Sick w/ Jill Marie Lawrence

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

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Hello, that's messed up an sv podcast. My name is Lisa, I am the host of the show. I am the other host of the show, and my name is Kara. And you guys should have the GISTs by now. This is episode seven thousand. We recap an amazing episode of SVU.

We talked about the true crimes based on and then we talked to some incredible guests who had something to do with the show, either acting or in some other capacity.

And you know, today's no different.

Well, I have a question outside of a SVU of course. Oh oh go I you know, I have some weddings this year and I found some dresses that were being instagrammed down my throat is a trashy to message the company and just be like, am I cool enough?

Will you give me these dresses or what? Like? I have a check mark.

I don't know, Like I just kind of want to hit them up and be like, I have some events coming up. I'm like, do I have enough followers for you to hook me up?

Or what?

I say, why not? What's the worst?

They say, no, right, I think I have to because you know, they're three hundred and fifty dollars dresses, and I feel like I would, I don't want to. I would, I will buy them, but I don't want to.

I think, Yeah, just be like I'm going to be extensively photographed.

Yeah, these are sharing weover. Yeah.

I think that you should have no shame, go for it and then fill us in, keep us updated.

Yeah, I'll fill you in. I just like, it's like, just give me the dresses. Just give them to me, Give me the dresses. That's what I have to say.

Oh my god, Yeah, that's so funny. I feel like my weddings. I used to go to nine weddings a year, and now I'm like it's like trickle trickle, you know, Like I had one last year that was supposed to be we all watched it on zoom together, like it was supposed to be, you know, a live wedding, and then now it's like, yeah, I don't even know, Oh why am my brother's wedding in the fall?

But that's it, you know, No, I'm down to one or two a year, but I never did it in my twenties. Really like I just to sprinkle, and now this is my most busy wedding year, so it's pretty firing. And then I guess pre pandemic. I went to a couple, but I yeah, I'm excited. I think even like when I showed up to Noah and Ester's wedding in Denver.

But I did it. I don't know when I was happy to be there. Yeah. No, I love weddings like I really think I shine at a wedding.

I love them, chats, dancing, snacks, love, sincerity like a bar, yes, like open bars, photo boots.

Yeah, I love it. Kids. Not being welcome. I mean so many of my favorite things.

Yeah, I don't think children will be at any of these weddings I'm a part of. Yeah, my brother just had to send a follow up email like, ooh, I think some of you got the wrong idea about the save the date your kids.

Are not invited. No, And I was like so young at my sister's wedding.

I was in sixth grade and it was fun obviously, but like her husband's brother was teen years and he got hammered. I remember him singing Enrique Iglesias at the end of the night, just like bumbling through. But I think that's where people first get wasted. Family wedding.

Yeah, I was this. I didn't really ever try this. But did you ever get drunk at a barmetzvah or about mitzvah?

No? No, I feel like some people do that though they like go, they figure out ways to get like Shirley temples and like get booze into them or something like that.

I remember drinking in eighth grade.

No, me neither, but some kids do, and like fucking Shirley temples were my obsessions, so I would never want to add alcohol to them. Like I was just like give me load my like inject those Maraschino cherries into my veins, you know.

But like I bet you some.

Kids like fucking try to turn up when their parents aren't looking at bought Mitzvahs and bar Mitzvah's right.

Not, I hope not.

But I guess I knew kids smoking weed and junior high. But I don't think they're doing great now, Like I.

Don't know, you can't. It's not good to be that cool that young. Why it just start drinking.

I mean I did take like a shot in sixth grade because I found my sister's like stuff, and like we did a thing. But in terms of like, ooh, I'm gonna go drink, I would say, hi, like junior year, junior year.

I'm gonna yeah.

I had like a rough, tough swim season, and then I decided to go into weed and alcohol.

I needed a break.

Yeah, No, I my A lot of my friends did start drinking in eighth grade, and I was like so anti. I was like, no, we can't do that. And then by the end of ninth grade, I was fully drinking. And but I didn't start smoking weed really until like summer after sophomore year. Like for some reason, I like summer after sophomore year, I spoked weed. I didn't get high because you know they used to say like, oh,

Yeah, I can't imagine.

Well, that's why I love that Yellow Jacket's part when like Shaunas revealed that she's pregnant and then one of the girls goes, you had sex, And that's how I felt that young where you would be like, oh my god, you're sucking dick and you're twelve, Like it was kind of wild.

I wasn't getting wasted in junior high. I don't.

I mean, maybe I was a loser, Like I don't remember people getting wasted at bar and bat mitzvahs that I frequent.

No, I don't think you're a loser.

I just feel like I've heard about the Barbomitzvah thing, but I do know that like eighth I mean I was going to Barbomitzvah, was in the seventh grade, and then like in eighth grade, people were starting to dabble, and I remember it with some of my good friends, and I was like, you guys, like, don't do that.

That's bad. Like I was really upset.

And then by the end of ninth grade, I was like, yeah, vodka tastes fine with OJ.

You know, like, but no, I would like chug it. I would get way too wasted. That was the problem. We would all just like chug the vodka. Like you just don't even know what the fuck you're doing with anything. But Shirmy Temple's with vodka are delicious.

Now I have done, yes, yes, well, probably because we're gonna put good vodka in it too, right, Like I think that the like the way we used to do it in high school or whatever was like, you know, pop off like potato vodka for like ten dollars a gallon or whatever.

And it was nasty. They're called dirty Shirley's in case you go, yeah, dirty Shirley's. That's wow. Spoke that's what got them going.

My friend sophs partner Annalise loves a dirty Shirley and we used to drink them in San Diego.

Yep, dirty Shirly I like that. That's so exciting. Yeah, cocktails are great. I've do you know that.

I was looking up Shirley Temple the other day. This is weird.

I don't know why I was looking up Shirley Temple other day because I was trying to like write a joke that had something about Shirley Temple in it, and like she is like the only child star that had an okay life, Like Shirley Temple lived until she was like eighty five, no alcohol problems, no drug problem, like.

Just a Do you think it's because she was famous for a little bit of time and then disappeared, like she didn't continue or what I.

Think, Well, she didn't keep acting, but I think she was still like active, like like publicly, like I saw photos of her as an old woman, like out at events, you know what I mean. Like I don't think she went fully underground, but like most child stars have some kind of little problem, you know, and like, yeah, surely Temple just skated by, she tapped danced by, And.

How are your tap classes going? VT? Debs.

I wasn't able to go last week, but you know, I'll be back on the horse sucking at it again this week.

No, it's important to suck at stuff.

I just like, first of all, it's it's not that physically taxing on me for some reason, like I don't get super sweaty and it doesn't make me sore or anything. But I am also not great at it, so it's like it feels like I'm forcing my brain to work in a different way.

And I kind of like that.

But you know this idea that you have to be good at everything, Like sometimes it's just like you could just do it.

Like some people are like, when's the recital, and I'm like, there isn't one, and I wouldn't do it if there was.

One, Like I don't, so it's like I think it's just to adults dance recital.

I mean that would be a.

Low no exist because when I worked at the USA network, my boss, who was like an executive at USA, was doing adults haap and was like, my recitals this weekend and I was like, whoa, that's like.

Meg Stalter's character and hacks when she's like, oh, my ballet thing. So but I wonder if that's someone who also worked at USA, like worked on the show and connected at all, or people are just funny funny writers.

Yeah, it is funny because it's like they asked I go to the same school dance school as my child. I think I've mentioned that, and so like they're having a recital, which I did not sign her up for because it's one hundred dollars and Rosie doesn't do anything, like she will not follow instructions or do any of the moves.

I'm not like going to pay to like see that.

So I just didn't even consider that there would be one for the adults.

So I cannot believe you're not paying for the recital. I also can't believe you have to pay for a recital.

One hundred dollars and I will in like a year or two years, Like she just needs to be a little bit older, Like she just goes and fucks off, you know, Like there's no way I'm paying to see her like run across the stage and like not do the dance.

You know, but I'm sure it'll be cute now.

The photo of her with her little friends is cute. Also, Rosie on a pony was very cute.

Oh yes, yes, full horse girl. She fun on it.

Oh my god, elated, And I was worried she was going to get nervous because Rosie talks a big game and then when something like actually comes up, she gets scared and like they strap you to this pony, and she felt like sturdy and.

Was just having the time of her life. It was great. I'm very happy for her living a good life. She's going to start journaling soon.

Oh.

One more thing.

We are going to be on tour this weekend in both Seattle and Portland. We had two shows in Seattle on the ninth of April, but they sold out, so we did add another show on Friday, April eighth, So if you live in the Seattle area, please come see us.

That Friday show still has tickets available.

And then on Sunday the tenth, we are in Portland at the Aladdin. All of this information is available at That's Messed Up live dot com, or you can check the link in our Instagram bio or all of our Instagram has all flyers for all these places. Contact the venues directly. Whatever you guys want to do, just come see us live. We'd love to see you. Should we get started on today's episode?

Yeah?

Please, Yeah, We've got a really good one this week. A classic.

All right, let's get into this episode. I would say a classic, a favorite. This is one of the funniest episodes of SVU and All History.

I cannot wait.

I mean, there's molestation of children, but it's pretty funny, not the melestation part. You'll know what I'm talking about. We're doing Sick season five, episode nineteen. Let's get into it. It opens on two young women with like pop punk blaring and one brunette and a blonde and the blonde short hair one. She's pissed off. She I miss doing this. She like slams closed the flip phone and oh so sad. It is so satisfying. And they start talking about like like we get that there.

It's a dorm room.

They are not really friends, they are put together, and it's very Alphaba and Glinda, if you guys are Wicked fans. There's a one's a goth, one's a blonde, and they are not really getting along. And the goth is always online and the blonde needs some action. This is two thousand and four and there's only one phone internet line, and.

So she's like, you're always on it, stop it, blah blah blah.

So they're fighting, and the goth is in a chat room called Slasher Fan chat room, and she says this is life and death and you're like, shut up, bitch.

But no.

So there's a guy in the chat room and he's saying that he has a five year old with him and he's gonna kill her, and he calls like cops pigs and he's gonna slit their throats. There's just like a lot of threatening of murdering, and so they get scared and call nine one one and.

On the chat when you see the chat window, like the font is in like scary, bloody like font.

Yeah, this is somewhere that your husband would live. I would say this was what your husband was doing in oh for he was in these slasher movie things, right.

Yeah, four. I think he was moving to Chicago to do comedy.

But yes, this is definitely a place he might hang out for sure, just to talk about the slashers, not to like talk about killing kids.

Yeah.

I did not mean to imply, no, that he would kill a child. But he does love horror movies. We talked yesterday about some so whatever. So this is happening in Denver. So we're in So someone at the Denver Police starts taking notes. They're taking notes down They for some reason think it's happening in Denver and then behind the police there's a bunch of random trophies on a file cabinet and it's like, were they bowling? I want to know what all these cops did to win all

I think I remember him more from this one.

He is like a juicier part but you know, an sview alum, double alum. And then we get a common SVU moment where it's actually a child pretending to be someone on the internet and.

It is not a killer.

There's not a five year old girl being held hostage about to get her slow her throat slit.

So that is very very good news.

So Little JJ comes out and he looks like trouble and he goes it was just a.

Joke, and I'm on his side.

Okay, those goths are dumb, Like, I don't know if I do you think he would have called the cops.

Well, apparently they just kept asking him over and over again, are you joking?

Are you joking? And he would an answer, So I guess maybe I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know. Maybe I'm not on his side. Please don't come for me. But I did write I'm like I'm with him.

This kid is so specific to me, like I always remember him, his attitude, his little raspy voice, his face like he kind of reminds me also of Dicky Stabler in later episode.

In other episodes, yeah, he also reminds me of the little boy from the Elizabon, not from the Julie Bowen.

Darlene from Roseanne episode.

Yes, yes, the one who drives the car and that's how they at the beginning.

Yeah, because he's still van and it's just a joke.

Yeah, all these kids are just pulling horrific pranks.

Yeah, they all three of them are together.

We should do a fuck Mary kill, but that would be illegal because they're children. Okay, so we're at the credits. Guys, we're at the credits. There is you know, we get it. The kid is the thing. There's a family that's happening. We're back at the station with the dad and son. They're at the table with their detectives and the dad is like, whatever, he's a kid. It's a prank. Relax. Stabler says, you can't just like say you want to kill cops and rape women. Like that's not that's not

So your kid did something wrong.

They asked you if you were joking, like Kara said, He said no, they believed that you were serious and the dad, oh, and so Stabler says, and honestly, reading everything that you wrote, I believed you were serious too. And the dad says, then you're an idiot. The balls on this family, the balls on this family. That's why parents are so dangerous to the world. They can't admit that their kids have a problem.

Not me.

I'll be the first one to turn Rosy in. I've said it once and I'll say it again. I know I'm always defending Rosie.

Both of you were addicted to the case Sidia where friend's kid had a birthday party and he's like, did she have a kid? Kara walked in. The first thing she said to me was do Rosie have some of the casidia?

And I was just like no, but she had chips.

No one cares and they're like uh oh, and Jared kept be like, well no, Jared kept being like, don't eat the chips. I'm like, chips in a casidia are one hundred percent the same thing, but different textures.

Like it doesn't nutrition wise.

Yeah, it was funny. It was the first thing you said when you walked in to the door of the party. I said hello, and you were just like, did she eat the Casidia?

And the whole time I was there with.

Your husband with JAREDY kept being like, eat the case, Sidia, just one bite of the case Sidia? Could you have the case Cidia? You guys are like, we're always fighting with her about eating you know how it is, No, she wanted chips.

I try to give her an orange. She didn't want it.

Listen, kids are cool, but parents just we'll see it throughout this whole episode. I mean, they're gonna be evil, you guys. This is such a good episode, but it's just this thing of like, why can't you just admit that your little child might have gone too far in the Internet.

I would have made this easier too.

But maybe he's doing the right thing and giving the cops no information because you can't trust police.

I don't really know.

But it cuts to Benson and she's with the mom still at the house as a bunch of people are gathering evidence, and then the mom as well, is like totally delusional. She says her son is very sensitive. Please don't do this to us. Your son is a sick freak. And then the mom is also like, what about that broken door?

What are you gonna do?

And Benson says, fill out a form in the NYPD while imburse it.

L O l.

SV is true a true comedy.

Benson asks if he's ever heart his sister, and the mom says never, while like still clearing the dinner table. People are just so committed to finishing errands on this show. I will never understand that mentality. Benson also says that she needs to talk to the daughter alone, and the

But I didn't remember that until Benson said that.

The mom doesn't love that, but she says, yeah, fine, whatever, and Benson's being very stern. There's no niceness. She's very pissed at these parents. Like usually there's some like a game of sensitivity, but not this time. She's just like pissed at these delusional, absent parents. So it cuts back to Stabler with the boys, and he's quoting the things the boy wrote about hurting a five year old, and

Like where is this? What's happening?

He then calls Stabler a moron, which I love. I want to watch that on repeat over and over, like I just I love it so much. Stabler's trying to figure out what has made this kid so angry and violent, and he says life is very stressful. So then Stabler goes, oh, stress, Really you want to know about stress? I'll tell you what stress is. And then he's started, which I don't

And it's like twenty three seasons of SVU.

I don't think shit has ever been brought up, and I don't understand why I had to be brought up with a child, And I'm like.

Yeah, that's so true. They've gone everywhere, and I don't think I've ever seen heard a shit story. There's never been a defication ever.

Amy Smart's character got peed on, which was pretty traumatizing. That's one of the like more horrific episodes, and I remember crying like that.

One really always gets me and upsets me.

But I, yeah, this is the only time someone has pooped on someone. But maybe it's because they're talking about it and it happens. We don't have that because they can't. Yeah, Like, I don't think we could handle someone on the stand being like and then they defecated on me.

I know. Maybe I don't know. Maybe there's the standards in practice thing and that goes too far.

Who knows, Well, this is gonna be gross and maybe our listeners will be pissed. But I was listening to a podcast with Aiden Starr, who's a porn star Dominate Trix, and she was talking about her Dominate Trix stuff and some people like, uh, you know, they like to be shit on and puked on.

But she said she.

Prefers when the people eat it because then the smell goes away.

Oh god, because some of them eat it.

And you'd think that's worse to watch someone eat shit, but she goes, it's actually better for me because then the room doesn't smell like they're shit.

Okay, Finally, his face has never looked so sad. But listen, he's.

Gonna say defecating and I'm not gonna tell you about this, but yeah, it was just interesting. You never know what different professions really need or want from the world.

But she's like, please eat your own shit. It'll be easier on me.

So anyways, the dad is like, I don't know how to bounce back from that. Okay, So the dad is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.

He's a kid, And Stabler throws the papers of the transcripts from the chat at him and goes, your look what your son wrote Like he wants to talk like a dirt bag.

I'm gonna treat him like a dirt bag.

It's an aggressive sea and Stabler is hot, and then it cuts to a set Who's the Little Sister And you know it's a pink room and it's my bedspread. I have this bedspread in Skokie at my parents' house.

This yeah, it's from I Kia.

It's like pink and fun shades of pink flowers on the outside and then like the other side of it is a cool pink and green flannel and I loved it and it was like my favorite sheets. So love that my sheets were picked by the props department to be in.

This Taste is Taste, you know, Taste is Taste.

Benson is asking, you know if the brother hurts her, and she says that he pulled her hair once and she just wants to play. And the girl has lots of dolls, like a closet of dolls. I've never seen so many toys. I'm like, okay, so it's a full family of freaks, Like what is happening in this household?

Mean, like, how dare you hurt these living things? He didn't know.

He was just like trying to be a creative kid, and everyone's like, you murdering psycho and yeah, he might.

Have not been a psychopath. He could just be a cool inventor on Shark Tank. Now, but all the dolls are mutilated and burned. Wait, have you read the thing about toy Story where something happened in the files where all of toy Story was deleted from everything, and then one woman was on maternity leave and so she had the one copy of toy Story.

Yes, yeah, and that I read about that a long time ago. And then it's had like a resurfacing with like a meme or something that was about it's I think it's like on a lot of mom meme blogs and shit, because it's like, yeah, when you're on maternity leave, you're awesome and you have files backed up.

I don't really know what the point.

Is, like, yes, just like moms saved the day, or maybe like a lot more people work home. Yeah yeah, let yes, yes, but I read one this morning that was a got like someone fired somebody and then deleted like all her email account immediately without realizing that she had the whole business's schedule in her account and the company lost three years of their schedule.

Oh my god, But like, why is that system set up like that?

That's that's fucked. Wait. Also, did you.

See the meme that's been going around where this this person goes, I had a coworker who came back from eternity leave and I watched them highlight hundreds of emails in their inbox and then just delete them. And then she goes, if they want to find me, they'll find me. And the person goes, I think about that woman all the time.

Love her. Yeah, it's truth.

Leave us alone, Leave us alone, stop emailing. No you email us, email us, email us. But yeah, we will read it eventually. Maybe we should. We should do a trip and go to a Palm Springs or something and rent a house and just answer everything.

Accounts and excuse to go to Palm Springs. Yeah, that's basically so listen to this.

The dolls are mutilated, they're burned as fuck, band aids on the crotch.

Uh.

Craigan now is trying to reason with the father, like your needs help and it's not normal. Your son is not normal and he needs help and the dad does not, and he's just like all boys fuck up their sister's doll and it's like wake up. Craigan's like, no, there's twenty three dolls. They're all mutilated in the crotch region. He is an emotionally disturbed boy. And the dad goes, oh, so you're a doctor now, I just I hate this

And the dad goes for what?

And I don't know if he's playing dumb or if he is dumb, and I don't understand why he sees nothing wrong with what is happening in the world. But Craigan says, we're gonna get him for terroristic threat messages, and the dad goes on an impassion speech which I don't fully disagree with, but he is pissed off that will co op nine to eleven for their own agenda. What do you Where are you gonna send him Guantanamo Bay? So again we're like so in two thousand and four,

It's your fucking show.

And the dad goes, no, I don't want him branded crazy, and it's like, well, too bad, your kid's crazy. Craigan says, fine, but we're not letting him go home to his sister. So it's you. It's like, we're not letting him go home to the sister. It is a threat. And if you're a threat to others or to yourself, you're not leaving this fucking station. Whether you're a child or not. Bellevue or Juvie your call, Sir, Craigan is not fucking around.

I love the word.

Looney and it's a it's a thing of money in Canada, mm hmmm, which I yeah, yeah, Looni's in Tunies cute. So he's there now for a seventy two hour hold. Finn walks in after talking to all the neighbors and they hate this kid. He terrorizes all the children in the neighborhood. He screams till he's red in the face. He's locked kids in utility closets before, and then they were crying in there for an hour before he let

I mean, it sounds like a lot of these prep schools that are on Madison Avenue.

I used to babysit for a kid that went to like.

Fieldston, you know, like they all have these like just sort of generic y kind of names of I.

Don't know, but I bet it's after Faulkner.

I just wanted our listeners to know I know who he is, to be honest, I just wanted everyone to know. I haven't read in a decade, but I do know William Faulkner.

Okay.

So, and then we hear all of the signs and it's like he has trouble paying attention in class, he has poor grades, inappropriate behavior, he's drawing pornographic images in someone's desk and passing around disturbing stories that he's writing, like, these are all signs.

We know the signs.

And so the administrator has the story, hands it over and says, I warned the parents that he needed help and they disagreed. So these parents are on one they might be scientologists, like why are they so against getting this kid any sort of psychological help and preventing crimes in the future. So the school is not allowing him back next year, and they want to kick him out, but it's so close to the end of the term,

Oh?

You miss it?

Having like a ball smacked at your body. Well, I'm really good at catching ball. Yeah, so I would catch him. I was someone that was like sliding and catching. I was good at it. I was like the kid at the end. I was the last man standing more than one time in my life.

I don't think.

I think I have good eyehand coordination, like I can catch balls, but I think like the way that guys would just like whipping at you so fast. I was like scale, like I would just be like, just hit me, and I want to get out, Like I would let myself get out so you can go to the side. I was like, yeah, do you know I know exactly why you wanted to sit on the sideline.

To fucking talk to people. Yeah, you sat on the sideline gossiping.

You know it, bitch?

I love now I'm just picturing you in all the pictures i've seen you tiny, like sliding on the floor to get a toshball, and it's really making me giggle. No, I tried hard and be I remember like I would because I was never good that good at stuff, but I still tried, and I really wanted to get under eight minutes or at eight minutes for the mile. And I do remember getting made fun of by the cool kids that walked it and didn't give a shit because I wasn't good at It's not like I was running

I was struggling, red in the face, but trying so hard, and for what to say.

I think my fastest smile ever was eight thirty. I think that was that's good ever. And I was like so proud of myself because I used to get like ten.

Yeah I was ten.

My goal was always to get like around eight minutes, like I just wanted to have an eight minute mind. And now you know, nothing matters and we might die in a new war, but little Liza wanted to run the fucking mile. Maybe it's my dad was an athlete. I don't know whatever, So Munch says, he was very skinny, and people would he he'll break the pencil and he was a walking bruise.

Baby munch, baby munch.

So they pinpoint Mitchell and he's large and in charge, so we know it's him. He's he's gonna be beaten down some kids. So Finn bounced it. This is like wild to me. But Finn bounces the red ball on this kid's head and grabs him by the back of the neck to lead him away.

But yeah, I get that he was a bully, but he was the victim. He got beat up, he was bloody. He's just paying attention in gym class, like.

What he also, what is he saying? Goes boom, you're out or something like that.

He says he's like sassy and like like, yeah, I don't know if that.

You know, a rab by the back of the neck. But that's what happens when kids look older, I guess. But he hasn't done anything wrong yet. But also, wouldn't you want to see to bounce a red ball on your head?

I know I would.

So they're having a quiet interrogation moment on the stairs and Mitchell's explaining what happened. So JJ's someone took JJ's towel off in the showers just for something to do, and in quote someone, I'm sure it was him and he might have gotten snapped by some wet towels or two. Oh you know, just good fun, the bully says, and Munch goes, ah, Yes, getting pelted by Neanderthals in the private sounds like a blast. I'm telling you, this episode has so many little gems. JJ went postal, he says,

And now it's like, well, who fucking molested him.

Maybe the family since they refused to get him any help or or honest about anything. We find out he has absolutely no friends, and the dad's running interference the whole fucking interview, so obviously you know he's up to no good. So they're gonna accuse the dad of molesting this kid, and I don't think he's gonna take it well. Benson says, I have a feeling the mother knows about it. She has major guilt issues, Like we have to get

Is that true? Yeah?

Like is that like if there's there's I feel like NDAs cover up crimes all the fucking time.

Yeah, So I'm like early because Huang does, like Bedi Wong said that most of the stuff is I mean, it's real research. This is the Neil barriers. Yeah, so but it's possible.

But I think, well, also, what he's probably trying to say is like, you can't sign an NDA, so you can tell me anything you want. Like, nothing you tell me is like going against an NDA because you're you know, you're not old enough to sign these things.

But if you're an adult and you set a lot of core and sign something and then talk about it, and a crime was like I want. I'm like very curious, So any lawyers, anyone that's in this realm, please hit us up. Let us know what you know about NDAs and children and contracts not being able to cover up a crime. So then Huang is so good. He goes, they are not protecting you, Why are you protecting them? Tell us JJ, tell us what happens, and JJ says he was at a sleepover with a bunch of kids.

Trying to put it does pull out your little heart strings. It does because you're like what you are kind of like what a little shit, even though he's funny, and then this is like sad to see him kind of break and.

It's usually life.

I mean, there are people that are just assholes, but it's like most assholes are sad.

Maybe I don't know.

Yeah, you don't I cut that, Okay, No, I think that's true.

Most assholes have something going on.

Yeah, to just be pure asshole with like, but you've had a perfect life.

I don't know. That's kind of hard to find. Today.

I went to a block to get some cold brew, and I think they could tell I was having a rough day and she gave me a free cookie and I was like, that's not a good sign. Like I gotta put on a braw and brush my hair because these people are giving.

Me I'm getting free shit. Yeah, album, Yeah, there's a problem.

She's like, I think you need this, and I go, Okay, they're not wrong.

You're not wrong. You're not wrong, honey.

Huang says, I'm so sorry your parents made you keep this secret for so long.

How is he?

I love Huang? I mean, what an angel on this planet? But you know it's so good that you get it out now. And he's crying and he says he touched me, he made me touch him, and then he told his parents, and then his parents got rich, So what is that?

So what happened?

So what we find out is Billy owns a company that his dad used to work for, and he paid them so much they never have to work again. And then there was like a super super long break in the Hulu. So I'm assuming this is like where a commercial is. And I have to tell you, I was watching this and writing in a cafe in DC and this woman who was clearly mentally not one hundred percent, but the restaurant knew her, everyone knew her, but she was past. She brought in little chocolate carrot umbrellas and

And she did. She had. She came up. She goes, I see that you're working really hard.

I have a present for you. And she gave me

This sounds like the beginning of an SVU too.

Yeah, and she gives a carrot to like a kid who's like traumatized and they collapse, you know, like.

Yeah, or she's the only witness, but she's not a credible enough witness because she talks to a panda.

Yeah, They're like, did anybody else see the crime?

She's like, only my little panda. Yeah.

And then the other there was like a lot of older women sitting alone at this cafe, and then like they all had a competition with her. Like it was just a really fun dynamic and I was lucky to be there. So we're back from the commercial break and my break of talking about carrots, and so the commercial break comes back to a photo of the dad taped onto the workboard at the precinct and Stabler is chatting.

He was middle management.

Then he got another million dollars the next year and another million this year, so he's getting lots of millions. And this Billy guy gives tens of millions of dollars to mostly children's charities, so he has deep, deep pockets for kids. So there's just in my notes, it's literally like in Lisa's notes, there's just a timeline of what's going on with the carrot Panda lady.

It's like, Okay, I got a carrot.

Oh, but the lady was like, I love your hair and outfit, but I was going to the airport, So there's no way. I was wearing my ice I was wearing my iced tea sweatshirt in a high bun.

Like, there's no way. She was like, Wow, you dress amazing. I'm like this iced tea sweatshirt and sweatpants.

Cool. Wait, I'm sorry. I know we have a lot more to get going, but I have questions.

Where does the chocolate factor into the carrot umbrella?

Theroud? So I think it's an Easter candy.

So it's like, there's chocolate, and then it's like the wrapping is an orange carrot, and then the top is a green little hook, so it looks like a carrot umbrella. But okay, hazel not chocolate, Okay, okay. I was like, it's chocolate. Carrot is dipped in chocolate. I was kidding, well because the first time I saw it and heard it, because I knew I wanted to pay attention. She went up to a woman next to me and goes, guess what, I have an umbrella for you, and the.

Woman looked confused.

I looked confused because you know, umbrellas are bigger. And then she took out the little carrot umbrella and I was like, I see what you're doing here?

I cannot. I know, I have to work out in the world more often. It was like you see funny people. It's like New York.

We don't see as much crazy in LA because we're not out in the world as much.

Well.

Also, this neighborhood is so insular that like if we just see the same at eight like a thousand people over and over again, like there's just we're always at the same place as in this neighborhood. So Benson says, there's got to be more victims out there. I mean, this rich motherfucker like, there's more out there. So how do we weed them out? How wou do we find people?

Let's let's fucking go.

So he doesn't have any time to hide anything, and they go to visit him at his home at for Sutton Place, Stabler is standing next to a little boy mannequin wearing a German yodl outfit, and Stabler says, leader Hosen guilty, who wrote, that's the funniest line in the show history. I like, cannot I want to get that might be my tattoo because I really want to get eventually, like a heart tattoo traditional with something has to be in it.

And I was gonna do done, done, but I might get Leader Hosen.

Guilty and have to explain this full episode to everybody.

Yeah.

I also feel like Leader Hosen has way too many spelling errors hidden in there, like you can't trust someone to spell leader Hosen forever. And this house is soda fountains, arcade, games, toys, but he doesn't have kid, so and then Finn brings up a good point. He goes, well, he does make toys at his job, like he could just be working, like these could be toys and testing toys. He owns

He is a saint and Stabler.

Is like, well, has there any ever been anything kind of questionable? And she says no, and there are ten servants on staff and you can ask them and then servants. Yes, that's my next note. She called herself a servant, which doesn't happen. It's very Ramona Real Housewives of New York like, yeah, it's housekeeper lady. Like, I've never heard someone call themselves a.

Servant, right, so ya like something yeah, yeah, I know.

She said all these servants so Staybler says, well, we've heard about a secret treasure room and she says that's no secret. That's every child's favorite place. And they enter straight up a pirate fantasy and Munch says, pervert ahoy, I mean.

It is really like, do we know who wrote it? This episode's too good, the writing.

It's so funny.

And so it's a pedophilic pirate motif. Then Finn says, what do you gotta do to get booty from his treasure chest? And it's just like JJ described where he was molested three years ago, and there's a like a whole closet folled with themed pajamas and Finn says, back them up and hopefully there's some dirty laundry in the dirty laundry. I like sayings after sayings after sayings, but this one's more sad. It means, you know, seemen on children's pajamas. We don't love that. So tons of press

From the father.

Stabler says, it's a bunch of crap, but it is a pretty good lie, and it's like that you know it checks out in theory, Yeah, like why you would get a lump some yeah. Yeah, like everything that's the thing, Like everything kind of makes sense, like, yeah, that's why you have toys in the house. You're a toy factory guy. Oh you could have paid him for a patent. That makes sense, Like you know, this guy does have a defense building that is not super out of like the

And he admits it. He's like says the quiet part loud.

He goes all the time and smiles, and his lips have a shet on them that make me really uncomfortable.

It's like a really shiny lip.

And he has spiky, weird hair, very thick eyebrows, and it seems like they put powder on his face to make a Michael Jackson vibe.

I feel, yes, sure, yeah right, his skin is white, it's undeniable. Yeah, And he goes, yeah, what's wrong with that?

And Benson's sternly must remind him like you're a thirty five year old man, and he says, I would kill myself before I would do anything to hurt a child, and Sailor is a very correct rebuttle, and he says, pedophiles never think they're hurting children. You're just loving them, right, And he goes, yes, but not in the sick way you're saying. And he says, there's nothing more natural or beautiful than loving a child, and Chauncey goes, okay, okay, okay,

We're at the judge's office.

And the judge is played by Philip Bosco. This is Judge Joseph Peter Hun. He died in twenty eighteen at eighty eight years old. A nice, luscious life and he's been in six episodes of SVU. Novak and Chauncey are chasing the judge around the office and you know it's basically they're like arguing about the case they're doing their job.

We have enough evidence. No, you don't.

JJ's crazy. He's crazy because he got molested. What's happening, is there?

No?

And then the judge says, we are going to trial. There will be a jury, and that is what's happening. But then Chauncey, you know, isn't done and he thinks that Huang did the interview. Is it's wrong because he didn't say he was in the FBI, but he was just asked acting as a doctor. You don't have to say he's FBI. And the judge goes, I'll look into

Out of the predator's house. Yeah.

The defense attorney chance, I love, saying Chauncey. So then Chauncey says, well, these were pre organized and planned charity events and I don't think that sick kids should have to suffer for bad behavior of one. And the judge is like, okay, but that's it and let's side on the air of caution and no more entertaining children.

He is being charged for molesting children, like.

Seems fair, seems fair and you know, supervised only please. So we are now at a giant, giant kids party. There's another animal. There's a baby lamb. I know it's reductive. A lamb is a baby sheep, but it's a baby lamb redundant? What did I say reductive? So there's lots of presents and balloons and Stabler events and crash the pedophile gathering. Billy is wearing a like why did they make this episode so funny?

I don't think that has happened has made Billy rethink anything about his life. She is doubling down. He is in a pirate hat and he is like, our ladies get into the treasure room.

So basically, some neighbors called in because they were disturbed, as they should be with the child molester having a child's party there, and Stabler says, what are we celebrating they lower the age of consent? I mean, that's so funny, and he turns it on them and goes, that's not funny. And the detectives turn around to leave and there's not really much of a fight and there's nothing anybody can do, so they went down just to burn him a little. So they just came to asault him and leave, maybe

And we meet April.

She's a really sick kid, dark circles under the eyes, a big bandan on her head.

You know, it sucks. Her life is sad.

She is sick and it's the best day of her whole life being at this like amazing party. So munches back at the squadroom, like what kind of parents would let their kids around such a sick freak, And Finn goes it seems like they don't give a shit if they're getting a handout, or maybe some are naive and they are blinded, But what's going on? And no Vak runs in with a VHS in her hands, so you

And that's the mom's vibe the first time too. That's why she wants the door fixed so quickly. Is she's like, this has to be done by tonight. The neighbors will see. Like she's very concerned about appearances.

This mom.

They're definitely trying to set that up. I feel like, yeah, waspy wasp vibes. I didn't connect that with the door. That's really good because.

She just keeps saying people are gonna hear you. Yeah.

The dad comes to the door angry as Hall and goes, he's not here, He's at a place you will never find him and slams the door in their faces. Then there's a classic walk and talk with my favorite characters, Benson, Stable or Novak. They're talking business. There's no clues, like what are we gonna do at trial? Like what happens now? Like dismiss the case? And this pedophile runs free, like they really need a new plan. Well, basically they tell Novac, you better find a way to do this without JJ,

It yet, Like what are we gonna do?

And you have to prove that he recanted under duress can you do that? And then Novak drops a bomb and it's like, why didn't you mention this sooner? But Huang said that JJ can identify a birthmark on Billy's penis, but she says it way too loud, and then everyone around at the restaurant stares at them, and then Marlow Thomas has to go, oh, she doesn't get out much, which is true.

We've seen them out of paperwork. She gets more corky, more comedy. She doesn't get out much.

But yeah, and I've done this because we forget especially as coll like this has happened to me where people are like, please stop screaming, cunt out.

At this restaurant.

I just looked at my phone and it's eleven eleven. Holy shit, everyone make a wish our intuitions on fire?

Okay, so did I not tell you up top?

How funny this episode is even though it's about child molestation, Like they just cram the comedy. But yeah, Novak's got a lot of paperwork in softball.

She doesn't have time to party.

Novak is so passionate and pissed though, and is like, if any jury heard the boys statement, Billy would be guilty. But it's not the case, Casey. Stop, you're wasting all of our time, like we need more. Marlowe brings up the eighth Amendment, like, you know you have to confront you get you have a right to confront your accuser,

And it's like, oh, who's it gonna be.

And so then we're at corps and Peter herman Ak Trevor langham aka mister Hargatea, he is representing the father and JJ or whatever, and Novaka is fighting it, going we need to get another person, and the judge actually agrees, and the judge goes, okay, well, who who's going to represent JJ? And Marlo Thomas is in the courtroom and gets up and goes, I'll do it, and so she volunteers for the job. And she bounces up and she looks rich as fuck and the judge in her are good friends.

Oh my god, he says Mary.

And Peter is threatened, like excuse me, what is happening, but he is honored and she reps the sun and she walks up to the dad and introduces herself and says, I'm JJ's lawyer and I'm gonna need that document, thank you. And Peter knows what they're up to, you know, all these shady as fucking people. But he's not happy, and we get a drinking game. If you're drinking right now. He is so lucky, and he gets to say, fishing expedition,

Of this episode.

And so then Marlowe like goes at the dad and he's like, we want to talk to the kid, like we need the kid, and the dad goes, no, the kid doesn't trust or like you, and he actually brings up a good point. He goes, all of you guys, all your ada's and all of you. You broke our doors, you arrested him, you threw him in the nuthouse, and then he told you what you wanted to hear. That confession isn't working, like you guys did all of this fucked up shit to get this confession.

And that is a good point. That's what I mean.

The defense has like the Bad Team has really good points and moves and stuff where, yeah, like he didn't want to be he wanted to get out of the nuthouse. He'll tell you anything you want to hear.

Okay.

But also in this scene, do you see that the dad looks like mister Incredible from The Incredibles. I didn't, but now I could suck, yes, a large jaw, like this man is mister Incredible, but not in a good way.

You love him And the dad goes and you're never gonna find him. He's hidden, he's safe and you will never get to him. And Marlow pushes him and goes, well, if he recanted on his own volition and he only said that nothing happened because we pressured him and he felt threatened by all of us, then why are you hiding him? And he denies hiding him and goes, he just needed to get away and it's just it's just

And Stable goes, Okay, we're trying.

We can't a Marlow says, well, I work at a fancy law firm and I'll.

Get you guys pis. We have pis on retainer.

But I think that's kind of insulting to tell detectives, right, I don't know. I think it's kind of like we just have like someone that can be dedicated to this. Ostensibly, we have to believe that Stable and Benson are working on seventeen other cases at the same time, like in reality, you know, so I think she's just like we can give you guys that this will just be what they're

She's like, of course, like, oh my god, it's all my fault.

I'm so stupid, and Standlor is like, yeah, I mean, it is your fault, left if you left your kid alone with this man, and she's we find out she's seen Billy twice since they bumped into each other at that party and were April's pair rance the father was never in the picture, and then you know, unfortunately the mom got mixed up in drugs and alcohol and abandoned

Don't know if I'll be able to keep the juice down.

And it's really sad that she can't even but she needs to hydrate.

So the grandma's like.

Well, you have to hydrate a little, even though you might puke it all up. And it's just sad, and her bandana is giant over her tiny, tiny, little bald head. She starts explaining what happened. She says, there were tons of kids there and they played games and it was fun, and and the grandma interrupts and says, she got over.

Excited and she had to nap, and then what did he say?

And she's coaching her a little bit, but since she was tired, she said, you know, I would love to take a nap, and other kids nap there, and everyone was napping, so he took her to the basal room, the treasure room to nap, and she picked out a press. Everything happened whatever, a molestation went down and she was abused and it sucks and it's sad. So Craigan and Novak and Huang are spying through all of this, and then before we see that, like the little girl's nose

Like that makes sense, but just a fact I didn't need to hear, just so sad.

Yeah, And Novak's like, well that makes sense.

Billy is surrounded by sick kids all the time, like we need to fucking get this guy. But then they have to discuss pedophiles. They're into boys and girls, and Huang sent shivers down my spine saying, well, at that age, it's more about the hairlessness.

Kill me.

Yeah, in the innocence and they talk about like, you know, he has a Peter Pan vibe. Did you hear about the new Peter Pan theory that I saw I read on the internet Someone said, what if Captain Hook was actually a good guy because he only went after Peter Pan, none of the kids ever, and maybe he was trying to stop Peter Pan from kidnapping children.

He was trying to stop him from having all the lost boys. Yeah, well I don't know, just just a thought.

So Captain Hook is Stabler and Peter Pan is a child molester.

So now we jumped to Melinda finally, baby, we missed you, and she's with Billy and she's being so mean to him and I love it. She's plucking hair out of his head from DNA and she needs tons of it with the rude and he's screaming police abuse and and that this there's another funny moment where Stabler goes, oh, if it was police abuse, trust me, you would feel it. And Billy goes, has that a threat? Melinda? Did you hear that he threatened me? And Melinda goes, nope, now open your mouth.

Why?

So she looks stunning in a half up, half down situation with her hair, and Maloney's trying to rile Billy up, and they have like this back and forth about the treasure room and he goes, I haven't even been back into the treasure room since you ruined it for me. And Melinda has no time for anything. She has dead

Yikes.

Now Benson is looking at the picks at the squadroom with Maloney and says, Wow, it keeps getting freakier and freakier, and I love the way she says freaky. They got some info that JJ might be in Maine, so they're working on that. But also, April, the sick girl, never mentioned the birthmark on Billy's dick, so they're like oh, and Benson says it's because the girl had her eyes

I don't know. I don't get it.

It's like they're going too hard on clothing theft.

You like, yeah, clothing theft doesn't matter.

You would not be sitting in interrogation for a clothing theft, right, But she goes, listen, I need to get April closed. We don't have we don't have any money. And if Tripley was innocent, why would you go through all these lengths and why are you Like they can't like the Grandma's sad. She doesn't want, you know, her mistakes to punish April. And they're like, well it's happening, so like we don't know what to do, Like he has tons

I mean that's not a good life. Yeah.

Now, Craigan and Novak do a walk and talk, and we learned that Melinda's processing a hair found in April's underwear, but you know he has no pubes. No one has pubes. She doesn't have any hair, so what is it? So Novak just says, like, give me the results when you have them. Now back to more water. I mean, this scene, this episode is so many walking talks, so many walking talks. Now the walk and talk is Melinda Benson and Stabler,

She wanted to check the blood for STDs.

But the blood is normal, like normal normal, like hello, leukemia fucks up your white blood cells.

But there's nothing. There's no sign of cancer none.

Fuck, oh my god, her life is getting worse like And also, when they diagnose children with cancer and with leukemia, the doctors take a bone biopsy to confirm it, and it's done by drilling small holes in the pelvic bone and those holes never heal and April's X rays to her hips do not have the little holes.

She never had cancer.

This fucking granny bitch is a what is it swindler?

Grifter?

Yeah, well it's it's crazy, like this is truly like the fucking Gypsy Rose story ten years before that story actually went down, Like it's nuts.

So we're at the doctor.

We're at the hospital and it's the hot surfer doctor guy and he's this.

Guy is such like he almost doesn't fit like he fits for me as like a doctor on another show, but like on SVU, Like I've never seen a doctor that looks like this man on SVU.

He's just so like was a like, I don't know he's at he's a beach bum.

He's like a babatch boy like, yeah, blonde highlights, yeah, very not New York.

Yeah.

But he says, thank god you brought her in right now. She would have been dead in a few weeks from mercury poisoning. And wait what And so Nora was killing her own granddaughter for almost a year now. The grandma convinced her that they were too poor to go to the doctor, and so that's why, like the grandma needed to give her the medicine. But she was actually using mercury to make the daughter sick because it gives the

It's like really sad.

So then they're like, she lied to you and it sucks and she lie. You know what else did you li about? Did you lie about the billy stuff? And she was like yeah. The grandma basically told her to become friends with him. Aunt asked to nap, but she just napped on the couch and they were like, well, how did you know what to say?

And we get more. So the grandma would snip out.

All of the story and information from the papers about the case and made a scrapbook of articles and that April had to study them every single day, and then Nora would quiz her on the details of what to lie about, and she kept.

This book by all the cookbooks.

Grand said it was her only chance to get the money to give her the medicine or that she would die, so she had to do this to get medicine to save her from leukemia. And she goes, but grand said, she loved me. How can she make me sick? If she loved me. It's sad, but they did stay sick again, if.

You want to take a shot.

The granny is finally in jail, thank fucking god, and Novak's being tough on her, like she does not give a shit.

She's like, I loved the girl. I knew it was wrong, but but something's wrong with me.

And she does have an amazing defense attorney Cleo Conrad. I don't know how she nabbed her, but it's Jill Marie Laurence seventeen SVU episodes. And she's like, honey, there is something wrong with you. Let me interject munch husands by proxy, and it's not your fault.

And Novak's body language is so fuck you.

She hates them, and so basically she's like, okay, we gotta talk tripley and the grand throws April under the bus. She straight up says that it was April's lie and that the grandma believed it because April said it at the nerve of this woman. And then Novak, without skipping a beat, goes, we have the scrap book and.

It's amazing, and then all of a sudden, you know.

Cleo Conrad looks nervous, Granny looks nervous, and it's a moment and I love it.

I do.

I think it's my favorite. I call it the Martin Short moment. But I do love that one moment where the criminal knows they got got and.

Their face just switches right away. Yeah, I really like that. It's cool acting too.

Everyone looks worried, like I said that they got got, and she turns it again and is like, I'm innocent. He's a pedophile. We have to get this pedophile. I just yeah, criminals. All movies should just be filled with criminals. The best actors in the world. So and then Cleo's sorry to say this, but she had like such nice gold hoops in this gold necklace with a pearl, and

You almost killed her.

And guess what I'm charging you with attempted murder too, and she yells intosperation like I'm.

Sick too, I'm sick too, sick again.

So Novak go's, you're just a greedy bitch, and the jury's going to see right through that. Back at the squadron, Marlowe walks in and they did find JJ.

He's been at an uncle's house.

But then they all to Canada and escaped and they have no authority to.

Bring him back.

So now both cases against Billy have been blown the fuck up. But don't forget the Dad is still sitting in jail and marlow says he will not leave until he produces JJ. So like this, Dad is now sitting in jail, which he deserves it. We hate him, but like, I wonder what just because of the contract, Like, you're not gonna be able to use your millions if you're sitting in jail.

Yeah.

Craigan's like, oh my god, watch this and they turn on the TV and Billy is having a giant victory party. He invited the media. He's wearing a lot of green green suspenders. Hello, Saint Patti's Day, and he says that he's been vindicated and the children are the real winners.

And then Benson goes, it's sick. It's like five times yeah, and Stabler says, we will get him. We'll get him one of these chances. Like there's gonna be a lot more chances, unfortunately, and we're gonna fucking get him and then it on him, just like partying hardcore with a bunch of children in his pedophile outfits. And it's probably one of the more realistic twisted endings of SVU, which

Now fill me in, fill me in. Yeah, they'll be right back with the real crime. Welcome back.

So obviously this episode is based on Michael Jackson. Everyone calls this the Michael Jackson episode. Billy Tripley clearly has been styled to look like Michael Jackson, and he's not a huge pop star, but he's you know, got something that would appeal to children, which is like this toy company.

The money, I think the money, yeah, like the money is huge.

Yeah, I mean Michael jacks The amount of money Michael Jackson had was just like out of this world, Like I don't even think we can like fully get a hold of it.

Yeah, no one, Well, I think just like the way media is now, like who knows if anyone will be able to have that sort of a worldwide appeal. But like the Mike, no, Michael Jackson was something that I never that's he's on his own thing.

Yes, like fully known on all continents everywhere you go, icon of twentieth century entertainment. I don't think I need to get too deep into who Michael Jackson is if you're listening and you don't know, Like I mean, he's like a singer, dancer, a child star, grew up with the Jackson the Jackson family that became the Jackson Five, and you know was a.

Way hold on if you do not know who Michael Jackson is until you've listened to this episode of the show, please dm us we would like to talk to you.

Yeah, we would like to chat.

That would be I mean, I think maybe there might be some people that are like only in the twenties or something like young and might not know like the details of this because I grew up with this case in the news. For me, so like I've always like but even going through this, I was like learning more because I've never really done a full deep dive into what exactly the allegations weren't, how many there were and this and.

That, and I'm really strong I feel strongly like I don't want to hear r Kelly. I don't want to like give money to molesters. I don't watch Rede but because he's dead, I feel okay listening to his music. And I don't know if everyone agrees with that or not. But in my had him like the kids are making the money now whatever.

Yeah, I mean it's complicated, but yes, this he is basically the number one. Him and Woody Allen are probably the number one, like a like examples when you have the argument of like can you separate the art from the artist? You know, like can you listen to someone's music, watch appreciate someone's movies when you know something that they've done is wrong or whatever. So Michael Jackson was from a young age kind of it seemed like emotionally unwell.

I can't diagnose him, but he was. He had Gary Indiana, who's doing well.

Yeah, he famously had, you know, an abusive father who pushed them into sow business. He was the star star star of the family like fully so, but the father was always allegedly abusive, and he I think from age like five or six was in the limelight and like never really had a childhood. So for a lot of

It's massive.

I'll go into more detail about it, but the timeline of Michael Jackson's you know, sort of issues start as early as nineteen eighty six. He met a ten year old boy named James Jimmy Safe Chuck or Sepha Chuck. I don't know how you say those last name, but it's the word safe and the word chuck, who was playing a Michael Jackson obsessed kid in a Pepsi commercial

Everything to do with Michael Jackson. People were obsessed with him.

So Michael eventually befriended this kid, Jimmy his family. The family was given gifts and trips, and then Jimmy went on tour with him and they began.

Sleeping in the same bed.

So that was going on in the eighties, but there were never any allegations made, and the first official allegation of misconduct happened in nineteen ninety three and was made by a thirteen year old boy named Jordan Chandler and his father Evan, who accused Jackson of sexual abuse against

So I just thought rent direct is like the worst you can do.

But apparently in the early nineties it was like what Vanity Fair called it, LA's hip car rental agency. So whatever, I just thought it was for like loser comedians with no credit like my husband used to be because he used to do rent Direct. So what happened was the owner of rent Direct calls his wife and says get over there where to where Michael Jackson's car is stalled, so you can introduce him to your son, Jordan. It wasn't his son, it was her son from a previous relationship.

So but the parent, well, but the parents they didn't have like they weren't like Jaj's parents. They just wanted, like the kid to meet Michael Jackson because he's the most famous person ever.

Right, Yes, but there's more about the mom.

Like the mom, the mom sort of was into like

It was like a bit that's just a famous song, but it only played like a virgin.

I guess that's like what it says in the article that this Marrygo Round plays like a virgin. Like I know you're friends with Madonna, but like, how about like a prayer? I don't know, there's other songs we can do. How about Lucky Star that's cute for kids, Like let's do another Madonna song? Yeah, and so he bought. Obviously, he buys Jordan and his sister toys, takes them on like toys or US shopping spreeze, and eventually the mom started getting gifts too serious jewelry.

And then he.

Invites the family back the next weekend, and like most guests at the ranch, Jordan had to sign a confidentiality agreement that he would not speak to the press or write about anything that went on there. And I don't know if that means Jordan actually signed it or if his parents signed it, because yeah, I don't know that like a twelve year old kid is allowed to sign a document, but that is what I what I found

Hey is Wade Rout that's the choreographer.

Yes, yes, huge, huge part of this, but I will get to him. So also these Cassio brothers, Eddie and Frank, who were nine and thirteen, who had traveled alone with Jackson in the fall on his dangerous tour. What is happening Like who is letting children go with him while they're not even there like that?

I just don't understand that part of it at all.

I know, I wonder if it's just I mean, he was so iconic like yeah, well yeah, and he was childlike I get into it a little bit more.

But so Brett Barnes, one of the boys who was there, like told the TV station like at some point after there was when there was investigation later, it's a huge bed. We all sleep in the bed. But it's a huge bed, you know, Like it was no big deal. We all would sleep in it together. And so then at the end of that same march, he took the whole family

And that was like good enough.

Basically at the end, he said, I'll let Jordan sleep wherever Jordan wants to sleep, and Jordan wanted to sleep with him, and so she goes, all right, good enough for me, and the mom just said, like, yeah, let's let my thirteen year old son share a bed with a thirty five four year old man, which is what

So I guess, I guess.

Actually, up until this point, the Vegas of it, all the four days that the Neverland Ranch, none of the touching had started yet with Jordan. In April of that year, it starts. It starts at Neverland, and I wonder was he trying not to do it? And he was holding back the stuff. I think he was working his way up to getting him to sleep in the room with him, because now that they're at never.

Look they slept for three months together.

No, no, no, I'm sorry that this is what happens from the end of from April on. But now I'm talking about April, like the beginning of April. So I think what happened in the order of operations is like all of March, he spends whining and dining the family, working his way up to letting him sleep in the bed with him. And now it's April and this begins the three months. And this is also when the sexual, well a touching starts.

Got it in thee at Neverland.

But can you imagine outside of the molasting, but can you imagine, like Michael Jackson is staying at your house?

I mean, how do you say, I don't like? What do you do?

Like?

I That's just such a wild concept to me. I'm thinking like if it was someone now, like if Rihanna was like, hey, can I crash with you?

And you're no? And what's Yeah?

Our wild is like at Neverland, he's got a staff of fifty plus people that are waiting on him twenty four to seven, like food, chefs, you know, like everything. So it's like, why would you even leave all that to go? But I think it was like part of his grooming and part of the like we're part of a family. See I come stay with you like I'm on your turf now, you know what I mean? Like I think that must be must kind of a part of it.

So diabolical because this whole thing about Michael Jackson is like he's abused, and he's innocent, and he's.

Just like a childlike character.

But then when you get to it, this is like a diabolical, evil, planned, fucking pedophile.

No, and there's parts later where he as kids parents like can they come with me or stay with me or come on tour with me for a while, And the parents will say no, and then Michael will say something like well I always get what I want, so just so you know, like it's gonna happen. Like so it's, yeah, you're right, like he's we do see him as this

Yikes.

Former employees of the ranch said that a lot of boys were invited to sleep in the Shirley Temple Room and that they would often find the bed untouched when they got in there.

So I don't know that that's like they're just not sleeping.

I don't know what's happening, And that he was so Michael Jackson was so serious about privacy that the floor outside his bedroom was wired so that whenever anyone would come within five feet of the entrance, there would be like ringing ding dong noises. So very paranoid, but also

And all this stuff while he was molesting them.

But Jordan said that Michael began like it started with Michael rubbing up against him and eventually kissing him, and that like Michael is now taking Jordan and his family on trips all over the world. They're photographed together a ton. The kid is so cute too, Jordan, and then the kid is dressing just like Michael Jackson, like when they're on tour together, he's dressing like Michael Jackson, the hat, the glove, like the full thing. On a trip to

They divorced.

She married the wreck the rent direct guy. They're a strange now, Okay. So, so Jordan's dad is the dentist screenwriter and he was kind of originally jazzed about this relationship, kind of thought it would maybe help him be able to like get into movies and get some of his

So that makes me sort of feel like the dad has good intentions if.

It's like he wants he thinks his son's being molested, he wants he doesn't want to put him through a trial.

He wants Jackson punished and kept away from him.

So he's like if I can punish him monetarily, maybe he'll stop doing this to other kids, and this money will just go towards, you know, Jordan's therapy and college and whatever the rest of his life.

The lawyers refuse this offer.

Then there was all this custody push and pull with him and his wife, and Jordan finally admitted the sexual abuse to a psychiatrist that his dad brought him to.

Who like, because before that he was denying it.

Obviously he thought he was going to go to juvenile hall and that everybody would get in trouble.

And so his dad brought him to this psychiatrist.

And he disclosed, and so now the psychiatrist legally has to report it. So now it becomes a huge media story. That's how it hits the fan. And the dad had kept threatened to go public, but the lawyers were like, we can work this out, and we're like trying to

How stupid she had been. So, you know, I don't know, it is pretty stupid.

Michael Jackson's lawyer, Anthony Pelicano, is this bulldog like dirty fighting lawyer who actually is also a screenwriter on the side, of course, because who isn't in this fucking town. And he says, quote, if it's a thirty five year old pedophile, then it's obvious why he's sleeping with little boys. But if it's Michael Jackson, it doesn't mean anything.

You couldn't say.

It's strange, it's inappropriate, it's weird. You can use all the adjectives you want to.

But is it criminal no? Is it immoral? No? So don't worry.

Like his lawyer is also a complete like delusional psycho, so.

Yeah, like everybody thinks, oh, this is not a big deal.

Michael Jackson is a child and never had a childhood, and so that's why he is just having these friendly sleepovers with it. And I have to admit I before I saw it leaving Neverland, I was almost a Michael Jackson apologist. I was kind of like, I don't know, I think maybe he just sleeps in bed with these kids and is weird, but like doesn't actually touch them.

You know.

I really kind of thought I think I was trying to like excuse how much I like his music.

But then after I saw Leaving Neverland, I was like, I'm sold.

Well because also, all right, let's take the King of Pop part of way to permit if you found out a thirty five year old was sleeping in a bed with a thirteen year old, you would ever be like, oh, they're just sleeping together and they're not touching. It's yeah, you know, it's it's a fucked up thing. Whether there's like a boundary cruster, you just why do you go to therapy or the King of Pop like you don't like you don't bring a little child into your.

Bad Yeah, so obviously as what happens In this episode of SVU, the defense paints the father, Evan, as an extortionist, just a jealous father trying to get money. And the police do do a raid on Neverland Ranch and Jackson's La condo. They find no incriminating evidence. I mean, he's got a staff of fifty five people. I'm sure like everything's getting washed immediately. I don't think there's stray hairs and seamen lying around, you know what I mean, I

But they didn't find anything.

And Jordan Chandler did give a police description of Jackson's genitals and a strip search was made and the jurors felt the description was not a match. Don't have any more info on that, but they did use this bit in the SVU episode as well. And then in January of nineteen ninety four, Jackson did settle with the Chandler family out of court for reported some of twenty three million dollars. So I guess I hope Jordan Chandler is, like, you know, finding some kind of peace in his life and.

Well, because I'm also thinking with Neverland ranch, like I'm sure there's hidden doors and basements and like a book that you press and it opens something else. And I wonder what how warrants work? And do you get how the house has made architecture plans? Like how do you enter secret passages in.

A home like that?

And it also seems like it would take days and days and days. It's this massive, sprawling ranch like I don't even know.

Or he can have other buildings not in his name where he holds stuff like the amount of resources this person has to hide any evidences.

Yeah, he could literally have the evidence floating in a helicopter above his house twenty four hours a day, like he has so much fucking money.

But that would be the opposite.

That would be loud and obvious, that would not hide the pedophilia.

That would be like they'd be back. But can you get a warrant for a helicopter, Liza? That's the question.

So in nineteen ninety four, prosecutors announced that they're not filing criminal charges against Jackson involving three different boys because quote the primary alleged victim end quote declined to testify, which is presumably Jordan, and the state closed its investigation in September of nineteen ninety four. At that time, Michael's sister LaToya, who was estranged from the family at the time, said quote, Michael is my brother. I love him a great deal, but I cannot and will not be a

So who fucking knows what this family?

Well, yeah, but I forgot where I was watching this or what was happening with LaToya, but they it's it reminds me of the episode because of the spin thing where they made LaToya be like the crazy one, like fuck LaToya. But now decades later, LaToya was the one that was speaking the truth. Yeah, there's a reason she was like this shunned lunatic and.

She's Rue Paul's favorite.

Yeah, and this is the spin that they do, like, oh they're crazy, and it's like okay, well time will tell, and she wasn't right right, And around this time, Michael Jackson also marries Lisa Marie Presley, daughter of Elvis Presley, which was a full publicity stunt to draw attention away from the allegations and to make him seem like a head of a sexual man that likes.

Women, and you know, even though he really.

Had like no relationships with women, much like he had been on like four dates in his life with women apparently. One was Brooke Shields to an award show. One was Madonna to an award show. And these were kind of publicity stunts. And it's tough because, you know, a lot of people conflate being gay with being a pedophile, which is completely egregious and disgusting because they're completely two separate things.

But they don't say bad things about it. I mean Brooks Shields talks about it like they dated. Maybe the contract's still enacted.

Like yah, yeah, who No, I don't know, but I.

Remember that kissed with Lisa Marie Presley at the VMA's Think or Grammys, and it was hard to watch.

It was hard to watch for sure, and a lot of people thought, Oh, Michael Jackson never had a childhood, that's why he loves being a child.

But a woman.

So this article I read said a woman who observed him closely during the early years disagreed. I don't know what that means. Someone who somehow was connected to him said, quote.

That's what I'm going to be for Halloween. I'm going to be a woman who observed him closely during the early years.

Well, this woman said, quote, he loves childhood because he was a child star he loves to remember it.

Michael is a narcissist in the extreme.

So there's, you know, different ways you can look at it, like, oh, he just lives in childhood because that's kind of when he stopped maturing. But or it could also be like, no, that was the best time of my life and I just want to like like relive it constantly.

Well, Also, the stardom to him was a way to escape his abusive father too.

Yeah.

Yeah, he was getting love from the public that he wasn't getting from his family his father, I guess.

Yeah. And also his love was contingent on his stardom.

I'm sure his father hid him less when he was, you know, selling albums and killing it on stage.

So who knows.

So the scandal hits about ten years later in two thousand and three, right after the infamous Martin Basher documentary aired called Living with Michael Jackson, which is what triggered the next investigation. Now, I watched this when it came on, like the night it came on, and was like completely shocked by his behavior.

Did you watch this?

No, Oh my gosh, Like it was one of those things. It was like two thousand and three. I feel like everybody was like it was appointment television, like the Martin Bascheer documentary.

Is that when he went to Vegas and when shopping and bought a bunch of like sparkly things.

I think so.

And he's like up in a tree with Martin Basher, Like they're up in a tree talking like it's like you're you're I had never realized before what a child he was, like, how he was like a child a man child like I just never I don't know.

I liked the music videos.

I hadn't watched a ton of interviews, you know, I didn't really know much about his personal shit. But in uh, the documentary like was sketchy and showed other kids and stuff like that.

And so Thomas W.

Snedd and G who was the District attorney of Santa Barbara County who also tried to prosecute Jackson in nineteen ninety three, formally charged Jackson with seven counts of child molesting involving a boy who was an overnight guest at Neverland Ranch, plus two counts of giving the boy, who was a former cancer patient aged fourteen, an intoxicating agent before molesting him. Now, in this case, Jackson's lawyer is Lisa.

Why did I just say, Lisa, we're leaving it in. Look here mispronounces things too. How could I call you Lisa, Lisa? I'm just talking so much.

In this case, Jackson's lawyer was Mark Garagos, our guy who was at the same time representing Scott Peterson. He is simultaneously representing the man accused for the murder of the century with the pop star accused with child molestation for the second time publicly. And this guy has represented so many people, as we've talked about, like Winona Ryder, the girl who dumped her baby, Holly Ashcraft. Now I'm reading more about this guy. I really want to know how that girl could afford this man.

Well, because he does suffer publicity too, right, yeah, like he'll take a case for it. But I don't know the Holly Ashcroft that.

She was the girl who dumped her baby. They think twice the Skylar Fisk episode.

Oh whoa, Yeah.

So he was her lawyer and she was just like a girl from Montana who was going to USC So I have like no idea how she would have afforded like one of the hottest lawyers we go.

Do you think you would talk to us? Do you think we could try to book Mark Arragos? Oh gosh, I don't know, And I don't know what he'd be able to say. I don't know what he'd be able to well.

I would like to ask him, do you think he failed as Scott Peterson's attorney because he was too busy doing working on Michael Jackson's well.

Michael Jackson later fires him because he wants somebody that's going to work on him full time.

Yeah, and he took on too many cases Scott.

Yeah, So he was originally represented by Garagos, but then he was fired because he was too busy and he wanted the lawyers full attention. So after posting three million dollar bail the same day and surrendering his passport, Jackson is allowed to go free as he awaits trial, much like what happens in the episode. He gets bail, he goes home, he keeps partying with kids. So he's charged in late two thousand and three and it's not until

I don't know if you've ever read all that, Lisa. Of course I did. Oh, okay, of course you have.

I just wanted to when I get to shock you once in a while, it's fun. So I just did find out that it is the Wade Robeson project that was his. It was like a choreography MTV reality show type thing. So our viso fourteen says on the stand that Jackson masturbated him. His brother corroborates the story and they say they say that Jackson gave them alcohol and showed them pornography. The trial is a circus. It lasts

And then this is going.

To what you were talking about when you were like, why are we following the woman about two hundred dollars of shoplifting.

They were trying to get Gavin's mother too.

She was apparently a little bit erratic on the stand and snapped her fingers at the jury at one point, and she was eventually Now that she's in the limelight, she gets busted for welfare fraud, where she's getting like something like eight thousand dollars in welfare fraud. I don't know what that has to do, Like that doesn't mean that your son is well.

Welfare fraud is close more closely related, because if you're a con artist frauding the government of money, why wouldn't you fraud Michael Jackson with money?

Right? I think that's different than stealing clothes, But but I think stealing much. She chose a desperation for money, got it.

I guess you know, like you need money, so you would do anything, including like having your granddaughter who's sick

Of all charges so terrible.

And then in two thousand and nine, Michael Jackson dies famously doctor Conrad Murray the propofall of it all. And then in twenty thirteen, after twenty years of publicly defending Michael Jackson, Wade Robeson tells The Daily Beast that he was actually molested by Michael Jackson for seven years, starting at age seven. And then two years later, in twenty fifteen, a judge in Los Angeles Superior County Court dismisses robesons suit against these states, saying he waited too long to

I'm also wondering if, since he testified on behalf of Jackson back in the day, if that counts as like perjury.

Yes, they were like did you perjure yourself back then or are you perjuring yourself now? Essentially there was a lot of one like you know, back and forth about that.

If they fucking gacker HBO, I will I will go after Michael Jackson's sting.

They cannot bankrupt HBO. Do you think one hundred million would bankrupt HBO? I mean, I think it would be a hit, but I don't know if it would bankrupt. You're right, You're totally right, and maybe it will go down. Maybe it will be like an agreement that's like fifty million, you know, who.

Knows, but yeah, it's wild.

And like you you think leaving I thought, and Leaving Neverland was this huge bombshell.

There was all this information in it.

So let me describe what Leaving Neverland is in case you haven't watched it. It's James Safechuck and Wade Robeson telling their stories. These are guys who defended Jackson for years on various different occasions and now came through and said, you know, after years of therapy and kind of processing.

And they talk about.

It really in an interesting way in the documentary where they're kind of like we were in love, like we loved him, you know, yes, he like then he started to do these things with us, but like we didn't know and it was a very loving relationship. And you know, he was promising, at least Wade, he was promising him.

He lived in Australia at the time.

He's going to bring him to America, let him blow up here, put him in music videos, all this stuff. And these kids were like, could not believe that the biggest star in the world was paying them this attention, like they felt so special and like loved, and then I think didn't know how to process the abuse at their young ages, and then you know, as adults they have started to And that's what the point of this

And then.

And of course I'm talking about in terms of physical trauma, not psychological. Psychological damage is obviously very nuanced and deep in all of these cases with him. So you'd think that this was all gonna ruin Michael Jackson's legacy, but his album sales increased following the documentary, Like.

I think the same thing happened with r Kelly.

People are sick, but like you know, his his album sales increase. Louis Vauton ended a collaboration with Michael Jackson like his imagery, and I think he lost some kind of corporate stuff after this came out, but you know, he still has.

A very an estate that's very, very wealthy.

So in Leaving Neverland, as I said, both of the boys describe loving Jackson while and enduring the abuse. They give graphic description of masturbation, oral sex, anal sex, which they claim took place at Neverland Ranch and other locations. Robeson and Safechuck claimed that these acts with Michael were regarded as romantic and that they did not realize that

Want to you know what I want.

I would love the people that say that to give me one example of someone who lied about being raped and then had a great career, Yeah, or did get raped, came forward and every went you know what, let's give this bitch a show. I'd love to give one example of someone's life who's turned better after coming forward.

Yeah, And there's just when you're watching it, there's just like a there's just I believe them, Like when I'm watching them, I just believe them, like they have the details they have, like the emotional gravitas, like it's just it's all there, like you totally believe them when you're watching. And I think that was like what you talk about I when I admit with my tail between my legs that I was a Michael Jackson apologist for years. I think it's because I never heard a child's voice or

You know, it really changes your mind.

Well, it's really shocking how many people, because you know, we cover so many crimes where it's like, yeah, there was evidence the doctor did it and no one believed it. Like people don't believe any of this all the time. But it's like, are you fucking dune? Like why aren't you concerned a grown man wants to sleep with children? Why aren't you concerned about the lead like the lawsuits and the settling out of court and so so much litigious shit, like why does nothing but.

A red flag in your face? Like head even if you still are like I don't care.

Maybe maybe, but like to completely disregard all of this seems like willfully ignorant. It's just the amount of money and the amount of celebrity he had, like just a lawyer trying to spin it with like, look, I get how this would seem wrong if it was a pedophile, but it's Michael Jackson, Like it's it's like I don't think it's like you said, like I don't even know if we have celebrities that are like at this level.

Like truth.

Well, yeah, and like I understand why these kids were like holy shit, like yeah, I'll do yeah, I'm gonna. Like we talk about how priests, teachers, doctor, like all just regular professions have such impact on children and like who they're taught to respect and listen to. And then you have the most famous talented man alive on the planet wanting choosing you.

They go into this and leaving Neverland.

I mean, Wade's mother speaks, his sister speaks, his brother, like, you know, he estranged them from their father. Like it's like he did a lot of diabolical shit to like brainwash and groom these kids. And the mom doesn't seem like a bad mom in the docks, She's like she says that Michael wanted to leave Wade, wanted her to leave Wade with him for a year, and she goes, no, I'm not going to do that. He's my kid, He's seven years old. Why would I do that? And Michael goes,

If I was like.

Thinking of high school aged me, like I bet that would be my vibe.

Well, and people were saying he did it because he had a hard childhood, or he was probably molested.

You know, there's excuses all over the place.

But what I'm learning today is the evil, like the evil, predator, predatory nature of him that I think I ignored of, Like, oh, he planned this very well. Any updates for Macaulay Culkin, Like has he spoken up as an adult?

He broke his silence apparently around February of twenty twenty, which is a little bit after the doc came out, and said, and this was in an article that I found in the Mirror. Look, I never saw him abuse anyone, and he never abused me, he says, especially at this flashpoint in time, I'd have no reason to hold anything back. If anything, I'm not going to say it would be stylish or anything like that, but right now is a good time to speak up. And if I had something

Yeah, and I'm happy McCully culan was not molested by my art, you know, of course, I'm glad for that update.

Thank you for that.

I mean, I don't think I'm going to watch the doc but this is it's definitely. Yeah, what a calculating, fucking criminal.

Yeah, and I mean hopefully we don't let this kind of thing ever happen in the future. Like I don't know hopefully if there's ever, but you know, history repeats itself all the damn time.

Yeah, I don't.

I can't think of a celebrity that's just like traveling around with kids, and we know that kids sleep over at their house. But definitely the molesting of it all and abusing is happening, you know. I mean R Kelly should be in prison, Chris Brown should be in prison, t I should be in prison.

I mean, I don't know.

Yeah, Roman Plansky's up to no good again. There's like a fourth VICTI like he was in the recently raped another young girl.

I mean, whatever, let's get to our guest.

It's a pretty momentous occasion for Kara and I today.

Yes, we're really excited about today's guests, so stay tuned. This week's guest has appeared on so many iconic shows, The Sopranos, Law and Order, Original Recipe, House of Cards, and she recently appeared on Dash and Lily.

This woman is working and booked.

We love her and you guys know her very well from her multiple episodes on SVU as defense attorney Cleoconrad.

Guys are thrilling chat with Jill Marie Lawrence.

We cannot believe we are with the Cleo Conrad.

This is.

A very huge day.

You're our first defense attorney we've ever had on the podcast.

So welcome, Thank you, thank you.

Yeah. I think I would be calling you if I did it, if I committed the murder, I'd be calling you.

Not that I've done anything, but just you know, in the event.

How much do you think Cleo Konrad charged for her services?

Probably four hundred and twenty dollars an hour?

Okay, okay for twenty an hour? Love thaty? Is this a clue that she's a pothead? Not quite?

Not quite?

Love it, So obviously we want to talk to you about like your whole tenure on the show, because you've been on a ton of episodes. But this specific episode today that your interview is a part of is Sick, which is you know, it's commonly referred to as the Michael Jackson episode.

And I was wondering, like when you were on set doing it.

Where people kind of like, oh, yeah, this is a Michael Jackson episode, Like would people talk about it when it was based on something real like that?

You know, I didn't hear banter or talk about so much as Michael Jackson. But you know, I was telling an Alisa yesterday that I was having a hard time trying to I did so many episodes, so I forgot exactly what Sick was about. But when I saw it again early early, early, early this morning, that episode was appropriately titled. It definitely was. So there was something so so twisted and sick about it. Yeah, what what actually went down with? You know, the adults involved, particularly Grandma.

Actress Cindy Williams from Laverna.

Surely, Yeah, I was so delighted to work with her. But she was so that that character she portrayed was so sick.

It was so much twisted.

It was so twisted, you know, unlike what I what we have the world, you know, had seen previously on lavernessh Early. So I mean, I'm always I was when I was on that show. I was on that show nine seasons. That's you know, that's a long time, you know, recurring, recurring. But I was always defending some pedophile or some freak of some kind.

Yes, you represented like a murdering child, like a bunch of rich kids who won't stop drinking, like all these like a guy who was inseminating his own daughter.

I mean, you had a lot of really.

Crazy clients, That's what I'm saying. I feel like I would hire you if I did something wrong, because like you'll take the case, you know.

Yeah, I mean I mean really from the Yeah, all kinds, all kinds, from the router to the tutors, as my grandmother would say, from the router to the tutor, all kinds, all yeah, all kinds. Well, you know what, when you're litigating, you know, the first thirty minutes of the show is always detective, we're probing, and then the last thirty minutes is always litigating court scenes, interrogation rooms, if you're if you're you know, an attorney, you you really need to

And it's so relevant.

It's so relevant in all of the cases that you see on television today, in the media, in the news, how people are nailed, how people are found guilty, how some people are vindicated. So it was a big learning curve for me, not only as an actress, but just understanding the dynamics of how the judicial system moves and you know, what terms they make and how they have to you know, really go into defending somebody.

That's really interesting because I didn't even think about the medical stuff.

But you do have to know a lot of that.

Because I was going to ask you, how was learning all of the legal jargon, but you probably had to learn a bunch of legal stuff and bunch of you know, medical stuff too.

Yeah, because it has to make sense, you know, when you're when you're trying to fight tooth and nail or trying to.

You're litigating.

You have to pose your argument, and you got to make it make sense, and you gotta believe or make them believe what you're saying and what you're talking about. So yeah, it's it's you know, that's how I learned so much about medical terms. I mean, it's been a while, so I can't say I retained everything. But when I see some, when I see some, when I watch some of hey, listen, ladies, when I watch some of the marathons, you know, it comes back at you. It comes, it comes back to you.

That's amazing.

Well, so you watched Sick this morning to prep but are there because you are in some of the more heinous, wild episodes. Are there any that have stuck with you all of these years that you're like, oh, that one was rough?

Yeah, one of one. One episode was uh rooftop.

That one was about a bunch of rapes taking place on the rooftop of buildings. And every once in a while I run into the actor that I defended in that episode, and that was a pretty That was a pretty hot episode.

The other one you were in that is really rough as Burned, the one with Blair Underwood.

That was the one where he assaulted his wife and then there was all this back and forth. Yeah, she said, and then he covered her in lighter fluid and set her on bire That's.

Right, that's right.

Yeah.

And Blair's so sweet, he's such a nice guy. Yeah, that would do something doing something so horrible.

Yeah, but some of the guests, Yeah.

Some of the guest stars when they would come on, and I guess it would be a golden opportunity for them to kind of sink their teeth into something so gory and kind of grimy, because they're like like Cindy Williams and Blair Underwood. You see them, and you have

It's not you know, not trying to be Stolin. You're not trying to stylin profile on that show, you know.

But your character addressed well, she put some looks together in the courtroom.

Yeah, yeah, you know, and they were they were kind of gracious.

They were gracious with me about about you know, it was it was a great It was a great family to work with. And you know what, that's what I felt like I was coming on board with was a family because they treated you as such, you know, and that was that was a lot of fun. They let me also do funky things with my hair too, and I really appreciate it.

I was going to ask you about that. Oh yeah, they let me give it fun. You have like a different cool style every season. And I was going to ask.

You, like, was that all you like or was hair and makeup involved or were you just like, no, this is what I'm doing these days, you know what.

Hair and makeup was involved, more makeup, but my hair I changed it up and they they went with it. They one year, I think I had a buzz cut. The Sick episode is the one that I had the buzz cut with, and I was a little paranoid about it because I thought that my barber had cut too much off.

But they let me. Yes, they let me.

Kind of run the gamut with my hair, and that was That was fun.

That was fun.

That's really nice because we heard from we heard from Diane Neial that they like, you know, made her wear wigs and like dye her hair and do all this other stuff.

So that's cool that they were letting you. That's interesting.

Do you yeah, that's interesting. I Oh, I didn't know that.

I didn't. Well, the times I worked with her, that was I. I don't think she had on anyone.

I think it was her.

Yeah, I think it was her earlier seasons that she wore a wig a little bit right or and then later she like or she because she was telling us she had like very tight braids on under the wig that were like making her brain break.

But I wanted to ask you a quick question.

This is specific to the Sick episode, but it's also something you do in other episodes in all these scenes where like you whisper something to your client, like because you whisper something to Cindy when you guys kind of realize that she's got got and you do that in a couple of other courtroom scenes.

Because I watched all your episodes recently, are you ever saying anything real as an actor? Are you saying anything real?

Or are you just going like what do you know when you're whispering aesthetically?

I'm just we're just going with the moment of what's integral to what's happening. And you know that particular scene with her, she you know, she dropped the bombshells. She well, she basically was caught, she was busted by what Diane Neil said to her. So it just only seemed, you know, it was a seamless transition moment to just lean over to her and say, listen, I think we need to cut a deal here, because yeah, you know, you know, you've.

Just been busted, my dear, You've just been busting you know.

So at times, you know, they allow us to go into that moment because it's just it seems only logical when you know, if the person the purp has done something and they've been busted, it's like, well, okay, well at this.

Point, we need to go into negotiating something here.

Yeah, so that's yes, that that usually kind of just worked.

It works its way in that moment in Yeah.

Who were the people where when you saw the script and you saw who was coming in or what judge it was, or which detectives you were working with, that you were like, Oh, tonight's going to be a great day, or oh, I can't wait to work with this person. Any any particular people you enjoyed working with.

Well, every every episode was always exciting in some way, shape or form. I will say that I have worked with a few legends. One of one was I think my last episode, my last episode with them was with Jerry Lewis, And yeah, Jerry Lewis is goofy and funny episode he was.

He was so so much fun to work with.

And at one point I want to say that Jerry Lewis was probably I want to say he was in his mid to late seventies. He was in his mid to late seventies in that particular episode, and you know, he kept experiencing a hiccup with one particular speech, and sometimes that happens as an actor, you know, you're trying to establish a flow with your delivery, and he kept experiencing hiccups and I think I think even memory was maybe even an issue.

So they said, well, let's pause, and we took maybe.

About a I want to say we took about a sixteen seven maybe twenty minute break and we came back and he was sharp as a blade, on point with everything, and it was it was kind of like a lengthy speech, but you could tell that he had been you know, he had been at this game for quite a long time. And I think, you know sometimes that the actor, we have to work through what we're saying.

And that's great.

Yeah. Yeah, you got to defend a lot of a lot of celebs like Titus Welliver, Estella, Warren Britney, snow Blair, underwo who we mentioned, Erica Christiansen. You'd had a lot of get you got a lot of face time with the celebs.

You are absolutely right. There's so many that I that I did work with Titus. Wow, Titus has come a long way too.

Wow.

Yeah, Karen's a big fan of Titus.

I like, oh Titus is He's like.

The real deal.

Yeah yeah, and he uh that episode. He's also goofy and funny too. He's a lot of fun. He's he's as good to know. Like when I when I've walked up on the set and I saw Titus, I said, oh, this is the tightest okay, we're gonna have We're gonna have fun with this episode.

Because he's a lot of fun and I wish him so much. I wish him.

Well, well, I'm wondering, how do people stop you on the street.

Yeah, I have been stopped on the street at a time or two. I've even been stopped on the street when I didn't even have on my war paint and.

They walked and they recognized him, and I was like, wow.

I was down in the village one day, me and my sister, we were hanging out and I didn't have any war paint on that day, and oh, I know, I know who you are.

I know who you are.

I want your autograph, but I'm like, I'm not, I'm not like one of the famous ones. I still don't want your autograph.

You know.

So that happens, Yeah, that happens. That's so funny. Yeah, But my time there was wonderful. It was really great, and I learned so much. I learned a great deal.

You had to go up against the DA the eighty as a lot. So like a lot of your episodes, you're either going up against Cabot or Novak.

Yeah, I went up against them, uh quite a bit, and both the sharp actresses, and I learned a great deal from working with both of them. They were very giving, very very you know when I got when I first got there.

They embraced me and they were very very giving actors. And that was fun.

Even if you would go up against them, it was it was fun working with them in that fashion.

It was fun.

What are there things did you learn? You mentioned you learned a lot with your time there.

Well, I learned how you got to be on point when the writing changes. Sometimes the writing can change within a rehearsal, you know, because I was fresh out of school when I when I got on board with them, and I learned a lot more with the medium of film and TV because I was I'm conservatory trained, and you know, we certainly focused on the craft of acting.

Yeah. I learned a lot about that from SVU, yeah sad, from watching you guys.

Yeah Yeah.

And you started out on the show like really pretty early. I mean season three, you start out as Cleoconrad, and then you're on there through season nine, so kind of as the show is gaining in its popularity, did you notice anything like different like change as you would come back to set, like season overseason, like any differences from like three to nine.

The show definitely was picking up momentum. I would probably say that the one main thing I definitely noticed was how they decided to extract so much from real newsworthy things that I think that really grew over time.

I'm gonna be honest with you.

I think that's what's made the Law and Order as franchise, you know, last as long as it has is because most of these stories, if not all, are really extracted from real news stories, and I think that's what keeps it so relevant. And I don't think it was like that at the very beginning. I think as time went on and as they grew, because everybody grew, everybody grew, everybody.

Blossomed, even the producers.

They had their own discoveries in the process of producing. And I think over time that how it became as successful as it has been.

Speaking of producers, Neil Bar has been a returned guest on our podcast. Did you get to work with Neil bar and enjoy him as much as we do?

I did? I learned so much.

I really did. I learned so much. I consider myself one of the lucky ones. I've even had dignitaries come to me and say, well, God rest his soul.

He has passed on.

But David Dinkins, who was once the Mayor of New York City, he said one of his career aspirations and dreams was to come on the show and be a judge.

I said, really, He said yeah, yeah. I mean many many people would be enchanted and take the light in that opportunity, and I'm just so glad I did.

Yeah, if you were to come back to SVU, like season twenty four twenty five, would you want to reprise your role as Cleoconrad or would you want to come back as somebody different?

I would?

You know what I would take delight in in in the invite period.

It's a it's a great it's a great show to be a part of.

And I would I would embrace Uh, I would embrace it. Surely, I certainly would embrace it. It's they're a family, and they were they were great. They were good to me. I love them. The pieces and doing doing Cleo Conrad or or something there other. You know, I'm an actor, so I'm I'm required to do whatever, you know, I'm asked to do.

I tell people I do everything but porn.

Pretty much.

You know, that's pretty that's pretty much my situation, you know.

But yeah, I let me take delight in that. Absolutely.

Do you have any projects coming up that you want our audience to sort of look out for or I know it's been a rough pandemic.

I just want the audience to be on the lookout for me in general period. I don't have any he set. I do not have any set project, you know what. The last year and a half, Ladies has been busy with Vos voiceovers, animation gigs.

But I'm ready.

I'm just I'm ready to you know, take on the next project. I'm certainly looking forward to it.

But look to see me.

We will be looking out. We will be looking out for sure.

That was incredible.

It's always just a level of excitement when we get a cast member that like can't be replicated or anything like that. It's just like beyond to have someone that's and remembers and has so many good stories. I mean, that was like a thrill of a lifetime. We've been wanting to get her on for a while.

So yeah, yeah, I was so happy she's at the time, and just you can tell like that she trained it a conservatory, like she has so much like gravitas when she talks on the show, you know what I mean.

Like I just sat down with like a group of people and I was like, oh, what have you guys been talking about they got a bar and they were like.

Oh, we're talking about the douche ist schools.

And I went, oh, like colleges, and then I went, well, Duke, duh, And then everyone started laughing. There was someone from the Duke Business School. But like you must know, it's the number one. That's the number one douche that comes to my head.

Really, yeah, what about you?

I mean I went to a douche school, so it's kind of tough. Like I one of the summerhouse guys went to my college. Tucker Carlson went to my college. Like a lot of douches went to my college.

Oh wow.

But like I would say, you can't talk to somebody from Harvard without them letting you know within three minutes that they went to Harvard, you know. But I mean, if you're talking about like more bro douche culture, I don't know Duke is a good one. I mean I think of Northeastern schools like more that comes to mind more quickly, but like or I guess like University of Boulder or whatever, like yeah, like there's some like of these or like Arizona I think is probably pretty douchey,

Just a conversation. It doesn't mean everyone's a douche there. But what is the douchey play? No, I just fully admitted that I went to a douche school. But I'm saying, like if you're talking about.

Like frat boy behavior or entitlement, I mean there's like levels of douche you know, Like I wouldn't say all the kids that some of the state at like state schools are are loaded, but they might be just like misogynists, like creeps that are like let's get fuffed.

Up in roofy girls, you know what I mean. But yeah, Duke Scott, Duke's got a lot of problems.

Yeah, because it's like if that's your number one dream. But I know someone that went to the minister school there. I mean every there's different.

It's like if you went to like the School of Education or like even the business school, that might be different. Like I mean we're talking undergrad I think you know. Yeah, So this was an amazing episode. Obviously we've learned a lot from the whole. I don't think somebody like Michael Jackson could get away with what he got away with now, Like I think that that case has taught us a lot, but I also don't. It's like we said, I don't

You know, no, but you can get away with it.

What just happened in football with Cleveland, Like they got someone who had twenty two accusations against him and like paying and it was like the biggest football contract ever.

Like no one actually ends up caring about what people do.

Well, I'm I just been Pedophilia is a little yeah, like in the you know, of course, like there's always going to be fucking yeah, gross criminal guys doing shit. But I don't think traveling on tour with a child unaccompanied would fly now, Like I truly don't think that like anyone, Like I think PR people would be like, you can't go all Michael Jackson on us, Like I'm sure he's like a case study.

Now.

Yeah, it's more what's that episode we did with our cool Stevie Jones Stevie Jones. Yeah, it's more undercover pool parties.

Yes, and just riding the edge of legal too.

Like.

Riding the edge of legal that is cool and fun.

No, the world is sick like Munchausens by proxy is scary, and rich people who get away with pedophilia suck.

I don't know.

Yeah, But also this is the funniest I learned that a big an oversized pirate hat on a man.

I love that.

You know, the new show like Flag of the Dead or Flag of our You know, there's like a it's about what it's called.

Our flag's name is death or something like that, something like that.

But I guess it's about it's about gay pirates, and I guess a bunch of pirates were gay, and that makes so much sense. But I never clicked in my head. But pirate are all just gay and fucking.

Everybody's been gay forever.

I mean, like Greek mythology, everyone was gay, Like I just was just been gay and fucking whatever.

Of course, these pirates looking for treasure are gay, but it.

Never occurred to me they have. They're looking for rubies and shit.

Come on, But our friends are watching the show, and I really like the Nathan, the Nathan guy in it, because he was one of my favorite Instagram videos. He played the Noah's Ark gay assistant picking the animals that got to come on the boat.

That's right, you sent that to me and that was very funny. It was one of my favorite things.

And now he's on giant billboards in this show and my friends are watching. I have to watch because I guess it's all about just like gay pirates.

Yeah, and it's like, you know, we know people.

We there's people in it that we know also, but also Taikowatiti, who made like Jojo Rabbit and a lot of stuff that I like, is like a producer of it and stuff.

So I think it's probably very good.

Do you remember he was He was like threaple kissing. That was like a big thing last year.

Do you remember any dating Rita Aura.

Yes, they're nodding, they're nodding.

My fact check is just saying something and looking at Onalisa's screen. It was taikaway TV because he's dating Rida Aura, and it was Tessa Thompson.

Oh right, right, we're all canoodling.

So hot, like too hot, like the like the most gorgeous women and he's cute too.

Well yeah, but he not, I mean he is also like it seems one of the smartest, funniest people on the planet, and that adds for sure to the thing Rita Aura. I'm just like, it's like, fetch, It's never gonna happen, you.

Know, dude.

I listened to this other podcast. I listened to this podcast called Who Weekly. I'm sure I've mentioned it to you before. It's like about all the celebrities that you loved to know, Rita Aura is their queen. Like Rita they have a whole segment called what's Rita Aura up to? Because she is the ultimate who that will never be of them like she is never It is completely fetch. She is never going to hit her tipping point. Like

She can sing a song at the Oscars in perfect pitch, in a nice gown, and we the moment she walks off stage, it's like amnesia.

Yeah.

I don't know why, but I think she comes from wealth.

I have no idea. She's like a British.

Wealthy She's part of It's part of like all these Albanian pop stars right on Lisa, it's Dualipa, it's Rita Aura, it's a I think Ava Max and I think bb Rexa. I think they're like all Albanian. I think so, I think so clue. Well, I only know all this shit because I listened to Who Weekly sometimes and they talk about this. But that is so funny that you said that, because it's like that is absolutely like the vibe of

But back to.

Fame, Michael Jackson, all of this shit, I will say, I am happy that, like I like came around to realizing the scope of these crimes and like what happened with him, because I think I was a denier.

A lot of people have been deniers.

A lot of people are still deniers of what happened with him, and I, well, it's when we.

Talk about a lot, it's not our own personal thing.

Like that's why when we discussed it and said, like we're all a part of the system, so we're gonna believe the things that are fed to us or the big stuff, and we're kids and it's happening and you're like, no fucking way, fuck these kids, you know, or whatever the vibe is, and then you hopefully get perspective on the world and how it functions. But it's like we're all we're all possible to fall victim to, like having dumb opinions that keep up lifted propping this messed up where we live in.

Yeah, for sure, that.

Was like that was a I don't know how I got that sentence out. Didn't make sense, did it even make sense. It's like I was faking a presentation at college where I was just like putting things together that are like.

We are here too, for obviously with the what we've seen it. But I will say that I credit the Leaving Neverland doc as a big part of my come to Jesus moment about Michael Jackson.

And yes, but you said that even after it came out, his sales spiked.

Of course, yes, because people are like reminded of his music and they don't care. But I wanted to lead into what would Sister Peg do this week where I am highlighting Leaving Neverland.

I just think people should watch the doc.

It's like important, even though it's sad and it's only you know, it's two parts, that's it, and it's an HBO documentary and you know what, HBO might be getting sued and have to take it down, so you might have to fucking you might not be able to see it for that long. So that I'm highlighting it this

Next week's episode, we're doing Friending Emily Season fourteen, episode six. We're really thrilled watch along with us. We're so blessed.

Bye bye, guys, see you next week.

That's messed up as an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give, us or episodes you'd like us to cover. Shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

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