Starved w/ Veronica Cartwright

Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories, Done done, Hello and welcome to That's Messed Up n SVU podcast.

I'm Kara Klank and I'm Liza Traeger.

We talked SVU crimes, celeb guests. It's really a podcast that has it all New York's hottest club if you know you know, Okay, so Karra, I guess the biggest thing in our lives is we did see the Backstreet Boys.

Oh my god, we did.

Truly one of the best nights of my life. I can't stop smiling about it. And they really just played hit after hit and then sneak in a new one from their new hit album DNA, and then mentioned DNA. They brought their kids on stage, and like, I think for me, you know, we don't get like I felt so surprised at the encore because they did I want it that way before the encore. Then they come back and they're doing a new song I don't really know, and I'm like, what the fuck are they gonna end

It was really, it was really an experience. I had so much fun. And a shout out to our listener and friend Sofia who took us.

Thank you Sophia. And it was her.

Birthday, Happy birthday girl, and yeah, we had the best time. I was in the same boat. I was like, you just can't. I want it that way. It's just like, how are we going to surpass it? And they fucking did it.

They did it with true surprise. Nicole Richie was Kitty Corner. Oh my god.

The Cole Ritchie was too, like a diagonal box in front of us.

It was amazing.

Yeah, So at first I saw Joel Madden and I went, she's gotta be near. And then I saw Sophia Ritchie, her new fiance. I was happy to see them, and then some other she friends, but I didn't know who they were. And then there was an enemy there as well, which I couldn't believe. I was sitting even closer so between the Cole Ritchie and I was a person.

That I truly would care not to talk to.

And I know this person too, and they came up to me and they were like hey, and then I was like, oh hi, I haven't talked to you in so long, and like we were sort of like just tugging, and then she goes, oh, yeah, Lisa and I know each other from like back in the day, and I was like, oh yeah, I put it together.

I was like, oh yeah, these two fucking hate each other.

I don't think she realizes because she's like, we should be chill. I'm like, I fucking hate you, and but I hugged her. I gave her a cold hug, like a lifeless, emotionless.

She gave her a hug and then like turned around and was like, this is the rest is for you.

I was like, okay, I'll handle this. Like it was funny.

It was just too much of a fantasy day. I'd never been to the Hollywood Bowl. Our seats were so close. It was just thrilling. It was our friend's birthday. I don't know.

It was like, I wonder iful run into anyone we know, and and because I love.

Running into people. I love running into people.

And listeners have messaged us, saying that they were there, like we could have run into listeners, we could have run into friends, but we run into.

Nicole Richie made up for it. The Backstreet Boys surpassed it. Dance moves, gimmicks like the light up Mike stands in the hat, dance like thank you.

I don't like honestly, I was not not fully on the side of like, oh is this going to be sad? Like we've had people say like, oh is it sad? And it's like, we'll see what it's gonna be like. And there they are entertainers, like they are still so good at it, Like I'm sorry, they're in their like early forties. If anything, they're not just so funny because their dance moves are killer.

That's That's what I'm saying, Like, well, I was impressive.

I keep telling my parents that. Sorry, I kept interrupting you. It's obviously very exciting, but no, their choreo was incredible, like Kara was saying, So I keep telling my parents, and my parents who are ancient, are like, yeah, they're not old. And I'm treating it like can you believe them dancing at full force? And they're like, yeah, they're young.

Men.

I'm eighty four, so it is they are, but they are working out.

They are working so hard, but they're working at it.

Singing, singing and great voices and full out choreo, full out.

They killed it.

And the Hollywood Bowl is just such like a magical place to see a concert.

I love going to see stuff there.

So I did have one humiliating moment where I did get soft served and I felt like George from Seinfeld and I was like, this is upsetting.

Also, I did run into a listener in the bathroom. Hello.

We did have a very nice chat and then she cupped my face and I went, did you wash your hands yet? And she went no. And that was a moment time. So thank you for that lovely moment. But then in a wild s view turn of events, Sophia and I went to the comedy store to keep drinking. The board are going and I like to sit in the back open area. It's like whatever, it's kind of special and I usually sit outside there, but you don't know what's happening inside. So finally the manager comes in.

So then we go outside. There's one last server.

The three of us are hanging out, and then there's just like unsavory people on the other side of the like barrier. So there's just three people. I'm not into their vibe. And I turned to the server and I was like, please don't leave. I was like, please let us get into our cars before you leave, and he was like, yeah, for sure, and then we left and then someone pulled a knife.

Out on him.

The one of the guys a six inch blade crazy and he's fine. I haven't talked to him, but I hear he's okay. He got into his car, but we can't leave anyone. I was like so much, like you need to protect us, and then I was like, babe, and then he got.

A fucking knife pulled out on him.

So I'm glad I left, but we should have made sure he got into his car too.

It was yeah, these people seem unhinged.

But then they made a Facebook post. I did not see it. I'm not on Facebook, but.

Well you are, but you're not.

I got locked out and the effort to get back in not gonna happen.

So I'm out.

But I guess these people admitted it all on their Facebook page and like said wild stuff, but I don't know it was I'm I just they just sucked from top.

Yeah, but then you were also telling me that the comedy store says like a lot of people bring knives, Like what the fun?

Yeah around with a knife. I don't know, shit's fucked up.

We're like in water World minus the water, like we are in fuck in some dystopian madness. And I don't know, you don't know what to say, but yeah, they wand everyone, and they confiscate about six knives the night, they say, but they have to give them back to people at the end of the night. Yeah, by law or something. But I'm glad they're wanding people. So thank you to the security staff that's wanding people.

Yeah. My father famously always has a knife on his belt and has many times tried to go through airport security with it, and they'll say he's actually rescheduled flights because he's.

Already gone through.

He's like already checked a bag and they're like, well, you need to throw the knife away then, and he's like, no, I won't do that.

So he'll reschedule flight to go on like a later flight so that he.

Can want to just pack it in his check because he's a dumbass.

He forgets the knife is a part of him. I want a knife, though.

Look in a world where people are walking around with AR fifteen's blowing away sixty people at a time, I would love everyone to just carry a knife if that makes them feel safe, because you can't do that much damage with a knife.

But do you know Mandy the photographer and her husband obviously, so she was telling me like details of it, like I think she's in the knives or has a knife, and she was saying, you want to get one that has like this indent so like the blood like pours out geez. And I was but right, isn't that shocking for her to say it? Like she just doesn't seem like someone that would explain how to like drip knife out of a knife.

Yeah, but she didn't.

Get Oh my god, I don't think I'll be carrying a knife anytime soon.

Would love to see it for you, Lisa, I don't know. It's I think it's like hip.

I think it's the brand new trend is going to be knife carrying, Like I just can sit like, there's knives at daughter. There's knives at daughter, Like really you could buy you can buy a knife at daughter.

So to me, it's like, okay, you.

Could buy one hundred and fifty dollars linen dress or a knife.

So it's on the you know, knives are about to be huge. Okay, knives are about to have a moment. You heard it here first.

Yeah, that's that's how I feel.

Oh. I watched the movie Blended last night in the hotel while I was doing my crime research.

What is it?

It's Adam Sandler Andrew Barrymore, and I think you can watch it without commercials on Netflix, but I decided to watch it on the E channel. And it's really good. It's like a sweet movie. I cried at the end.

I liked it. I mean, it's like cheesy and weird.

I'm not saying it's a perfect movie, but I loved it.

It was cute.

It was just better than I thought. I thought it was gonna be like Jack and Jill. I don't know, like I just thought it was gonna be like a mess.

Is it about? It's not a mess.

Man and a woman with their own kids that blown their families absolutely in an African resort. Ah got it the twist.

But Wendy something something from Bridesmaids and the Goldbergs.

What's her name? She's so funny and she's.

Wendy McClendon Covey, one of my favorite favorite girl.

Why can't she? Why isn't she on SVO? She should be on her must be on s She would be great on an SVO.

Wendy. Yes, you know our girl in casting who listens? I think Wendy. I think she'd be an amazing rich mom that ends up, you know, being the bad villain.

But she can play anything. She can play, can play trash like she's really good. She could play dumb smart.

You're right, Yeah, I think my fantasy is I want her to be bad.

Yeah, she could absolutely play bad. Did you see I watched She's I mean the Reno nine one one movie that they did like during COVID. It's the most wild movie. Like I can tell they couldn't get You could tell they.

Couldn't get Nissi Nash for all of it.

So there's just like a full body double in it for like a bunch of it where it's just the back of Nisi Nash's heads so funny.

I love that.

But she's really funny in it all. As always, she's hilarious. No, I follow her on inside, love her. I'm obsessed with her from Bridesmaids and beyond. But Reno nine one one and all that.

Yeah, I think that's a blind spot for me. I have to watch Reno nine to one one.

Yeah, it's really wild and funny. Do you talk about my hotel drama? I don't know.

I'm fine to talk about it, or we could just listen. I got scammed and I sent you. I sent you the things, like I booked it in front of you in the car on the way to the airport, but I sent you the information, Like do you feel like I'm a full dumbass or is a trick in a scam? Well?

No, but okay, So what happened was she booked this, she booked this room, and then once she was done booking it, when she got to the total the taxes and fees was like eighty percent of what the whole total cost would be, more than fifty dollars in eees, more than fifty percent of what the total thing was.

And I was like, that is kind of crazy.

I'm gonna show look this is but this is the.

Site, Like, yeah, it does look like a real It was.

The first thing I should have seen the ad. I should have seen it all. I've booked at this place before, but I just seem like not, you know, I'm just living out to Robert, an incredible manager at the hotel I'm staying at, and he figured it out and I got a full refund because all these people on because then I started looking up the reviews and everyone's like I thought I was booking with the hotel. After I paid, they added all these fees and they said I couldn't

Here's the thing, like, why are you trying to get your ass shut down? Like add two hundred bucks and move on. No one would even notice that they were that you were fucking them up. Why are you getting crady trying to add eight hundred dollars like they if it had been like one hundred, Like if they just add like a couple hundred bucks per person. That's how you make money. You're gonna get shut down by the Better Business Bureau.

I don't know.

Again, Like I try to tell people how to commit crimes better, I'm also trying to tell people how.

To scam people better.

Now.

Well, also, I messaged the hotel chain and I'm going to send them infoward. It's like, don't partner with these people. They're scam artists. Like why are you partnering with them? That's like, that's that's not allowed. That shouldn't You should be partnering with like shady websites if you want to have a legitimate business. But also, I'll stay here forever. It's like the top hotel in Scoquie. I'm not gonna stay close to the panera.

Are you kidding? Yeah?

All right, Well, I'm glad you figured it out and didn't get fully scammed.

But oh, we have one more shout out. We do have a shout out.

We were in San Francisco, Ali and Mark brought us pies from I guess a very good pie shop. Yeah, we were wasted around one thirty in the morning, and those pies.

Were helpful and delicious.

They were so good and we ate them with our bare hands, just scooped dumb.

We were in my hotel room with no uh and a couple of my friends and we had no utensils, and we were just like taking we were taking like pieces of crust and like shoveling the pie scoop into our moouse.

But we are some of the some of the best pies I've ever had. And San Francis was really fun.

It was cool.

Sorry you all got rushed by the staff mid sentence, ha ha.

It was really really fun.

Apparently the reason we couldn't really find like a good bar to go out at after is because like San Francisco's kind of sleepy. People said, they're like, it's like an it's like a people go to bed.

Early and wake up early. It was a ghost time.

We walked back to our hotel and not a single soul was out on the store.

Why yeah, one.

But maybe we were in a different Maybe we were in like a business area, because sometimes they were made in like business districts in towns and it does shut down. I'm like, why has Pop Belly's closed it too? Like I don't get it. But it's because they just service the people in suits and service the corporate Let's get this going.

Let's get this party fucking started. We've got a great episode for you, guys. Do not go anywhere.

We are doing a classic episode. If you're a fan of John mulaney his comedy, you know this is the Dean Kine episode, but officially it is called Starved, Season seven, episode eighteen, and the air date's November fifteenth, and that is my nephew's birthday.

Shout out, Benji, so very excited about that. Two thousand, two thousand and five.

Wait, Lisa, can you tell me the Milleni joke about Dean Kane. I don't think I remember it.

Oh, it's like if you were gonna get it, like you're getting attacked on the.

Show and you're like, wait, are you Dean Kane?

And then he says the name Dean Caine like ten times, but oh okay, Yeah, it's just kind of just recognizing that it's Dean Kane, who did unfortunately become a wild I think Republican who.

Yeah, he's like in the anti Antonio Sabato Junior camp of like former like nineties successful people who are now and like Scott Bayo and now they're all like full right, wing people. I just the only one of Milleni's I ever remember is where he's like then there's always like a permissive judge who goes I'll allow it, but watch yourself.

McCoy, that's my favorite. John mulaney. Wo the IC one. I didn't realize he had. So he has four SVU jokes.

That means, well, the Jack McCoy one, I guess is an original recipe joke. But yeah, in the iced t one, you tell me this guy gets off on diddling little girls or something, right, that's that one.

Yeah, Oh, here we are, I mean, are we even allowed to do this?

We are not allowed to sing two words of a song, and now we're just quoting jokes.

We might get sued, but we're.

Saying his name, and I think, you know, he might be a fan of the pod.

We're giving credit. We're giving credit. He's busy raising a child. I think I don't know I'm being on tour, Yeah, hanging.

Out with Chappelle, YadA, YadA. So it's the dank episode we're here. It's called Starve. Let's start. It opens with some latex gloved hands picking a lock. Dark thematic music plays, A light bulb gets twisted out. It's October second, and they make a point to zoom in on that on like a paper calendar, like a one one off rippy calendar that I think is not eco friendly anymore.

I don't know if they still make those.

Yeah, though I used to have those, like the Dark Side Calendar, of course you did, or the Far.

Side What is it? Yeah? Yeah, I love those. Like a cartoon a day, I was like, they make me giggle. There's a criminal and.

A black ski mask which just the eyes popping out, and he's closing in on a woman sleeping. He covers her mouth as she struggles, and then he says, obayby or die. Now we're in a new home in the calendar says October twelfth, and he's cutting a phone cord. He covers the mouth of another woman and says the

She's in a pink silk robe, very upset.

She said that he was strong, tall, Then she said she smells baby powder, and then he said obey me or die. So Benson's like, fuck, this is the third attack this month, and Stabler says, so far, it's like okay, asshole, why don't you stop them?

Then? Yeah, we're not cause we're gonna suck like I Yeah, So it's not the attitude you want to manifest that you're gonna find the guy. Yeah, Like, she's right there on a gurney with you. Can you just be a little more optimistic with this woman? Yeah.

So we're back and we're with the last victim, and she's now in a gray zippy hoodie at the hospital talking with the detectives. She says she always locks the door, and Benson's like, yeah, he picked the lock, and he also picked the locks of all the other victims, so he knew that you guys were all going to be alone. So we have to find out what all of you have in common to find out who this is. So they start going down all the things like what Jim, do you go to do you go to church, are

So Jews can mate with other Jews.

I don't know if there's another culture that's so obsessed with like fucking within your religion. Maybe they all are, but it seems like Jews go out of their way.

Yeah, Like isn't birthright?

Like mostly for that too, It's like, oh, get together, meet other kids that are in your religion, like start relationships. Like it definitely feels like a thing I associate with Judaism. And also I've met like Catholic people that are like, oh, I'm marrying somebody like this, And I've had Jewish friends who are like, I cannot marry outside of Judaism.

Yeah, and it's like, you know, the parents are always guilting you with the Holocaust, so you have to like repopulate or something.

I don't know.

I mean I had a friend, I had a friend in New York who was like I really like this guy, Like we get along so great.

But he's not Jewish, so it's not gonna work out.

Like I was like, you're just gonna what Like I couldn't believe that, Like, but yeah, well yeah.

I had one psycho friend who became a religious Jew. She was like a casual Russian Jew like me, and then became a super Jew. And she basically told me if marrying a non Jew is like saying that Hitler. And I was like, no, I think you're just the new Hitler, you weirdo, Like what are you talking about? The whole point is that we're all just chilling people trying our best, like, and it doesn't matter what you are, not that, like, if you fuck a Catholic, you're on Hitler's side.

Whatever. We don't really speak.

It definitely feels like a master race type of thing that you're trying to do if you're trying.

To like keep everybody to get you know.

I mean, that's one thing about the Jews that I love. They're not trying to convert you, you know what I mean. You never see your Jews knocking on the window. They don't need you, like, and I.

Know they're not trying to convert you.

They're just trying to get their own together with each other to produce more Jews.

If that's it, Oh my god, religion is fucked. Okay, all right, okay, So we get Munch's little jew lesson and then he says it's one of the many contributions as people have made, and then iced he ironically says bagels, even though at this point in time he's never even eaten a bagel.

Ever, not one.

And even more ironically, I was eating a bagel in my London hotel room as I was watching and writing this note. Wow, can you imagine this bagel? Little matrix we have going on? So Stabler is a fucking idiot, so he asks how to speed dating work, and then he gets a detailed description for Munch, and then Stabler tries to shame him, and he's like, why do you

That's what I was just gonna say, what speed dating?

I got married at eighteen, straight out of Catholic school.

Explain it to me. What do you mean you're busy?

Don't you have a woman just doing shit for you at the house you don't let leave or have a hobby. None of them went on dates with the same guy, though, so who could it be. So they're like, maybe it's the head of the company or a worker in the company, or maybe fake names have been used. And we know

I love this detail.

I hope that's included in the real crime that you covered today, Kara. I hope there's a therapist that loses his license. I love this my type exactly. He's denying raping anybody, but he's the only link between all three women, and they all dated different men, and he says maybe not some people don't use their real names for speed dating. So the guy tries to see if maybe all those different names have like one email. They do, it's Romeo

I loving your notes.

It's like it's lit up, like it's a really email address. Y, like it jumps off the page because I'm like, oh romeo at forumail dot com.

Oh, they hyperlinked it.

They didn't know that it was an sv fake place, and they tell him to please halla if that email signs up for another dating event. We're back at the chalkboard at the precinct and stablers with the three female victims that we met earlier, swapping details about the guy that they went on a date with, and we find out that he paid for everything, opened the door for them, listen to them, but then why no second dates? Table asks, He's like, damn, you gotta marry that guy. He opened

I like that.

Too, and I would be crushing at the speed dating event.

And so it's time to switch dates.

And you know, her sticker says Rachel, and in walks Dean Kane and he says his name is Jim, and he's like, you're the hottest babe in this room, and they giggle, they flirt.

She does a busy successful.

Woman spiel and not wanting to fuck men at work, and then he has kind of a sexy line and goes my business, won't fuck with our pleasure. They giggle cats in the bag. So now we're back in the office and Stabler is trying to shade Olivia because he hasn't called yet, and she's like he's gonna call, and he's like, Oh, don't worry, you might not be his type. And I'm just so annoyed with Stabler here. It's like she's everybody's type. Go fuck yourself.

Yeah, Also, do you think that, like, do you think there just got to be a point where they were like, we don't send Olivia to do undercover anymore now, we just send Rollins. Like it's not like she's not still gorgeous, Like they just don't. I mean, she's a captain now, so obviously you wouldn't really do that. But like, there just got to be a point in the show where they were like Rollin's is always undercover and Olivia never is anymore as like the sexy babe going on the date.

Yeah, kat was like undercover as just an annoying person, and then Correese and Stabler have gone undercover as pedophiles. They're like, yeah, cover pedophiles, but yeah, captains can't go undercover. Also, Benson is so famous, isn't she always in the newspapers and do it for that conference?

Like that's true too, that's true. She is a famous police captain.

Yeah, she's like meeting well, you know, it's kind of this is not ripped from the headlines. A captain getting a police officer getting news for doing something good does not happen. So now they go off to a date. Okay,

Yeah, don't touch my hair, Yeah, I don't touch my hair too much? Too much.

When the waitress comes over, he asks the for Rachel aka Benson wants another drink. She asks for another glass of wine and he says, no, no, she's gonna have a dirty vodka martini with extra olives and what a punge in drink. Both Karen and I would not like that, we would be I'm very upset with any of them.

No, we don't want that, and.

I want that and she's like, oh, I don't drink vodka. I want wine and he says, no, trust me, you're gonna love it. So this is definitely our guy, very on the nose with what the woman said about him, and Rachel ak Benson is grossed out. Then he reveals he's recently single, and he says the craziest stuff about his ex, like what woman would be into anything that he.

Is saying right here?

He's like, yeah, I knew two months and she wasn't for me, but I kept dating her because she cooked and kept the apartment clean, Like you're saying that out loud to a woman. He says that she's too clingy, insecure. He wants an equal a woman who knows what she wants, except won't let her have it, like she wanted a glass of wine. You definitely don't like a woman who knows what she wants, like you want to break her. Like, so yeah, he wants a woman that he can dim

I don't know. I don't know.

Also, like I I know that this is like a trope in television shows to wear such a fancy outfit like what Benson is wearing. But like, have you ever worn anything remotely this fancy on a first date? No?

But maybe rich people that go to such fits. No, I haven't. I don't know, Like I mean, I would maybe wear like a skirt.

I don't know, like I can't remember I've been on blind first dates like from internet dating or whatever. But like I feel like it's I was very keeping it cash, don't try too hard, but like there are people are always in like a slinky body con dress, like heading out for a first date.

I know it's very sex in the city.

When Charlotte's like Saturday's date night, I would never yeah, you know, like so maybe people maybe the cosm when Cosmo was king in the nineties, people dressed up.

I wonder if dating's changed. I don't know, Yeah, I mean, I don't know.

Yeah, I mean, I think it's like everybody with apps, it's like everyone's trying to like be a little bit more casual. So it's like before you go out to like a fancy dinner, you'd maybe just meet for coffee or meat for a drink first, and then maybe like your second or third date would be like I'm taking you to like, you know, hot restaurant.

I was talking to a friend out here who went on a first date and he showed up with six bunches of flowers and she didn't love that, But then he had tickets to a concert. She wanted to go to so she did go to the concert with him, and then he got so blackout drunk and then she never saw him.

Again because he was just so wasted at this concert. Oh no, but yeah, like yeah, we're we're. He sounds like he was really nervous.

Yeah, then maybe one bunch of flowers, but yeah, just don't ever go with six bunches of flowers or just more casual like even we've talked before about like high school kids like proms, like people are wearing short dresses.

They're not doing ball gowns like they used to. It's sneakers.

I think just as a society, we've kind of you know, chilled out a little bit.

Well yeah, and I mean especially in LA.

Like I remember going into some places in New York where I'd be like, oh, I'm not dressed nice enough for this place. And in LA that like doesn't exist. You can go to the nicest fucking restaurant and there's some like tech dude in like a hoodie and cargo shorts, and like it just doesn't I've probably said this before on the podcast, but like I think there's no way to underdress here.

Like no, yeah, yoga moms.

Yoga moms are the leaders of La leisure, baby, so whatever. So we're back to iced tea and giant glasses and he chases after them. Now Benson is walking towards her place, and he's waiting for her in some back door on the floor, like this weird door that looks like it's part of like a restaurant with a little square thing like. I don't think Benson would live in a building with this kind of door, but he's he's into some door. Watch the fucking episode. I can't describe this door any

And it has like a little window. Yeah.

So he's standing outside the apartment watching her, and then Stabler and Finn are there to arrest him for three counts of rape. I think they should have waited for him to enter the apartment, but it's TV and I get it.

Whatever.

So now we're in interrogation. He's standing in front of the wired window. I didn't rape anyone. I'm a surgeon, okay, okay, I save lives every day. And Stabler is like, yeah, to make up for your bad performance in the bedroom. Heard you got rejected a lot, and he says, you must have me mistaken for somebody else, and Sabler is like yes and starts rattling off all the fake names he's been using, and in walks Benson, saying and Jim, and he goes Rachel and she goes, nah, my name's

Yeah, literal dollar signs. When I hear doctor, I don't even think rich.

I think you have a busy schedule and I like to lounge a little more than that. And I don't think we're cat all. I can't deal with you. We're at five am, going to surgery. We're not gonna get along.

Yeah, if you're really trying to like weed out gold diggers, you should be like, I work for a nonprofit.

I'm a kindergarten teacher. I don't know something you know.

So he's a pretty bad liar for being a like conniving rapist. She quick slee shows she quick sleep. That's a cute kidname. I bet quick Slei's gonna quick sleeve. He's gonna be kids' names for cute little quick sli She quickly asks, then why did you follow me home? And he says I just I just wanted to apologize, and Sailor says, no, you just wanted to see where she lived. And he's doing big like you got the wrong guy, and Slor goes, no, you act like a

Oh and can I just say that Missus Potts that you're talking about. Minerva grand Bishop is played by Terry Garr, who is an amazing actress who I am like obsessed with from all these movies in like the eighties and nineties.

What movies would I know any of them?

Well, she was in Close Encounters of the Third Kind, which is like old Like and Tootsie and Young Frankenstein like these are all like in the seventies. Let's see, she hasn't done anything since twenty eleven, so yeah, she's not acting anymore. Yeah, spu was one of like the last ten things she did before she stopped.

So yeah, So in walks Minerva aka Sarry gar you know, Kara's number one eighties crush.

I am her number one fan.

And then behind her is, like I said, brunette woman hugs Dean Kane. It's his girlfriend, Cora Kennison, And yeah, they've been living together for a year. Everyone looks puzzled, and then she then, with the nudging of the lawyer and her guy, says that they were home together all night in bed on Tuesday, so it can't be him. Nobody believes this Okay. I'm like, it's clearly a staging.

And she's like a little mousey mouse right, She's just.

Like, oh, yeah, this is my hunky boyfriend and he's a surgeon, and like.

Yeah, yeah, she has like bags under her eyes. It's not healthy. So now the defense is having their own time in the fish tank while Novic and Benson are stay and Stabler are chatting on the other side of the glass. So Benson says how he bad mouthed her the whole day and he doesn't care about her at all, and Novak's doing her job by saying, Okay, that's not going to hold up in court.

What are you talking about.

There's no evidence, and uh like bringing the women to id him and they're like and she's like, yes, but they can only id him as going on a date with him. They can't id him as their attacker. Like

She has to break his alibi. That's like what the goal is.

So Benson's like, I'll take a run at korash that little mousey mouse. I'll fuck her like I'll fuck her up, I'll break away.

Can I just ask, though, like if anybody is it really not enough of a link that three women went on on a date with this same guy and they all ended up getting raped in the exact same way, Like how is that a coincidence?

It's not, but it's it's circumstantial.

I just can't believe that, you know, I feel like a jury, yes, but you have to be proven guilty with no bet.

What is that benefit of the doubt? Like what's the word? There's like a reasonable doubt, reasonable doubt. Yeah, so I.

Guess there's reasonable doubt that somebody followed all these women on this date with this man and then later went and raped them, like spotted them on the date with this man, and also and said to each one of them obey me or die, Like I don't know. I just feel like a jury would convict just based off of the coincidential But I guess it is okay circumstantial anyway, go on, I agree with you.

I'm not on the side of the law.

Okay, I agree with Kara, but I also understand what you know. It is what it is, right, So yeah, Benson's like, oh, I'll take a run at Cora. Don't worry. I did date her boyfriend. And it's like, okay, bitch, Caddy Benson. So she arrives at their place and Core's like, no, Mike said you would try to trick me and I don't want to talk to you, and she's like, fair, fair, fair cops are trash, Like I know that, but did he tell you he went on a date with me?

And she says, you're lying.

Benson then shows her photos of the date and maybe this is what I was saying. Finn took them with the hidden camera in his glasses.

Do you think Finn had early Google glass?

Yeah, taking photos of the Google glass in two thousand and five.

Yeah, the pilot program for Google Glass was Finn Tootuola.

So maybe he was taking photos with his big nerd glasses. She's like, there must be some other explanation, and it's like, honey, come on, denial is real. Benson is like, let's just go have coffee. And this works. You know, she is desperate and alone. So they are now having coffee and Cora's eating a muffin. Well, there's muffins on the plate there. They look blueberry, they look good. She's not eating the muffins,

That's sad, so sad.

Benson then plays the recording of Mike talking about her from the day and she starts to tear up, tears streamed down her face.

An incredible actress.

Benson pushes her, wait what No, not physically like pushes her for a.

Question and goes like wait what, wait what?

This girl's crying and Benson pushes her, shoves her so bention. Benson metaphorically pushes her like, hey, did you act?

Did he ask you to lie for him?

She slowly nods yes, then says yeah, was he home Tuesday night? And Chorus says I'm gonna be sick and she runs off, And now we're at the priests. Benson is asking Cora more questions. We learn how he left with his gym bag, and we need coor to give permission to search the apartment, and she's having a really hard time with this and keeps saying he's a good man and that she doesn't believe that he would be out there raping. Benson then bullies Cora into giving the

Yeah, it's not like rape's not about like having fun sex, Like that's like not about like that's not what it's about.

Finn is just so simple where he's like, yeah, you have a woman in video games for the job.

What's the problem. Why do you gotta what more do you want in life?

So Mike walks in and he's in scrubs and mad and rolling his eyes like a teen, like what the fuck. Benson and Cora are walking towards the elevators and they bring him in and they hug and he's like, it's not your fault.

We'll be together soon, and she.

Screams, I don't understand when they tell her like they found all of the tools and now it's an obvious commercial break and we were returned to Judge Elizabeth Donnelly's chambers. Basically, Minerva says that Cora had no right to consent to a search because it's not her apartment, and Casey says, nah, roommates or living girlfriends are allowed to give consent to searches. Then Minerva, with a curveball, goes, yeah, sure, but she doesn't actually live there. She has a lease on another

Yeah, you have to pick so many locks when you're on your way to surgery.

Yeah, but there's no ski mask and so we need to find the scheme mask that would really help the case. So but the judge judge, the search is out, the bag is out, everything is out.

I disagree with this, but I guess the law is the law.

So now we have seventy two hours to get an indictment or doctor Jurgen's walks and that's the brand of a lotion, And I don't know why they did that.

Benson and Stabler.

Are like, what now, Casey, you fucking bitch, why'd you ruin our case?

And Casey says, we.

Start over and need fresh evidence, new warrants for worklocker, house, and car.

But it's like the mask is long gone.

He's not a full dummy, and she's like, sure, but maybe proof he bought one, like come on, let's work. And they also have to convince Cora to testify and Benson does not think that's going to be possible at all, but she's Casey's first witness for the grand jury tomorrow morning.

And he sucks.

And everyone kind of wants a bit of Cora. They all are helping her, but it's also selfish in their own needs, and so like Cora is just like a sad girl that has bullie mea and is like drinking herself to death and just wants to be loved and have a mom who's not yet at her as she's in the hospital.

So this fully sucks.

So Mom, Mike, Benson, grand jury, and she just wants to cry in peace.

Let her cry alone.

It's the next morning, as Benson says good morning to Stabler walking into work, Stabler fills her in that the grand jury indicted him on all three rapes. She wasn't performing excitement good enough for him. So he's like, well, you don't seem happy, why aren't you happier?

I didn't. I did not.

Get this interaction, like you guys have cases all the time, Like why does she have to tap dance for you right now?

Yeah? And she says I'm worried about Cora.

She's really fragile, and Stabler's like, you got her into rehab, that's good, and she says, no, Virginia, the.

Mother won't let her go. Okay, Cora is over eighteen.

Why does the mother all of a sudden have like jurisdiction over Cora's life? Yeah, Virginia claims she can take care of her daughter just fine, and Stabler says love never cured an alcoholic, and in behind Stabler's head runs in the mother.

She's gone. She's gone.

So they were at Penn station waiting for the trains and then she disappeared. So the mom is like crying and blaming herself. Where could she be? It's obviously to go see Mike. So they rush over to Rikers and oh no, they're married. Oh no, jail house wedding ugh.

They got married. She can't testify against him now.

They informed the newly married couple that since the rapes though happened before the marriage, she still has to testify. But then he claims that's not why he married her. I don't know, but he's dragged away, saying he loves her. She says she's not going to rehab anymore and Mike will help her, and Benson is livid he's never helped you before. He lets you drink to control you and

And she says, I don't know.

He wasn't violent with her, and he saved her from an abusive relationship and he never raped her.

So and she's.

Only there because they made you know her testify and that she doesn't have a choice. She yells, why are you doing this to the man you love? Judge Donnelly offers her a break and she says, yes, please. So the judge has been and the judge did you notice Judith Light's hair in this? It's like eighties backup singer, like a high up jel.

It was a fucking due. It was a wild ass like David Bowie inspired. Yes, yes, yeah, yeah yeah, so eighties.

So she walks up to Dean Kane and says, I'm sorry, and he says it's okay, sweetheart, I love you. Casey no back looks at Dean Kane with disgust. Oh no, We're in Benson's bed at night. So I'm really nervous. And then she gets a call. I'm even more nervous.

It's Cora.

Mike calls her and all we hear is like, Benson, we don't know what Cora sing, So all we hear is Cora, Cora, how much of you had to drink?

I'm on my way. She has a lot of gold necklaces on. I love it. I want them all.

She calls Elliott for a bus and to call Rikers and put Mike on suicide watch. So they all arrive on the scene and the cops are giving her CPR and it's like, what the fuck just happened? And they're losing her and there's a tube in her throat and Benson's like, I just talked to her, what the fuck? And they're like, leave us alone. We have to keep her alive, So like, can you stop talking to us? We're trying to save this woman. We're at the hospital and she has a breathing tube down her throat and

And she has sixty nine I am dB credits.

Heyoh, and do you watch Big Mouth? Yeah, she's Andrew Rannall's mother and big Mouth. She's like the gay boys mom in Big Mouth. Oh, So that's exciting and she's only been in five episodes of SVU, but I feel like, what an impact like to me?

I was like, we've.

Covered yeah, we've covered other episodes she's done, and I was surprised to hear like I thought she was in many, many, many episodes.

Yeah, I just like her.

But she says that her heart is pumping, but her brain is done and it was like a deprived of oxygen for far too long and she will never recover, sad, so it's irreversible brain damage. And then her mother yells, but her eyes are moving, she is blinking, and the doctor explains that's just a brain stem reflex and she doesn't see us or anything, but like, she didn't even have that much to drink, but because of the bolimia,

We got to keep her comfortable.

And Benson says, I'm sorry, and then Virginia says, it's your fault because she drank because you were making her testify and Benson explains, no, it's Mike's fault. He called her from Rikers and told her that he was going to kill himself, and Virginia's like, but he's not dead, is he. So she screams about taking Cora home, and the doctor says, I don't think that's a good idea, and in all her chunky highlight glory, she's like, fuck you, I don't care about any of you.

She's coming home with me.

And by the way, the mom is played by Veronica Cartwright, who has been working since nineteen fifty eight, Like, still working, still doing jobs, she has one hundred and fifty four credits and like, still passionate and making shit like it's in gatible. What a career invasion of the body snatchers and birds that's iconic the birds.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, she's an icon.

So we're now with the This was obviously maybe a Neil Bear moment. Well I don't know, but so we're now at the giant gray stone columns on the outside of the courthouse that makes every one seems so small and tiny, and it's Benson filling Casey and on the events that took place. Then a man in a trench coat runs after her, saying that Judge John Ley wants to see her in her chambers. Now, oh fuck this motherfucker.

She says.

I know it will be hard for the mother to understand, but it is what it is. And back at the priestinct, stablers selling Casey, Wow, the rapist has more rights than the mother. Sucks, but it's true today, It's true all the time. Constantly, rapists have more rights than full women that are pregnant. So I don't know a rapist can sue the rape victims for custody of unwanted fetuses like

Saylor says, it's all about control.

Then Benson peeps up he's the wrong person but making the right decision, and Casey judges her. Benson says she deserves to die with dignity. Stablor says, yeah, but the mom wants her alive. And there's just like a lot of twists concerns, and Munch says, none of this matters. It's not up to us to decide who lives and dies, Like, sure, disconnect her and then what who's next? Paraplegics and the mentally challenged, And it's like, okay, okay, no one stop doing slippery slope stuff.

Okay.

Now he's bringing up the Nazis and Casey says, I gotta follow the law, which is not a great response after the Nazis are brought up, you know what I mean, Like, don't talk about following orders, right. Stabler's like, let's just go to her mother and see if she has any evidence or understanding of what Cora would have wanted. Casey goes to talk to Virginia, who's sitting next to Cora, saying how her daughter is into Quitter and even though they've never spoken about it, she knows her daughter.

How do I stop Mike?

And she says, file an appeal, But even Virginia knows that the law, like the judges, aren't going to be on her side. So Casey Sneaky Sneaky says there are other ways to get people to listen. So it cuts to her boss throwing a newspaper on her desk, saying what the hell were you thinking? Which is a good impression. I think what is his name, Fred Thompson? Frank Thompson, Oh yeah, Fred Thompson.

Yeah. So the newspaper, it's a picture of what just say it say?

It's a picture of Cora and the headline says mom to rapist, don't kill my baby.

Is that well?

In your notes it says don't kill me baby, And so I was just laughing.

It's like, don't kill me baby, so spaking.

He's like, you told her to do that? Why would you involve yourself in this mess? And she says, you taught me to speak for the victims. So it's actually your fault. Bye, and he says, no crime, victims, there is no crime, but Casey doesn't believe that, and Mike is a con man and a lunatic. And now they go and they turn on New York One, which is exciting. Shout out to her friend Allison Libby, and there was a protest with lots of signs, and she's like, this

But oh no.

They go into the room and Mike is in there with Minerva and the judge authorized this visit. This is hell. He says, I love Cora and she would not want to live like this. I've lived with her and you haven't called her once. And she says it's him who pulled them apart, and she starts to cry. Casey looks as Minerva, like, why don't you tell me he would be here? And she says, he doesn't need your permission to visit his wife, and she's right, but what a bitch, like Minerva is a bitch.

Yeah, I guess I would hire her if I need a bitch. Yeah.

Doc comes in with a judge and like paperwork, saying that she is granting an emergency hearing for the mother's sake, so let's see if we can work this shit out. Dean Kane is on the stand and he said that they had a conversation about her wants and like what her decision would be, and they panned a Virginia in court listening to him speak, and she has disdain on her face, a golden cross on her chest, and a

And why don't we ever find out if he gets if he gets convicted for rape, I want to know. I want him to like never be able to spend this one point five million dollar policy.

But if he gets the policy, can it just be in his commissary.

I don't know. I don't really know how that works.

Because I'm sure he's trying to avoid not getting raped in jail because he is Dean Kane.

Yeah, well, this is uh partially based on a case that we're gonna get to as soon as we get back from these brief messages.

Kara, I'm really excited about this because this is like a cultural touchstone.

I remember the news.

I remember the twenty twenties in the day or whatever, like this was such a thing, but I don't remember any details or anything about it.

So I feel like very excited to be informed. Yeah, yeah, I mean that's okay. That's what I was literally gonna start out saying, like you were like a teen when this was going down, like I was in my late teens early twenties, and like I even was kind of like, wait, what's going on?

Like I didn't really it.

Was just such a huge case, and I feel like there was like it was a big like late night joke, right. This episode is partially based on the Terry Shibo case, which came into the public eye in the early two thousands, and it was constantly in the news.

It was like a late night punchline.

It was like a very big water cooler topic because it touched on religious shit, it touched on political shit, and it was like a landmark case in the whole right to die debate, which if you like ever heard of doctor Kovorkian, that was like a huge thing of are people allowed to choose when they want to die? Or when do we how do we decide who lives and dies based on the quality of their life, if

She was transported to the hospital.

Paramedics had intubated her and ventilated her, so she's breathing with help at this point, and the cause of the collapse was determined as cardiac arrest, and in her chart it was noted that she was trying to keep her weight down by drinking mostly liquids in the daytime and that she was drinking about ten to fifteen glasses of ice tea a day.

I don't know if that's accurate. That's what I read.

And then she also had low potassium, which is hypokalemia, and apparently electrolyte imbalance is often caused by drinking excessive fluids, and a serious consequence of hypocalemia can be heart rhythm abnormalities, including sudden arrhythmia death syndrome, and there.

Had been I can get it. I'm gonna get.

Into it later, but there was also talk that she was suffering from an eating disorder bolimia, which ties into the episode as well, but ultimately there was no definitive cause linked to the cardiac arrest, so they do not know what caused it. And approximately one year after this initial health event, the doctors diagnosed her as being in a persistent vegetative state, which is abbreviated a lot as PVS,

So meanwhile, in that.

Year, like her husband Michael like really attended to her and he began studying nursing actually at Saint Petersburg Community College, so that he could care for her better, like and he eventually became a respiratory therapist and an er nurse. So in ninety two, this is just interesting because this brings into the bolima of it a little bit, Michael filed a malpractice suit against Terry's guynecologist on the basis that he had failed to diagnose bolimia as a possible

But like, how I mean, I'm sure people with these disorders are like really good at hiding it.

But what kind of husband are you?

You don't notice that your wife's not eating at all and drinking fifteen glasses of iced tea a day?

What'd you think was going on? I know?

But also he it's like there's all this back and forth in a lot of the stuff I was reading where some people were like, none of her friends knew she had an eating disorder, and then one case said, oh no, one of her friends did know and testified that she did know.

But in this case, this.

Malpractice suit, he did win millions of dollars, Like originally I think he was awarded six or seven million, but then they brought the judgment down to two million, and so after all his attorney's fees and everything, he got three hundred thousand, and then seven hundred and fifty thousand was put into a trust for Terry's medical care. So that's just like a little background on that side lawsuit. But so here's what happened. Nineteen ninety she has this

So it almost feels.

Like people were like, well, who is everybody doing this for the right reasons?

Or like why are people doing this? She had no living will?

Well she also I'm sorry, but he won all this money and dedicated the majority of it to her medical care. If he wanted just money, he would have kept all the money.

Yeah, and maybe bounced after that lawsuit too. Yeah, like totally totally, Like I don't see.

I think he's an idiot for not maybe realizing his wife was never eating or puking constantly, But like, it doesn't I don't know any of this, but it does if he gave all that money to her care, I can't imagine I'm trying to use her death to get money.

Well, and the other thing is it's like, yeah, it doesn't really seem like she had, uh, you know, one point five million dollars like in the episode or something like. It didn't really they were living in Saint Petersburg, Florida.

But then doctor Michael Botten. They give him.

Terry's full history and he's like, oh, never mind. I agree that the trauma is consistent with a cardiac arrest, a fall and then CPR attempts and resuscitation like never mind. So I just wanted to mention this because doctor Michael Bodden is tangentially very involved. So essentially this is what starts up in the press that Michael Chaivo didn't call nine one one right away he was abusing her, like this is about him controlling her. There's truly, like not

The tube was put back.

In on April twenty six, so she was two days without the tube and then it was put back in then in August of two thousand and one.

Later that year, Judge Greer, who we're going to hear about a lot.

He is like the main judge in this and he's like a circuit court judge in Florida. Judge Greer heard a motion in August of two thousand and one that the Shindlers were claiming that new medical treatment could restore sufficient cognitive ability so that Terry might be able to actually participate in her continued life prolonging measures and decide

So I don't know, I mean, there seems like it's semantics.

At this point in this trial, a six hour medical exam of Terry was taped and the judge was like, this is very clear that she's not responding, like she looks inert most of the time, she's just staring there. But her parents took the six hours of footage and they cut together six minutes of clips of like Terry's eyes moving, what they said was following a balloon, or like her smiling at her mother, which everyone which doctors are like, that's just a response, Like that's just like

Within a week.

When the Schindler's final appeal was exhausted, State Representative at Frank Atkinson of Florida and the Florida Legislature passed Terry's Law in an emergency session, which gave Governor Jeb Bush the authority to intervene in the case. Okay, and the New York Times put it out, something I thought was very interesting that when they're ever they're making these laws

Quote there's this rush to starve her to death end quote.

Bush said, And it's like, I just don't understand when he's saying a rush like this man did not have file to have the feeding tube removed until she had been in a vegetable for a decade.

So it's like we already know that Jeb Bush is kind of a moron. I mean, he is the police clap guy.

So it's just crazy that everyone's like, well, she's only been in this coma for ten years, what a rush to starve her to death? And that's also not They're not trying to starve her to death. I think they're trying to let her die humanly. But Michael Shaivo opposed the governor's move obviously, and he was represented by the ACLU. So on May fifth, two thousand and four, a judge ruled that Terry's law was unconstitutional and struck it down.

And then they think they can like get involved in people's decisions about their life or about their reproductive rights and things like that. It's just so the cognitive dissonance is really really wild, and so there was a lot of talk in this is like did the government go too far? Like should they be getting involved in this?

And I mean my opinion is no, but yeah, they struck down the law and then Governor Bush appealed this, but the Florida State Supreme Law Court overturned the law as unconstitutional, so he had no more recourse.

So poor Jeb Bush had to just like walk away with this one.

And him pretending the care I'm like trying to think, ye what reason this is, like it's.

So political, fully political.

There was something called like the Shaivo memo that wasn't about Jeb Bush, but it was about a different politician, and it was like essentially saying, the Terry Schibo case is a great way to like ramp up our base and get like Republican vote people to vote Republicans. So fully being used as a political pawn this woman. So in January of two thousand and five, now the Federal Supreme like the US Supreme Court, refuses to hear this case.

And then the next month the.

Shindlers try again to have the removal stopped so they can try this new swallowing therapy. Terry is unable to swallow. It's been years determined that she cannot swallow and feed herself on her own, because her parents have been trying this whole time to say, okay, if you remove her feeding tube, can we feed her? And it's like she

George W.

Bush and the Republicans are in Congress trying to figure out a way to overturn this judge's ruling. And so right after Greer orders the tube removal for March of two thousand and five, Republicans in the United States Congress subpoenat Michael and Terry Schaibo to testify as a Congressional hearing. So obviously you're thinking, this woman is vegetative, how is she going to testify? It doesn't matter. No one thinks

Of federal courts.

And then the bill was passed at twelve forty one in the morning on March twenty first, and George W.

Bush flew to Washington, d C.

From a vacation in Texas to sign the bill into order at one am in that morning. So it was like a big rush because I think they're trying to save her because now she's been two days without.

Her feeding to why can't they put this much effort into anything that truly can help humanity? This is so confusing to me, I know, do you remember the public opinion.

Was it really split? I think it was really split. I think it was really split. But I think that, you know, obviously the media stuff, it's like if you see people saw, oh, why can't her parents just keep her alive if they want to keep her alive, And well, he's saying that's not her wish, that she did not want that, you know. So I remember people talking about that like, well, if he doesn't want to keep her alive, then just divorce her.

Let her parents keep her alive, you know.

And he really felt like this is not humane and not what the right thing was.

And then that's that whole argument, like what is what is humane?

So now it's March twenty fourth, she's been off the feeding tube for six days. Judge Greer denied a petition for intervention by the Florida Department of Children and Families DCF and signed an order forbidding the department from taking possession of Terry or removing her from hospice, and he directed each and every single sheriff on the in the

Judge, they would have had a clash.

So eventually, I believe about thirteen days after her feeding tube was removed, Terry Schivo did pass away at the Panelis Park Hospice March thirty first, two thousand and five, at the age of forty one, much like in the episode. The autopsy which happened on April first, and it revealed extensive brain damage. Her brain weighed half of what a woman's brain her age should weigh. The persistent vegetative state was completely confirmed. The medical Examiner John R. Thogmartin said

But also, like what evidence of bolimia hold for what fifteen years at this point?

Yeah, that's true because usually it's like tooth decay and stuff like that. I don't know, I really don't know. At this point it's been fifteen years. I mean, this is why this is.

I didn't realize how high up president flying around signing bills.

This really was yeah, crazy, So Chief Medical Examiner thog Morton wrote in his autopsy quote missus Shivo suffered severe anoxic brain injury, the cause of which cannot be determined with reasonable medical certainty. The manner of death will therefore be certified as undetermined. So the cardiac arrest is the inciting health incident, but then her cause of death is kind of undetermined, even though it's like she just her body stopped functioning. And then on June twentieth, the cremated

And I don't know.

I don't know what her parents wanted to happen, Like I guess doctor said she could have lived another ten years on a feeding tube.

I don't know for what to visit. Yeah, so you guys get to visit. These parents seem annoying as fuck, but I get it. Yeah, but he obviously cared for her. He could have had money throughout all of this time. He could have divorced her and been like, fuck off, I'm taking the million, Like I do trust him. I don't know, Yeah, I'm just what you've told me. Just like, look looking at the facts that I just heard. Fuck the Republican Party, and Michael seems like a good guy.

Yeah, I mean, this is like what I'm finding out later. I definitely think back in the day when it was a punchline on late night shows, it was definitely like there was something sinister about Michael Shaibo. People were like, ooh, he's trying to kill his wife, and it's like when you actually get the dates in front.

Of you and you're like, no.

He traveled with her to California to try to get experimental treatments done for her. In the first few years

Yeah, yeah, well.

I'm glad I could tell you about it, and now we have a really great guest.

I'm excited about it.

Well because I also, yeah, we obviously have a good guess. We always do not to be two cocky. But I wonder if the movie Kill Bill like changed people's minds or like if that kind of motivates people's decisions.

You know, I still haven't seen it. I don't even know what you're talking aout. Oh I forgot, I forgot huge touch well, like is there a right to die issue? And kill Bill? I gotta watch it. I gotta watch it. You're about to kill me, all right, I would be happy to watch it with you.

But yeah, enjoy our guests, everybody.

Okay, guys, listen.

I know that we use the word legend a lot on this podcast, but we just I don't know what to tell you. We just get a lot of legends who want to talk to us, and today is no exception. This actress has been working since she was a child in little films by directors, you know, new directors that maybe you've heard of Alfred Hitchcock. She was in the movie The Birds, The Children's Hour, and perhaps you've seen her in horror classics like Alien or Invasion of the

Yay, Veronica, huge deal. This is a huge deal for us.

Thank you.

Well, you know it was funny because I looked it up on Hulu and I found it. I found the show, so I actually rewatched it again because there was so many years ago that I did it.

Oh my gosh. Yeah.

A lot of our guests today that they're like they they never watched it the first time.

They came out because a lot of people hate.

To watch themselves, and then they're like, we want they got to rewatch it for our podcast. So we hope you we gave you a nice trip down memory lane.

Oh except what was I thinking? Was my hair?

That's absolutly big for me.

Our first question is chunky blonde highlights? Was it you or wardrobe?

Oh? Now, you know it was the thing I went through. I don't know I got a lot of work that way. I think I have no idea what I was thinking is a little awful.

I think I made you look kind of though, like a little bit like eccentric and probably made you stand down.

Oh you know, it's probably was a smart idea for.

Kelli was of the time. I had chunky highlights. You know, that was what we did.

Yeah, I mean it was what was it two thousand and seven something like that. Yeah, yeah, So I guess it was just a thing that we did.

I mean, and then while watching it, are there before we ask our questions? Were there any like memories or feelings that came to you while watching the episode?

Well, the girl, the girl who plays my daughter, Tina Holmes, is a terrific actress, and so it was really great to work with her. And then a couple of years later she played my daughter in Cold Case as well, so it was like a reunion. And then I think I was blonde, just you know, change up.

So I wonder if I saw your SVU and saw the mother daughter chemistry.

I doubt I did that very much, but it was was I was gad I rewatched it because I hadn't realized it was actually a murder case that he had murdered my daughter, making her while she was anorexing and then of course having alcohol poisoning and going after her because of that, so him because of that. It was a very sad story.

It's really really sad.

It's sad to think that you can just meet or date or befriend one person and they can truly change your life for and for the worst forever.

It's just absolutely because she totally loved him, and then and then he would just he was just he was a dog. Yeah, he really was awful his character, but he was a great, great guy to work with. Oh, Superman, but no, it was really an interesting twist, I thought so. And then he ended up of course being such a nasty person. Yeah, and and it was so.

Cruel to her, and everyone's saw it, and she just could she didn't see it.

Well, how many people do we know? You No, don't date this guy who's really not a cool guy. Oh but I love him. Well, tough shit, I mean.

I know, and people so many people just don't heed their friends and families advice even though they're the people that know you the best.

So it's I know, you know, you know you go with your heart.

Yes, I guess a lot of people lead with their heart.

One of the scenes that I was really curious about filming is when you are with Tina Holmes and she's on the respirator and she's like blinking but slowly.

How was that filming with the blinking? Yeah? How was that filming? The hospital?

Well, well, you do believe. I believe that when you see blinking, your first initial reaction would be that you would think that they were alive and breathing. And they are breathing, but they're on all of these tubes and stuff like that. But it's it must be very, very disconcerting to have to pull your kid off of, you know, life support when they look so normal.

Yeah. Yeah.

A friend of mine's father went in for he broke his hip. He was ninety four, so, but he broke his hip totally with it. Guy. This is a guy that used to work out and everything, and he had a stroke apparently when he was under the anesthesia. But he was breathing by himself. His color was good, he looked totally like himself, and the doctor was screaming at him, and they'd go and they'd scream at him. To thinking maybe and he lived like that for a week. He

You were doing the scenes where you got emotional cry the tears, were you thinking of this case or do you go to or like, yeah, are you within the character?

Do you have to think of your own personal kind of Oh.

God, no motivation. No. I actually learned a long time ago when I did the bird watching, just like a handy work and being drug around the house with the birds flying down. And you know what, if you just lived in the situation and make it real. I mean, how many times can you think of a dead dog? I mean, it just doesn't work. You've got to listen, you know, you have to listen to what the other character's saying and live in the moment.

I just find it so impressive when you can do like that restrained crying, Like I bet I could get myself to cry, but I'd probably just work myself up. But you just like when they tell you, hey, it turns out he wasn't lying. She did say she didn't want to live in a vegetative state. You just have this one tear that pops out onto your cheek. It was like, really, really great work, Well.

Thank you.

I just don't know how you do this, like a strain thing where you let one little tear squeak out.

Well, I didn't think of it as being but I was quite impressed with that too. No, it's so weird because I heard when I was like fifteen or sixteen years old that Catherine Hepburn used to be able to cry from one eye or the other eye, And I said, oh my god, how does she do that? And I would practice in front of the mirror, you know, And I guess it is that you could do a muscle thing. But it's just not the same as if you just are in the moment and you have to make it real.

Have you ever, You don't have to name any names, but curious if you've ever been acting across from someone that's just not bringing it at the level that you would like them to be bringing.

And how you deal with that?

Well, what can you do? I mean, you can always find something you are getting from the other person. I think I have never been haven't happened to myself, though I do know that it has happened to people. I remember Richard dreyf was telling me that he was doing the same with that somebody just they were just not doing anything. So he said the mixcuse me, could you just stand over there to the right, I'm getting more from the brick wall. And I mean I always thought,

Well, then the flip side of the of the crying, maybe not the flip side, but a different, a different part of this episode where you got to do what we consider one of the high honors of that being on an FBU episode, which is a courtroom outburst.

You got to do that. Amazing. So how was that?

I can't you.

Got a scream bastard?

That's on television in two thousand and seven. Maybe it was right after what's his name showed just butt on Hill Street Blues.

You remember that that was a big you mean.

You mean Dennis frans on Blue.

Yeah, when he took his pants.

I was such a moment.

A huge, huge moment. I mean, so maybe this was a bastard. Oh my gosh, I was really daring.

Yeah, I mean Therery was.

He was bare face lying. He was just making stuff up. As far as I was concerned, I didn't know that she had witnessed this accident, and as far as I was concerned, he was making it up so that he could unplugg her. And I never had a good feeling about him, so I don't know. I just sort of made it easy. It was nice to work with Terry Garth.

Oh, I was to ask you, she's like a lesson.

I know she. Terry and I did a show years ago together and with Michael Uh Mike Ferrell, and he was accused of being of molesting children and we have this like little seven year old daughter and it was totally false accusations. But she played the lawyer that was or the newspaper person that was coming and questioning. Well, I opened up the door and I looked at her and the two of us started laughing. It was just absolutely horrible. We couldn't get three lines out without bursting

I thought, Wow, it's good to know that US few was ahead of their time in being able to accommodate everyone, everyone to be able to work at their best abilities.

That's nice to hear about that kind of thing. Yes, And I don't know was it a connection.

Did you meet Neil bear on er and then he reached out to do this part or these non c these do not connect.

They probably don't.

There's so much r as vu that we always assumed that Neil Bher was just kind of plucking people from the er days.

Danny just loves good actresses.

He's always when we talked to him, it seems like you'd be someone he was obsessed with.

Oh good, yeah, remember.

That woman you were obsessed?

Well another person famously, we saw that your sister acted. Did you guys ever act together? And then while you guys were acting, were you competitive? Were you supportive? How was it both being like stars?

So young?

Well, Angela was three and a half because we emigrated here from what we were born in England and then we emigrated to Canada and we were in Canada, but my dad always wanted to come to America, and for some reason, Los Angeles, and so we drove across country and we moved into an apartment in El Segundo, and my dad was a technical artist, and it was across from Rocket Dyne. Actually that particular place was across from

One of my favorite of all time.

I was a movie too.

Yeah, that was a big thing.

In high school. We read it and it was just it kind of changed my life in a way.

That show. It means a lot to me.

Well, it's interest. I went to a high school and they showed the movie and we discussed it. So that was kind of interesting.

Because you were in it the movie that they showed. Yeah, yeah, it's why.

Yeah, because it was one of those things you know that came up to and they asked me if I would do it, and I said sure, that'd be great. So we watched the movie and then we discussed it afterwards, which you know, it was really sort of ahead of its time, I mean talking about lesbianism. I mean, people were so uptight. What did they do that in nineteen sixty sixty one We did that movie and people pulled their kids out of doing the movie once they found out what it was about, and it was just weird.

Yeah, she sounds like she was very progressive.

Yeah, later on.

Well, also, your character in the Children's Hour is named Rosalie, which is my daughter's name, and I love that little connection. Yes, but can you so tell us about working with Alfred Hitchcock. I mean, was that we've never been able to ask you, We've.

Never thought we would ever ask anyone on our podcast A Hitchcock.

Well, do you know? Well I was twelve and I thought he was just terrific. He never was intimidating to me. I mean, I guess Tippy had an entirely different relationship with him. But I was twelve and I asked him the questions. My first meeting was a request to meet him in his bungalow at Universal Studios. And I had already done two or three Alfred Hitchcock TV shows, but

Yeah, most people can't say they've had those kind of experiences. Do you have any other stories from the Birds that you'd like to share?

On my thirteenth birthday, they threw me an entire cast and crew birthday party, which was a total surprise and huge, big cake, and Jessica Candy gave me a sweater and Tippy gave me at a love Birds and I used to sit and have tea every afternoon with Alfred Hitchcock At four o'clock. Everything shut down for half an hour while he would sit and have his tea and gather his thoughts, and so I would do that with him.

Do you still have any of those?

I do tibal paper and I actually lent it to the Hollywood Museum. They were doing a whole thing on Alfred Hitchcock and stuff. Yeah, I mean it's it's you know, and I've never been a great one to save a bunch of stuff, so that was nice. I did. I saved for ages the pod from Invasion of the Body Snatcher, but it moved from like three different houses and somewhere along the line it disappeared.

And that was sad.

I really liked that.

Paul, You've done so much. I conic horror. You know, You've been in such important things I have.

I have been very lucky being but you know it's the parts too. I mean, I've been lucky that and it seems a lot of the time. I am the sort of savior. I am the smart one. If anybody listened to me when we did Alien, we'd be fine. I mean, I did not know that I was going to get, you know, whacked by Donald Sutherland of the end of Invasion of the Body standards. I was told one thing and then still told them Donald a different thing.

Well, I was going to ask you if there are any roles that you're still dying to play, and maybe it's just somebody who people listen to. Maybe you get to make the big suggestion and everybody goes, you're right, and then.

They yeah, that's it. I don't know if there's I mean, I love working, so yeah, I'm just I think I've been able to play some really terrific parts. And there's movies that haven't been that good or nobody's ever seen, and sometimes I think it's some of my best works. I don't know, you know, it's like, but that's okay. I mean I feel good about that.

Well, I saw you kind of semi recently in one of my favorite shows, the audience of this podcas Cast Knows, I talk about the show all the time.

But I love.

BOSH and you were like, a that was such a like terrifying storyline that you were in, And I was like, like, your character doesn't.

Come to a great end, but you love working on BOSH with that scary scary man.

Oh yeah, he yes, I mean, and it was really a great part. I mean, I couldn't believe in those glasses, those horrible glasses, and I had to wear that. I couldn't see it, but they had sort of give me a little guiding put things onto like the table, follow it to the end of the table, and then make a beeline to this other daughter over here because I couldn't see a thing out of those glasses. So but she was a She was a fun character. You don't get to play the often. And Wolvers is just great.

And he's an SBO alum. He's been on multiple episodes of SBU oh yeah.

Because you know a lot of times they won't rehire you for stuff. It's like I did a Closer and then they did that continuation of the Closer that with Mary McDonald and I loved that show, so I thought in the part came up and they wouldn't hire me because nine years earlier I had done a closer with dark hair.

H what a stupid rule, beautiful stupid doesn't follow that, They'll they'll probably have you back, keep your phone, keep your phone closed.

I watch it, I do. It's so funny because I didn't watch it. I watched some of the other stuff. But she's wonderful. Marishka Haggerty. She is. She's a real character. She's just down to earth. She's really funny. And you know she likes her Shapsburg chocolate.

Oh we've never gotten that little bit.

Yes she does. She has to have a couple of chunks. But I thought she was terrific. She's great. I mean, the whole show is really a good show.

Yeah. I wanted to ask you.

So, this is like a thing that I just read in your Wikipedia and then I confirmed it that you're on the cover of the Scissor Sisters album I Don't Feel Like Dancing, which is a favorite song of my daughters and mine that we listened to all the time together. And I was like, no way, how did you get involved with the Scissor Sisters.

I love them.

I had always paid for you know, a certain amount of five dollars a month or something so that my telephone will not be listed. This was my home phone. Well, I get paid for it for years, and then I get this call one day and it's Jake Shears and Jake he goes, Hi is this roundic? Who is this? And he goes, oh, well, I take shares im with the Scissor sisters, and please don't hang up on me. I'm not a stalker. I said, well, how did you get this number? He goes, I just looked it up in the directory?

Oh my gosh.

And I called up and I said, well, why am I paying all this money each month for all of these years to have an unlisted phone number? And but anyway, so he asked me if I would do the cover of their you know, it's the elevator one. We all come out, and I said sure, And it turned out to be Rocky Shank who did the photography, and they dressed me and Armani and then they had made a long gray way and we drove around in a taxi cab and they took pictures. I mean, I had so

I love it. That's so I like.

I mean when I read it, I was like, I'm gonna look this up. And then I zoomed in I saw you. Yeah, I was like that there she.

Is very very elegant. Yes, really fun.

You look like yeah, you look like a cult leader or something, just like very you know, like beautiful, long gray hair and like yop.

It was.

It was really fun to do. And then I stayed in touch with Jake. I'm good friends with Clinton and Loop who's Cocco. Yeah, and so Rocky Shank and Cocoa and I went to see the Scissor Sisters at a pop up show in Santa Monica.

Oh my god.

I heard about it because Rocky stayed in touch because of the music end of it, because he did he did Adyl's first video and stuff like that. So the three of us went to the show. It was so cool. I mean, they were just so they're so great. And afterwards we were walking around, this guy comes up to she goes, you are my favorite actress. I just love you, I said, David Groll. Oh cool. I mean, my girlfriend is so jealous. That that happens.

I love that you're friends with Coco Peru. That's amazing.

I cannot even I like Google to make sure I was right, and then I was like, oh my.

Yeah, well I met her doing a movie called Straight Jacket, and which is a hysterically silly movie. Richard Day did this movie is and I talked like that this little black Wigan and I talked about Jane Russell and everything's a mile a minute, and I'm the agent of the well, every person who was gay in the movie played a straight person, and everybody who is straight plays a gay person. And she plays this woman that's supposed to be married

I didn't know if maybe you met Coco because you played did you play Jack's.

Mom on Will and Grace?

Uh huh, yeah, so, and Coco was always on Will and Grace in and out.

So yeah, well I thought I would do more too. That was very show. And you know, it's so weird because I replaced somebody on that show, so I had I had the Monday, we read the bread through of the script and on Tuesday they took my measurements for wardrobe. I did wardrobe. I had a lady following me around, a script supervisor following me around so I could get all those words because we shot that night on Tuesday night. I mean it was like so quick and such a turnaround.

Oh my god.

And I had a ball on that show. It was really fun. Yeah, and I really thought that they'd have me back because most people thought Agents of Three shows because there were so many parts to that one particular episode. Yeah, they never And then they started bringing me back and he was supposed to be shaving his legs and I'm doing a pod thing, but they never did it. So it was a shame.

Well, you only were you only worked on about seventy thousand other projects after that.

Well, one of the other things we have scary movie too. The scary movies were meant a lot to me, so while you were shooting.

My God, you had very strange choice. A scary movie too. My audition for a scary movie too was insane. I had to go up to this building, it's a very old building, is a beautiful building on Highland and Hollywood Boulevard, and go into a room and sing Hello Dolly at the top of my lungs and oh my god, nice and they kept saying louder, bigger, bigger, louder, and here I am hello. I mean, it was just absolutely insane.

Have you ever been starstruck?

You've worked with so many people as anyone ever made you like, Oh my goodness.

Well, I'll tell you. Shirlie McClain. Actually she was ended up being my mentor sort of. She was so terrific to me when we were doing the Children's Hour, and she would give me little tips. She would say, Honey, don't don't lose your tears on off camera, Stone, wait until the camera comes on you, otherwise you know you won't be It was like all these odd tips when I did the breakdown scene, which it was a bit cruel, I think, to do to an eleven year old, is

So I saw she was.

Doing the one woman show over on Wilshire Boulevard. So I decided I was going to go see her. So I watched the show and it was fantastic. And then I went backstage and I can I see Shirley McClain and are you on the list? I said, no, he goes well, I said, would you just tell I worked with her years ago, would you just tell her for Ronnie the Cartwrink next thing I know, the guy goes, well, she will see you. And I walked in and she goes, honey, I have followed your career and I went, oh my god,

She's so funny. I love her.

Yes, Payton to keep your name out of the Yellow Pages iconic.

Yeah, I love these badass bitches we get to talk to who've really just been working, working, just work fun, you know, self aware, knew her highlights were wild. It's it's nice, yeahalented, hard working, badass yeah an episode, yeah, definitely, and have good crime.

I didn't know what she looked like.

I can't believe it was so high up that the president was involved in last minute pluggings and unpluggings of like one believe mcwoman in Florida.

It's kind of wild, you know.

It's like, I just think back then, the issues that the Republicans would like latch onto because they knew it would like invigorate their base were just like not as now we know what it is now we know it's like, oh, guns and you know whatever drag, you know how drag is killing children and all that, like it's so obvious.

But this kind of thing, I don't.

Know, this right to death argument was in the conversation, but not necessarily maybe it was our age, but not necessarily something we would know about.

No, it was like a walking punchline, I feel like from someone that's what I saw it at.

Yeah, I didn't know the downs and outs of the case.

A lot of things that are punchlines, like Monica Lewinsky and you know, all these we've learned later are not like the way Amber heard is a punchline right now. It's kind of like I think in five years people are gonna be like that was fucked up.

Yeah, and I didn't realize how long he waited, like eight to ten years denying money, Like I don't know why anyone thought he was.

A shady dude, I know. But overall a great episode.

Unfortunately, the episode people call the Dean Kine episode, it's the.

Dan Kane episode. Dane episode forever. This is what it is.

It's like the all like this group like a Dean Kane and all the other people we talk about that become like right wing lunatics. It's men that were on their journey to become successful and then didn't become as successful as they wanted, and then they blame everyone, but they're themselves right, or they can't just like be fulfilled with their lives.

And I fail that in comedy.

Like any of the dudes that become like super alt right lunatics, they always they're just people that like are not where they want to be in their career. And that's how I feel with Dean Kaine's ass. But change your attitude. There's a s few episodes that's the Dean Kine episode.

You're doing great.

I don't get it. And would you say, Sabato Junior. They're all in the same camp.

Yeah, Scott Beao.

They all have better versions of themselves out, you know what I mean, Like we don't we have Tony Danza.

We don't need a Scott BeO And he didn't realize that. You know, we don't need a junior.

We have a what the fuck's his name? Antonio Banderas. You know what I mean? Like, we don't different Antonios. Yeah, so get your personality right. We have better versions of.

You or Ricky Martin. Antonio Banderas and Ricky Martin. We're both soap guys. Look is so good. It holds up anytime it comes up anywhere. It's like a It's like I would see him. I would see him in concert too.

I bet it's a baby.

That's what you learn people that are so successful for decade. It's gonna be a good show, whether you like or know the music or not. Yeah, because when I did that Papa Roach Cruise, I was like, wow, Papa Roach, Pat, that's pretty good.

These are Roach Cruise. Oh my former sister in law was probably on that. Okay, I didn't know someone got divorced. Oh yeah, Jared's brother.

Oh yeah, I was just thinking of your siblings.

Sorry, yeah yeah, yeah yeah, not on my side.

So far, everyone's held it together.

And again, if Colin Klink is listening and any of your friends like get dumped Anita plus one, I would attend your wedding.

I'm gonna put it out here first.

You and Rachel are both like happy they get the wedding.

I don't need an invite, but if someone drops out, I don't know.

If someone drops out and you've got a steak that needs to get eaten.

She'll find your way. She'll find your way there.

So yeah, this episode post mortem, what have we learned? I mean, unfortunately, men like this are gonna prey on women like Cora, and I feel sad about that.

I'm like, you deserve better, and uh, it's it sucks that we were really on a roll.

I don't know why we brought why you had to bring it back down to the sadness of the episode.

We probably like recover. I thought we have the back like good. I didn't know.

I thought we should go back from my brother's wedding to the sadness of us for you.

But I don't know what else? What else? Uh?

Oh, we forgot one really funny detail. At the Backstreep Boy concert, I knew there was wine and beer. We had a great server and I just said, listen, we have any booze or what like premium cocks?

What do you have?

And he goes, we have absolutely no alcohol except you could take shots of fireball and that's the only shot that Kara takes.

So we were the only shot I will take is fucking fireball. And this is the only booze he has is cinnamon. Whiskey that I drink.

Yeah, so I got a couple of rounds of fireball whisky Fireball.

What did I say? I guess some tongue tie.

Calling it like firewater, And I was like, because there is like a new firewater, right, isn't that like canned?

Like firewater is something? It's like a can. Yeah, it might be a canned cocktail thing.

I also kept singing in sync instead of the Backstreep Boys, and I don't know why not during the concert, but in my head I have like it's fucked up.

I keep singing that. Oh.

Also, there's a backstreyp Boys song on DNA and the beginning of the song starts out where he goes, what am I the sex police?

Or what are you the sex police? Yeah, it's funny.

It's so good. It's called New Love and it makes me laugh. So I had to share.

Yeah, they were really proud of this album that they dropped in twenty nineteen, and unfortunately the world didn't really get to hear it because of COVID and the pandemic. So they were taking us back and definitely letting us know about it anyway.

Yeah, they really were pluged. This albums so hard.

Any other Backstreet Boy things, or should I should we dive back into the depression of the episode, or should I just move on to what would say could emerge?

I don't know.

It's just like it was nice being there. Yeah, and I knew the words to every song. Like that's fun, it's fun to sing along.

You know.

The fact that I don't I haven't listened to them regularly in a while, And like the fact that my brain is like like immediately is like fucked up, no wonder, I don't remember anything. My brain is filled with backstreep boillyrics from twenty years ago.

Yeah. Well, you also told me the story about how when you were a teenager, you came home from school for a video premiere that they used to do if you're a young person, they used to they used to premiere videos on like TRL and your parents had locked the house or something, and you just ripped the doorknob off the door or something and ripped a hole in your door to get into the house and watch them video. Yeah, that's wild behavior.

Well, I think what was wild for Kara was she was like, so did you get in trouble?

And I was like, I didn't. I don't really get I never got in trouble.

It was like my life would have been over, Like if you damage something in my house, you were in so much trouble.

Truly.

They came home and there was no doorknob in the back door. But I forgot my keys, and I had to see the video there was just.

Got your keys.

Oh my god.

I obviously tried to climb through the windows first, like I had a routine of when if I forgot the keys.

But they need to hide a key over there, all right, we need to hide a key.

Those communists, they would never trust a key outside, a key in a rock.

No fucking way. Okay, do your job, do the do it?

Okay, all right, let's get into what would Sister Peg do? Our weekly segment where we tell you, guys, give you an organization, a book, a link, something that can help give you more information about the topic that we touched on in today's episode. So today I'd like to point out the organization Death with Dignity, which is an organization

Kinds of things you can get involved in. If you go check out their.

Website, which is Deathwithdignity dot org and if you'd like to help out sign a petition, learn more, you can head to their website. And as always, that is going to be in our show notes for today's episode and all of our what would Sister peg dos are always in a highlight on our Instagram page that is called WWSPD.

Wow, you really said a lot of information and you did it well. Thank you and next week join us for Limitations, Season one, episode fourteen. Thanks for listening. We love you, see you live soon hopefully.

Bye.

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