Shaken w/ Beverly D'Angelo

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our stories, Dune Done. Hello, Welcome to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

My name is Lisa, my name is Kara. We're your co hosts. We take you on a world win adventure of a recap of an episode of SVU, a deep dive into the true crime was based on and an interview with an iconic guest usually and today's no different. But first we catch up, we chat, we banter, and we have just so much to talk about. We are fresh off of a Northeast tour. I love that you said adventure in that little intro part. That was cute below deck adventure. That's us be Yeah, we just got

Yeah, all on hies that met us after we're definitely like those people really like you, and we're like, yeah, and we like them. They're educated, they're fun, they tip well, We're obsessed.

They dressed cool.

Someone in Philly showed up in Amanda Rollins cosplay like head to toe hand leather, a little silky blouse, little booties. I mean it was more of you need to start dressing and cosplay. She really blew me away. I was so shout out to that.

Oh.

Also, just okay, we our New York show was incredible. It was packed, beautiful venue. There were some employees that really fucked up, and we had a couple of our listeners fly from fucking Florida and be yond away at the door. So I just want to shout out, we are so sorry that that happened.

Brittany.

That's a shout out to Brittany, our girl who who came who?

And we love you and we're really sorry that happened.

And Jasmine, there was a snaphoo and we will make it up to you the next time we are wherever you want to be, so message us.

Yeah, the owner of the venue is definitely wants to talk to Kara immediately, not me, but.

You know, we tried.

But then the next day in Boston it was like our dude Clay was amazing. And then after New York being treated so poorly by this man. Then it's just it's like nothing is consistent with our life, Like I understand why our lives are Like the life of a performer is so wild to a lot of people because it's like, even when things are smooth, smooth, smooth, one dickhead can turn everything around.

And then the next day you're with.

An angel named Clay who's buying so many dips. He's just like bringing drinks, so positive, so kind, and then you go somewhere else the next day on a high sold out shows. Oh my god, the hotel is shitty as fuck. The electricity is gone. We can't check in. Are you kidding me?

Yeah, it's an emotional rollercoaster, but yeah, you know, we ride the ride. Baby, I don't know what to tell you. We have a great time, and we do. We also, if anybody missed it, we were on Watch What Happens Live? Truly a goal we've had since we like started the podcast when like exactly right asked us like, oh, are there any like press things you'd want to do, and we were like, we would like to be on Watch What Happens Live as the Bartenders, and our dream came true.

We had the best time.

We did have the best time. We looked incredible, like our color combos. Thanks to our friend Lauren Joyce, who made you wear monochromatic.

Yes I was.

I was so if anybody saw it, I'm wearing a purple top with purple pants. Not even an unintentional shout out to our purple conspiracy theory about auditors for you, but maybe a subconscious intention. And then Lisa was wearing this gorgeous, like green cool dress and I was going to wear my purple top with black pants, and my friend and I had purple ones too. I'd ordered the same pants and purple, and she goes wear the all purple, and I was like, what it had not even occurred

I mean, and we did look like Scooby dear Joker realness.

Yeah, we popped like because I was gonna wear the dress I ended up wearing into the live show. Everything just like worked out perfectly. Our friends who are Bravo fanatics also got to come.

Andy on the show.

I mean, he gave us some sass, which I would be disappointed if I didn't get a little latitude, to be honest. But the fact that he out loud said oh my god, I love the Bartenders, and.

Then he said, can you guys be my hype squad? It was like that never happened. Yes, unless it's Bruce Bassi's best friend. That does not happen.

Oh.

Also, we met our mole on the inside at our live show in New York.

That was really exciting.

Our person who works at Law and Order SVU, she came to see the show in New York. It was so cool to meet her. We jumped up and down like Mariushka showed. Yeah, like when we met this girl, we were like, yeah, it.

Was so fun. But back to watch what happens.

I think one of the funniest parts too, is me and you try to explain to our parents what we were doing. Oh yeah, We're like, we're on the show, but we're on the side.

They're like, are you making drinks? We're like, we're not, but we're the bartenders. Are you making drinks? We're not.

Like it's so confusing to people that are not in the bravosphere, But if you want to watch it, guys, it's the episode where the guests are Bianca bel Air and montes Ford and they're from the WWE and they were awesome. They were so cool to talk to and that it's their episode that I think aired on like one seventeen so or January seventeenth, so go check it out. It's on Peacock and probably Bravo app and every thing.

Yeah, it was I mean see being in the clubhouse was it was really wild. All my parents said was you guys looked so excited, and we were and we hope we get to We did not answer his questions as well as I think. We know we have it on the inside, but it truly was too overwhelming.

So everybody knows we didn't get them in advance. Like he was like, who's the goat of SVU. We were likeugh, lurishka and I see like, I mean, we were just like so excited and it was hard to get like Pithy answers out. But I thought we were fun, and honestly, he just I think he just felt our enthusiasm and that's why he liked us.

So I know, but then I would bother. But then I would bother care because I would turn around. I'm like, we should have said the hair department.

Yeah, you know, what about Maloney's ass.

I kept being like, Hindsight's twenty twenty, let's have fun. But Lisa is like, you know, if you don't know this about her from watch listening to this podcast, I don't know.

You gotta put turn your volume up.

She her love language is gift giving, so of course she comes armed with a gorgeous gift from both of us that she has fully picked out and wrapped and everything for his kids, like these beautiful all this bag of beautiful like trinkets and books and stuff for the kids. And I a skeptic as always, was like he might just give that to an assistant and never even look at it. No, the next day he messages and says, public comment, thank you so.

Much for the gifts for the kids. They're amazing, So that's all Lisa.

They were expensive, and they were expensive. It was weird buying a multimillionaire presence. But my thought was, he's given us over fifteen years of entertainment, and.

If we can't give him a little something back, who are we.

Yeah, it's the cornerstone, and his children are so cute and he doesn't actually need anything for himself. So it was just like a token of appreciation for how much she's really done for all of us. I mean, what would our group chats be about, what would we talk about, Like I would like to see an alternate universe where Bravo didn't exist.

And then it was like would I have have a friend again?

Like it really is such a glue between everyone.

But then that's another thing that was amazing.

But that morning or the day before I checked into the hotel, the night stand collapsed.

Yeah. I moved it back.

A little to plug in my laptop and it just went. I like fully broke the legs gave out of this night stand. Thank god I wasn't standing underneath. Thank god my laptop wasn't on it. I mean it was just like wild a wild start. Yeah, like these wilds up and downs of being on the road. Baby, I'm trying to think of did we Oh, we ate good food.

I don't know what else did we do? Well?

Before that, we were in Indianapolis and we shared the hotel with a hunting and crossbow convention. It was so crazy, it was And that wasn't the craziest part. The craziest part was, I mean, and the difference Indiana. We have the most incompetent hotel employee I have ever ever come across in the history of my life. Then we're in New York City and this woman, I'm like, you better be in med school.

What are you doing?

Yeah?

We just stayed at home, impatible and she was amazing. We stopped on her floor to say goodbye before we left. It was like, we gotta go say goodbye to our girl.

Like she was amazing. She just knew all the details, not a question to be asked.

It was like and this password is here, we go here, we have this at this time, this means this, this is.

That enjoy and it was like, excuse me.

But she was also covering people's shifts, so she worked like forty hours. Like we saw her at night when we checked in in the afternoon the next day. What we came back like, she just never left because she was covering friends shifts so they could go on vacation and just friendly, competent, incredible. I to print something. She let me get on her computer, like I don't know. And then in Indiana we both got charged. The woman knew nothing. We got in at past midnight. We got in at six am.

So you book a hotel for the night before because you can't have them turn you away at six am when you're fucking exhausted.

Right, Yeah, that's the thing, like the check ins and not till three pm. So a room's not guaranteed. You always book for two days. And so we get there, she goes, we gave your rooms away and we're like, excuse me. She goes, well, you didn't come before midnight. I go, yeah, but if we booked it today, you wouldn't give us a room, would you.

And she goes, oh, yeah, okay, and then.

You know, clickity clack clack, and then for there were other things. But then at the end she goes, okay and put your card in. I go for what She goes to the room. I go, our room is paid for we're performing at the comedy club. Oh you're right, we still got charged. We did, and she was so hello, and Carri just was like, that's why she's on the night shift.

That is why, that's why she's here on the night shift. She this is woman is not for dates. She's she's not ready for high, high traffic hours.

Wait.

The best was like, we get into the elevator with a couple of these hunter crossbow people later and Lisa goes.

So, did you guys all go do archery today? It was so fucking funny.

They all looked like they were like what, and then they and then she was like, like the hunting and they were like oh.

And then she was like, so what do you guys do?

Just talk about hunting and they were like yeah, I mean we'd rather be hunting, of course. And then later after our show, we went to go have a drink at the hotel bar and they were all in there. Lisa and I were two of the only women in the entire bar, and you bet your ass they approached.

But they looked like my favorite Murderer guys, Like that's what they looked like, like criminals on my Favorite murder, not my favorite murderer, the murder in Wisconsin.

What is that?

Oh, making a murder? Make look at making a murderer. Can you imagine Wisconsin fucking junkyards? That's what they look like.

They all just looked like guys that like to hunt. And they came up to us and were like, where are you guys from? And we're like try, and we were. Lisa was just giving them like newts as they say.

Well, I was already high.

But because I could talk to any you know, I met Kara's forty five to seventy people this trip. Okay, I met college friends, camp friends, high school friends, childhood friends. I met everybody, and I talked to everybody. I could talk to people. You can have questions what am I gonna do?

Oh?

How do you bleed out your deer? Get the fuck away from me? Like, I don't know. If you're not a feminist, I can't, Like, I can't try. If there's not a hope inside of you that you might have some sort of respect towards women, I just can't.

Well, we just had really nothing to talk to them about. Like they came up, they were like, where are you from? We said, California, don't you hate it California. Yeah, Like it was just like and then they went and sat down and one guy came back and we were like, sir, it's not happening. Well, this is what bothered me too, because if they came up and was like you're at

It just bothered me.

It just bothered me when they they came up and just said, you guys are fighting and it's like, no, we're enjoying each other's company.

But so that bothered me.

If they were just like, you can't be here for the hunting, it would be different. I just hated the intro of it all. It really it doesn't I don't like, yeah, because it there's a tinge of misogyny in it.

Yes, yeah, for sure. But the show in Indie was great.

Thank you.

Every you're married, Yeah, they're probably married. I'm glading ring.

But they're also at out drunk. We were pretty sober. I'm on shingles medication. I did have another flare up, and that's what my doctor said. She goes, Yeah. He was just like, yeah, from now on, when you're stressed, you're sick, you will have shingles.

So from now on, yeah, you just said.

Listen, like, when you're stressed, you're sick and your immunity goes down, you will have flare ups.

That is it? Like that is my life? Now? What?

But I message about the vaccine and me am I decrease. Oh okay, did you not tell me that. No, we spent so much time together. It's honestly, and there's no stop in sight. I don't even think we're getting a day off, like.

Let me tell you God.

But we also have to talk about the New York hotel in terms of not not one space to open her suitcases, but an exercise ball. They provided a giant exercise ball, but I couldn't open my suitcakes.

There were literally like TRX cables so you could like do standing like presses.

But those don't take na. Yeah, so that's okay to put a suitcase.

And they had a shelf made especially for yoga blocks. I go, how about a place to open my suitcase.

It was just it was wild. Well we didn't talk about the flight thing. Oh my god.

I had an earlier flight than Lisa, and I just thought that we were on the same flight. So I check in, I don't even notice, Like I'm like, I check in the day before, don't even notice. And so the whole time we're planning for a ten to twenty flight. But my flight's eight forty five. So we wake up at six thirty and my flight's like ready to receive you at eight forty five for your flight, And I'm like, Lisa, our flight got changed because I like wasn't putting it

But who but the initial like wake up was very like, oh yeah. I was like, because we had a rental car we had to return.

I was like, do I have to just run to the airport and make Lisa return the car and like a, like, I don't know.

What's going on.

That was the one time in the history of our relationships that I had to be like calm down, Yeah, calm down, because that's why I can't even be next to a tech because if anything goes wrong, I just I can't keep it together. But in this one moment, I was like, you need to relax.

Yeah. She was like I'm finding out. I was like, okay.

But also also the flight was so empty, like there was a guy next to me, and when I fell asleep and woke up, he was gone, Like I think everybody just moved to their own row. So luckily, the flights for Delta seem like they've been a little bit more chill, but really quick. We will be a couple of places in February. We are going to be at JFL Vancouver, and tickets are going fast, so don't forget to get tickets for that if you live anywhere near Vancouver.

Those are our three dates right now.

I'm sure we're going to have more to announce LATA, but that's our little mini Pacific Northwest situation.

I know.

That's what's so funny. People are like, when's when's the tour over? And it's like, I guess officially this one is done, but we're coming back ever, Yeah, we are, We are ready. We love doing the live shows. We have so much fun. Yeah, I love the PowerPoint and we love meeting everyone after and it's just been like so fun.

I ask.

I'm a complainer, so my instinct is always to be like, this guy's an idiot, but overall, like you can never take my complaints at anything.

But what is it face value? Is that right? Or am I wrong, like I am deep down always happy.

Yes, yes, even though you're complaining, you're very positive I am. It's like really fucked up, twisted my toxic trait. I complain even though I'm happy. Yeah.

Well uh and also.

Yeah, and a bunch of people came to shows like wearing the beanies, wearing the purple sweatshir wearing the like the zip ups. So if you guys are interested in our merch, it's really fun. It's uh, that's mess That's messed Up live dot com actually is where you can get tickets and it has a link to our merch. So just go to That's messed Up live dot com. See if we're coming near you, check out the merch. And that's all I'm done selling you guys. We should

One is old and one is young, and uh.

Like, the young girl sends like this little girl named Lucy on her way and she's very stern. She's like, Lucy, do not take your jacket off. I'm not gonna tell you again. It's like, okay, bitch, calm down, and Lucy looks, I don't know. Two at Max, I don't know and she toddles on off, and the older nanny is going on and on about how she's so in demand right now and another family offered to double her salary, but she just couldn't leave little Jack. He's devoted to her,

And the young girl is like, please give me the job.

I hate missus Pritchard and Lucy does not obey me, and it's like wow, a nanny who's never met a child before, this is wild. And the older lady is like, well, her mom spoils her. Have you tried timeouts? It's like timeouts barely work, but they certainly don't work for a two year old. Rosie today said to me, you should give Oscar a timeout, and I'm like, I don't even give you timeouts and you're three and a half. An Oscar has no idea if I just sat him in

Where did Rosie learn about timeouts? Probably like TV shows or something. We don't do them.

Sometimes I tell her, do you need to go to your room and be by yourself for a little bit, and like calm down if she's like freaking out. But I'm never like, go to your room and be alone, like as a punishment.

I know someone that I follow online. They have two.

Friend she's and when the friend she's misbehaved, they put them on the top of like a really high chair that they can't get down from, and there they have to sit up on a high chair.

We had a chair my little brothers. I don't think I had the chair, but my little brothers did, and we would send them to their chair and they just had to It was a chair in the dining room that faced a wall and they just had to sit and stare at the wall for a little while as

I'm the god of nanny's I'll straighten her out.

And this is when they realize, oh fuck, no one has been watching this child for like this entire conversation, and then nanny goes ballistic trying to find her like Lucy, and Lucy's screaming and we don't see where this kid is.

Like why would he, just like the captain of.

The SVU be there when a kid has been missing for like twenty minutes. But I guess it's because live

But she was also in the episode.

Head about the horny teacher who had a tumor, and then the episode Starved, the Dean Kine episode. I think she's the one that like tells that she's like always the one telling them that someone's brain dead and never gonna come back. And yeah, she's on the brain floor. Yeah, she's the brain goal.

Wait, I wonder if like throughout the years, the different doctors are on different floors, or if it is all just like e er triage like that kind of stuff.

But I don't know.

I do wonder now if she's the head girl, like if the surfer guy has a specialty, or like they're always in different.

Hospitals too, like the Saint Mark's, and like other times there are other ones like yeah, so, but I've not I just wonder. I wonder if they all see each other at a conference every year and they're like, what do you think about stable?

Or what a hot head?

You know? Like, I wonder if they talk about it. Oh, the doctors have their own Christmas party.

Anyway.

She explains that Lucy has intercranial bleeding and a laceration on the back of her head, but no skull fractures, so she basically has like a cut on the back of her head, but not not enough that it like caused the intracranial bleeding. So they're on her way to surgery right now. They didn't do a rape kit because her clothing was all intact, and they did a quick loom a light and didn't find any seamen and you know, so I guess we're putting that to bed. Craigan tells

So they go talk to the nanny. They're asking about the.

Strange guy, the like quote unquote freak that was hanging out and she said she never saw him, but Veronica did and she's like, and I'm there every day with Lucy, so it's like, weird, I've never seen this, this like, you know, creep, as she describes, and Sarah is saying she doesn't remember any weird strangers at all. And that's when the mother, Evelyn Pritchard, arrives and she's you know, oh Lucy, where are you? Very dramatic. And she's played

Well. She was also another Svu. Yeah she is. What is that one with your guy with Titus?

Oh yeah, with Bosch or whatever, what's his name, Welleger Titus Welliver, she is. So this is one of my It is one of my favorite episodes. But like, Titus plays a bad dad and the daughter's found on the train tracks and she's abused and has marks that she's been tied down. And the dad, we find out, like wants tons of kids, but the mom, Evelyn, can't get pregnant and so like, I don't know, but he also lets other people fuck her to get lots of kids.

She's obviously distraught. She goes right in for Sarah like how could you let this happen? And then she just starts monologuing about like I don't know what I'll do if I lose my daughter and this and that, and she starts sobbing into Stabler's chest and is like why is God punishing me? And Stabler's like, oh, another god fearing person like myself and he directs her to.

The hospital chapel.

They go talk to the other nanny, Veronica Nash, and I knew this woman was familiar, and she is, and here's who she is. Her name is Olga Meredith. She plays Abuela Claudia in In the Heights God and in Incanto she is the singing voice of Abuela Alma. So if you're a person that has watched in Kanto seventy five thousand times, you've heard this woman sing when she's.

Like the miraculis you just you that's her.

And she's been in five episodes of SVU in more recent seasons as Judge Roberta Martinez in seasons eighteen through twenty two.

She's a judge.

So we've seen this woman around and we've heard her voice. A legend a singer, and anyway, this one, the character though, thinks she invented nanny ing. She says, Sarah's a babysitter, she's not a certified nanny, and this happens when children are left with unqualified caregivers. And she says she noticed the creep and Sarah didn't because she's better trained. And at first she thought this dude was just a dad trying to get candid shots of the pictures of the kids,

Suddenly there's like.

A reporter from the trib and Elliott's face and he's looking for a scoop and I'm like, have you ever gotten a scoop from Elliott? Stabler sir like, I don't know why you think this is going to happen, and the convos seamlessly blends into Stabler running into CSU Captain Jude at Ciper. She's like, sorry, I tried to get the guy to Scraham, but no dice. She says, the area where the girl was found was totally clean. Oh,

So back at the precinct.

Twang is like film is a weird choice, Like pedophiles love photos, but they have gone digital, like they don't want to get busted taking their film to get developed. So unless you have a dark room, it's not really a great, you know, a great move. So he just says it's a risky move for a pedophile. And Craigan enters with the Goods about the fingerprints from the film box, and they belong to Dennis Papillion and he.

Has a record for burglary.

He works at a drug store on Broadway, and he fits Veronica's description, which seems like the description of most men.

They go to the drug store.

This guy's operating the photo kiosk, So this is a full red herring. He's been at works at seven am. The reason his film prints are on the film is because he sells the film. And he remembers developing the film for a guy who brought in a bunch of pictures of kids playing really shit and he just hands them this guy's pictures and his address and name, and his name is Ronnie Iickels, and he's on twenty ninth Street.

But back to the drawing board, Liv walks in.

She's in this episode, like very briefly, she's this is a very stabler heavy episode, we don't get a lot of live she walks in. They're talking about how Lucy's still in surgery. Elliot lays out all the photographs that they got from this guy and their time stamped, and so they really kind of set up a whole timeline

Hart's, I know that's shaken.

It's obviously something very serious, but I can't something about shake and bake. Do you remember those commercials? It's shaking bake and I helped, So you really do?

Ok I did.

I never did it, but it does sound fun like it seems I never did it.

Yeah, I probably would have loved it anyway. Shaking bake Shaking baby syndrome so hard to say. The doctor says, it's hard to say. What so disrespectful.

I know we love babies, but it's it is just like, so the baby was shaken baked. I don't know, but there is a more modern term, and we'll get it. Oh yeah, probably gonna get ye. We're staying in this fantasy of the early two thousands.

Exciting.

So yeah, the doctor says, it's hard to say what her chances are, but if she does recover, she'll probably have permanent brain damage. Someone shook this kid so hard it damn near killed her. And Stabler is concerned because you know, he gets his concern face on because you could just see like the flashes of all his own

She was just bleeding in her brain. She had to have a full.

Operation, like where her like head was cut open to like relieve the pressure of the bleeding. Because when she fell, her head snapped back so quickly, and when you get older with age, it's more likely to happen.

But she was so scary a doctor, So what how did she know she was having symptoms? Because I feel like it's dangerous. Some people die because they don't know.

After about five weeks, she started having horrible headaches, like the headaches came in but it didn't happen right away, And then she went to the doctor immediately. Yeah, and then she went to the doc. Well, finally we like made her. Doctors are notorious for the shit. She like will not go to the doctor when she has a problem. We forced her, and I think my brother did, and they brought her and finally we found out what the fuck happened, and she had to have a whole operation.

Was so scary.

So definitely, if you have a bad fall, check it out, get checked out.

But can they see right away, you said?

Five weeks later she realized, like if she went to the doctor the next day, how would they know.

I mean, yeah, you're right, you're right, maybe it would take it. It would have taken longer. But I think my mom did ignore the headaches for longer than she should have. If you have like persistent headaches, you gotta go get checked out it.

Because you never know.

Scary because you know they don't know what happened to Bob Saggett yet really, but he did have like a brain injury, like someone like there was something And I wonder if that could happen where you get hit but then for a long time comes in. It's really I didn't realize that this this is scary. I didn't realize, yeah, this.

That can happen.

Yeah, And I don't think a subjurb molhemotome like on its own is like yeah, but you just have to. And I think this girl was shaking a lot harder than my mom's fall.

You know what I mean.

But just the way that my mom's brain like I think smacked the back of her skull. It did a little bruise. But anyway, Melinda's explaining all this, she has a fucking doll that she shakes. Casey Novak's there taking this all into Then she shakes an egg and a jar to observe, to basically demonstrate what happens. I'm like, you have so many props, Melinda Warner, the Gallagher of Emmy's. And Novak is like, so you can testify that shake and baby syndrome is the only cause, the only thing

The caption over her says mirthless chuckle. I was like, get me a T shirt that says mirthless chuckle.

So funny.

She goes, I haven't dated since my husband died, and she's like, I worked late and when I got home, Lucy was asleep and I hate working late, but I got to get the overtime, babe. And so Lucy was alone with Sarah basically for like all of these two days because of how much the mom.

Had to work.

So they're like, well, what's your feeling on Sarah, And the mom's like, she's okay. I mean I want someone with more experience, but I can't afford it. And then she's like, I caught her yelling at Sarah once, but if she had hit her, I would have fired her. Sometimes she sees bruises and marks on Sarah on Lucy, but Sarah always says she fell down or got hit at the playground, and I was like, yeah, probably by my brute of a son, Oscar. He just walks up

He's been such a gentle little boy.

I can't believe he's out there hitting.

But he has Rosie because Rosie's taken things from him. Rosie's in his grill, and now he's like, now I fight back. He's like, I'm older, I can walk. He's Jeffer Lopez exactly, yes, exactly. He's been taking taekwondo on the side and he's like, now I fucking rise up.

And I don't know.

He just goes up to random kids and pushes them, and I'm always like, but he smiles when he does it. I think he thinks he's being nice and playful. Anyway, Now Stabler is talking to Sarah the nanny again, and she's like, well, my hours are eight to six, which a brutal, fucking.

Long day with a child.

I'll say that my hours are eight to six, but Evelyn never gets home till after nine, and she and he's like, wow, those are long hours. Like Stabler's really trying to like befriend her and he's and she's like, yeah, Lucy was a colicky baby and now she's a screamer. She has huge tantrums when her mom goes out. And he's like, Oh, you couldn't pay me to do what you do. I hear a kid scream, It makes me insane. And it's like, yeah, good thing, you're never around to help raise your kids.

Tabler like, I'm.

Shocked there's not more FaceTime with him and his kids. Oh, I guess there's no babies here. Maybe if like baby Elliott was ready around. Yeah, but they usually try to make you know he's holding a baby then thinking tie it.

In, yeah, exactly.

Yeah, but you can tell he's trying to get her to trust him by being like, yeah, these fucking kids, am I right? Like, girl, I feel you, you know. And she admits that she spanked Lucy like a little while ago when she threw a toy at her even though Evelyn told her not to.

And that's wild too. I mean, I guess twenty years a go maybe was a different time.

But I've never hit a kiss, smacked a kid that I babysat for ever, or my own kids.

But I don't know. It just feels like worse to smack a kid that's not yours, Like.

You could get in like I would never smack my own kids, but you know, I wouldn't smack. I wouldn't even tap a kid on the butt with like a little spank for a kid on babysitting for But I used to expect my brothers, I guess, but not not for discipline, just to terrorize them.

Yeah, I never had the urge to hit a kid. Usually when kids are really bad, I would just be like I would just give up and be like, fine, you want to throw it through.

It not my life. I'm not coming back. What about if there's a kid crying in first class? Ever had the urge?

Then no, because I feel bad for the parents. I really do. I even if I'm annoyed or whatnot. I'm never like pissed at a kid and I feel bad. Yeahs normal, That's not true though, if you're not doing anything.

Yes, that's what I always say.

If the parents are scrolling their phone while their kid is screaming on an airplane, then I'm mad, you know.

Yeah, of all my years of childcare and camps and all of it. Like, I've also never been in a physical fight with an adult. Like I just don't think that's my urge in any way. Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean I used to smack around my little brother. We would smack each other.

But like I've not I always say I've never physically hurt anybody I'm not related to, Like it's only my siblings, you know, Like I've pulled my I've pulled the shit out of my sister's hair when I was a kid.

Damn.

Anyway, she finally gets that Elliott thinks she's the one that hurt Lucy, and she's like, wait, you don't think I did I didn't do anything. And then they're like, well, then why don't you take it. He's like take a polygraph and she's like, I'm scared, and then we think she's about to confess, but twist, she confesses to stealing from the mom's purse. She's like, I take money from the mom's purse, five or ten bucks at a time.

But it's like, babe, this is s view.

They don't care about that, the nice confession, but because I believe that she wouldn't do that, like wow, you know, she.

Does get upset at the idea that she's gonna get busted for stealing maybe a total of one hundred dollars, and so you know, Stabler buys it. He's like, I don't think she did it. And Novak's like based on what and he's like, my gut. She's like two bad, your gut's not admissible in court, babe, And Huang's like, well,

That's like making you think that she didn't do anything.

Craigan shows up to drop a bomb that the trib just posted a story, a published a story because it's actually not the Internet about this, and that a witness saw Sarah abusing Lucy and the piece was written by Ian Felson and done done.

It's the guy we met earlier at the park.

So Stabler shows up to talk to this reporter who's out waiting for a purp walk, like a full TMZ reporter. And Stabler's like, give me your witness and I'll give you exclusive on the arrest. And the guy's like, no problem, calls his w andess on his flippity flip phone and he's.

Like, most journalists are so endo up keeping their sources private. It's like interesting this guy's but I think it's because this is a shitty paper.

I think this is supposed to be like the poster like a rag. And the guy's like, oh, I guess I'll ask her if she's okay with it. If you're going to give me exclusive on the arrest, like if it does something for me, you know. So he calls his source and he and then he gets off the phone with her and he's like, yeah, she says, she's down to talk to you.

It's Veronica Nash Done Done.

That's the other nanny, and we've already talked to that bitch, So what the hell she knew more? And she didn't say. Obviously, Stabler is not going to take that well. So now he's over at her place and he's like, you never told me any of this, and she's like, well you never asked. I thought we were focusing on the pedophile picture taker. And he wants to know what she told the reporter exactly, and she starts talking major shit about

Like they're all wilful and defiant.

Sarah can't control her and and gets frustrated and hits Lucy, this is what Veronica is alleging, and she says she's seen it more than once, and then she said a few weeks ago they took their kids to the museum and Lucy was going off and a staff member yelled at Sarah to get control of her, and then Sarah smacked Lucy across the face hard. So now like a

She wanted to touch everything. We love that.

So she's acting like she appreciates Lucy's kind of like wild behavior, and she's like, it's an interactive play site.

We're down, you know.

And then she said we didn't really care that she was being loud and touching all this stuff. It was the nanny who got pissed and she hit the little girl really hard. And then she's like, I went to it had a security guard, but when I got back, they were gone. So then he shows the woman, the teacher lady from the museum. I don't know what to call this, this museum like docent. I don't know who she is, but she works at the museum with the children,

She's an interrogation.

She's like, well, Lucy deserves a spanking, she needs discipline, and he's like, you're sick, lady. You need attention so badly you run out and lie to a reporter, which is wild, Like why would you go to a reporter just to have your name in the paper? I guess is what Saber accuses her of. But it's like, you're the one that's been smacking kid. It's like, Erica Jane, why are you going on a reality Why is her husband leting on a reality show when he's got a

Elliott? Is it her or yourself? And He's like, I'm just pissed.

I spent a whole day chasing around this woman's lies when there's like a little kid in the hospital dying and I can't, like I'm not getting anywhere on her case. In walks Munch with the results of Sarah's polygraph test and she passed with flying colors, which doesn't matter.

Polygraphs aren't real.

They don't met like they're easy to beat, apparently, and they don't called up in courts. I don't really know why that exonerates her, but I know she didn't do it. But I'm just saying when they rely on a polygraphic confuses me. Munch says, the only thing the trip is good for is lining my bird cage. And do we think Munch has a bird?

What do you think?

It's just a figure of speech. He would he would have a fucking bird. He would think you're reptile.

Yeah, and his bird would be named like Socrates, yeah, or what's what's like a grassy knoll reference or something like something about jfk assassination. So anyway, Sablor head's bow. I really think he has a bird that talks. I really do.

Yeah.

Yeah, maybe his bird is named my ex wife, So whenever he talks about my ex wife, it's the bird he's talking about. Anyway, Sablor heads back to the hospital and Evelyn's like by her daughter's side, and it's so sad. We're not really getting a full look of this baby, but we're seeing a very tiny body in like a crib with around the head bandage and like tubes. It's sad, and Evelyn's like any updates detectives and she's like well, and he's like, well, Sarah's in the clear.

So she's like, well, then who hurt Lucy? And he's like, why don't you tell me, bitch?

And he's like, you and Sarah are the only ones that were with her, so what's up now? We got to look at you or what's happening? And suddenly she has more info. Suddenly she's like, okay, I should have told you before, but there was someone else. I just didn't think he could have done this. And it's a man I've been seeing. His name is Drew Farmer. He's married, and I did leave him alone with Lucy.

Done.

Done, end of act two, top of back three. We got Drew Farmer. He is her boss and she's been having an affair with him for a couple of months. And that explains all the overtime. Oh and I didn't catch that. Yeah, yeah, so all the time she's been at the office.

He also looks familiar. Who is this guy?

I don't know one of the ones I didn't look up. Well, they bring this guy in and he's Deny, Deny. He's like, Evelyn's just an employee, and it's like, sir, they've already brought you in. They fucking know everything. She's the only one working overtime that's on your support staff. And guess what, she only works overtime when your wife is.

Out of town. Done done.

He says he never touched the girl, so it's a full admission about the affair. And he's like, if my wife finds out, she'll cut my ball off, and Stabler's like, criminal court will do worse, and he's like, I don't know what happened to Lucy. Sabler is like painting the scene and he's like, you're having a nice romantic evening. Then your girlfriend has to go out to the store, and then the kid wakes up. She won't shut the fuck up. It's you're not gonna get your rocks off.

All assholes, but like I don't know if I if everyone knows puke is dangerous, you know what I mean?

Like I definitely think you tell a mom when their kid threw up. Well, I wouldn't clean it up, Yes, I would go your kid puked, your kid puked, here you go, yeah, exactly, But you wouldn't be like, uh, it happened, everything's fine. Didn't hear a word from her, Like I don't know that, like you know, And so Craigan's like, all right, well, let's go back to the

L shaped like a too legit to quit.

Elle And then she runs this machine and she goes, it's a match. So she's measuring the size of her hand. Not sure how that's a legal way to identify someone, but here we are and she says.

I'm a good mother.

I didn't hurt Lucy, and they mirandize her as they take her ass away.

Now top of act four.

In interrogation, Stabler tells Kasey he didn't get a confession because Evelyn lawyered up and a jury feel will not feel bad for a woman who scrambled her kid's brain, is what Novak says. And then Elliot, it's like every parent has been there, and they're chatting about Stabler's parenting woes, which I'm like, when are you ever doing it? And in walks the amazing fucking legend Beverly di'angelo, who we all know and love, and she's playing defense attorney Rebecca Balthus.

I was like, Lol, that was getting me.

And then Balthus is like, no, no excuses, She's innocent and I'll prove it. She's really good. I like her a lot in this. So we cut, even though I do think she's defending a baby killer. So we cut to court. Melinda is testifying that in her opinion, Evelyn is responsible, and then she rests her case to Casey rest her case, and here comes Beverly and she's like,

I'm reading it like she said it, like she memorized that shit.

And she's basically making the argument that this rare disorder called HLH can also causes brain bleeding and eye bleeding. And Melinda's like, sure, maybe, but it wouldn't have caused the rib fractures. And she's like, well, they gave her CPR in Central Park that could have caused the rib fractures, and what about the posterior fractures that would have been they could have been caused by Elliott Stabler who grabbed her and ran out of the park with her. And it's like, did they give her CPR?

I thought she was.

Breathing anyway, where's all the hand measuring evidence?

Now?

Huh?

Why are we not talking about how the hand evidence matches the mom We've just thrown out the hand evidence. It's like how we got her and now we're just not talking about it anyway. The only way to determine HLH versus shake and baby syndrome is an autopsy. It's like CTE, where you can only find out after someone dies if they had it.

I didn't know that about ct Oh.

Yeah, you can't confirm ct until you chop open the brain and look inside. So while it's very obvious sometimes that someone has it, you can't really confirm it. So she's like, so it could have been HLH, and Melinda has to admit, yes, there is a small possibility it could have been that, but it doesn't look good for the prosecution. So now Evelyn is up on the stand testifying about how she always dreamed of having a baby

They seem like smart New Yorkers, Like what the fuck I know? I don't know.

Maybe maybe young I'll be honest, knock on wood. I don't have a life insurance policy. I gotta get one. But it's expensive. How expensive?

I don't know.

I should just get one. It's stupid. I need to just add it on to my plan. Yeah, Codo Insurance, go visit Vicky. Yeah, I want to interact with Vicky on a professional level.

No, it seems like she is really good at her job because Brian moylan went to like Mexico for some conference to meet her and like do Codo insurance stuff, and I think she's like pleasant day to day wildly like, I don't know, but she is good at her job. I think, Yeah, but don't go to Codo Insurance. I take it back free ads for her, but I probably just gonna bundle it with my home in auto. But yes, I'm also not shaming anyone who doesn't have life insurance. I know nothing about it, but seeing.

You are correct at their vibe of having a nanny and working at an ad agency seems like her husband would if you have the like, I don't know, you're right, they seem like the vibe of people that would have like the husband.

Would have had like health insurance or something.

So I mean, yeah, well yeah, but like my parents are like immigrants or like they don't know what's up. Yeah, but you're you speak American, get life insurance.

So she testifies that she never Lucy, she doesn't believe in it. She never shook her because she knows what that does to a child and that she would never hurt her. And Novak then comes in with a full shaming of a working mom. She's just like, and how much time do you spend with her while you're busy at work? Like, I don't really like this look for Novak, but I do get that we have to get this woman somehow.

She basically is like, you shook Lucy because.

She was ruining your romantic date. And she cries and she's like, no, that's not what happened. And then we cut to Novak and Stabler walking and talking. She's like, I think this is open and shot. He's gonna charge the jury soon, blah blah blah, and Stabler's like, you never know what these juries like. They might get sympathetic to this mom who's like daughter is in a coma, and then they get a call big news, bad news, Lucy just had a stroke and they don't think she's

Nothing is She is Bevy a real nickname. I think people are named Bevy, but I just started oo. I like that. I like that a lot.

That's cute. I love him, and she's the best. She's stunning in this episode.

She really is beautiful. Oh she's a gorgeous woman. I thought she was beautiful in Christmasification. I was always like, why are you cheating? I mean, I know Christy Brinkley is the person he's fantasizing about, but I was like, you've a pretty hot wife. But Novak is trying to argue that this will soon be a murder charge, and Beverly's like, uh no, it's not, because the mom has

They were hopelessly deadlocked.

And he's like, but you're retrying, right, and she's like, yeah, I don't think it's gonna make a difference. She's too sympathetic. And then Stabler gets his like far away look idea face with a little light bulb above it. And now he's in the hospital and Evelyn is reading good Night Moon to Lucy and she sees Stabler and is like,

Detective? They say it so much that would be a fun T shirt.

And he begs her to let Lucy go. He's like, please, like end her pain, and she's like, I believe that's up to God. And he's like, bitch, you don't think I'm the most Catholic motherfucker you've ever met. I believe it's up to God too. But one of my kids had something like this where there was nothing I could do to alleviate their suffering. I would pray to God

I'm not a mom.

I don't know what I would do if I was Evelyn, And I.

Don't know what I would do if I shook my baby to death.

Yeah, but it's like you don't have to be a mom to know what if you hear of a child that's in constant pain that's going to be a vegetable for the rest of their life like that, that's not work.

Like I don't know.

That's my opinion, but maybe other people are going to be like, you're crazy, wait for a miracle, but I don't think you do that, Like, yeah, but you were raised by a doctor I guess who's also a Republican in pro life, So who knows. Listen, Craigan goes, welcome to SVU, It's not all black and white.

So I think maybe this is Novak's first season.

So they're trying to like still teach her, teach her lessons and shit, And now in the judges chambers they're arguing it out again, and Novak is saying, the ethical option here is to take her off of life support, and Beverly d'angelo's like, they just want to be able to charge Evelyn with murder and she's like, no, I represent Lucy's best interests, and Beverly DiAngelo goes, well, it's hardly in her.

Best interest to be dead. And I thought that that line delivery was so good. She's just naturally really funny.

Yeah, and then this dumb bitch mom is in the meeting and she's like, well, I've really been praying for her to get better, and it's like, oh, oh you've been praying.

Okay, let's see if that.

Works, like and then you know, they're arguing like she's in God's hands, not yours, and then Beverly DiAngelo's character goes the prosecution wants to execute a helpless child, and you Judge Preston is like, girl, stop, like you're doing the most enough, and Novak argues that missus Pritchard's right to like control her daughter's living or dying is nullified by her legal predicament. Her judgment is biased because her freedom depends on her daughter living.

And so the.

Judge says, oh, okay, great, so prove to me that cessation of life support is in Lucy's best interest.

So now we're in court and.

We've got doctor uh I forgot her name, but Julie White is the actress we forgot. We get her the brain doc on the stand, and she's giving all of the extremely.

Sad, fucked up details.

She's like, every time we touch Lucy, she has a seizure, her bones are brittle, she literally got broke a hip getting her diaper changed the other day.

It's not good.

Then Beverly D'Angelo gets her chance to cross examine the doctor and she pulls the trick like ever.

Heard of this person or this person or this person, And she.

Goes, well, I'm not their doctor, and she was like, thank god because all of them jumped out of Coma's ready for pancakes.

She's like, so do you admit miracles happen?

And the doctor's like, I guess, and she's like she says she had permanent, irreparable brain damage. Life support is keeping a shell of a person alive, like there is no hope. Like the doctor is like, I think sometimes people are in comas and it's kind of unknown why, and then they can just come out of it.

But this is like, there are scans of her brain. It is mush.

It is not coming back, it cannot regenerate itself, Like there is no hope that she'll ever like live and be like on her own, off of breathing tubes and life support. Again, So seizure's brittlebones, constant excruciating pain. And finally they're pointing all this stuff out, and finally Evelyn is like, okay, stop, turn off the machines. I don't want Lucy to stuffer anymore. Just turn off the machines. I don't care. And then she confesses to everything right

They're so little. I don't know. I just would never do it.

Any that horny to me, that Harney could be me, couldn't be me, Like, I've never been that horny in my life. So she says, she shook her until she stopped crying, and then she's like and then I put her down, and she smiled up at me, and she seemed Okay. It's like your child smiled at you after you shook the shit out of her, Like, God, that's sick,

Fault, and that's where you lose me completely too.

You're like, well, when the doctor told me what happened, I just kept telling myself, well, it couldn't have been my fault, because you're like a sociopath.

No, it's it's hard. It's denial.

We're asking someone act normal and abnormal circumstances.

This bitch killed her baby. She's gotten that, you're right, but.

She did kill her to Fox, so I'm.

Still not on her side. So the whole ession is to Stabler, like she has something to prove to him, which is funny to me, but anyway, so we get that that's done.

Cord is over. Final scene, Cragan meets.

Stabler at a bar. And they're always making Craigan meet at a bar. It's like he is an alcoholic. Can you guys ever, just like meet at fro Yo or something. It's wild and he tells U Stabler they turned off the machines. It took about ten minutes and Lucy died. It was peaceful and Evelyn was able to be there. The jail brought her down, like the prison. So he then we get Stabler, I don't know, gunning for an

I made it palatable.

All right, let's take a break and we'll come back to some shaking baby news. Okay, guys, so this is sad and obvious.

I felt like you would have a hard time with this one, Cara, but thank you for taking it.

Yeah, I well, no even telling you, I'm like, this is not gonna be any but this is such an overview that hopefully won't be too traumatic.

And then but there are dead babies.

But also there are so many cases, so much controversy. I didn't know, and I hope you like the ones that I kind of chose to focus on and why. But there is obviously tons of information out there, so shaken baby syndrome, And like I said up top, there's medical professionals would prefer to call it abusive head trauma. So it's abusive head trauma. I will I'm not a doctor, I will continue to call it shaken baby syndrome. Now it's abusive head trauma. We'll see what if I can

Six year old fact.

The constellation of symptoms known as the triad are brain swelling, bleeding on the surface of the brain, and bleeding behind the eyes.

That's so funny.

Melinda called it a constellation of symptoms as well.

Yeah, I think that's the writer look at the same article.

Yea, yeah, no, I think that's just like the language.

Maybe.

Yeah, I just had never heard of like a constellation of symptoms.

Oh yeah, I never have heard that like phrase.

But go on, yeah, I only think about men in black and that little cat with her little necklace, so those I guess that was a full galaxy. Okay, So if those three symptoms are together, then it has been uniformly accepted as evidence that a crime has been committed, even if other signs of abuse aren't there. So you don't really need like bruises, broken bones or anything else.

So you know.

Yeah, So it happens most soten when a parent or another caregiver becomes frustrated angry because a baby is crying or they're unable to cope with the responsibilities of caring for a child, or they might not know that shaking a baby can be dangerous. Like that's a thing too, I think now it's such a thing that like everyone knows.

I found one clip from.

Doctor phil And who was a doctor, being like one shake can kill a baby, and it's like, Okay, that was a little panicky, that's not.

A yeah, but it had like a big moment in like the nineties or something.

Right, yeah, oh, we will talk about Yeah, nineteen ninety seven is when shaken baby really hit the scene. Jelly shoes and shaking babies. Okay, this I'm so disrespectful. So it's considered a severe type of child abuse and all you know, cause it causes swelling, bruising, bleeding in the baby's brain, neck, and spinal core damage, fractures to the baby's ribs, collarbone, arms, and even legs, and can lead

And they're just like accusing random people who made who maybe their kids died of SIDS or something, and they're just like, up, you shaken baby, You shaked your kid or whatever.

Yeah, And so it's just like it's caused a lot of contra Like there's just a lot of back and forth and a lot of different opinions, and I.

Had no idea. I thought it was like, this is just the thing.

So some doctors believe that other factors other than shaking that have nothing to do with criminal behavior might also describe the triad. So the guy like I mentioned, who first identified baby shaken syndrome is Norman.

Guth Kelk who became the Norman. Let's call him Norm.

So Norm became the pediatric neurosurgeon in Great Britain.

That's cool. He became suit.

It's like I didn't write that, okay, But he became super curious about babies who were coming into his hospital with unexplained brain injuries. And he noticed a pattern. And he said, where he was in Manchester, a common way to punish a baby was to shake it, like not hard but light shaking was kind of like a cultural way that parents punished their kids, h and so, And what he realized was like they weren't admit and then finally parents would be like, okay, I shook the baby.

I gave the baby a good shaking.

And so that gave him the basis for his paper in nineteen seventy one on shaken baby syndrome and then when prosecutors started using it in court to convict people, he was absolutely shocked. He told the Retro Report, which is part of the New York Times, he was shocked and desperately disappointed. And he was against defining it as a syndrome and the idea that every time this happens

And I know this name even yeah, yeah, So this was the case.

So it was nineteen ninety seven a young British nanny was charged with murder by shaken baby syndrome, and it brought everything into the national spotlight and raised a scientific debate that continues to shape child abuse cases today.

Like I just can't believe it.

So it captivated the US because nothing makes people more upset than injured children. So people were riled the fuck up. The nanny's name is Luis. Are you proud?

How much? Always that is?

So? Louis Woodward is the name of the nanny, and she was charged with murder in nineteen ninety seven.

You're still saying Louis, like if they did man a Mexican man's name?

Yeah, yeah, but what at lewis Louise? Louise? We'll put a z in there. You probably should.

So her name was Louise Woodward and she was a British shapair working for Suneil and Deborah Epen in Newton, Massachusetts. She was eighteen years old and accused of shaking an eight month old boy, Matthew Epan, so aggressively that he died.

Oh my god. She was in Newton, mass I know a lot of people from there. I thought you would because of you know, the New England of it all. It's close to my college.

I mean, it's not that far from my college, so I knew a lot of them college from there. Young.

So she called the police. She made the call.

So if she did it and did something terrible, like why would she call the police, or maybe she didn't know the connection between her actions and you know what it was happening to the baby.

We don't really know.

So the autopsy showed that the infant had died of a two inch fracture to the back of his head, and prosecutors said that she had shaken the baby until his brain hemorrhaged. She was held without bail at a

Were you there? Were you there?

Yeah?

And that's the big thing, like there are no witnesses. There is no reasonable doubt in these cases.

And that's what Well, there is plenty of reasonable doubt, is what you're saying.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yeah, yeah, lots of doubt So on the stand, Woodward said that the she only shook Matthew lightly in a gentle motion to try to get him to respond when she already found him unresponsive, and she ganda panic. So she's saying that, like she just was like, oh my god, the bass, wake up, wake up.

Yeah, And so that's what she admitted to.

And she said that like she was communicating this to the cops and that they kind of twisted the words god. And so that's the defense. So the key prosecution witness was doctor Patrick Barnes, and he's a neurodiologist, neuroadiologist, so he's a neuro radiologist and in quotes, I was adamant that it had to be child abuse, shaken baby syndrome, he told the retro report, as repeated by the New

Wow, you know this name was in my head. I was like, oh, I know the Louise Woodward case. I don't know anything about it. Like I was like a teenager when this case happened, and I heard about it all the time, and I was probably babysitting at the time and.

Nervous to hear about it.

But like, but I also didn't know any of this holy shit keep going.

Sorry, yeah, well this I feel like the nineties when you're that young a lot of it. Like I like, I totally I heard about the mortgage crisis.

I don't care. It didn't affect me.

I mean about Monica Lewinsky, but I was like, oh, she's a slut. Like I didn't really realize like any of what was going on until like later when I really researched things.

I knew there was a cigar in the pussy. I did know that.

I knew that too, but I thought, like, I don't know, the way she was portrayed in the media is exactly how I believe she was. Like I did not get the nuances of that case at all.

Yeah, So, the judge said in a sixteen page decision that he did not find any malice on her part to support the conviction. Woodward showed no emotion during this reduction, in comparison to like when she received the guilty verdict, she was fully crying.

But I think she.

Yeah, yeah, Deadpam So the Epens, in an interview with the Boston Globe after this, said what does that say about justice? Does it say that you could just kill a baby and that your youth and inexperience with cranky babies counts for more than a child's life and I

Was pissed as hell, outraged.

But Woodward returned back to England, where to many British people she was seen as innocent, even though a manslaughter charge like did stick with her. The judge says, didn't say innocent, It just made the conviction less. But to the British people it was like she's innocent, she's out

So they were like pretty gross stout.

It's kind of like how most the world is confused why we have medical like pill commercials, Like that's not really a thing outside of the US. So, in her hometown of Elton in Cheshire, Miss Woodward so like all her friends and neighbors packed into every corner of their local pub, the Rigor, and they watched the judge reduce her sentence and she didn't have to serve more time, and people were jumping and grabbing each other. They sang songs about her freedom in the tune of soccer songs.

I wonder if she's from the area where shaking was like a cultural thing or was that too much earlier than her than how old she was.

I don't know, but that I mean, you can't really get rid of that stuff with an a generation, you know that. Yeah, I don't know where chester Shire to Manchester is, but yeah, could be. There were cut fire crackers, car honking and then Woodward came back home and gave an interview to the BBC when returning home and maintains

Even though she did go to law school.

She worked on a law firm but then said no thanks, became a dance teacher, and she got married and took the dad's last like the guy's last name, and has a child, so she has a daughter of her own. And with a quote to the Daily Mail, she wrote, I know there are some people waiting for me to have a baby so they can.

Say nasty things to me.

It upsets me, but that's not going to stop me for leading my life. I am innocent, I've done nothing wrong. I'm entitled to enjoy my life and I'm not going to apologize for being happy. But like the article that I read that in was on Yahoo. Yeah, yeah, who no, I know, yeah, finance and it's from Cosmopolitan, and the

Now?

Yeah, but she wasn't innocent. She still had an involuntary manslaughter charge, so it's not like she's fully innocent. I don't know. I don't really have like opinions. I feel I obviously feel bad for the parents who.

Have I wonder what happened? Yeah, I wonder, Like it's it's the problem.

It's not really the defense's job to present an alternative theory of the crime.

They just had to prove that. So it's kind of like, but what did happen?

You know? Yeah? And then very annoyingly, you're gonna like you're gonna hate this. It's not about the shaking, but there started to become giant contempt towards the mother and working mothers and how you shouldn't let other people take care of your kids. God, and even though in that episode the mother did it, they're acting like moms don't you know.

Yeah, Like, of all those instances of shaking baby, I bet it's a ton of moms. It's not just like fucking nanny's doing it, you know, or it's dad's or it's uncles or it's like whoever. There's a lot of people around children.

Yeah, And I have some facts later that have nothing to do with shaking baby, but I found interesting in my research, So we'll talk about the highest rate of like who who abusers? Oh okay, but both the mom and dad were doctors, an optimologist and an anesthesiologist, and people were questioning their judgment of leaving the kid with somebody else. Newspaper headlines read lifestyle of a yuppie put on trial. There was like montage clips of people talking

It's of course coming to her because it's full misogyny.

Like yeah, like the dad, dad can go out and work. Yeah.

Also, she was only working three days a week and would come home for lunch.

Yeah, that's like way better than what most working moms can do.

Like, that's crazy.

And like the woman in the episode, I mean, she was guilty, but like if people were mad that she had a nanny, like her husband died, what do you want? Yeah, then we should live in this. I mean I believe everyone. I think I believe in a base income for everyone, but I think stay at home mothers just like should be given an income from the government and alma, all women I think should be given money so they can escape abusive partners. I think all like, I believe in all of that.

I mean I was just home with my kids for seventeen fucking days in a row.

And it was really hard.

I was actually thinking about stay at home moms and being like wow, wow, no.

Because I think because I don't want children, and I'm like, I'm a feminist, people think like I might be anti like something, and I'm like, pay stay at home moms all the time.

Yeah.

So after the trial, you know, I mentioned the doctor who, like the prosecution was yelling or the defenseeing neuroradiologist. Yes, So this is the neuro radiologist, doctor Barnes, and he was on the stand for the prosecution and getting.

Yelled at like were you there? Were you there?

So he was the witness for the prosecution, and he has rethought his testimony is and is now convinced that the diagnosis happened too fast in criminal cases, and other causes could be infections, diseases, earlier injuries from accidental falls,

Wow.

So and that's I always say this. If a man wants to date you and you have children, do a background check.

Yeah, thank you for doing all of this work on shaking baby.

I don't know where. I don't know what to think.

I mean, I think with anything like courts and law enforcement can be make mistakes and be corrupt, and I'm sure people have been accused of things, but I do think it exists, right, Like people do fucking snap when their babies won't stop crying and do anything to shut them up.

Yeah, and I do believe that the guy, the doctor in England in the seventies who came up with this, like I think he thinks it's real and everyone think. I think it was just the shock of how it was used so liberally and criminal trials, yes, is what kind of alarmed the medical community. But but yeah, there was a heyday, Like there was just like a montage of people on daytime talk shows being like shaking baby, shaking baby, and like I've seen them like bus ads like don't shake your baby, and.

Yeah, all that stuff.

But that's why you shouldn't even if you really want kids, it's so hard. Like that's why another reason why you should not force people to raise children that don't want children.

Yeah, yeah, they will share.

And just like in that first year of life, there's like postpartum, there's all kinds of like emotional and physical things that moms and dads are going through. And like I'm not excusing anyone, but I'm just saying, like mental health access has got to be part of this too, you know.

So it's not blaming parents, but I just feel so sad, like your baby is dead and now you're on trial and you're like what and then and you can't even it's yeah.

Yeah, horrible.

But listen, we've got an amazing palette cleanser to make you forget about all of these deceased babies. Our guest is amazing, So do not go anywhere, guys, it's guest time. And I do not say this lightly when I say that our guest today is an absolute icon. You know her as Ellen Griswold from all of the Vacation films.

You know her from American History X.

You may have seen her on several separate episodes of SVU, where she not only plays a character in today's episode, but she also plays Sara Fina Caresi, mother of Dominic quote unquote Sonny Careesi. And she also was recently in the huge Christmas smash Violent Night. But on today's episode, you know her as defense attorney Rebecca balth This, guys, please enjoy our amazing convo with Beverly DiAngelo.

You're such a get for us, Like we're just so excited. I can't believe you're so down. But Kara wrote the medicine. Say it out loud, Cara.

Okay, so I remember you're in court. You're asking Melinda Warner the medical Exameter. Have you ever heard of chemo.

Phagosytic lympho lympho histosis? I can't. I'm reading, I know, and it rolls right off your tube like you went to.

Medical took a lot of professional application. What is it again, hem hem hemo.

Lympho.

I'm sure we have like medicaltosisosis.

Okay, because I couldn't when when I read that, I went, are you kidding me? That's a laugh line. There's like, there's this thing I used to do. I'm the only person in the world that thinks it's funny. But if we were in person, I would do it with you. And it's not even a game. It's just I think I made it up, but in between takes to just keep myself from being bored. But like you know, one person you can see me has to take a sip

No and we love your back as like Sarahie Currency the most Italian name of all time.

Yeah, I wish they'd be back.

Well, I bet you well, I bet you.

You know was recurring, But what happened was what Narberto said was that you know, they were exploring when Warren Light was the showrunner, which is when I did that episode in January of twenty twenty two. That's when we shot it. I don't know when it came on. I think March or something. But anyway, Warren Light and seconded by Norberto, saw that as a recurring character because they were thinking of going into Peter Cresi's home life.

Yeah.

Yeah, yeah, So you know, I think the episode you were in was kind of like you meeting Kelly Gettish's character to kind of like, you know, feel her out, and so you she we just talked to Kelly Giddish and she was raving about you. She was like you, She's like you boy yet Beverly D'Angelo and I go, we go, we're talking to her this.

Weak ever, But I mean, really, that show is like you know what they say, it starts from the top, and Marissa Hagerta is one of the most incredible human beings on the planet. Besides her acting chops, She's got a heart and a soul and I even her brother has a plant store here in La I.

Got yes, I used to live near it.

Yeah. And now did you see they built that building so it doesn't get any sunlight. Oh yeah, they built a building on right and Franklin.

Yeah, that was it.

But anyway, you know, if you need a rare plant, you call you know, Mickey Mickey Das.

Yeah.

The thing is that the atmosphere of that shoot, it's it's an everybody's emotionally in tune and invested in the show, and everybody's supporting each other to do their best, so you're not getting you know, little uh fractures anywhere. You know, when you come on as a guest, you're like coming into heaven, you know what I mean. It's it's it's wonderful, it's it's a it was a wonderful atmosphere. And it was that from the get go, and I did it

Yeah, yeah, it was some doesn't two?

Yeah, I mean so that's where it was only five years old then. I mean it was a hit.

Yeah, it was season five when you did Shaken, and.

Yeah you did your first one was Course, which I love. But I have to say, your character is so funny.

Your character is just is so quick and like sharp, and it's like I don't think so it makes all these old jokes and obviously part of that is scripted, but like you must have brought something to that too, having like years and years of comedy experience.

You know, I'll tell you something that they say and I want to believe it because I'm so old now. But they say that, you know, talent doesn't age, you know what I mean. I don't want to say that it's genetic to anybody, but because I really do believe in applying yourself and studying and developing a skill set. But acting talent is a different thing. Singing talent. You know, your voice, your chords can age, your voice gets lower

I mean all of three.

Yeah, I look for that. But even that, with the way that storytelling has evolved, with this long storytelling medium of streaming and stuff. Even those little kind of punchline rules. You can have it in a moment, but there's a different thing happening now, and so rules don't apply. And I have a very specific way that I go through a script and the way that I get into a

Yeah, she dug deep because like that woman pretty It was like the medical examiner was like, this is shaking baby syndrome, hands down, and you were like, what about this seventeen syllable disease?

I found about? That was also because I was a defense lawyer. It was shaking baby right, yeah.

Oh yeah, yeah, she shook that baby. She shook that baby for sure. Yeah.

I think a lot of times your your people are guilty, but that doesn't matter your paid defense.

They're guilty. Yeah.

Yeah.

And was looking at your IMDb you have like six things in pre production or post production. It was like, you're like the busiest woman in the world.

Okay, let me get this out of the way. For why I'm working so much now, I had my kids. I got pregnant forty eight. I gave birth of forty nine, difficult pregnancy, hit the ground running. Was a single mother. You know, nobody's really a single mother. But I was, you know, split up with their dead by the time they were three. So you know, I got I remember, I got offered Winter's Bone, and I couldn't it because I couldn't be gone for months. Because I'm from Ohio.

You know.

It was really about freeing. And what started to surge up in me was my creative need, you know. I mean, that's that's what started me on my trajectory when I left home at seventeen, you know, to express, you know, whether it's painting or singing or acting whatever. It is, not dancing now, I'm allows a dancer, but my niece

My whole family does.

I did it a little as a child, but I you know, did you have.

A baby grand or a grand piano?

My mom had a grand piano.

All right? Then you know what a sustain pedal is. That's a pedal on a piano that when you press it down, it lifts the felts off the strings so they resonate. If you press the sustained pedal down and you lift the top of the piano and you go into the piano strings the corresponding a note, that string that holds that note will reverberate. It's called sympathetic resonance. I think sympathetic resonance and that's a fact of life that if you sing a certain frequency into a piano,

Know what I mean.

They heard the vibrations.

Yeah, it wasn't like I was calling him saying, hey, do you want you know, can you give me a job or anything? Yeah?

Yeah, you weren't like, hey, I'm back on the scene. Yeah, it's just a headset.

It's just a mindset.

I think I have another thing I want to ask you about the Simpsons.

I'm a huge Simpsons head.

I love Lurline Lumpkin, and I can't believe it's you, Okay.

Frank Zappa was a very good friend of mine, as was his wife and his children. Duesel to this day, Deweesel's a very close friend. Anyway, Frank was using a sink clip toward the end of his life, and it was a It was a machine that like you could program with notes, you could get sound sources like somebody

Oh my god, that makes me so happy. I know.

I didn't know you wrote that. That's amazing and amazing, that's amazing. Do you have the action figure of her?

I do, Okay, I have a couple of action figures. I have one that's set in a bowling alley and then another one that's set somewhere else amazing. There's one box that came out that's a bowling alley. I don't have merchandising now.

So you brought up vacation before we're talking to you now in the holiday season, what happens when like every year Christmas rolls around that movie is like huge in my house.

It's like a class family business classic, like.

Walking around in the most beautiful world you can imagine.

I was like, I was like, does it annoy you that? Like it comes back around every year? You love it?

It's so beautiful because by the way it's built. Yeah, it didn't start out like that the first one. By the way, the first one was r rated and was but everybody identified with it instead. But I mean there's some vision as a satire, but anyway, it just keeps growing and growing and growing. And what I find is that the people who like Christmas Vacation and who have it as part of their lives, they're family people. They're

Yeah.

It also just introduced me to so many people like you, Chevy Chase, Julia, Louis Dreyfus, Randy Quaid, I mean, Juliette Lewis.

Like all these, I know, huge.

People that I didn't know who anybody was when I first watched it.

You know, like you know what I was. I was in Yeah, well nobody else did either. But I was in Pittsburgh doing this autograph thing with Chevy and the woman who was helping me from the convention, the best, Antoinette, the Best, she invited me to. I got stuck there and so I didn't leave on Sunday. But on Sunday night, she and her sister had they have a party where people dress up as characters. Oh my gosh, and her sister and her sister's friend they wore those those jogging suits,

Oh my gosh.

Okay, wait, we could literally talk about your career forever, but let's circle back to SVU.

Really cut that stuff out. You can cut it out.

No, we would never cut it. We would never We want to know it all that was all gold.

But so, I mean, do you have like memories of SVU, like you and Richard Belzer, you and Marushka like you know, specific like any little stories or anything.

Oh gosh, I gotta tell you about me. Let me get it up on IMDb side. Remember the name of the one person I'm thinking of. Anyway, It just all good stuff. Iced tea was great. When I went in to do looping, he had cocoa with him. Yeah, she's the sweetest person in the world. But Richard Belzer, I was a big fan of his comedy, right. We were in the same kind of click in the early days, but didn't really I didn't intersect too much with the

Do your kids are they? Did they have like the bug for the business or what?

My daughter is a live actor in an escape room, Oh.

My gosh, amazing.

In the best escape room in the Los Angeles area. It's in Silmar. It's called the Basement and there's a whole backstory. It's horrifying. It gave me the creeps. But I'm going back on Sunday because niece. I have my son and my niece in my house, my nieces living with me. My son kind of got booted back here from his apartment with the COVID thing, but once they stop the online classes, he'll be back in his apartment anyway.

Yeah, oh my gosh.

Yeah, she's deep into it. She's a live actor. And Alan I went and we were like, oh my god, this is like the greatest ser you know, and you know, because it's interactive. And my son Angel, from the age of fifteen, he's was drawn to video games and he said, at a very early age, said the art form of the twenty first century. So he's a video game developer and he's developing a game right now.

Oh cool.

Well, wow, Beverly, this was a thrill that. I mean, we we're gonna we need to have you back. There's too much more to talk about.

I'm also tomorrow.

Can you even believe that we just talked to her. It's not even hitting me.

I mean, I am like a huge Christmas vacation fan. I like love her so much. I just she was so cool. She reminded me of well, I always say, she kind of reminded me of when we talked to Kathy Moriarty because we talked to her forever and she seems like this brassy, like I've been in this business a long time. They both kind of sound like they smoke SIGs, like you know, I like, I'm obsessed.

I just thought she was so cool.

So open, like you know, not not any not many people that come on our show are like this, but it's so much was a star like that. It's like pr publicists say this do and say that, oh what's that? And she is just so open, so giving, so honest, no games, no hiding stuff, Like I just I loved everything about her and down to her living room, I mean everything like and.

I was like obsessed with her before I even knew that she had kids with al Pacino. And then when she was like yeah al and I went to go see our daughter at the Escape Room, I'm just like, you're what is your life? Beveragelo Like she's amazing, And we have we have figured out my sushi for like you know, Elliott's stabler. Benson knew that that couldn't have been stabler because he's eating sushi. And we figured out

Because what was so funny?

So I was at Kara's house, but Jared was walking in the back door. He didn't know I was there yet, and so all he saw was a McDonald's coffee on the counter, and in his head it was like what because not only does Karen not actually go to McDonald's, she does not drink coffee. He was like, this, what happened? This is pod snatchers or body snatchers. And then Lisa just popped out and was like I'm here, I'm here, Ah God, And then you know what I mean. Obviously,

As COVID, Well, she's completely asymptomatic. It's crazy. So we're just wearing masks in the house. I think I still probably have some immunity from when I just had it. I think she got it at school because a couple kids have had it at school, but just so far, my Oscar doesn't have it. We're keeping it. It's just like, yeah, it's like life is so fucking just punches you in the face over and over again, especially with my fucking kids.

But everything, you know, it's cute.

Oscar waved to me for the first time on FaceTime and it was really cute.

And Jared taught him.

If you're a fan of Drag Race, and you know, Alaska's catchphrase is hi, like Jared basically taught them how to say that. And so now Oscar whenever he's on FaceTime with me, he goes hi, and it is really sending me. I don't know if we have like a full post mortem from this episode.

But don't shake your don't shave your baby.

Yeah, kids cry, and it's actually way better to wait.

Should we do that on the road?

Should that be our big surprise at the end we do a full shaken baby dance? And so where all the lessons we've learned don't have sex with your sister or shake your baby.

I know it's hard to like you to be frustrated with like screaming children, It is hard, but like physically grabbing them or shaking them is never the answer. It's literally unless you're giving them brain damage, it will not work. Like shaking a kid will only make them Shaking a kid, grabbing a kid, like doing anything physical to a kid, it's only gonna make them more hysterical.

So it's like, don't do it.

I know.

It's really weird.

Like the encouragement for everyone to have children is so wrong. It's like you should be like everyone should be like, don't have kids unless you go to therapy, work on your anger, have patience. I don't know, it's like we just let anyone procreate. It's it's wild. Look, I don't shake your baby. I've lost my temper with my kids. Trust I have, but I just like I never ever think, oh if I shake them, it will quiet them down.

But also I.

Think you should drop to your knees in public and scream, Like that would make more sense to me then.

But also for this lady in this episode, like if you're fucking a guy who can't handle it, if you go to your daughter's room for five minutes and just calm her down and put her back to bed. I don't even care. Like, first of all, he's cheating on his wife with you. This is not the guy worth killing your kid over in this episode, Jesus. But I know she just wanted to get laid after she's a widow and all that, but come on, come on, lady,

I know, what an a what an actress? What a role?

What a what a blessing? And you know, I'm glad the baby's an actress. Yeah, not a real baby.

But speaking of advice and how you can you know, work with your kids or whatever, let's get into what would Sister Peg do. That's our weekly segment where we give you guys a resource, a link, a book, a podcast episode, something that can help you learn more about

With your kids, I totally get that.

Check out this article see if you can get some advice on like ways to walk away, ways to take a break, recenter yourself and not get too upset. Child Help is a nonprofit organization dedicated to the prevention and treatment of child abuse, and check out their website to find preventative measures against some of the causes of shaking baby syndrome as well.

And that's again childhelp dot Org.

And that will as always be posted as a story on our Instagram the day of the show and then we'll be saved forever in a WWSPD highlight, which now is WWSPD two because we've already surpassed our one hundred or something.

What would sister peg dos?

So, yeah, that's amazing. I didn't put that together, but of course we have. Next week's episode will be Contrapasso Season nineteen, episode three. We got some Peacock action, some Hulu action. Get your sticks ready all over the world. We're obsessed with all of you, and we'll see you next week.

Thanks bye, guys.

That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.

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Our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cotner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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