Ep 21: Ross Fulkerson - Mindset and Meditation Masterclass

It was shocking how bad the gyms have gotten in the Bay. If you're doing every competition, you're kind of just getting worse throughout the season. I'm not just a professional climber. I don't do well in a competition or whatever. It's not the end of the world. I wasn't very good at running. That's the only time I've ever actually thrown up from training. Welcome to the season three premiere of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast.

I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm excited to introduce my guest, Ross Fulkerson. Ross is a bouldering lead climber on Team USA, and you may be familiar with his YouTube channel where he documents his climbing adventures and shares coaching tips. In this episode, we'll learn about his bikepacking adventure that he skipped the first half of the 2024 World Cup season for, hear about his struggle trying to balance competitions with his desire to travel and all his other hobbies, the importance

of mindset and meditation. And if you're a USA Bay or you're a gym climber, maybe close your ears when he starts trashing the Bay Area gym scene. This episode is full of training and mindset tips, so I hope you learn a lot and enjoy this episode with Ross. I got back from Colorado. Well, I left right after qualifications because I knew I wasn't going to make semis and I didn't want to spend the extra money. And I also figured maybe I would be

like sad from how bad it went. So I didn't want to extend my trip. It ended up well actually. So I'm pretty happy about that. Nice. Next time you got to have the confidence to book the Airbnb for the extra night or two. Well, I mean, I'm still pretty far from semis, but I was mostly worried that I just like wouldn't be able to establish on any of them. Or my goal was to like get a zone and I ended up getting three tops in a zone. So very happy with that. It went well.

Yeah, that's awesome. I think the love is always more attainable than you think. Even like World Cups and stuff like that. Like, it's not that hard if you like, at least not all of them, you know? But it's just the like execution piece that becomes really tricky because you like build it up to be like this super big ordeal to like climb, but they're just moves, you know? Yeah. I mean, I didn't know what to expect going into it. So I didn't know what the level would be,

but I think you know like Enrico, right? Yeah. Yeah. He was one of like the first really good coaches I worked with. I grew up coming to San Diego and working with him. I was working with my coach Al. They used to both like kind of round the training center at Mesa Rim. Yeah. So they are also like doing like the adult team here. And so he was like helping me through some stuff and he mentioned that like some of the grades of the boulders there might be like

V4, V5-ish. And I guess that was pretty accurate. Like I didn't feel like I needed to use more strength than that, but it was just like kind of finicky and precise. Yeah. They punish you if you like don't do them well, but if you do them well, it's not too bad. Are you back in San Diego? Yeah.

I just got back. I was in San Francisco for a week seeing my family and climbing around with some old friends there. And it was shocking how bad the gyms have gotten in the bay. Like, Whoa, wait, I need to hear about this. Yeah. Pretty much like touchstones are like the worst gyms I've ever climbed at now. Like Dogpatch used to be like such a sick gym and we would climb there like once a month growing up. But now like everything is so, so greasy and the setting is

pretty suboptimal. And yeah, I was just shocked by like how bad it got because they used to be like some of the best gyms in the nation. I think at least when I was climbing there and yeah, overall the level in the bay area is pretty, pretty low apart from like benchmarks, mosaic and obviously the Boulder field, but that's not really the bay. But it was interesting. I felt like I had to learn how to climb it's completely different way because the holds are so greasy and

I touched them and like acid wash their holds or at least they used to. So they like instead of power washing them, they like get rid of the chalk and like this fat. I think this is how it's been explained to me. So apologies if this is no longer accurate, but it like takes away all the texture and they just have so many people climbing on those holds that they just get so nasty so quickly. So they were like, yeah, I had to like completely real think about like how to engage on holds

because it's almost like gets more slippery like the harder you squeeze. So I just did a bunch of volume on like easier things where I could still climb efficiently and not like feel like I was actively getting worse at climbing. But anyways, I feel very grateful to be back here in San Diego and back at the grotto and like I was at North City this morning and the wall this morning as

well. Oh nice. Okay. And yeah, I did like warm up and then did some hard boulders with the class five team and then went to North City and did some speed sport laps on like a couple really cool like 13s there. I wonder what the Bay Area listeners are going to think about you trashing their gyms. I mean, I'm from the Bay Area. I feel like that they were really good and like the Bay

Area was the strongest at least youth wise like in the nation for a little while. Like when I was competing, like my category like eight out of the 10 finalists at nationals were from the Bay Area and that was like true for a lot of categories. And then everyone kind of moved away and I guess, yeah, it just feels like it got very, very corporate where gyms don't really care about like setting well or like as long as they're making money, you know, they're like, okay,

like onto the next gym, let's just do more and more and more instead of training setters. And a lot of that's like not even the setters fault, right? Because they're just given really shitty holds, excuse me, really bad holds. And like no one's teaching them how to set like they need to be like clinics and actually that's something I would love to do at one point is like at least my coach Hal is thinking about doing like setting for or setting clinics and stuff like that.

But yeah, overall, I think San Diego is a much more critical approach to climbing and like trying to actually understand why a move is hard or easy or like from a setting perspective set to actually teach something. And that was a big thing we try and do with our clinics, like the one that you took, like making a move actually forced the climber to climb it well, and not allowing a move to let someone like take advantage of it because it's because they're stronger, whatever that is, you know?

Yeah, I was really happy with that clinic. Because it happened like right before the comp, and I felt like leading up to it, I wasn't, I had kind of lost confidence and like more comp style stuff. I don't know why I just like hadn't gotten on much. So I kind of like needed that refresher to build up the confidence going into it. Because I feel like also it's like partially mental just like how confident you feel on those types of moves. So it's really helpful.

Yeah, I think confidence in climbing in general, and especially in comp climbing is so so important and doesn't really matter what your like hardest capability is. It just matters like how confident you can be in like a four or five minute round on the moves in front of you. So that level is not always going to be like pushing like your like ideally your level is at the point where you're not having to learn the movements of the climbs that are in the comp. And you can

execute those like at a subconscious level. We actually talked about this a bunch at practice today. Like the difference between practicing and learning moves versus performing is is very different. It takes being very intentional about which one you're doing to like actually make the most of it. Because today I was trying this campus sequence, and very much in like the learning moves side of things. And I had a video and like, my coach and my buddy Marco are both watching and

then give feedback. And I tried it like 30 times, you know, and just getting like repetition getting data. And then I'd kind of try it again, have a different like visualize, okay, what am I trying to focus on now? Try that once or twice to see if it like makes sense. And then I'd kind of make a difference. And then once you put all these pieces together, right, you're you're chunking them down to manageable adjustments. And then you put the whole thing together. And at that point,

everything should just be flowing kind of subconsciously. So I got it at the end. Actually, no, I didn't do it. But I felt the movement, like the flow, like the generation of it all. You could visualize yourself do it. Yeah, exactly. Next practice, I'll go back to it. And not be in like that super like, thinking state of mind, you know, and just try and execute it

kind of at a subconscious level. And then it's like added to your your movement library. I don't know if we talked about that in the clinic, but that's kind of a fun way to think about moves is like, you learn it, and then it's like added to your movement library. And then anytime you see in a comp or whatever, you're like, okay, this is like the formula for this move. Like if it's a last day, right, like extending and generating making time over the feet. And your body just knows how

to do those moves. And that's when it becomes really easy to like execute it in a comp and feel confident enough to like, just throw yourself at it. And that like learning process is huge for it. Because it just, sometimes it takes a long time to figure out. But then hopefully, once you get it, you get it. Yeah, once it clicks, like that's such a rewarding feeling. And I need to do a better job at like, seeking out more of those learning experiences, you know, because

sometimes you try and move and I go, oh, that's impossible. And it takes like an hour or two. And like seeing your friends try and do it and like really working through it. And then once you do it, you're like, okay, this is easy. Why? Why was I struggling on this? Yeah, and we'll get into the mindset stuff later. But before we even get into like,

anything, I know people have already been wondering why you weren't at the first few World Cups of the year. So what were you up to? Yeah, this was an interesting year. From the get go, I was more psyched on competing in ropes, just because there's a lot of outdoor projects, I want to pursue that are more rope oriented or deep water solo stuff. And then I qualified for the bouldering World Cup, which was kind of a bonus and was planning to do Salt Lake. But then this

really cool bike packing trip slash climbing trip came up. And it was a pretty unique opportunity and something completely outside of my comfort zone. So I kind of figured I could do Salt Lake next year. Because I've been focused on ropes, I didn't feel like I was going to be able to show up to Salt Lake and like truly do my best like perform to the best of my abilities. And I feel fortunate to be in a position where like I've made finals at that comp. So it's like, well,

if I'm not going to show up in that same shape or better, like, what's the point? Or like not what's the point, but there's less to learn. If I'm not like fully committing myself, and it feels like it just didn't feel right in my gut to like, show up with only a couple weeks of like proper World Cup bouldering training. So I did this bike packing trip instead where we biked from

South Lake Tahoe all the way to Lone Pine, actually Alabama Hills. And that took like six days, it was like 400 miles, and I hadn't really done any road biking and stuff before that. But it was so beautiful just spending camping under the stars and jumping in the river in the morning. And we were going at a pretty mellow pace. And a couple of the guys were really experienced who'd done it before. So we camped at these cool hot springs and explored all these amazing zones along

the way. And then right after the trip, we actually took one night or one day, we drove from Mammoth all the way to LA, got to LA at like 530. Then went to the American Alpine Club Gala dinner, did that till like 1230. And then took an Uber from there back to Santa Barbara, got my car there because I had carpooled out to South Lake with a buddy, then slept for like three hours in my car and then drove all the way back to Bishop that morning at six to meet up with the whole crew

and then finish the last day of biking. So I missed like a 20 mile section going downhill from Mammoth to Bishop. But then I joined them for the last, I think it was like 45 mile day from Bishop to Alabama Hills. Sounds intense. And then the next day we woke up, yeah, early, drove all the way back to Bridgeport and then hiked into the Hulk, which is this epic huge wall, like pristine granite. But it was very much

early season, like we were the first party to do it, I think. So we like camped near the base, like three miles from the base and then woke up at four, put crampons on and like hiked all the way into the base of the wall. And normally people climb it like starting now, but we were like out there and wanted to kind of incorporate it into this whole bike and climbing trip. So we went with this Chilean guy who has like climbed all over Patagonia and had a photographer and she was like

super experienced with like big wall alpine stuff as well. So it felt like a proper adventure. We climbed that and then wrapped down in the dark and then hiked slash like slid down the ice all the way back to camp and then like got lost and had to cross a river and then walk through a swamp and got back to the campsite at like 11. And then I drove back to San Diego the next day and got into sport training mode. Geez, that is intense. So anyways, that's long story short, that's why I

wasn't at the Salt Lake World Cup. Wow. That's really intense. I mean, it sounds like a lot of little sleep and a lot of exhaustion. Did you enjoy it overall? Yeah, no, it was so fun. I felt like the whole part was like definitely a mission, but the bike packing trip, like by the end of it, you feel like you could just go forever. Because we were, again, like we were doing like 40 miles a day, so like nothing crazy and we had a group of like six

people. So you get to like chat with everyone as you're biking and the scenery is amazing just going down 395. And then we took a bunch of like side roads too, that were obviously way quieter than the highway and safer and really scenic. And then yeah, it's a fun routine, like wake up, go jump in the river, stretch a bit, make some coffee, then ride for two hours, stop for lunch or make lunch. And then ride for another couple hours at night, set up camp, make a campfire,

play some music under the stars. Everyone was like a musician or just had like fun stories to tell. And I only had known one of the guys beforehand, so it was kind of fun to meet this whole new crew of people. I think eventually we'll have a video that kind of showcases that whole trip. It was a fundraiser for the Nick Wood Foundation and the lead climbing on the Hulk was like amazing.

It was one of, I think I had done like six or seven trad leads before that and then I led like all the hardest pitches on positive vibration, which are not that hard, but they felt hard for me because I was just very much still learning that whole process or not even like I was placing gear well, but it was kind of fun to bring like that competition, like performance mindset to like trad climbing on a big wall where you're like exposed and there was actually 60 mile an hour

winds for the entire day. Again, yeah, very much the wrong time of year to do that,

but it kind of added to the experience and like placing gear. I was like so bricked on this one, like five 11C pitch at the top and like their rope drag was insane because I had not put slings on like the right cans and then you're just like pumped out of your mind like having to use both hands to like, well, I like got to the anchor, like run out with like a 0.0 and a 0.1, like 10 or 15 feet below and then you do like this big move to this like ledge and mantle the ledge and

the wind is like pushing you off a little bit and I had to have like both hands to like pick the rope up to like pull it up and clip the anchor, but that was one of my maybe like most favorite climbing experiences I've ever had because it's just so different and you feel like you're learning so

much and also like incorporating so many things that you would use in other situations. Like I was doing the same like breathing techniques and like visualization and mindset stuff that I would do before a bouldering world cup and that yeah, just allows you to perform at a higher level, 11C level. Well, I mean with the added danger element, I guess. Yeah. Well, that I can't really relate to that because I kind of stopped climbing outside generally like during like after COVID.

I got kind of sick of it and that's when I got into the comp space. So I think that climbing is a little bit too real for me. This is the not real climbing podcast. So we're gonna bring it back in into the not real climbing portions. Yeah. But it's really cool how you can relate that to like the kind of mindset stuff that you have to do for comps as well. And yeah, it sounds like a lot of fun, just not an experience that I would ever want to do. It sounds way too intense. Yeah, it was a long,

pretty long day. But I think understandable why you skipped the Salt Lake comp for that.

I guess when it comes to choosing which world cups you go to, how do you get into the comps? How do you go to how do you sort of decide? Because I guess with like the prize money not being like that much, how like what makes it worth it for you to go to a World Cup? Yeah, I mean, that's a great question. And I think it was kind of only this year that I asked myself that. And it was a lot harder to answer it after having some of these like big adventurous outdoor experiences, where

I was feeling that same amount of like connectedness and using the same techniques. But it was like on my own schedule and where I could I felt like be more present for like a longer period of time. So for comps, I mean, growing up, it would just was like it seemed like an amazing way to like go travel and experience this side of climbing that I hadn't kind of been exposed to yet. And like traveling on the circuit was really, really cool in that in that way and a really fun

place to meet new people and like travel to all these countries. But it was definitely a hard balance to be like, why? Like, if you're doing every competition, like you're kind of just getting worse throughout the season, like traveling like that much is so taxing and it becomes hard to like justify in some ways. So like this year, my intention was like, okay, I want to do a couple comps because I really love competing. And I like like, try to challenge myself and test myself in

these like very high pressure situations. And I think that's when you're able to learn the most about yourself, but also like all of these movement frameworks and like mindset techniques and things that I'm trying to help develop and ultimately coach more of in the future. So like that was why I didn't do Salt Lake. It's like, okay, I don't want to go to a World Cup unless I'm

going to show up like fully prepared. And like that's definitely a very privileged situation to be in because I've like done these comps before and I know what it feels like to show up and having not been prepared. And it just kind of feels like, I don't know, a bit icky where you're like, oh, I'm like, I'm here. But like, I'm not able to like show or like prove to myself like that I'm capable of like, getting to finals or whatever it is, because I know I am but like, I didn't put in

the work to get there. So I definitely this year, I'm trying to do less, but just do it, do it better. And it's hard for me to say no to somebody's opportunities. Like the adventure and the actual comp climbing and all these different, even like, if there's good waves in San Diego, I'm supposed to retrain like, oh, I want to like take advantage of the surfing and then also go climb and like, if you're just really practical about it, you're like, okay, well, that's actually

gonna like make you worse at climbing. So I think it's always like a little bit of a trade off. And it's important to like, live your life and like, do what really brings you do joy. But yeah, asking that question to yourself is huge. And if it's anything but like, it's because I really want to. And there's a hundred reasons why like, you could really want to do a comp. But it's dangerous when it's like, oh, it's because like,

I should or like, XY, like these people think I should or like, because I could do well. But if you don't believe in like your own ability to like do really well and like, or believe in yourself to like, learn and like, make the most of the experience, then maybe it isn't worth doing it, you know? Please excuse this brief intermission, but I've gotten a few requests for this. So I just wanted to announce that if you're interested in helping support the show, my Patreon page is now

live. Some perks include ad free interruption free episodes, deleted scenes, prioritized guest questions, or the ability to submit video questions, an enamel pin is shipped to you after two months of membership, and much more to come. The proceeds go back into the podcast to help me break even, and they help improve the experience of the guests. If you'd like to support the podcast on monetarily, liking, commenting and sharing helps a great deal as well. Back to the show.

Yeah, it's usually like one of my first questions. But for those who like don't know your story, how did you start out with climbing and get into the comp scene? Yeah, so I guess I really started climbing on the redwood trees in our front yard. So I grew up near Palo Alto in the Bay Area. And we had like this 80 foot tall redwood tree in our front yard.

And my dad and I built a tree house like 50 feet up in it. And I guess when I was like really young, we had a couple like ladders going up to like lofts in our house, and I would like climb around on those. Or so I'm told. And then once my dad kind of taught me the rules of climbing the big trees, he's like, all right, always have like three points of contact and like, be safe. But that was like, it was just a big ladder. It's like the most climbing friendly tree I've ever been in.

So you could like run around and I have a clip on my Instagram like from five years ago or something of me like speed climbing the tree and you can like, just monkey like actually speed climb it. It was like 10 seconds to go up like 45 feet or something. So and then I did, I think I had my own birthday party at the gym when I was seven. Yeah, just because my mom was like, oh, like this would be a fun thing to have a birthday party at. And then the next year I did the same thing. And

then I did some summer camps after that when I was like nine. And then I think I joined the team after that when I was like 10. Or maybe like in between nine and 10. That was at Planet Grand at Sunnyvale, which is a really cool gym. Like I went back there this last week actually. And the lead walls are like so intimidating. There's this one feature called the double wave, which is,

it still feels like one of the most like proud gym features. Because it's just like super overhung and like has these like double wave features, hence the name, where if you like fall at the wrong spot, you kind of just like smack into the slip. So yeah, growing up, I trained a lot there and was fortunate to have a really cool coach, Isaac Williams, who always brought the team outside. So we go to Bishop for like Christmas and Thanksgiving and climbed a lot out there

and a little bit in Yosemite and Tahoe. And had an amazing group of friends and teammates there that really shaped kind of the climbing community that I was part of. And we had a couple older guys on the team that we like, myself and a couple of the younger kids like really looked up to. And when I started on the team, they were like climbing B10 sort of thing. And that just like provided this benchmark of like, okay, like I want to train with them and I want to go project and like climb on

the same things that they're doing. And yeah, so I did a bunch of youth comps, like, I guess the first actual comp I did was like second year D. So wasn't like some of the other youth or I feel like some of the kids like Brooke and I don't know, a lot of the other like phenomenal climbers of our generation started climbing when they were like, they had like four years in D, you know, in youth D. But I only

had one year in youth D. What age does that start for people who aren't familiar? I think you can be any age up to like 10 or maybe like 11 or 12. Still really young, yeah. Yeah, quite young. Maybe it's maybe it's only like 11 or 12. And then there's like C, D, or yeah, D, C, B, A, and then junior. And I did, I was like, I did better at ropes at the very beginning. I won like nationals in like youth C, like after three years or something of competing. And then like made a couple like

bouldering finals but never did super well in the finals. I kind of just did the whole like youth youth circuit every year I could. Apart from one year where I accidentally sanded off a part of my cinder nail. Whoa, I never noticed that. So when I was like, yeah, 12 or no, maybe it was, no, it's like 14. My dad and I were like making a campus board to hang at our house because we built like a little

climbing wall as well. And it got caught in the belt sander I was using. That's awful. Like where the belt kind of goes back into the machine and it like sanded it down to the bone. And then like it just rearranged like the skin cells. So we're like the nail cells. So I grew back all wonky. But otherwise, yeah, it didn't really affect the climbing ones. It healed. But for a while I climbed like with a lobster claw, just like front two and my thumb. That's hard. And I mean, now you still can't do

the whole like fingernails behind the volumes thing. Yeah, I can't cheat like that anymore. So just a purist. Don't don't get behind the volume. Yeah. But yeah, apparently it didn't give me Tommy Caldwell level finger injury power. But yeah, I mean, that would have been hard to climb like only front two. Yeah. Yeah, that would be crazy. Anyways, then yeah, I was always climbing outside like here and there, but never really like

going on like long trips. It always just be like a week or something of kind of climbing in a nude zone and exploring around. And then started going to San Diego when I was maybe like 16 or 17, 17. For these Mesa room used to host these like national training camps, where they'd fly in like coaches from around the world and have a super legit team of centers, including Enrico and Al and a couple other centers that are like some of the

best in the nation, if not the world. So I felt super fortunate to be able to like learn at those camps and like all some of the best kids and adult climbers in the nation at that time were like doing those camps. So like, I would not be anywhere close to the best, but like, they're like, I would not be anywhere close to the best, but like, then you're learning from

like some of the best people in the nation, which is really cool. And that definitely kind of accelerated my growth, but it was hard to like climb on that in San Diego, like this comp style and then go back to the bay and not have like really any comp style setting. So we were always just making up our own moves. And I think that helped a lot with like understanding like visualization and having to like understand setting because like we didn't have good climbs

that just go like hop on. It was much more like, okay, like let's try and make up moves on the wall that like forced us to actually climb in like a more dynamic and like positional sort of way. And then when the boulder field opened up, we would go up there and that's in Sacramento. So it's not super far, like two and a half hours, but we go up there like once a month and just have

the most mega sessions. And that was with Tim King and Danny Sayo and Sam McQueen and Solomon Barthes and like a bunch of the kids that were on the Stanford climbing team. So we'd go up there and like literally climb for like four hours, get lunch and then climb for like another four hours and just try and do like every climb in the gym. And those are always

like some of my favorite sessions. Yeah, it was pretty cool that like Tim and I would at the end of those sessions try and go repeat like or do every like purple tape in the gym, which is like the second hardest grade. And I feel like we learned a lot about like how far you could push yourself by like competing and trying to do a ton of these hard climbs, like a lot of volume

after like seven hours of climbing. Which I don't necessarily recommend doing, but every now and then I think it's worth pushing yourself kind of beyond what you're comfortable with and you can realize that you actually have a lot more to give. Yeah, kind of like proving to yourself that you're able to. And it forces you to climb them like really efficiently because you don't have like the power and the strength that you did in hour one of the session or hour two.

So yeah, that I guess thinking about it, I like that was maybe the start of like, understanding the value of like repeating climbs and like being more analytical and like actually forcing yourself, I guess, indirectly in that sense to climb them efficiently. And you were also part of like the class five youth team for a while, right?

Yeah, I guess I was never really on like the youth team. But once I started, I was like, I went to UCLA for two years, but only two quarters of that was in person and then COVID hit. So for those two quarters, I drove to San Diego every single weekend. And I put all my classes just Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday. So I'd like Thursday night or afternoon, I drive to San Diego, stay with my buddy Marco for four days and just climb as much as I could during those four days

because LA has had no good climbing gyms at the time. And now it really only has like one good climbing gym, Long Beach Rising. But everything else is touchdown and movement. So sorry, touchdown and movement, but you guys got to step it up. So anyways, yeah, I was driving to San Diego every single weekend. And actually like taking the bus for a portion of that because I didn't have a car. And then I started just like illegally parking my car on campus and that worked out phenomenally.

I got like one ticket for like the whole like five months I was there. Lucky you. I know. And there was like parked it right next to my dorm, which was epic. And then could go just like camp at the beach if I wanted to, because it was like a little camper van set up. And then come to class in the morning. And that was fun, but not the most sustainable routine of like four days of

climbing and then like three days of just grinding school. So ultimately I transferred to University of Utah after doing the rest of that year online at UCLA and then another full year online.

So I could be like at the US Training Center out in Salt Lake. And then was always kind of going back and forth between Salt Lake and San Diego because my coach Al, who's also the head of class five climbing, was out here and I felt like was one of the only people like really being analytical about climbing and like trying to develop new ways of thinking, both like with vocabulary, but also just like reframing the way you think about movement and really like elevating the sport.

So that was like huge for me to be able to chat with him and like go to their team practices. So then around that time I started like wearing class five shirts, like competing and that felt like home. And then I'd go back to Salt Lake and like climb all the boulders there. And it felt like I'd learned to climb really well in San Diego. And then I'd go to Salt Lake and have like an amazing facility like with the US Training Center to like practice all those climbs and like actually

perform. But it was for me less of a like area or like place of growth and more like performance oriented. And I felt like I needed a bit more of a balance. But in terms of like volume of like good climbs, I think Salt Lake is still the best in the nation. I mean, yeah, that makes sense. It's only fair. Yeah. Through like your youth climbing team experience, like growing up or anytime you've like worked with class five, do you what do you feel like? Or do you feel like there was anything

unique about those programs that makes like specifically successful athletes for comps? Or did they like teach you things that prepared you well for World Cups? Yeah, totally. A ton of it is just the environment you're in. So like having really good setters with the space in the facility to like set applicable climbs with like a good hold selection is huge. And to be honest, there just aren't a lot of like setters that are able to do that.

So yeah, Alan and Rico being some of like the best setters out there are able to like set these climbs that force you as an athlete to like climb them well. And this is another thing we're talking about today at practice is like, he was saying like, okay, like my job is to set this climb, and then just barely guide you, give you kind of clues on like how to climb it well. And then you try it a bunch of times and then come to that conclusion on your own where you like understand

why it's actually the most efficient or like the easiest to do it in a certain way. And then you like actually learn the move and you can like confidently add it to that movement library I was

talking about. So that was like huge to just have exposure to that. And then also like just making up creative ways to like get a lot of volume with certain types of movement and like be confident, just like standing on volumes literally, like having a volume station where all you do is like no hands slapped like that was the first time I had ever seen that was down in San Diego. And we're like spray wall, like movement stations where they set a whole wall that's just like

ski dinos. And for the training camp, like you spend an hour just like doing those skate dinos. So yeah, they were very ahead of the times in terms of implementing like unique ways to like learn and teach movement. And all of their coaching is based on like a movement philosophy rather than like a strength philosophy. It's like you don't have to be super strong to do any of

these. It's all like positional and like you know, you're not going to be able to do it all and like as a setter our goal is to like make you problem solve in this correct way that will like allow you to like unlock this puzzle instead of like you're just gonna like overpower and like

squeeze this puzzle to death, you know. And I'm still learning that today. Like that was a big thing I was actually practicing today at practice was like not pulling too hard on these holds for this campus sequence because it was throwing off my whole like into arcs of my generation were yeah, I don't want to get too technical but like they were no longer as efficient as they could be because I was like engaging on this hold and like really learning to detach like your attachment

points and like how hard you have to squeeze a hold from like how hard you engage the rest of your body. So just because you can grab a crimp and like own it and like do a one arm pull up doesn't mean that you need to engage like your whole forearm and shoulder and back the second you grab it. It's actually better to just hold that hold as hard as you need to just to like hang on it and

then like swing around it kind of like a monkey or like if you're doing monkey bars, right. It's way easier to swing between bars if you're like smoothly flowing and your arm is straight rather than if you like lock off and you have to like hold that lock off as you swing to the next bar. Now you're using like way more strength to do the same movement. So yeah just being exposed to those sort of concepts at those Macy's room training camps and then with Al at class five now was huge.

Yeah and then it produces a lot of great world-class athletes so I think there must be

something to it. Definitely and I guess I mentioned the environment so part of that is like the coaching and setting but another part of that is like the people you're with and when you're around a whole other group of people that are approaching climbing with that same mindset it's super powerful because like right now class five has a open team as well so I'm on that with my buddy Marco and a couple of the the older kids from the youth team but also a handful of just psyched adults and like

setters in San Diego and there's a pretty wide range of like climbing abilities but we're all like learning the same concepts and like looking at improving kind of with that same like analytical approach at least when you're practicing. So it's really fun just to like chat with everyone and be in this like really high energy kind of rich learning environment. So if you're in San Diego want to join an adult team class five is pretty solid Grotto also has an adult team that's very

legit. Yeah it's all very popular nowadays. That my good friend Marco coaches. Oh cool I didn't know he coached it. Cool yeah. Okay yeah so in terms of your competition experience do you have like a favorite IFSC comp that you went to? Yeah I mean they're all they're all pretty cool. My first youth worlds was in Guangzhou China and that was a pretty cool experience like just first time being

in Asia and first time like competing at like an international event like that. But in terms of just like overall psych or like energy I think like the Chamonix World Cup is pretty pretty epic like being able to be on the route and then look to your right and see the glacier coming down and having like thousands and thousands of people behind you. What happened at

um youth worlds in Guangzhou? I mean there wasn't any like particular like moment that was like crazy but just that whole like environment of seeing all these other kids from around the nation and like meeting all these people and just like realizing that rock climbing was like actually this much bigger sport slash like career than I had like otherwise imagined.

Um it was pretty cool um because I feel like like I went there with my family and we spent like a week and a half-ish in like Hong Kong before and then went to Guangzhou and it was less of like a performance like all right you're here to like win this competition. It was more of like a travel experience and like climbing thing but then after that you're like seeing kids that are like showing up and taking it like so so seriously and um I guess that was kind of an interesting

realization for me. Um and I guess something I still kind of like struggle with is like understanding the line between like putting a hundred percent of your effort into one thing and also like making the most of the experiences that come with like competing in other countries and stuff like that because like the World Cup Circuit like you're in these amazing places but if you truly want to like do your best like objectively like you should get there beforehand

and like just rest for like a bunch of days and not like go explore around um which was always like really hard for me so I was I felt like me and a couple other people on the circuit would try and take advantage of those places a bit more than other people and maybe that hurt

some of my performance but I think I enjoyed the experience more overall maybe. I don't know that's very like specific to like each person but like in Italy last year like in Brixton that was actually one of the the cooler bouldering World Cups um like winter out like the day before or like two days before and like did like a super chill like mile hike to go like check out these amazing rock formations on the Dolomites and like that sort of thing always seems like almost like better

for me performance wise because you're able to like connect with nature and just like kind of slow down and be more present and then bring that same kind of attitude into the competition whereas if you're like 1000% focused and you're just in your hotel room all day and you're like this comp is like everything in the world then it kind of amplifies maybe any mistakes you make it almost becomes like this negative feedback loop right whereas

if you take the kind of like degrowth mindset approach like I'm like you to learn and like I obviously want to do my best and um like I was like taking quite seriously but I think more so

than other people I was also wanting to go explore around a little bit. Yeah I can only see how that would be like a hard choice to make I feel like before Veil I kind of just sat around but then all I could do was just sit there and think about like how nervous I am or like I don't know what else to do I'm just kind of like stuck here in this like idle state where it's like well I'm not really taking advantage of anything and now I'm kind of just here and I feel like I'm kind of

wasting a trip but yeah it's it's nice to get to go out and experience it. Yeah I think I would encourage anyone like listening to this that's competing and maybe they've experienced that same like idle like restlessness state just to go like take a walk outside like that's not going to hinder your performance at all like a couple miles or just like walking around and just go like meditate in the forest or something. And I guess so that kind of makes

me wonder so your like best result was in Salt Lake um do you think you were able to like um do you feel like maybe since you didn't feel that need to like explore you kind of had that hometown advantage and you were able to perform better there? Yeah totally.

100% like for two weeks before I was I had like a very consistent routine of like waking up doing like 10 minutes of meditation out on the deck then like reading a book about like mindsets and then every like other day I'd go like jump in the like cold plunge and try and like practice my like reading techniques to like slow down my heart rate and it was a very yeah focused routine and all of my climbing during that period was just at the gyms around Salt Lake where

it was all like performance oriented so for two weeks beforehand I would go do like a full off the wall warm-up and then just climb like the 10s or below like I would basically try and do like every the like six or seven to like the 11 in the gym or at least all the like compi style ones that were like um or movement oriented and just repeat each one like two or three times until I felt super confident in like the method I was doing it

um and then like you have this massive like library of movement and this huge volume of climbing that you've done really really close to like the limit of how well you can climb you know um and then like you do the competition and you don't expect to climb any different than you already have been climbing like I feel like people maybe go to the gym and climb just like so-so or then they like go to a competition and like expect to like climb great or like expect to climb different than like

how they normally climb and for me before competitions it's really important to like increase the average of like your your best climbing like if if you think about like in a competition you're gonna there's all these like distracting variables in a competition so it's harder to climb like at your best you know so before the competition you want to be like maximizing the amount of like really efficient good climbing you're doing and I think one of the best

ways to do that is like repeating climbs and having like a long off-the-wall warm-up so like the second you pull on the wall you're just climbing super efficient super flowy really like snappy and engaged um so one of my like favorite practical pieces of advice there is like hopping on like doing an off-the-wall warm-up like stretching doing a little hangboarding getting your muscles and mind ready including like a lot of breath work and like doing a lot of

like a lot of breath work like how do you want to be breathing when you are actually climbing like warm that up before you get on the wall but then when you hop on the wall go do like a v0 three or four or five times in a row or a couple different ones and just try and do it like super fast and that like I was talking about this during our clinic but that kind of helps get that mind body connection solidified and also just gets you moving how at least I want to be climbing in a

competition where it is kind of subconscious and your limbs are just going where you want them to go and you're able to like think and make really quick and accurate decisions yeah that makes sense and do you also feel like maybe it's a setting preference within like you're more used to the kind of USA style settings so it gives you another kind of advantage or do you feel like there's not much difference there um yeah that's definitely part of it but I I mean there's like the the

setting crew is an international crew no matter where it is but in salt lake there's more American centers um so if anything at least like the comps that I've done really well at in salt lake were like slightly easier boulders that I was able to like execute really well on like I made semi-finals or I've made finals because I did like all four the climbs and like pretty low attempts and same like even just making semi-finals like I had to do like four out of the five climbs in like quite

low attempts then I was like better at that like I could execute like in four minutes or in a couple tries like closer to my limit or like but my highest limit I don't think was like crazy like where like the best people at that comp could definitely like out climb me in terms of like difficulty um but I could be consistent at like climbing to 90 to like 95 percent of my potential in a couple tries but okay well actually I want to rephrase that because that's at least maybe how

I was thinking about it then but I think that's because I never spent a ton of time like projecting really hard climbs and then um coming back and like talking to Al and uh Josh they were like okay like I think you should spend more time like projecting really hard climbs um and then like really learning those moves so you can kind of increase that that bar but I will say I think it's important to like

kind of stagger like strength training to be like after like the execution like all of the visualizing breath work like all these other tactics that allow you to like consistently climb close to your potential like if you're not climbing consistently to like 90 of your like physical limit there's no point in adding strength to that equation it actually makes it a lot harder to like be consistent and learn how to move well um so you kind of think about it like a staircase

where like you get strong or like for most people right like your x level of like strength and then you work to like increase your execution and like understand how to like consistent climb at that level and then you add on a little bit more strength and then learn how to do that same level of like execution and um climbing with that new strength yeah when I when I started working with Al he basically was like okay you have to like forget how to climb completely and like

relearn how to climb with this new kind of framework for like moving efficiently and climbing positionally and making time over the feed and under the hands and like all of these concepts that don't work if you just like grab a hold and pull really hard and I'm still like learning to do that now where like I can sometimes just like overpower climbs because I'm pretty strong and because I grew up like in the Bay Area climbing on these like pretty straightforward

like power overhanging blocks um but then like the real power is like being able to do both of those because sometimes you do need to just like have raw power um but even then you have to like it's more efficient to approach it from like a movement and like uh positional standpoint so would you say that you don't really do much strength training nowadays no I don't do like any right now well okay that's maybe not it depends on to me my strength training but like I haven't

done like much weight lifting or like cycles of like hangboarding like I'll do a long warm-up that includes like some block pulls and these like more like maintenance um or like fight I guess they're like getting your fingers stronger but it's not like I'm hangboarding for a bunch of hours every week or like lifting weights or like a lot of it's like very functional it's like functional mobility exercises where you're like trying to recreate positions on the wall and then

just do a couple sets like twice a week that's kind of all you need to get stronger in a lot of cases like it's a lot more efficient like there's a bunch of studies um around like using drop sets or like end range like strength where it's kind of the same concept as like uh the like strength versus like execution it's like with mobility like if you're not able to like actually use your flexibility then it doesn't really matter and you should spend time like

getting strong and like healthy in those end ranges and then you add on a bit more like flexibility and then you get strong again um so for like finger strength and things like that like if your wrists aren't healthy and you're like your lumbar curls can't take like the added strain of like having really strong fingers it doesn't really matter like you have to be able to use that strength in like a functional range and like especially with comp climbing

like there's all these crazy like presses and like weird types of like engagement where you have to like grab a hold at a really weird angle like where your wrist is all like yeah kind of cocked to the side yeah um and if it's not ready to like take that force then it doesn't really

matter if you can do a one arm on like a six mil crimp yeah going back to like comps that you've uh done um you've also done some like other non-ifsc comp formats um i think i saw that you did like the team boulder arena uh in paris um and then i've watched like a few other types of competitions um what other like formats have you competed in and enjoyed yeah um the team boulder arena too in paris was like one of the most fun comp experiences i've had um so i was partners with

simone lorenzi and uh i guess for people who don't know i have made a youtube video about it that explains like the whole format and everything but the the quick version is uh for qualifiers there were 20 climbs in this big like u-shaped climbing gym and you or your partner had to do uh each climb like in order so it was four minutes on and then you no rest period straight to the next one but only like you or your partner had to do each climb and they started off pretty easy but around

like 13 they kind of got trickier so you'd kind of go around the circle just trying all of them and the climbs would each get progressively harder and if you didn't do one of the blocks then you were like oh so like the 13th problem was like this pretty tricky slab and that got a bunch of teams and then simone carried us a fair amount i felt like in uh in qualifiers where he kept just like flashing them all and i feel like i didn't have a chance to like get warm enough like on

that like more comfy style um but he was also just like crushing it so we did like all all 20 of them and then for finals it was a pretty unique yeah we were the only team to do to do all 20 um and like tomoa and and a bunch of their other japanese team kokoro uh and then like paul and mejdi and like crazy crazy crew at that comp um hey mej was there as well uh and then for finals they had one like really tricky slab climb and one person from your team had to try it and you had to flash it to

to get on to like the rest of the finals so they had yeah and uh simone tried it and they it wasn't able to do that one uh it was like super low percentage but like not super physically difficult um so there were like seven teams that made finals because we tied and then like three of the teams fell on that first slab and then everyone else uh the format was like four minutes on and you and your teammate could try as many times like between the two of

you so it's just like a normal like ifc format or when it's on like um and a full like final but your you and your teammate were like on the same boulder so i thought like it was a lot more strategy between you and your partner like being able to communicate like what adjustments you would make like what you learned from that attempt and then also from a spectating standpoint it was way more interesting to watch because there's just always someone on the wall um so minus

minus the flash boulder i think that would be a pretty cool format to see more of do you like competing in that kind of team way because i feel like i don't really like team sports because i feel really there's like extra pressure that you could also let down your teammate instead of like if you're just competing for yourself you can only let down yourself but then there's just like other person who's also kind of counting on you and i i hate that pressure yeah that's interesting i think

i mean yeah i wouldn't want like every comp in the world to be like that format for sure but for like a spectator focused not spectator focused but like a more like informal competition i think it was it was more fun and maybe just because it's like different as an athlete it's kind of fun to like try and figure out like the strategy behind a different format like that but i think it uh yeah that added pressure is definitely something to to be aware of and like

like maybe that's like a lesson or something you could learn from like oh if i'm like worried about letting down like my partner like why why am i not confident in like my own abilities and like how could i train that um because it's the same thing as like like i felt that same thing where like i didn't flash a couple of the climbs and then simone did it i was like oh shoot like i'm gonna get caught up in this like negative thought cycle and that's a really good time to

practice like flipping flipping that that downward spiral like into like an upward one when you're like okay like i am confident in that and like i am able to climb well and just uh i guess those moments of like higher pressure when you actually can understand that and like learn that about yourself and then it just is up to you to like make the most of that realization i guess

so yeah i guess going into the mindset portion of things um that's something that you practice a lot of and that you preach a lot about um do you can you like remember a time where you were like really close to losing your cool during a competition and then you were able to turn that around yeah i mean there's like hundreds of situations like that whether it's like on a full competition level or like more commonly just on like a boulder or like even attempt level

where like you do one attempt on something and it doesn't feel possible at all and like it all just starts with like that awareness of like realizing like oh like i just started started going down like the wrong path i'm like this feels too hard i can't blah blah blah like all of this all these thoughts that are taking you out of like the here and now and bringing you to like the there and then of what you could have done differently in your competition or even like

the future like negative outcomes of like oh if i don't do this right now then blah blah blah is gonna happen i won't win the comp i won't get to go to the world cup blah blah blah um but like literally none of that is going to help you do the boulder in front of you so just being really practical about like my goal and like i i owe it to myself like i owe it to all the training i've done to stay present and focused and like show up the best version of myself that i can

and i think for me being very uh very honest with myself about what that actually means has been huge and like in the gym or in your practice or anytime you've like accomplished something big like has that come from a place of like anger or like distracted like okay like screw this climbing i'm just gonna hop on and like give it one more attempt or was it because you like actually took a second to like breathe like slow down and like were more intentional

with that attempt um and the vast majority it's the latter um so being able to like notice that in the comp and then really quickly reframe that like negative thought or whatever into like okay like this is actually an opportunity to like showcase all of the work i've put in or like oh i'm feeling stressed that just means i really care about this thing like i i feel stressed all the time but i try and like reframe into a like all like this nervousness is just because i'm really

passionate about climbing and i want to show to myself and other people that like i put in this work and like i learned this thing and like i'm able to like climb to the best of my ability but in order to do that i need to like let go of all of those like expectations and uh any like kind of judgment around that and just like believe in your ability to to perform and i think there's that can show up differently for for people like what that specific like

motivational thing is um but in general i think it's helpful to have it be like a reframe those like negative thoughts and be like a positive like opportunity sort of thing rather than a like oh shit like if i don't do this this will be bad and that's like a whole like growth mindset thing and there's been like hundreds of studies on that it's um like framing it into this opportunity to to learn and grow um and just allowing i think it's important to allow yourself

to still like feel disappointed or like nervous and all these like natural emotions um but just being like realistic about like what actually when do you perform your best or when do you feel your best and then trying to train and get into that mindset as consistently as possible uh that did

not answer your question though i think a specific time that i like felt that struggle and then didn't really lose you're close to uh to losing it there didn't like i saw like world cups for example like in qualifiers or actually like in semi or in finals for that comp like i did and i didn't do the first boulder and i knew i could have and it felt easy i was like oh my god like i just i i didn't stay true to like my training and there was a moment of like an iso before going

out for the second boulder of just like what the heck like i just screwed up and i was like i just screwed up like you also knew that everyone else did it yeah no i knew everyone else had done it and i was just like oh my gosh like what i'm so silly um and then that's kind of like a really good cue for me to just like i kind of visualize there being like four separate climbs like in my mind and like you walk through like one door and i'm like that's one climb it's pretty isolated

from the next climb so like spend the time like reflect on it um and if it's like a four minute round right you only have like four minutes to rest maybe spend 30 seconds thinking about that last boulder and be like okay like dang i didn't do it this is what i could have done i could have taken another breath or just like slow down be a bit more present and then completely let it go like close that door like maybe you visualize like a bubble and each bubble is like has its

little climb in it and then that bubble kind of just vanishes and then it's only like the three next climbs um so i i was proud of that kind of reframing in iso there and um yeah i think i ended up just kind of being like okay like that was silly like obviously i could have done that climb um because it's not super physically hard and i was just a little too angsty like too much too much energy too much thought like cluttering my ability to just climb how i climb um and for me

like that's a huge like realization is like you climb your best when you're able to like execute these moves on a subconscious level and that's true for like pretty much any high performer in the world like i did a bunch of studying around like flow states and these like my what's a peak performance and it's called like transient hyperfrontality when like the prefrontal cortex kind of slows down and you're performing these tasks at like a more subconscious level um

and so like just taking the time to like do a breathing routine or like a little meditation thing or whatever it is um to get into that more uh like present like decluttered state of mind is hugely important so that's what i did i just like laid down on my back in the grass in the back of the iso zone nice um and kind of reset and then came out to the second boulder and and was able to do it um and then the same thing happened on the third boulder where i maybe could have slowed

down the heart rate and like re-centered a bit more after like the energy of the second boulder and then i like slowed it down again after that and then was able to do the last boulder um but that's kind of only something you can not only but that was like my first world cup final and uh it's hard to like learn how to deal with that like pressure and everything without actually being in that situation so i think giving yourself like that little breathing room to like learn a new

um just learn a new like not system but like how to like practice and like be yourself in this new environment is really important and like the weekend before was i'd made like semi-finals and then i had kind of like that same amount of like over over psych like over cluttered energy in the semi-finals that led to me being like a couple spots out of finals and then i was like okay like next weekend like really slow it down don't get led yourself like uh like dump all of your adrenaline

after the first boulder and qualifiers right like you kind of have to play this longer game and it is kind of a game like that like you need a lot of like mental stamina to like get through three rounds of really hard climbing especially when they're like yeah these really high performance like execution rounds where like you have to top every boulder in qualifiers and semis to make a final um like that's why it's it's so inconsistent like in the top of like the

field because even though like everyone is crazy strong and capable of like doing all of these boulders the only people that are like really consistent are the ones that are like able to kind of mindset and like only put out enough energy to like do the climbs and then recover enough before semi-finals or before finals to do the same thing over and over again yeah well it also seems a lot more inconsistent in like the men's side whereas like on the women's

side it seems like there's usually the same kind of people making finals and then it's like on the women's side it seems like there's usually the same kind of people making finals and winning finals but i feel like men's is all over all over the place yeah i think i don't this might be wrong but it seems like there's the top of the women's field is like more distinguished between the bottom of the women's field in terms of like strength and mentality so like they can have a

day where they only perform like 60 of their potential but they're still making finals because like that potential is just like so much higher than like the bottom half whereas the men's field like maybe a higher percentage of the field is like meets that like strength threshold required by the climbs if that makes sense and it becomes more of

like an execution game like who's able to like keep it together mentally and like be consistent with their climbing uh yeah that could be completely wrong but that's kind of a theory no yeah i kind of see that as well um but yeah going back to what you had said earlier you had mentioned like meditation uh one of the discord questions that came in was about your thoughts on meditation um they were wondering if you find meditation to be easier in isolation or if you

also do it a lot when you're like actively climbing like on the rock or on the um boulder during a competition yeah um i find it helpful pretty much all the time but it is a very uh it's tricky to like be consistent with it especially when traveling i find um so i think having like just some non-negotiables for that like all right every morning just like five minutes i'm just like sitting and just like breathing and if your mind wanders somewhere else like that's

totally okay just bring it back to your breath or like closing your eyes and kind of like focusing on that third eye whatever it is like you can kind of like play around and find what feels the best for you but my routine was or is uh like trying to find like 10 to 20 minutes in the morning to just like sit outside and just do a breathing meditation um and then if it's before a competition like actually visualizing like what it's going to feel like to be in that environment like if it's a

gym that you've competed at before a venue you've been at before um like put yourself in isolation like visualize yourself like doing your same breath sequence or whatever it is like in that chair in iso feeling confident in the chair and then like visualize yourself in front of the wall if you know like what the wall angles are you could go through like for each of like the different like slabs or overhang whatever um kind of visualize like yourself breathing doing your

routine putting your shoes on at like one minute or two minutes standing up and like just feeling like psyched and confident like whatever you want to feel like in that moment feel that same way and like prime your your nervous system to feel that same way before the call so i'll do that a lot even if i don't know the same way that i'm doing it but i'm doing it even if i don't know the same like what every venue is like it's my like i have the same routine

like that four minutes is like the same no matter where i am um and so like visualizing that and kind of like downloading that uh that sequence of like feelings and like that energy i think is really important and then once you're in iso you just like kind of replay that same sequence um at least from like a mindset standpoint like your warm-up might be a little different because uh like the warm-up zones are always going to be different or whatever it is but as long as

you can get to that same like place of feeling like really confident in psych and just like all this good energy uh i find that's like a really consistent place to approach a competition from and then it's like during in isolation i'll try and find like maybe 10 minutes before i i start warming up to just go sit and like breathe and then at least 10 minutes before i go out like in the half hour before i go out to just go sit and and breathe and kind of slow your heart rate

down and uh for me it's a lot easier to approach a boulder with like this calm collected state of mind rather than like hyping yourself up a ton and then you turn around and it's a slab climb and you have to be like super delicate like it's a lot easier to for me at least i mean i think this goes for most people but easier to like increase the level of energy in your body um than it is to like slow it down so if you turn around and it's actually like a big huge dino with like some crazy small

crimps you have to like power scream on then it's easy to just like power scream like slap yourself on your shoulders a little bit and like increase the level of energy to the level that the boulder requires but more often than not especially in a competition with like all this extra energy coming from the crowd and environment and just more stress than you might be used to uh you really have to work to like bring your heart rate down to the level of the boulder and i guess this is not

directly related to meditation but trying to seek that energy level out in your training i think is really important too like if every single competition you do you're feeling like okay like there's a lot of energy here and like i'm not able to execute how i normally do because like my mind is just going 100 miles an hour maybe practice doing that in your training and get like comfortable and confident executing with all of that extra kind of energy or like it's a balance between that and

also just getting really good at like slowing your heart rate down and like decluttering your mind uh so it just feels like another day of climbing at the gym like that's when i feel the best is like insult like i didn't even know the crowd was there for like the boulders that i did you know for any competition that you like do really well like when you get into that flow state uh like that transient hyperventilator that said before like that actually means you're not thinking about

like anything but like the present and part of their brain function that like slows down and kind of deactivates is uh the region that controls like time so things start to like feel like they're in slow motion you do a boulder like whoa like what just happened also the same system that distinguishes you from the rest of the world like this distinguishes you from like the pads or the air around you like that kind of starts to fade away so you're literally like one with whatever you're

you're doing and it's a pretty special like place to feel like that connected and i'm sure anyone listening and you as well can like relate to a moment where you felt like that amount of like presence and you've like topped the boulder got done with the run or like i don't know even finished writing like an email or essay whatever it is and you're like well like what the heck like where where was i like that was some really cool place it was just that um so just trying to like practice

get into that state of mind work consistently is huge and like that's my ultimate goal is like if you could tap into that amount of like focus and concentration on demand like it'd be invincible you would it'd be pretty close yeah no it's one of the best feelings yeah no it's one of the best feelings yeah um you've also i think i've heard you mention in like

uh previous podcasts or interviews um you've mentioned like being comfortable with the uncomfortable and i feel like i can relate to that phrase a bit um how do you feel like you apply that to climbing and life in general totally that's a great question um honestly what i was talking about with the visualization before is like a huge piece of that like visualizing yourself being uncomfortable even like on a specific move maybe you're like visualizing a a scary move on a slab

where you have to like rock over a bad foot it's totally natural like feel a little scared and like have that increase in like adrenaline as you like step onto that foot and realize like oh shit i have to like fully trust this thing i might fall down this whole wall or like slip out of nowhere so when you're on the ground like visualize yourself like uh there's a couple cool studies that were showing that the most efficient way to visualize is actually in the third person first so like

projecting yourself onto the wall um i kind of do it like in slow motion like okay like what are the different ways i could do this boulder and then once i figure out um how i want to try it like what the most efficient way is then i'll visualize that same thing in the first person so what does it actually feel like to trust this foot overcome that like feeling of fear like you can pretty much get yourself to feel like the same way you're going to feel on the wall once you like practice

it a lot and like align that mental representation with like the actual physical um representation uh and get to the point where you can like overcome that little bit of like fear and uh that like heightened mindset on the wall and then you climb up there and you actually get to really like oh i've already like i've already trusted this foot in my mind i'm comfortable in this situation and then you can execute with a like way less doubt and like way less distractions than

you otherwise could so i think that's a pretty fun exercise to try um and i could talk a lot more about like that visualization piece of things but working towards like aligning that like mental representation and like that first person like feeling of actually doing the move really efficiently with how you actually do it is huge um and pretty crucial for like figuring out complex sequences in a quick period of time like um like in the gym if we're learning a move right

you can have a phone out and like go watch and dig okay like i actually i didn't i didn't land my foot where i wanted to or like my hips were not moving with the trajectory i thought they were going to be but in a comp you can't have that right there's no coaches or people that like help you um so you need to have a really accurate mental representation so you can like get off the wall after you fall or whatever and be like okay well i wanted to do this but really my hips were doing

this and my hand wasn't accurate here and then you can kind of uh reassess try and get a better plan of action and then this goes back to like kind of the fundamentals of like getting into into flow states but uh you don't want to be like thinking super critically about like okay i want my hand to go exactly here and pulling this hard on that like that's just too much to think about and that's bringing your your brain and focus back into like that very executive stinking um side of

things rather than that subconscious thing so if you're able to visualize it well like have that goal visualize it two or three times in your head be like okay this is what it feels like to do this move efficiently then you take a deep breath smile let go of like that very specific um goal and just have the intention to like move well and your body can take care of the rest and if you're good at that then you hop back on the wall and you're able to like execute and do it like you've

already done the move you know um so in training like practicing aligning those two and repeating climb the loft so your body is able to kind of execute moves at a subconscious level is super important and i guess the last thing i'll say there uh is like being okay like resetting like that while you're on the wall is huge so i think your question about mindset before was like in isoverse on the wall i wouldn't call it meditation when you're on the wall but finding

brief moments to like close your eyes and maybe do like a double inhale which has been proven to be like the best way to slow down your heart rate and kind of get into that super calm focused state of mind and there's a lot more like scientific language around all of this than what i'm describing now but i think it's easier to to understand just in a quick podcast format format um like that double inhale is is super important and that's like the basis of like my

whole breathing routine before the climbing um but also like on the wall if i can find a quick little stance or moment on a boulder just to reset close my eyes and it and then get back into it um i think that's that's huge yeah i uh tried that during the comp and it helped uh well i don't really know if it helped but it did calm me down a bit so yeah that was uh that was a good tip i think everyone should try that out that's awesome

yeah there's a cool podcast from humor man on the more nitty-gritty of why and how that's possible it's like all of the avioli in your lungs are expanding more when you do that double inhale you actually do it like subconsciously like every five minutes in the show um and it like unsticks all of these little membranes in your lungs that process oxygen so you're able to like literally process more oxygen which helps calm your body down because it's like oh i'm

surviving i'm getting the air that i need to like think and breathe um so when you do that consciously it does the same the same thing yeah okay awesome yeah i think uh everyone should try it out see if it helps anytime you're doing something that is a little uncomfortable but yeah going into your non-climbing hobbies you've already mentioned that you do a lot of surfing um you also do like trad which is climbing but it's a very different uh form of it i feel like

yeah um what have you well first of all are you ever like concerned about getting injured from these sports because i think i've heard from other like world cup competitors that uh they're either they're either like not allowed to do outside sports for like concern about injury or they're just like not really interested because they don't want to get injured is that ever like a concern for you um not really i think that the concern is more around like just where my focus is and like

if my intention is to do really really well at a world cup like being honest with myself about like if surfing like for five hours straight is going to help the training i'm supposed to do later that day um but in general i think it's really healthy for me to like have these other creative outlets and other opportunities to like kind of practice like the same routines that i'm bringing into like climbing like when we talk about flow like those habits and routines the same stuff that helps you

get into like a flow state during a competition helps you to perform it like any other discipline of life um so i'm not saying that i'm going out surfing like thinking about like training for climbing um but when a big wave comes and your heart rate increases like that's the same feeling like when you run out and there's a thousand people like all cheering and the music is crazy loud and the lights are flashing in your eyes you turn around and see like some absurd boulder

like that's they're a very similar feeling so when that huge set wave comes and like you gotta like slow your heart rate down like i'm doing the same double inhale long exhale and kind of visualizing myself paddling dropping it and like feeling really confident and like executing um so i think that helps with with climbing or like lots of other forms of of life um and the same thing goes for like skiing or mountain biking

mountain biking um or yeah like trad climbing like i was kind of describing earlier with the Hulk um it's all just like a mind thing like if your body is able to do it it's just a question of like are you able to allow your body to do it like you gotta get out of your own way if that makes sense like you practice so your body knows how to perform a certain task and then a lot of times in in moments of like high pressure the only reason you're not able to do that it's because

you're thinking too much and you're kind of standing in your own way so like understanding that and then developing your own routines to uh get into that more focused concentrated place is huge and so outside of i guess like the mindset part of it do you feel like there's anything physical that you've learned from these other sports that you can bring into climbing yeah i mean i think a ton of like growing up we were always like going camping outside and just

running around on like redwood trees and falling across rivers and stuff like that um and then a lot of skiing as well and like the balance aspect of that is is huge and like the proprioception that comes from like having to control your skis or if you're surfing like hopping up and like being able to move the board how you want to um same with like trail running or like rock hopping i feel like uh we'd always go to this one spot in in tahoe that has these rocks that are like just

poking up above the water and we would or like not we i would try and like run around between the ball and like you start running and you like have the momentum where uh you like have to like jump to the next rock otherwise you're going to like fall in this like icy lake um and i feel like that was really fun to just get comfortable like committing to like kind of risky moves like that and um that kind of ties into another big flow trigger which is like the challenge skill ratio so

practicing at that sweet spot where it's difficult for you and like pushes you to like actually learn and execute at the best of your ability but isn't so hard that it's gonna discourage you from like learning the move or whatever it is or it's like too much of a challenge for your body so they found that about like four percent is the the ideal spot to be at with whatever you're doing so like four percent harder or more uncomfortable than what you've done in the past or what you're

comfortable with like in that exact moment so if you apply that like to a warm-up like if you haven't climbed hard yet that four percent increase is not that big like it's just like four like four percent above like v0 whatever that is you know but then once you're really warm then you have to like push up that challenge skill ratio so you can keep learning like at that edge and i think to make it a bit more climbing specific like before i was talking about like

i warm up off the wall and then hop on v0 that v0 is not pushing that challenge skill ratio from like a physical standpoint right because i've done a bunch of hangboarding mobility like my body and mind are ready to like climb harder than v0 but by trying to do it really quickly and trying to be really accurate and flowy with the feet and coordinating your hands and generation all at the same time now you're upping the challenge skill ratio where you're forcing

your body to like kind of rise to the occasion and perform at a higher level than just climbing it like super slow and controlled so you can make the challenge skill ratio hard for you and in different ways and even like this last week in the bay climbing on disgustingly greasy climbs that were not set terribly well like i was doing that a lot with my friends sorry setters uh this does not go for yeah benchmark or mosaic or the boulder feels um wow this is just a touchstone

hate episode um you said it not me um no no um half joking but uh i think upping that challenge skill ratio in other ways is is super important um and then that like goes with anything you're learning like you have to be really like honest and maybe like let go of your ego a little bit to learn as quickly as you can like there's plenty of moves that i like have not learned and you'll get on your back wow like i need to like really take a step back and like let go of what i thought

i was doing and like assess it from like the ground up okay what are like the fundamentals of this move the having like frameworks like what we taught um in the clinic like space time position and these other things that i'm not going to go into super deep right now because they're just more nuanced coaching concepts that uh will share another podcaster coaching video take a mind to motion clinic yeah it's a shameless plug um actually yeah we're doing a couple at the boulder

field in the bay and then i'm going up to ben to teach a couple national clinics up there and then i try and do a clinic in seattle as well so lots of fun upcoming coaching thing coaching things excuse me well this isn't coming out until probably a month but after that they can check i'll add the link to the website for sure for sure um but just being like realistic with yourself and being like have if i haven't done like a crazy lache to like a blocked crimp on a really bad foot like

there's no way you're just gonna like all of a sudden be like superman and do that move you know you know so like really tone it down and that's a big part of our clinics is like adding those progression holds so you can practice at a level that's makes sense for you um learn the move learn like why it's efficient to like generate in a certain way or like what the end position is and then make it a little bit harder and make it a little bit harder make it a little bit harder

um and then you get to like the harder variation and it's like feels super easy and so kind of like reverse engineering that and like doing the same thing in your warm-up is huge like getting on an easier climb doing it really well and then you bring that same like level of execution and flow and confidence to your harder climbs but for me that's really fun to to practice in other sports serve disciplines outside of climbing um and try and like push that challenge skill ratio

quickly and like learn these new ways to like move and think um whether that's like skiing or surfing or whatever it is ping pong it's super fun as well ping pong might be like the most oh like flow-inducive thing that i do where like after like a couple games of warming up you're just like so locked in and having to like think and move so quickly really sorry you don't you're not thinking because like it's so quick that it has to just be so conscious so you're like oh

you're just you're you're just playing and not even thinking about like how you're playing you just do how long have you been playing ping pong ping pong uh i mean i played a bunch like in high school and i'm not like a competitive ping pong player or anything but uh sure and yeah that would be kind of fun actually maybe we're gonna look into some san diego ping pong leagues but we had like a table at my high school and we had always just played during like lunch and in between classes and

and everything i feel like that's a good uh sport to get into that you don't have to be super

well i don't know do you have to be super fit for ping pong it feels like a long-lasting sport i don't think so yeah maybe a good like wrist warm-up as well playing with your non-dominant hand too is really fun like i've been doing that a bunch recently and i've gotten so much better like i can play like decently well now with my left hand whereas like a couple years ago i like could hit it back on the right side of the table um so that's kind of a fun challenge or like brushing

your teeth with your left hand or eating or like using chopsticks i've been doing that at like sushi oh my god sushi places recently like trying to just eat everything with my left hand and using the chopsticks makes you slow down wait what do you feel like that helps you with uh just like being better at like using your your other hand like i feel like people like for climbing right like there's no reason like i guess if you're you have to be really

accurate with climbing and like grabbing holds and like being able to engage quickly or like articulate your hand in a certain way to like do whatever you're you're doing and so having like a more even like homunculus map in your head right i think is going to be really helpful if you think about the moves in a competition look at how many of the like skates or dinos go to the right versus how when you go to the left and that's because all the setters are like the majority are

like right-handed so it's more comfortable to go to the right and that started to change more recently but people are like climb better going the direction or like grabbing holds with their like most dominant hand so like trying to even that out is a place for everyone to improve it or if you think about like how comfortable and how accurate you can be like with your hands versus your feet like that's a huge thing that people can improve at with climbing like half of

climbing maybe even more is like how well you can like move your feet and like get over your hips and like pull with your feet but we spend like zero time at least like on night like when i was learning to climb we didn't do a lot of like foot accuracy exercises or things like that so that was like part of the warm-up exercises i was showing everyone in that clinic that you did was like right warming up your your mind and feet to have that same level of like accuracy and confidence

uh you can have with your hands so i guess you could start like brushing your teeth and eating sushi with your feet too with your feet yeah that's a good idea i went straight through that yeah um that's funny um one quick little tip around that is like another big flow trigger is just specific goals like you're never gonna get better or like learn something um if you don't have like a goal for what you're trying to do and the more specific you can be with that whether you're right

or wrong like there's a bunch of studies that have shown like just making a hypothesis before you do something will help you learn what you're trying to learn regardless of whether you're hypothesis was right or wrong um so if you're doing a skate move or whatever it is like be really specific with where you want to have your foot land on the volume and then that'll help you like actually build those like motor neurons and like be able to like align like that mental

representation as well as you can with that physical um with the physical move okay um so so yeah those were your i guess like sports non-climbing hobbies yeah i guess i played basketball a fair amount i just started swimming for like some more cardio stuff i was saying so like the last three days no every every other day um for the last six days so three days total i've swam like a half mile which is brutal but now it's feeling a lot more natural and

and yeah it's definitely a really cool full body workout okay wow that's a lot so quick overview of all the sports videos just list all the ones that you're into right now okay i'd say in terms of like time spent right now it's swimming or you know not so we uh surfing and then uh probably swimming right now and then like skiing but it's summer so i haven't done that in a bit um and then like basketball and then ping pong at the gym or whatever and then i like biking

a fair amount of that i've been trying to like do some road biking every now and then just because it's fun and another way to get your heart rate up um and then like mountain biking find back home in the bay or with somebody who has a good mountain

bike wow wow it's a lot yeah outside of your sports hobbies um you also have a lot of like creative hobbies with your youtube channel and like photography as well um how do you fit youtube into your climbing and training and traveling schedule because it is it is a lot with all the things you like doing yes it is it is a lot um that having been i've definitely been a lot less consistent with and like at the beginning like the first season i was like on the world cup circuit

with tim we're like oh like we should just do this youtube thing together and it'd be fun to just like kind of document like all these experiences and like the places we're going um and then yeah with like school and training and doing all these other hobbies it was kind of hard to be consistent with that so uh i would definitely like to be making higher quality content more consistently i feel like this year i'm finally in a place where i have the time because i'm like

graduated from school um and have a bit more freedom like financially with you know sponsors and coaching and stuff like that to like do that at a higher level but it's still very difficult um and something i'm learning about and like doing uh or have just a lot to improve at like because right up until now like the vast majority of stuff on my channel it's like i've done the editing for which is tricky and like a whole other profession to learn you know and i'm like

yeah anywhere close to being like a good video editor but it like works and i think well okay now it's kind of like the limiting factor is like how much time i can spend editing um so trying to work with like a more professional crew of people like so many edit that stuff um it has been a fun challenge and i've got a bunch of cool content coming out so uh i finally have a cool video from seco block in chicago last year that was like super super cool event um and like met

chris charmer there and that ended up turning into like a trip to my orca which i also have a cool video about that may actually be out by the time this video comes out um i think and then a couple other trips like to yosemite like doing seven days straight of climbing in yosemite between like bouldering and trad climbing and big wall climbing and sport climbing and like single pitch trad um so that should be kind of a fun uh recap montage video of like just a week of

trying a bunch of things there lots of time in the river yeah photography i guess began it's just like this really fun way to like capture moments from trips all over and like share those with friends and family and then it's just a cool creative outlet um like trying to look at different angles or different lighting or kind of capture different like feelings and shots and i definitely am and not a like my roommates are both like professional photographers and videographers

and like looking at their work it's like oh my god like you're a true artist and i'm definitely not at that level but it is fun to like kind of share some of these images and things outside of the climbing world and i think it takes a bit of the like the edge off of like i'm not just a professional climber like i don't do well in a competition or whatever it's like not the end of the world even though i really want to but it just comes back to like that awareness of like

i want to do this because i'm like really psyched and passionate about this and having those other things that you're like excited about doing i think helps to lead a more balanced life yeah you don't you don't feel the pressure that this is like the only thing that you can do and that it's still so you like have to perform because otherwise your life is over yeah again it goes back to like framing it into like that positive like opportunity to like do

really well like i've trained and like i've been really passionate about this um so i want to like perform well but i'm not bringing in all of this like the negativity of like oh i have to because my dad says he really wants me to or like my coach is going to be sad if i don't or like whatever it is you know i feel like a lot of people like actually have those kind of thoughts going through their head and i was definitely fortunate to have like a very supportive crew

of people around me including like my family and coaches and all that yeah and then also like through youtube you've kind of gotten yourself into like some coaching opportunities um do you have like a proudest coaching moment oh that's a good question um yeah i mean overall youtube just started off as being like a really fun way to like share these moments but evolved into like a really cool way to articulate my own processes at a higher level and like i feel like i learned a lot just by

trying to share tips and tricks along the way and then even just filming all like more of my sessions was a really cool way to like go back and like actually learn and like connect that representation of like what i thought i was doing with what i was actually doing for an actual coaching moment like going over to to austria and coaching the youth national team there um last summer was really was really cool i'm actually about to post a video from that trip um it's just like a travel montage

of like four weeks in europe and um i think the title will be something like training such like staying fit while traveling uh and i it was a hard trip in that sense because we were just like moving around and like just staying in a camper van that we rented and it was like tricky to like be consistent with my my training and the ultimate takeaway was like just having a couple really valuable like non-negotiables for each day is is huge um but the coaching in austria was amazing so

they had like their own training center there um and i spent like two days with this one there's like uh it was in dormbrit but uh it was like their youth national team that like trains together and they'll all go to like a sports school there so their coach can just take them out whenever to like have training practices and everyone's kind of on the same schedule and yeah it was really cool like to think about the like the training environment that they had created there that

their their coach max had created um was super super powerful and um you have a bunch of kids that like different age levels and abilities that are all like working together and they get a really collaborative like rich training environment so i think that's ultimately what all of our mind to motion clinics are trying to like replicate as well um so that was that was pretty cool to work with and then we did another uh mind to motion clinic where the main focus was just on breathing

and visualization those were like our two big takeaways that we wanted these kids to to walk away with and at the very beginning we like asked everyone um or can we like explain these concepts i mean like okay our goal is to like have you guys feel like really confident with these two things like if you only two things you learned and you're like able to like tell your parents like hey like this is what i learned like breathing like the double inhale specifically um and kind of the

the visualization aspect and hearing all the kids at the end of the clinic like there were a couple times during the clinic when we like sat everyone down and i'm okay like what's one thing you've like learned so far and like what's one thing we want to keep learning um like how how are you going to implement this into your daily routine so you like actually feel confident enough to like use it in a competition um hearing like 12 out of like the 15 people or whatever they're like oh

like the breathing techniques and like the mental kind of reframing was like so helpful and i'd like i know i'm going to use that in the next competition that was a pretty cool moment um because like that's what i would have wanted to learn when i was their age as well and i think that would have helped me like so so much so that's yeah it's been a really rewarding way to like kind of connect with uh climbers old and yeah yeah i kind of feel like teaching kids these like young kids these

techniques of like staying focused and in the moment is probably really helpful for them though because i don't know kids can be kind of crazy with their emotions they definitely uh yeah not always regulated yet so totally yeah it's a fun challenge i'm like how do you synthesize like this pretty complex like process of like down regulating and getting into this like state of transient hyperfrontality like how do you explain that to like a 10 year old

and that's like super rewarding when it when it works um and just like simplifying those goals as much as possible like all right like every time every attempt like i want to like hear you take a deep breath before you get on the wall and then allowing them to like feel the difference and like you don't you're not trying to directly tell them like how to do anyone move but you're kind of just giving them hints and then they have like that aha moment like oh my gosh like this is

how it works like oh it's like taking that deep breath like really makes a huge difference or like just smiling it's like floods your brain with all these like positive neurochemicals that allow you to like climb better uh yeah so that's been fun for sure okay awesome i think that is a good place to end those questions um real quick we'll go into some of the discord questions that came in um so

first one how do you effectively use skincare products like rhino skin repair performance and or others for comp climbing and what should be the goal of filing your skin down i think i see that you have rhino skin in the background so it's perfect oh yeah yeah that's right next to my bed actually yeah i recognize it um i guess my my tip there is like having you need to have like a good layer a healthy layer of skin before you like start drying it out a bunch so like you kind of

have to be thinking like a week or two ahead you know if you're going on a trip outside or preparing for a comp or whatever um you want your skin to be very different for those two situations yeah so i use like repair almost daily i think that's just a really good base that like helps your skin stay healthy um and then performance um has a little bit of like antihydrol in it or like the same active chemical as antihydrol uh and then dry is like a more

concentrated version of that so i'll use like performance sometimes like i don't know once a week or whatever if i'm like in the same area um and then dry spray before competitions like it takes a couple days to like activate i feel like uh or before going outside but it's really easy to like have your skin be too hard and uh i was like surfing a bunch before this last week going to the bay so my skin was like a little softer than normal so i put on a bunch of dry spray

and then i went to the bay which is like less humid than san diego because you're like in the peninsula and not like quite as close to the water like i live like right next to the beach so my skin is like it got used to like that level of humidity and then i put a bunch of dry spray on and went to like a slightly drier area and my skin was like so hard and polished which should not help with the greasy holds um and then yeah so like that's a situation where like filing your

skin can be helpful actually or definitely like filing the creases like where your finger bends or i'll use like a razor blade to cut off any like excess skin in there or when i use dry spray i try and like wipe like use a towel or my shirt or whatever to like wipe out the dry spray from those creases so it doesn't get like just right in between the pads of my finger like super hard because then it just like hurts when if like your whole hand is like leather it just makes it harder

to like bend your fingers i don't think i've quite gotten to that point but good to know yeah so like filing down that or like using a razor blade or also like gua sha-ing it like using one of these like little scraper tools and just like scraping your whole finger or like just those joints to help them move a bit more fluidly and get the skin less leathery or even like help flush out any scar tissue that's in the joints there is a good little tip

um yeah i think that kind of covers it for for skincare but just yeah if you're if your skin is really soft adding dry spray or like these hardening agents it's gonna be a very temporary and like bad fix because then you'll have like one or two layers of like really hard skin over a layer of like soft icky skin and then you've got like just a couple attempts of like hard fiberglass climbing before that skin layer is like gone and you're to like this soggy layer underneath

so it's like better to just be patient and like grow good skin and then have like your whole the whole composite of it be like at the appropriate level of of hardness yeah i really i really hate like the hard skin um i find that if that i climb better if my skin is not super dry it's just like i don't know it sticks into the the holds better no i i agree for like indoor climbing there's definitely why i guess it also depends like what style and like type of holds

you're climbing on like pure fiberglass you can get away with like having your skin like you can get away with like having your skin a lot harder than like some other uh textured like types

of plastic and stuff like that makes sense um okay next question how do you incorporate climbing outdoors into your training um any projects it's a good question yeah um lots of projects too many projects i need to be more intentional with what i'm trying i actually i've been like relatively good with that this year but uh i think depending on what you're training for again like having specific goals but if you're training for like a comp uh outdoor climbing can be very conducive to

that if you are like okay i'm going to practice like executing and like flashing this boulder and then again like bringing that challenge skill awareness to that like how hard can you actually flash like trying to make it an appropriate level so you actually can do that um that's like for me one of the most fun forms of climbing um it's like on-site being or like flashing boulders or sport climbs for that matter but i just haven't done as much of that recently um but like in new

70 i was able to flash king air which is like this super cool pretty high ball a very high ball b10 um that dean potter first ascended and just like visualizing that and like again like the same techniques as you'd bring to a comp but for an outdoor boulder um i like wrapped down it and just like looked at the hold so i knew what i was like grabbing because like in a comp you would know kind of what the holds are um but then like in that environment you don't have all this added

outside pressure and you can kind of try it on your own timetable so i spent like 45 minutes at the base of this thing just like looking at it and getting into like the perfect hand space and then i did it and it felt exactly how i like visualized it and imagined it to be and that feeling was so so fun um where i got to the comp i was like oh my god i didn't even look down like you're 25 plus feet up like doing like decently hard climbing um maybe yeah 25 is probably the

lift um and i was like i didn't even didn't look down wasn't aware at all of like anything but what was right in front of me otherwise like i think it's valuable to like be able to like pull on hard crimps and like kind of be comfortable and then comfortable in that sense um so even like a couple years ago there was a training cycle that my buddy bopper and i did and actually in rica who you were talking to um recommended where we trained like in the gym three days in the gym

one day um and then we did that for like four weeks straight and that was a really cool process because it just got your like your mind so ready to like pull hard and like try hard and they kind of trained the grit and like the the determination that just like not let go you know and then you bring that same mindset to the gym and you're like way more comfortable like trying hard on uncomfortable things awesome okay um this person wants to you know they're a big fan of the uncut

block series on youtube um and they want to know any memorable moments from your early years climbing in the bay and favorite gyms in the bay which you clearly have some very strong opinions on um yeah you should just go to the bowling field if you're anywhere remotely close i mean growing up in in the bay it was a really cool like environment because we like had that really strong team and um some really good coaches that were like talking about a lot of the things i've talked

about like on this podcast and just thinking about more than how strong your fingers are and how many one arm pull-ups you can do you know um i mean planet credit uh san francisco i guess it's the movement sf now right in the procedio like right underneath the golden gate bridge is always a pretty cool venue and i remember doing like a training day there with my whole team where we like ran across the golden gate bridge like from the gym we like started raced all the way

up across the golden gate bridge and back to the gym and that was like the start of our practice and i remember getting back and throwing up because i was trying to beat this one kid i didn't i wasn't very good at running that's the only time i've ever actually thrown up from training um so yeah don't don't do that but uh um yeah that was uh just like a cool gym and like pretty pretty unique walls at the time now they're definitely a bit dated but uh um just a cool

environment to be in be able to like look at the golden gate bridge and the whole bay area there um oh sessions in santa rosa kevin jorgensen's gym is also quite good so if you're in the bay area like berkeley or something like that that could be worth going to mosaic is really nice as well that's newer and pretty small but right in berkeley but they always have a couple good comp climbs and then benchmark is also pretty nice not as much like comfy stuff but they've

got a really nice spray wall that like keenan and katie train on a lot that's definitely like the best spray wall in the bay area like outdoor style like hard crimp bain spray wall um but there's really not a lot of like good comp climbs like like 10 good comp climbs i would say in the whole area at any given moment wow okay i mean that's like with a pretty harsh standard but uh do you feel like it's a lot better

here in san diego yeah well yeah grotto has a good bit i don't think i see as much in mesa rim but yeah it kind of depends mesa used to have like some of the best setting and then some of the setters left and like when other places but on the ropes front i think they still have some of the best climbs like best some of the best commercial set rope climbs in the nation for sure um so yeah props props to that um north city usually has some pretty nice boulders as well

oh right it's just a little far but yeah at that point we have like our own space at the wall which is a really tiny old gym but then i'll build out a whole backspace like a training zone there so we can just set whatever we want and get a bit more experimental with movement and then he has like the most heinous spray wall i've like ever climbed on where like every move you just have to like be very intentional with like the position and how you're like holding the holds and using your feet

and everything like that okay um another question and then i think we might have time for one more

depending on how fast your answer is um favorite non-us competitors or teams to train with well um yeah i mean there's a lot of really cool teams to trade with um i've climbed with like the french team quite a bit um and they're like training center in roul definitely seeing that wrong but uh it's like near grenoble near grenoble in in france is really cool um and they're like setting is probably some of the best best overall like or highest average like setting of any nation

i've been to um and overall like europe like the centers are just like so so good um i feel like they just treat it like an art form and there's a yeah good amount of centers in the u.s that are like that as well but overall there's just like a much deeper like connection and like pride that comes with like setting and like actually learning and getting better and like testing new types of movement and stuff like that and i think that's like because the gyms value that more like maybe

in the u.s it's a bit it's definitely like way more commercialized and they don't care about like like paying the setters enough to like actually have time to like set good boulders or like it's just like a a machine rather than creating really cool climbs um yeah so french team is cool like the japanese team is really crazy just to watch and climb with as well um i mean really like all the teams austrians have a lot of cool trading zones like i've spent a lot of time in

edsbrook trading at ki um their ropes are yeah best best rope climbs like in the world probably at ki um the boulders are a bit not as consistent i would say um at least if you're not climbing on like the world cup boulders that are set like specifically for the national team um um was in belgium for a comp there that was super cool um very high level of setting as well um the italian team is like they're all i don't want to and now i gotta name all the countries so i don't

leave anyone out yeah exactly the swiss team super fun got some friends there the brits haven't been to the uk yet but uh fun to trade with those boys yeah everyone germany you got some fun some fun clouds hit pretty much most of them all right yeah actually you didn't mention slavonia oh yeah so lady is super cool that was like one of my most favorite comps was actually the the one in lubliana right like in the center of town like they built this huge wall it felt like it was like the

most hype comp i've been to where it started at like 10 the finals did they had like a dj playing like crazy loud like house tech music and then like big steam cannons that like went off as you like ran out of iso and the like mascot of the city was like this huge dinosaur so like at sports games you know how they have like the mascot person running around that guy was like on the pad just like giving you high fives and yeah i was a pretty hyped crowd yeah sorry if i left

your country off the list chile brazil it's hard to name all of the countries yeah understandable all i can edit in you saying all of them maybe perfect perfect okay quick we'll

just try to do one more uh trying to find a good one um how's the dynamic in the u.s national team between the guys is it more competitive or supportive uh that's a very good question i mean overall yeah it's very supportive like i it's a super fun career people who like travel and and climb and train with um i think it's maybe more like individualized than it could be i mean that's like i'm sure that's true like high level sports like kind of anywhere but i think

there's a lot to learn from one another and i don't feel like that's always maximized in terms of like learning what like if you make a mistake and it like you figured out a really good solution to it like i want to know about that and like i think we could have more conversations around that and that's something i'd like try just to like ask people about and like start those conversations but overall yeah it's a super group good career people and

very fun to go travel to these new places and go explore these zones with everyone yeah i mean you i guess you don't um live in utah so you're not always training with them um do you feel like that makes it kind of hard i did live there for like three years but for like two years i guess i mean there's not of the national team i guess like we didn't train together as much as i thought everyone would in utah and that kind of is the same same thing i was just talking about we're like

uh actually like in san diego i i learned more because it's like a more collaborative environment like that and but yeah that's like a very big generalization but uh i think it's it's really fun to go back and like have those like super rich training environments in salt lake where you have like when you can organize everyone uh it's like the best but because there's like so many gyms and so many people doing like so many things it's sometimes hard to like actually

capitalize on like all of that energy and all of that like talent in that one zone whereas like the japanese or like french teams are like required by like their federations to like live in the same zone and they're paid some of them to like climb and like be a part of like the national team so they like move to a training center there's like two main training centers one i mentioned like near granada and one in uh font and then everyone like trains there and like you're just

constantly in this like super rich learning environment with like yeah all your teammates yeah i didn't know they did that uh well i guess i thought in japan they're also kind of pretty like individualized and spread out yeah maybe i'm wrong about japan but i thought they definitely like train as it grew more i mean and to be fair like the u.s has gotten like way better uh with that and like having the training center in salt lake is like a massive step because there is just like a

central zone for everyone to climb up but i mean just having the usb so big it's like it's hard to have everyone be in the same place and uh but yeah it's been really cool to have like national team training camps at the tc and like have more coaches and more setting and all of that uh all those

resources cool um that's probably all the questions we should go through for today um yeah thanks for joining me um is there anything you want to shout out or like last words or let people know where they can find you yeah uh i guess my instagram and youtube are just ross fokerson i always love hearing from people like you've got suggestions for videos or other things that you've uh like seeing i've always liked to hear about that and i uh whenever anyone like comes up in the gym or

whatever i always try and ask like what are your like what would you want to see more of like in the youtube videos or like what's the most like helpful piece in terms of like coaching or stuff like that um so it's always just fun to hear from from fans in that regard um don't be afraid to come up and say hi unless i'm super focused um unless i'm doing my my double inhale breath work no i'm joking uh yeah but overall i just i think uh just building that awareness on the wall is

is huge like everything all the coaching little tips and things we talked about today like you have to be like intentional with that and like actually uh want to like get better at something so if you're wanting like have a have a goal have something want to improve that and then just be aware of like how you're climbing and uh then when you hear a tip or like someone tells you like how to actually climb better like implement some certain thing like you have the awareness to

actually do that well um so yeah i would encourage everyone just to to take that kind of like learning approach to climbing if they find it fun like you don't have to like always be like training and getting better but uh it's a cool way to like keep things really engaging and you'd be surprised like how quickly you can progress if you actually just make those goals and like try to get better awesome tips and uh great great advice to end on um yeah thank you for sharing that with us

to end on um yeah thank you again uh good luck in your future world cups this year we'll be waiting for you and it was amazing to talk to you likewise i really enjoyed being on and uh hopefully we do a second one later down the line or something gosh yeah you have a i'm sure you have a lot more to say i have a lot more to ask that i didn't even get through yeah yeah maybe leave a comment on this podcast or one of my youtube videos for other questions you'd want

answered in the second episode yeah definitely oh and for like all my coaching stuff uh either on mind to motion or uh sometime in the relatively near future i'm gonna try and release my own uh like online coaching modules so stay tuned for that okay awesome yeah and i'll link all of it in the description or yeah description boxes and etc oh awesome thank you awesome have a good rest your day thank you so much for making it to the end of the podcast don't forget to like and

subscribe if you enjoyed otherwise you are a super fake climber if you're listening on a podcasting platform i'd appreciate if you rated five stars and you can continue the discussion on the free competition climbing discord linked in the description thanks again for listening