Ep 1: Niklas Wiechmann - What is REAL climbing? Setting for world cup level climbers

Hello and welcome to the first episode of the That's Not Real Climbing podcast. I'm your host, Jinni, and I'm really excited to introduce my guest for today, Nicholas Wiechmann. He's been route setting for over 20 years at commercial gyms and competitions, and he's one of the first

to integrate tricky parkour style moves into climbing. In this episode, we'll get into what it's like setting for World Cup level climbers, how the IFSC chooses holds and setters, different competition formats, and how to improve the future of competition climbing. So whether you think parkour style movement is real climbing or not, hear him out for what he has to say and let us know in the comments how you feel about it. Hope you enjoy this conversation

with Niki. Awesome. Well, yeah, thank you for joining me. How are you doing today? Good. I just came from having a climb at friend's gym and it's good. Weather's lovely. I'm good. Where are you right now? I'm in Marburg, which is like to the north of Frankfurt in the middle of Germany, straight in the middle of Germany. And yeah, my mother's living here in a rural village. There's like 200 people living here in the middle of

nowhere, fields and a dog and sheep and cows and everything. So it's quite lovely. How's the climbing gym there if it's so rural? So the city, like where the climbing gym is in like, it's like 20 minutes by car. And it's like the city has like 70,000 citizens and inhabitants. And the gym is quite small, like 400 square meters inside and outside wall, maybe 100 square meters or a little bit more. And it's super good. It's like really like one of the best like

distinctive setting. I know it's like friends from Berlin who moved down here. And the head setter Lucas has a really good style and character and setting. I love it. And it's like a nice little community and just building up since last year when they opened. Oh, okay. Cool. Well, yeah, I think that kind of brings us right into it. Since you are a setter and you have a lot of strong opinions about setting, I believe, probably. So just starting out, how did you get into

climbing and specifically route setting? So my father is one of the early sport climbing generations. Like he started climbing in the 70s, which was still like with like technical eight climbing and then like his generation and friends of his like they developed like this red point and all these like new ethics. And so he's been climbing for a long time. And he opened one of Germany's first commercial climbing gyms in 1999, which is still running and my hometown,

Kassel. And they started a ballering competition. I think back then in Germany, there were like three bouldering competitions. And I think they started the third one. And they had an annual competition every first weekend of November. And as a kid, I think, yeah, so it was 1999. So I was 11. Since I was 12, I always like had to help like stripping the walls beforehand. And at some point, I was allowed to stay on Monday and skip school and reset the whole gym or help like the setters.

And so I started setting up some point and started helping with the competition setting there and setting commercially. I was 14, 15, something like this. And I did it more and more. And at some point, I got invited to set like local regional comps for the regional like state federation. And I got more and more invitations to other gyms and traveled around from gym to gym setting commercially and comps. And then it didn't make sense for me to go to university like I tried to

go to university. But I was a little bit lost because there was too many people. I didn't know what I wanted to do with it. And at the same time, I earned money with being a freelance root setter. And I never stopped. So you sort of grew up in the community. Yeah, pretty privileged like there

was always climbing around me. And I wasn't pushed into anything. And I stopped climbing a few times as well because I kind of hated it always being surrounded by climbers. I've never seen a hotel from the inside until I was 18 and could afford it on my own. Always like dirtbag like camping,

sleeping in cabins, like always going on climbing holidays. And like it may sound like a dream, but if you're forced to do it, it was like and because my father like he developed areas and did a lot of first ascents and it was a kind of like, yeah, well known in the northern Germany part. It was always like, not like having my parents to climb. There was always like people around my parents and like, what about this route? What about this area? So I didn't enjoy it at all

as a kid. But it was quite cool that my parents never really pushed me when I was older either. They were like, if you want to climb competitions, yeah, there's a train ticket. That's how the train tickets work. You go there by yourself or like just organize it with some of your friends. I'm not interested to drive you to take part in any climbing competitions, which I think was a pretty healthy habit. Okay. Yeah, that's interesting. I've always kind of wondered what it's like for people

who grew up surrounded by that. If it sort of, I guess, changes how they interact with the sport. I think a lot of people who discover it later in life kind of just love it immediately and they're all in and they, I don't know, kind of develop a different relationship with it.

Totally, totally. I always ask myself like, if I would have started climbing later, if I would have continued or liked it at all, what I knew from early on and what my mother also always told me, because she met a lot of these famous people and they're all pretty normal people up to sociopaths. If you want to do something on an elitist performance level, they are like, yeah, so yeah, social-wise, not the best people to be around with. A lot of them are not decent

human beings or have something that's not that cool. That's still the case in competition climbing. That's what I liked about it. I always knew that all these people who are climbing at a blah, blah, blah limit, they're just human beings and a lot of them are like proper assholes. Okay. Exciting. I won't ask you who specifically is an asshole, but maybe one day I'll find out. Maybe you can tell me offline. You said that occasionally you hated climbing and you took these

breaks. I guess what changed for you eventually that made you love it again? I found the cool thing about climbing is that you can do whatever you want. A lot of people think you have to do this, you have to do this, and climbing works like this. But climbing, equal slash route setting, it's a pretty young sport, so you can do whatever you want. If you just want to do slab climbing, you just go slab climbing. If you don't like pockets, don't climb on pockets.

If you just like top roping, for example, I had a nasty fall when I was 15 and I was pretty badly traumatized, but no one actually helped me to deal with the trauma. But from the age of 15 to, I don't know, 21, I just top roped. I'm pretty good at top roping, the steepest stuff ever. I found paths in climbing which I like, and especially route setting. The performance climbing wasn't something for me. I cannot deal with the pressure. I hate walking around three

days through the forest because I have to save my skin just for a really good goal. What do you gain from climbing at your limit? You know that you can do it. Maybe there's a next limit, but you become pretty alone, pretty focused on just one stupid thing, climbing up a rock or plastic stuff. Sometimes I'm jealous of people who can do this, but there's so much more in climbing, so much more movement, and so much more stuff you can discover if you just take the pressure off

and just enjoy moving. The way you move, what you can do, there are so many endless possibilities. So I think finding out that I can be in climbing the way I want to and that I can climb just the stuff to have fun is sometimes weird to other people, but it was definitely healthy for me. No, it's great to just have fun in climbing. I think a lot of people wish they could just do

that. I know you have your nickname, Tricky Nicky. What was your journey into getting that nickname? Difficult to say. My vision was always to offer bouldering and climbing routes. I stopped saying routes a while ago, like over 10 years ago. Just focus on bouldering because it's more social and you can spend more time with it. My goal was always not to push people or to encourage people to get stronger. A lot of times it was like, okay, I cannot do this boulder problem. What do I need

to do to solve this move? I need to get stronger, fitter, in a better physical shape. Because most of our customers are recreational weekend warriors, whatever you might call them, and just people who want to have fun and who don't want to train on a physical side. My goal was always to be able to create easy to difficult problems, up to difficult problems, which are just tricky. So you need to solve more your positioning. You need to work out how something works. Just change your body position

slightly or use momentum. People were forced to engage themselves with the boulder problem and maybe get in social interaction with other people. To create tricky problems instead of only physical problems. A lot of people think I'm not setting physical stuff at all, which isn't true. But this is just Pandora's box once you open it. It came together with a little bit of the parkour movement. For me it was always mixing a lot of different styles. When I went to the

Peak District, I think it was 2014 or 2015, there were a lot of bouldering problems opened up by Johnny Dawes. While I don't have any climbing heroes, Johnny Dawes is pretty cool. Because he did a lot of like, you hop from this little boulder onto this little stone, then you jump to this sloper on the crack. This was kind of like an established boulder problem. Why shouldn't you jump around or run around over volumes and holes? Because it's a use your momentum. And a lot of

people were like back then, oh, that's not climbing. But whatever, you can do whatever you want as long as it's climbing holes. You can put all that stuff on the wall, like buckets, dog, all that stuff, and just create movement riddles or situations for people to enjoy. That's more or less how I got to this nickname. Thanks for mentioning the name of the podcast. Johnny Dawes, was it? Is that a setter that you feel like you were inspired by then? No, Johnny Dawes is an outdoor climber from

the Peak District from Great Britain. He was the first one. He was the first one, I think, who climbed E8 and E9. He had a really beautiful dancing climbing style. So everyone who is into climbing movies, there's actually just, in my opinion, one climbing movie you should watch, which is called Stone Monkeys. And this is the only thing you ever need to see about climbing. It's mid-end 80s England, and it's great. It shows a little bit about lifestyle and climbing culture

back then. Gotcha. Okay, I'll put that in the show notes. You can tell I'm not really familiar with outdoor climbing. I never liked that much. That's all right. That's cool. That's actually what I liked here. When I read a little bit about what you posted, it was like, yeah, there should be people who are proud of not being into outdoor climbing, because why not? And I guess, what was it for you? Did you have many discussions with other people about that? No, I mean, people hate

me for not liking outdoor climbing. But I think for me, I never really liked it because I actually don't like being outside. I'm just like an indoor person. There's just too many elements outside, whether it's too hot, too cold, too wet, whatever. And I do like the tricky parkour style movement more. I think it is a lot of fun to play around on. So yeah, I've definitely more preferred the competition route. I try to call myself a competition climber so that people have some respect for me

instead of just being an indoor plastic climber. But that's kind of odd, right? That people are kind of gatekeeping, are arrogant, are like, this is not real climbing, what you're doing. I had to deal with this a little bit. And I think you should be pretty proud of yourself being like, yeah, like I admire it being like, yeah, outdoors, nothing for me, weather, whatever. And indoors is a good place. Like there are good places in Norway where you can have fun and socialize.

Yeah, yeah, I'm a lot happier this way. So like, what is your response, especially as a route setter, route setters get a lot of hate online for the new setting. People are always saying that in like YouTube comments for competitions, they're always saying that it's not real climbing and maybe it's like too height dependent, too new school, too many like dangerous moves. What's your response to that? I mean, hot takes. I think there are always two sides to it, or not two aspects, two things

about it. On the one hand, like people who sign up for a competition, they sign up to climb like that stuff. So they don't ever know like what's coming. And for route setters, it's always a little bit nicer or a little bit easier with coordination dependent stuff to create a ranking and split a field. Because like judging and guessing, estimating like how strong people,

climbers are physically is super, super difficult. But if you set something really like wobbly and uncomfortable and something where you need to commit, it's just a little bit easier to guess that a lot of climbers might need more attempts. When it comes to all these like short calling, like this is not real climbing, like who's to say what is real climbing? I'm like really sick of people being like so adamant and so arrogant about like, this is not really climbing

anymore. Yes, this is not outdoor climbing because it's indoor. It's like totally different spots. And a lot of people don't get it. It's nowadays like two different spots in my opinion. That's called climbing. That's two entirely different disciplines. You don't go indoors nowadays, mainly to be fit for outside outdoors. You can do this. But a lot of gyms just offer and cater to many different people and target groups and want to cater to different needs. So I don't know whether

it's still an unpopular opinion, but people can fight me online, offline. I'm always there to fight and discuss about the realness of climbing because this is like pretty arrogant and gatekeeping wise to tell people this is not real climbing. Comp climbing in IFSC comps has this style nowadays. There are other competitions which go to a different direction. And yeah, was it an answer? I don't really know. Yeah, I think that covers it. I'll leave your info below if anyone wants to fight you

on it. And maybe you'll get some good messages about that. Yeah, so you say that setting wobbly

stuff, stuff that might be low percentage works well for competitions with high level athletes. At some point, they must have practiced all those moves so many times that it's not surprising for them anymore. I mean, is that the case? Or is there always some way to make it something new they haven't dealt with before? You might think so, right? Like, yeah, yeah, it's a good question. Like, I never thought about it like this way, because once you're in it, no, it doesn't seem

like that. They always try to prepare by like every single move, like even if it's just in reiteration. So maybe let's start from the start. In climbing, there's essentially just two things you can do, in my opinion, pushing and pulling. And you have the three dimensions, like horizontal,

vertical, and the depth of a wall, or like things hold volumes attached to a wall. And even though it's basically like push and pull into different directions, it's always a new reiteration of a move, like a slight like a mutation, a permutation of a palm push over and of a jump and whatsoever. And you should never like, I think you always have to account for the comp environment, being nervous, sometimes seeing or knowing or not knowing the boulder problems, their own weakness,

the order of a round. If you start with a slap, creates an entirely different feeling than when a round finishes with a slap, for example. So there are a lot of mind games. And I think what we did a lot of times, like that was 2013 and 14 with the German team, for example, we set training camps where our goal was to put them into uncomfortable positions, just like mentally wise. So they learn to deal how to behave in a, or like decision making in a situation where they don't

know what to do about it. And I think I forgot the question again. I don't think we will see like so much new anymore, but at the same time, all the moves in a competition are always like new mixes of already existing like moves in theory, but like the comp environment always changes everything up. So they cannot climb the same move again, which they already trained in in training. Yeah, I was just thinking that because after watching a few World Cups, you start to

notice that a lot of the climbers moves that seem like they would have been uncomfortable at one point, they just kind of breeze through it since they've done that same exact kind of move so many times before. Good climbers, right? Or good competitors. And what I'm always more amazed of, or amazed by, amazed of like, what amazes me is like, sorry, I'm not a native. Anyway, it's like that a lot of climbers are not really improving on slab climbing, for example. And slab climbing is

pretty easy to train. It's just like, do it again, do it again, do it again, push your heel down, trust, trust, trust, commit, trust. It's nothing, not that much physical in general, like other problems. So you can always try it, try it, try it. And especially if you're tired, when you're in a good headspace, when you're in a bad headspace, always go to the slab and do some exercises. And that's what amazes me more, because a lot of physical climbers apparently don't want to spend

time dealing with the weaknesses, in my opinion. And that's... Yeah, that trust is hard. But when you say, for example, that a lot of climbing competitions, because that would be a question for me, why other people watch climbing competition, like I'm... Yeah, I'm not over it, but I'm really bored of the COM format and the IFSC COM format nowadays. And that like, what makes

it like interesting for you, if you say like, the moves are repetitive, like, what's so exciting to watch it then? Well, I don't... I think for me, I don't find the moves repetitive, like I still love seeing them. And I think they're still interesting to see. I just wonder for the competitors if they're repetitive. Actually, this year, I feel it's a bit... it's been a bit repetitive with all the Lachey moves, like the swing and jump onto something. But I still like

seeing it. I mean, some people are a lot flowier than others, and it's interesting to see the difference. Man, now you've got me questioning why I like watching them. It's still fairly new to me. I think that's probably part of it.

Yeah, it amazes me always, like, what do people want to see in climbing competitions? Because when I think about good competitions, or just like good sports for me, and I'm watching like a lot of sports, I'm watching tennis, cycling, footy, soccer for all the Americans out there, not like football. Yeah, like Olympic games, track and field, like I just enjoy a lot of. And I think it's just enjoy a lot of sports, but a lot of sports have a rivalry, or you have like a home court

advantage, or like something changes. But IFSC comes, whether it's in Seoul or Vail or Germany, the wall is slightly different, but the holes are also always like different, but different. Then they're like the team is different, same, same, but different. So it's not that USA, IFSC World Cup feels entirely different to the World Cup or the World Championship in Bern. That's something you just see different moves, because like the

setters create something new, and there's like a different weight on the whole event. Because sometimes the World Championship is not really important to become a World Champion, because everyone will forget who's becoming the World Champion this July and August, because it's just about like getting to the Olympic Games. So everyone will forget that. And I'm like, yeah, I'm curious. Yeah, I'm just curious in general, what people,

do they have like favorite climbers, or like favorite vaults? Like is it like, oh, the Salt Lake World Cup is always the best World Cup? I don't know. I mean, do you not feel like there's like any rivalry going on in climbing World Cups? No, you can never say like Adam versus Jakob, because it's never, in my opinion, not there.

There hasn't been like any rivalry in climbing like this, where like two people are at the peak and always fighting, maybe in the early 90s, like Le Grand versus the other French guys. But it's so much depends always on the route setting. While it's like so volatile, the right word, like it's a little bit like gambling. Like it's never like, sure, you know. I love gambling though. Gamble yourself, gambling yourself because it's addicting, like you bet on something. But there

are no betting systems on climbing. That would be great, right? I'd love to bet on climbing. My god. Okay, so I'm curious, what do you think about climbing? Okay, yeah. Oh yeah, maybe we should start that. Yeah, something addictive like that. That'd be great for the community. But the density is so high, like in the semi-finals, like first to get into the semi-finals and then the semi-finals itself, to get into the finals. It's like never like this,

the six same competitors, or like four competitors making it into the finals. It's like really, really difficult to retell and rewrite a story. Like which climber just had an unlucky slip two weeks ago in the finals and maybe now they are really close. It's like really similar boulder problem two weeks ago. And now it's just about not slipping again, you know, like this learning curve, same situation. I cannot think of anything like, and I don't know since when

you watch bouldering or climbing competitions, but please tell me the most impressive climbing moment you ever had in a competition. That's hard to think of. There's just, maybe it's like the amount, there's just so many moments that felt amazing in the moment, but maybe I just don't think hard enough about it. I'll have to think about that.

That's something what I'm thinking about a lot because like in other sports, they're like games, there are moments where like a competition also turned, like you don't, and in computer gaming, you call it like a comeback mechanic. Like if you're down like after two boulders, for example, you get in computer games, like there's always like, for example, for all the, most of people played Mario Kart, I guess like on Nintendo. And if you're like in the last position, you get this

blue shell, which always hits like the further you're back, the better your items are. So you can maybe make it back to the front and get back into the game. But like climbing like this, okay, we got like two people leading after the first two boulders, but that those two people are not able to climb boulder three and four and fall completely back while someone from the back goes to the front. Almost never happens. It's a little bit like maybe some twists at the front.

But it's like I'm missing the spice a little bit. And this could be because I'm like watching it like for decades now, but yeah, I'm always, yeah, always looking like for something else a little bit. The one I can think of that happened most recently, which is probably why I can think of it is I already forget where this took place, but it was like Toby Roberts on like men's foreign finals. I think that was the most most recent one. Yeah, that was in Brixen. Yeah, a few weeks ago.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Okay. You were there for it. Yeah. That was a good moment, right? Yeah, that was a good moment. And we had to, it's another thing like the whole crew created this moment this year and last year, same crew created a similar moment in the male final when I think Yannick Flohe topped something. So it was also pretty hard and like in the last seconds or last attempt. But it's really difficult to create a final like this, which is unforgettable. And yeah.

Well, I mean, if every moment is unforgettable, then everything becomes forgettable, doesn't it? Okay, you beat me there. I don't know. Yeah. Okay. Well, okay. Anyway, we got derailed. Let's move on to like the World Cup stuff since we're sort of on that. And I know you're not like a like an official IFSC setter. But yeah, I saw your video on setting a qualifier boulder at the World Cup in Brixen 2022. And yeah, this was covered a bit in the Q&A video that was on your channel that I'll

link in the show notes, people can check it out. But to give people some background here, just because I think a lot of people don't really know how anything in the IFSC works, there's not much information out there about it. How do setters get chosen for the World Cup? I think you said that there are only six. And is there a group of setters that does every single World Cup? So like for a specific World Cup now? Or how do you become an IFSC setter? Or how do you?

Yeah, like in general, how like, I guess, how do they choose who gets to set for the competition? Okay, let's do it this way. Like there's a pool of licensed IFSC setters. And this how you become how you become an IFSC setter, how you get a license is not a clear process. And people should be aware of, I think, I don't know what happens now with me, whether the IFSC listens to this, but they should be aware of that the IFSC is a sport union like the IOC,

like the FIFA. So it's pretty, it's a circle joke. So it's not an open thingy and not like really like, how do you like not trans visible, like the process is how to get where and how to get to something. It's not pretty obvious. And I think it's a very, very, very, very, very, very, very obvious. And like, how do you know, how do you get to something? It's not pretty obvious. And there's a lot of like, who do you know? And yeah, so it's not a fair process, in my opinion,

to become an IFSC setter. For each Boulder World Cup and Lead World Cup, though, there is one IFSC chief out of these IFSC setters. Some have a chiefing license, some do not. And the chief is, how do those three get appointed? That's a really good question. Even some IFSC setters cannot answer. Some IFSC setters last year, for example, told me, okay, they got a Google sheet with a lot of competitions, and they could apply like for three or whatsoever. And they had to do

this in the next 48 hours. And other people said they don't know. Maybe there's a better process progress nowadays, how to pick and where they want to set for. Sometimes the IFSC, for example, last year in Brixen, we had one of the IFSC setters who was setting in Brixen. And then the week afterwards was the Lead World Cup and Boulder World Cup in Innsbruck. And he was written or like appointed officially for both of these World Cups, like in the event sheet,

he was on both of these World Cups. And on Sunday, no, on Monday after the finals, a friend of mine took me from Brixen to Innsbruck, and we took him with us. And we were like, yeah, when do we start setting here? And he's like, wait, what? I'm not setting Innsbruck. So the process is a little bit like, yeah, out there. But as mentioned before, each World

Cup has three appointed IFSC setters. This year and last year already, some of the IFSC World Cups have a fourth IFSC setter, which is not an official IFSC license setter, but a setter coming through the diversity program. The IFSC apparently has a diversity program where people of not that developed countries and underrepresented groups get chosen to attend other World Cups and European Cups to get more experience. And hopefully with this experience,

improve their home federation and organization. This is no path to become an licensed IFSC setter though. So a lot of these people from the diversity program, they don't know what happens. Some people get chosen to continue, some not. It's also not a pretty understandable process, but setter number four this year in Brixen was Anna, and she came through the diversity program. And then the home nation, the hometown federation, home country

federation can appoint up to three setters. So in Brixen, for example, three Italian setters. I also know that some federations like the USA, for example, they invited some French guys, or a French guy, at some point, even though this French guy, for example, didn't have an IFSC license. So to get appointed by the hometown home federation, you don't even need to have an IFSC license. Well, at the same time, in my opinion, IFSC license is not a quality passport license

whatsoever. I know some IFSC setters, well, I'm like, yeah, okay, maybe not. Well, I was like, I like highly qualified and educated and experienced. Yeah. So it's very interesting to see. So it's very, it's a very unofficial and, I guess, kind of networking process? Like, yeah, there's a lot of networking, maybe the process is a little bit more obvious or official

nowadays in 2023 to get to the World Cups. But like to get, for example, also like appointed by a national federation to be there at the World Cup is a lot of work, a lot of like politics. And I know, for example, some IFSC setters sometimes take some of their prodigies, like some of their friends or like pupils or scholars with apprentices to some of the World Cups to give them more experience, which is nice, but it's not an obvious, like, open process to learn for everyone.

So how did you network your way into setting one of the qualifier folders? Yeah, that's a really good question. So I have a gym, I used to have another gym, and at some point, I started video formats like Boulder of the Week, just to showcase that climbing is cool, and that route setting is also cool. And I did different formats, and just to show ballering and route setting more and more. The IFSC coverage of the streams was never something I'm really into.

And watching it for two hours, and then just boom, cut, fade to black, that's it. And there used to be like competitions where there was like an appeal, for example, because someone stepped on a ball or whatsoever. I think I remember something, Adam Ondra stepped onto a ball, I think there was like a World Championships, a really important thing to get to the world, to get through the Olympic Games, then the stream cut to black, no one knew the results. And then I think he had to

start again at the other world qualifier event at Toulouse. Was it Adam Ondra? But something like this. So the after show, the after event coverage just sucks. Yeah, let's put it like this, it sucks. Like there's a World Cup, stream, boom, and, but you don't have an expert, you don't have any athletes, you don't have like a feedback, like any like review. So I started these World Cup

reports. That's like what the most people honestly watch on my YouTube channel. So I'm taking the stream and analyze like why climb by A climbed something while climb by B failed, because I think this was missing in our sports. And at some point, I started working on top of it on top of it for climbing holes. Brand climb holes.com they have six brands in our portfolio. And some of those brands are IFC brands. And I'm working for this brand to showcase like how our

holes work, what you can do with it. And at some point, like some of our distributors, for example, in Brixton, high five, or is that Italian distributor, they are the sole whole sponsor for the World Cup. So if people don't know, like the IFC doesn't own any hold, they don't own any climbing wall, they go to a city to a federation and the federation's all that's for this way, the federation applies to be able to host a World Cup, then the federation

gives a venue whatsoever. And the venue has to host the World Cup. And they have to bring only IFC licensed hold brands and companies. And these gyms usually don't have enough budget for this or like the hold storage and space is not enough to set a World Cup. And the budget is around 100,000 euros for a bouldering World Cup. Of course, it depends on the hold sponsor. But in Brixton, for example, the material to be able to set these 36 boulder problems, yeah, 36 boulder

problems was material worth of 100,000 euros. And how do I get there? Like I essentially

approached some, I think in 2019, I just went to ARCO to the Youth World Champs because I was because I wanted to talk to the IFC, but I can do my reports like with together with them. And then I just filmed the setters and a little at night when they had their resetting sessions. And I filmed interviews with the setters and with Jackie and other people. And then I showed like

tweaking, resetting how the comp turned out. And people liked it. So I found a new format. And for competitions, which we sponsor, I can go or sometimes I go StudioBloc, for example, this year and then 2020. And Brixton last year, Brixton this year, there will be like five YouTube episodes about like five different boulders and the five different setters of Brixton, how they set their boulder and how the boulder turned out. And in September, I will go to Koper in Slovenia and try to do the same

for a lead climbing World Cup. And because I'm a setter, I'm hanging around like the whole week with the setting team. And a lot of them know me and I don't try to get into their way. But yeah, I'm a setter. So sometimes it's still like really like, ah, yeah, I want to do something as well. And if like, if there's some possibility, then I hop onto the drill as well. And that's how I got to Brixton. Okay, exciting. Yeah, I wanted to go back to when you were talking about the holds

a bit. So you said the like this one company supplies all the holds that they use in the World Cup? Only at the Brixton World Cup. Yes. So the whole distributor, so a whole distributor is someone who just sells your holds. And usually like whole distributors only work in one country. Sometimes they work like in Italy, in Austria, or like being in Lux, Belgium, Netherlands and Luxembourg,

which is like the same area. But a whole distributor usually has like a contract with, I don't know, like different amount of, for example, six brands, and then they sell only these six brands to customers and to gyms. And in this case, like the whole distributor needs to have IFSC licensed brands, which are eligible, like allowed to be set with in the competitions. Are they ever gonna, I guess, use like those super niche kind of holds that are coming out,

like the like the spinning ones, stuff like that? I think the spinny ones, I think there's like 360, I think what you're talking about 360, they have a wheel, like a wheel. Yeah. My pronunciation is wrong. Doesn't matter. And they are a licensed IFSC brand. I think you always have to pick, you have to apply for all the holds. Or like you have to pick like certain holds of your portfolio. And the spinning thing, I think it's a safety risk. So we will never see it. They used to be,

they used to be, ah, when was that? I can remember, I think 2011 or 2012, we had at one of the German cups, we had like a free hanging volume on ropes. And they, it's just safety issues. And yeah, so they got rid of it. It's also like, it's safety issues and more difficult to judge. So they got rid of it. And I don't think they will ever get it back onto the IFSC stage. Yeah, that reminds me of one of the questions from the discord. Is there any IFSC setting rule that you wish didn't exist,

or that prevents you from setting something that you would want to set? There used to be, I think it was also around 2012, 2013, there used to be more running starts. So what we see nowadays is like the starting position has four tapes. So it's like always like four points, four limbs to those parts. While for example, back then, it used to also be possible to, it was possible to have like two tapes and a square or a huge rectangle to tape off a surface. So you could, for example, run onto

a volume, so two feet on the volume, and your hands just touching the wall. And you just touch this space. And there used to be more like running jumps like from the floor. And I think there was like also four tapes, but different kind of taping. So you were allowed to use the volumes before the tapes, stuff like this. Yeah, I kind of miss this a little bit, because like action straight from the ground.

But otherwise, yeah, no, no, not that much. Yeah, I wish we could do more stuff with fire, but like, yeah, I don't know. Jump through the burning ring of fire, like I'm still trying to find like the gym, which allows me to do this. Yeah, I think it would be pretty cool. Yeah, maybe, maybe bring that up. And we'll see if anyone is willing to do that. It'd be great to see. Okay, back to more of a basic question. I'm not sure if this is something, this is probably something routes that is good a

lot, but I think a lot of people aren't aware. When you're setting for climbers who climb the hardest, like at a World Cup level, what's the for running process like for boulders that are, or I mean, boulders, routes, whatever that are harder than you can do yourself? And yeah, you were also like sick at Brickson last year. So I'm sure that makes it much worse. Yeah. So in general, it's always a team effort. So they put like,

yeah, I don't want to make any advertisement, but I'm doing it now. So if you actually want to see it, like get really, really deep into it, like how they set a boulder, check out my channel, because it's like, you can see it for one hour, how they just set one hour. But in general, it's a team effort. So the whole round has like different styles and characteristic curves. And the team sits together, or the chief says, okay, this is physical,

this is technical, this is coordination, this is freestyle. And then you either pick something you feel good with, or you get something pointed to set something. And then you set it and then you set it. And in general, at the World Cup so far, I've been to every single move has been done, but they never climb or almost never climb a boulder problem from the bottom to the top in one

go. They have so much experience. And it's also experience guessing, like how much like the second part, how difficult it is in combination with the first part, which you tested in the morning and tweaked slightly afterwards. And then you just go on and test the upper part. And how you in general do this, it's a lot of experience watching stronger climbers. And at some point, some of the

team step back, don't test everything anymore. Maybe they test the next day. And it always comes down, sometimes like to two really strong people, but the rest of the team watching, analyzing, helping those testers and setters all together, like thinking about solutions. So it's sort of like, as long as you guys can do each move in isolation, it's okay, maybe. Yeah, I haven't been to a World Cup where they say, okay, this move hasn't been done,

but I'm pretty sure that climbers can do it. But I myself have done it many times. I love a little bit of a gamble, but like not on a World Cup stage. Yeah. And so do you sort of study the pro climbers to know what kind of moves they're comfortable with, what kind of moves they're not? It depends on like what kind of setter you are. Let's put it this way. In a qualification round, you see, I think, 90 bowlers in the male category or 100 men, and I think it was 60 women or 70,

something like this. So you already see them. And the setting team can always compare the qualification round to the semi-final round to the final round, depending, talking about the difficulty. So sometimes on a qualification round, they set one of the best players in the world. They set one bowler which they think has like the same difficulty as one of the semi-final bowlers, just to be able to compare. And then some of the styles or some of the sections,

parts of the bowlers kind of like ask a question of the climber, how strong are you? How flexible are you? How good are you at reading a sequence? How confident are you to jump out of an uncomfortable position? And these can be answers for the root setters like in which shape or in which state of mind climbers are. And then according to this performance on a qualification round, for example, they can tweak the semi-final accordingly. And then the semi-final, it's only 20 more climbers.

It's pretty, pretty, pretty difficult. So they ask again the questions of physical technique, how to read bowler problems, how to perform under pressure. And then for the finals, after the semi-finals, the semi-finals get stripped, everyone goes out of the stadium or the venue. And then if there's a curtain, like the setting team can start resetting the finals earlier. If there's no curtain, then there's like an isolation time where all the finals have to be

in isolation and are not allowed to take a look at the wall anymore. So the setting team usually has like a few hours to test and tweak the final climbs again if they want to. So they know, for example, what happened on the semi-finals and in the qualification bowlers. And then they are like, OK, Jongwon climbed this physical bowler really easy, and he's in the finals. So our physical bowler in the finals has the brief that only one climber should reach the top. Then we make it a

little bit more difficult. This could be an example of how they go about the difficulties and how they watch climbers. Sounds stressful. Yeah, it's super stressful. And it's connected with a lot of emotions because it's not a science. Like I said, like it's educated or experienced guessing. Like you never know how strong a climber really is. You never know what they can really do and you never know really how the conditions are because like finals start, they start setting

finals on Sunday. Then they test and tweak until Monday noon. Then Monday afternoon, they start setting semi-finals. Then Tuesday testing and tweaking semi-finals. Then Tuesday evening stripping the semi-finals. Then on Wednesday, they start setting qualification group one, or like one gender qualification group. Test, tweak, strip. On Thursday, they set the other

qualification group. While you have like a quiet, great time at the venue on Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday, on Wednesday, there's already like people from the IFSC putting cameras onto the wall and mounting stuff. Like the venue, like all the video screens go up and stuff like this. So like there's a lot of pressure, a lot of people around you and every day like you deteriorate with skin and power all over the week. And yeah, so there are a lot of like factors coming together,

especially for an outdoor venue. Like sometimes it's sunny, humid, wind, it's changing all the time. So yeah, a lot of pressure. Yeah, there's a lot of issues with outdoor venues. It's like the worst of outdoor climbing, but put into indoor climbing as well. But anyway, yeah, that sort of leads into

another one of the discord questions. When there's a lot of differences in between styles of the climbers, or for example, there's like one climber who's way stronger than everyone else, like if Yanya is going to be competing, or if a climber has practiced a certain move a thousand times, how do you set to account for things like that? In general, there's a guideline, which is kind of like too broad to, not to define, but on the other hand, it's really difficult to define it.

You try, or the setting team always tries to ask as many different questions of each climber as possible. So they set a very diverse round all over each round, but they try to. And you gotta imagine it's five boulders in qualification, four boulders in semifinals and four boulders in finals. And each boulder is also split into two parts, like to the zone and after the zone to the top. And in each boulder, if possible, you try to have like different styles sometimes, or sometimes you

mix dynamic to the zone and another kind of dynamic to the top. But like they try to create a different mix already. This also heavily depends, of course, on the wall shapes. In Brixen, for example, for the finals and semifinal walls, it's not allowed to use the side panels. So like the whole frontal wall, every panel is overhanging. So it's pretty, pretty difficult to create non-physical tricky slab, for example. So there are different demands, different goals, different

ways how to create a good mix. If you have someone in the finals who's always way better than the others, Janja for example, then they try still to create like four boulders, which split the field somehow. It's not like, okay, this boulder is only for Janja, because that would mean that the other three boulders are only there to split the other three athletes. And what they did really well, for example, this year, there was one slab in Prague where Janja didn't win, or Janja won, I think.

Janja didn't climb. So maybe it's due to a foot injury. Possibly, yeah. Yeah. But I don't think, for example, at Studio Bloc 2020, when Janja was competing, it was not about like, okay, this boulder is only for Janja. We were always thinking that all the

boulders are possible for everyone, like for all the competitors. Yeah. But maybe for listeners, or like for the listeners out there, like Janja and Natalia Grossman, they apparently, or like I heard many stories that they are when it comes to some boulder problems, which are not length dependent, that they are able to climb for the guys. So it would be really cool to have a competition at some point, or we see them competing all in one category.

Yeah, so many people want to see that. That would be amazing. And that's sort of a rivalry, isn't it? Janja and Natalia a little bit. Could be. I don't know. I don't know how many times they really competed in the peak performance against each other. But yeah, could be. Yeah, they actually haven't. I think a lot of people were hoping for this year, since people heard Janja was going to be coming back to bouldering competitions.

Maybe we will see something at the World Champs. Sorry to interrupt you. Oh, no, no. Yeah, I think like, both of them have sort of had issues and they're not really competing in their in their primes. So, but yeah, anyway, let's talk about the future of route safety. The future of route setting. What, so there are kind of like trends in route setting in a way.

What do you think is like the current trend and what do you think is next? Are we talking about competition setting now? More like route setting? I was thinking competitions, but I don't know, is there a huge difference? Yeah, I think there's a huge difference between competition and commercial setting. People have to have to should be aware that in competition setting, it's a high pressure environment, time limited wise and only constrained limited amount of holes to create a result.

So sometimes there's a lot of like gibbing, bricolage, a lot of like plastic gets screwed onto plastic, which is never in a commercial environment, the best thing to do. On a competition, there's only like a few amount, like a limited amount of people climbing on something like this in a commercial environment. I would be like, if you really want to put this plastic on this plastic on this plastic on this plastic, it's something I would consider.

I would think about a lot. Let's put this by so there is like a big difference between competition and commercial setting because you can set like more dangerous, more risky moves for people on higher performance scale. And the future, maybe more of the slippery dual techs. I don't know. Honestly, I don't think there's so much innovation anymore since the last six, seven years. The dual techs was the last real innovation, but on the other hand, like there's just like

more directional, bigger holes. There's a lot of nonsense holes on the wall, which take a lot of space. But now I think we need to see something, some changes in the competition formats to make it a little bit more exciting, in my opinion. Interesting. So no like movement trends that you can think of? No, it always seems like there's something new, but it's just like small reiterations, in my opinion. So it's not. Now, some setters try to go more into this or that direction,

but then it heavily depends on the setters. And if someone said something, then a lot of this stuff gets not copied, but like repeated in a different way. Like you mentioned, like the laches, I call them a swingerling, where you like swing forth and back. It's an easy way to get like a final round going to create like some action and also split a field. But I think there's not that much more evolution in climbing moves itself happening, because the question is like you have

to set it. It takes a long time to set something super fancy, fancy. And then the climbers have to solve it in four respectively, like five minutes. They have to find the solution and then still like execute it and do it. And then at the same time, you want to create a ranking with it, that not only one climber can do it, but maybe two climbers in different attempts. Yeah, yeah, I've been a little bit pivoting here, I think.

That's good. I think, yeah, it's hard to even imagine what other movement there would be out there. I mean, I feel like everything has been tried or done. I think recently people have been trying to set a lot of like 360 moves. But it's kind of hard to force that maybe. Yeah, and it's like, it comes and goes in waves, I think like these 360 moves are like usually a campus to a pocket, then turn 180, go to the next one and turn 180 again. Is this a 360? But

like we have this many, many times. And it's okay to have something like many, many times. I love a good reiteration or repetition of a good move mixed with something else. But it comes and goes in waves, I think. And a lot of people like set us when they see something, they try to they try to recreate it to understand how the move works. And that's, that's cool. That's fair. Yeah, I in terms of 360 moves, there's been a couple recently, where you're like pivoting

on a foot and trying to go around. But I think what happens is a lot of people, especially since it's new, and they're not familiar with the time crunch, they try to just break it. But that's been sort of exciting. Do you think people will get tired of these like trendy moves and people want to move on to the next thing too fast? Or? I know that a lot of competitors get tired of it. A lot

of competitors ask for power, pure power problems, where they can show their strength. And a few, a few competitors don't like the problem solving aspect that much, because it doesn't feel like they can. I don't know, like, I don't want to speak for them. I just know that a few are complaining that they are not enough power problems. But it's difficult, like I said, like, there are no rules,

what is the power problem? What is like this coordination problem? And the foot spinning move, it works like if you try to set it at your own gym, it always works better in a corner. And because like there are not that many corners on the comp climbing wall, it's pretty cool that they can pull it off with these dual text volumes where you can only step blindly into it. And yeah, competitors breaking a thing. I think it's their goal to find a way to the top. So it's totally

fine if they try to break something, as long as it's like cool show. And it's not way, way easier, but just like same, same, but different. Cool. For me, it's cool to see this, because it's also way of problem solving and being like flexible, being like, yeah, I cannot do this. Maybe I find another solution. And yeah, I like this. Yeah, people love beta breaks. And so in terms of the future, you mentioned climbing formats a bit different formats of competitions. Is there a format

that you like the most in terms of watching or setting? And you also recently set for, it was called like set and send competition. Yeah. Yeah. Is that like a different format that you liked or yeah, what's one you like the most? So I think my favorite format of all times is called hard moves. We had it in Germany, I think 2010, 11, 13, and 16. 16 was the last reiteration and we will never do it again. But it was like 2016 was like, I think 26

participating gyms or maybe more or across Europe. And you competed for your own gym. So you try to qualify each gym at like 60 or 100 boulder problems. And you try to climb as many as possible top or nothing. That's how you get a point. So maximum 100 points and the top 10 competitors of each gym qualify for that gym, seven guys and three women. And then it was called the then there was a battle motors. For example, out of these 26 gyms, only 10 moved to the final climbing gym

where there was like with their teams. And to get there, for example, four gyms or six gyms out of the area around Cologne battled on a battle day in 30 boulder problems as a team again. And then it was like really important that you if you were the strongest climber and you could climb potentially all 30 or 40 or whatever all all boulder problems, is it worth that you climb all 30 boulder problems

and are climbing all the time on your own? Or is it worth that you maybe only climb 28, but instead of spending time for two more boulder problems, spend all the time with the teammates and try to push and give beta and encourage and brush so the whole team gets more points? Then once you made it through this battle, only three out of six moved into the next battle. We had like one final location in Wuppertal where I think was 10 gyms. Now must have been more gyms even more because

the gym was packed with like 400 people for sure. Anyway out of these another battle one day, like five hours, only six gyms moved into the super final which was in a pool like an indoor swimming

what do you call it like an indoor spa like with a pool. What do you call it? Yeah and so the walls were built above water seven meters high and we had then in the finals every team puts six climbers into the final two women four guys and there are six boulders to climb and everyone climbs only once so the team in a team effort has to sit down and appoint each respectively climber and the sixth boulder was hidden so it was like five yeah and then you climb only you get points the higher you go

and it was like really climbing in a team and shearing for a team and this is like something really similar to what I mentioned in the beginning. Popular sports are to grow climbing into mass popularity in my opinion you need to have something you can identify with as a fan whether it's a

climber a rivalry or a team but if you try to qualify for your hometown gym as a whole team gym you've been through like six weeks sessioning together then you went to the battle day battled other gyms then you went to the final day and you climbed together the finals like the the atmosphere is way better than any World Cup way better than any World Cup because your identification it's like it's crazy like you're winning for your city for you for your gym I think this is pretty cool

and we've done this a little bit on in March we did this in a gym in the Netherlands that people qualified in open category and amateur slash recreational category and then a lot of people were waiting for the normal like usual format okay the six strongest dudes and the six strongest women climbing against each other but then we people didn't know then we just packed like the best guy with the worst guy and like best so we created like four equal teams according to the

qualification or did we have five teams whatsoever and they climbed in the same format in the final so they had to appoint one climber for each border problem and I think that was pretty cool yeah this is probably not the future for the IFSC because the IFSC just goes Olympic into the IOC and this is not feasible to to explain to sell to to we people should always be aware of that the

IFSC was founded for the clear goal to make climbing Olympic oh really yeah this there is an interview on my channel I can give you the link with my I did with Marcos Golares on our interview where he clearly explains how climbing became an Olympic sport and it also if you think a little bit about it like you will it will show you like where climbing will go easier to understand and whatsoever which is fine climbing is still like a really young sport but people should be

aware of or what I'd like to share is like that nothing is set in stone like you can do any climbing competition you want by climbing so young do with it what you want try new formats go out there and experiment just because you see something on the stream doesn't mean like that's the best for our sport for our community or especially for your local community um there are so much stuff you can do there are so many rules unwritten so much fun you can have

especially with fun local comps just in my gym we do 30 qualification blocks and then three final blocks for each category and only three tries for each boarder finals quicker faster over sometimes it works sometimes not and I think that's what people should be know about the the comps in general and comp future I think it will be a little bit easier to understand maybe they put like numbers at some point next to the holes so it's more obvious to see who climbs

which and what and they should also be aware of that the combined format was like something what just needed to be done to include climbing in the olympic games and that there were like many crazy ideas beforehand I think there used to be competitions which had a shootout motors and at my home town gym we used to do this uh six finalists start in boulder number one four finalists go to boulder number two and then only two go to the last it's yeah it's highly unfair

because if you don't like the jump in boulder number one you won't maybe not make it to the physical boulder yada yada but it's really spectacular and that's what as far as I know the ifsc or the president planned for the first combined format he was like okay first we will do speed then bouldering and then lead because lead is his special like his favorite discipline but like the best lead climbers would have never arrived in the lead shootout because like from 20

to 12 to six finalists first all the speed climbers kick all the slow lead climbers out then the boulderers climb the rest of the lead climbers out then you have only boulderers and speed climbers in the finals on lead so this would have I think that was the proposal as far as I know and then like all and then all the federations stepped in and were like no no no we need to develop a different format and then they developed this different format like in a few days in 2017

which later then used in 2018 again at the world championship in sprook yeah so the sport is pretty young there will be more changes and especially if you're not bound to the ifsc I'm happy to see new components and new ideas there's always something you can do yeah definitely send me that video that sounds really interesting um I'll put everything in the show notes um and it would also yeah I I hadn't ever thought about this team based approach uh with like different

cities and stuff that would be really interesting to see but I guess Japan would just blow everyone out of the water so pretty much don't have a good time against team b pump but when it comes to when it comes to like my idea would be that for example you have a world cup in the united states you have a world cup in france you have a world cup in italy uh whatsoever around the world but

that each world cup feels a little bit more it feels different for example in the united states it's uh maybe it's an exaggeration but like a lot of the american set-ups like to be a little bit more physical and with deep big pinches and it would make sense in my my opinion if to make it feel more american only use american brands kilter e-groups i don't know like more stuff like this just as a majority too so the american climbers always have like a

have a pro what does it mean like a benefit benefit like a step advantage advantage yeah sorry advantage that's it but then when you go to france for example you climb on french slabs on french grips i mean it's it's a little bit more delicate so you always know like ah french world cup it's pretty technical then you go to italy where they have like steep limestone roots for example and small pockets and also italian brands so we have this hometown advantage and every world cup

feels like super different that would be really nice because take a look at tennis you start with the australian open it's hardcore then you go to france you play ron o'connor you play on sand on clay where you had rafael nadal who only lost like three games in his whole life like he won 112 games lost only three so that's a advantage and then you know like now i'm going to slovenia and it's not only because it's janja with it's like the whole slovenian team is so used to the

their slovenian walls slovenian brands so it's like really really like beating the slovenian in slovenia this would be like something yeah like that's what i'm thinking about would be like cooler for the storytelling and yeah it would be like super interesting but like a lot of other sports have this like tennis again like wimbledon right now in london and in football slash soccer in europe you have like this hometown advantage with the hometown fans

it's just very very different i don't know whether it's like the same in united states but yeah like you have this um nba like you have the best of seven you travel like three times four times back and forth that's just like if the whole town is like in one wipe and you know like there are people coming from the outside trying to win in our town i think that's a pretty different vibe to okay we all go together somewhere and have a good time which is fun and it's nice like it's it's

cool to be in a in a world cup hosting town which is small as brixen or like some of the lead world cups like villars there's always climbers everywhere around and it's a nice atmosphere but yeah a little bit more of rivalry or like something like some spark would be would be too bad in my opinion i wonder if that would bring more money into climbing in a way i think more money into climbing is only possible if climbers have more person personality i think

it's pretty it's it's speaking for our sport that the most well-known climber in the world is alex honnold of course he did something pretty crazy but like he's also i think he's on the spectrum right like i oh i have no idea anyway like he's he's he's super funny super like honest and super like out speaking yeah outspoken with his thoughts and it's super charismatic but a lot of these please tell me your favorite charismatic comp climber um i love stasa yeah stasa is good

stasa is good okay tell me more who yeah who would you take to put into Oprah Oprah is not on air anymore i know that but who would you put on air on oprah's couch and they had like two minutes to describe why is climbing so cool or come climbing i don't know yeah it's hard it's on the one hand it's it's the format which is difficult to explain and on the other hand like which character could go out there

and be like climbing is fucking dope and climbing competitions are even more dope so here sponsor me yeah i guess that is hard um i don't think i consume enough sports content to know who that person is for other sports though are there a lot of like famous other sports like like sport like tom brady like all the nba players it's like michael jordan like created like a whole lifestyle bread lifestyle brand but like it's yeah but it sounds like you ask the question

like to bring more money into climbing the thing is there's money money in climbing but not like into in competition climbing like the climbing gyms we are doing well we attract more and more people we get nice people we build nice communities we're trying to make life better for root sellers which is difficult we should try to get more diversity in we should try to improve diversity in climbing in general in comp climbing there's zero competition in climbing but we should try

zero to none it's fucked up like especially for root setting um but like there's money in it like there are people millionaires and climbing due to the climbing gyms and um but there's not that kind of money what we think there could be in climbing competitions yes we don't have rolex or fred perry as a sponsor of stuff like this yeah the sponsors i guess that might be part of it well stuff to think about um i think yeah that's that's everything i wanted to cover um anything else that we didn't

get a chance to talk about that you wanted to bring up no i hope i didn't come uh i didn't sound too negative about comp climbing or like the ifc it's just like that i'd like to use this like

to show people that it's not like not everything is set in stone do what you want if you're open like to have suggestions like try them on their own like approach your gym as roots had us as a community come up with ideas like there's so much cool stuff you can do and just because it's streamed online on youtube at the ifc it's not the only thing which is what's happening and climbing and especially tackling problems like diversity and gender problems in climbing and the

creation of groups of climbing i'm pretty sure the ifc will not solve these problems we have to do it on our communal commercial area and especially like saving the outdoors or treating teaching people how to behave outside if people like to go outside i always say stay inside watch twitch play play computer games watch all the other sports it's okay it's also fun but like all this educational stuff and how we behave as a community where do we want to go as a community i think this happens

with our climbing gyms we visit on a daily weekly basis and if there's anything we didn't talk about let me know i'm always happy to talk about climbing if it's more about route setting you want to know specific in specific like how route setting works feel free to hit me up or watch my channel yeah would you like to let everyone know where they can find you if they want to learn more about route setting holds just following your journey yeah my name is niklas wichmann but

everyone calls me nicky and you can call me find me on instagram uh with schnicklas or beta route setting on youtube awesome all right well thank you again it was so great to talk to you yeah thank

you for the invitation and uh have fun climbing and have fun with this podcast hopefully let me know what you think yeah because like with the podcast it's always a little bit difficult to receive feedback that's my um experience and if there's like anyone out there has like any thoughts comments concerns like hit it hit me on youtube or whatsoever like write into the comments i'll read usually everything and i'm thankful to get feedback and whether it's negative positive

i can just learn with it and then we see what happens yeah same here cool thank you hi if you made it all the way to the end of the podcast here thank you so much for sticking with me and i hope you enjoyed i'm just starting out so please i welcome any constructive feedback or suggestions you can leave them in the comments below if you're watching on youtube or you can leave it through a review or you can reach out through my competition climbing discord server also linked in the

description throughout all of the platforms thanks again for listening