Rooftop w/ Neal Baer

Of the law and order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories.

Done done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up NSVU podcast.

I'm Kara Klank and I'm Liza Traeger.

And every week we talk about an episode of SVU, the true crime it's based on. And then we have a guest from the episode, and now we gab, we catch up, we chit chat. Obviously, the top of my mind is Melissa McCarthy outside of a Wiener Schnitzel getting hawks from murshahrt.

Rallying, rallying support for mrsha Hard today. I didn't even know they were friends.

This is like a whole new level of select friendship I needed to know about.

And we need to get Melissa on the on SVU.

Yes, if they're good friends, why hasn't she been on sv yet?

I don't know.

That's a really great question because I feel like a lot of her good friends have been on it.

Get her on it, she would be an amazing criminal. Yes, she's never gotten Hillary Swank on it either. Yeah, but I think Hillary doesn't want to do it. Hillary doesn't work. When was the last time she worked?

No, But Melissa McCarthy is that perfect example of like this sweet goofball and like it would be so funny to see her as like a killer or like a psycho mom or something.

We've seen her as a criminal, but in a chill way. Yeah, in that forgery movie, I've watched it on a plane.

Can you ever forgive me? Which I love? Which are our friend's sister directed?

Really? Yeah, Emily Hiller's sister directed that. I didn't know she directed that one. She is busy. Yeah. You know what is cool? All those Emmy.

Nominations came out, and I know so many people nominated for Emmy.

No, I'm just like, what am I not in Hollywood?

I just can'ot believe there's so many talented friends everywhere.

Yeah, congratulations to all of our pals who've been nominated for Emmys. I want Nicole Bayer to win an Emmy. It just means RuPaul won't get an Emmy. But RuPaul has so many Emmys, So just give Nicole Bayer a fucking Emmy. If you're in the Academy listening and RuPaul would be happy for Nicole. I don't think RuPaul would be like, fuck that bitch, let's sliter through. I think you would be like, hell yeah, my.

Girl, Yeah exactly because that video you posted of her in the wheelchair with a boot on her leg being wheeled around wipe out was that deserves an Emmy and it's I.

Took many of those.

I took like four of those on different days and was like, I'm going to make these into a montage for you, and I just never did it.

Oh, that would be too tough. But yeah, Bowen Yang is that iceberg. He's got to win being the iceberg from Titanic.

That's that's goo. Yeah.

There's like also, yeah, people are nominated for like little categories that like you know, performing in a short or like in other stuff too. It's just a lot of people that are in our enter and secondary circles.

Yeah, maybe I can get myself oh and Hacks her favorite show, but maybe I can get to an after party.

That'll be the goal.

A comic last night at my show was like safe space, and I was like sure, because you know, I love to talk shit. She was like, I don't like Hacks and I was like, I can't.

Talk to you about this. I'm sorry, Like, Hacks is basically to me a perfect show.

Wait, you can bleep her? Who was it? Bleep the name? Let's do who was it?

Well?

It was I don't know if you know her.

I do know her, but I thought it was going to be our good friend Blair. And I was like, do I have to stop speaking to Blair?

No?

No, I don't think Blair would have a hot take on Hacks to be how but yeah, she was like, can we like?

And I think she thought I was going to be like, yes, I hate it too, and I was like, oh, I really can't. I like loved it so much, and I was very public about how much I love it. So I really can't like talk shit with you right now. But I wanted to really quickly shout out to the dozens and dozens of listeners who contacted us about their pop rock fellatio experiences. I would say nine out of ten of you did not enjoy.

It at all. I heard.

We got a lot of stories about pop rocks getting stuck in pea holes. We got stories about guys saying it's about like sandpaper on their junk, a couple girls were like it made it taste better, or like he kind of liked it. A couple of people said they had a good time with it, but not very many. Most people thought it was a bad endeavor.

Yeah, I don't Yeah, I don't want it's yeah, I don't get it, honestly.

Like somebody also wrote that you have to get fresh pop rocks, like you can't get stale ones, Like you have to check and make sure that they're really fresh. So how do you check anyone's plint? I don't know.

It's like I think you can kind of tell, maybe by shaking the package if they like are loose and they're shaken up, that they're that they're from, like they're not stuck together.

You know what I mean. I don't know. I'm literally spitballing here.

I don't know.

I don't know if I've mentioned this on the pod before, but I remember there were rumors that a girl gave a blowjob and got bubble gum stuck in the guy's pubes. And it was I was a young age where I was like shocked that anyone's even sucking a dick and so but I remember being like, oh, I guess they're cool.

Yeah that sounds like a something about Mary type of thing that would happen.

Well, yeah, there was so. I mean, childhood rumors are wild. There was one guy my football team. Everyone said he fucked a dog, and I was just like, yep, John fucked a dog.

That's that.

There was one girl where they're like, yeah an orchestra, she had pubes in her braces, and it's like, really, I don't know, just yeah, rumors are crazy, but yeah, I was.

Everybody was. I love our audience is very.

Like open, and everybody was just like, okay, here's what happened when I suck my boyfriend's dick. Like everybody was just very open telling us.

What's up in the DMS. And I think it's it's a no for me on the Pop Rocks BJ.

But I do remember for some reason, this is a vivid memory of mine from a cosmo I read when I was in high school. But it said to like put hair ties around dix and I was like, this is you don't need accessories.

Yeah.

I was just like they're like, take the scrunch you off your head, tie it on a dick, and I'm like, adults are crazy.

Adults are crazy. I mean, this is stuck with me now for what eighteen years, Like, I can't Cosmo was like so fun to read when you were like thirteen, Like it was so.

Like, if you're a grown up reading Cosmo, you need you need professional help, you need an intervention.

Cosmo is for children. Yeah, you know what I.

Started reading after like would I was like maybe fourteen fifteen. If i'd be like on a flight or something, I would starting some No, I would get maxim. I actually thought that the articles were really funny.

Mmmm yeah. Vanity Fair to me, is that the king of well, that's the adult you know. I'm a subscriber.

One day, maybe I'll get a New Yorker. And this is the thing with the New Yorker. I start an article and then I'm like, I'll finish this later. Never finish it later. Yeah, so I know, like the first four paragraphs of every New Yorker article that's geared towards me.

And then I just I can't.

Well, Vanity Fair and New Yorker both will do sometimes like really good long ass expose's about crimes, like they will do like really I remember reading about Amanda Knox.

I think in Vanity fair.

Like a lot of I've read about a lot of like kind of more obscure murders that maybe happen like abroad in those publications, and they're fun. I always like when like there's a sort of a crimey one in one of those.

Yeah, there's a new crimeing Netflix show, but I think it's dubbed.

And uh oh and in Sami about Brazil. Yeah, and what is it when the letters when it's letters.

Oh, subtitles, Yeah, I don't want it. No, well, listen, it's not. I started, I started watching it. They dubbed the whole thing, so, which is other people's voices are speaking English.

Okay, Okay, I can handle that. I don't think I had it with subtitles on. I don't think.

I think, well, because I love a doc where the killer goes yeah I killed him.

Yeah, but this is why, you know, I like.

But it's kind of interesting like that we don't have that much dubbing in the US, like and so it feels like because like English.

Is so you know, the main language in a lot.

Of places, and like it's it's like they're are they are like voice actors. Like there's a woman that's acting as this woman who killed her husband, you know, and she's like he called me this, like he tried to take my daughter away. And it's just interests, like an interesting I don't know, like to dub for a documentary and not like you know what I mean, not for movies or like fiction.

It's interesting what I did instead of watch that.

As I watched, I would say, forty episodes of Manifest.

Oh, yes, that's your new thing. Yeah, And I watched This is Pop. I watch that.

It's like every episode's about a different story about pop music. And the one that I was telling care about this is the one that I'm the most obsessed with is the one about Sweden. It's episode three, and it's all about that record label, Max Martin, Dennis Pops and like all the Swedish hit makers up until now, Like I didn't realize that the Swedes were still doing all the Demilevado songs, all the like this is America that song,

Of the language where it's so cool.

Yeah, they pair it all down because hit Me Baby one more Time was gonna be hit me Up. It's about a phone call, but it didn't fit in the music. Like to them, music comes first. They write the music and then fill in the words, and so hit me Baby, which we were like she wants to get slapped and it wasn't It was about like hit me up, like call me Yeah. So they just talk about like language is interesting and that's why all of them have worldwide hits.

It's like simple language that everyone in the world can understand. That's so yeah.

I mean, if you think of like Ace of Bass, I mean I loved all that they're Swedish.

Ace of Bassis part of the documentary. Of course, I was a huge as of Bass.

I used to calls you one undred in New York when I was in eighth grade all the time and ask them to play the sign.

I used to like, I mean, as a recent immigrant Ace of Bass was everything like that was our families everything like I had a VHS Ace of baits like the nine Oh amazing. But they also they say the Swedes are so good because they like to show how good.

They are, not talk about it.

And I'm like, I don't relate, but they're just like, we like to get work done.

We're not supposed to brag.

No one's I did write a quote down one of the guys was goes, it's unbecoming the brag, especially when you don't have to.

And I was like, that's a good one. That's a good quote. Yeah. But Manifest, let me know. I haven't finished it. But it's a soap opera but with magical powers. There's like sci fi in it.

It's sci fi, it's fortune telling, it's mysticism, it's families, it's the government.

Don't bring it up to Jared. We're already watching Evil. I can't get another show like that.

And I don't think he would like it because it's too campy. I don't think Jara would be like this doesn't make sense, like he wouldn't.

It wouldn't be linear to hand wow, I spot on impression of mine, right, he would be mad.

I know you would be mad because like at one episode, it's like, it's the government, the government's after us, and our kid has cancer. Next episode, the kid doesn't have cancer, never mentioned again, and the government's taking a break, like and suddenly tarot cards are king.

It's very very strange. That's really funny.

But one of the characters that is is in the NYPD.

So, oh, okay, maybe they'll be a crossover Manifest Is it on NBC?

You're watching it on Netflix? I know, but is it an NBC show? I don't think so, is it.

I'm just saying When it is, then there's more chance of across. Marishka shows up on Manifest. One of the Manifest people shows up at the sixteenth Precinct.

Manifest ended. Oh it ended, okay, So this is like.

My imposter thing where I'm like, I need another season and they're this ended eight years ago.

I kind of love that Netflix gives shows like that, like a sort of second wave of fans.

I think that's cool. Oh and let's shout out.

I didn't start watching it yet, but our friend Ashling I saw biboards all across LA of her show, which I think is one of the best shows I've ever seen in my life, and season two is getting critically acclaimed. Yeah.

Her show is called This Way Up.

It's on Hulu here in the States, and it's on Jeez, it's in your She's Irish, so I know we have Irish listeners. It's on where you guys are in the UK. I just don't know what the channel is, but follow her Instagram as we miss be and she's so great. I loved the first season so excited for the second season. She canceled on hanging out with me in New York once so she could finish something for the second season. So make it worth make it worth me getting stood up. Okay,

I need to save you from getting hounded online that Hillary Swank did just start in a Netflix TV show. She was in like two seasons. It's called Away. She was also just in a movie, so she is working. I'm saving you for getting today.

I'm not against Hilluis Swang Swank, Army, rise up, Lisa.

The last time I saw Hillary Swank working was in the Comedians and Cars getting coffee with Julia Louis Dreyfus and they're driving around and Hillary Swank was trying to get a parking spot and they accidentally ran into her.

That's the last time I saw her. Well, she's back, baby, She's on Netflix in a show we've never heard of. Ye, congrats to her. Let's get started. We've got a great episode today. All right.

I'm so excited to go back into the past a little bit and do this episode, which is it's called Rooftop and it is from season three, episode four, so we're the original three seasons.

October nineteenth, two thousand and one. This air to this episode.

Sometimes I just like to say the date so we can place ourselves in the time period, so very early aughts.

Hosts nine to eleven only a month out.

Yeah, a month after nine to eleven. Great, I didn't even think about that. Yes, I don't know why I didn't think about that. I don't always think of everything in context to nine to eleven, but yes, that is very close.

Well, you know, my favorite tweet of all time is someone going that they were in college and someone asked, what's the biggest defining moment of the two thousands, and he's like, thank god, I didn't raise my hand. I was going to say Britney spears and it was nine to eleven and I will share it every time I see it. And yeah, nine to eleven was huge.

Yeah, I mean Britney's pretty huge too, and she keeps enduring. Okay, so we open this episode on a couple making out on a rooftop.

She looks very young.

He's like, come over here, there's a better view in this part of the building. So like they're moving around this little rooftop to try to like make out with the hottest.

Background I don't really know.

And then they hear a door open their footsteps. It's Stabler and Benson. They're to bust up this makeout session and the guy and they go little. The girl's like, who's that and he's like, oh, it's the Sex Police, and you know that is one of my favorite nicknames for the sv crew. This guy's name is Leon, and Stabler really has it out for him. Stabler reveals that Leon has only been out of prison for two weeks and his quote already back at it. So we kind of find out that this guy's got a thing for

I don't know what you're talking about. I'm going to wait for my attorney to get here so he lawyers up.

We find out that Leon was in jail for five years for a sex act with an underage girl, because Stabler finally got someone to.

Testify that they had sex.

Because I think he's had many many victims of underage girls, but only one was able to testify and do a bring forth real charges, so he did five years. Right at this moment in the episode, our girl, Samantha Howard Corbin aka Corbyn Miller's name pops up in the credit, so she was a consulting producer on this episode.

Just a counted, just a fun little thing.

I noticed a pre married I guess Samantha Howard Corbyn. Cabot is like, well, you can't arrest this guy based on something he might have done. And the show deals with this a few other times, like down the road of Like remember there's that episode where the guy has like a full kill room based in his basement of his apartment and he says he's like, I fantasize about killing children, but I've never done it, and it's like thought crime, Like can you arrest people for things that

It will work.

This guy's rap sheet, Leon started at seven years old. He had eleven arrests by the time he was thirteen, and like no one stops to ever be like, hmm, think Leon might have had a traumatic upbringing, Like do you think this might be part of the problem, Like your rap sheet starting at seven is like that's no accident,

And it's also dangerous to zone in on someone because you miss out on other clues or people, like you can't just be like that's my guy, Like that's not.

The police work. Yeah, for sure.

Now Cabbot is walking and talking to executive Ada stan Valani, who is a recurring character played by the lovely Ron Liebman. I love this actor. He has passed away and he was married to icon Jessica Walter, who also passed away this year. Love them as a little couple together, they've

Finn.

You know, season three Finn is very different from season twenty two Finn. He's evolved a lot, and he is sort of defending statutory rapists, like, oh, what are we supposed to check their birth certificates?

Like whatever? Like girls are looking old these days, Like I don't know, it's just not true. Like that's the whole thing, Like the girls looking old. It's like, nah, I see teens.

Now I see people in college, and I'm like, who are these fourth graders?

Right?

Like it is so obvious to me. And now I even laugh at like how I used to use a fake ID to go to bars and clubs. It's like I was clearly a child, you know, everyone must have known it.

Like and guys are like she was wearing a tube top. Kids don't have tube tops, Like I don't know.

Like guys judge by like what they're wearing or how much makeup they have on for like how old they are, and it's like, no, you can pretty much tell.

It's like you want to fuck a kid, Sorry, you're a rapists, Like there's no confusion.

I just feel like teens very much look like children. Yeah. So now Cabat and Huang arrive on the scene.

Huang's like, I think I can make a case that Leon has anti social personality disorder. He knows what he's doing is wrong, and he doesn't care. And uh, you know, most people that he says with HIV like act more, you know, sort of respectful of the society around them, and they disclose and they behave more carefully, and this guy's just not doing that. We find out that he

That's actually what Huang says, but that's Cabot's argument.

And how amazing, Like I forget how excited like to have Stephanie Marsh and bed Wong together is nice, and now that we know that they're friends and yeah, keep in touch, it's like so exciting to see them together totally.

I love, like, I love imagining that once they cut, like yell cut, they're like, want to get brunch later, like they're just friends and yeah, the judge says, you got to prove that he was going to have unprotected sex, so I don't know how they're polanning to do that. But then a rape case comes into the precinct and Elliott thinks it matches Leon's mo, so he'll take it.

Olivia is like, Elliott, I have all this paperwork to do.

I don't know what this is, like an episode where Olivia like can't be involved because she's there, but she doesn't really do anything.

And we didn't mention this is Pixie Pixie Maurice.

Oh yes, this is Pixie. I think the almost she almost got fired for it cut and Finn volunteers to go with. So a lot of this episode is like Stabler and Finn working together.

In the hospital, we meet this poor tea girl.

This girl's a really great actress because I feel so sad for she's like telling about her attack, like through tears, like she's really really like it's really heartbreaking.

And there's something with like when an eye is covered with a bandage, it like escalates the oh no, yes so much it makes it all worse.

Yeah, you're right, and Ipatri really ups the ante.

So she says she met this guy down the block from where she lives. He said he was a promoter and could help her get a wrap audition, that his name was Andre, that he took her to a real restaurant, walked her home, then brought her up to the rooftop started to kiss her and when she said stop, he slapped her and pulled a knife on her and raped her. And he said that he was quote the love machine

So in his mind, this is Leon.

This is like something Leon's done, even though I've heard no proof so far in this episode that Leon's done anything violent to coerce these women into like to rape these women's He is statutorily raping them because they are under age, but they are all like consenting even though they're not allowed to consent. You know what I'm saying, is this like sticky language. I'm just saying he has not pulled a knife, he has not used violent force.

Well, that's where the discussion in the argument comes in. Where if you have a disease like this and you unknowing like you do not tell people. It's like what Stabler said, it's a penis with a deadly weapon, So are you using it? So that is violence purposely? Try like injecting someone with HIV is violence?

No?

No, absolutely, What I'm saying is the ems of these crimes where this guy pulled a knife is not matching to me.

That doesn't match Leon. Leon's never pulled a knife or a gun.

He just sweet talks these teenagers and then yes, has sex with them and has HIV, which is horrible, but it's just to me, it's not totally matching emos. So anyway, Finn and Stabler are staking out Leon's place. Finn confides that he doesn't relate that this is like his neighborhood. He grew up ten blocks from here, ground zero for the sixty eight riots, like he lives in Harlem and

And I do have to add that iced tease ponytails in full fluff.

This is full fluffin full.

Yeah, his ponytail is trying to get an Emmy for Best Supporting Actor here. So Leon rolls up with a seventeen year old girl once again, Stabler like pushes them off against the car, starts to arrest him, and discloses his HIV status to the seventeen year old girl, and she's like, what the fuck, Like she didn't know, so she pieces out and then they have the nineteen ninety three victim come in to do a lineup. She can't I D him. It's been you know, at this point,

She's like maybe once my eye gets better, I can see.

Like it's so sad, so like, I just hate when they have to do lineups and they feel like they're failing by not being able to point out their attacker, because it's.

When really the cops are failing by not having the right person in the light yet maybe right, Sorry, if I want ahead of Scotch.

No, no, totally. So they have to cut Lee on loose.

So now at two of this episode is where things fucking amp up. Now we're at a crime scene and a girl has been tossed from a rooftop on fire, like so horrific. Her name is Aisha Thompson. She's fourteen. The saving grace. I guess is that she was dead before he lit her on fire. I mean, he this person who killed her, uh, strangled her after she performed oral sex on him. And then suddenly this guy like bursts into the crime scene. He's hysterical and upset. His

Guy.

What It also really makes these killers seem less threatening knowing that they're all pissing the bed too, you know.

So Drue, Yes, I have obviously not into setting fires and have never harmed an animal, so I guess I'm not going to pass that test.

Huong suggests that the cops.

Following him might have set Leon off, and that's what like escalated him to murder, and Stabler's like no, no, no, no, no, like you can't blame.

Us for this, like he's getting all mad and pissy.

Well I also love because bd Wong response to that, and he's like, I'm profiling not accusing. Yeah, you know, like it's not about you, Stablery, can you believe that?

He's like, I'm just saying my facts and doing my job and it's not always about what's going on with you. Finn and Stabler go talk to Leon's mom. She's initially like kind of like pissy at them, like, you guys are going to try to put my son in jail for no reason. And they're like, we just caught him with another teenager. So, and she's like, I don't know why he is the way he is. I tried to raise him right. And she's a legend. Actually she's an

Adrian Lennox her name is.

Adrian was yes, and she was the one that was like, even though this is what the law calls.

For, I'm giving you a worse punishment.

Basically because he did that to the boy that raped He was like, actually, I don't believe it. You're off And so she has like she's iconic, and she's like, hey, babe, it actually works both ways, and I don't like their sentence and I'm going to make it worse.

How do you like them? Yes? Yes, yes, this is Wentworth Miller episode two.

Yeah, so it's cool that she was in season three and season fucking twenty two, so it's really it's cool.

They love to bring people back.

The mom thinks that her son might be shooting dope again and said that the cops were because the cops were dogging him and he couldn't handle going back to prison. So Finn and Stabler are like, let's go check out the rooftop because we know Leon loves rooftops. Finn talks about how instead of vacations to Aruba back in the day, they would go to a roofa which was like how they would probably like lie out in the sun or whatever. In Harlem was just go on the roof and they

I was about to be like, how do you just keep making the same mistakes over and over? But then I remembered I do that all the time, So what are you gonna do? Yeah, my stakes are just lower.

Leon.

Leon's mom is at the precinct and she's like, yeah, maybe you didn't kill my son, but you two, you all cops love to stick together.

Don't you.

She has kind of like a great final scene, and then they id the latest victim. All these victims are black, young, good students, have never been in trouble. So that basically leads Huang to conclude that this part must be well educated, attractive, and seem trustworthy, because these aren't girls that are like, yeah, let's go like do drugs or hang out.

These are like good, good girls.

So like why are they going off with this person? In further profiling this perp, Huang says, any challenge to his sense of control would set him off like these, Like even hearing the word no is what could just totally cause him to flip a switch.

And this is an important scene because I feel that is a discussion we have even today where guys are like just say no, Just say if you don't like a guy hitting on you, just say stop. Yeah, it's like no, it's actually quite dangerous. Yeah, this, so this is like a very important scene.

I think, yes, absolutely, And this is an interesting thing that I didn't really think about, but is so true if you look at like a lot of serial killers or like guys that you find out about that have wives or girlfriends like that, Guys like this, Hon says, usually have a submissive wife or girlfriend. Like I have a joke about Ted Bundy having a girlfriend the entire time they were dating, and like she was like a more of a submissive woman and she just wanted a father for her child.

So she was like the perfect part.

Like he never did anything to her, he never hurt her, he never did anything like violent to her, and he was the most violent serial killer. So it's interesting to me that a lot of these guys keep a wife or girlfriend around, maybe for appearances, maybe for alibis. I mean, who knows, because yeah, I think a lot of people think, oh, it's the single, creepy guy that's doing it, not the guy that has a girlfriend with a kid or whatever.

So Rodney shows up in.

The precinct and he's very pissed that they still don't have the sister's killer. And then another girl is found, so this is the third murdered girl that they are finding in this episode, which is great, and it's all on rooftops and the super at.

The building is like very sad. He's like, I really tried to keep the building safe, like this girl was such a good girl. And then they speak to this victim's mother and she's like, I sent my daughter to the corner store for milk and bread. And then when they go to the corner the store, Clark remembers a guy coming in behind her and saying that they knew each other. They were chit.

Chatting, laughing it up, and that they left together. So that gives the cops something to go on, and uh, basically, the super puts it together with the description of the victim, like, oh, this looks like a guy in my building, Malik Harris, who has recently shaved his head and his beard, and that matches the description. So they go up to Malik's apartment and they're like, are you Malie Harris And he's like yeah, but professionally, I'm known as King, So red Flag, you're in the Kingdom.

For those Sex in the City heads here, Malik Harris is in one of the most cringe worthy episodes of Sex and the City.

But when Samantha dates.

A black man, this is the black man that she dates. Yes, he is like the music producer, yeah, and like he has a sister, a Dina, who owns like a cool Southern fusion restaurant, and she doesn't want them dating, but they're like, Samantha just does so many embarrassing things.

But he is a hot guy and he fucks Samantha.

So yeah, he is very hot. So not man in this episode, not hot in this episode.

No. So when they walk into his apartment, he has a girlfriend who's kind of like, who is that?

He's like, no one that concerns you.

Like, he's extremely rude to his girlfriend and like screams at her in front of the cops multiple times. So I think that's like red flags. We just talked about having a submissive wife or girlfriend.

Well yeah, he says, you may now dialogue, Like right, I can't even imagine someone saying that in my vicinity.

And the cops definitely pick up on that and they fuck with it.

There would be an SVU episode based on my crime if someone said that.

He told me I could dialogue, so I murdered him. He admits that he saw the girl. Yeah, she's in my lives, in my building. I saw her at the corner store. I walked her home. She shouldn't be out that late, and then his to give an alibi, he says to his girlfriend, now you may dialogue, and she alibies him now. When they're walking out of the building too, Munch and Finn are like, you may now dialogue.

They're like talking shit about him as they walk out of the building. So I'm glad.

The cops are also like, this is not an okay way to talk to a woman. And then Rodney, the brother of Aisha, rolls up with a big group of people, being like, these cops don't care what happens to like people in this neighborhood. I see diffuses a situation perfectly. He's like, I don't care. I'm standing right here trying

He's like, I'm out here trying to help you.

Well, not only does he stick them onto the media, he also says, but does anyone have information to help?

And everyone's silent.

Yeah, And that's also very deliberate improving, Like you know, I mean, the cops make it hard for a community to want to work with them, but like, yeah, you also have.

To like snitch, you know what I mean.

So now Malik is their number one suspect and they're looking into him, and it turns out he was in a car accident, so he was off the grid for three years recovering, like basically learning how to walk again. His legs were shattered apparently, and then he was living

So who knows, maybe that woman that.

He asked to dialogue is paying for everything for him, because it doesn't sound like he's this rap mogul that he claims to be. Finn tells Cabot what's up, and he's like, search his house for drugs and then anything else they find there is just gravy. So then they obviously do that, and then they head to the studio where this girl is like laying down some rap track and he's sort of like the guy behind the glass,

And the woman is terrible at rapping. She is like a real housewife trying to put out an album, you know what I mean.

Like they did that on purpose. They were like, who wants to come in and just lay down really flat bars that are not good? Like that's what happened.

So at the Medical Examiner's office tomorrow, Tuoney is there Melinda Warner, and we learned something very interesting. She goes to get a DNA swab from Malik, and he says, oh, that's against my religion. I'm a Jehovah's witness, and Melinda says him, even mentioning that means I can't take the sample at all, Like there's no coercion, there's no way to get the sample.

And how did Jehovah's witnesses know about DNA testing?

What is how is this a rule? I have no idea.

I had never heard of that before, but I'm sure this show is so well researched that it's true. And it seems like something this guy would do, Like we're getting the idea of how like how manipulative and sort of like study this guy is at like hot, yeah, and diabolical at like hiding his tracks so like he knew knows immediately, Oh, you're trying to take my da. I mean she's up to his mouth with the cotton swab when he says, oh, by the way, I'm a Jehovah's witness, like he never said that before.

You know, Jehovah's witness don't give blood or receive blood.

They don't believe in transfusions.

Okay, so probably like taking material out of someone's body for testing is like illegal.

So in their illegal in their church.

So he also flirts with Melinda and is like, yo, she is choice, and I'm like, you know what, you are, a disgusting killer, but you're right tomorrow.

Tuney is hot, and I don't know.

Why she doesn't get hit on more often by these creeps so or why there's never like a romance with her in one of the cops. She's hot. Outside the detectives, Munch and Finn are putting Malik into a car, into the cop car and they sort of Finn pushes his head so that his glasses fall off, his sunglasses and he's like, those frames are from Italy. It's like, okay, your girlfriend bought them for you. And Finn goes to pick them up and crushes them clearly on purpose, and

So this guy is a serial rapist and murderer.

So now they're in a sort of chambers meeting with a judge trying to argue about getting the DNA in and Cabot argues that it's the same as coffee cups or soda cans, the way that the cops always like use deception to get fingerprints or DNA from people, they did in this case. And the lawyer argues that Finn assaulted Malik and stole his glasses. It was not a discarded object the way that a coffee cup or a soda cam would be.

So the judge says, yeah, you guys forced him. He didn't give up.

His glasses is out, and then they say they have to drop the charges because the DNA is like the smoking guns, so this is pretty bad news. In court, Cabot asks for remand, and the judge she's one of these, she's the classic redhead judge.

We've talked about her before. The judge is like, I know what you're doing, Cabot. You screwed up your murder case. Now you want me to do your dirty work for you. Not going to happen. So she sets the bail at two thousand dollars. Not a problem for this guy.

So he's smirking, and then suddenly Rodney jumps out of the galley, attacks Malik and and Malik bites Rodney on the arm. Now they have his DNA for real, and they arrest him again, and Cabot is like, this is all a little bit too perfect, and she thinks Finn set the whole thing up, and he's like, do you really want me to tell you if I did, and she's like, not really. So it's kind of a fun little moment with those two. She thinks he definitely gave Rodney the idea for the attack and the bite, which

We couldn't have done that.

So Saylor enters with Malik's DNA match to five homicides and four rapes in Detroit during the time he.

Was living there with his sister. So this guy's like, he knows he's caught, and he goes, I want a deal, and Finn goes, how about right before we execute you.

I bring you your last meal. He's fucked and that's it, and that's dick wolf baby. So they end up like it's kind of an interesting episode because you start with this guy who is not a good guy, who is hooking up with underage girls and possibly infecting them with HIV just because he sort of wants to get his rocks off without protection and you know, doesn't care about other people's well being. But then it leads us to this way more I don't know, more heinous, but additionally.

Definitely more heinous. Yeah, I think burning is ups the sure.

Sure, but I mean you murder somebody quickly, or you give them a disease that was going to kill them over time.

I mean they're both pretty many.

Well, I mean that's the whole There's like this cases of very complex and we'll obviously get it into it, but HIV is not.

A death sentence right now.

Yes, yes, I think maybe in two thousand and one, the idea was more it was coming, yes in the nineties.

But was the idea because of media and biases or based on science, because even science it was not you know.

So we'll obviously get into the complexities of this case.

So stick around, babies, Okay, So welcome back.

There's actually two cases.

The first one in the more media one is the case of Nashan Williams, and that is a nineteen ninety seven case of a nineteen year old black man who was accused of having sex with younger women while he was HIV positive.

You can substitute sex for rape. Do not come for me.

But the smaller moment that we will talk about is the courtroom assault. So this like when Rodney jumps and there's a bite and all of that, and that DNA being used to convict someone that comes from the headlines baby, So I'll just touch on that before we get into the Nashan Williams case. And basically this happened in Springfield, Massachusetts, but there's so many Springfields and it was really I like all the all the newspapers were like the Springfield Daily.

I'm like, what state are you fucking? Yeah? There was you know, It's crazy.

When I was a kid and I watched The Simpsons, I was always like, where is Springfield? Like I was always obsessed with knowing where Springfield was. And then I for some reason, because Springfield is the capital of Illinois, right it is, Yes, I was.

Like, it's Illinois.

The Simpsons is absolutely in Illinois. For some reason, that was just like in my head. But I've been to Springfield, Massachusetts many many times. It's twenty minutes from where I went to college.

I'm assuming you know this.

They picked Springfield on purpose, so no one knows where any it is.

Okay, yes, yes. In my eleven year old brain, I was like, it's Illinois because that's where the.

Cap But Matt Groni is from like the Portland area, And if you do go to Portland, a lot of the streets are like Flanders and like so the streets in Portland are a lot of characters of the Simpsons.

So that's really fun. Okay, cool, very.

Fun to walk around Portland and see that for me Crabapple Drive.

Yeah.

So, Alfred Gaynor is a serial killer and rapist who is active between nineteen ninety five and nineteen ninety eight, and he is serving life in prison, and he is especially heinous and so fucking awful like so many victims, he seems brutal. I wonder if there's like a fuller episode based on him. I don't know much about him, but I was like, fuck, this guy's bad. So on April thirtieth and nineteen ninety eight, during one of the court hearings, Gaynor was attacked by the son of one

It's like when we.

Talked about like Craig Pye or like it's like I just don't get when like they've got the evidence, man like you did it, Like I just don't. Never admitting guilt is like, so you're locked in a prison in your own mind.

I feel like, yeah, So back to the Nashaun Williams case. So this is very in line with like Leon where he was like this wild, bad kid from the jump. But it's because he had a very tough life and it sucks that and that's why the police saying and that's why everyone's so mad at how the world works, because instead of just like helping people from a young age thrive, they put them in jail and make money. So it is really fucked up. But his mother was

These streets are very familiar to me.

And they mentioned the Albany Projects and that was across the street from my home. So I felt like very a part not a part of the story, but I you know, I like when I covered the case from Skochie, there's just something when you can relate to what's happening. So Colin Lawrence is the owner of the store on No Strin Avenue and he used to give like naseean dollars on the weekends so he can go have fun. And he used to talk about the Knicks like they

He's fine.

He lived, and he ended up not pressing charges at all, and he's just lucky to be alive. And he had a quote where he was like, yeah, have someone you know comes into rob you know they're willing to kill you because they're fucking desperate, like they have nothing to lose if you know who the person is. And so he had a robbery conviction at fifteen. He also had a murder charge at seventeen, but he only sort of served a year of it because he was acquitted of the killing.

So wow, that's kind of wild.

In all, he amassed eight arrests and at least three convictions through his life, and detectives from the seventy seventh Precinct said he was very hated and that people were eager to give him up and offer incriminating information about him. He had no friends, Like, not only did people hate him, but then they were also scared of him, so they were committed to wanting to get him off the streets, so they were willing to work with the police because they're like, we hate this guy, like.

Please block him up.

The lawyer that works with him on the nineteen ninety four murder charge that he was found not like where he was found out guilty said, and all the time I represented him, no family called me, nobody came to the trial on his behalf, like nobody, nothing cared. And when they reversed the thing, he got up, never said thank you, left, talked to nobody, Like he was really

Yeah, that's a really good point, Lisa.

If you're a guy and you're like, I can't tell how old these girls are, if they're excited that you're taking them for like a meal or like to buy them a tank top, like they're teenagers.

Yeah, yeah, they're too young.

And then neighbors and acquaintances said that like sex was one of the most constant things in his life and that he was always having sex in public places or there was miserable circumstances involved, or he was bartering sex for drugs constantly. He was a drug dealer, He sold drugs and was a drug user. And so as we know with like HIV and IT, you know, like needles and sharing of those things also contribute to passing the virus.

So like in the start, there was like twenty eight.

People that he had had sex with, and then county health officials said it was a total of one hundred and ten people identified that I'd had sex with him, and then he also gave nineteen more names, and like that's the thing. He was very giving and was like giving constant information and names of people and like, yeah, one of the girls was thirteen years old who contracted HIV from having statutory rape with him.

I mean, the language of this is very, very hard.

And then he admitted that he had sex with two hundred to three hundred women. Two of William's children in Chautauqua County were born with HIV no and then many of the women that were infected continued to have unprotected sex even after their diagnosis with other people that also spread the disease.

So it was like he was the center of just.

Like all the spikes in Chautaquoa County and in New York City of HIV. And then the media like really went wild and it was really sensationalized and they called him an AIDS monster and AIDS predator, and it was just like, you know, a lot of the press were super ignorant about HIV and racheal prejudice and then this is where so it also raises questions of anonymity.

For those we talked about this who test positive. Like it used to.

Be believed if names weren't kept secret, it would deter people from getting tested because of the stigma they would get so like it was hush hush, But that doesn't help track and stop the spread. So you know, when we're talking about Stabler like spreading all the gossip around, it's like they also need to know the names of people so they can help track it and help stop the spread, so that anonymity helps people get tested.

It's just like very it's it's just very complicated.

And if there wasn't the stigma of HIV and AIDS, this could have been treated in such a better way. But like if someone found out you were gay or something that could affect your life negatively, and so it's just like really complicated. And because of William's case, New York passed the law that mandated doctors and laboratories to report the names of individuals who test positive for HIV. Doctors are mandated to report the names of any known

The guy.

Yeah, and I was on a set where we all had to wear little contract tracer things on us, and so if anyone were to test positive, they can track who we spent the most amount of time talking about.

Oh interesting. Yeah.

He did plead guilty to charges of statutory rape and two counts of reckless endangerment for knowingly infecting two girls with the virus.

He pled guilty in.

Nineteen ninety nine and was sentenced to two prison terms of two to six years for statutory rape and another term of two to six years for reckless endangerment to start after the first terms were served that should have lasted for twelve years or until April thirteenth to twenty ten.

Him get out of being incarcerated.

So I'm sure they're biased in some way, and we can all make our own decisions on how we feel about this. So in two thousand and seven, New York passed a law that allows the state to prevent the release of a very small percentage of convicted sex offenders who have had a mental abnormality and are unable to control themselves in the future. And this was done by the Elliot Spitzer administration.

This is sort of like in the episode with this hygiene law that the mental hygiene law.

One hundred percent one hundred percent, And so the Attorney General at the time was Cuomo uh and so Cuomo insists that Nashan's HIV status has nothing to do with his confinement, but HIV was referred to more than one thousand times during his civil commitment trial, and his HIV status was a central part of the case. So April ninth, twenty ten, four days before the end of Nashon's sentence, that New York Attorney General Cuomo filed an application to

This is basically the first time in New York.

That someone has been committed like this based largely on HIV status. Wow, and it could be in the country too. They can't really define it. But it's like that's what I'm talking about with the science, where it's like you are making someone be in prison for the rest of their life because they have HIV, even though if he's on his meds and his viral load is life, so he can he will not pass it.

And also he has.

Committed his sentence, but maybe he is someone that can't be trusted.

It it's just like really difficult.

So, according to court documents, Williams failed to complete sex defender treatment and had a poor prison disciplinary record before two thousand and six. He has an antisocial personality disorder, psychopathy, and sexual preoccupation. He's now forty four years old, and so there's just a lot of fucked up shit. So they say that sometimes they don't give him his medications and like don't let him see infectious disease doctors and

Will he complete stuff? Yeah, that's what I'm wondering.

I'm like to play Devil's advocate, Like this guy had no just he had no regard for people. In all these years, he could have been wearing condoms and now I know there's prep and there's all these ways you can keep your viral load and basically have it a non transmittable But would you trust this man to do that since he doesn't seem to have I think that's where the anti social personality thing comes in, is like you don't care about other people in society, is what they think they're saying about.

Yeah, so if that's the case, but then his initial sentence should have been more. But he was nineteen when this happened and he's now forty four years old.

Yeah, I'd be interested to hear what he has to say, Like does he other interviews with him or anything or not.

Really not anything new or current. Yeah, Like I'd like want to talk to him now and be like, what are your feelings like would you you know, like would you.

Yeah, like you know, it's really tough because when I hear this, I think it's fucked up and he should be released. To me, it's like when we read about like Julianni and Cuomo and all these people and what they did in their past, so it was all for their political careers, Like in no way in hell do I think Cuomo cared about anybody but himself and making precedent for himself for his political career. So to me,

Yeah, so he is being held because of his HIV.

So I think he's being held based on his likelihood of reoffending, which is a slippery slope. And it's like, yeah, you can't charge people for something that they like haven't done yet. He's served his time for what he's done, and now you're basically punishing for something that he hasn't done yet, but you think he will.

Do because I don't know, like there's like halfway house situations or like impatient or there's like ways too that he has to go to a parole person or he can have a stabler follow his ass Like I don't I.

Don't really know, but.

It feels fucked up that Cuomo can just enact this and keep someone confined for the rest of their life.

And it's just him. There's like not even any cases like this. There's very very easy.

I think maybe there's been more since or something, but like it was the first of its kind to be like someone to be held indefinitely, because what we're saying is that we trust our leaders and we don't, right, So it's like if we're giving the power to that, like that's the whole thing it's power to the people. Like that's the whole point of this country. It's like a jury of your peers and a jury of his peers gave him the maximum sentence that he could have

But to just have this dude, it's like fucked up. I think he's popped up.

Well, it's definitely complicated, but you did find a resource that we're going to recommend later.

During Sister peg.

That looks really interesting if people want to sort of get more in depth than that.

Yeah, So that's that.

Yeah, And now let's talk to our guest, who I think you guys are going to be really excited about.

Okay, our Camro.

Returning guest, our first ever returning guest. We by popular demand have brought him back. He is a amazing show runner around executive. He show ran on Order SVU from seasons two to twelve and he's an icon. We are so excited to ask him a bunch of questions that you guys sent us.

So check out our interview with mister Neil Bayer.

Since we've last spoken to you, Christopher Maloney's ass has become a cultural touch point.

What was that GQ or.

Something interview mag that was like back in the days of OZ.

That's like twenty Let's see, when I started on SVU in two thousand, Chris was on OZ and he was going back and forth like he'd shoot OZ on the weekend. Wow, that's twenty one years ago. So has his ass changed in twenty one years?

I don't know.

In rooftop there's kind of a classic SVU moment we would say where you know iced Tea purposely knocks down the purpse glasses and then gets to use them for DNA. And we were wondering what your favorite kind of SVU classic moments like that are.

Oh, you mean like the straw trying to get people to drink soda.

Yeah, I mean it's like, like I love that. Every time there's like a can, I'm like, don't drink.

But pizza, you know, you know, giving them like salty, Hey, here's some chips. I think we did that, and it's like get them all like you know, parch so that they'll want something to drink, and then going through trash and we've done we did that, you know, so there's always.

Like how do you get get somebody to spit at you?

I mean it's like I think we did that in Rooftop.

You know, they set it up so that ice well iced Tea sort of sets up the brother of this victim to attack the.

Guy so that he bites him. And then when we were doing our research, there is kind of a famous case of this happening. Did you guys know about that? Was that like incorporated?

Yes?

Yes, because we're always we had and I presume they still do that.

I don't know.

We had a full time researcher, so literally just every day getting.

New stuff, Like do you remember we did an episode about.

A guy two different versions of this and two different episodes. A guy was a suspect and he gave his DNA his blood and it didn't match.

Oh yeah, we discussed this episode with.

The two with two that's what.

Yeah.

Yeah, so I read that story and I said, well, we've got to do that.

So that tube guy was really like bizarre. And then the.

Other version of it, in a sense was I remember talking to Michelle Fizikas and Tara Butters about this and saying, you, guys, this would be a really interesting episode where a guy gives his blood and he's not a match, but they know he's the perp.

And the answer was he'd had.

A bone mirror transplant, right because he had had cant he had had leukemia, and so his blood is not going to match his his uh saliva or other other things, so that's how you know. And then of course the famous one with the you know based on doctor Money.

Where you don't know which they're.

Identical twins at birth even though one had a botched circumcision and so you don't get their their DNA matches.

We just did that one because the fans that was our most requested identity was like our most requested episode.

So funny story is I have these friends who are twins in La the Inton twins, Edmund and Gary.

And they looked really familiar to me when I met them, like at a.

Dinner and I said, you guys look really familiar and I'm like really, and I said, you know, you try to figure out, like where did I meet you? It turned out they auditioned for the twins.

So yeah, I was wondering in terms of like the victims injuries, is that like makeup and here is that direction?

Is that like come off your notes? And how do you decide what they're going to look like?

So it's a collaborative effort.

We have what's called a constant meeting that we do right after the script comes out, and the director has seven or eight days of prep. So they prep for seven days and then they shoot for eight nine days, sometimes a little bit more.

Depending on what the episode is.

And sometimes we do what's called crossboarding, or we'll shoot two episodes.

At once or tandeming.

So we did that's how we did so many episodes some years is that we'd have Ice and Belzer doing a scene. We'd have mrsch and Chris doing a scene, then Rushtan Bellser doing a scene and Chris and Ice doing a scene, and we'd be shooting two episodes at once, so we have more more shows that season. I don't think they do that anymore. It was really hard to do, but it was fun.

And so.

In terms of makeup, all of these things are discussed in the concept meeting, so everybody is there, every department head, So the director, the directing producer so during my time the eleven years was Ted Kotcheff, the line producer, David de Clerk, Gail Barringer, so they're in charge of the budget, the locations person Trisha Aldessik, and then hair, makeup and wardrobe.

And so when we have certain elements like a look.

Of someone that would need like prosthetics or things like that, we would have sidebar conversations after we had read through the script with all of the department heads to really talk.

You know, tomorrow Tindi comes back, and you.

Know, they all they all come back, so unless they're killed like Mike Doyle's character, you know, when Stucky, when Stucky killed him, you know, we had to have a sidebar for that, like you know, the blood and all that.

Sort of stuff when we stabbed him. Are we killed Sister Peg? I love si.

Oh when you killed Sister Peg?

Well, wildly, that's one of our friend's girlfriends. He texted me, going, my girlfriend's the one that like Stabler shot. I'm like, are you kidding me? You're dating Royalty. Speaking of bringing people back, they recently just did like Born Psychopath and they did ten years later. Is there any episodes during your time that you would love to see a continuation on?

There are so many, Like in terms of when you do a show that's not really in the sort of full consciousness of the audience like we did the first show about giving a.

Trans teenager hormone blockers, and so that was with Aisha Hines.

That episode, I remember she played the principal.

I'd like to see what happened like with that kid, because that was not even talked about.

Because I'm a pediatrician, I knew about it.

But you know, a good example would be from a different show where when I did ER, I worked with Gloria Rubin, who was on SPU of course as an attorney US attorney.

She did like the story.

She did a story, a really good one about sex trafficking kids in the US. So I asked John Wells on ER if you would bring Gloria back in year fourteen, the year before ER ended. She left in year five I think of R and he did, and he showed her as a physician, a physician assistant who was doing well. She had HI she was HIV positive, but she was taking medication.

She was living a full, in active life.

And people love seeing that, they love seeing that sort of positive side. So it'd be interesting, you know, to bring you know, if they could bring Belzer back or something too. You know, we brought we brought on his wife from homicide Carol Kine psychon in an episode because you know, I just think it's fun.

So that's kind of.

An illustration of that where we brought someone back in a sense from another show. Because Belser's character much had this continuat line.

Through many different shows, and so we were able to do that we brought back.

For instance, we brought Marlee Matlin back because Belzer loved.

Working with her.

She was nominated for an Emmy for her, so we brought her back, and so we would do that.

Marcia day Harden, we love, so we brought her back.

Yeah, we but for the Marley Maitland. So there are characters you could tell really at a bond. So that was written or did you see their vibe on set or it was just both.

Saw on the vibe. No plan to have Marlee twice. But Richard loved working with her and he was like, wow, I just really you just said it. I vibed with her that we just said we got to bring it back and we'll make it really sad.

We have a bunch of these questions from our audience and we can just ask them to you and if you want to just pass, just say pass or not doesn't make.

Sense or whatever.

So so one person asked, what is the biggest medical inconsistency in SVU.

That the DNA comes back so quickly.

Yeah, that's an easy one.

I mean because with Mike Doyle's character and Tamartine's character, they were.

Like so quick.

But but I don't think that we made stuff up.

We were using the best technology that existed at the time.

I think I mentioned this before that.

SBU is really an amazing historical assessment of what's available.

And the show kept using new techniques.

So when I started, they had blackboards and then went to dry erase boards, and then we went to cell phones, and we went to GPS, and then we were taking iPads out to the scene, and so that kept refreshing the show in a way because we had new technology that moved us forward.

But technology is a lot quicker. You get responses more quickly.

You see this in Rooftop Too, where Stabler finds this remembers this line from an old case and he's like, this is from before we were really doing DNA testing. So and now it's like a few years later and it's like, Okay, let's put the DNA in the system. So interesting. Yeah, you're right, it is a little bit not like a time capsule, but yeah, like a historical document.

Yeah, a document. Yeah.

So did you ever have to change an episode last minute?

Before I came on the show, there was an episode that I'll only remember. It was called Taken and Rishka has like a pacifier around her neck and a lot of glitter.

Oh yeah, she's like in a raver over that.

So so the show turned out to be like twelve minutes too short. It was just like and it was kind of in this infraim period where there was no showrunner, and then I came on and we had to figure out how we couldn't just throw it out and so and you know, Dick has Dick Wolf has sort of very specific ideas of how he wants things to go, like no flashbacks, no, you know, speaking directly into the camera, all of these rules. I said, well, you know, I

It weren't it was it was Dick Mattens.

No, he was like, oh that's great. It's like it's like, whatever it takes, do it.

So what was the most controversial ending to an episode?

The one with Shannon Sossiman and Billy Campbell.

Oh, actually that was.

Insane and it was like we find the defendant and then people are did something happened in my television?

I know, you're like, my DV hour is broken?

And is no, you got to figure out what you think this is why?

You know this is obviously before me too, But it was you know, we wrote it so.

That both you you would believe or disbelieve.

Both of them, right, So that really pissed off a lot of people.

I think just because you have us years and years with everything getting wrapped up in a bow on these episodes, even if it's a bad bow, Like even if you're like Oh my god, that's horrific or that's not what I wanted to happen, Like you always know what happens, and that's the first episode where you're like, I have to think for myself.

No.

Yeah, and it's like so maybe I'll maybe they'll come back and Billy Camp will be uh, you know, arrested again for doing the same thing, and you'll figure it out. You could actually kind of go back to that story and see what happened and whether or not he had ether there, you know, people coming out and saying that he had done something similar.

You could do that right, and then you could give you could tie a boat on it.

Are there any episodes you look back on and you're like, with now societal norms like changing that you kind of cringe out or you wish you could change or adapt.

That's an audience question.

Yeah, not really, I mean because some of its time. And so you know when we talked about should we have made Stabler as aggressive though that was his character, So that came up a lot during you know, the whole conversation about police and so that was something that you know, they're thinking about a lot on Blown Over Organized Chrome Now and they're actually addressing that with his character.

That I ran the show.

So I think that that was a really that perspective was really welcome and a good thing.

And you know, we had.

African American writer, female writer Julia McCrary who wrote the most intense episodes. She wrote the ludicrous episodes and all of the really intense shows. You know, the writers had kind of specialties of intensity or more humor, or.

More sort of.

Family kind of things, So I would assign things different stories based on that the writer's personalities often as well.

Have you ever been sued or had any legal action threatened from like a ripped from the headline situation where someone came after you, guys, or was mad not you, Neil Bear?

Obviously No.

We had one incident that I'll say is that it had to do with the show.

The view.

Okay, oh okay, I'm like writing this down to do you know an episode this is.

Okay, We'll leave it at that. A lot of our questions have to do with everybody being obsessed with Obviously, Benson and Stable are getting back together. The tension between them is back in the news kind of because of organized crime, and you know now his wife has passed and everything.

In your twelve years on the show or eleven years on the show, were you ever tempted to make an Olivia sorry Benson Stabler romance happen.

No, but I gave everybody what they wanted when we put Mush in.

Her bron pennies and Belonging in his underwear, very famous hide the monkey in the ball wildlife, So that was like what everybody wanted wildlife. Yes, everybody wanted to happen, So that was purposely written that way.

There's another question from a listener that I actually never thought of it that I wonder if you have any info on, Like somebody asked, what precautions are taken when child actors have to do like these intense scenes about abuse.

It's a really good question.

One of another favorite episode is the one I think this has been listed like in the top ten SPUs and Judy wrote this one. This is about the girl thinks with Aiden Quinn, phenomenal actor place.

Oh yes, phenomenal, the girl that has the perfect pitch.

She has Williams syndrome.

Yeah, yeah, so that's you know, she has a genetic syndrome where she kind of repeats what she hears.

And it was really interesting.

I think there's a lot of conversation with the director and the parents because the parents are on the set and protecting I know. I remember we were doing a scene on the Er with Michael Michelle who did that.

Another is the.

Judmcreating another the one where Blair Underwood what burns her? Eric Lasaul directed that episode. Michael was on Er and I remember a little girl asking her some question about something about because she has she somebody's talking about something sexual.

And I remember Michael Michelle.

Saying, honey, you're gonna have to ask your mother about that.

But that but for a scene like an.

SBU, we've had, you know, we've had kids parents say they won't let their kids do scenes, which is their right to do, and we want to make sure that the kids feel comfortable and all of that. So there's a lot of conversation with the director particularly and the parents because parents are on the set and you know, the kid, she's work only a small amount. And also we have to be very careful of what we do

We don't want to do that.

Well, a new You told us last time we spoke to you that you know, a lot of the episodes came from you know, you reading sort of like a medical journal or an article about some.

New thing and you know, finding out about cases.

So has there been anything that you've read about since you left the show that you're like, this would make a great best for you.

Yeah.

And I actually told Peter Jenkeski and I don't know you'll know if they did this or not, but I heard about a rapist who was suing to have custody drunk custody of the child.

Yes, they did do that.

Yeah.

And I called Peter and.

I said, you got to do this because I can't believe we didn't do this. But and now they've passed laws that you can't Yeah. Wow, Like whoa, It was like, that's so I certainly that was the one story that really got me like, oh my gosh, that would have made an incredible SVU. But I but I went to Peter and I called him, said, hey, you guys should do this, and here's the story.

Iran, especially with like Benson's character, having her background that she has, Like, you know, if your father had wanted to sue for custody of you, would that appear exactly?

So you could just see what, yeah, where that would go?

Right?

That would like, you know, an intense episode.

I forgot. Do you still watch the show ever? Do you catch it here and there or not?

Really? No, I haven't. I decided when I left ER.

I did ER the first seven years and I thought, you know, it was so wonderful. I got to work with amazing actors and the same with SVU for eleven and so I just wish from the best, but I just.

Move on to another show.

So then I did a gift A man with Patrick Wilson, but that was only on for years.

There's nothing else to watch it.

And I did Under the Dome and that was three years and done, so there's nothing else to watch. And then I did Designate It, but I did the end of Designated. So I did watch the first two years of Designated because I'd never been in a position where I was taking well, I take that back, Sbu. I did watch the first season. I had watched the pilot and a few of them because Murska had been on R and were very close.

And so I wanted to see what was going on.

But I didn't have any idea I was going to be on SVU, so I didn't watch all of season one.

But seasons thirteen through twenty two are a mystery to you.

Well, I wonder if we could even ask it, So, without seeing the show for this long, how would you like? Can you even answer? How would you end it? How do you see SVU atver ending?

Well, I mean that's the obvious, though you know there.

Has to be some twist I would imagine to get there, but it'd be interesting to bring as many people back as possible as well.

So we were wondering has anyone ever been. Have you ever written a character off the show other than for contractual reasons, like you ever just been like we got to write this person off.

Yeah, not for contractual reasons, but just for storytelling. So the answer would be I called the wonderful actor Christine Lottie.

And I said, we have I love you, I have another episode for you. It's that great.

And she was so good on the show, and I said, and we're going to do something that I think you've.

Never done before as an actor. And she's like, uh.

Oh, what is that, Christine? And she goes, You're going to kill me? And I said yes, and she's like, you know, and I said, I was kind of looking and thinking about all of your work and I don't recall you ever being killed. You've done tough stuff, you know, and beautiful, beautiful film she did called Housekeeping, which if you haven't seen, is amazing based on the.

Novel. She's just incredibly good in it. And so I said, yeah, we're going to.

Kill you because we have Debra messing on and this whole kind of thing going on, and we just want this like the emotionality of it, and you've had this kind of relationship with Benson that stirred up issues about her mother. So she has this intense emotionality with your character.

So that was a character. And also Mike Doyle, it was like, yeah.

You know, and then the New York Times did an article about how many times he'd been killed off on shows.

And then I just saw him in this movie called The Invitation where he gets murdered pretty badly as well. I love that movie.

You know that happens to Mike, but he's wonderful actor. So and Stucky.

He's the most hated character.

I mean, William Lewis obviously so scary, but people hate Stucky.

Yeah, he really irks people. Yeah.

Well you mentioned Deborah Messing, which you know like her and marishkar are really good friends. Are there any cases where one of the main actors is like, can we just have my friend on?

Like I want Deborah on?

Yeah? Cool, Maria Hello? Oh whoa Yeah, fantastic episode. Oh my god, with the guy.

With Calvin, that whole that was how we first started the Benson motherhood journey.

And the guy who played her horrible father was from Full Metal Jacket.

He was the sergeant in Full Metal Jacket.

So Maria and mursh are very very close friends, and so we said, we got to get Maria on and do something really intense, and so we did.

Is right, what are you working on now before we all go?

I have a show that's going to be on, but I can't say what it is.

Okay, okay, it's going to be on.

I can't even say it's going to be on. I have an unscripted show that's going to be on in the fall. Really, so well, would you talk about it and it's on? It's going to be fun.

I can't come back on when you're doing. You do that and tell us about it, and I would love it. Wow.

Neil Bear, the legend, the man the meth, the legend that was so great, the Barriers of great Scoop. Yes, always, he always has great info for us.

Just to bragge all of you, we did get a few off the record statements from him so.

That we weren't allowed to put on the pod. Unfortunately we can't share, but know that he spilled some tea maybe. And if you guys are interested, we have one little extra tidbit on our Instagram. If you're not following us on Instagram, get over to That's messed Up pod on Instagram so that you can hear one last piece of scoop from Neil. But let's jump into our post mortem for Rooftop. What did we learn? What a dark episode?

I mean, if a man tells you that you can dialogue, now it's time to walk out the door.

It's time to leave.

I was gonna say, if you really need evidence in a case, just hop on over and bite somebody.

Yeah, you know, get their skin in your teeth. Yeah.

From now on, now we know how to get DNA, Like, start a fight, get their DNA all over you, and go straight to a medical examiner.

And I guess.

Also, another thing we've learned is that if you don't want your DNA taken, you can just say you're a Jehovah's witness.

Yep, that's you know, a lot of DNA evidence, I mean lessons. Yeah, why do I seem like I feel like I'm drunk but I'm not. I don't know. Also, racism sucks. Police suck, Yeah, suck.

The government sucks. So that's something I'll say.

It does feel like after watching this episode, though, it does, it does feel like we've come like a long way in terms of like stigma against AIDS. You know, like I feel like now more people accept that AIDS is not a death sentence. It's not like the kind of thing where you like shun people that have it. I mean, I have friends with HIV. Like, it's just not a thing that you need to you know, shy away from talking about or you know, no, it's.

Really a john. I mean, most of this country is an embarrassment stain. But the way this country and Reagan and everyone handled.

AIDS is so fucked up.

Yeah, and it's really not even talked about how much of a fuck up that was, and how many people we like friendly but Woods talks about this and more.

People that are smarter and no more.

But it's like we truly lost the generation of people mm hmm. And that's what's happening now where people are like, ah, fuck, there's not enough job people want to sit on unemployment. Why is there a shortage of employees? And it's like I didn't think about this, but the Internet told me six hundred thousand people died gonna create some shortages, you know what I mean.

Like people are so selfish.

And self centered that it's like we haven't even thought about, like the reason there might be a shortage of certain jobs is because people fucking died. Yeah, you know, we just ignore it and like the whole aids like so so many talented, incredible people died and it's fucked up. It's like the Holocaust. It's like we lost generations of people.

Yeah, and I just speaking of the Emmys, what we were talking about earlier, very nominated the show pose like they really jump dive into that and you really get a sense of like how devastating it was in the eighties and nineties.

Like yeah, and then everyone is like shading you. Doctors probably don't want to work on you, No whe understands it. You're treated like shit. It's it's just like devastating. You're like dying of a disease and no one cares, and then they blame you for it and think you're like a demon because you have it.

Yeah. I don't know if that's what I got from this episode.

No, I was just noticing that, like, you know, that episode just seems like a little bit like dated almost in the way that they like talk about HIV and like, you know, what we learned from this Nashan Williams case and everything. It's just it's like, it feels like we've made some strides. I don't think it's totally non discriminated against, but you know, I think we've made some strides.

Well.

That leads us kind of perfectly right into what would Sister Peg do?

This week?

This is our weekly segment where we highlight an institution or an organization that you can get more information from or donate to. And today we are highlighting the Black AIDS Institute. It's Blackaids dot Org and the Black Aids Institute.

They also go by Bai So.

Bai's mission is to stop the AIDS epidemic in black communities by engaging and mobilizing Black institutions and individuals to confront HIV. SO and another what was Sister Peg resource? We have two for for you this week. There is a book if you're interested in learning more about the

And join us.

Next week, we will be covering the episode Peak That's p i q u e Wild Season two, Episode twenty Hulu, Peacock, the Library, all that Jazz. So enjoy watching, do your homework and we'll see you next week.

Bye bye. That's Messed Up is an Exactly Right production.

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