Secrets Exhumed w/ Roscoe Orman

Of the law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories, done.

Done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.

I'm Kara Klank.

And I'm Liza Traeger and we are so excited to be talking SVU sadly crimes and then also celeb guests, and we have so much to discuss up top. Though, because Kara went to see Elton John with her friends Dad, I don't know everything. Oh it was so good. It was so good.

It's just like a bucket list person I've always wanted to go see and I really wanted to see him when he was with a Billy Joel in the city when I live there and I never got around tw it or I remember like asking Jared and he was like, no thanks, And I was like doubting our relationship because I was like, who would say no thanks to going to that concert?

But he's weird.

Anyway, I had the best time. I went with three of my girls from college. We just had a blast. Like it was at the stadium where the padres placed. It was very big. They do like they do like piano cam on him a lot where all you see are like bedazzled sleeves, and then piano was like him banging on the keys.

But it's just hit after hit. I mean, I think he sang maybe two songs.

That I didn't know super well, but like everything else is just like the hits, and he has no opening act.

He goes on at eight o'clock. They're like, don't be late.

He went on at like eight oh five, I mean truly and just starts and putting.

On a great So do they what time does it say on the ticket? And does it say don't be late? There's no opener? Come at eight because usually people are lates of concerts, Like I wonder if he the doors.

At six oh door doors at six being your seat by eight?

Elton starts on time and there is no opener. Okay, cool? Yeah, Goga didn't have an opener. I remember Madonna didn't have an opener. I think Shared did not. No Share had some Belgium bands.

Shared Share maybe when I saw Share had like a DJ or something at the beginning, But yeah, I don't think it was like an opener.

They don't need it, So what's the demo? Is it like a lot of elderly all over the damn place.

Like it was a lot of older people, but it was like a lot of young people and like our age and stuff. It was really all over the place, like truly, he's just such a worldwide all ages talent. And he was like talking on stage about how he's like gonna retire and spend time with his kids, and I go, bullshit, I'll believe it when I see it.

I was like pretty drunk and was like, he's never gonna stop. He's not.

They're all liars, they're all narcissists. They need it for tenth farewell tour. You heard share this is just gossip about old legends. We could do it like a legends gossip minute. Cher is dating this new young man. It just came out, this new young guy and he's Amber Rose's ex who apparently cheated on her like crazy, So I really hope this man doesn't fuck with Cher. I mean she'll kill you. Yeah, she'll have you killed. I was in New York and I did have a lovely moment.

The moon was huge.

And then Kelly Clarkson started playing on the radio, you know the like the moment.

The big hit moment like this.

Yes, And then a moment like this started playing and I was I truly started to cry. I couldn't believe it. I was like, this is what this is what I live for. I'm like, this is it. And I asked him to turn it up, and I just like looked at the moon and skyline in the water and I was just like, you know what, Kelly, it is.

This is the moment. It is the moment. No people away the lifetime for a moment like this. I love it.

And it felt really cool. And I did a thing for the first time. You know, our friend Yasir Lester and his brother made a movie mm hmm. And I got to go to like the rough cut screening and have a paper and like they ask for notes and stuff.

Oh yeah, I've been to one of those.

I've never done that I didn't know what was up, but it was like a really intimate group in some office like little theater space.

I don't know.

I felt like it felt cool. I felt like a Kerrie bradshop. I deleevely, you know. I gave the notes I gave, but I.

Loved I'm glad they add other people there.

I would say that they just invited you, and they're like it all hinges on what Lisa Trigger thinks of this movie.

I just wish I could be more helpful. But I was literally just like amazed someone can make that. Like I was just like ten. They're like, I'm like ten, Yes, I loved this. They're like, what parts are lagging? Like where you know it's a rough cut and they want.

No notes cut out of ten? Everything rolls. Yeah. I was just like this was great. This was great. I laughed here.

And then my other friend who stayed till them, she goes, oh, no, people were giving like real helpful notes, and I wish I could be that person with them too, but I was not.

Did you see Aaron our friend Aaron? Oh did she go in the movie.

In the movie, Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, she is in the movie. And she is in the beginning and very fun. It's great. I was like, oh, cutting room floor. No, she's definitely in it. Well, also, Chelsea's in that scene. He's he can't cut out in life, but she.

Said, she goes, I'm not gonna get cut because I'm in a scene with his wife.

Yeah, but it was really good. I don't even know how much I can chat since it's such rough abs, but just impressive, just impressive the skills people have. And it takes I mean years because yeah, it was just an impressive, cool moment I feel.

And as usual, we're in the time machine. So this episode will be coming out a couple of days after everyone will have done Thanksgiving. Hopefully you're all getting over. Yeah, hopefully you'll all be getting over whatever trauma your family inflicted on you this past weekend. And are you doing BT dubs. I'm I'm home. I'm staying home. I'm having so far. One family over that you know that has one little kid and then maybe Aaron, who I just talked about, but not sure.

And you're not cooking, I assume, so what are we doing? No?

No, the other mom is a good cook, Like she's gonna do a roast turkey because I don't even eat meat.

My kids don't eat meat.

Aaron doesn't either, So like I'm gonna do potatoes, crampberry out of a can, and like one other thing, and she's gonna do sweet potatoes, green beans and the turkey, and so it's like we just like splitting it and we're like, let's just not make Oh, I'm gonna do a vegetarian stuffing too, because I love stuffing, like stuffing fucking rules, but I don't like the kind that's been inside the.

Bird or whatever. Yeah.

No, I meat and I don't love that. Yeah, Yeah, want some normal stuffing. Yeah, So Thanksgiving we'll have come and gone, yes.

And we will actually when this episode airs, we will be zipping up our suitcases in anticipation of heading out to Orlando. Please come see us tomorrow night, Wednesday, the thirtieth of November in Orlando. We're so excited. Then on Thursday,

I have a question. So I'm on the flight. I'm very sleepy this morning, and I'm resting. I'm sleeping.

You know, I'm sleeping on the flight, but I could tell we've landed. You know, I understand what's happening. But the guy next to me poked me to wake me up, and truly, I don't think i've ever acted. So I was like, don't touch me, and he was like, well, you were sleeping, and then I grabbed my bags and it was still a line. I go, yeah, and now like why would you like, why are you touching him?

He told you to wake you up when the flight landed.

Yes, that's crazy, and I was so aggressive towards him, but it's like, don't touch I get it's not even time to leave. It's not like people have passed us, like we truly just grounded.

Like the door wasn't the.

Way you would have you would have, like all the people trying to pull their carry ons out on the top, you would have woken up naturally.

And even if you hadn't, could did he have to like get by you or what?

Yeah?

I'm always an but like I just hated being poked awake by a stranger and I was just and he seemed alarmed when I said, don't touch me, but it's like, don't And I don't know if I told you this, but a couple of weeks ago, stop me if I've already talked about it on the pod. I'm sitting out, you know, at the cellar whatever. Me and Jared Fried are sitting. A guy comes up to us and compliments us great. He shakes Jared's hand AND's like, oh, hell, yeah,

You were great? Kisses my neck like twice, And I.

Wish I treated him like I treated this poke guy, and I wish him this moment.

I went like, what are you doing?

But I was kind of alarmed, and then he walked away, and I go, Jared, he just kissed my neck, and he goes, wait, I thought you knew him. I assumed he the way he hugged you. I thought you knew him. I go, I did not know him.

How to kiss anyone's neck. That's not a sexual. That like a neck kissing is purely sexual. There is no platonic neck kissing.

I wish I did something and got him banned or something. I just did not act fast enough. And then I just looked at him and I go, you don't even have to worry about I'm like, no guy would ever do this to you, Like, no one would grab you and just kiss your neck like that so twisted.

I mean, famously, a big comedy booker of a festival kissed my hand on two different occasions. That is nothing compared to your neck. Neck is not okay. Neck is not okay. Blown away, And know you have not mentioned this on the spot, because I would fucking remember it. I'm like, so gross, because it's like, God, neck is like basically sex. I mean, to me, someone kissing your neck is like you're about to fuck Like.

I'm sorry, Like I wish I said something, but I truly was just like, what.

What's the guy trying to hit on? You? Do I know him? Is that hitting on?

It matter if you know him, I don't care if you gave him a kidney. That is such a weird fucking thing to do. That is so fucking weird. Anyway, listen, we let's make this a short intro. You are tired from traveling. I have to go take my children somewhere, so let's let's get this episode started. You have Tricksie Mittel's number. I need you to ask her when does she sleep? I need to know when she's sleeping. I need to know how she's fun.

Because of the constant because of the constant travel.

She's busier than me. Is she sleeping? I want to know what she's up to. Great question. So if you can please.

Find that out for me, that would be great. Do my mess. I'll do my mess.

And I just wanted to remind you guys about our awesome, existing and new merch in our merch store that you can find at exactly Rightmedia dot com slash shop. It is the holiday season, baby, so go out and get

Sure you guys get your shit in time.

So yeah, go to the link in our bio on our Instagram that has all of our stuff or exactly Rightmedia dot com slash shop and you can head to the TMU page and check out.

All of our stuff.

All right, guys, don't go anywhere, because we have a hot, hot, hot episode for you, very requested.

All right, Secrets of Zooms highly requested, I would say highly requested.

You guys. We've been working on it.

And we're we got it baby, Season fourteen, episode fourteen.

You know I love that. I love a little numbers game.

And we open up in the squad room, Olivia is packing up a box and Finn is walking behind her with a box and he's just like, I don't want to move, and Benson's like it's six feet like could you just shut the fuck up? And Craigan's like, new year, knew me. I want to shake things up. You guys are getting too complacent. But Finn just likes his old desk and that's that. And Tomorrow's like, oh, do you

But here a joke, So that's great. You don't get that much chuckle out of old Nickamarrow.

And then Finn's like, yeah, easy, you don't have you have to move your desk, Like, don't fucking do that. And then Munch walks in and he's like, so I'm leaving for a few months and you guys are rearranging the furniture.

What's going on?

And then Craigan's like, oh, looky, here the guy who left us for Cold Case. So this was like the in between years of Munch where he was like in and out or did he leave and come back. I tried to look at the dates on IMDb, and I.

Was like, I can't. I don't have time for that.

Yeah.

I wonder if he was just like, I want to be in Paris for half the year, so can I just like go to a different unit, but I like still come back to shoot upisodes here and there.

I wonder if he works or he's truly munch vibes where he's just like, I will never work again, thanks for my residuals, and I live cheaply.

I mean, I don't even know if it has to be that cheap. These people must make a ton off residuals. It's playing constantly and their main character.

And they have the good deals.

Yeah, I'm sure the new people don't have, like, yeah, the amazing deals like everyone else so much has some good news though kind of but yeah good there so cold case. There was a hit on an unsolved rape murder from nineteen eighty seven, the year I was born, And he hands the file over to tomorrow and Rollins is here too.

It's a full house. I'm obsessed with this episode.

So and then for nineteen eighty seven, Rollins goes, that's not cold that's frigid.

Does that count as a joke, I don't know. For Rollins.

And so then it's Brian Traymore fifty two, and he was picked up in Miami on a cocaine pass. They took way too long to process the DNA. He's actually already served his three months and is being released in Florida tomorrow. So Craigan's going to start some extradition papers and then Benson and Tomorrow book the next flight to Miami, and Finn's like, you know, I can go to Miami and.

The CA it's so funny.

He goes cap I really got a feel for the scene down there, like it's like, come on, send me.

But he's making him stay with Rollins, his best SIA to work. And so now we're in Miami. It's bright baby, and I wonder if this is where Dexter Morgan worked, Like I wonder if they hung out.

I do not think they went on location to Miami.

I think they went and fat like turned the lights on somewhere in Chelsea Peers.

And now that's what this is.

Well, I didn't think they go went to Miami. But Dexter Morgan's also not a real.

Man, Oh, I know, but well that's Miami Metro different. It's a totally that's a totally fake police department than Miami PD.

Oh so these are so they would not be crossing path Yeah, they wouldn't be crossing paths. This was say guys Simpson's crossover episode. I was like, Kara, I know they didn't go to Miami like you fuck no.

I think it's funny that, like to portray Miami, they probably just went to one of their own sets and turned the lights on because like, it's so fucking dark everywhere on a CEE.

You that's so.

True, and you know, I haven't. I've never seard this much time on a set like I have on Michelle's show, usually in and out in a day, And it is cool to see what the lighting does. No wonder you have to wait for lighting, like it is incredible what they fucking do with these lights. And they talk in a language I don't know. They're like five twenty percent sparkle over here, bring the paper, and I'm just like, yeah, oh my god, it's the afternoon. Like it is really

And he was like a full hippie man, like so cool, and he would just it was it was lighting for theaters, so not quite television, but all we would do is walk in the woods and he would be like, do you see how the light drifts down through that tree?

Like that's always like I got credit for that. That's great. Class, it was great. In high school.

I took stage craft and you learned like all of it and you had to get twenty five hours on the crew to get a passing grade.

And it was just everything. And so we had to do a light presentation.

You pick three colors and then to a song you like light yeah.

Jah wait, you're bringing me back.

I had to do some kind not to a song, but I had to do a presentation too, where I was like I had to set the lighting schematic for like three scenes or something.

Yeah.

Well, the song I chose, oh was rock San from Mulan Rouge. I got the cheating the Tango Tango, so it was like Moody and Sexty.

I love that song. I love that fucking song. It slaps like that's one of the best songs on Lulan Rouge.

But in high school, theater. The boy like the student who is really into lighting. Him and his girlfriend would fuck up on the route like rafters all the time.

Of course, yeah yeah, shout out.

They also though they were gonna get married, which I think is I love high school people that are like, we're in this forever.

I just I like that vibe. So Benson's and short sleeves.

Tomorrow's in a polo to prove, hey, we're in Miami, and all of a sudden she hates it. She's like, ugh, I hate it, and Amorro's like the sun, the coffee, the people, and she goes the heat, the bugs, and he's like a Cuban sandwich and she.

Goes, I hated it. And it's like.

You're always trying to go on vacation, like you love the Bahamas. And then he says it, He's like, well, you never complain about the Bahamas. And it's like, why does she hate Miami and not the Bahamas? Is it that she doesn't love the fucking Bahamas?

I think also coming to Miami for work, where you like have to wear dark jeans and like button up like like blouse, maybe that's like more annoying. I kind of love that she's just like ride or die New York, Like New York is the only cool place to live to live.

No one's making her move there.

But it's like they had time for a Cuban sandwich and a coffee, like you hated it, Like what are you talking about?

I'm just shocked by this.

Like it's kind of like Sex and the City when Miranda goes out with the guy who hasn't left Manhattan in a decade and he's proud of it, and it's like, you can. I think New York's the best place in the world that I've been and I still would love to go to Miami. Yeah, which will we We will be there. We will be there soon. So a polo

We walk over, get me a drum roll.

It's Agent Dana Lewis aka Star aka Marsha gay Harden, friend of the podcast, our first Oscar winner on the show, a drag Race fan, and we're happy to see her here on her third appearance on SVU as the same character. I just gave you a moment if you wanted to say something, but I will compete.

I'm just like, I'm just like still so baffled she did our podcast. I'm so excited. It like just makes me so happy that she did it, like and off right off the bat.

We were nobody, We were nobody. Yeah we came out and us Kate Burry. Yeah we really came out swinging. So she has a side part gelled lobun and they high five.

There's some handshake.

Tomorrow asked what the FBI is interested in with this case, and she acts, she answers that he's actually a prime suspect for three other rape murders and that it's a cereal Sacramento, Philly, Washington into in New York. Tomorrow fights for the case and he's like, these aren't even federal charges. We want this, and it's like who cares, go swim in a pool, have a cocktail, try to fuck Benson, like, live your life, eat on her wife, so she should.

So yeah, that's like, yeah, what he is in US.

I know him from many things. He's very prolific, but I love him from clause. He plays Nisi Nash's brother on clause and he's like, I don't know if they specifically say if he's like neurodiverse or on the autism spectrum or what, but that's who he plays.

I don't know if that's maybe.

I'm sure people will write and tell me, but like, I don't know if that's maybe controversial now that you would want to have somebody who's actually neurodiverse play that part. But he I thought he gave it like he didn't play it like a cartoon character, and that show is so cartoony, Like he played it really real, and I really like loved his portrayal.

I thought he was great good. Yeah, I heard nothing. I got to watch clause.

Yeah, it's it's off the phone and walls. It's so good.

So Amaro, Benson and Lewis are all surprised. He's in a wheelchair and they let him know that, you know, we have a warrant for your arrest, and he's obviously sad about it, with an emotional rollercoaster. He just wanted to do a little bit of coke and now he's caught for like decades old crimes and they fill him in that it's rape and murder and it's finally caught up to you, and he's super confused and looking at the court papers and Lewis grabs the chair and starts

Like, can I just stop for a second.

I don't remember people I've like had sex with ten years ago, let alone a guy that maybe looked past me at a sports bar fifteen years ago. I mean, like, maybe I just can't with some of the identifications of people.

Maybe she thought he was hot and she was pale, like she was jealous of Gina. So like, yeah, you know, he worked for the team, but like Gina, she was jealous.

She says it, She's jealous of Gina.

Guys didn't look at her, only at her friend and people paid her oh, and that her parents paid her rent and like she was poor. So maybe it was like a really traumatic evening at the bar where no one wanted to fuck her.

I don't know.

So then she walked in and found her and it was horrible and all of a sudden or was she happy, we don't know.

So the photo I guess not. But she learned a lesson that day.

So the photo of Gina's thrown onto the table in interrogation, and they're like, you remember her, Benson says, and he's like, Gina doesn't ring a bell, but she's cute. And he says he doesn't remember her any or know anything about her. And they let him know that the roommate I d'd him, and he's like, it was the eighties, sweetheart.

You know how many women I talked to in the eighties.

And she's like, yep, you treat women like games, lure them in, tell them you're some big deal.

And he's like, I never lied about my job.

And then tomorrow needs to dunk on this guy more and he's like sure, but they didn't actually want to hang out with you. They wanted to meet the players, not the equipment guy. Oh, and he goes, yeah, I did, all right. It was different back in the day before the chair. And again Amara was like, oh, yeah, when you can walk and fuck, remember those good old days.

And it's like, leave this guy. I mean, I guess he's.

A rapist murderer, but like they're like bullying him, and he says, if I were you, i'd remember who I was fucking and not since you can't fuck anymore, and all you have is memories. And Harold changes his demeanor. He's so offended. He's such a good actor, and he says, fine, I remember meeting her, and they go there's DNA in her body and we know you were with her, and he says, fine, so I went home with her, doesn't mean I killed her. Benson leans in and says, Brian,

You ever think it was karma?

And he looks at her with disgust, and we cut to Rollins greeting mister and missus Stanger Stannger, Patty Stanger, I'll say Stanger, who were called in and hopefully they found who killed their daughter. So they show suspect the photos of the suspects of the parents, and of course the dad's like, I don't really know these guys, and it's like, why would you know random guys that your daughter fucked, Like that would be weird? And they say, Kira wouldn't have gone with a man like that, and

And they're like, no, she likes music, hated sports.

We're from Vermont, and he is doing a pretty good Vermont accent. I have to say, oh, really, she hated spots, Like yeah, it's Vermont's like a weird like a weird country Boston accent in a weird way.

Like, but he is doing a good accent, this guy, I think.

And Rollins is like, maybe you didn't know everything she did for fun and he goes, no, we met Noah, her fiance, like two weeks after she met him, Like they were so in love and that's why they knew that the cops were wrong about her being killed by a random man at a bar.

It's just like not her life.

So she was a kindergarten teacher and Noah was traveling on business and she remembers that she called the mom and was like, I missed my guys so much, Like we really don't thing this man.

You have killed our daughter. So we're back with Harold.

And there's tons more photos on the table and they're pushing to get a confession, and Benson's pacing like, Sacramento, February nineteen eighty seven, Teresa your first victim. Then he says, yeah, yeah, she screamed when I did her, And Tomarro continues victim to Philly Marley and he says, yes, Washington, Diane, Yeah, she just laid there for Gene's.

Kind of weird too, that, like we just jump into this scene where he's fully confessing.

Now, yeah, we gotta assume a couple hours two.

Minutes ago he was like, what do you mean just because I had sex with her doesn't mean I killed her?

And now he's like, yep, did her? Did her? Did her?

Like maybe the bullying about him being impotent helped, Like I don't know, so then uh oh, Gina, she was nuts, Yeah, yeah, whatever, Yeah, I did them all.

What can I say?

And then they're like number five here in New York and he goes, no, I never met her, and they seem stumped, and Craigan's like, it's been over fifteen hours and he won't confess to the fifth and Benson's like, what do we have on her? Dana Lewis repeats all the overlapping elements of the case, and Rollins is in the meeting to filling them in on what the parents said and how she wouldn't take home a stranger from the bar, and then also forensics are negative on prince

He says, take much.

They love him over there, and I can't tell if it's sarcastic or sincere thoughts sarcastic. Okay, so they hate him, and we're off to the storage room. It's Rollin's and munch and so so many boxes piled super high. It's

What do we do?

So now we're back in interrogation and they keep just like number five, Kira New York, you did it? And he says, no, she's not even my type, red hair, yuck.

I didn't do her. And they're like and they're like, we can prove it.

We have your DNA and he says, whatever you say, and Amaro goes, no, we need to hear you say it. But like he admitted to the others, why would he lie like I just say it when they're just so onto something. And then I'm like, like, why did you even need to get him on another account of murder.

You got him on four Like.

I think there's a jowsier for the parent, and I think that's all it's like usually about is like closing the case and like getting the closure for the.

It's just it's like, just get him on other stuff. He says, I want to get out of this room, and Benson's like, that's not going to happen till you tell the truth, and he yells, I didn't touch this bitch, and the camera pulls back to reveal Craigan and Lewis watching this all go down. He then again yells, I hate redheads and that is like, I'm going to ask for a lawyer if you keep playing these games. And Craigan's like, why is he doing this? Lewis says to Craigan,

Thank you.

She says, he lets her in without even saying a word. She comes in and introduces herself and tells the detectives, your captain said you can take a break and we're going to keep talking. He's all yours, agent, Amaro says, and they both walk out. So she walks in. She's like, hey, here's your friend. You know you're going back to prison in that chair.

That sucks.

There are places where you'll be lucky to get out of that chair, or lucky to even get a bucket, but there are other places that are more enlightened. And he's like and then he's like, what do you want and she says, I know you killed her. And then they're like, no one has to know about that. Just tell me the truth right now. Everything was going to

She's like, let it go.

She's like, I think the man who did this is not the man you are today, but you have to own up to it to move on and want you to have peace, Brian, don't you want that too?

Peace? And he says yes.

Well, take another look, she says, and see if you remember her, And she says so pretty, so young, those eyes, and we see all the photos on the desk and the crime scene pics are very vivid and scary, and she says, do you remember Harold looks super sad and says, I remember Amaro's filling Benson in on Rollin's evidence box escapades and the detective who checked the boxes out was unrelated to the case and doesn't remember anything, and then she says, cold case more like lost case.

Okay, Carrie Bradshaw.

A man walks in and asks to speak to detect to Rollins, and he's Noah Bunning and he was Kira's fiance. Her parents called and so he flew in from Seattle quickly, and Dana Lewis comes out into the squadroom excited and gloating, and the man Noah, goes Dana and he recognizes her but is also confused.

They hug.

She tells Noah, I think we finally got him, and Amarro is suspicious and like him and Benson exchanged glances, which leads us to like a little done done moment, So we're back to exactly where we were, just back in the squadron and Benson doesn't buy the confession and she's like, wait, he confessed to cure it too, and she says, yes, I mean you took him to the edge.

I just flipped him over.

And Noah's like, I can't believe this, and Dana says, I know, it's all a shock. I got to get my team. I'm gonna call them and I'll fill you in later. Craigan says that Nick can do that, and she quickly agrees, says of course, and says we'll catch up later.

Nick grabs Noah and they walk off.

Benson and Dana stay to talk and Craigan is gonna call the da. Nick then swirls back without Noah to be like, that's so weird. You said you didn't know the family, and she's like, well the parents, but yeah, but I you know this, Noah, we've actually known each other since college and Tomorrow doesn't like that she never mentioned that, and Benson's got her girls back and he's like, that was twenty five years ago, bro chill out and she explains that she was a senior, he was a freshman.

They went to Tulane.

She says that he had a crush on her, but that his life was like turned upside down and we pant to Noah and he's looking at the photos of the suspects and he's like, none of these guys mean anything, and he lasts. When Tomorrow asked if they watched basketball together, he's like, she's from Vermont, Hello, cross country skiing is life.

She's not a sportscal So the.

Night of the murder, he was at Duke because he was a textbook salesman. He then goes into a little monologue like he doesn't think about it every day, but since you know, he's gotten married. Since then, he's gotten the kid he got divorced, but not a month goes by that something doesn't remind him of Kira. He gets up and he's being fled with memories and thoughts, and he shares that her parents never bought what the cops

She says, Nick, we're good.

Dana gave me the blow by blow, and He's like, well, did she tell you that she dated Noah on and off after college? And Benson's like, I mean, she's a real private person. Amar was like, if she talked cases with him, he could have known the mo O and did it, and Benson's like, his alibi checked out, but I guess we can double check it.

So they're gonna double check.

So then they're like, why don't we find the og detective to the case and ask some more questions to him and so then they ask, so when Lewis broke into the interrogation, was that your idea or his? And it was hers and she was obsessed with Brian and Benson's like, if you think Noah's punk, asked Trickter, there's not a chance, and they're like, well, maybe she's protecting this dork. They did day and Finn and Rollins go

Yeah why a legend, children's developmental legend.

And he has a fun pattern sweater on that I'm upset with. And he says that she was a genuine victim, and I do hate that phrasing, but he said not a drop of liquor in the house, and it's like, so if you have a bottle of vodka in the freezer, you're not a real victim. It's like, yeah, I hate police culture. But Kira was a teacher. The fiance's airtight alibi there like it was receipts, airplane tickets, phone records, and after interviewing him, there was like no way.

His heart was super broken.

Rollins is like, was the FBI there, and he's like, ugh, yeah, they had some young girl profiler and she acts like it was her crime scene and there and that we were just the hired help. And Finn asks if she had mentioned she knew the fiance and he says, nope, she was all business. You know what I'm thinking about, Like the FBI is always like, oh the fuck the FBI. Won't they work together? But I'm sure the FBI thinks that the police are stupid, like we all think the

Yeah, because i mean, like if you look at the hierarchy of it, it's like anything else. The FBI is supposed to be like the best of the best, like the people that go there, so they look down on people like that are lower than them.

But also I do think.

It's weird that you can't do drugs because remember we met that couple in Nashville where he worked as a police officer like.

Someone's husband, but he wanted to be in the FBI. And they try to recruit him.

But when they asked if you did drugs, he's like I tried weed once and you're done, Like you can't do it.

Yes, it's so crazy.

Oh did I ever tell you that one time my friend got a job at the FBI, Like, not as an agent. I think it was something else and I was his interview reference.

Like an FBI agent came to my work.

We went out to a like a coffee place, and they asked me all these questions about him.

It was cool. Did you tell the truth?

Yeah, he was a good guy, Like there was nothing I wasn't like you know.

But I just don't understand why you can't be a stoner in the FBI.

I don't get it.

I don't think you could have while it's illegal, you can't habitually be a marijuana user. What if you were like overlooking cases with cartels and marijuana. Yeah, but once I tried it one time in college? Is crazy?

Yeah, Like because you don't want to because then if do you think they like they could figure out and like that's why you can't lie like I would.

Just I thought that I heard something a few years ago that they were changing that kind of thing, but maybe I'm wrong. All right, they were changing like the whole I've tried it once. Thing like, obviously, if they test you and you've smoked like within the time of the test, maybe they can kick you out because they think you're like an habitual user. But I don't know. Yeah, I mean whatever. In ten years it's all going to be legal.

Go well, hopefully, yeah, no abortion, but we could be high. Finn asks if she had mentioned she knew the fiance, and he says no, but she was all business. So then we cut back the precinct and we're in the bunk bedroom and Tomorrow is helping Brian into the bed from his chair, and he's kind of pissed. He goes, that was way too long for me to be in the chair. It's like, not cool. But he's not tired, he says, And Tomorrow asks, why you got something on

Yeah. So he's like, riddle me.

This the only sex life I've had in twenty five years is all up here and he points to his head. The other four girls, I remember every single detail. I replay it all the time. This last girl, it's like the tape gott E Race. And we cut to Benson and Lewis at the bar and she asks, Dana is the reason you stayed on the case for Noah and she admits partly. And she's like, so he called you after the murder and Dana confirmed and she says yes.

So Craigan leaves and says, we'll get you a camera.

Amorrow approaches Craigan to watch from the window and says, okay, Brian's in the crashroom and everyone's.

Informed not to go in there. Good good.

We cut to Tomorrow setting up a video camera in the room and they're like, listen, Brian's having a lot of stomach issues. Unis are cleaning him up. We got to just you know, that's it is what it is.

So Dana as I love how the excuse is just like diarrhea. We'll be on it soon, but it's just right now a lot of diarrhea.

Uh.

Dana asked him, since he's been spending the most time with him, what's his vibe, and it's the same shit, like he's sad and feels bad, but not the last one. She thought about that there's no seman found at the scene. Maybe he failed to perform and doesn't want to admit it. He also says that he seems really upset that she was pregnant and at a bar, so the videos up to Morrow. Says he was like setting it up and

Did Kira go to school with you and Noah?

And Dana responds that knows since he was younger than her and she was even younger than him, But then you were still in contact with Noah like me when he met Kira, Like, are you sure you guys never met or knew each other? And She's like, I don't remember, it was so long ago, and then she asks if she ever met Kira and she's like, honey, I can't remember,

Told him about Noah not being good for this.

So then Rollins goes but we did find out that Lewis was on the crime scene, and Amarro informs us that she told Benson she was down in Georgia at the time, So lies, lies, lies. Craigan plays sneaky games. He enters interrogation, is like, hey, Finn and Rollins are back, just filling you guys in, and oh, Dana Lewis, the detective from the case, mister Sesame Street sends his best. Benson makes a face. I thought you said you were

And you didn't fill me in?

And Benson's like, come on, you had a blind spot for him, And she's like why because I dated him in college and Benson says, well, Noah says it's much more than that. So Harden says, well, it wasn't to me, it wasn't that serious. I didn't take it seriously at all, and Benson is cold hearted and says even though he ended it after meeting her, and she's like, I was that Quantico. I'm consumed with my career, not obsessed with

I see?

And she says, what's going on here? If I didn't know better, I would say this was an investigation? And Benson, without skipping a beat, asks should I mirandize you. Louis sits down cocky and says, you got something to ask me?

Ask me.

Benson leans over and says, talk to me, Dana, how did we end up here? So Louis responds, like, where do you think we are? And Benson goes, Brian's not good for this. And then it's like, Noah has an airtight alibi as well. And if you're like me, like we both are working in this industry, you profile killers and suddenly you're hiding personal ties with the deceased, like you can see that. I'm questioning what's going on here? And she says I was in Georgia undercover and I

I bet it's at least a storage facility of some kind, because like to buy all those I mean it was like roof to ceiling, like fifty foot ceilings.

So many boxes. Would love to know where they filmed the box scenes. Next time we talked to Neil Barr, let's get this one on. Well, this is power him, but if we get warn light, we'll ask him. So then Craigan hangs up and goes Finn go to the boxes, and Finn's pissed. He's so sad, so he walks off while Robin's and tomorrow He's like, he can't go to Miami and now we have to go to the box room.

He's like now I gotta go hang out with Munch. He's gonna try to convince me to buy a bar with him again, like fuck.

So when Finn leaves sad, then Rollins and Tomorrow are still in Craigan's office when Rollins suggests following through with the latex gloves and using that since she mentioned them. So Rollins comes in and whispers to Benson, and Lewis laughs like, bitch, stop whispering, Just tell me what the break in the case is. Rollins comes in and says, you have you have a problem here. The forensic evidence you talked about is gone. But you know that, don't you?

Now I just want to say Star Jones, but no, I don't star either.

So because she she pled the fifth like on the It's so funny when I hear plead the fifth, I think about Bravo and Andy Cohen more than I think about the court of law. So Star Morrison, Star Morrison, Star Morrison, thank you for looking that up. So then it's like, so you check the gloves he stuffed in her mouth and Rollins says, no, they weren't in the box. But you know what was Kira's fingernail clippings and there

But it's like, you gave yourself up.

This is like this is an FBI like mistake, Like you would you could have admit that later like once they find out, you be like, wait, what what are you talking about? But so like yeah, preempt that your shit's gonna be there. That's like a guilty person, and then she goes and all of these bluffs, you guys, I wrote the book on them there. The problem is they don't work on someone who isn't guilty. Noah comes to talk tomorrow, and he doesn't get why he's back there,

A few months?

And when he told her, she lost it and wouldn't stop shaking, And finally he gets it. He asks, so you're telling me it wasn't a stranger And he's like, so it was more than just to break it, and wasn't it. So we cut back to Lewis and Benson, and Benson's playing her like, I'm sure there was a super good reason for anything that you had to do, and she's like, you've used every tool here, and if I've had anything to confess, I would just do it

Benson says, and it was you. It's like what you told the captain.

How Brian found out that she was pregnant while she was begging for her life And she shakes her head no, and Benson's like, that was fucking you in that room, killing or as she begged for her life and the life of her unborn child. And that's from Chicago. Do you remember that? Like Renee on the stand, I thought you would. I thought that would penetrate. And Amaro was like, is that how you found out? A week after the motel dumping Kira was murdered And She's like, I could never.

She says, I'm just like you.

I've dedicated my entire life to justice and doing good in the world, you know me? And Benson responds, I do, And She's one of the best Nick, but she can't help wondering if all that sacrifice is to make amends and make up for that one mistake. And she's like, please don't say that, Olivia, please, and Benson continues on, no wonder you spent so much time undercover because you were running away from your self, Dana, from what you've had done. It must have been so hard to keep

He's using both of us.

And then she said she felt sorry for Lewis, Like you can't tell someone and you feel sorry for them when they're at the end of their rope, they will kill you. Like not to blame the victim, but like that is a rude thing that like I feel really sorry for you. That's gonna get someone to pop off, Like, yeah, that's that's not a chill statement to say, so she said she felt sorry for Louis, but they were meant

Yeah, because Benson was like, this is another one of me. This is like someone like me who's given it all up for the job and like does and has like a pure heart.

And then it's like, nah, you're the only good person.

Well yeah, because that happened to her season nine with Signature as well with Erica Christiansen, and like she that really touched her too, because it's like, oh, we're like we're girl cops doing it for ourselves. And then it's like she ended up being a looney tune too. I also, like I wonder if Dana Lewis in this moment felt the like relief of a confession that she was telling Brian.

Usually people feel after the yeahs, like yeah.

I feel like that was like a foreshadowing about the brick and like the weight that.

Well, No, I was also gonna say that she's married his kids, like it sucks.

Yeah, don't you also think it's weird that they didn't cast like just a smidge of a hotter guy to play Noah, Like he's such a dork and he had this badass f like pre FBI woman and then he has this beautiful kindergarten. I'm like, let's get a little bit of a hotter guy. I'm just being lucist right now because I thought Noah was kind of schlubby.

But maybe Noah was hotter in his twenties.

Sure well, let me get into the real case, because it's it's a wild one and I.

Don't do you remember? Do you remember hot or Not? Yeah?

I do.

Maybe we should play that with Noah on our Instagram hot.

Or Not and we'll just humiliate the actor. Listen, do you know anything about this case?

No?

Except yes, because people keep writing us obsessed and they want ok and more, and you've been dying to do this crime forever. So I've heard rumblings, but I'm ready to be educated.

Okay, we will be right back after these messages. We are back, and let me take this from the very tippy top. This is a crime that takes place in the LA area, which I honestly completely forgot that this happened.

Like so close to like where I live.

So John Rutten was a student at UCLA majoring in mechanical engineering from seventy eight to eighty two. He had dated a fellow student there named Stephanie Lazarus. One source I read and said she was a poly sci major. Another says sociology. Either way, she's from Seami Valley, which is about forty minutes Outsiday useless.

Yes, majors, you know it doesn't matter, interchangeable and this is coming from a sociology major, but like this isn't real, it doesn't matter.

Yeah, So she's from seem Valley and that's like a that's like a cop town. That's like I remember see Me Valley from the OJ stuff, like one of the cops that took the gloves like brought it home to his house in seem Valley and then brought it in the next day to like the police. And so I always associate seem Me Valley with a my friend's wedding I went to there, and b it's a cop town. So that's where she grew up and lived later in

I wish I knew you and your cigarette years, Like it's just so funny that you'd be ripping cigarettes.

Like Liza, I was a heavy smoker, Like I smoked all the time, Like it was never too early for me to smoke. I'd be like eight am on the way to a meeting. I'm smoking, like I was a fucking smoker, much like in the episode Stephanie and John loved to fuck, like their relationship was like mostly hooking up.

Says fucking it sounds like yeah.

So allegedly Stephanie would like steal his clothes when he showered and like take pictures, like take naked pictures of him sleeping, which she was very horny for him. And then John thought the relationship was mostly about that, just like physical stuff. But then this one article I was reading said that they didn't actually even have sex until after they graduated in nineteen eighty two.

Before that, it was just a lot of like hooking up.

But then they went on to have sex around twenty to thirty times between eighty one and eighty four, so they were like on and off again fuck buddies and he was not into labels and says that she was never his girlfriend. Okay, In the summer of nineteen eighty four, he meets Sherry Rass And I think this case always confused me too, because there was a recent case of Sherry Peppini, who's the woman who staged her own kidnapping. You remember, she was like jogging and she like left her earbuds

I hope there's an spe based on it.

Yeah.

Anyway, there's something I love about staging your own disappearance.

I really love.

That it was like a wild gone like the real life Gone girls what everybody was like calling it. But anyway, different Sherry's this is Sherry Rosmussen and Vanity Fair calls her quote a tall Scandinavian beauty with light brown hair, a broad face with high cheekbones, and wide set eyes under dark arching eyebrows. Okay, Vanity Fair wants to fuck her. And they both liked to run. Both John and Sherry liked to run. They're both everybody in the story is

But still he cheated.

He also said about Stephanie, it was clear she was very upset that I was getting married and moving on, like after she found out about the engagement. And it turns out that the night of their the night that they had their like closure sex, she had a male roommate who was another cop, and that she came home and was like, John broke up with me, and then they did buddy sit ups together to make themselves to make her feel better, Like they just did like damnedem

What's going on?

So anyway, some people thought that Stephanie was kind of trying to insert herself into John and Sherry's relationships.

A little bit like third wheel style, Like, there.

Was this incident that's written up in a couple places where Stephanie brought her water skis over to John and Sherry's apartment so that John could wax them for her. And Stephanie was looking all hot in workout clothes when she did it. So John agreed to wax the skis, and Scherry got pissed at him, rightfully, and was like, what's going on, Like why is she stopping by her

Lol.

So, in fact, as we've seen time and time again, this detective Meyer had heard from the neighbors about these two Latino men who had been burglarizing homes in the Van Nights area and had even at one point assaulted a woman. So he decided this is who did it. And he never strayed from that narrative. He just got that narrative like fixed on it and was like, this is it. So John had been at work, he had an alibi, and he.

Was not a suspect.

He was also much like they said in the episode what the original investigator, Roscoe Orman's character said, he was visibly distraught, like this guy was broken hearted, like no one thought it was him. There was no motive, no insurance, They had no history of problems together, you know, like, so it was everyone testified around them that they were like wildly in love. John himself thought Stephanie had nothing to do with it, and so Mayer believed him and

And is this.

Motherfucker still working? Like this kind of cop should be fired immediately with no retirement, you know what I mean, Like.

That's a great question. I mean this, Yeah, I don't know. This was like any other job. If you fuck up like this, like nurses always say it, it's like if you kill a patient, you're in trouble.

Yeah.

I just don't understand how you could be bad at your job, truly fuck up investigations by the law, covering evidence, and then be like back the blue just protect that.

We're just our friends.

I know. I don't know if this guy was I don't know if Lyle Mayer was the guy that actually did the covering up.

Nobody really knows.

Actually I'll get more into that, but like you know, he definitely fully just ignored leads because he had his own version of what he thought the crime was.

Like, yeah, exactly what you're saying. He did a bad job. It was twenty six years ago.

I'm sure he's off the force now anyway, But I doubt he got suspended.

I'm sure he's just like retired.

So there's audio recordings and notes of every other interview of everyone they talked to in the first few days of the investigation, but there's nothing about Stephanie being specifically mentioned, and both John and Nells remember speaking to the cops and mentioning this person, and those interviews were not recorded or the recordings have gone missing. So later Nells was

Have you asked the lady cop?

And then when DNA testing became like much bigger, because this was the mid to late eighties, like DNA I think started popping like early nineties, he called the LAPD and was like, okay.

Can you run the evidence?

And the DNA found it the scene and he was told that the department had a limited budget and could not afford to run such tests. So he offered to pay for the tests himself, and he even had a lab straight up willing to do the work. And he said he was told them that He was told by them that the DNA would do no good without a suspect, which may have been true because their database wasn't like a full database yet, like it might not have solved

Infuriating. Okay, like just gonzo.

Any detective can sign out any kind of fucking evidence and it doesn't matter. This man may not have even done it. Someone could have just looked up a random CoP's name and like written it down. So for eighteen years, the file and whatever evidence was left was just like rotting away in storage. And in nineteen eighty nine, wildly John even met up with Stephanie in Hawaii for a scuba trip, and first he called the detective to confirm that Stephanie was not linked to his wife wife's murder,

So they wanted to like, Okay, if you.

Cops aren't doing anything, you detectors aren't doing anything, let's get you working on some of these cold cases. So this woman named Jennifer Francis was a criminalist with that unit, and she got Cherry's case. She was very confused when she started going through the file. She was like, where's the swab from the bite? Like where's the DNA, like the swab from the bite, and She's like, since it wasn't in the file, she checked the coroner's freezers by hand.

So they goed and love that homicide and art or her next to you.

I know, but like apparently she was great at her job. She had like she had been building up this really big case for three years against this person who had like stolen art from an old person and was kind of like participating in elder abuse and like there was this like a valuable piece of art. Anyway, that case went to shit and I'll tell you you'll find out very soon.

Why. So they call John Rutten, the you know, the husband in.

The case, and he was like, yeah, you guys have always known about her, but I don't think she did it, and he refused to believe that she had anything to do with it. Then they called Nell's the dad, Who's like, are you actually fucking kidding me? Like, I've been calling you guys and telling you guys about this fucking woman forever, Like how are you just calling me now in two thousand and nine years after this crime, twenty three years

Oh, she was off.

Does she own any weapons? Oh yeah, she owns the murder weapon. Like so much crazy lazy police work. So now these guys need her DNA, okay, but they don't want to ask her for it. They want to get it sneaky style to not alert her that they're onto her. So they follow her and her adopted daughter to a trip to Costco and after they eat, they grab the drink cup that she leaves behind. Classic you don't think this shit happens, It happens. And then the DNA from the bite on sherry was done done a match.

So I'm just scared, Like the dad is dead by this point and never saw justice or did he know?

Okay? So in jew the whole fucking Department.

In June two thousand and nine, they bring in to talk to her and and you can watch the entire interrogation on YouTube and it is in the show notes, and it's wild, like you just can like tell she's guilty, but she's also like.

This is what what are we talking about? This is crazy, like it's it's nuts.

And did she look super hot? Was she wearing a tube star? I think those days are behind her.

She has kind of a wild face, like one of the articles described her as having like an elastic face, like like big expressions and like that is kind of what she looks like. But I also think people overact a little bit when they're guilty. So they bring her in. At first, the questioning is very casual. They're like, so, we're working on this cold case. Had you ever met Sherry? And she was like, god, I don't know. Like it's very like the way that we're talking to Dana Lewis

I think her name was Shelley Sherry.

So she's pulling all that shit like you haven't been thinking about this for the past twenty three years NonStop. So she's sighing and saying geez a lot and like really putting on an act, like what geez, what do you guys? I mean it's like, yeah, okay, I saw her one time at her work. It's not like we went to lunch or something like. It's wild and they're asking her if she ever had a physical altercation with Sherry, and she just kept saying, that doesn't sound familiar. I

And she was.

Apparently, as I said before, mostly beloved by colleagues, and people were very shocked to hear about that she could have had something to do with this. But a few colleagues actually said that she could get angry kind of on a whim, and they had a nickname for her, which was Spazarus. And I mean, obviously that's a problematic word. I'm not using it. This was the you know, eighties and nineties. So she was allowed to retire early from

I don't think.

So. She was arraigned in July of two thousand and nine,

So yeah, but you're a cop, Yeah, you know what I mean.

I'm sorry, Like you're a murdering cop and rotten jail for six months, like I give a shit, yeah, no problems destroying evidence, and like.

The amount is just shocking.

It's like, yeah, but why aren't you giving ten million dollars to millionaires who killed their girlfriends? Like I don't know that they could be getting ten million as well, but I see what you're saying, Like it is more like an abuse of power, and I'm sure they like look down on it more. But eventually a judge like set aside some charges that would have allowed them to go for the death penalty.

Also I am just reading in this at this.

Point in my research, I read for the first time that the marriage certificate was stolen in the attack. So this woman was like full on scorched earth. Hell, hath no fury, like a woman scorned stole the marriage certificate wild, I can't even so. I don't know why this trial

My mind cannot like absorb them. But I found out that.

But essentially Nells's case was dropped as time barred because they waited too long to file it, I guess. And then all the lawsuits were either were dropped against the LAPD or were found in favor of the LAPD. So apparently a reinvestigation by the department did not find that there was any evidence of an internal cover up.

Of course, but you know.

I don't really think they have an IAB guy like Tucker trying to fuck the cops over all the time. He's probably like high fiving them, like, oh do you burn that box of evidence? The missing evidence from the case file is a complete like mystery. It remains completely unknown what happens to that evidence. And uh, as I was reading this, I was like, how has this not been a movie?

How has this not been turned into a movie?

Like this is a wild case, like this would be at worst a lifetime movie, but at best you could make it into like a super cool, like.

Psycho sexual thriller.

So I find a Deadline article that Endeavor and Anonymous Content acquired the rights to Matthew mcguff's book The Lazarus Files colon a cold case investigation. This is a book about the case. I used one of his articles as a source that he wrote in The Atlantic. This is a book about the case and the LAPD cover up that this guy worked on for nine years and he

She sold the rights to her article.

And created the act, and I feel like Gypsy Rose was like pissed to her. So this woman who wrote that Gypsy Rose article and created the act is the one who has been hired to adapt this into a TV show.

Her name is Michelle Dean and she was This.

Is an article from March of twenty twenty one, So maybe it's still in the works, but it's been a year and a half.

Maybe it got scrapped. I'm like, can I write it like I'm upset? Let us in?

Yeah, let us in, Like I think this could be such a cool movie. And like it's the Vanity Fair article. I you know, all who play hard? Who I play hard? And my notes or what like, all my sources are great, but this Vanity Fair article is like great because they bounce back and forth between bits of her interrogation and what happened in like real in the case timeline, and they just go back and forth, and I feel like

Mcguff's article did the same thing. So whatever.

This man, Matthew McGough worked very hard on this case and I hope that he gets some TV money out of it.

But that's that. And they took a lot of it.

Like in SVU it was nineteen eighty seven, in real life it was eighty six. Like there were just like tons of tons of similarities.

Yeah, damn.

She still maintains her innocence. I mean, like she never said like, all right, fuck it, I did it. But you know, I think if you've been lying to yourself and covering up a crime for twenty three years.

You might actually you didn't do it. Who knows.

I'm like looking at her face trying to think who would play her, and I can't. I'm not casting it as quick as i'd like. Oh yeah, let me look, we'll figure it out before it airs.

We'll do it. I don't know.

Yeah, let's go to our interview and in our post mortem, we will cast this woman. Guys, our guest today is an actor who has positively affected the lives of literally thousands, if not millions, of children multiple generations. Best known for portraying Gordon Robinson on a little show you may have heard of called Sesame Street for forty two gd years.

I can't. We were talking to a legend. Amazing. Well, we got to know, how often are people stopping you on the streets? How old Eli Gordon?

Well that's that's that's the main attraction for viewers, you know, after what forty years of Sesame Street is you know, it's pretty phenomenal. Actually yeah, but I've done you know, so many other projects. You know, of course, theater, live theater, you know, Broadway off Broadway, regional theater, you know, so many different I forget most of what I've done.

I feel like when people see you, it's like when you see a teacher outside of school or something like, I just can't imagine, like a kid, like if.

You can't see you after they've seen you on Sesame Street, it's like, what so you said you don't remember a lot of stuff you've done, which makes sense you've had a very long career, but do you remember your SBUs? That's what we're here to talk about, of course, and like we're here to talk about the episode that you were in Secrets Zoomed. But as I was doing the research,

Wow, that's that's really something I had no idea.

Yeah, because it was just like you're you know, your scene is like you're with a kid and you guys find the dead body and the scene is so gross that I think I was focused on that and not on you.

Yes, and I was a park ranger if.

From that message, yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, Wow.

It brings brings back some memories, you know.

So when you did so, I mean obviously SVU is like could not be a further walk away from Sesame Street, right, Like it's a completely different type of show.

There is one other thing I did well, actually two that are really far removed from Sesame Street. One was All my Children, but I was a bad guy and I was doing Gordon, you know, simultaneously, so it was like, you know, who is this guy?

Is he? Is he Gordon? Or or is he Tyrone?

Yeah?

And I used to watch All My Children when I was really little, So I bet if I had ever caught you and then caught you on Sesame Street, that would have been a really confusing, very confused.

Mm hmm.

My uh little you know time with Tyrone on on uh All my Children was it was kind of looked down upon that this guy who was you know, uh on a children's show was was also a pimp on on All My Children. Yeah, so that was that was something that I had to kind of, yeah, you know, recover from.

And you know, I wasn't. I didn't have to you know, leave leave the Sesame Street for having appeared.

I mean, isn't that what acting is all about.

Right, exactly exactly?

The pimp one day, Big Birds from the next.

Yeah.

Well, I guess because they're both on during the day, there is a possibility. Like with SVU, it's like s fews on at ten o'clock at night. Kids really shouldn't be watching they shouldn't be awake watching TV. But all my children, I guess it would be confusing if you were checking around for PBS and you see.

Yeah, yeah, and that I can, I can.

I can really identify with that, Yes, especially since I have you know, five children of my own who yeh, you know, of course they know that I'm really dead, you know.

Yeah, Well, can I ask a question about Sesame Street and I don't Maybe this doesn't make any sense, but was there a specific Sesame Street character that you felt like you connected with the best, like you an Oscar.

You like, Who's who's the guy?

Uh Well, my favorite, uh character among the puppets was Elmo, oh, Elma, Elmo Almo.

Frank Oz, who was the puppeteer was it is, I should say, a genius.

I mean he has so much he brings so much humor, and you know, he's so quick on his feet he makes up stuff that and if and of course if you're working with him, you have to really, you know, be on your toes because he's he's that good. He's able to, you know, create on the moment, you know. And uh so it was always always fun to working with him. I've worked with Frank Frank Oz a few times. Not Frank Frank, Jim Henson. Jim Henson of course worked

Bird who is the sweetest natured thing human or not human?

But how did she do both? Because I feel like Big Bird in Oscar.

His name is Carol, Carol the Guy A R R O L. Carol Spinney, But he.

Do both and what did he do when when Big Bird and Oscar had to interact they didn't.

Oh, I can't believe it. I don't think I ever noticed that.

Which Muppet do you think would sadly be on s v U as a criminal?

Oh?

My goodness, I guess Cookie Monster the most. Yes, yes, and Cookie Monster was Oh gee, who played.

That was Frank also Frank Genius, Yeah, he did Cookie Monster and Grover Wow?

Wow?

Yeah, I mean I guess I could also see Oscar the Grouge finding a body.

You know, of course he's in the garbage, so you know he can be on the show too.

And then there was also Elmo. I don't know if you remember remember Elmo?

How can you forget?

I cannot remember the Little Red Monster.

No, there's something weird about Elmo, like the way that like kids are obsessed with Elmo right away. Like my three year old saw Elmo like just on a thumbnail once and was like that, I want to watch that, and you.

Know, identify with him because yeah, he's the kid, he's the kid in the book, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Some wonderful times. You know, we had so much fun, you know, and we were we were like family.

Anyway.

You know, we knew those characters, you know, as personal friends and their creators you know, were just geniuses.

Now when you go on sets, like when you showed up on SVU, were people extra to see you?

I'm assuming people.

Well if they grew up watching Yeah.

For this one though, did you know Harold's paranow from.

Oh yes, of course, yeah Harold, yes, yeah.

Yeah, he was like the main bad guy in this one, but not really well well no, not in the end, but yeah, but he you know, the twist is that it's not him, but uh, but you are playing this cop that they go back to, you know, check on your info from when you were and you were like really easy, breezy, like I believed you were a cop completely, Like I wasn't getting boredon anymore at all.

Like have you been a cop before?

I've played severals?

Okay, yeah, I think I saw you were on the wire. You played a car of course, yeah, yeah, yeah, because you're just like sliding right into the cop language and just talking to them like you were another cop.

And it was like the very yeah, we need you back on SVUS A criminal you know, you played a cop, you played a park ranger.

We need you back.

No more.

Mister, you should really explore your you got to murder somebody or something.

Absolutely, hopefully they're listening. Yeah, thank you so much.

Do you have any other stories from Lawn Order, SVU or anything you'd like to share with me?

It was a long time ago, long yeah yeah, mmmm.

Well, you know, I love I still love doing live theater, and whenever I have have the chance to be on stage, you know, whether it's off Broadway, regional theater, you know, or Broadway, you know, I just love that experience of being with a live audience of people who give you all that energy because you know they're in the moment too, you know, And so that's that's my favorite.

Well, I hope we see you on a stage too, And thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us.

Absolutely, what a sweetie, such a sweet man.

Oh my god, I love Gordon slash Roscoe h slash Jerome slash Jerome slash Grandpa.

I really loved it.

You know what, I just realized I didn't mention in the intro that I'm really passionate about. I was with someone that worked on SVU and I got iced Tea's lunch order, texted Cara.

No response.

I like, when I looked at the time stamp of it, it was the second I got on the highway to drive two and a half hours back from San Diego to LA.

And then I just forgo. I was like, Lisa's texting me about like hot dogs and iced tea. I don't know what's going on. And then I just completely forgot to respond.

And later I get the I cannot believe you didn't respond to the sext, and I'm like, I'm so sorry.

Well, so, for those wondering, he eats one of three things every day for lunch, either two hot talks. One is a chili cheese, one is a Sauer kraut mustard, or he has two slices of pizza, sausage or pepperoni. Or he orders a subway sandwich. The meatball sub with cheddar a legend. So I just love that he has that, Like, if you are that rich and still eating subway, you're a real one.

Like sometimes Carti's husband. Are they married future?

No, I don't think offset. I don't think they're married. I think they're just uh, you know, together. He eats like he eats really silly things.

I wish I remember, like he'll make mac and cheese with ramen noodles and like weird stuff like that, Like I like people that's still kind of don't fully change. Like I'm sure Ice tease eating caviar once in a while.

Oh wait, I'm an asshole. I just looked it up. Cardian Offset got married on my birthday in twenty seventeen, and they're still marriage dum according to according to their Yeah, according to the Internet.

So I photos. Yeah, that's the thing. I don't think we did. I don't think we did.

I think it was like one of those things they just got married and oh it says that they did it in their apartment on this one episode, this one thing I'm on. So but yeah, I love when that is funny, when like people like could literally be just eating sugarfish sushi, Like they could be eating like the best of the best, and they're like a subway Meatball's hub, give me that yoga matte bread and then putting me ball on it, and I want that. But this was a this was like another This is a banger of

Yeah, just release it. Take the bricks on her shoulders, shoulders, babes.

Yeah.

But we also this is a lesson we learned time and time again. Cops are not to be trusted. They will lie to protect themselves, they will do whatever it takes, like it truly so bad at their jobs, refusing to see outside of their opinions or actually do work, or listen to grieving parents trying to find the killers of.

Their daughter, like they're truly trash.

So I think we learned that, and we learned if you want to cost someone, we're a tube top, make a steak, yes, put.

Those shorty shorts on, a little bit of that ass hanging out and get a tube top on and then get over to that girl's place and say if I can't have him, no one will.

But then just don't murder her. And I know you guys wanted who's playing this person?

We'll do a pole. I didn't even think I can. I know, I can't. I can't think. Okay, I can't think of it. She like looks so nuts.

You know what, I bet Sandra Bullet could do a fun job kind of like you know, Sandy Bullock, playing like someone unhinged.

She's never done that. I think that would be fun. She's a little un hinged in forces of nature, but not in a bad way. Yeah, not in a bad way. Yeah. So let's move on to what was Sister peg Do?

Which is our weekly segment where we give you, guys an article, an organization, a book, something to give you more information about what we talked about today. And we want to direct you actually today to another podcast, not you know, don't leave us, but this is an episode Wicked Words, which is a podcast on our beloved Exactly

Thank you so much, I really want I don't know.

Yeah, this is a wild case and I've bet lots of you want to know more like it is so interesting, So.

Thank you for that. And next week please join us.

We'll be doing Dominance season four, episode twenty for twenty so get stoned and watch a horrific crime and great acting and great sexy guest stars.

Okay, bye, bye, guys, see you next week.

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