't think that was the end of story. Like, of course it would take me some time to figure out. As I've said, I have some doubts about where I'm going, how I'm going to go about my dream. But I think it's part of the process and everything I did. Like, I just want to put it out there to see.

Um, I would like it to be the perfect story, but it was part of the process. It was what I went through. It was like an experience I had, which I really enjoy. Like, if you look at the whole experience, I really enjoy putting my heart into climbing, like 100%. I had very little distractions. I did have work, but it was like really lower my working hours, just so I'm focused on comp. Made my parents a bit stressed, but um.

But yeah, my parents were kind enough for me to, you know, I told them, just give me a few months. Just really want to go for this, see what I can get. Um, they're nice enough to let me do that. As long as I can support myself to do fine with it. So yeah, just enjoy my own climbing for now.

We'll see. Yeah, you definitely seem to do a lot of reflection after the fact. Um, I think one question that you had asked was why do you climb? Um, do you have an answer for that? I think when I set up my goal of getting the team, I did think about that. I think I had a specific goal, right? Just like get on the team, go to the World Cup, dominate. Wow. But I didn't fully understand why. I don't think I even thought about it.

And what you're looking at, let's say right up, we're recording this right after World Championships, right? After the first round of Olympic qualifiers. And most things you read on the athletes Instagram post for everyone who has failed or even people who have succeeded. It's not about how strong they think they are. It's not about how much I'm pulling on my void or plums. It's all about the mindset and how they're dealing with the pressure.

And I think knowing why you climb is a very important thing. And why compete, right? Like I can, a lot of people just enjoy climbing, right? Just if you go outdoors, you can still have fun with friends. You can still try hard. You can still put a hundred percent to your climbing with no time pressure. To me, why I climb was because climbing so diverse and you need to be so skillful in so many things. And I find that to be fascinating to be a messed up every style.

I find that to be like so insanely fine. You got to be so adaptable. You got to think so fast. And to me, the one I wanted after reflection was hanging with other people who are just as crazy. And to me, the best way off that was going to a comp as a comp climber. They had me all my idols. I can meet all these other crazy people who are absolutely nuts about climbing.

To me, comp climbing, it's, it's like, it's like, it's like, it's like climbing, it's, you got to be the most well-rounded climber. And to do that, you got to do a lot of thinking as well. And to talk to other people who have given, I'm not sure about this, but I'm pretty sure most people at the top think about their own climbing a lot. Right? After the training, they're not just, you know, forgetting about everything and do other stuff. They're still thinking about climbing.

Even when they sleep, they're dreaming about climbing. And to me, I want to hang with people like that. I want to experience climbing alongside them, with them, or just experience different aspects of climbing. And I think being a pro climber allows you to try a lot of new stuff within climbing. There are a lot of opportunities you can have. That's why I wanted to be one. So yeah, I think understanding why you climb is extremely important.

Because knowing what you want makes it a lot easier to approach your goal. And when the end goal for me was to have fun, enjoy it, it changes the dynamic of my sessions or the mindset. When the mindset is like, have fun at the end, like I'm in this so I can have fun and, you know, talk to people I love. Talk to people who are just as crazy with me, just as crazy about climbing, ask me. Then I shouldn't be stressing all the time when I don't climb well. Right?

Even when I'm not climbing well, I was still doing what I love. I'm still climbing. I'm still having fun. To me, that's the most important part. If you're not enjoying it anymore, I don't really see the point. Of course, you can't be all happy every single day when you go into climbing, but at least trying to be is quite important to me. Or at least there's something I should strive for. Just enjoying climbing and enjoy the company. That was a really good way of putting it.

I wish we could end on that note, but I have a couple of discord questions.

Sure, let's go for it. Yeah. The first one, are there areas where you feel like your lack of experience climbing in terms of just number of years, is I guess your lack of experience shows up more compared to climbers who have been climbing since they were kids. Do you notice a difference there? Yeah, definitely. In terms of thinking about beta, if you're talking specifics, it's the biggest thing.

When I'm in a comp or just a normal climbing setting in the gym, let's say we have a hard problem with our projecting, I might think of one or two ways to do it. If you give me time, I think of three, but those ideas and betas and ways of doing climb come instantly to my friends. Of course, they've been climbing for ages, but that's the most noticeable difference to me that they can figure out climbs really quickly and that relates to repeat hard moves once they have done them. It's crazy.

Once they figure out their body positions, they know exactly what their body's doing. If I do a move first try, I think sometimes it's a lot. Like maybe I study a lot about climbing and like really analyze my own movements, but I still struggle with knowing exactly what my body's doing, being very intentional with where I'm placing my hips, my foot, how much momentum I'm going, all the small details. It's what separates me from the top or separates normal climbers from the top.

You don't notice these things. I think if you just look at videos, I pose and a lot of videos, I'll have a few pose. It's hard to tell the difference I even find. Like you're just jumping around the same climb, so what is the difference? But it's what's going on in the mind that is the biggest separation to me. Do you think that in 10 years you'll have that kind of experience and that won't be an issue for you anymore?

Hopefully. Hopefully I'll be, if I'm intentional with my climbing, you know, for the next 10 years, I hope I'll be at a really good level that I'm happy with.

Don't know. Okay. Other question. You might've answered this a little bit. How did you have the time and money to make your training happen? Was that just because you were like done with school and you had like some money from coaching? So I've been saving up like all the time, I guess, when I had a save up. I wasn't spending too much really, and I'm still staying with my parents. So all the spending I had was for gyms, equipment and stuff.

And that's my own coaching as a part-time job, like covers most of that. And yeah, so that wasn't really a problem. So nowadays, what's your plan? At the moment, I'm doing more coaching. It's like I'm taking it more, I just like full-time doing online consultations as well. I'm starting to do some, a lot more face-to-face one-on-one coaching stuff. Because that's why I enjoy the most, like really helping someone to like get better at climbing or whatever their goal is, right?

Some people that have very specific goal of some clients who are like trying to get on the team as well. They want to compete at a high level and I try my best to, you know, help them learn from my mistakes and tell them things that I think works or will be most beneficial. Of course, it requires them to think for themselves as well. Or there are a lot of clients who just want to enjoy climbing at a high level. But like to me, it's important to ask them why as well.

Like I don't want to just climb with someone who doesn't really care and, you know, just want to get better as you climb higher grade. The point of getting better to me, if you don't have a specific goal and you still want to get better, you got to understand why. And to me, to get better means you can explore more. When we think of higher grades, it's not just because you can take up a high number on Instagram. It's because the moves are, they get way cooler, right?

By being stronger, you can experience more stuff and doing more fancy moves, be more creative. And the crazy things on your mind that you think you could do, your body will be able to handle them. And that's a great feeling, I think. And like making my clients realize that it's like quite important to me. So yeah, I do a lot of coaching. I really enjoy it. Teaching kids is super fun. They progress so fast. They learn so quick. And like kids are like so simple minded.

They just want to get better. So they don't rest. They just got to yank them off the wall to tell them to stop. They just want to keep going, keep going, keep trying. And I find it so fun and helping them get better and like seeing the size of the face when they really feel their own progression is amazing. Especially since they start like really at nothing level. Although I love kids, kids I coach are they start from nothing. They don't have any sports background. Also, they're really young.

But making my goal is just have my kids to be scaring all the other climbers at the gym. Like, oh, what are they doing? How are they climbing on projects? That's my dream. I love kids. That I think is really fun with it and setting. But yeah, I love my coaching stuff. And it's really enjoyable. So at the moment, I keep coaching. I'm really enjoying the YouTube as well. But that's just so fun at the moment. Do you want to keep doing something in the climbing space for the rest of your life?

You think that's your calling? I think so. I think I've had passion in the past. I've surfed, I've skated, but I've never been quite as crazy. And I don't think I've, I was passionate about that sport for so long. It's been four years since I started climbing. I think I'm just as crazy, if not more about climbing than ever. So I don't see this passion going away anytime soon. And if it does, there's so much more like about climbing that I haven't tried yet.

Like one day I'll really like to try big wall climbing. I haven't really put my time into the climbing, just like two massive aspect of climbing. I haven't even explored yet. Like going, doing more outdoor trips, going to expeditions one day. I don't know, but even just within this more bordering, calm, climbing space I'm in, I'm having so much fun. I don't see this passion going away anytime soon, especially with so many more aspects of climbing that have been left unexplored.

Yeah. Awesome. Well, I think that is everything I wanted to cover. Thanks for joining me today. Would you like to let everyone know where they can find you? If they want to follow the rest of your journey and support you? If you just look up Jonathan Sen on Instagram, you'll probably find me, the kid with the white hair icon. It's quite easy to tell, I think. I'm also on YouTube where I document my process and the amazing people I meet. And I have a trip about Japan that I documented.

I had a lot of cool experiences there. I'm doing a series on all things Japanese climbing. It'd be cool to check that out. I think that's something that's not really common in the climbing space, just understanding Japanese climbing and why they're so good, the culture behind it. It's just a bit of space that's unexplored and I want to fill that gap and tell some cool stories. So yeah, I'm on YouTube, I'm on Instagram. Let me know what you think. Okay, awesome. Well, thank you again.

It was amazing to talk to you and good luck. And your competition endeavors were rooting for you. Thank you for your time. Thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast. If you're watching on YouTube, I would love to hear your discussion and thoughts in the comments below. And don't forget to like and subscribe if you enjoyed.

If you're listening through a podcasting platform, I'd appreciate if you rated it five stars and you can continue the discussion through my competition climbing Discord server linked in the description. Thanks again for listening.