Slaves w/ Dann Florek

Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on.

These are our stories done done.

Hello, Hello, Hello, It's me Kara Klank and I'm Liza Trigger. And this is That's Messed Up an SCVU podcast. And this is a big one. It's our tenth episode.

Yeah, you know what's up.

We basically are gonna recap an episode of that Law and Order SVU, then we're gonna do a deep dive into the true crime that was based on and then we're going to have an interview. And today's interview is, honestly, it's a barn Burner. So I think we should keep this intro short.

What does barn burner mean? I only know it from Big Business Huge.

Oh my god, it's just like it's gonna be. I think it's gonna rock you guys world. So, I mean, you've probably already seen our Instagram and know who it is, but we're gonna make you eight. We just wanted to say a couple of things. What do we want to talk about Lisa.

Well, I have a disclaimer in this episode, I do say fucking a lot, and it's because it's the fucking worst crime I've ever probably researched, and so I get you know, I don't have a great vocabulary, So that's where I know I say fucking.

I disagree. I think you have a great votecab. But I don't know if you're reverse to that F word. I don't know why you're listening to this podcast. But just keep in mind that Lisa, Lisa, Well I just said Lisa. Just keep in mind that Lisa will be saying that word quite a bit.

Did I tell you that one time I was performing and what's the blushi that's alive?

Jim?

He brought me up on stage as Leslie. You are so not a Leslie. No, no, no, not at all. But I will always remember that. And we also need to give a a reminder that Sister Peg today is very very important.

You're going to listen to this crime.

It's very heinous, very fucked up, and this man is actually up for parole in March because of COVID and early release, so we have all the information right to the parole boards. So just keep that in mind as you're listening that like this man might have a chance to be let out.

Yeah, and stick around to get our info about how to help us out with that.

And I know we need to keep this fast, but I do have to say I did post on my Instagram this week that I did see a coyote on my walk this week or a fox, I'm not sure, but it was very dangerous.

Also could have been a large dog or cat.

No one is really positive, No one is positive, but it was The story was harrowing. Lisa starts running like a serial killer is chasing her. It was it looked like the opening of an SVU. It literally looked like, Hey, guys, what's going on? What's that up ahead? Character starts running, phone drops cut till Livia Benson like standing over the body.

And honestly, anyone that didn't reach out to me not my friend anymore? How dare you watch that and not text me?

Wait?

I had to fast forward the stories to find out what happened.

I was just like, I can't watch this in real time, like it was stressing me out.

Anyway, speaking of stress, we also just want to give a trigger warning at the top of this episode. This is a this crime is truly a very very brutal and yeah, just if anyone you know, just to keep in mind. Obviously we always talk about upsetting stuff on this podcast, but just a little extra trigger warning for you today.

And then it is Black History Month.

Happy Black History Months everyone, and we wanted to just give a couple of res of black conceived and starring shows.

And media that we love. I mean, I am.

Obsessed with two shows both on HBO, one called I May Destroy You. Or if you live in the UK, I guess this is probably available to you a different way because it is a British creator. It's called I May Destroy You, one of my favorite things I watched all last year. And then obviously Insecure I think is like the modern Sex and the City. But honestly it's it's a little I don't know, it's different and better.

It's more relatable.

I have watched to show that I'm like, this is this is my friend Grip, Like I don't, I feel very related to the characters. And there's a fellow comedian who's fully nude and we see his ass and that was thrilling.

Yeah, shout out to Langston Hermann.

Oh yeah, and.

Reggie, I was singing Reggie, I forgot we see Langston's Ass too.

So many butts.

And then I wanted to shout out two movies that I haven't actually seen yet but are on my list and I want to see asap. One is already available on Netflix called Maul Rainey's Black Bottom. I've heard nothing but amazing things about this movie. And another is written by two of our friends, the comedians, the Lucas Brothers, and it's called Judas and the Black Messiah, which I believe is if it's not out, it's coming out in

Amazing And now I'll do my list. This is it's very fun. I feel like I want a Glamour magazine. So my favorite Instagram account that I'm really obsessed with right now is called Embracing Black Culture, and it's just memes, videos, funny things, just fun. I was reading about how like black History mounch shouldn't just be about like trauma and watching things about you know, enslaved people. You can have a good time and watch bad boys and so embracing black culture is great.

Also, I love Pat McGrath.

She's a makeup artist and she's probably one of the best makeup artists to ever exist. And her makeup is very expensive, but she's very cool and so you can follow her and look at her cool looks. I do have her lipsticks, no big deal pre pandemic of course. And then this wasn't on my list because Insecure was on my list. But Langston Kerman has a podcast called My Mama Told Me and it's about conspiracy theories. And then I want to give a shout out to my

I am very cultured and.

Hadestown won seven Tony's and when I saw Strange Loop, I went Hadestown, who like it meant nothing to me anymore. And you obviously can't go see it, but you can get the soundtrack on you know and listen to.

The music, and you can follow Larry on Instagram and I'm sure when the world comes back he'll be doing something awesome with the show.

And Michael R.

Jackson, who wrote Strange Loop, won the Pulitzer, So it's a Pulitzer winning musical and it's so fucking good.

Awesome, And now let's get on with the show, all right, let's get into Slaves, episode twenty two of season one. This is the season finale of the first season.

Yeah, I'm excited to be in season one, but also horrified. Like a lot of episodes, I feel like I keep saying this and I will continue to say this throughout the podcast, but this one is haunted.

Me for Yeah, this one is wild. So lets everybody strap on. I mean, I don't we don't need to say trigger warning. You should know that this whole podcast is a trigger warning. There's like a ton of horrible shit in this episode, but we're going to try to make it light and fun for you.

And just over re knows.

Benson has shoulder length hair with Rachel's style layers.

Yes, and it's dark like it's probably the closest to her natural hair color. Like it's very dark, and it's like before she started kind of doing like the tanning that she does. I mean she has a little bit of a bronzer on now all the time. Right, she's very pale, like light pale at the beginning.

I don't I actually don't remember. I okay, I'll yeah, yeah, just agree Lisa. So she's pale.

Yes, okay, So everybody this when you when you start this episode. This is the episode where they all get a psych evaluation and they're pissed.

Yeah, there are starts.

Dare you say, find out if we're competent and able to work?

Yeah, but how dare you care about our mental health?

Like, so that's where this episode is twenty one years ago. Definitely not treating mental health the same as they probably would.

Yes, the psychologist is Broadway legend Broadway star Audra McDonald.

Yes, a legend. She is a psychologist that is evaluating all them. So that's a runner throughout the show that we'll keep checking in on. This is pre iced Tea, So it's Benson, Stabler, Munch, and Detective moniqu Jeffreys played by Michelle Hurt. So she was in the whole first season. So basically the cold open. A fruit vendor comes into

His wife made.

Its, As so many things happen in life, the wife makes the man do it.

I just can you even imagine a woman comes to you to store crying desperate for help, one name on a page and your mother tongue and you were like, I'll forget about it.

Yeah, she's probably pranking me, Like I just can't this am I on put cannon camera, like come on. So the cops go to see this woman Constanta could Rescue.

She completely denies knowing this woman.

At first she's then she's like she's my niece, but we're not close. And then she says her name is Elena could Rescue. She hasn't seen her in three years. She came to New York on a student visa. Now they're calling it NYU. I realize kind of at the beginning that they're probably allowed to refer to NYU if it's just someone coming to the city to go to NYU or like, oh, I'm a I'm an NYU grad, Like they can say that they can't have like rapes and murders take place there.

That's why they happen at Hudson University. That's amazing, amazing little tidbit.

Yeah, I think that's what I think we'll have to ask like a writer or producer once we get one of them on this On this pod, Benson gives constant to her business card, like if you come up, if you think of anything else, call me, And we find out that she never showed up. This girl never showed up. Elena never showed up to NYU at all. So meanwhile, Craigan is getting grilled by Yes, Broadway Legend, Dodger McDonald literally in my notes also so Broadway Legend and caps.

That's a classic.

But it's okay, you're carrying lumber, you're washing a dish, but to make bloon animals NonStop? Yeah, talking about an endangered woman is that's that's it's a nice standard.

For season one. And he's like yeah, scenes are like he's so New York. He has seen Elena.

He says she's a nanny, but he also said that she seemed like totally fine. Meanwhile, the cops get a call that a body's been found off the Henry Hudson.

Parkway, the West Side Highway.

Shout out to my old highway, and the body has Benson's card in their pocket.

It was rolled in a rug and thrown out of the car.

I mean Henry Hudson's like a very busy highway. I don't know how you just like stop and throw a body off the side. But okay, maybe in the middle of the night. Is it always possible? It always has people on it. I've taken I've been taking cabs like bombed home on that highway for sure. But the body is Constanta, the person they have literally interviewed earlier that day. That's a pretty quick turnaround.

I also have an issue with this scene. They like try they pry her jaw open. Well, yeah, that's the next scene. Oh the folly artist gotta was really working hard. They they I don't understand why we needed to hear as the jaw gets creaked open.

Yeah, So Benson is Stabler go to the medical examiner, which, by the way, this is pre Tamratuni and the medical examiner is Lance Reddick, famous actor from Corporate on Comedy Central from Bosh Love him, you love Bosh, I love I have Ah my god, I'm not I'm doing it. That's because everyone that watches Bosh is my parents' age.

But like it is. I like it because it's in LA and I get to like.

See a lot of LA. I like the Twists. It's fun watch the l word.

Hey, yeah I should. I absolutely should.

My best friend's been telling me to watch that forever. Happy birthday to hers today. Anyway, Warner doesn't join until season two. So we've got a cute, skinny young Lance Reddick and he basically is telling her something has stopped her heart. Only an injection would make that possible. But he can't find the puncture somehow. Benson is like, what about under the tongue? I don't know how she knows that. They never really explain it.

She's a great detective. Hey, yeah, but what in a medical examiner? No, to check under the tongue.

That's why Maybe that's why gets brought in second season, So because she rolls her eyes when it's there.

Yeah, she's like, yeah, I could have told you that. Yeah. Like, so there is a puncture woe under the tongue.

So this is where the jaw gets and so yeah, when he prize opened the jaw, Liza did not appreciate the folly work happening there. It's just this creaky, horrific noise that is making me like twitch right now. Yeah, we did not need an exactly an exaggerated jaw open noise. Well it stuck with you, didn't it. It did, so maybe the folly artist is going for an Emmy. So we find out that like Elena's father was killed also back in Romania. Munch gives us a little all Roads

And the thing is, I want everyone to be safe. I'm on the ant side.

You don't.

You don't trust an American business man anywhere.

Who's bringing you over to the United States for free out of charity?

No, no, no, no, we'll bring you to a free country for are a favor or because they think you're a cool girl.

Now, you know.

And you don't ever want to blame the victim. But and it happens so often, But because people are desperate and they want to be here. But do not trust an American that's trying to do something nice for free.

Yeah ever, yeah that's us.

Put it on a T shirt.

Do not trust an American trying to do something for you for free. So we get a quick we get a quick glimpse of Benson with the shrink. She admits she's the child of rape, which we've heard earlier in the season, and when the therapist asked her, what would you be if you couldn't be like a sex crimes detective, she's like at a loss and honestly looks like she's about to cry because there's like nothing else she could do, honestly, comedy. Yeah, I stay on a woman who knows her career path.

I think it's fine. I don't know why that's such a huge because.

They want women to have kids, you know, that's class Just like, why do you do this?

What would you have been a kindergarten teacher? Yeah?

Like what it's weird, So it makes it okay. So we're back at the lab. Constanto is found in a five thousand dollars rug. So that's like a little bit of a red flag right there. That's like, you know, no one's wrapping up victims in a five k Really, I don't know how much rugs cost. Well, the rugs in my house are four hundred dollars. I mean they're not a lot, but that sounds like a lot to make thousand dollars.

No, but a rug.

You're on it every day. It's supposed to last you for years. You know, five thousand dollars. That's an expensive rug. They find one hair in the rug.

They go to Air Bucharest, not a real.

Airline, and find Elena's flight from three years earlier when she arrived, and the person that purchased it for her was named Randolph Morow. Okay, they go to his They go to the house of him. They find Elena. She is acting like cool as a cucumber. Nothing's wrong. She's there with a kid. I'm the nanny. I gotta make dinner.

I don't know if she's cool as a cute ca Okay, there's an underlying of nervous. Yes. She's like, you're right, it must be ready. He's gonna come home. I have to clean. He doesn't like people here.

Yeah, lead, well, but you're also you know what happens in this episode when you're rewatching. I'm just saying like she okay, she's not cool on the cool of the cucumber scale.

She's like, listen, he's coming home at six. You can talk to him too. We're fine. I need to, you know, come cook dinners. Version of a Romanian nanny being cool. That's her your impression, Listen. She just was like, I don't know what you're talking about.

Everything's fine, like a little bit like that, but yes, you do, you do sense, like you sense that she's really nervous and wants them to get out of the house because she's gonna get in trouble if like they come home and dinner, yeah, and dinner's not ready. So Audrey McDonald brings up to the cops like, oh, she could have Stockholm syndrome, which we all know about Stockholm syndrome, and I get.

They explain it.

Expositive, like they do a full exposition on the show to explain what Stockholm syndrome is. But it's like four people in Stockholm were taken into bank robbery, kidnapped and like within six days they were like completely emotionally fused to their captor and like refused to press charges and testified it in their captor's defense.

Like, you know, I didn't know it was called Stockholm syndrome because of a stock in the place.

Yeah, Stockholm, Sweden. Yeah wow, Yeah, so that's where that came from. They talk about how the way you kind of get someone to submit to you is like threats of death and violence interspersed with random acts of kindness. So it's like you're you're dying for that person's like kindness and affection because their violent side is.

Stre there also become your lifeline.

Yeah, Like they're the reason you have food ever, right, or you have anything. Yeah, so your like love to them becomes an act of survival yeah, and not weakness.

Right.

So we see Munch's session with the shrink. He's making jokes about blow up dolls. I mean, you know, Munch is he's the least of the crew. Yeah, that's I would say, that's true. Yeah, yeah, you're right, You're right.

Over month, Munch.

Would just be like making weird jokes. I feel, Yeah, I think you'd have to be on top. I think it's like a lot of effort. You'd be like reading a book. But we do learn I'm sorry that Munch has been married multiple times, some beautiful, dumb spoiled women.

Yeah, we meet his wives throughout, Like Carol Caine plays one of his.

Wife, but she doesn't seem like a dumb, spoiled Yeah, she seems like I think they move away from the narrative a little as they introduce those wives later in the season. But I just love this unfuckable, melancholy like conspiracy detective getting like young twenty five year old dumb bitches.

I I just don't get it.

Yeah, And it's like, you don't have the money for those dumb women like they they're.

Gonna want more. Yeah, and that's probably why he ended up in divorce.

Anyway, Back at the Morrow's brownstone, the neighbors say that Elena has only been with the family for a year. They say that the wife is a vet and that the husband is a Wall Street guy. So now we finally get to meet Randolph Morrow. This guy who is the uh one who bought Elena this ticket? It's Andrew McCarthy, classic actor from a lot of movies. I grew up with Weekend at Bernie's.

Like a comedy, and in this he is stands up on my a.

Yeah, but I've actually seen him in a stage production of A Long Day's Journey in Tonight. He's like a dramatic actor, so I think that he's very well like New York theater a little bit too.

And that's like, oh, I hope he's not as evil as he portrays. I hope act I mean you sense evil and vicious from his immediate moment on screen.

Yeah, he definitely gives you a control freak psycho vibe, like the minute you see him, like he makes the he doesn't. Yeah, he doesn't like where Benson sits. He keeps trying to get her to move because she didn't sit where he wanted her to sit, like it's creepy. And then his secretary comes in and he does that whole what did we say about the blinds?

Like?

I hate like when someone talks to you like you're a child, you know, like even though I would never talk to a child that l Like, what did we say about the blinds? I'm gonna say that to my kid? What did we say about throwing our milk across the room? Trust me, it doesn't work. She does it every goddamn day,

They don't know anything.

So uh, Bentson on the way out plucks a hair right off his suit, just as like, oh, you got something there and plucks a hair. You have to have the root intact. So it's like a little crazy that he had a perfectly intact hair with a root follicle attached on his seat.

But I also feel like I'd be a bad detective because I thought she was just fucking with him because he's the order and just like to like him a little.

What it was, it was a double.

Also get evidence like that is why Olivia's That's why she's that's content.

Now, Yeah, it turns out Constunta was killed with something called I think they're saying bututhanasia, Like it sounds like euthanasia with a B in front of it, bututhanasia.

Oh we miss some maloney joke I want to say. In the office, he goes, when they're leaving, he goes, but the couch was comfortable she refused to sit on, So I thought that was.

You know, okay, So content was colesing called buthin asia, which is used to put animals to sleeve. So now it's not that hard to put two and two together that this man's wife is a vet. So they go see doctor Morrow. She is completely fucking zonked on pills. Like she just seems like a total like space case. She's very cagey about talking about Elena. She's like, we have our routine, Like she's just very not doesn't seem

He was a bad guy in House of Cards and I was still like, you get has that silly bald with the hair.

Around What is that called?

I always just call it like Bozo the clown, But his doesn't really like that because it's not fluffy.

But I don't know.

It's like, yeah, I think guys should just go completely bald. That this is a tangent, but you should just go completely bald ifyct same people.

Her heads are really oddly shaped and I understand their grasp for their hair, I guess anyway.

And also Michael Kelly later plays a guy who rapes women on a schedule to impregnate them.

Later in SVU, do you remember that episode now that you mentioned.

Yeah, these women keep getting visited by the same rapist on a calendar, and it's because he is like master race trying to impregnate like do eugenics essentially, and like breed mean.

Is I know you don't love when they bring people back, but this vetec could be the same person takes a complete turn.

Yeah they could, I guess we see jeffries in with the shrink. Now she's like really jazzed up about having a near death experience recently. She's like, this job basically ends in my personal life and I was celibate up until this incident where I almost died, And now she's like seeing a bunch of different men, and she volunteers a story about going home with a guy that she meets at a bar who she ohs was a suspect in a case recently, and.

They get mad at her for this, But like, if the person is found not guilty, anyone brought in, you can't date like a suspect. Like, yeah, I just feel suspect is a real broad thing. But maybe those are just the rules.

Yeah, maybe those are the rules.

Don't fuck suspects Also, if you couldn't fuck suspects, you literally couldn't fuck like anyone in New York. Yeah, so the Vetex shows up. He Michael Kelly shows up to tell them that, yes, doctor Morrow has been stealing buthan Asia from work. It's like, I guess because of being a veterinarian is a stressful job. Like they steal drugs a lot. Doctor Morrow. They get her in for questioning and she's like, sexuality is about reaching our limits and

They break in.

He's burning photographs that are like really graphic of torture, and they find a torture closet in the bathroom which is like just you know, a face mask and like shackles and all this.

They bring Marow in for questioning.

He is like, yeah, he's just like douche chills, Like he just really is like so creepy with how confident he is and acting like he's done nothing wrong. Olivia leaves so that Stabler can take a run at this guy. And I think it's notable how many times that happens, Like there are so many times throughout the course of this show that Olivia has to leave the room because being a woman is just aggravating the man so much, like just her being a beautiful woman. I think, who's

It doesn't mean there's a crime.

Doctor Morrow is in the hospital detoxing from a long ketamine addiction, and Benson and Stabler break her down by saying that her daughter could be the next victim.

Yeah, because we learned the wife was part of the torture, like she was abused.

Yes, And then she was like, the reason I allowed this is because it moved him off of me. And then the idea of him moving on to her daughter is so scary to her that she gives them information. Benson and Stabler are still interrogating Andrew McCarthy and they're like taking turns basically almost kissing him. They're like right up in his face and like he keeps moving his head side to side, and they're both right there with their mouths like.

Right next to him.

And he brags about how he controls Elena, how she doesn't eat, sleep, or urinate without his his say so, and then Stabler kind of messes with him a little bit and is.

Like, we force you to move her, didn't we? And he doesn't.

He smirks, so basically he's talking about her in the present tense, so we know she's alive and we know that she is probably in the house because he does not feel nervous about the whole moving Elena thing.

Yeah, and it's it's an arrogant smirk. It's this thing of like, oh you think I moved her, Yeah, I'm better than you and that and that's that's the hoisted by your own petard. And then that's the smirk that gives Stabler the recognition to be like, oh, never mind, yeah, we didn't.

Fucking yeah. It's amazing. You love that phrase, I because it happens so much.

I mean, that's like, it's the best way to describe it when your confidence is what brings you down.

So they basically rush back to the Morrow house.

They pull like a bunch of wooden like slabs off of the bed and pull out this coffin.

Where Elena is being kept under the bed.

She's like gasping for breath, and so they've rescued Elena.

So that's what's so heartbreaking of this scene.

So we realize she's been kept in a coffin, a box, wood box underneath the bed, and her first reaction is I was quiet. Tell him I was yeah, Yeah, I didn't make any noise. I didn't make any noise.

Tell him, I didn't make a sound. Yeah.

So we wrap up the episode with Stabler is in with his session with the shrink, and you know, he says.

You ever see a child with mils with no soul? I have? Okay, So that's just a little bit tough way to go out.

And he does say he thinks about killing the people who do the crimes that he sees every day.

So then the shrinks therapy is a witch hunt. Yeah. Yeah.

So we end with Alder McDonald going up to Craigan with her findings and saying everyone was mostly okay, but I have to recommend that one person be removed from duty immediately. They want you to think it's maloney because what he said is kind of crazy that he dreams about killing killers, but actually that's probably normal, and we find out at the first episode of the next season,

And what's wild is you know, it says it's haunted us forever, that box under the bed, But when even discussing the episode, we don't see the stuff, like even the whole talking it's not like we see her getting whipped and chained, and it's still something that's so horrific.

Yes, like horrific. She was under that bed for like that.

Well, also you have to think back to the fact that they said that she wasn't working for them until for only a year, So for the first two years he had her, he was probably breaking her down so that she would be able to nanny his kids and be out in public and not fully like turning her into a slave.

So that's like, so this is the episode.

It's like, what you don't know is what's the scariest, like because the actual episode is not the job being open. But yeah, it's not that graphic and it's not that violent. It's just like it breaks my spirit.

Yeah, well well, honeyway get ready, get ready to have your spirit broken. Even farther as Lisa takes us through the true crime that this was based on.

We'll be right back, welcome back.

This is an insane crime Colleen Stan And before I start, I want to say she is like the bravest, strongest human I've ever ever read about in my life, Like everything she's been through.

And then I watched the documentary Girl in the Box.

There's two p arts, and she goes back to the places where she was held captive. She goes back to the houses, she goes through everything she stood trial for three days, like said, everything that's happened to her. She has gone back to his parole hearings to speak like the fact that she has a life, a child relations. I mean, it is like truly amazing. So before I start, I just want to say Colling stan Is shout out, you're a Stan for Colleen Stan. Yeah, she's like incredible.

His last name is Hooker.

He is up for parole early in March because of COVID and they're trying to release popular like older populations for COVID.

And I hope this man dies. And so if you think this man deserves parole after you listen to this.

Yeah, well, put in our notes the way to contact the parole board and what to do to make sure that they don't release this man.

I don't think. I can't imagine the.

Judge when he was set in he said, I would like to say, I consider this defendant the most dangerous psychopath I've ever dealt with. So I don't think they're going to release him. But just the fact that he's up for parole in March and with COVID and I just don't I don't know.

Yeah, it makes me nervous. It makes me nervous for everyone. And I know because he is supposed to be up for parole again until like twenty thirty. Yeah.

Yeah, but walk us through what happened so that we've's dangerous, psychopathic Colleen.

It's the seventies. She's a spirit. She goes to live in Eugene, Oregon.

Beautiful part of the country. I've been to Eugene. It's gorgeous.

It's like a hippie central. I mean, she had kind of a show life. There was she said, average life. This happened in California. You know, there was a little bit of like she had a sister.

She had parents.

The parents were divorced, which mild drama. You know, she fell in love, got married, divorced really young, but nothing that crazy and whatever.

So it's the seventies.

She's in Eugene and she decides she want to surprise her friend for her birthday four hundred miles away, and she wants to hitchhike. And hitchhiking wasn't that crazy as it is now, and obviously is a dangerous thing to do, but it wasn't that wild of an option.

I think the seventies are the reason that people don't hitchhike now because everybody was just doing it willy nilly, and it's truly like just serial killers.

Just out fishing. Like yeah, and.

And I related to this, and it was like this could be met because I would want to surprise my friend for her birthday.

That's something I loved. You to take a megabus, You wouldn't hitchhike. Yes, I would take a megabus.

But I understand this, And what's scary is, well, we'll get to it, but the surprise element. And I remember one time I felt unsafe with a fret. A few of us on the train's platform and a man was being weird, and I made sure to keep saying, text the cousin, make sure she knows. There was no cousin, right, but we were like, make sure she knows we're coming, she knows we're meeting her. And then the guy we were with, fucking idiot, was like, what I thought.

We're going home. We're trying to.

Ourselves, but you know, you don't want any You want to make sure that people are waiting to know.

People know where you are and you're expecting you, because I bet they were like, what are you up to?

And she's like, I'm surprising a friend and that's like horrific, yeah, because it's.

Like no one knows that you were on your way was a surprise.

She There were two other offers to get into cars. One was like a giant group of guys and she's like.

No, thanks, thanks.

The other one was this couple and they weren't going far enough, so she's like, don't worry about it. And then this couple was a young man, a woman and a baby, so of course that seems safe. You know, it's a baby, a baby, and so it's an eight month old baby. It's a blue dodge, and so she goes, yeah, I'm going to get into this car.

This makes sense.

She did have an uneasy feeling. She wasn't feeling good. She saw him look at her in the rear view mirror. She didn't like it. And she kept rejecting those feelings. And she kept saying, they're nice, they're nice, shut up, shut up. And this is so important. I feel women do that way too much. I've done it and and things that aren't as important as this, you know, but well, actually a tattoo for life where you ignore your instincts and we're taught to ignore instincts or that were and.

Don't be rude. Yeah, don't be like make the make the situation like easy, like okay.

And she said they asked a lot of questions about her. She didn't say anything about them. I can see myself doing that chatting, chatting, chatting and not asking a question. So, you know, it's it's really hard to watch this and see how easily it could happen to so many different people, because I for sure can see myself just answering questions

She just doesn't understand why they're doing this to her.

Obviously, he marched her into the basement. He stood her up on something, and then he took off all her clothes and he handcuffed her wrists like Jesus' style, like on the hooks on the ceiling, and released the box from under her. So she is now suspended, suspending, and she said it's like the worst pain she has ever experienced. And she's just hanging there and he starts whipping her and she's crying. I mean, it's like, it's awful. I can't imagine being someone experiencing anything like that.

He told her to shut up and hang there.

She was always blindfolded, always gagged, always restrained in some way, and she never saw anything but the bottom of the floor for months, like only what she could see from the bottom of the blindfold.

She never saw anything.

And then one time she saw all these BDSM magazines and then the couple was like fucking. So while she's like in pain, suspended, they're like fucking and She's like, who the fuck are these people? And she said she was really naive, like she was twenty but she did feel naive. And I'm going to get ahead of myself for a little bit and just let you know she lived through this for seven.

And a half years.

Oh my god, they kept her captive for seven and a half years.

Just like if you're.

Listening to this now and you're like, holy shit, just that's what I'm saying, the strength of this woman, because it's really fucked up.

So the man is Cameron Hooker.

He's twenty three years old, Janie, the woman is nineteen years and they are married. They are and what we learn is later on that they started dating when she was fifteen years old, and so he did this to her, And I think that's I was thinking a lot about like statutory ray and like the age of consent and all of that, and I think that's why it's important.

Yeah, this is it's violence.

Never had a sexual positive experience, And that's why pedophile.

Like, that's why you groom young victory. That's like what this is all about.

How them do the things you like, no matter how to brave.

And that's why we're we have to be so protective of young people and predators. You know, he unhooked her, he put the head back in the box, He shoved her into a crate from the head down, chained her wrists and feet in the crate, and he just left her there. She was freaking out, and she just said it was so hard because all night she had to gasp for air.

Yeah, like she couldn't breathe.

And so I think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs in this way where It's like, all of a sudden, everything she's focused on is just survival, so she can't even think outside of anything besides, like, I need to breathe.

I need to breathe. They need to breathe.

And everything was so hard, and she was so exhausted by the time morning came, gasping for air. He removes her, puts her on the table, ties her. Und you know, there's just like a lot of torture happening. The friends really like the roommates are worried. The friend is worried. The parents haven't heard of her. So on the fourth day she's missing, the roommate's file a missing person's report. Days turned into weeks. The families, of course sad. The

And that's what happened.

And one time he put a knife to her throat and said, go ahead and scream and I'll cut your vocal cords. And God spoke to her in that moment and said, do not scream. He is telling you the truth.

Wow.

And so you know, I'm someone that doesn't really believe in God.

I'm like not into religion at all, and then hearing this story, it's like I thought about Bruce Almighty and everyone.

I don't know if anyone's seen.

That movie, but everyone wishing God stuff and wanting things, and it's like he's busy with people like this, and I don't know about like, if there was a God, why would he let someone be in this? But like listening her talk about her spiritual journey did really you know, not change my mind, but I understood, like what God is for, and it's for it's to help people out of situations like this and find the lights. So it's like, stop wishing for dumb shit, like he's busy. Yeah, that's

So she's just sitting yeah, like happily cracking walnuts like this is the life.

For months, months, I mean fucking months.

And then so January, we're at eight months in camp activity and the documentary goes and there's a darker turn and I'm like, wow, could it get darker?

What the fuck?

So basically this is where it does get darker. He invents. She doesn't know this, but he says, there's an organization called the Company, and it is a human sex trafficking slavery organization. They're giant, powerful underground. This is a contractor my slave for life if you try to do anywhere, go anywhere. The company will get you. You will get your family, They'll get your family. And she signs this contract to be a slave forever. It's kind of like

No, Oh my god, you gotta watch it.

Like they would basically be like aliens are coming and like we're the only ones that can stop it, and like it's not the same thing as the company, but it's like they got people really invested in this, like grand conspiracy, and was like you're part of it.

We need to do that, you know, Like, yeah, I was just thinking about it. Is it Cloverfield Lane with John Goodman?

I don't know?

That was a fucking that was there was a twitter that was.

A good movie. Whatever.

So she asks what happens if I don't sign it? And he said, I'm going to make you wish you had so, and she knew what he is capable of, and he signed it, and he gave her a new name and everything, a nightgown to wear, and he started letting her out to do chores. She was obviously looks sound speak when you're spoken to and that's it, sir master.

You know, it's like, ma'am. All of that. She ran away.

She believed that the company would catch her and nail her to playing some lever in the woods.

So she was very committed here.

What was weird to Colleen was Janice treated Colleen like she was the other woman. Like Colleen wanted to be there, like Janice was competing and.

Jealous and and and like not to if you're going to mention this, but like I know where exactly where you're going out.

Just they had a contract, They had an agreement together right about what he could do with her.

Yeah, basically like because Janie was his victim for so long and she was just tired, she said, go get another slave. But my post like fucking is just for me because basically it was like, if you get yourself another slave, I want another baby, Like you can fuck me and get me pregnant and you can beat this other person. So it was survival for her because obviously we hate this woman. Janis like, it's really hard not to. She's also abused. This is super layered and so it's yeah,

To God she wanted to get out of this.

And then the wife was super mad that their deal was not being upheld. Yeah, so he was really mad and the wife was even more mad. But he started raping Colleen when Janie was away or in secret or late at night, and he would make sure to always wear a condom to make sure that he did not impregnate her. So now we're at April, eleven months in captivity, he moves the family. This is where it becomes very

Yeah, Like you're just sitting there, thirsty and gasping for air for twenty three hours a day, under the sloshing of a waterbed of these of these monsters.

Yeah, Janice gave birth to their second baby on that waterbed. She heard all of it, and she said that he let her out to look at the baby and then put her back in the box. And she was saying, I mean, it's it's about she goes one smell, one moment, one sound, and I'm back there.

Yeah.

And there was a bedpan in the box and she had to like kick it up with her leg until she can hold it and then move it under her butt, go to the bathroom and then kick it back to her feet and then just be in the box.

Silent because he doesn't want any You can't hear about it anymore. I know, I'll stop.

It's really like I said, it's just so then she started taking care of the girls.

She started and this, you know, going out for jogs. So she's now she's allowed fully out.

Yeah, okay, now you know, jogs around the neighborhood, taking care of the kids. People said she's a living babysitter. Even the little kids had no clue. He'd sometimes take her out of the box and put her in the bathroom with a chain around her neck, and.

Again that was like a great vacation.

And he gave her a Bible then, and that really helped her and guided her so we will will fast forward march for four years in captivity, the abductor let her phone home and tell the family that she was visiting.

And this is the most power trip fucked up. This is what's.

Confusing to I'm sure everyone always why did you run away?

Why didn't you tell someone? Why didn't you? And later we'll meet the prosecutor.

But she's like, yeah, she's acting crazy, because who's not gonna act crazy after all?

Yeah, of course she's gonna not act normal.

How do you expect someone to act normal after going through all of this and the expectations we put on victims is so fuck But this is really fucked And this is what the defense used in evidence when we get to the trial. He dropped her off at her family's house overnight and left. She didn't say a word. Then that's how confident he was in his power over her. Woeaw, she took like photos with him, hugging, laughing. She yeah,

That was her boyfriend.

Yeah, and so that's why they took these romantic pictures together and the family. And the thing is the sister was like, the clothes look weird. She's lost all this weight. She knew this is again instincts, but the mom took her aside, and so stop pressuring her, stop pushing her.

She's in a cult, and what if she doesn't come back.

Yeah, so they wanted to play nice to make sure they could see her again.

Yeah.

And then even the dad is like, I can't believe I didn't write down the license plate. Right. If I just wrote down the license plate, we could have gotten her right there. Because after that visit, they didn't see her again for three and a half years. So it's just so fucked up. But she got, you know, at least she got to see the family. But she believed everything about the company, and they're obviously all upset that they haven't been able to see her, and then she thought the worst was over.

But no, he like didn't like.

That she got to see her family, and he locked her back into the box for like twenty three hours a day because he gave her too much power, he thought, so she was back to fucking being in a nightmare situation again, more freedoms. He started letting her sleep on the floor, he started letting her go to church, and

Him and goes, I'm not yours anymore, Like.

Go fuck yourself. I control my life, not you. He bawled like a baby.

She got on a bus and left, so he was crying, and She's finally free. The joy was overwhelming. She kept being like, I bet everyone on the bus can just see how fucking happy I am. But she feels foolish and guilty obviously, because like, how did I believe that? How did I let him do it so for so long? Why didn't I run away? I can't even imagine all the feelings. She moved in with her dad, but she refused to go to the police. She's like, I'm done, I'm back, I'm happy. I want to be living my life.

Jane inspect her too. Why didn't Janis just go?

She does fear of implicating herself because she was part of it exactly.

Oh, but she was like scared constantly. She went to work with her dad all the time. So three months later, you know, she's going to church, she's trying to date again. She gets a job cleaning Janice then takes the two daughters, leaves the guy she was crying and Janie goes to the police and she finally turns on him and this I know, it's like, how does this get worse? But she also admits that there's another victim.

Yes, well, one little thing was that at the very beginning of being in captivity, when she was in the coffin, like under the bed, they put a picture of this other woman who had been missing, whose body was never found there and said like, this is our first victim.

If you do anything, you're going to end up like her.

Right.

Well, I knew that the photo was there, but she didn't know what it. I didn't realize that they were that they told her. I think they told her.

I think that was like a deterrent, like don't don't go, don't try anything.

But there was Emily, Yeah, she said that, like like with the coffin and the panels, it's just so hard to understand. There was like her purse and then this photo of this girl. Now this is where it just saw, so Mary Elizabeth. They called her mar Liz. She went missing. He wanted to do everything the same. It's the same thing, the hitch hiking, the wood box, on the head all of that. But his plan was to cut her vocal cords so she wouldn't make noise.

Oh my god, she died, Oh my god. Okay, with this homemade surgery he wanted to do. And that's when it hit Colleen when he was like, if you make a noise, I will kill you, and God, being like don't do it, it finally hit.

Her like he's done it before. Yeah, but poor Marlz.

And the body has never been found, and you know, Cameron's not going to tell anyone.

He's riding in jail, like I said.

So, yeah, Janis tried to find where the body was, but like, it's just it's an expansive desert land. You know, it's fucking California off of a highway.

But oh are they were they in California. They weren't in Oregon anymore.

No, it's all in I'm sorry, it's Red Bluff, California.

Wow.

Okay, Yeah, and she's from Riverside, California. It's all California. Yeah, she was just in Eugene for a little bit of her hippie time. All right, So we can't find Marlz. You know, we don't want to make generalizations about all police on this show, but they fuck up a lot, and here is a situation that makes us frustrated and want to not like cops. They don't like that Janice Is. They're like one cop Legit was like she's a nutbag.

I don't know.

And that's why I get so mad when people ask victims like why don't you go to the police, And it's like because the police are mad if you're stressed. They don't believe you if you're not stressed, And it's like there's no way to be a perfect victim.

They always find a way to like fuck with you.

But they were just mad, and they couldn't really rely on Janie to be a good witness, but they gave her immunity and they gave her a deal in she was way more open.

But it came down to Colleen.

They needed Colleen to get this person because Janis is a fucking lunatic. Oh yeah, they said, basket case. The men are just like, she's a fucking basket case, we can't.

Put her on the stand.

And then when Colleen is on the stand in the future, the prosecutors like it just sucked because she was so calm, calm and collected and detached that the jury needs a little tears in anger to believe her. So it's like the cops don't believe you if you're hysterical, and then the jury needs you to cry or they don't think it actually happened to you.

And Colleen was very clear.

She goes, I knew I couldn't get hysterical because then I can't do my job, and my job was to explain every single thing that happened to me to put this motherfucker away.

So he's charged. You know, they go to jail.

Christine Maguire, she is the prosecutor, and she was the only female prosecutor in like all the fucking land, and thank god she got this case.

It just came on her desk. That's on dirty.

But she knew she had a lot of work against her, and one she had to prove that Colleen was really held against her will, because the defense was going to say she loved it. So the box was brought into the courtroom, and this is where I talk about her strength so much, where it's like all the device, the torture, everything was brought in and they blew up a giant

Like just looking at you can't even look at it, let alone be locked in at one hundred degree box for twenty three hours a day like in the keat. Yeah, I can't handle the shit that women have to go. I'm like almost a promise.

But the prosecution brought models and like volunteers to get into the box and just show how everything was used.

Janie does go on the stand.

She talks about how this is happening to her since she was fifteen years old. He hung her up while she was pregnant. No, and like did fucked up shit to her. It's just the most it's just like fucked up.

Yeah, you think the worst, worst, worst, It's like Ted Bundy and this.

Guy, yeah, and just thinking like, is there someone now that's like in a situation like this, and how do we protect people and how do we get these psychopaths out of the world. I don't know, but she was direct, cold and matter of fact and she needed to do that. But Christine Guire gets it, and we're so lucky she was the prosecutor.

She legit.

Is like what Christine understood was all of that emotion was beat out of her. She couldn't show emotions, she couldn't cry, she couldn't scream. So she got the ability to show emotion be out of her because that was for survival. And then the defense goes at her like you're a trollop, you were hitchhiking, you deserve this, you went with your fail you loved it, and they start being like you called him when you were free, and she did, She's fucked. She wrote him love letters. There

So I don't even know what kind of defense.

That even, Yeah, but Colleen said she was nervous. She was sitting there in the trial being like and can you also imagine how strong she has to relive this with him staring at her.

Well, and at one point a little thing I read about this they talked about how he was building an area in his house, like a basement or something to have more slaves. He wanted to have more slaves, and that was reminding me of Kimmy Schmidt, like that guy who told them you can't come out there's a comment. There's like, uh, there's a big comment coming towards the world or whatever, and you have to keep doing like

Which is pretty that's a big talent. Yeah, because you know we're where this is supposed to be like a fan fix show. But this is very hard to make a light of, you know. But she was so quiet during all this that the kids didn't even know she was in the house.

Yeah, can you.

I mean, we're both chatters. I mean I would, I don't. I think that's ever. Even the cops. Everyone in this documentary is like I couldn't do it. Yeah, I would be dead a long time. Now, how do you survive? I would have I would have been like, this isn't worth it.

Yeah, and Colleen is.

Such a hero on top of all this, And you know, I'm glad Jannis came forward because, like you mentioned, he was building a new place to torture people and he was gonna grab another chick, Like, yeah, there was no way he was not gonna grab another young woman. He was building more superior torture devices and more secretive and outside the house, so they really saved women's lives.

Like you want to really understand how someone gets to be like this man, Like how does that happen? What switches in your brain that you need to torture people for your pleasure?

It's so weird. Yeah, I mean it's we could read a book.

Well, and I was having personal dilemmas because I was like the porn I watch uses all of these equipments, but it'size of course, but it is like, what is that and why wasn't that enough for him?

Like why does it need to be full on?

Because I was like I wonder if it was me, if I could be like I'm kind of into this, can you just be a little nicer to me? I don't I don't know what I would do. But obviously the jury is like, why are you jogging, you're shopping, you're going to church? Why didn't you do anything? And so, and she felt like she was on trial. Colleen legit was like, are they gonna fucking believe this?

Like is this gonna fucking happen?

Like she was not very happy, and Christine knew she had a really big hill to climb, and she was able to explain like, of course she loved him. He gave her a Bible, food, water, and she learned that with her love she got freedom. The more love she gave, the more freedom she got, the more grateful she was, the more love she had for him. Yeah, he had complete control. And to me, it's like, how dumb is

Like discuss it.

So he talked about Stockholm syndrome, corsion, brainwashing, how does it affect a person to be broken like that?

How do you course people to not leave and all of that. So he really.

Helped bring this trial together and there was five and a half weeks of deliberation.

Everyone was pretty numb. It took a toll everyone here, the jury deliberating. We oh know, the whole trial, little trial. Only two and a half days of deliberation on Halloween.

Ooh, spooky, thank you for making it funny. Yeah, nineteen eighty five, two and a half days of deliberation, which seems a lot. But he was found guilty on ten out of the eleven counts, and they said that he just did an off shocks like he was shocked. And his defense also that was that the two women were lesbian lovers and they're just trying to kick him out and they've turned on him. It's just like God, I bet there was one guy on the jury that was like,

Prison, you don't get to come out for COVID.

And the judge again said this is the most evil thing ever. And you know, they still haven't not found Mary, which is upsetting. But I'm just so thankful for the prosecutor and that it was a female. I'm so thankful for the forensic psychologist and that Colleen was so brave

And Olivia Benson says that to all the victims, like when they come to her, they're like, I should have screamed, I should have run, I should have done that, and Olivia Benson always says, you did what you had to do.

You survive and that's why, you know, with like not the hatred of police, but like the issues with police right now, it is so nice to hear about these forensic professionals, detectives, prosecutors that go above and beyond for victims and this psychiatrist could have been on the stand and left and he took the time to make sure to let her know, and she said that freed her, that that took so much weight off her shoulders. Again, not a fairy tale. She does have a child. She's

Insane.

In twenty fifteen, he tried to get early parole. They made sure that did not happen, and she did attend his parole hearing, which is amazing. They tried to get Janis to comment and well the jail obviously obviously the fucking psychopath did not want to. Janis had a weird qu why she didn't want to participate in the documentary. She said, no matter what I would say, the media would twist my words and that would portray me as a violent person. I am the gentlest person and I always have been.

Okay, and I don't know's a victim, but I mean she's probably like I never laid a hand on this girl, but she also just never did anything. Well, I mean, I guess in the end, the reason it didn't last forever is because she stopped it. Janice, do you look at it that way?

I just wonder what is she I just wonder what she wants to say that she can't say because she thinks people would.

Turn again, would twist it. Yeah, that's like a mystery to me. Yeah.

Well, I read also that they live. Colleen and Janis live very close to each other. They don't they don't know, but they don't speak.

They don't. Yeah, it's like, of course they don't.

What are they like to get on the phone and be like remember that time, Like their whole history together is traumatic and horrible.

Yeah, and I just want to leave. You know, this has been an intense one. But she just really hopes her story helps people, so they can move on because she wants to move on. And yeah, so that's why she feels it's important to come forward as a survivor. And that's amazing.

Well, yeah, thank you everybody for sticking with us through that tough one.

But thanks for the info. Lisa.

We're going to have an interview with someone from the show.

All right, guest time, motherfuckers, and it is a really big deal.

This was a very thrilling interview.

We've been waiting with scheduling everything for kind of months to be able to talk to our guest.

And you know, I put on eyeliner. I was thrilled.

I was ready, and then my internet stopped working.

We literally talked for twenty five minutes before on Lisa's perfect Internet, and then the moment that this guest popped into the zoom room, she was gone.

I was gone. I was panicked.

I tried to fix things hotspots, unplugging, plugging, and nothing worked. And so I did get to talk to him, which was amazing, and I called into the zoom So if you don't know that, that is an option.

To our team. So I was still thrilled to hear his voice.

I was fully in but as soon as the interview ended, I did cry pretty hysterically for a little bit, and then and then for three days was in a dark depression. And then people were like, what's wrong, And because of everything going on in the world, I couldn't be honest and be like, well, my internet went out and that's what costs a full nervous breakdown. But it was incredible, and Kara did get to look.

At him the whole time.

I did so without further ado. We are I mean, this guest truly. We've had some amazing guests on this podcast. This guest truly needs no introduction. You know him, you love him. He's your favorite alcoholic captain. He has been on three hundred and thirty one episodes of your favorite show. Long Order, SPU guys, please check out our interview with Dan Florik aka Captain Kraigan. You've been on three hundred

That's good.

So I guess you just mentioned before we officially got started Lisa is via phone right now, and we were saying, this reminds us of the episode nine one one We're Benson's on with the Little Girl, and you said one of my favorite episodes. So that was one of our first questions for you was do you have favorite episodes or episodes that have like haunted you?

Oh wow, well that's a big question. Yeah, I mean there are favorite episodes. Nine to one one is one of them. There's one in this first year, Hysteria was one that I thought was very very special. But also, you know, the big problem is I don't remember all.

The names right. Of course, the episodes.

To a certain extent, you know, there are usually one word in the kind of together and I even remember looking at it might have been this one's slaves. Yeah, there was something I had with Stabler where I said, well let me get this straight. So there might have been something with a woman by some guy somewhere.

In New York.

That's kind of every episode, yeah, right, you know, certain ones mean more to me. I mean I remember a couple that where I was featured more, you know, And of course those are always ones they stay with me.

We both just recently rewatched Russian Brides, which was one where you were heavily featured because you were and you sort of gave a lot of dramatic backstory about Craigan while you were undercover, and that was like a really that felt like a very you centric episode.

Well, that is one of the favorites Russian Brides is there were so many things about that, and as the episode developed then I was involved more and more. And I love the fact that if you go back to see I can't even remember if it was SVU or the original where I have the story about where my wife died in a plane crash.

I think that's an original because I believe that in the encyclopedic history of your character of Kragan that happens in original. And then that's when you moved to SVU later and that you sort of allude to that being why you don't drink anymore.

Right, And I think that's a big part of it, which is also enslaves that comes up. But you know, I had to start digging back about all this stuff. I do remember that right now we're talking about three different things. But I will say that was a big part of it, that when my wife died, it was a big part of the story that I always thought I would be the one who would have to make the call say, or you know that I'm gone as a cop. And it was that my wife who was

Yes, well, we've had some listeners send in photos of you at the precinct drinking cartons of milk.

Yeah, and we were wondering is.

That to aid in the alcohol storyline? Or does Kragan love milk? Did you love milk? How did that come about?

You know what?

These are things that sometimes are just written into an episode. There were a few things. I would drink milk, but I wanted to drink it out of the carton. I would drink tea, but I never used the handle on the cop. These were just personal choices. I think it was really just about this is a guy who's fighting with it, and it's in this episode. And that's what came back to me. Right, we all have to sit

It was funny because people were writing us in their ideas like, oh, he probably has heartburn because of all these years on the job, and like, you know, the these theories about why you were drinking the milk. But I guess it was just written into the script that Craigan likes milk.

Well, Dan Florick had heartburned. But we could make that work too.

Yeah, I mentioned you before. We've talked to another cast member who told us that you were a real prankster on the set.

We wanted to know if you would care to comment on that.

Well, you know, how far did we go with this. The point is this, This is what I will say. Okay, you guys, you know and love SVU, so you know what we deal.

With, right.

So I felt there had to be a little bit of a gallows humor. So we had to find places where we could release and laugh and have a good time without ever ever making fun of what we were doing. So I will say that yes, whenever we could, well, if I could place a what becussion, it would happen, but things along those lines.

And also you could plan mistakes in the lines, you know what I mean, just just to have a little bit of fun, especially in the.

Most dark moments. And I just think it was necessary, that's all. But I was if there was anyone who was the prankster, yes it would have been me. I also thought I was very very careful about where I would do that.

I'm sure you had discretion.

Did you any specific little pranks come to mind, like something you did to Mariushka.

No.

I think usually with Marishka it wouldn't be anything like the quote what becussion thing. I would sometimes do a line wrong on purpose, just a thrower, and it was always treasure, you know, and she knew and that was it.

And she gave it back by the way.

Yeah, well you mentioned Audrey McDonald, who we are a big fan of. Are there other guest stars that came in that you were super excited to work with or had a great time with on set.

Having done the original and s FORU?

There have been so many amazing guests. John Ritter, Oh, yeah, Henry Winkler, Julie Bowen.

Yeah, these are all great episodes.

Yes, and that was an early one too, and she was terrific. There's dozens and dozens of people who were guest stars who have become huge stars. And I guess this is what I'll say, all these episodes between the two shows, over four hundred episodes, I worked with people who became big stars. I worked with people who should have become big stars. And it was always I think it was Joe Stern who said early on, you know,

How good was that? In that day.

That moment, it became a place where people wanted to be a guest star on the show. And that's where I think it became. I think that people are naysayers used to call it a Law and Order special guest star unit. But I thought it was a really good thing for us, and I thought that all kinds of people who normally even didn't do television wanted to be on our show because look, it was a really it's

You know.

We heard also that you lived in La the entire time that you were filming the show.

So how did that work? Are you like the highest level on Delta of any person in the world? Like do you just flew back and forth? Like what was the story?

There were a lot of miles.

I got a lot of miles, But I lived in Venice, California, bought a place in New York, and so I lived in both places pretty much half a year. There were a couple million miles. I haven't used them all yet, Oh my god. And the truth is, I can't wait to get back to New York. And I have so many causes and people that I support in New York and I can't wait to get.

Back the years between Law and Order and SVU. Were you surprised by the offer to be the captain on this new show was in the works for a while.

Do you remember how that came about?

Well, I was in prison, and no, you get it. It was it was a surprise. Dick Wolf called and he said it was going to be a show called Sex Crimes and he wanted to bring back the captain. And then in the interim there was it became Law and Order Special Victims Unit. At that moment when they first called me, it wasn't going to be, you know, part of the Law and Order brand, it.

Was going to be a new show. Wow, and it was going to be called Sex Crimes.

I think they made a good move.

Oh, I think they did too.

Again, my initial take was I didn't want to do it, and then it just clicked and I said, Okay, I'm in. And I think it worked out that way. But some of those episodes, especially in that first maybe ten twelve years, some of the best stuff I think I've ever done, and the best the show has been.

That's my take, how did you feel when you got the script for the Delia Ganzel storyline and being framed with Carissa, Like were you excited to do all that?

Because those are very meaty episodes, and.

I think that was like so shocking for fans because you're sort of like beloved as this like Dad of the Precinct and then you're like framed with a dead sex worker in your bed, like it's it was.

I mean, that whole arc is crazy.

It was a season finale, so then we had to wait months and months to see what happened.

I mean, it was nuts.

I just that was a really crazy storyline that we love.

It was and I'll tell you what this is. Well, I want to put this carefully. This is always about when contracts are coming up and that kind of thing, and it's like, if you're not going to work it out.

Then Craigan did it? You know what I mean?

Whatever, And actually it goes to slaves and I'll go there because that was the thing. I remember when we all sat and talked with the shrink, somebody was going to go and that's how that thing was kind.

Of set up. Wow. Wow, So and I think we all know what happened.

Yeah, well that's but that's very interesting that that because like we really liked that sort of runner of Audra McDonald interviewing all of you, and you know, there's this how you all handle the job, and that's just an interesting sort of business.

Uh, the other side of it to consider.

We also find it really funny how much everyone hates therapy and the psychologist, especially Stabler, Like they're just so mad when they have to get analyzed, and I it just always made me laugh a lot.

Well, and you know what's fascinating about all of this too, that's why Stabler was ultimately gone. I mean in the storyline, you know what I mean, he's shot too many people, that punched too many people and all of that. But it's TV, right, I Mean I don't know much about it, but I understand he's coming back.

Yeah, well he's doing a spin off called I think there's going to be a low order organized crime that he's the head of, and so I think him coming back to SVU.

Is like a little bit of a tease to that.

Sure.

Sure, So that's what a lot of fans are waiting.

On and I understand that, see, and that's the cool thing about fans and they're very forgiving. Yeah, you know, he punched out more people than anyone in the history of NYPD, but they found a way to bring him back.

Yeah, it's funny.

We always like talk about whether, like, I don't know, will Stabler be a little bit more woke coming back into the like after all these years, Like, will he be a little bit more sensitive?

And well, he has to be more woke. I wouldn't go as sensitive.

You mentioned the fans, and I am assuming the SVU fans are pretty intense. Are there any stories you have of in the wild of fans approaching you or any wild interactions?

You know, I'm always surprised when somebody because my everyday life, I don't think about this and it has been a while, but even while I.

Was doing it.

I mean, I'm an actor, you know, I've done five hundred episodes of television. I've done a couple dozen movies. I've done almost one hundred plays. When people will stop me and just look and go captain, And I even have a moment.

Where I'm like, excuse me.

But the other side of that is that I get it, and like I said, SVU is part.

Of my DNA.

You know, there's all these episodes, and I may be recognized two or three times a week, or two or three dozen times a week, and I think the good thing is this, for the most part, I had a wonderful, wonderful time and a wonderful experience. And so if people are pleasant, I'll sit and talk with them and I'll, you know, I'll talk about whatever episode they want to talk about. It's a part of my life and it

Five takes right.

You would have the cops, you would have the das, you would They all had a point of view, and depend on how you looked at it, each one could be correct right. And I think that made for wonderful discussions, and especially with families.

Swinging over a little bit more to the funny parts of the show, because you get so many of these deadpan one liners like I feel like you have so much of the comedy in the show, almost like you'll be like Olivia there the mother's demanding she'd be questioned in a penis free environment, you know, like you get all these like gar I wrhy.

This one too.

I wrote It's all fun and games till somebody loses a penis.

Well, yes, I enjoyed those very much.

What I will say is I think Jerry orback got the those lines like the original.

Yes, but I do like that because.

They did give me a lot of those lines, and I think that was pretty That was one of the favorite parts for me, you know, because a lot of it was kind of dry. I was just saying, well, I had the episodes where I said, I was just directing traffic. I would say, well, ask this, ask the uncle, ask the monkey's uncle, do it again, you know, and that's all he did. But the ones where I really got something to do and that were spicy like that, I always enjoyed that always. Well, here's the other side

And you have I feel like I've learned so much about the show, and I mean through the show, I've.

Learned so much.

Yeah, I do want to mention a lighter moment in the show's history. And I don't know if you know that this is one of your most famous moments. It's a gift. It's the background on my cell phone. Actually it's you with the monkey, and the monkey coming out of the basketball and giving you a hug.

And we would like to know if you have any memories of that.

Well here, I'm going to give you a three things. Two things.

Yes, right, I am dating the monkey. They know the monkey. Wait a minute, let me see if I can find this. Hold on, hold on real quick, I don't think is it here? Give me a second. Okay, can you see this?

Oh my god, Kara takes screenshot.

Oh my god, Okay, wait, hold on, Dan, Dan, Dan, hold on, I'm just taking a quick picture of this.

This is amazing.

He has basically an oil painting of him and the monkey right now.

But what I'm going to say, when I left the show, that was one of the things that was one of my favorite gifts.

Who that I was done. That monkey's name was Kimba.

Uh huh.

And I actually had to have playdates with Kimba so that.

He would get used to you and stuff.

Yes, because you know it was the fake basketball and all that stuff, and when it was thrown then when he had to fake basketball and I had to open it and he had to come up, and so he had to get to know me. And his favorite snack was gummy bears. So we would meet and we would have playdates three I think three playdates, and I would give him gummy bears.

And the other thing is this, we have to get this. He would do this.

He would slap my head all the time and steal my glasses. I was wearing glasses when we weren't shooting, and I remember the trainer said, you have to tell him, no, you have to treat him, you know, like you would a dog that you were training.

So I had to say, you know, Kimba, no.

So anyway, we got to know each other and other than him pooping on me a couple of times because he had to wear those what do you call like ger animals in the rehearsals, in that moment, I got to tell you, I think they cut the line which broke my heart when the monkey came out. The line in the script was I said, the monkey's okay, and I think they cut the line. But he knew me well enough that his arms reached right up and he hugs me, and I was I cried.

I was like, dude, that's amazing.

We're bonding.

Yeah, which comes out to anyway, I'm doing a whole thing right now with me working with animals. That's a whole different thing. But that's a big part of it because that episode was called Wildlife and there were many many animals involved. But I got to tell you, well, it's kind of odd to say one of my favorite actors I worked with is a monkey. I think he's a baby whiteface gibbon if I'm remembering correctly.

But Kimba, Wow, you know so much about Kimba. That's amazing.

Well, I like I say, we didn't kiss r it was he was a really sweet little dude, and for me, it was a moment in an episode. And you know, I rehearsed with him as I would have with Mariska or Chris Well. I nefverely gave them gummy bears, but the point was in that moment. I just thought, Wow, that went well. And it has always been a sweet thing for me. It's been one that people actually loved that and remember it.

I mean, Lisa can't forget it. It's the background of her phone every time she gets a vocal call, she sees you and Kimba. This is amazing, This is like, oh my god. We couldn't have asked for a better story.

Oh my gosh.

We would like to know if you committed a crime, who would you like to be your defense attorney? Oh?

Wow, you mean from the show?

Yeah?

Okay, wow defense attorneys? Wasn't Mariscus husband and defensive?

Yes, I'm going to go with him because most of them I didn't have a good time with, So I think Peter.

I would go with Peter.

Okay, Trevor Langon, is your answer great.

Yes, if you called nine one one, which detective would you like to show up?

You know, depending on what it was, it would have to be Elliott Stabler because just because yeah, absolutely.

And then I just I like to know your favorite craft service snacks, like the things they they knew they needed ready for you.

Well you know what they were. Oh wow, there were so many. Now here's one I'll give you very quickly. It was We used to call it a maloney meal because he wanted it was like ground turkey, brown rice, and a green vegeta. But for me, I liked this crazy mix of popcorn and pepper and chini.

Oh interesting. I mean, you know I'm gonna try it immediately.

Yeah, so you gotta try it.

I'm serious.

Try it, Lisa.

Yes, I can't believe that we got to talk to him. I mean a true dream.

Yeah, I love it. It was. It was beautiful. It's just amazing. I just can't Yeah, I guess I'm stuttering. I don't know.

We are going to post on our Instagram the photo of Captain Craigan holding the oil painting of him and the monkey from the episode Wildlife aka Kimba, and to know.

That Kimba likes gummy bears. It's like, am I Kimba?

You know?

I just like we're all Kimba. We are all Kimbla, and.

We need pepperaccini and popcorn. That's going to be our And when we after all this COVID mess, when I finally get to see you in person, we're having a pepperaccini popcorn.

We should just have a craft services party we're together, where we eat everything people have recommended to us, Yes, all all of the craft services.

Also, I loved learning that so many of our cliffhangers that keep us wanting more are truly contractual things and away like.

Like that, like we're like, what did mony? What happened? And it's like it's a contract, you dumb bitches.

So like I did like learning that if if Dan Fluoric didn't behave like would he would he have gotten away with the cry or he didn't commit the cry? But you know it's just like interesting, you forget about the business.

Would they have sent Captain Craigan off having murdered a sex worker?

That would have been the end of his contract? But that was an amazing interview.

We are kind of like still shocked and the episode was so harrowing. Obviously, there's not so many since to learn, Like, not that many people are going to encounter the evil that this man Cameron Hooker is. But Colleen stan is a true I mean like hero, like an example of strength beyond anything I've ever heard of.

Yeah. I don't even know what to say.

Yeah, people are fucking bad. And always trust your gut. I think that's something to always keep in mind with big things, little things always, just like I think as women especially we've been taught to not listen to our voices or that we're emotional or that we're wrong and like second guess ourselves and just an always reminder that your gut is real and true and always try to follow.

It and fuck being polite, fuck being polite. Yeah, yeah, but.

That's kind of it for us. For our post mortem today, let's hop into what would Sister Peg Do? On this week's what would Sister Peg Do? Which is our little segment where we give you guys a resource or an organize that you can lend your eyes, ears, or wallets too.

This week, we.

Strongly strongly would urge you to write to the California Pearle Board and to Governor Gavin Newsom, the Governor of California, to express your concerns about the potential early release of Cameron Hooker, who is the man who held Colleen stan captive in a box for seven years. So this is not a person that can be among us in society.

And a reminder from our episode Counterfeit that Craig Pyre, a murderer, is also up for parole, same stacke and same information.

So yeah, why don't you knock out both of them?

Right?

Yeah, great idea. And that's what would susterr PEG do for this week? Lisa? What's our episode next week? So our next.

Week's episode is amazing. It is mean from season five, episode seventeen, and you can watch it Hulu, Peacock and always you know you can subscribe, leave us some stars have fun.

We have an email you.

Can let us know what episode you'd like us to chat about, or please tell us if you're related to anyone that's ever been on SVU, or if you've met anyone from SVU.

We're very interested. See you next week.

Guys, That's Messed Up as an exactly right production. If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up and on Twitter at Messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Clank and at Glitter Cheese. As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our producer and fellow s view super fan Hannah Kyle Craton.

Thank you to our heroes Stephen Ray Morris and Annalie Snelson are engineers.

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To our artistic queen, Carly gen Andrews for all of our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer and everybody at exactly right media.

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