Tragedy w/ Kellie Martin

Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories, Dunner.

I love that.

Hi, everyone, welcome to That's messed Up. But I'm Kara Klank, I'm Lee's a trigger. We talk SVU crimes interviews. We've got it all.

Baby LA's Hottest club and it truly is this town sucks.

No's hottest club is That's messed up.

We're so thrilled that we have another week jam packed episode. Am I scared for how you are going to react to this episode?

I am. I can't not gonna lie. Everybody go easy on Lisa.

She's really just trying to look at everything with a critical eye, and I respect that. Yeah, I would like everyone to know I have had dozens of you reach out to me telling me that it's okay to fire my therapist, and I want to let you know that I did do it.

I did over texts.

Tell my therapist, by the way, you missed my appointment yesterday and I think I'm gonna be pausing therapy for now. I didn't give her like a full rundown. She did try to come back and act like it was my fault. I did write her back and say, please look at the text messages above and you'll see that you're wrong, and she was like, oh my god, I'm so sorry. And then I just said thanks, thanks for understanding, and

To start back up. So it was like a very clean, respectful.

Break and you probably felt so free after. Yes, yeah, I was just talking to someone where it's like you can fuck up, but you have to just admit when you're wrong and apologize. And it seems like your therapist was not able to do that task, so should she be a therapist. I got a lot of people talking

Okay. So I'm like, I.

Have these issues and then I'm like, my have it and then you guys, well you can fix it, and I go, no, thank you.

So I'm wasting your time. My time. So I think I have.

To stop talking about because I'll go to the doctor. The doctor will give me what will help me, and then I won't do it. So, you know, one step at a time in personal growth, and one day I'll get to will you just put this lotion on?

So but thank you?

And then I'm eating croissants on Instagram Live. It's like I but I have cut back and I don't have bumps, so whatever. Okay, So someone tweeted this and I loved it, and I wish I just heard it down, but I want to give them credit. Maybe we'll post about it. But what would each detective order at Taco Bell SV?

Yeah?

And I thought that was such a fun game. Did you see someone wrote that to us?

No?

I didn't. Maybe we'll play it at a later time.

It's a lot to throw at you, Kara, and you're not even as familiar with the menu.

Yeah, I'm not. I heard so many.

Options but I just we could also do a different type of place. But like, I like the idea of picking what our detectives would order at different fast food chains.

No, that is fun. That is fun. I'm trying to think. I know it's too much, too soon. It is early. We're wild women. I mean, I'd love to hear a couple of throw a couple at me.

I think I kind of understand the difference between like a Chimney Changa and a Gordita and like a Supreme run for sure.

But I didn't even I wrote it down to talk about, but I didn't even plan. But right now I'm thinking Benson goes for a crun trap Supreme when she needs a real treat, like I think she goes for that. I think if it's quick on the go, she might do the protein menuo or get like a simple like a hard and like a soft shell hardshell taco with chicken meal, because I think she I think she keeps

And Rollin's at three am smoking a cig at a casino blackjack table go and hit me like, I mean.

Yes, I had cigarettes?

You No?

Oh you did? Yeah?

The moment you said it, I was like, Oh, I had two cigarettes?

I shir did I s Did you probably have two cigarettes? Like a month?

Right?

You don't smoke a lot?

No, but I feel it like the actually don't feel it today. No, I just the moment.

Yeah, I don't know. It's like, is it a moral failure?

No?

I loved it.

I loved smoking the cigarettes. It felt so good. But when you're hanging out with someone late into the night, if they're smoking cigarettes, you're gonna smoke a cigarette.

Yeah, I or not?

Some of you you know I'm from I'm a I'm a former big smoker. I personally can't dabble because I know I'll slide right back into hiding packs from Jared like that that will happen within weeks.

Did you quit when you started dating Jared or did you quit before you met I was quit.

When I met Jared, I had quit, and then I started a little bit because he smoked, and I was like, oh.

I mean, like, do you want to go outside? You know, like whatever.

We were dating, and then I fully quit for five years. Soon into us dating, I quit for five years. And then my bachelorette party is where my friend started forcing me to smoke cigarettes.

They were like, you've been quit for five years, who cares?

And then I sloped down that slope pretty quick and I was buying packs, hiding them, sneaking out.

Yeah, very Carrie Bradshaw of you. Yeah you're Carrie and Misty. How do you feel that yet?

But I'm quit now like years without really any cheating.

Like I cheated at a bacherette party that you and I were both at, and I took two drags and I was like this was a mistake because I was extremely drunk, and I was like, this was a bad idea.

And then I like, I really barely ever changed.

I think we had the same thing at that bachelorette party where we went so hard Friday that Saturday, I could barely even look at liquor. Yeaike, I was mostly eating those little Munster Hawaiian bread.

I remember having full conversations with you at like the club because you and I were like sober yea. And then I had to escort one of our friends home because she was too blacked.

Yeah, And I procured the Mollie and then wouldn't take it, and I people did try to bully me into taking it, and I was like, no, I'm not in the mood for malli.

Oh.

Someone did write us a while ago saying that they don't like that we promote drug use. Well, get with it, bitch. How do you like that we do drugs here? We do drugs on this podcast in this house Lives Matter, and we.

Do drugs, and this house Black Lives Matter, we do recreational drugs.

Let's get one of those posters.

See what else do we do?

And we watch SVU.

Okay, So I met someone new yesterday and they talked about SVU in a way I didn't like, to the point where I went, I don't think this is working.

I don't like the vibe.

And I.

Ended the hangout very early.

Ah.

They were just talking about SVU in a way where I was like, oh, I don't I don't think this is gonna work, just being like, isn't that funny, And it's like, no, it's actually heartbreaking. So I don't think we're gonna that's not funny at all.

They were like talking about the show in like a flippant way kind.

Of yeah, and it was like it was Careese's family and it was like, oh, Caresee's dumb sister and that fat brother in law and all of that. And he was like and she was like laughing, and I was like, yeah, I care about Coreesy and his family, and yeah, like that.

Brother in law was getting sexually assaulted and it's important that we tell stories about men getting sexually assaulted too.

Yeah, it was wild. It was just like I'm out, I'm out. I can't have you talking about SVU in this way.

Wasn't it Susan Sharon. It was Susan. It wasn't just another thing.

It was like Susan Sharon gave us a performance and it was a great episode and it's about people trying their best and getting out of the system. And it wasn't funny, and there were funny moments in that episode. So I was just like, I gotta this isn't gonna work. Wow.

If you are somebody who has also kicked someone out of your house or life because of their views on sv Please dm us.

There were other moments, there were other like it was, and then that was the one that was like I gotta go, Yeah, you gotta go. And I think our listener we have to keep the short and I think our listeners will appreciate that outside shoes touched my bread spread and I had to go get your shoes off my bed, and that was a bit crazy. It's crazy. That's when I was like, that was the moment. It was just like a lot of mom.

You've got to ask people if you're even allowed to wear shoes into their house to their floor.

I know, but I love it. It's hard. I live in a room, so.

Well sure, but you just in the bed. I'm just saying the bedspread is ten levels away from the floor and should never even be approached.

It's a problem. Well, listen, let's get in there.

We do have a super sized episode today, lots of info, so we're gonna I know, you guys are like talk as long as you want, but truly, this is a big one.

So we're gonna keep that episode because we.

Have a famous crime, we have an outstanding guest, and we have a classic episode that is a three hour trifecta. So yeah, love you guys.

All right, this is Tragedy Season five, episode one, the season five opener.

Everyone.

The show is really hitting its stride, and I read that this episode marks svu's move to Tuesday nights at ten o'clock from Friday nights, and Friday nights is usually where they send TV shows to die. So I think they probably started SVU on Friday nights because of like the subject matter, and now season five it's kicking ass and they're moving it to Tuesday nights where it can really pick up some fans. And obviously I'm not talking about TGIF for Friday nights.

Yeah, because if I was thinking that silently here, I know all of you were, yeah, excuse me, the teenage witch.

No no, no, no.

Like family programming obviously huge, but like if you have a show, a favorite show, and it moves to Fridays, starts saying you're goodbyes, it's it's probably getting canceled. So we open on a nine to one one operator taking a call. She can't really hear anyone on the other end of the line at first, but then she hears an altercation where a guy's like telling a woman to start the car.

She's crying.

They can tell that she's probably dropped her cell phone and that she's getting carjacked. And there's no location, only a cell phone number, and it is a nine one seven number. And I would just like to say that I always deeply coveted a nine one seven number when I moved to New York because that was the first exchange after two one two that you could get. And I got six four to six, which is, you know, set, it's the third one, it's just not the second one. And so we hear the guy say I'm not going

Yeah, but I think the older ones were shorter. They've gotten longer and longer. Yeah yeah, yeah, Now you can go to four locations.

I'm writing a page and a half of notes before we're hitting credits these days. Yeah, But then it's really great the end of these credits, it's like, such a good crew.

It's the whole original crew.

Plus I've count iced Tea as original uh and then in cabit, so it's a really fun, really fun crew. So Act one we open on our buddy Ruben Morales aka Terreu aka Joel de la Fuente, and he is playing the call for Benson and Stabler and they just are like bending us over and giving us the exposition as usual. They're like, we've been after this guy for a month. He blitzed his first four victims from behind, then he knocks them out, rapes him, and steals their car.

Least to the Studio Arts League.

So on the next scene, we open up with the legend Magda from Sex and the City Lynn Cohen. Very exciting and yeah, and she's a wonderful actress who has been on two episodes of SVU and died right before the pandemic in February of twenty twenty. And honestly, I'm jealous of her anyway, take that back, just saying she got to miss out on COVID. That's kind of nice now she had.

Her other SVU episode's iconic. She's like a meatball maven murderer. Yeah, so yeah, it's the best.

But here she's like this fun, easy, breezy like art lady. Clearly has like a second home in Santa fe Like it's very fun, and she's got like long flowing hair, and she's explaining like what the artists collectives, what the

So they go to her.

Apartment and the super is all vary when you're here your family, like, He's like, we all look out for each other. I checked on Onnica last night at nine o'clock. I've never heard of this building. I don't know where this building exists where everybody's looking out for each other and the super comes to check on you, but here

Does luds mean? I don't get it the luds.

I think luds, hold on, hold on luds stands for something. It stands for like local usage details that would fit our podcast.

Yeah, we talk about details all the time, local and global.

Yeah, dump the Luds an SBU podcast. Okay, if anyone ever comes for our name. So the super SSS he hasn't seen any guy around the apartment since Daniel Lester moved out her ex boyfriend.

He was a carpenter.

And in true SVU fashion, this super knows exactly where his tenants ex boyfriend works and where that is located. So it's like, oh, he works at this place that's a fancy Granville construction whatever. So they go talk to Daniel. He looks concerned. He says him and on Agar are not in touch. Munch random emails like he knows nothing about a baby, and then in walks quite the pair. It's Kelly Martin of life goes on Fame, who I'm

She's so prolific.

You've seen her in something for sure, But what I recognize her from always it always is in my mind. For some reason, was a nineteen ninety five TV movie about the McMartin family called Indictment The McMartin Trial. Do you remember hearing about the McMartin family. No, I was just about to ask, what is that They ran a daycare and they got accused of molesting the children in the daycare and they didn't do anything. It was a

But she was a member very Children's Hour.

Yeah, and I remember her so well from this movie that I watched when I was, you know, like a kid.

So anyway, this woman, surely Night I recognize from this episode because it is that iconic of a perforements and I just love that she looks wealthy.

Yeah, we have not mentioned that either.

Like, this episode to me is like top ten iconic episodes, Like I always think of this episode. I've seen it probably at least ten times. But it was cool to rewatch it, especially now as someone who has given birth.

So we'll get into that later.

Anyway, these two blow in and they are clearly mother and daughter. They come into the room, the mom is blathering about flowers, so obviously there's some kind of wedding in the works, and that we are introduced to them as Rose and Melinda Granville. Melinda the younger is Kelly Martin is Daniel's fiance, and Rose Granville, the mother is his boss, so she owns this, you know, lucrative Construction

What a blessing.

It's amazing. Yeah, one of the best movies ever. And I wonder if her and Maloney went down memory lane.

You know that's so true. Yes, that's so true.

I wonder if they hugged, if they ate some brown rice together during lunch, like.

Yes, what the vibe was?

Well, yeah, okay, so Wet Hot would have come out two thousand and one. Ah okay, so two years later there were united. I wonder if he got her the job. I wonder if he's like, there's this great girl, Abby Burns.

Sure that it was like a really bonding set like I, you know, and everyone was making each other laugh. It was so many like young people about to pop Elizabeth Banks pull right like I.

It just was I bet they became friends.

I'm yeah, I wish we could find out how they interacted on this set together.

But it's exciting.

Well, I'm I just like love this character in the movie so much like my sister and I and my friends from camp, like we always go don't go, Like it's like this line she has, like and like, you know, Ken Marino's always like wait for me, Abby Burnstein. So like this is if you watch that movie, this is a fun little easter egg for you. So basically Abby Burnstein slash. Anica's sister Laura is telling Benson and Stabler that the father of the baby is.

A one night stand.

He's not in the picture, and she's like, Anica's like so excited to be a mom. This baby's all she ever talks about. So yikes, we're not like this isn't like a great picture that's being painted here. Back at the precinct, Ice is definitely looking at the glass half dead. He's like, yeah, maybe the guy freaked when she was pregnant, killed or dumped her body and took the car to

Okay, so now the tension is high.

This is one of those countdown episodes that I don't think you like, but this is where we are.

I like them.

I just the ones I hate are only when they go to talk to an old man who committed crime. Oh yeah, to find versus secrets, you know, I don't like.

Yeah, before he dies, before the statute delimitations runs out.

Yeah.

A pregnant woman in distress my favorite.

So they get a call that Morales got something off the tape and they are they rush to Taru and figure that out. He basically has isolated all the noises on the call and figured out from like the sounds of honks and the sounds of turn signals and noises that they are somewhere by the FDR, which is the highway that runs up the east side of Manhattan. So now they basically are at some area by the FDR that they think looks like a good place to ditch

He, you know, expertly.

Jimmy's the window open because Stabler knows how to do everything. So Benson says, somebody targeted Anica, called her, lured her out of her apartment, kidnapped her. This was all planned.

And I mean, Melinda Warner, all the CSU texts, their whole job is like to lead the case for like give a big clue. But his, for some reason or the most magical of all, I don't know. He's usually just comes in drops a bah I'm Lee's and maybe I'm paying closer attention because he's so hot, But like his scenes to me always seem like the news is always high stakes, exciting or a spin or I don't know.

I like I like Burt.

And remember, if you guys remember Joel de la Fuente, he said that when he joined the cast that he was supposed to play Bert Trevor, and they changed the name to accommodate his but somebody obviously still had a boner for the name Bert Trevor. Yeah, he brought in another guy to play Birt Trevor. So, which is Burt Trevor is a very like TV name, I feel like. But so the top of that two, Craigan's like, what's the motive? Like what's going on here?

They're all like they're kind of teasing out, like what the story is. You're like, what could be going on? And Craigan goes, pregnancy elevates a woman's risk of intimate partner violence. Just in case you needed any more proof that being a woman is fucking awful. Everybody, Okay, this is the information that we're getting from Craigan that when you're pregnant.

I thought people just like cheat on their pregnant wives. They didn't realize they start fucking hitting and murdering them.

Oh yeah, I think so for sure.

So liv suggests that maybe she got snatched for her baby, but like, still, there's no way that somebody who was on the prow for a baby just stumbled upon Anica on the street at three in the morning, you know.

Ready to pop. So basically the luds have been dumped.

And at three sixteen am, Anica got a call from a payphone a couple blocks from her apartment, and then that was fifteen minutes before the nine one one call, so this is all matching up. So then she made an outgoing call to a car service. They said they sent a car for her for an out of town fair,

So she obviously called the car service.

Then thought, oh, I could get there faster if I drove, and then just decided to like map quest it and head on out to Jersey yourself. So now they've brought the sister in. Abby Bernstein is back and she's like denying that she had anything to do with this, and she also confesses that she hasn't talked to Anica in a few weeks because they got into a fight, even though she had previously told them that she had just talked to her a few days ago. So it turns

I was in Boston. Why would I kill her?

And they're like, because she's carrying your child and you're about to marry another woman. And he's like, it's my baby. Like he has no idea, but you do believe him. So they're basically like, you guys broke up fourteen months ago. She's eight months pregnant. Clearly there was some post breakup dabbling, and he's like, I went over to pick up some tax receipts. We had a drink, then another drink. We fucked like it was like just whatever. We just laughed

It's a four hour trip.

He could have gotten rid Ofvonica so that she doesn't fuck up his plans to marry into a rich family. And Finn's like, guess who has a rap sheet? Daniel assaults, disorderly conduct, et cetera. This guy's oh yeah, crazy. So they walk into the precinct and there's like a full phone bank happening, and Kragan's in his like Sunday bests, like little pins and bobs with his navy suit, and he's like, one pp wants to go public. There's only twenty four five hours left save Anica. So we got

She shows up. I just love that scene so much.

When she shows up and everyone's screaming at her, and a car rolls up and it's Rose Granville Shirley Night, and she shows up to speak to the reporters and she's like, Granville Developers wants to offer a one hundred thousand dollars reward, and she knows all about the baby and says, my daughter loves Daniel and that matters more to me than his one little you know, fuck up so well.

And they're wasps, and I feel like wasps, very like the McDougall family and Sex in the City, like you can like, yeah, they slide problems under the room.

Yeah, yeah, you can cheat.

And also like a reunion hookup with an X eight months ago is different than like, oh, he was out patronizing sex workers or doing something that would bring more shame to the family, you know, in their words, not mine. So they're back at the precinct and Stablers goes, oh, they ripped a page from the OJ playbook posting a reward for the real killer. So he obviously thinks Daniel did it, and that this family's being like, we'll find the real killer. And I didn't even know that OJ

He knew Daniel Lester was the father.

And they're like, did you set a meat And he's like two hours at the pedestrian island on sixth and fourth Avenue and the guy said Daniel has to bring the money, okay. So then they're strapping Daniel with a bulletproof vest telling him what to do. Rose brings the money in in a briefcase or whatever, and then Daniel is standing in the middle of the street like on the pedestrian island.

And I don't.

Understand why people always think the cops are not coming to a ransom drop, like you just you have to figure out a different way to hand off ransom money. There needs to be like wiring to an account in the Cayman or something like that, Like the cops are always going to be at the ransom drop. And so this random dude starts making his way to Daniel he's like generically sketchy looking. So he walks up to him and he goes give me the money, and Daniel's like,

And he's like, you know gone.

So recently saw Ronnie Ching reposted this video and it was two guys in New York fighting on the subway platform and one guy fell into the tracks and the guy he was fighting with went picked him up.

They like hugged.

He was like thanks for saving me, and then they started fighting again, like in each other's faces, and he and Ronnie wrote like this is New York in a nutshell where it's like we might hate you, but I'll pull you out of this.

Yeah, I'm gonna let you get run over by a subway car, but then I'm.

Gonna don't care about that.

We're fighting again, like it's just so beautiful place.

Yeah.

So basically at the top of back three, we're figuring out suck you Daniel.

Yes, why did you do that? Let's send to the cops.

Yeah, well I think that they set up that he has a rap sheet to show you that he's got.

Like a temper.

You know that this is like because you before that you have this idea that this is just this like nice guy that works at like a construction company, and like you know, now he's like you get the temper thing because he just pushed a guy into fucking moving traffic.

Uh.

And the guy's name is Greg Jessic and he's basically muscle for hire. He like posts himself in like like crazy gun magazines being like hey, I'll do weird jobs for you, like kill people. And then he was obviously Paige paid to statch Anika.

And now they've got nineteen hours.

So they go to Jesse's apartment and Stabler's like what a dump And it is pretty gross, and there's tons of pictures of Onnica, like tons and tons, like he's been surveilling her. They find like meticulous records of what she does every day, like he's been clearly tailing her and writing down her every move, and they find records of two Western Union payments that came from a bank in the Caymans, and the Caymans unfortunately won't tell you

So they go to Sing Sing.

They're talking to the warden or whatever, and he's like the guy who called his name Sam Marlette. He hasn't had he hasn't had any visitors lately except for one Daniel Lester, And they go talk to Sam Marlette and he's like, Daniel always looked out for me. I'll die in jail before I say one word against him. Okay, that's how you want to go.

He's the Roxy Andrews of Sings.

Yeah, so true. So now they're at Daniel and Melinda's apartment and she's defending him and Benson goes, stand by your man. Sounds a lot better when Tammy Wynette sings it okay, Benson, and they find brochures for the same Cayman bank where the payments to Jesset came from. And I'm just like, loll a brochure as evidence. It's just so funny to me, Like I don't know, I just don't know why you have like a bank brochure, Like you just open your account.

Why do you have a brochure?

But she tells them basically. They're like, there's a lot of evidence against your man here, Melinda, So where is he? And she's like, he's at the new building site. So they go to the new building site where they arrest Daniel in front of his future mother in law and boss and Rose is.

Like, oh, call my lawyer.

So now we're in the final act of this episode, where the fuck is Anica?

Let's get going.

So, what's up the dude you just killed by accident happens to be the excelmate of your best friend Sam Marlette? Is that a couincient? Like what's going on? And Daniel's like, I have no idea what you're talking about. And they're like, listen, you only paid Jesic ten thousand dollars. The reward from Granville was one hundred thousand. It was too tempting for Jesick. He wanted both payments. So Daniel's like, I never met

And it's really weird.

It's like a very weird turn, Like he just gets kind of a look on his face and he's like, you're right, I did it. But he doesn't know where he took her. He doesn't know where Jesic took her. He's like, I hired Jesick, but I don't know where she is. And Stabler's like, I'm going to put the needle in you on myself. And then Rose Granville shows up and is vehemently defending Daniel and she says he loves Melinda and he isn't marrying her for her money,

But cocky CSU tech do not bring you around for nothing.

She used uh she was able to unfold it, like it took her an hour to unfold it without like obliterating it. And then she used lasers to see what was on the receipt. So she just like fucks with all these nanos on the laser until she can see that it's a gas station receipt for the Rockaways.

And Stabler's like, I know where that is.

I just spent my summers up there because he is so fucking queens.

It's ridiculous. And uh no, I follow a.

Couple and they I think they could have afforded a house anywhere, but they got there's like summer weekend home in the Rockaways.

And I think it's genius.

Yeah, Like while close sit in traffic to go to the Hampton's when you can take the fucking train if you really want.

It's so smart.

On the beach, you're close to the city, you could stay and still go to work.

Like I just I really impressed with. I bet that's going to become bigger and bigger too.

I bet you the Rockaways is going to be like blow up, yeah, because that's like like the Hampton sure whatever.

It's like the traffic in and out is.

Psychotic, like, yeah, you could take the subway to fucking yeah.

Berkshire's as far, like all of people's summer homes seem like kind of annoying that I'm sure you know that. My Brooklyn Brighton Beach family, they would send all the kids with the grandparents to their pocono's house for the whole summer and only see.

Them on the weekends. Oh that's great. Isn't that weird?

Okay, so the gas station attendance is like yeah, he seems him, and he tells he tells them. They're like okay, well, like did you know which way he came from?

And he's like nah.

And then they're like, okay, well, if you wanted to do something sketchy and fucked up, where would you do it around here? And he's like there's some abandoned cottages out on the beach and they're like okay, great, and then as they're running away, he goes you won't make it in that car. Here, take my truck and like cat passes the his keys, which is I think so funny.

It is, but someone that he I bet he loves. I bet he's a Blue Lives match.

Blue Line flag for sure, hanging from his gas station. Way, no way, no day, he doesn't. Okay, yeah, so he They ride up to the cottages in this like fun red truck and then they hear somebody immediately yelling for help, and they bust into this abandoned cottage. They find Anica tied to a dirty mattress. Tied up on a dirty mattress, She's so bloody, it's really horrible. She's been in labor all day. She says, please save my baby, and she

It's like so tough to watch.

And then Sabler goes into daddy delivery mode because he obviously has ninety children and has given birth to all of them himself. And Anka tells him that the baby's name is Celia, and she says, Melinda wasn't supposed to tell she came by to see me. So now we're getting some sketchy information. What does Melinda have to do with this? So Stabler delivers the baby, wraps it in newspaper, and it seems like everything's okay. The baby's like crying,

You don't just die later.

It made me sad, I know that, But also, why would you protect Melinda at this point she sucks, like you still want to be with her, like you would.

Still go to jail for her?

She like.

Took the kid, you know what I mean?

I know. So Benson goes Anica told us you didn't know about the baby, but Melinda did. And then they bring Daniel Celia, his daughter, and they're like, if you take the fall for Melinda, you go to jail. And this baby girl is alone with no one in the world to help her, even though there is the aunt, but she's got money problems.

Anyway, I do you think that's how my sister and niece and nephews talk about, like.

Well there's lee but she's so Stabler goes to talk to Melinda and questioning and she's like great, can we go now? And he's like, we got to talk to you a little bit, and she's like, listen, when I fell in love with Daniel, I was scared that he still had feelings for Anica. So I went to go see her, and when I saw she was pregnant, I just knew the baby was his.

What were you going to go.

See her for to see if she still had feelings for him? Like, I don't what was that? What was the plan? And then Stabler is like you did this, and she's like I did it. And then they bring Daniel in and she goes to like embrace him and he's like, don't touch me. And she's like They're like you did this and she's like it wasn't me, and they're like, well, Jessic said a woman hired him, and no one knew Daniel was the father except for you.

You told your mother, and.

She goes, she would have known Marlette from the mailroom at work, because he Daniel had gotten him a job at the mail room at work, and she probably put the brochures in your apartment. And then Melinda goes, I didn't know until this afternoon when we went to get the mail money and I was short on cash, and our business manager told me that Daniel doesn't have a Caman account, only mom does. And that's when she knew that her mom had planned this whole thing. And she

I love her. I didn't know what to do.

And then Daniel sees Rose on the way out and says, how could you do this? And he says like, I know I'm not the best, Like I know I'm not like a pure bread, but I would have loved your daughter, And the mom is like that baby would have ruined everything. You've always been so trusting. Daniel would have taken your money and gone back to her and the baby. I did this for you. That's what the mother says, this.

Whole monologue to her daughter. And then they.

Arrest Rose, who clearly will get off because she's very rich and powerful. And Melinda's like Daniel, and Daniel's like bye, and that's dick will baby.

Yeah.

It's so tipsy turvy wild, And even though I've seen it a bunch, I'm always just like gripped by the mystery. Yeah, I never I'm always like, wait, which one of them did?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, and they did.

I think they fucked up on casting though, because Daniel does look like a rich guy.

Yeah, he looks like.

A Yale baby.

And they maybe should have given him somebody with like more like a New York accent or something, you know, somebody that seemed a little bit more like poor, yeah, or like just yeah, yeah.

He looks like a hot rich He looks like James Marsfield. Man, what's the guy you know, twenty seven dresses James Marsden.

Yes, that's the vibe I get from this guy, like a ha, you know, or that little swoop in his hair.

I think, yeah, this also tragedy is I think of trade. Trade is similar to this for me where it's like the coffee coffee one. The rich like it's similar where it's like intertwining rich families girlfriends like parent's doing crimes for Yeah. So those two are cannon to me, and let's get going.

Yeah, we'll be right back after we tell you about some delightful products.

Okay, so this is famous huge you've you know, if you're not fourteen, you know you were alive, you know this.

It was a big deal.

We're doing the Lacy and Scott Peterson case and it's not that connected to this episode, and I was like getting nervous, and then Kara reminded me this episode came out six months after.

So yeah, six or nine were connecting after. Yeah, Like, you're definitely when you're doing a pregnant woman missing with a high risk pregnancy, when the hugest case of the decade is happening, they're connected.

Yeah. I Also I do have to warn you guys, this is a big one. If you're commuting to work, this might take you three weeks, So get a bubble up. I will keep you uh entertained to and from work. I also have to give a kind of heads up that I don't think Scott Peterson should have been guilty.

I know you might come for me.

I am dying to hear how you get to this, So let's let's start.

Yeah, and it's it's the casey anthony of it all. I'm not saying he did not do it. I am saying if you cannot tell me how, when and where the murder took place, you cannot sentence someone to death.

I'm sorry. That is fun.

Okay, Well, let's let's take us through it because I don't know, honestly, I don't know all the details of this. Like I remember this story generally and like some of the salacious, Like.

Yeah, I was young, I was in high school. I wasn't paying attention. So this was exciting. And then a part of me is nervous because I did supplement with a lot of sources. But the docuseries I did mostly watch they think Scott's it's very Scott Peterson heavy.

So maybe I got into the propaganda.

But I will take you through this case and you you know, we'll see what happens. If I'm gonna be a prior not so. In two thousand and four, Scott Peterson was convicted of murdering his wife Lacy and their unborn child. She went missing on Christmas Eve, so pretty exciting,

And that's how most cities are.

You're like millionaires row and then projects are blocks away from each other, as you know in Chicago at least. And it was a sensation. This is one of the most famous crimes in history, not even yeah twenty four to seven. News is entertainment and there's a formula. So you want to find a defendant who is enviable, you know, wealthy, powerful, also someone that depends on their popularity for their livelihood.

Is the victim attractive? That was them?

We want attractive people, rich people people. We want people being brought down, you know, as a culture, not us personally. I prefer to be around hot people. Okay, so I want hot people to live. Yeah, so Scott and Lacy were very hot. Also, what added to this kind of case in the pandemonium is there was another woman, and so you want every day because you're angry and you have all these emotions and you want to know what happened. So that's why it kind of like gripped the nation.

But yeah, TV was different back then. Okay.

Then he said that she mopped the kitchen floor and was cleaning, and it's like, why is your eight and a half month pregnant wife doing that?

Why are you not mopping?

I'm sorry, like you're trying to give us an alibi or like, you know, describe stuff. But in my head, I'm like, I'll fucking kill you. How dare she be mopping? So she went to take the dog for a walk and he decided to go phishing. To me, it's Christmas Eve, why are you going phishing?

A lot?

Like I just assume for Americans at least there's more kind of vibe, like you do more on Christmas. Yeah, yeah, so that is strange. So nine twenty to forty someone did see him load umbrellas into the car and go to his warehouse.

At ten thirty to.

Ten fifty six, he was at his computer at the warehouse doing stuff and that was easily tractable. Then he went to Berkeley to go fishing. And then so that's in Berkeley fishing.

Scott.

What was happening here with Lacey is at ten eighteen am, the neighbor saw the dog walking around outside the home with a leash and the collar, but no Lacey. So the dog, this Golden Retriever, very cute, had this leash, and so the neighbor took the dog and put the dog in the backyard. And then there's five sightings and witnesses remembering seeing a pregnant woman with a Golden retriever, and all of them had like a moment of why she caught their attention, Like she tripped one time.

Someone was like, oh, she's so pregnant. Oh the oh that looks like our dog. That dog. You know, everyone had like a little moment.

But as we know from SVU two, like witness accounts are not to be trusted.

Because humanity is were fools.

So this is going to become a huge part of the case, like who actually saw the dog? Are these sightings confirmed or not? So we we have all of these sightings of her. The sixth witness was a woman and she was having a smoke before her shift at the hospital. And I love medical workers smoking cigarettes and eating fast food.

It's one of my favorite.

Things because it just reminds us of like, of course, we all know the right things to do in life, but it is hard to complete these tasks and take care of ourselves, even when you're a fucking doctor.

And I just like that.

And she saw Lacy at the park by this creek, and she then saw two men yell at her to shut that dog up. So I guess this was a very badly behaved golden retriever. And again, we do not know if any of these witnesses are trustworthy. This is just the base account of what happened. Detective John, one of the detectives, like, I don't believe any of these people, and I believe that she was already dead by then. So there's like a couple of camps. There's a camp

By this guy thinks that six people seeing a pregnant woman walking a dog were making it up. That's a lot of people.

It is. It totally is.

And you are like, you are memorable when you're eight and a half months pregnant. Your body looks like a body shouldn't look.

Yeah, and well, and that's another thing where you're when I you know, I did give Kara heads up, I go, I think I'm on Scott Peterson's side.

How do you think this will go? The thing with.

This case, and we talk about this all the time in all other cases, is police fuck up all the time, so it wouldn't be that shocking and all of these witnesses, I mean, I'm getting ahead of myself, but it is a great question, Kara. The police never talk to these people again, all of these witnesses said that the police never contacted them for an interview. Ever, like there were tip lines, the cops did not listen because the cops had in mind what happened and they do lie to the press.

They do a lot of fucked up shit.

And that's the thing, Like, whether it's a likable or unlikable person, whether someone's guilty or not, we can all agree, the cops will find a way to fuck a case up, you know what I mean.

So that's the thing. They didn't even talk to any of these people. Wow, but maybe.

They didn't follow up with them because they were like, yeah, you were all full of shit. We know the neighbor put the dog away at ten eighteen, so there's no way you could have seen it. And she actually physically touched the dog and put it in the yard, and she knew the time because she had an appointment that

So it's like there is definitely a thing two of people wanting to be part of something so huge like that, yes for sure, yes, Like oh did you know I'm part of the Lacy Peterson case, Like, yeah, I saw her I'm one of the last people to see her alive, you know, like people love that shit.

Yeah, I mean, I can't say that I wouldn't be desperate, but I wouldn't. I don't think I would make something. I would hope I would not make to fuss out.

So back to Scott.

At twelve fifty four pm, he as a receipt from when he parked his truck at the marina and he was there till two pm. He did not catch anything and called Lacy as he left there to go home at two fifteen, and he left a very sweet voicemail for her. But then he goes, hey, and I forgot to pick up the basket for Papa, so can you go pick up the basket? And it's like pick up the basket. She's pregnant. I was like, she's mopping, she's

I just what.

I'm just like having diarya thinking about what's happening. So he called Sharon, that is Lacey's mother at five seventeen pm.

Again, wouldn't you be doing Christmas?

He fills the mom in like, hey, her car's here, but she's not, so I'm assuming she's with you guys, did you pick her up?

And they're like, she's not here.

So at five forty seven PM, Lacey's stepfather calls nine one one.

And it's two thousand and four. Do they have cell phones? I don't know. I know I had a Nokia.

I definitely played snake in high school and I graduated in five, so like I I'm yeah, I had a Nokia.

I had a phone. I had a phone and no four for sure.

So but yeah, wait was a so no, he was just charged in O four. This happened in OH one and two thousand and four he was convicted.

Oh I'm so sorry she went missing in O one.

Yeah yeah sorry, Oh okay, I didn't have a phone yet.

Yeah, okay, good. I love that.

It's how you have a phone is how this case is.

I got one. I actually may have gotten one like that Christmas for my first one, and I left it in my room and never took it out.

It was like weird because.

I'm also thinking like people and in nine to eleven were leaving voicemails to their loved ones.

And the plane.

Oh yeah that's true, so it might have been around. But you know, Carrie Bradshaw didn't have one for to like see.

Right, so like not everybody had one.

Yeah, it wasn't like everyone has a cell phone thing yet.

Yeah, So but I'm sorry, that I uptop said two thousand and four convicted. This is all place in two thousand and one and obviously takes years for the trials, so thank you for catching that.

Yes, so al Borrokini.

Is the detective, and everyone in this documentary series is like, oh, he's a bulldog, he's the best, he's beloved. This Broccini guy is a beloved detective. So the cops meet at the park and he's like, let's go to the house. We got to go to the house and they started going through all the stuff and there's no evidence of a forced entry or bloodshed or a struggle. She had plans for that afternoon and then she was just gone.

Like, no one would be working on.

Christmas, this is bullshit, and it's like, nah, people are working on Christmas. So Alborkini then called another detective of the Medesto, ped John Bueler, and he was just wrapping up a double homicide on Christmas Day, so he was like, yeah, I'll work on this with you, Marie here and ignoring my family and again like I do want to fuck a detective.

And it's so hard that they are cops. It's like.

So attractive to solve a murder with evidence, and then it's like, uh, maybe a private okaybably no, private eyes didn't pass the police test, So I don't I have stand.

But aren't there former cops that like leave the force and do private work?

Yeah, maybe that's your goal.

Like they hated their I don't you I CA don't, but I wouldn't trust a PI.

That's the thing. They're like lying too much. It's all a little tough for me.

So so Scott's there to do this interview, and that's the first time John has seen Scott, and he was expecting Scott to be like, are you working on this?

What's this about? How about this? Are you finding my wife?

But his behavior was very different from other people that he's dealt with that have just like have a missing loved one. He wasn't that interested in what they were doing or in the case, and their goal was to clear him right away. Like it, let's clear him, so then we can get to work on other shit. Like they're not sitting around, you know, like they're like, okay, let's like let's get through this.

Let's go find her. So it's Christmas even.

He agreed to take the polygraph, but then he talked to his dad and the dad is like, don't take a polygraph.

Anything you do, don't do it.

So he said no, and to them that's like the cops are like annoyed because to that, but I.

See why not to take it because they're unreliable of course, and so that's what the dad said to him.

The dad was like, listen, if they if there's anything weird, they could get like it's not worth it, like I'm gonna call a lawyer. We'll get a lawyer, like don't do this. But to the cops, it was like, why don't you just do the things we're asking you to do so we can move on if you're innocent, Like what is the issue. So him refusing the polly made

Like it? But they didn't like they didn't like his vibe.

So, like I said, December twenty sixth, not a lot of news going on, and it became kind of like ohja, where everyone wanted to watch it, and every single channel and every every paper, every everyone wanted this.

Hey, you're like at home, it's Christmas. There's like no new shows are on. You're bored with your fucking family. You're probably just like, what's going on with this case, and like, you know.

Yeah, and so because of the frenzy, he was assigned like a protector guy. So he was assigned Ed Steele, who was a former sergeant of the Medesto ped and at the time, he was assigned to be Scott's personal liaison for him and the family to the police to kind of like help out, and he spent a lot of time with Scott. First perception that Ed had of

That was like leaking, he said, of the sauces.

And he was just like, oh, hey, look at this rib and he was just like talking about the ribs, and it rubbed ed the wrong way where it's like, what what, how are you eating ribs? Chatting about ribs your wife?

Well, it kind of reminds it reminds me of Gone Girl, you know, of course. Yeah, like when they're in like the pop up like volunteer center and then that woman takes a selfie with him and it's like that's not even what he meant to be doing, but anything you do looks like you're fucking enjoying yourself or like fucking off when your wife is missing.

Yeah. Yeah.

A lot of this stuff about him and how he acts though, it's like he does so much shady shit, it's pretty wild. But I am like, maybe he has autisa, Like maybe he has panic attacks in front of cameras, Like, h you don't actually know. I mean, he's probably killed Lacey, but like, yeah, you know, I under but that's the whole thing where it's like, even if cameras stressed you out, you would do anything to find your wife. Yeah, you would do anything. And they didn't like that. They didn't

In the city.

But again it was all about the morning walks and everything. But the cops were not using the community tips. And that's according to Scott's sister in law and this documentary. So like, I don't know, you know, we can't trust his family.

It's tough.

So the twenty sixth round five pm, they have a warrant to search his house. Now, Detective John says the search warrant isn't even about finding physical evidence. It's about they get info from the behavior of the accused. They were there to see how he would act if someone wanted to search the house. Scott did not give permission to do the house. That's a red flag to them.

Yeah.

He also hired a lawyer. Your wife went missing a few days ago, Why do you need a lawyer? Yeah, So that was shady to them. December twenty seventh, it's three days missing. It is now a full blown media frenzy. News broke that thing like that, things were taken out of the house with the search warrant and it was just like bam, everything was wild now. Ted Rowland is kind of a popular figure here. He was a local reporter who was like the first person on the scene

So that was actually the.

First time the family felt hope and like maybe there's an answer and like, let's look into this burglary. Within a day of arresting the guys that were involved in the burglary.

They realized.

They concluded that it was not connected to Lacy and that the burglary is solved in it. Whatever, and it actually happened on the twenty sixth, So the police made statements and there's articles that the burglary actually happened on the twenty sixth, not the twenty fourth, But local news reporter Ted Rowland goes absolutely not. I was on the

I'm looking for anyone, and the streets were empty.

So the police lied about the date of the burglary to get people off their back and legit to the press said it happened on the twenty sixth, but Ted can confirm that's absolutely not true. Wow, and the witness saw the van on the twenty fourth, So it's like, what's going on. December thirty first, a thousand people met up for a candlelight vigil and they were they hated him because he did not speak. He stood outside the camera area and people didn't like it.

Yeah, she wrote, gone girl, based on this, I think actually right one hundred yeah yeah oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, because I'm like, this is like fucking straight from it.

Too, like no, no, gone oh yeah yeah, but Gone Girl for shirt, it's like the god like ben Affleck who has no effect or whatever. Obviously there's more twists to Gone Girl, but very Gone Girl. I thought about Gon Girl, and this vigil is going to become important soon, so keep that in your feather cap or whatever. But also, and you know we know this from SVU guilty people like to come to the vigils, so yes, you know

Yeah, like why.

Are you hiding at the vigil of your dead wife? Like what are missing wife? January second, nine days missing. There's a press conference and they show people the truck and the boat to see if there are any tips of anyone who saw these things. But also these are small town detectives, so I don't think they're media trained. And suddenly, you know, the camera's people press, everyone's asking these small town cops questions, and they released their biases

Yeah.

They also announced where he had gone fishing on the news, which I think is bad to announce the alibi. How are you announcing someone's alibi publicly when a body hasn't been found yet. If it is someone else, they know where to dump the body.

Now, yeah, that's true.

You can't announce the alibi publicly. And then he also said he's cooperated to an extent, and Nancy Grace jump jumped on it, and that blew it up even more. Nancy Grace was really bothered by him. She hated him so much and she was gonna dig. Now. Amber Fry surfaces and she is Scott's girlfriends kind of other woman. Okay, she's a massage six Chris mistress. Yes, she's a massage therapist who just finished massage school in two thousand and two, and she had an eighteen month old baby and she

But it's like you just met in November.

That seems like it's moving very very fast, okay, but she likes the way that, you know, it was moving.

But she felt uneasy about something, and something was odd.

Because he had to talk to her, he said, and he admitted to lying to her that he was married but lost his wife and it would be the first holidays without her and it's going to be really hard for him. But he didn't get into details, and she didn't push any of the info.

So this is this is a year after no, No, No, No, that's just Amber resurfaces into like during the investigation. Yes, okay, so she reservices later, but she's she but.

It's it's complicated because basically what happens is once she puts it together, she tells the police and then for months records all of their conversations, and then the news got the photos and we're gonna leak them. So then in January, I think it's twenty fourth, I'll get to it, they held a press conference with Amber. They met November two thousand and two, and he's telling her this is gonna be my first holiday without my wife. So all

But in all turn, he just proved that he has something to hide.

Amber agrees to help the police department and get him, so they bought a device that attached her phone and they tape recorded all the conversations between her and Scott, and then Scott calls right away, like they set it up in Scott's calling, So she answered she's nervous and on the call.

Remember this is December thirtieth.

He goes, hey, babe, I'm going to Paris for New Year's tomorrow, and she has sacked, excited that she was gonna see him. She has to sack like nothing's going on. So remember that vigil on New Year's. He calls Amber from the vigil and goes, hey, babe, I'm in Paris. I'm here with my friends. We're by the Eiffel Tower. We're gonna meet my friend Pascal from Spain.

At the bar.

They are recording a conversation from his missing wife's vigil as he's lying to his girlfriend, talking to her, going I'm in Paris, honey.

There's fireworks.

Wow. So twisted and he's a great liar. January fourth, two thousand and three, there's a recorded message from him saying I miss you. They talk dozens of times after Lacy went missing, and Amber was trying to bait Scott into a confession. Unfortunately, he never did or fortunately, like he's always like I loved Lacy, I love Lacy, I would never goble, like he denied everything on these conversations, but his actions were still weird, like it's just.

It's fucked up.

January fifth, twenty three, twelve days missing, divers searched the water at the marina. They did twenty seven searches. They could not find a body. January fourteenth, they get word that the media had gotten a hold of photos from Amber and Scott together, but they hadn't told any of the family or like Lacy's family, so they're like, fuck, we have to get you know, a move on. So they told Lacey's mom, and Lacey's mom first reaction goes,

But I don't know. Everyone was like fuck you, Ted.

So January twenty fifth, Scott calls Amber and is like, so what you called them up and asked them to do a press conference?

What the fuck?

And she's like, no, CBS was hounding me and my businesses and showing up and that I had to get them to get away from me. He then said he was proud of her and impressed by her character and she was brave. He said he threw up when he listened to the press conference though, So I don't really get any of this.

He's so dumb.

I mean, that's the thing, Like, he is really dumb, and that's what's hard for me to understand how he was able to get away with this crime with absolutely no physical evidence if he's this dumb, right, So then Scott goes, you know what, I'm gonna go talk to the press too, and his lawyer's like, please don't talk to the press, Please don't talk to the press.

He goes, I'm talking to the press.

So he called Gloria Gomez and she was one of the local reporters who became very famous during this case and was very involved there every day, and she talks a lot about like all these national medias were coming, but what they didn't have was connections and relationships with the police departments. She's been on the beat, so she was getting tips from the police, like she knew everything. She was involved with everyone, and so Gloria is like a big kind of person in this case.

So he did an interview with her.

He sat down with Diane Sawyer and did two other local interviews and with Ted Roland and she's going inside the house whatever.

His eyes were shifty.

There's nothing he could have done that would have been okay, Like everyone hated him.

These interviews backfired, yeah, and.

They were saying, Diane Sawyer is like one of the best like journalist interviewers for decades, like a top person in her career, and it's like, you think you can go toe to toe with Diane Sawyer, like bro oh. And then he told Diane Sawyer that he had told Lacey about his affair and she was okay with it. And everyone's like, your eight month pregnant wife was okay with your affair. We don't believe you, But there's nothing you could have said or done that would have changed everything.

What I mean.

Like, but anyways, but now they can't find Scott. So the body is found, and now Scott's missing, so it's like, clearly you're fucking guilty. So he's in San Diego Low apparently his family is there, and he was just like trying to like get away from the attention, and then he was being followed by a car that he thought he was media, so he was like trying to escape this media car, but it was actually law enforcement and

Not good.

His hair was dyed blonde with a beard, not good. He had around ten to fifteen grand with him, camping gear, his brother's ID, and four cell phones.

So I can't wait to get to how you think this guy didn't do it. I didn't say he didn't do it.

Oh no, No, you didn't say that he didn't.

I didn't say that.

I believe if you cannot prove when, how, and where, you cannot charge someone guilty. Okay, I think Casey Anthony killed her baby.

I have for Shuren. Casey Anthony murdered her baby.

She was found innocent because you can't how do you sentence someone?

And if you can't prove it, well, I think.

You also incentivize people to get rid of bodies and evidence so that they cannot get there's enough circumstantial. But he's an idiot, like, yeah, but he told his fucking mistress that I'll be alone on Christmas without my wife. I mean, this shit's nuts again. If that wasn't a dumb ass, if that was a dumb ass line to his mistress.

It's really fucking coincidental. But someone went and killed his mistress.

But they also did twenty seven searches for that body in that body of water and did not d that's the same.

So that's where his boat is. San Francisco Bay. Yeah wow, Yeah, so maybe it was dumped later. You say it doesn't matter. He could be a guilty as fuck.

I'm just saying, like, the reason we have courtrooms is like, yeah, no, you're right, because one of those system will get to everything.

Obviously, this is a giant case. I'm trying to make it.

But like one of the jurors after the trial went on Larry King, and Larry King was like, so what happened? And the jur goes, can you clarify that question? And Larry goes, no, you're on the jury. You just sentenced a man to death. Tell me what happened. And the juror couldn't. And I'm sorry, Like that's just not you know what I mean, Like, yeah, I don't think he did not do it. I'm just saying the investigation was

There were media leaks.

From cop friends to the reporters and leaking stories. So what the cops wanted to get out is what got out. His boat was tiny, like to conceal one hundred and fifty pound body in his tiny boat is wild and it would capsize like they tried to. Like also in the midd like Dexter goes out at night for a reason. Okay, Like you're telling me this motherfucker on his tiny boat had a full on body and dumped it in the middle of the day in the bay. Like it just

Gonna you know.

So he got the best attorney in the game. Matthew Dalton was the investigating defense attorney, and with the discovery law, the police had to turn over everything they had regarding the case, thirty thousand pages of documents, and he went through every single one. He spent over one hundred hours with the jail in jail with him, he got to

A fair trial.

The jury was finally chosen after talking to hundreds and hundreds of people, but they weren't able to sequester the jury because it would have been too expensive because the case was going to be so long, and they actually like, this trial was such a zoo. They had a lottery for people to get in to watch the trial, Like people were lining up around like to get a fucking

But it's like, lol, okay.

They were also not allowed to read newspapers or watch the news. But again, even if you tried, how are you avoiding the number one big thing in the case, I mean in the country. And then something that happened that I've never thought about in this A and E documentary was about how everyone walks in through one door. Every single person goes through security. So jurors, family members, everyone, and they were given permission the jury to say good morning and hello.

But that was it.

But I just never thought about that, like duh, they're all intermingling. But then one juror got dismissed because he said something to the brother of Lacy on the fourth week of the trial. All he said, but the camera a camera was nearby, was oh, I'm ruining the shot. I guess you won't be on the news today, And that's what got him dismissed.

Huh, I don't know.

He also was talking about the witnesses to other jurors and they're not allowed to discuss the trial at all, and he kept trying to talk about the case, and so another juror told on him and got him housted. Okay, so this is where shit becomes fucked. So the judge also during the selection ask people if you are against the death penalty and if they and if they were,

The judge even made an.

Announcement like, if there's circumstantial evidence that gives two possible outcomes, you must accept the one of innocence.

You have to be proven guilty.

He did say that, but he denied any mistrial even though the jurors were like blabbing and causing all this problem. And then one of the jurors started doing news and interviews and just blabbing to anyone that would let like listen to him. So Justin Faulkner, this juror who kept blab to all the media outlets, that's how everyone found out that the prosecution was like fucking up.

The prosecution was doing a really bad job.

And I talked to I mean, Casey Anthony was our pilot, so like it's not released and we're waiting till we get Hillary Duff one day.

But a big thing with that is.

And I talked about this with sports, where it's like if you think you have it in the bag, you're not gonna try as hard because you're cocky. So you're coming in so cocky that the defense is working so hard you can't pull that shit. And that's what happened with Casey Anthony, and it happened here too. The prosecution was like, oh, we got him, and they really really fucked up the case. They were getting like squashed in court.

I cannot believe Martha's morangue was such a huge part of the opening.

Yes, and to me, it's like, wait, you put that big of a mistake in your opening statements, prosecution, you didn't even watch the episode.

That huge Yeah, that's bad.

And the prosecution had all of these witnesses and expert people, and the defense just mopped the floor with all of them and pokesholes through every single one of the witnesses, like to the point like embarrassed the shit out of

The prosecution.

They were prosecutions a Floppiana.

I don't know what to tell you.

And it is tough, Like I know, the doc I watched is bias, like it's his family trying to free him, you know. But I but like the people that they interviewed throughout the dock, Like they asked one of the reporters Gloria, They're like, do you think he did it?

And she goes, is that a real question?

And then starts laughing, and she goes that jury should be sleeping well at night. So they did put in stuff where I don't know, it's just tough. I'm just like embarrassed, and I would love people to take me off this path, you know what I mean, Like I would like to not be on Scott.

Petersons side here. Yeah.

And then our beloved detective on this on the stand, Al BROKINI he was caught in a lie. He said that Lacy had never been to the warehouse and didn't know he had a boat. But then there was a witness who said that she had seen Lacy there the night before, and like.

Interesting, she was at the warehouse the night before she died or the night before she was disappeared.

Yeah, but that seems weird too.

And then it was written and then al redacted it from the report, so that means he's concealing evidence by dropping a paragraph.

And so Mark ripped into al and.

People said that it was wild, like everyone that was there because you know what would happen is so everyone would do the lottery. All the press, everyone was fighting to watch this trial, and then during little breaks, the press would run out and do quick interviews and like all these legal like panel people were living it up, and so it was like people just like would run out and be like al Brokeini got.

Smashed in core, you know.

So yeah, it was just like a sporting event. So I don't know, I guess he lied. He got caught in Alive. Back to the case after al Brokeini was humiliated. No, I don't know, but it was it would be weird that she was there the night before, yes, doing word.

At his warehouse. What's his warehouse for anyway?

Well, he was a fertilizer salesman, So I think it's like his computer, he held his boat. It was like a work kind of thing. There was some concrete there, like basically they said that she put there. Yeah, there was loose concrete also, but it was circumstantial, like you, I don't know whatever. Yeah, I just like saying circumstantial.

And that's according to the jurors.

And then one of the day one reporters, Ted, he said that he did have a reaction, it was just not reported. And it's like, Ted, I don't shut up. Dead's on Scott's side. His head is on Scott's side. I gotta find Ted. But then the big twist of the trial and the switch from the prosecution from like the defense winning to the prosecution came when Amber Fry's recordings came out in the trial.

And once you hear them.

It changed the dynamic because even the defense knew that they were screwed. His complete not caring about his wife and just flirting with Amber was chilling to listen to to like straight up you're at the like no emotion at all. So now one of the defense attorneys is like, you know, it was played out like this huge affair, but they actually only saw each other four times, so I don't know, it was just a few weeks. It was just a few week affair. But I don't know.

He was obviously really into her or into the idea of leaving his family.

Yeah, yeah, I just don't think. I don't know.

I don't but I wonder if he ever felt anything ever, or if he is associated Like I wonder if he ever showed emotion or did anything of that sort. And Amber is a character witness, one legal analyst said, and had any nothing to actually do with the case, but it put his character into play. So oh, and then this is really fun with Amber. So Amber, you know, all this is happening, and she is in the limelay and her dad calls her and was like, hey, I just saw this lawyer on TV and I think you

She could have just sold that shit.

So you know, that was like bit Gloria's big push, like that she did the right thing, and then she was treated so poorly by the media, and the media was like, she's uglier than Lacey, She's dumber than Lacey. Fuck this slut it's and it was like, I don't know.

It's actually doing the right thing. She's like trying to find out who did this.

Yeah, and then racy photos came out of her and like sexy laundry and stuff, and people.

Didn't like that.

So August tenth, two thousand and four, it was Amber's turn to take the stand, and it was two years had passed from the first time that she'd even seen Scott face to face, and.

She knocked it out of the park.

She was working for the cops and did keep prodding and questioning him and bringing up Lacey and did you love her and did you do it? He never incriminated it himself, and he always just brought up finding her, like we need to find her. That was his big thing where it was like, why are you focused on me? Go find her? You're wasting time and I'm scared that this is going to stop the investigation to find her.

But also then why didn't you let them.

Just search your house and take the polygraph and like do all of these things that would help the investigation.

It sounds like he had like literally like a little motor boat, like not like a.

Like yeah, like a pontoon boat like this was not like a nice ass below deck style.

No, I mean I didn't think it was a yacht.

But it doesn't even sound like it's like a real like but it sounds like it's a motor boat where you go sit and like drink a beer and stick your little rod in the water and see what happens.

Yeah, And it was like metal, yeah yeah, the metal, yeah.

Like the kind of that's the kind of boat that I think takes people from the dock to their big boat.

It's like the dinghy basically, yes, but that was his big thing. Oh and then this was this was wild.

So the prosecution said that this dog tracked Lacey's sent all the way to the marina. And but then we find out this dog failed two tests to become certified.

This was.

It's a community college police dog.

Oh no.

So and then also they're just like if she was already dead and in the boat and bags and never on the like, how would the scent stay on this marina?

You know what I mean. It was just kind of wild.

But people loved the dog, and they interviewed jurors after, and the jurors were on the dog side, Like a lot of jurors decided their decision because of this dog.

But the dog was a failure.

And I'm not saying the people that went to community college are a failure. Please don't come for me. I think it's funny that this dog like is basically like the girl who's the woman from fucking o C who's husband failed the bar seven times.

That's this dog like.

Emily and Emily, Emily and no Emily and oh god, he's horrible.

What's his name? Shane, Shane.

This dog is Shane, a different dog with a different handler. Did not scent Lacy on this dog, okay, But the jurors were hardcore on this dog. It was like one of the women being interviewed in this dog was just like they're like what what what made you choose him? And she, you know, say guilty and she was like the dog, absolutely the dog.

And we'll get to this jury.

This juror, she had a nickname called like they called her Strawberry Shortcake, and she was a backup jury.

I mean, the jury stuff is really wild.

I'm trying to get through this evidence so we can fucking get in it, okay. And the big thing was like the body was found where he said he was gonna be so like if the body was found anywhere else he could have been easily like cleared of the crimes.

It's just so many coincidences.

If it's not him, it's a lot of fucking coincidences, you know.

Oh, absolutely, absolutely so. Then closing arguments happened in November. I mean, what a fucking trial. The prosecution closing got the jury to cry. And basically, you know, some people say they subbed emotion for hardcore evidence, but they didn't have hardcore evidence.

So this is what you do.

The defense kind of bombed bad day to have a bad day, but the defense did not nail it and really just had terrible closing arguments. And I've said this is where I'm coming from, not that he didn't do it, but if he's dumb enough to dump the body where he said he was going to be, he was dumb enough to leave evidence somewhere, a hair, blood lumin like something should.

Have caught something right like that. If you're that dumb, I don't know.

But like let me, let me let me just say, like he he like he chokes her. Let's say maybe he doesn't hit her, maybe he chokes her to death. Like her hair being anywhere is not a red flag he's her white like he's her his wife. So it's like this is like this if he chokes her desk so that there's no blood and we don't know because her fucking head was missing, So I don't even know if they could determine cause of death. It's just like there is I'm not saying he's not not dumb.

I think he is dumb, but.

I think it's possible he lucked intill not leaving any evidence, lucked.

Into for sure.

It's just like because even the police that testified where their theory was that she he killed her the twenty third, but it's like she was seen the twenty four. You know, there just wasn't concrete evidence like unfortunately, like I but yeah, and.

It is wild. It is wild to think what you said, like if she was seen the morning of Christmas Eve, and like them, by the evening of Christmas Eve, the police are being called when did he dump her? Like if he dumped her at eleven am when they found the dog wandering around, that's the middle of the fucking day. So yeah, how are you getting rid of a body in the middle of the day.

Yeah, like you don't have a wood chipper. I don't. It just doesn't make sense.

And you're right, he could have just choked her out, but then what it's heavy. He does have a truck, he could have put the body on the truck.

But then, like, I just think getting rid of her in the middle of the day on this bay would have been difficult with nobody seeing you.

But I don't know the area. No, I agree with it.

And also like who else is fishing on Christmas? Yeah, I don't think Jews really fish. If you're a Jew that goes fishing, let me know.

I don't know how to Orthodox Jews, like what's that guy doing?

But I have to be honest with myself the fact that, like I was pissed Casey Anthony wasn't found guilty, you know, like I understand the thing of like I don't I know you fucking killed that baby. I don't care if the evidence doesn't show it. So it is like I don't know why I feel kind of like I don't know. I just I just don't want to suddenly be like the cops did a great investigation.

It's like, we know cops fuck up investigations.

Well, and are you more mad that he was found guilty or found that or that he was sentenced to death, because I think we're also both just anti death penalty.

I think it's wild to sentence someone to death without a creedo, I do.

I think it's like really fucked up. Yeah, well now he's not getting death anywhere.

Yeah, and it's it could have been because of this doc. Honestly, it's around the same time, so whatever, let's get So jury started deliberating and they took an initial vote and it was ten to two. Then day five of deliberating, a jur confessed to doing their own research and was taken off the case and was replaced by.

An alternate jur Are you an idiot?

And so this alternate juror was watching the whole time, and from the beginning she cried the whole case like she was so emotional, so into it, and they called her Strawberry Shortcake, and I am obsessed with her. But she is the reason he's not getting sentenced to death because she did such fucked up shit.

So they had to start.

Over deliberating, and things got so wild, and they hated the foreman and needed to replace the foreman. And so there's gossip that a jur threatened him and there were just fights and everyone thought he was guilty, but the foreman was just focused on the facts. So they dismissed the foreman. What yeah, how is that possible? You're supposed to that's a hung jury. If the foreman won't change, then that's a hung jury.

They didn't want to mistrial.

I have no idea, but like the guy that they say threatened him and like physically assaulted him denies it. But there were just scuffles and the foreman was let go. They let go, So the guy that wanted to like go through the evidence was let go and the guy who threatened him got to stay. Like if why don't you get rid of both of them? Yeah, like, why aren't you getting rid of the one that threatened And they don't have Maybe they.

Only have so many alternates that were there for the trial. I don't know.

And you're right, if he stuck around, it would have been a hung jury. So then listen to this. November eleventh, two thousand and four, another new replacement came in and the next day.

They had their verdict.

That's right, So the final vote was twelve zero. The verdict was in Friday morning and they only met up on Thursday afternoon with the new juror, so in nine hours and what so, like the defense attorney actually like when there was a new jur he goes, oh, I can go back to la for the weekend, and even Scott's sister was like, okay, cool, I'll go back to San Diego and come back next week.

And then they all got called in the next day. Crazy.

So then one of the jurors they come in to read the verdict and Gloria Gomez, the reporter, said that she saw one of the jurors wink at Lacey's mother before.

The verdict was read.

Oh no, but when the verdict was read inside they said they you can hear the cheering outside like people were they were partying. It was people were very, very excited for this Scot talk in this dock. No, oh, they're so in twenty seventeen. I mean, he's in San Quentin and so there's voice conversations, so there's just like voiceover and close captioning of what he said. But he's in jail, no video.

Okay.

I was just wondering if he was still like so unaffected.

Yeah, I think he's just like a cool.

I think he's like Dexter.

Sorry, I have dogs cheering for the verdict outside of my fucking place right now, if you can hear dogs.

But yeah, he's still you know, he's he says he's innocent.

Yeah. So then things got tricky.

So after the jury, this legal expert who was doing a lot of press during the trial outside the court steps, said that a friend came up to her and said, a bunch of the jurors were hanging out at this bar and talking about the case and how they're gonna get Scott Peterson. And since she's an officer of the court, she had to say something, you know, because like you're deciding if someone lives or dies, like you follow the rules.

So she did tell the judge.

The judge brought the bartender in, who pled the fifth, and the juror got to stay on the case and everything stayed normal.

Why would the bartender plead the fifth? What's the bartender gonna get like you please? He could have lied, oh okay.

Or he didn't want to overturn this thing because everyone was so happy.

You know, yeah, you plead the fifth to not incriminate yourself. But I guess he's just trying to like keep the verdict upheld.

But yeah, maybe he was just trying to be cool and like bragging to this woman who said, okay, well, I'm an officer of the court, Like you're putting me in a fucked up place. So during the sentencing hearing, Lacy's mom, Sharon did take the stand. Everybody cried. Press the Watcher's jury, everyone was crying. So then after this trial, though, they made celebrities out of these jurors, and the Strawberry Shortcake legit came out and called him an asshole, said,

Yeah, and it was just okay to like outwardly hate this man like he was yes, oh yeah.

Wow yeah.

And like.

Also, of course this jury's dumb.

You had to find people who had no idea about this case and didn't have it, you know what I mean, Like it is kind of wild. And at the end, so he was sentenced to you know, death by lethal injection. The thing is, to me, this case is not solved. Yeah, to me, Okay, I don't think this case is solved, like if he is guilty, like prove it.

I don't know. Yeah, it was not proven to me.

But if I was on that jury and it was two thousand and three or whatever, I don't know if I would have found him not guilt, I might have charged him.

I think he absolutely did it.

I just think did I agree with you that the police work is bad? I mean, this is very making a murderer. Like I for a while was like he's innocent, and then it was like people were like caro, like any I'm like, all right.

You know, but I don't think they proved it. I didn't watch that one. Oh man, I was obsessed. I watched it twice.

Should I watch it? Is that something I should go back and watch?

I think so.

I mean it was I was like obsessed.

I think now, especially that you've researched cases like this and stuff, you would be so fascinated.

Ooh okay.

So Scott Peterson's appeal was filed in twenty twelve, and the biggest issues for the case, they said, was like the dog evidence. Oh and the hydrologists, like they study I guess water patterns that testified in the courtroom, like he was saying how the bodies would have shifted in all this. He had absolutely no expertise, never did a study and never practiced it, but he was allowed to testify.

Whatever.

There's just like all these issues with the appeal and they wanted to overturn the death penalty. So I don't you know whatever, There's lots of like this, this, this, this, I don't care. But where's doctor Michael Badden And why was he not involved in this case?

I'm telling you, if.

They fucking called him and he showed up, he would have found some motherfucking evidence.

Okay, he would have found.

Some other Yah, doctor Henry Lee, Let's get somebody in here.

So then this is all just like grasping from straws, maybe from the Scott's side or.

Things are real.

There was a mailman that said that the dog barked at him every single day, and on Christmas Eve the dog did not bark.

And he so the dog was not there. Okay.

There's a tip from a correctional officer that the burglars were caught talking about Lacy on tape and I was sent to the police, but the police never got it. And the tape went missing, and that was that, Like the police didn't log it or use it.

The burglars from across the street.

Yeah okay, And they said when they were interrogating the burglars, one of the burglars went, I don't know anything about that pregnant woman, and the cop went, we're not here to talk about that, We're here to talk about the burglary, and then never brought it up again.

But again, I don't know, I don't know.

We don't know what's sitting outside reporting on it, so that could be why the guy brought it up.

But yeah, yeah, but if I was a good dete, I don't know. I don't know what it is to be a good detective or not. I don't do the job. But I feel if someone said that, you'd be like, oh, well, I never even mentioned it.

What do you know about the pregnant woman?

Yeah?

Yeah, yeah, like you wait until they hang themselves. Isn't that the whole point that we learn.

It as.

Well?

So yeah, they say that maybe Lacy confronted the burglars, but then why would they keep their body.

For so long?

There's just like two fucking much jury drama whatever, and the one thing that the defense attorney said he he thinks Scott's innison.

He keeps saying that, but he he.

Said, you can't really judge people act during grief, and he's like, I've been doing this for decades and you really can't decide if someone did it or not by how they grieve and.

No, same like did I have? I talked about this on the podcast how you know how? I was like on Dateline one time because the girl I went to college with her husband disappeared from the crew. Yeah, people were like being so sketchy about her because she was going on all these TV shows talking about her husband disappearing from the cruise, but she wasn't crying, and they were all like, what the fuck, this is sketchy. She had something to do.

With it, And it's like, no, she's just not crying.

Like everybody handles grief in a different way, like they just everybody just wants, especially from a woman. People just want to see a specific reaction of like hysteria, to know that you're like, you have nothing to do with it.

Do you think your friend killed her husband? No, I don't think she had anything to do with it.

So August twenty twenty, the Supreme Court did overturn the death penalty, but they upheld the convictions.

So all those mistakes.

So just like a year and a half ago, okay.

Yeah, yeah, there were The juris election was the biggest flaw. But I don't know how you overturn the death sentence because of the jury selection, but not do a mistrial like another trial, Like if the jury is all the jury errors led to an unfair death conviction, how did it not lead to an unfair trial. I don't really understand that, but I guess there's evidence that obviously they upheld it for some some sort of reason. But the big errors were jury selection. So the big thing, you know,

Yeah what okay, Yeah that seems like a bad move. Yeah.

But December eighth, twenty twenty one, so even more recently, he was resentenced to life in prison.

Oh my god, like a mother dodge. Yeow. So he's there.

And then Sharon did show up to that hearing and she was like, you're a coward. You didn't want to be a dad, But Connor would have been eighteen by now and you would have been free of child support, So like what the fuck? And she's like, Lacy and Connor will always be dead and you will always be the murderer. So that is the final words from Lacy Peterson's mother, Sharon.

So other things I liked.

Scott's dad called Nancy Grace live on the air to tell him how he feels, and it got really heated and he's like, don't interrupt me.

You've had your time to talk.

And so the dad called and just like fought with Nancy Grace on the air. So I didn't hate that move. I was like very into it. Another thing I like is there's a club called SPA Scott Peterson's Appeal, and it's a group of like his family members and just like different women who believe that he is innocent, and they like work on the case. But it is all women, And I wonder if that's like the classic to Bundy,

Satanic panic if you're having a hard time making your defense work, yeah, And that's what Nancy Gray said.

She was just like, okay, if like all of.

These ludicrous ideas wouldn't be necessary if he was actually innocent, Like you guys are grasping at straws. And one of the defense investigators was like, yeah, but anything I looked into was written in the police report. I mean the police did investigate the satanic cults. Like that wasn't just you know what I but Okay, so now there's this is what I'm interested in, and I can't find.

A lot of information.

So that's why, Like I don't know if it's a lie or not, but from nineteen ninety nine to two thousand and two, seven pregnant women disappeared in the area, So like, I don't know if we need a dexter new blood, like people need to show up and find like maybe there is just a serial killer. Like six months prior, there were different pregnant women found dismembered in the bay, and Evelyn Hernandez was one of them. And she's the only one I can get any information about.

And then Lacey got all of this attention.

But her body was in parts in the bay, in the exact same bay.

Oh my gosh.

Yeah, Evelyn Hernandez, she went missing in two thousand and two in May, a week before her due date. And that's same with Lacey. It was like a week or two before the do date. So I just think it's maybe it's coincidence, and maybe Evelyn's husband, like, well, Evelyn had a boyfriend who was married and had a full family and didn't want her to have a baby, so like it could have been this husband, but his alibi

And also where are the other five women? Where's the information on the other five women?

I can't That's why I don't know if this is true or this documentary is just trying to like free Scott Peterson. But like I was, I was searching. I didn't search that long, Like I searched for like a half hour, and like I just couldn't really find anything outside of Evelyn Hernandez.

Huh. So if anyone has inform and I looked up like Bay area, not.

Just oh maybe because these women just went missing, their bodies were never found, right maybe, So so if you if people think that maybe they ran away or whatever, they don't always report on it the same way as like a body I don't.

Know, and then people and then her wallet washed up as well because everyone was like, oh, she just went back to El Salvador and then her wallet washed up. But also the sources I found about Evelyn Hernandez are not credited. There's one CNN article, but the rest are all.

Like weird weird blogs. Yeah, yeah, like it's not real. But it's just like so many articles.

I mean, and we talk about a tale of two killings is like this big thing where it's like, why was this pregnant dismembered?

No one cared about her, and it's one more tale of two victims.

Oh and then one of the uh, there's a bailbonds guy for some reason in this documentary and they're talking to him about Satan and everything, and he just goes, whatever, we're a meth town. When you're on myth, of course you're gonna see Satan, like you think Satan's real when you're on meth.

And I just loved the way he said it. Whatever.

At the end of the day, no matter what the truth is, it is a tragedy. And what everyone can agree on is this is like really horrific and very very sad.

Yeah, Liza, thank you for doing truly so much research on this. I knew maybe ten percent of what you talked about, So this was very informative for me.

And well, yeah, because I think we were all so focused on the story and the vibe of everything that like the facts didn't matter.

It was like, of course he did it, fuck him? Yeah, Well, sometimes it's Oukham's razor.

You know.

I don't know what that means.

It's kind of like the most obvious thing is that is the truth, Like, oh, for sure.

For sure. But they should have brought in doctor Michael Badden. Yeah, why is every case not bringing him in? He should be.

We have to work him until he dies. We're not gonna have him that much longer. All right, I'm excited for our interviews, so stay tuned for that.

All right, guys.

I personally was thrilled when we booked this guest. I have watched her basically my entire life. She was on a show called Life Goes On I watched as a young person er and you've heard her voice in.

An iconic movie called a goofy movie.

But today we are delighted to talk to her about her role as Melinda Granville. Please indulge in our conversation with the one and only Kelly Martin iconic episode.

Oh is it?

Oh yes, I love hearing that.

Oh I've seen this one. I'd be surprised if it's less than a dozen times. Oh yeah, Well, I have to tell you.

I had to rewatch it because I hadn't seen it since it I think it first aired, and I didn't remember if I had done it or not. Like, no, I don't remember anything about it except that I had blonde here. That's all I remember.

Yeah, you didn't do it, but you didn't not do it.

I mean you you didn't do it, but like you sort of at the end, you know, you saw what happened.

When you read the script. Do you remember feeling, oh a twist? Were you shocked a little? I was.

I was a little surprised, and I was also surprised on my second viewing on just a couple of days ago, still that I didn't do it, like really, like I'm in like what I thought was confessing. I'm like, I was really watching it, and I did not remember that it was my mom. I didn't remember until until she like recognized it, and I was like, oh, okay, so yeah, I just went along for the ride.

It is a good episode.

And I have to say this show, I mean, the show in general, it holds up in a way that other shows from that era don't.

Yeah, they were ahead of their time on a lot of issues.

And what was going on in the world.

Ye.

So sadly it's all still relevant and still happening, but it does hold up for us pleasure.

Even the pa scene, because I I mean, I like, actually I watched Life Goes on this show. I did like the pilot recently, and it was from the nineties, and I was like, oh my gosh, it is slow, Like it's slow, like it's a different pace of television. But spe you doesn't they really, It's like still the same pace. It's still very watchable television, even with our twenty twenty two eyes.

Sure. Yeah, And I think the pace is one of the things when people say, like why are people so obsessed with the I'm like, the pace is like always the same, and like you always kind of know what you're gonna get at this mark, usually going to find out who the person is. I mean, some episodes mix it up, but you know you're usually going to find out and then there's a trial, like you know, it's the pace is comforting, soothing.

Yeah, it's like I fall asleep to the rape and murder, but it is soothing and it's.

Timing, it's soothing. Yeah.

No, it's true, and there is some comforting kind of knowing what to expect in the format, but predictable, it's not. So that's that's the hard part of making good television, and they sure do it.

Yeah.

Well, speaking of Life goes On, Kara just gave me the huge news.

Oh yeah, yeah, well, so for our listeners, Life goes On a show that Kelly was on in the in the early nineties and an amazing show that I watched and loved with Chad Lowe, a friend.

Of the pod. He's been on our podcast. Oh good that you guys are.

Rebooting Life goes On and it just found a home at NBC.

Yes, So, I mean the thing that it's funny, like I'm not like so excited because this has been going on since twenty nineteen. Oh, Chad and I initially pitched the idea of revisiting Life goes On back then. So it's just been such a long process, and I am the most jaded person because I've been doing this so long that when I am on set and I am filming the new version of Life goes On.

I will believe that we are doing it.

But yeah, so Life goes On has found a home at NBC and we're super excited. So it's Warner Brothers the original studio and NBC being a new place.

Not ABC where we were before.

But it would be like the same kind of family drama tackling tough issues. And I think the thing that we're so committed to is making sure we satisfy the fans so that you know you have beca and quirky.

And the core will still be there while.

Still making it a new world that makes sense.

And Patti Lapone is signed on.

Patty Lapone is very much committed to doing it. Yes, another slum she is. She's like an everything along, Isn't she Like? You can't shoot anything in New York without including miss Lapon?

Sure?

Well, have you seen Chad Lowe's episode of SVU?

No, I haven't, but I have to tell you. Do you guys know that Neil Bear was the one I think he brought me, he brought.

Chad Well, that was our question. We're like, hello er SVU. That's a Neil Bear connect.

That's what it is. I mean, Neil called me and said, would you like to do an episode of this? And I think it was maybe the first thing I had done after Er maybe because I went back to college after I got killed on ear so it might have been my one of my first jobs back. Oh so yeah, that was Neil. And Neil brought Chad in too. Yeah, and we've had Neil on twice. Obviously a legend and a legend. It brilliant, like so brilliant and fascinating to

You need to recommend you watching Chad Low's. He is a he like puts fingers in his mouth. There's blood, there's incess, there's murder with pins. I mean it's a really twisted episode.

Yeah, you're both in classics from like the first half of the series. Pattie's in a more recent one. But you guys are like in classic ups.

I knew Chad had that in him, by the way, He's always one of those guys that you he's got some stuff underneath that.

Cute face doesn't.

Yeah, yes, have you been friends this whole time?

Since Life Goes On?

So Patty and I have actually been. Patty is truly my second mother, like for real, my second mother and I all of my important life events have included Patty ever since I met her on Life goes On? Because you were how old you were, like you were thirteen thirteen when I started Life goes On. So Pattie like she was at my college graduation, she sang at my wedding. She's just been She's been such an integral part of

Him out.

Because I wanted to perhaps get Life goes On going again, and he was the first one I called, and I was like, had lunch with him and we just kind of reconnected it and now we've been very close ever since, and actually we have a podcast together. Yeah, we saw so like we've he's like my work husband all of a sudden, Now he's I talked to him every day, whereas I hadn't talked to him for many years. So it's it's actually amazing to have him back in my life. I love him so much.

I love that.

I love a full reconnect, a full circle moment. So tell us a little bit about the podcast.

So the podcast is called The Big Break, and it is about that magical moment that changes an actor's career and what we try to get into. We have one guest on per show, and we try to get into that surprising big break moment, not the one that you expect, not the you know, she did a vida and that was her big break, you know, because because an actor wouldn't normally, they wouldn't choose that as their big break.

I also want to know what she sang at your wedding, if that's okay?

Yes, I was like, is this too intrusive? But what did she sing at your wedding?

So she sang two songs during the ceremony, but afterwards at the reception. My girl, Patty likes to drink, which is part of why I love her so much. She drank a fair bit and then she got up to sing one song because my father in law requested that she sing I dreamed a dream from Le Miz Wow, And so she did for him.

But then she proceeded.

To sing eight more songs. He did a full concert. Oh my god, she sing Don't Cry for Me Argentina, she sing meadow Lark. She just did it so much so that I was like, is my wedding day.

We're pulling focus little bit.

They got married in Montana, and so half the people at the wedding had no idea who she was. They just you know, like I remember hearing one of the guests go, wow, she can she could sing like no idea, no idea.

She could maybe make a career out of it. She tried, Wow,

So it's it's it's I love to hear those kind.

Of stories for me.

Do you want to hear mine?

Yes, that was the next question, perfect, Well, I anticipated that. So my my aunt was a nanny for Michael Landon's children.

Wow.

So when I was I'm seven years old, I would often go visit my aunt at Michael Landon's very fancy home because that was a lot of fun and I was friends with his daughter Shauna who was I think like two years older than me. So Shawna and I were playing with our dolls one day and I said with her fancy dolls and I said, you know, I

It was called Father Murphy, but Little House in the Prairie wasn't.

On the air anymore. I didn't understand that. So I was like, no, no, I don't want to do this. And my mom's like, we should try it. So I did that little part and was really good at it, and from there I got an agent and kind of just started working. And being a child actor is a very like at that time, it is a very small world. It was all the same kids. So I just started working like all the time.

Yeah, who were your child actor kit pals? Coming up?

My child actor pals. Jenny Lewis was a school pretty much every audition I went on, and she usually got.

Like every job. And now she opens for Harry Styles. So everybody's road takes them to a different place.

I know. And what's funny is I mean she was truly my nemesis, Like I was friends with her, but I was so jealous of her because she really got every part that like I kind of hated her, like I had this kind of competitive like heat for her. So that when I saw her not that long ago, I guess like maybe five years ago, I hadn't seen her in forever and I ran into her at a

And if your child wanted to do it, are you yeah or nay? On that.

I'm a real on that, just because I feel like I got lucky with how I feel like I escaped with most of my sanity intact. But I do think it's a it's an adult world that I don't think children, my children certainly need to be exposed to. You know, you just hear and see things that kids aren't supposed to see, just because it's like it's an adult work environment. Even if a set tries to make it kid friendly,

But yeah, I just went just to go back to your last story. Think it's so funny that at seven you were like networking on playdates. You were like making making it happen, And I need to get on your dad's show. What can we How can we work this out? Yes?

I was. I was a much better networker back then than I am now, that's for sure.

Oh well, can we get to a little bit of more of your time on SVU because obviously your career is fascinating. We will get back to it, but we want to talk about the SVU episode a little bit more so. How was working with Shirley Knight? I mean, she's a wonderful, a legend astros. It was.

It was great working with Shirley Night, though I think I just had like two scenes with her. I mean, that's the thing about these episodic shows, like you really don't have that much time with the guest stars, and especially like when you're in a family, like everybody's scenes are kind of spread out. So it was great working

Oh, they may have done a take of that or something and then didn't use it.

I think that might have happened.

We definitely did like the chewing up the scenery version of you know that last scene where she's yelling at her mom or she's saying those things to her mom and then her fiance is going to the elevator, like I know, we did very different levels of that scene to see it kind of how big it needed to get. I think it got much bigger in some of our takes. So what I ended up watching was like definitely muted from what I remember, but surely was great. It was

It really is.

I mean, you think about like all the things she's done in her career, so it was it's an honor, you know, to work with her.

For sure. Wow, what a shame. I would have loved to have seen that slab.

By the way, that might have just been in my imagination. I don't know for sure. I cannot tell you I have such if.

You imagine, surely Knight slapping you across the face, though it probably happened, right that happened, maybe a shove or something like that.

Also, we love the wardrobe on this podcast, and that we think they do such a great job.

We love the nighty moment.

I love the night moment too. By the way, it was just a moment. It was the fastest because I remember them really wanting this sexy, beautiful nightgown and I'm sure they spent a very pretty pinny on it, and it was so quick. I wish they had a better like more of you know, more shots of me and that gorgeous nighty with a robe.

I mean, it was like, I was like, who wakes up in the middle of the night to talk to police looking like this? It was very apparently what's her Melinda does? Linda does?

Yeah, what's the key to playing a rich girl?

Oh goodness?

You know, I wish I knew I actually I found myself when I was watching it back. I was like, I felt like I was very one note. I would have definitely played that part a little differently now. I felt like the first moment you meet Melinda, when she comes in with the flowers with her mom, she's already upset, which I was like, I was watching it, going, why am I already playing? Like what happens later? Like, I

Like oh the police are here, like no big deal.

I feel like a rich girl would have been a little bit more like.

Everything's fucking go wrong.

Yeah, I really think that that is how I would have played it. Now.

Yeah, I don't know how to.

Play a rich girl. I've always been I've always been the poor girl next door.

So so this episode, you know, our podcast is like we talk about the episode of the show, but then we also talk about the true crime was based on. We thought that this episode was loosely based on Lacy and Scott Peterson just because of the time that it came out, like that that case was like dominating the airwaves. Like, so I was wondering if you like remember like shooting this at that time with like the news happening about that or not really.

You know, I definitely don't remember that. I think that all the medical aspects of it I totally credited to Neil bhar and how the whole like placent is gonna rip out like all that. I was like, that's so Neil. And the ticking clock of it all really I thought worked very very well in this episode.

I love that Chris is like, we have nineteen hours left.

And the other thing I loved about it was that Chrismal what's a stabler was like, just gonna deliver a baby? Here he goes.

I was like, I just have my twelve of his own, so we thought, yeah.

He's like, get me a newspaper. That's gonna be the swaddle. I'm rolling up my sleeves. This baby's coming. And I actually I was watching it going stable or just give her a couple minutes. I can hear the ambulance tell her not to push, don't push. I was like really kind of invested in it, and he's like, baby's coming.

I'm delivering this baby, not the.

Pars he gonna be the hero if he waits for the ambulance.

Exactly because I could see the writers and the writers room going. But it's such a great moment to have him deliver the baby, even though he really should tell her.

Not to push.

And then I also like how they're like, tell us, who did it? Was it?

Come on, talk to us, and she's like, you know, no, but but great moment. I also thought it was really great that Benson hands the baby to what's his face, Daniel Daniel Daniel Daniel Gables, Yeah, the guy who plays Daniel. So how he how she puts the baby in his arms and then it's like, this is your baby. You are all she has in the world. So I thought that was a really really good moment too.

Do you think they did end up together?

Oh no, no, no, no, no, oh no, not at all. And that guy Gabe weirdly apparently I went to call you with him, but I don't remember it.

Yeah. I wanted to ask you about that too, when you were talking about how like, you know, you escaped from the you know, pitfalls of child stardom. I feel like I can usually tell when somebody steps away and goes to college for a few years that they kind of have their head on a little bit straight about the whole fame and act like celebrity thing. So how did that.

All come about?

Were you did you always know you wanted to go to college? Did you do it a little bit like later or was there like a break in your acting?

Like what was that situation?

So my college was a real like, my college experience was a real journey. I decided when I was in ninth grade that I wanted to go to Yale because that is where Jody Foster went.

That's it.

That's all I knew about Yale. I didn't know that Yale was a great school. I didn't know anything about Yale except that Jody Foster went there.

So that is.

And Jody was a child actor like me. Not that I was like Jodie Foster, God knows. I mean Jody Foster Foster. But she was a child actor. She went away to school, she came back, she directs. She's an actor. I'm like, that's what I want to do that. So really I just patterned my life after her. So I worked really hard in school, even though I was on set. I went to high school on the set of Life Goes On. I never stepped foot in a real high

When I did R.

I actually left between my junior and senior year to do AR and never thought I would go back. But then when I died on AR, I was like, I'm all done acting. This is awful. I never want to be an actor again. I'm going back to school. But I had been gone from college for so long that I had to reapply and get in again.

Oh my gosh, how she did Okay? Great?

I flat did another application and Ironically, my last year there was my best year there. I made straight a's because I was really invested in and I really wasn't going to be an actor anymore.

I was going to be an art historian.

Yeah.

Well I read that in your Wikipedia that you majored and was in art history. And so then what happened because I don't know that your art historian ing right now?

Then I did a pilot that didn't go, but I was like, okay, like acting being an art historian's hard, Like I would have to Like I realized I would have to go to school for like I'd have to get my PhD for anyone to take me seriously in the world of art history. And that was a long long time and acting so much easier for me. So I just decided to go back to acting.

I mean, I think it's cool that you did something a little bit off of your path. You know, Yale has a great drama school too, but you did something like, you know, totally different.

Yeah.

I think.

I've been an actor for so long that I needed to do something completely different. And ironically, art history actually has a lot for me. It was it's easy to enter a painting or a photograph because I think of it as like if it's a portrait or like a scene with people in it, I definitely picture the scene and the character aspect of it. That's kind of how

So it kind of makes sense for me.

And I'm obsessed with history, very obsessed with the Civil War right now, very very very into it.

How do you soak up your new Civil War? Yeah, so.

I think everybody understands right now. I'm a real big nerd. When we went into lockdown in March twenty twenty, I just decided to kind of like go back to school

Oh, hello, so here I am.

I took the Civil War class that Yale offered for free online. And now I just finished a Frederick Douglas class and I'm reading his auto his biography right now.

So is this for only former Yale students or anyone else?

Just hit it?

You can take it if you just go to like free Yale courses, Like just google that and there's just a list of courses that you can just watch from these incredible professors. And so that's kind of how I got through this like crazy lockdown COVID thing. Is I just pretended. I was like, Okay, well I'm not acting. I when I don't act, I go back to school. So that's kind of what I did.

I mean, I hope I can do it.

Knowing myself, I probably would never, but I love the idea of taking.

A Yale course in my home chat. I want to do it. Well, another universe that you're in that.

I'm obsessed with Lifetime Death of a Cheerleader. That was a big movie for me. How does it feel being in the Lifetime? Oh?

That was great. I was glad to be in the You know, Lifetime didn't make that movie that really. I think that was NBC actually, and then Lifetime bought it and basically acted.

Like it was there.

Yeah, that's how I know about it.

That's a true crime movie, Death of a Cheerleader. Hilariously, Tori and I have reconnected recently. She lives in my neighborhood now, which is so funny. But my whole motivation for that movie was I realized I was playing a real girl who was at the time when we shot it, she was locked up, but she I knew if she ever got out, I didn't want her coming to look for me because I portrayed portrayed her as a crazy bitch.

That's so good.

I love it.

And then another big kind of moment. I don't know if you've have you felt the resurfacing of the Goofy movie and the love of that, and just on the internet it seems like it's really having a moment again.

Blah blah.

Don't even know what to say to this. It's the weirdest thing. I have to tell you. I find it incredibly bizarre because I've spent many years not knowing that people love a Goofy movie as much as they do. Like people send me drawings all the time on Instagram of rock Sane and are really really into a Goofy movie. And I've been asked to do podcasts and interviews about the Goofy movie, and I always say to them, I'm like, truly, I have no recollection of doing the Goofy movie. Zero,

Who love it.

Then, but then I watched it. I hadn't seen it, I think since it had come out since I like, I think went to the premiere or something when I was like fourteen. So I watched it and I was like, this is such a good movie.

Yeah, it's so good.

It's unlike anything Disney's ever made. It's really like watching like Dawson's Creek.

I don't know, like.

It's like a teen drama like it's interested.

Yeah, and rock Sanza babe. People love Roxanem Babe. What.

Yeah, I had no idea, so I I find it on Instagram and Twitter to be absolutely fascinating how much people love a goofy movie.

I love it.

So besides the Life Goes On reboot, which we will obviously be awaiting with Baited Breath, what else do you have any other like projects or current things going on that you want our listeners to know about or well?

I definitely so the podcast is ongoing, like those one will be coming out. I just actually directed a thing that just aired over the Christmas over December, and that's it. Actually, that is all I have going on aside why did you direct? I directed a movie called Mistletoe in Montana for Lifetime, starring Melissa Joanehart as a cattle rancher.

Another SPU alum and an art collector. Do you know about Melissa Joonhart's art collection?

I do.

Melissa and I are very close.

You guys are close, Okay, so maybe I'll get scooped from you. I just saw it once on tak Nataro's YouTube show, and I was like, wait, so we're going to the teenage witch has Dolly's and Picasso's.

What is happened?

She's so cool, she does. She has a lot of them. Actually, she has quite an art collection.

I'm ablinsed.

Melissa's not messing She's not messing around. You should have her on by the way. She's delightful. And we actually talk about her SPU episode on the podcast when I

Wow, because we've had a bunch of people, like younger actresses usually that have said I wanted to cry and I couldn't, and Marishka really helped me cry.

I think Marishka sees that that sees that as her role and wants to deliver that so it's an option in the editing room if they haven't, which is very good of her. I found her attempts to help me cry did not help me. Infect pushed me the other way.

So what was she doing to you off camera to make you cry.

There's a thing actors do. There's a thing actors do off camera to help you cry. Either they cry, which maybe sometimes works for some people when they're doing their on camera to cry, or she yell like you will yell at you and try to startle you. And I was like, I know all these tricks.

God lover.

Honestly, I'm not saying anything against Marishka. It's totally on me because I was like, I've made a choice and I'm sticking to it, even though it's your show.

Marishka, I'm okay with your choice. I think that Melinda was probably like I'll find another poor guy to marry.

Yeah, because wasps don't cry out or like in public.

You know, I agree with that. I feel like she was a little bit I feel like she was a little bit kind of dead inside. I kind of that's what I went for. So, you know, sorry, Marushka.

Kelly, we love you.

My gosh, Like I told my husband about the Yale classes and we'll see do them.

She's cool.

I love people that love their work and I love people they work with.

Yes, I love child actors that ended up normal, Like it's fun.

It's like to college Patti La Pone singing at your wedding.

And I love then you imagine.

I just love the people that are like, wow, this kid's got it. Yeah, it's just like Miss Broadway. No, that's actually so insulting when after shows people are like, don't don't stop, you gotta keep going, and it's like, yeah, why would I stop? You think it's just you that's gonna keep me into this. It's like I've been I've been twelve years deep just to get to this half empty club in the middle of the country.

What are you talking about?

So obviously this episode is controversial. I'm taking a weird stance. Come at me, don't. Let's have a dialogue. Did I just become a youth pastor? So Kara? Did I got read? Well?

See? Okay, listen, I will tell you something.

I respect Lisa's feelings and thoughts and conclusions. I will say I did come across a book that was I think it was like written by someone else, but it's like, from the perspective of Scott Peterson's brother that's called Blood Brother thirty three Reasons, my brother Scott Peterson is guilty. So even his family is like, nah, he did it?

But it's like, I mean, but.

Not this podcaster, not this criminal podcaster SVU. Why can't we just have criminal podcast moment. We don't even have to act. Put us in your fucking show.

I know, Well, can.

You believe the surprise? Because we wouldn't tell anyone we were in the episode, and then we would everyone would go nuts on Thursday and on Tuesday, you know on Alice would have to edit hardcore quickly, quick turnaround.

But yeah, it would be so excited.

I would buy us also huffing and puffing in a workout class.

In the park.

Yes, you know, we're doing a workout class in the park and we're like fuck this, like.

We hate it.

We're slogging through it, and then there's some part where it's like run it, like run down these trails, and then we find a body that is good, that is good.

I love that.

I don't think I could top it. I was like, can we be at brunch? Are we walking? Argue, it's been no one's been in a world, very few workout classes actually out in the park, and we could kill that.

We wouldn't do it.

Yeah, because I went to a little outdoor birthday party the other day and there was just a full, like huge loud or outclass going on outside. I was like, I didn't realize you could turn anywhere you wanted into a gold gym if you wanted to. But I guess you can if you have a loud enough speaker.

Oh.

I love the person who tweeted being like, can't wait to hear Lisa talk about tomorrow's police outfit, and it's like, you guys really do know me?

Well, I did definitely mention him in his outfit. Fucking hot piece of ass.

Anyways, so rude, no wonder he's not coming on the podcast. You probably listened to one episode and was like, I don't think this is safe for me.

Not a same space. It is tragic.

You know, we do have fun on this show, but at the end of the day, it is a track.

Oh it's horrible. I can't believe how long ago it was.

I can't believe that Connor the baby would be like, you know, twenty one now, Like that's horrible, but I think, uh, I don't know what we learned from this. Basically, it's always the husband and.

Cops fuck up.

Cops are bad at their jobs, and because of them, we have weird things. Yeah, there's like everything is cops fucking up.

But I think this is also a really interesting look at what we're obsessed with, Like we're obsessed with pretty white pregnant women going missing. Whereas we talked about how the was it Wesson the case of the guy with all the kids that he killed, I mean that was happening at the same time and barely like made a blip.

I feel like, you know, they're pregnant women had gone missing. Yeah, yeah, it's just annoying when people don't acknowledge that racism is real.

But right not our listeners.

Yeah, you know, all right, if you're let's let's move on. What would Sister Peg do this week? Our weekly segment where we tell you guys about organizations or direct you towards books or articles or something that will give you more info on this case or what we talked about in today's episode. So if you guys are interested in more info about Lacy and Scott.

Some people are very taken with this case. Is a book, a.

New York Times bestseller called A Deadly Game, The Untold Story of the Scott Peterson Investigation. It's written by a former judge Catherine Cryer. I love the idea that it's written by someone who knows the legal system up and down, and it draws from extensive interviews with key witnesses, lead investigators, as well as secret evidence files that never made it

Thank you so much for that.

We know that I will not be reading this book or any other book, but I but to all of you literate motherfuckers, have at it, and next week please join us. We will be doing the episode Justice, one of my favorites. I've wanted this one for a very long time. Season three, episode nineteen.

A hot one.

Watch it, keep up with us, never watch it. We're so lucky and see you next week.

Bye.

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