Retro

Of the law and order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories. Done done, Yay.

Welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.

My name is Lisa, my name is Kara, and we're your hosts.

We talk about an SVU episode that we choose, We talk about the true crime it's based on, and we interview a guest from the episode usually or sometimes and sometimes we don't. And today we've got a great episode for you. But before we get started, we like to chot, We like to catch up. We like to talk about what's going on in the world.

You know it is shocking, Oh yeah them, because you said we choose these episodes. Like the amount of people I've been meeting out and about in the world who are watching from season one, Like who are going in and doing it in order is wild. Yeah, I'm at like five people in the last few months. They're like, I'm watching it from the start. I'm on seventeen or season and I'm like, what the fuck, Like, I don't even.

Know if I went to that. I don't.

I mean, I definitely haven't. I watched it from when it started, but I would miss episodes all the time and then just like now catch them on USA a million times. You know, like I've never straight gone through.

But that's a new way of life with all these streamers. It just so oh. It also just seems actually have someone that I know personally, I should see how their journey is going.

Actually, I know.

While my other question is like I pay for Hulu, right, and I pay without the ads because I do this the recaps and I can't have ads or whatever. But Disney Plus and Hulu are now part of each other. So can I now watch SVU on Disney?

Is that an me? Yeah?

Because my Hulu comes with Max, I feel and I have to some shows do show up when I google them in Hulu or maybe.

I'm going to go into my Disney app right now and see if I can literally wait, but I didn't know because I am been craving some Simpsons and I haven't watched in a while, and I feel like I got to get some Disney Plus in my life.

Wait did I tell you this? I don't know if I feel like I've already mentioned on the pod. But this meme came up in my thing again and you have that Disney princess joke, but it's all the Disney princesses, and it's like, who do you think.

Would win in like a murder? Like who's winning in a fight?

And they're like, Mulan has a body count or like a murder count of two thousand. She defeated the Huns, like no white as a chance?

Does Mulan ever even wear a dress?

Like does she ever even like you know, like Mulan is in fighting garb ready to go.

Yeah, but there's some dresses in the beginning. That's what she escapes it. Remember they're trying to marry her off with the match with the matchmaker.

Yeah, okay, just started Mulan the other day.

Yes, I want your kids watching Mulan. Yeah yeah, yeah, I really want them. You have them.

I got well, now that I know that Rosie is so into New York, look what I got her?

What these sticks? Oh my god, are they so cute?

You know?

I also got these pigeon ones, but I don't know. Sorry, you guys can't see the stickers.

No, those are so cute.

They're cute and y see theme stickers, Well she's gonna love those. And also I know, since I know you love to pick up nick knacks, my kids have. Now we've amassed so many enamel pins from like you know, you guys bring us cool enamel pins to our live shows and you know, just like you'll go anywhere and you get like an enamel pin, and like we have TMU enamel pins and stuff.

So I bought these, Like I bought these like.

Cloth banners that now hang on the wall and they have all their pins up on them, so like now they're basically they started like a collection and I've just divided them between them and like they have you know, so they've got like drag pins and like all kinds of fun pins.

Like somebody at a live show, so kind of flag is it? What is this thing? Literally No, it's like it's.

Like a beige piece of canvas that it hangs, you know. So it's like let's let this let's let the NML pins do the heavy lifting. And then it's like they just we sort of did a thing where they divided them up. They were like I want this one, I want that one, and it's like I have like a big business bet Middler one from a listener and like, yeah, yeah, I have one of those two Ecdo cooler from listeners. True, I think somebody gave me Lydia Dietz's mother from Beetlejuice one.

My house because also my hairdresser here in New York. She hairdresser is such an old timey term.

It totally is that I sety it don't a way and was like, what am I seventy? Yeah, I can't believe we're both saying it.

But her daughter just got really into the Simpsons and I was like, oh honey, I'm still unpacking you.

About trash gifts.

Yeah, I'll get some trash going your way. But so I'm going to be finding pins here all the time. But as some of you have seen on the internet, you know, manya, our family pet Yes is no longer alive, so I definitely went and.

Spent some money. You have talked.

About the many times she has walked in while we've been podcasting I feel she was the official pet of the podcast and we are so so sad that she but she had a long beautiful she.

Was treated amazing. But yes, I don't know. I know your parents will get another one.

No, but my dad feeds a street cat perfect and twice a day and he comes around. But I think the cat knows what's up because he's been now fully hanging out with my dad in the garden and like rubbing on his legs. So I think because the street cat drove Manya, like they obviously had a rivalry, and so maybe the cat now knows. I just hope the cat runs in because they're not planning on getting another cat.

Oh my gosh, she like can't go back in there. So I don't think they're ready.

But I'm just hoping the street cat just runs inside and doesn't leave. Yeah, but I also think this cat's a little bit slutty and is running ruling the neighborhood. I think she's getting fed and hanging out like I think she's a little sneaky.

She's a Heathcliff. She's like Heathcliff. If you ever watched the Heathcliff cartoon.

No, I don't even know what it is.

Oh my god, Heathcliff was like, well, the Heathcliffe was a boy, but he was like this street cat that was like, quote unquote terrorizing the neighborhood.

Heathcliff, Heathcliff, No one should terrorrize. He does look like Gartfield, Like what's going on? He does?

He's literally like an off brand Garfield for Nicolo and I will have you know that I yesterday went to take and I took my kids to the Garfield movie was so it was so hot and we just needed to go be somewhere inside.

I thought it was really funny.

It got like panned, and I was like, there's a lot of funny jokes in this movie, Like, there are just a lot of good jokes in it. Look the plots a little crazy, kids don't care like you know, but our friend Janelle does a little voice in it. Wow, dog is a voice in it as a cat twist, you know, there's it's cute.

I thought it was cute.

I mean, and I've sat through some shit with for my kids that I'm like, this movie is terrible, But I thought Garfield was pretty fun funny.

I had a VHS.

I wish I remember what it was called, but it was like the Jungle King, but it was like a Lion King ripoff kind of.

Yeah, I found it.

It was the Jungle King and I'm looking at photos of it now, like so funny, even down to the hyena like look, but the hyena has an ayah iago on his shoulder.

I don't know.

I had this VHS and I am in a different universe right now. But yeah, my parents are, you know, they're sad. My dad sent me a really sad photo. I sent them flowers and it's him next to the flowers holding the pillow of mania that I got them for a holiday.

And I'm like, this is a little too sad, But you know.

It was she was older, you know, that's yeah, that's life. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, she was really pretty and everyone that wrote stuff, you know, I did end up posting and my mom does like reading all the comments. Yeah, and it was just nice people being like what a perfect little tourity with an attitude, because yeah, she.

Did have she was very particular.

I can't remember if she even let me touch her when I went to your house. Do you think she did No, I think I saw her, but she didn't like run away, but I did not.

I don't think I attempted.

No.

But she also had a special bond with Talia. She's and so she would sit on Talia during their like grandparent visit days.

So like they had a lovely time.

But you know, it's kind of they Yeah, my parents had a different experience than any of us because I mean we've had it for so long that like my mom wasn't even retired, so like she would get ready for work and do her makeup in the bathroom and Manya would like drink from the fawcet.

Well, yeah, they had like a cute little time.

But you know, and when you were like at home a bit during the pandemic, we were recording your Manya was always around, like you were always like there was Bailey and Manya.

You know, I just feel, you know, it's like good for old people to have things to do. And I liked that, and so I would like this street cat to become more of a wait have you seen I guess it's a series, but I only saw one clip of it. But this mom found a VHS player at a garage. Sound was like, Oh, I'm gonna like show up my kids all my old Disney movies.

This is great.

And now it's the kids are just calling each other street rat, you know, like.

You're a street rat. No, you're a street rat.

And then they watched Pocahontas and they started calling each other savage, and the mom's like, wait, I need to do something about, like what's going on? And then they one hundred one Dalmatians and I guess the kid. I haven't seen these. I only watched the I only saw the Aladdin one. But my friend was telling me that the kid took like a plastic golf club they have and pretended it was a pipe because because the.

Guys, the father smokes the pipe and then Kruella smokes cigarettes and like, I mean kind of makes.

It look cool. I mean, I I hate to say it, so yeah, it was. It's just like this little modern kid is acting a fool.

No, I mean I was watching you have to like, but street Rat is funny.

Okay, So my kids love love Freakin' Aladdin, So I'm sure that Rosie has said street Rat at some point. But we were watching TB, which is like free TV because they Rosie likes the way that the beginning of to Be goes to be to Be, like she likes.

The opening of it.

And then they were watching Casper Old Casper the Friendly Ghost, and like there's fully one where Casper goes on to like a Native American reservation, but it's like it's very dated.

They're all talking.

And like you know, Broken England, It's like that, and so I was like, okay, okay, so they're saying Indian, but you're this is Native American people, Like I was, these are indigenous people, like these are people that lived here before us. I was like trying to like erase what they were seeing as they were seeing it. And like, cause Disney does disclaimer at the beginning of like all their movies now that are all really these contained stereotypes. Yeah,

But boy is sacked. I mean, Aladdin is top tiered like that. It's the best, the music, the genie. I do have a story. I have a huge story.

Remember I texted Kara and Casey in a group text and I said, this is you'll understand.

So I and I'm.

Gonna put it on the internet. I taped I came home and I was like in heaven. So I was like taping myself.

Talking about it.

But so you might see it on the internet if my dude Matt decides to post.

So my friend of DT from India's in town.

So we're just walking around, taking a long way, and we're walking home and I usually take this one other path, but you seem worried.

What happened? No, that sounds like the beginning of an SVU. Oh oh yeah, No, no, no.

I didn't take my normal root like I took a short cut down an alley even though I've like never seen an alley.

In New York City.

No, just you know, cause I get when people come to visit, and you saw this when my friend Alex came, I do go insane and I kind of overplan and I want everything to be right and I want them to see everything, and everyone just wants to chill out and I am like spiraling, And so that happened. I was like, Oh, I don't want to take the street. I'll take this other street. It's more busy, more people are out. I wanted to like see stuff that that

I saw it opening week in the movie theater and they go, you saw it in the theater?

I go yeah. My friend, our friend Megan, was like, piss to me, what is happening? I thought this was like in your stand up and they reckon you.

He literally just said Walrus horror movie to a random girl, Oh my god, and it happened to be.

Me and I knew it and I go tusk and it was just this wild thing and I was in such bla.

I was like, it's a.

Walk by movie game, Like this is all I've been planning and training for my whole life.

Because it's like he didn't go excuse me, miss, like do you have a second for me? To like settle an argument between me and my girl. Like it was just like Walrus's horror movie.

And I went like, I was like ready to go. He's like, Hi, I'm the living cinema trix. Yes, I like all I do is play movie. It was like in the wild.

It's like all of my training came to be in this like one moment. But I was telling a friend about it, and I go, I do like the genre. I saw human centipete open, I saw teeth like, I don't know what it is, but I like these weird surgery situations. But then I called my mom because I was like, you won't believe what happened. I'm like, this is the best thing that's ever happened to me. And so I'm telling my mom and then she goes, we'll explain the movie to me. And I was like, oh,

Right? Obviously you don't excre me.

I mean, can I just I want you to google because it's so Google justin Long Tusk and watch your nightmares unravel. No no, no, no no no no no no. I can't even I couldn't even finish the promo for Human Centipede when it came out. I started watching it because everyone was talking about it, and then I was like no, no, no, no no no, Like that's the opposite

It was every It was everything I could have ever wanted. But I texted our friend and a DT was probably like the Magic of New York. I mean, like we knew how much. Thinking Sheila it went, I know how much this means to She just was laughing. She goes, I can't believe that just happened. And I understand and I go, yeah. But then I texted our friend and I was just like, you won't believe what just happened to me?

Because I made her go see it.

She goes, we went Opening Night and she goes, I remember spitting out my flatbread sandwich.

I remember we got Cozy. Do you remember Cozy? Oh? It was my favorite place. Yeah, because they got the best vegetarian. Oh.

The tomato soup from Cozy was my favorite thing, and I would drive miles out of my way to get it. In Connecticut and when I worked at when I worked at one of the Nickelodeon buildings was right across from like the winter like the theater that like Mama Mia played out forever on fiftieth on Broadway. You know, Cozy right across the street. I ate it for lunch three times a week, like I'm obsessed.

That's so funny.

I would get the flatbread sandwich with the hummus like tomato cucumber like that one all the time.

I like the capresee they had a hot capreisee.

Our friend was like, is it's still in business? I'm like no, it wasn't actually good.

No, it was like good Brokes, Like I was a broke executive assistant. That's like what I ate, you know, like will lunch be under ten dollars?

Yeah, I guess I ate it.

When I was a salon receptionist, Yeah, it was my salon receptioning day is but yeah, she goes, I still remember spitting out my sandwich and I.

Go, yeah, that was it.

And I was like to be walking on a different street and just be whispered that. But I was in such a shock I walked away. I wish I was like, when did you see it? What are you guys talking like? I wish I just knew more about them, But it was such a like moment.

I couldn't even believe it that.

Yeah, so hopefully I didn't overhype it to you guys, but that is the best thing that's ever happened to me.

Yeah.

Wait, now, of course I'm on the Wikipedia page for Cozy and they had some problems in the pandemic bankruptcy but they were trying to reopen. But it seems yeah, twenty twenty February actually.

Right before the pandemic. It's like they can't even blame the pandemic.

They literally filed chapter eleven the month before the pandemic really went down.

I don't know it was.

I mean it was like a Panera style If you're like, what is that. It's like fast casual, but like Panera lunch spot, A.

Lot of a lot of salads and flat bread sandwiches, but they're bread was like it was like rusty was like this crunchy.

I really did like the.

Bread was so good and it was a little bit salty, and it was so good, like soft with a little crunch.

It was so good. It only existed in case you think you're going crazy. New York, d C.

Virginia, Pennsylvania, mass Connecticut, Illinois, Indiana, Ohio.

Oh yeah, so that's what. So only like ten states or something.

Oh so Adit does a really funny joke. I went to her show and she talks about how like, when you travel to India, it's called like bombay belly because you're gonna get like diarrhea and stuff.

Uh huh.

And then she goes, but it's the opposite when you come to America, you get so much constipation.

They call it Connecticut clot. I love it. I laughed a lot. That's so funny. Go Connecticut. We're so we're good for that.

Let some start the episode.

But before we get going, I wanted to point out that a major character in this episode is played by Martin Mull, the actor, and since we recorded the actual meat of the episode, he passed away just a few days ago, so when this episode comes out, he will have passed away like a week ago, and we didn't know that, which is why obviously we were in the time machine. We didn't mention it when we were talking about his illustrious career. We were trying to get him.

And I think Catherine high Gall is good. Yeah.

Catherine was just a little bitchy, like yeah, so crazy.

I think she was like I think she's having like.

Shit about the wrong people, like she just you know people because people love Gray's Anatomy and Shondaland and then people. Really that was the jud Appatoo Heyday rogue, like and it's like.

Other actors are like getting in bed with the assistant directors in the middle of the night without asking, and people are like, he's just a drunk, fun guy, you know, Like we don't let a woman be a bitch for like ten seconds, so I do think we should give her a pass. Although in high school, you know, everybody thought everybody was just so jealous of her that everybody was like, what a bitch, And I was like, I think we just all want to be her. She's in

We loved him. I don't know why.

It's kind of psychotic, but what we also they were He was either in the Man in the Iron Mask or some other version of the Musketeers, like I do remember him being in sometimes Soword situation and he tried to take his own life but the rope fell and his butt was naked.

Like I don't know, I think he's lived kind.

Of seen our day part du bus and I know we have to start the episode, but it was pride. It is about to be fourth of July, Like, do we want to say anything?

I don't know.

Please vote Blue. I know that Biden seems like he's gonna die. Please don't let Trump be in charge. Please please. I'm begging you for the love of our country.

That's all.

But everyone that listens to this podcast is pretty much, I think.

On the same page with us.

Yeah, I don't know.

Do you have any fourth happy for the July? I hope. I mean this is coming out on the ninth.

So everybody, I hope you had a great Fourth of July.

I hope you're staying cool pool parties. I'm going to the beach, bitch.

Yeah, reapply that sun block I got my accidentally, Rosie burnt the side of her butt and we have to It's okay now now it's a weird tan line, but you know, we gotta reapply.

Oh and we did record this episode when I forgot all of my equipment while traveling, so the sound is not as pristine as usual.

That is what's going on.

But also, please hit me up if you also watch The Jungle King and that was a part of your childhood, because I would love some sort of connection in.

This wild world totally. All right, let's get stuted. All right.

Today, we are going to season ten, which I think is one of the best seasons we've got Zebra's We've got a lot of crazy shit in season ten. We're doing this episode retro, episode number six from the season, and it pops off with alarms going off. We're at a fire department. There's a structural fire in a brownstone. Someone Rich's house is burning down. Let's go. Engine ninety nine is on their way. But then a cab pulls in front of the fire truck and it just like

She's sick.

This lady left her in my cab and the kid is burning up with a fever. So we're gonna follow that storyline. We are not caring about the fire anymore. At the hospital, Benson and Stabler are in a gurney

It's also called thrush.

Maybe one of your kids had it, but you're constantly fighting crime, so you wouldn't know. So Benson and Stabler are confused because thrush is not a sexually transmitted disease, so like, why did you call us? And she's like, and we do see the little baby in the little bed thingy, and she's very cute. They're like hodling through the hospital. She's got huge cheeks, she's really baby looking. Yeah, and it's very sad. The doctor explains that a crime

It was like ninety seconds to get all this information out.

So now they're talking to the cab driver, who says that he dropped the mom off at port authority. She left the bag on the backseat and he noticed when he heard the baby crying. About a block later, we've got Ruben Morales, friend of the Podole de la Fuente, and they're checking out footage from the camera and the cab. But the guy right before the baby discovery is a sixty five year old man. It's not this woman he talked about, So what's up? Maybe the cab he's lying.

Trying to figure out what's happening to me.

But my mom is cooking and there's onions, and that is why I'm struggling. I was like, I've been living right, I'm like, what is what's happening?

I'm doing everything right. My can't onions are bothering me all the way up the stairs. I love that thing you posted where you were like being at home at your parents' house is like, Wow, so much trauma, but damn I'm eating so good. Well.

I also posted a thing of like you revert back to being a teen, like I had to flip out yesterday.

I don't know if you saw no, No, I didn't see yet.

So my sister and I were leaving the house and I was just wearing my skim's pajama bottoms and my dad turns to my sister and goes, don't you think those pants are too long? And I was just like, you know, think I know my pants are Why are you talking about my pants to my sister's Like this is ridiculous. And the night before, my mom goes, are those pants comfortable? And it's like the pajama bottom that I packed as a professional traveler, you're you're wondering if

My mom for sure, for sure, and my I just was like I could not get my sister's like, you need to stop flipping out about these pants. And I was like, I just do they think I'm stupid? I don't understand, and she goes, he's eighty six, and I go.

You're right, You're right. Yeah.

It's like parents need to stop commenting on stupid shit because my mom does that too, but they can't like is that really how you want to wear your hair out? You're not gonna push it back or anything like. It's like rude little comments, but.

Not even to me. Like turn to my sister and goes, those look long. So then I put on shorts and then I was freezing.

Just to fite them.

And then I had to meet them and it's like, no, I know that they're big pants. I wasn't gonna wear these pajamas out, like right, but yeah, now I'm just cry in my childhood room because of the onions the windows open. I would leave the curtain open, but I'm scared of my neighbors. Oh yeah, they're creeps.

So he admits there's no footage and so the cabby is clean. He has no record, and no baby girls have been reported missing lately, so they're sort of at a dead end. They need the cave to describe the mother to a sketch artist, and he's like okay. So then Melinda Warner summons them to the morgue. Melinda says that the baby is still alive but septic, and that doctor Massey, the doctor that they were originally talking to,

Like that's not really your territory.

She's like, well, doctor Massey and I happened to be on an AID surveillance team together, and she sent Melinda a swab from the baby and she ran her DNA and lives like, well, she won't be in the system. And it's like, honestly, how dare you question Melinda Warner, Like do you think that she thinks of six year old a six month old baby's going to be in

Around here, very very stable. That's pretty wild.

I know, it's like, come on, bro, we're not back in season five here and ding ding Melinda was right got them their first lead, but all they do is question her. And the mom is Joanne Suarez, a frequent guest of the Department of Corrections, and she's at a quote charming.

Little place they say called Rikers.

So now we're at Rikers and we're talking to Joanne and oh my gosh. She is played by one of our very first guests on this podcast, Jessica Pimental from Orange is the New Black, our heavy metal queen. We interviewed her about a different episode she was on and I don't even remember if we talked her about this one No.

Three.

We didn't know, but she's played a bad junkie mother in four out of yeah episodes.

We definitely talked her about that.

Go back and listen to our Jessica Pamental episode well, and the best fact was.

That it was the only time Marishka has ever not shown up to work was her first day because she was in the Taylor Swift Bad Blood group during the VMAs and got two wasted and could not catch her flight, hungover and so love that, love that tidbit, Jessica.

Yeah, so we covered.

She was our guest for the episode Institutional Fail, which was our eighteenth episode, so yeah, she was in our top she was in our top twenty episodes.

So Whoopy Goldberg one that I'm always talking about.

Yes, yes, that one is really really tough, but a very good episode of television.

So Joanne is like, you got the wrong girl.

I don't have a daughter, and Stabler's like, we've got the DNA, sweethearts, so why don't you take a seat, And then she's like okay. She like admits that she lied on her intake form about having a kid because she doesn't want social services to know about her so they can take her away from her, which is a perfectly you know, rational fear. She's like, I had her at home. I never got a birth certificate. And Stabler's like, well, who's the father, and he because you know, Stabler's so

We understand that, we don't understand what you're doing.

We say trick baby about Rosie because she was an easy baby, and it tricks you into having a second baby, and then your.

Baby's not like that's what people say.

They're like, oh, yeah, your first one can be a trick baby, where you're like, oh, babies are pretty easy. It's not that bad, like Rosie sleep trained so easily. All this shit, and then Oscar came along and was like, hey, what's up. I'm gonna be a chaos tornado in your life. So anyway, I maybe will stop calling her a trick baby now that I know that there's a double meaning.

Is she okay?

I love that she's like fully denying she has this baby, and now she's like, oh wait, is she okay? Is there a reason for coming to ask me about my daughter, and it's like, you were not concerned two minutes ago, but here we go. So they're like, no, Antonia is in the hospital with AIDS, and Joanne looks like very shook, like it's a hard thing to watch on mother hear this, And she said, I stopped using when I was pregnant. I did everything I could to keep the baby clean.

And Joann's like, I never meant to hurt her.

She said, I left the baby with Ida Jallo, my downstairs neighbor, when I got locked up, and she promised to take care of her. So that is like very sad because I feel like I didn't even know that I didn't. I like assumed that if you got pregnant and you were HIV positive or had AIDS, that it would just pass to the baby because of like fluid, you know, fluids in your butt. But this episode really like lets you know that there's a lot you can do to prevent a pregnant woman can do to prevent

Mister Marang the cab driver. Done done.

They are a couple, and he's like, oh, they're just here to talk to me, like he doesn't know why the cops are there necessarily. And this actor, by the way, his name is bob's Alusanmakon and he is a Nigerian actor who is killing it. He's in the Dune movies. He's in Star Trek's Strange New Worlds. I mean, he is very booked. So now they have Ida and mister Morong in Cement Barr's room, and Ida explains that.

Their green cards have expired.

They were worried they were going to get deported, and Antonia just kept getting sicker and sicker and stablers like, so you just made up that story about finding her in the cab to get rid of her, and they're.

Like no, no, no, no no.

We loved Antonia like she was our own and everything was fine until she stopped eating. And Ida said, I thought she just missed her mom, but then I saw the white spots in her mouth and I knew it was AIDS because of her experience in her own country.

I think they are supposed to be.

From Gambia in the episode, and her sister had AIDS as well, she said, so she knows what it looks like. So why didn't you bring her to a hospital, And mister Morong says, because AIDS medicines are poison, and then Stabler and Benson give each other the like hoo boy, look you know where they're like, uh oh, looney's loney alert. Mister Marong says he heard that from their president, but that also the president of Gambia has found a cure and it is a green paste made of herbs that

So we went on the internet.

We found a doctor who shared our beliefs and we gave Antonia vitamins, but she just got worse and Stabler's like, I want the name of this quack doctor.

So now bing bang bong, we.

Are at the office of doctor Gideon Hutton, and holy shit. He is played by a legend, Martin mull. This guy has been acting since the seventies. He was Colonel Mustard in the original Clue movie. He's in a movie I was like obsessed within my teens called Ski Patrol. He was in forty six episodes of Roseanne, seventy three episodes of Sabrina the Teenage Witch. I mean, his his IMDb goes on and on. He's legendary. Is he does he stick out for you for something Roseanne?

Yeah? And weep weep, yes as well.

He's just been a few in the recount episodes, but very funny and in Roseanne.

He you know, he's great. He's like the restaurant boss. I think, yeah, he's he's a great actor.

He gives me the vibe of mister Feenie. Though I or like, I was like, oh, he's been a principle, but I was.

Just about to say that he's like he's like.

Funny, like bumbling principal kind of vibes.

Well, you know, my niece and all the kids. They know Sabrina Carpenter from Girl Meets World. Oh yeah, because I'm new to Sabrina Carpenter, right, I'm just like, oh my god, I love the new Please Please Please, Like, oh you haven't the videos.

It's it's for me. It's better than espresso for me. For me personally, I'm obsessed with Please Please Please. I listened to it now all the time.

But so I was going off on it and they were like, we've liked her for a long time and she's really changing, and I'm like changing to what what?

She's a very loop star. She used to be different and I had no idea.

Yeah, I think I knew she was like a Disney girly or something, but I didn't know what from.

Obviously she doesn't asked you.

I know she was acting, and she was actually gonna be in Mean Girls, the musical before the pandemic. Oh, but so she is a theater girly. I just didn't know about Girl Meets worlds.

Yeah, me neither.

Martin Moull, huge staple character actor of My Youth, for sure, And he's telling the cops that he instructed the wrongs to give Antonia yogurt and Benson goes yogurt for aids, Are you out of your mind? And then doctor Cucko says, not every patient with HIV needs medication. He says Antonia had a minor case of thrush and he chose alternative treatment, which has worked very well. It's like, no, it hasn't. She's in the hospital. Stabler's like, your alternative treatment almost

Which love it?

I'm loving the SaaS he says anti fungal medication like any other medical professional would prescribe, and Stabler argues that any medical professional would have given an HIV positive child medication from visit one and he calls him a quack and doctor Hutton's like, well, that's a wrap on our conversation, and Stabler goes how many people has he cured with vitamins and yogurt? And He's like, I gotta go. I

And she goes, yogurt is not a murder weapon.

Holistic medicine is legal and people can choose their own treatments, and Stabler's like, yeah, when they're based in science, not voodoo. Munch with the info and the color commentary, and he goes, I checked out doctor Demento's website. It's called the Truth about HIV, and this guy's claiming that there is no proof that HIV causes AIDS and.

That Big Farmer's drugs are going to kill you.

So he thinks that AIDS is a global conspiracy run by big pharma for money, and Finn pipes in and goes, yeah, and my parents thought that HIV was created in a lab and that the CIA spread it into prisons to kill blacks and gays.

I don't think that.

That's true, but I don't think it's also crazy to believe that the government has done shady shit like this, right because they have. The doctor is an AIDS denier, which I truly did not know. This was a thing part of a small community that believe HIV doesn't cause AIDS and that AIDS doesn't actually exist. And they fill us in that Antonia is doing okay, but the doctor's so rude.

It's like, okay, so all these people fucking died.

It's kind of like the Sandy Hook deniers, Holocaust deniers, all of it.

Totally.

How fucking dare you take people's true tragedies and just saying no, yeah, I don't get it.

Yeah, And this episode came out in two thousand and eight. It's like, this isn't I don't know. It's very it's very shocking. So we find out that Antonia is doing okay, but that her doctor doesn't think she'll make it to high school, which is that's very sad, but hopefully that's not true because so much, so much, like I feel like there's been so much progress. Honestly, the fictional Antonia I think is still with us. Graylex says that Antonia can't be Hutton's first fuck up, and it's time to

And Craigan she might believe in it. She might take her kids there. She might, she might.

And Cragan is like, it's gray Lick's issue. Why don't you go bark up her tree? And she's like no. Benson and Stabler interrogated my client without me present, but Stabler said that was just a friendly and when we interrogate him, he'll know it because he'll feel my hot

So they show up at the Ross house.

A teen boy answers and tells them that Dundun his sister is dead. So top of aac two, they're gathered around a TV with Lisa's mom watching home videos of her and paused and she looks happy on a swing and she goes, this is two months ago, just before she died, and she looks pretty healthy and happy, and the mom says, she had an allergic reaction to penicillin cough and she had a cough and a fever, and I took her to doctor Hutton. He prescribed a moxicillin.

Just leave me and Tommy alone. And her son is named Tommy, and it is wild.

One of our listeners has compiled a list of how many side characters are named Tommy in this show, and it is insane, like they just can never think of a little brother's name ever besides Tommy. It's like a Bengi, a little Nikki. I mean there has been a little

We need the anonymous tipster.

So now we're back to Reuben Morales, and he's annoyed because he's like, why can't we just track the tip line and they're like, because then no one will leave tips. Dog Like, we can't like really do that. So meanwhile,

It's pretty cool.

Then Morales pulls up the call from the tipst and it sounds like a middle aged man. He's like, he knows Lisa Ross, her doctor and her address, but he doesn't know that she died two months ago, so like, who.

Is this guy?

There's a sound of a school bell ringing right before the guy hangs up and they're like, oh, Susan Ross was a teacher. Maybe it's a coworker, Maybe it's Jack Lufton. He co signed her car loan and teaches chemistry. So boom, boom boom, we are getting right to this tipster pretty

Jack Jack Lufton? Okay.

He says, I'm on anti retrovirals, which I'm gonna call ARVs from now on because it's such a mouthful, and that's what they called him in the episode A Lot. He's like, I'm on ARVs. My viral load is near zero, and I feel great. And he told the school right away, and he thinks that's why she got fired, and the

With her own kids as well.

She breastfed Lisa for a year because doctor Hutton told her it was okay.

Yikes.

So now we're at the precinct and we're getting some of this medical info I alluded to earlier from Melinda. So she says two thirds of the world's kids get with HIV get infected during pregnancy or at birth from their mother, and the rest get it from breastfeeding. She says in the US, HIV positive women have a ninety eight percent chance of having a healthy baby if they take ARVs during pregnancy and they put the kid on meds right after birth, which Susan didn't do because she

They say.

If Hutton knew that Susan had HIV, he had a legal duty to have the kids tested. Doctors have to offer patients treatments that are proven effective. In Lisa's case, an HIV test and ARVs if she tested positive, and Stabler's like, well, how do we prove she died of AIDS and not a reaction to penicillin? And Graylex says led subpoena the files, but Melinda said, there's really only one conclusive way to find out what killed Lisa, and it does involve a shovel cut to the gravestone. Cut

She's like, you dug up my daughter? How could you do that?

And Benson's like, how could you kill her? Like she's very deadpan. Her lawyer is like, she had the right to breastfeed her child, and it's like, sir, that is really not what we're talking about here, Like it's not about breastfeeding. She did not have the right to infect her child with HIV and withhold medication from her. And Susan is still on the I didn't hurt my baby train I didn't make her sick, Like she's just like truly not getting it.

Melinda is now doing the autopsy.

We're cutting back and forth between like them talking to people and Melinda doing this autopsy. So now we flash back to an interrogation with doctor Hutton and Viola Davis, and she's arguing that he did everything he could to save Lisa, but Gray looks like, yeah, everything except treat the ticking time bomb that's inside of her. And he said, which, by the way, I would not refer to HIV or AIDS as a ticking time bomb today. I think she's being dramatic for the show. And he says he doesn't

And they get to it in this episode, but like for them to admit that means everything crashes down.

Yes, Like they can't.

They can't because then their whole worldview is wrong.

Right.

It's like those men on the streets where someone is like, didn't God kill all the first male born babies?

And then the people just have to run away yeah yah.

Yeah, where they're like, you know what against is also against the Bible, Like talking to people when you're on your period or wearing mixed fibers and they're like, wait, what,

He didn't take blood or do a chest X ray.

Why subject her to needles an unnecessary dose of radiation. He listened to her lungs and they were clear.

Uh oh.

Busted back at Melinda's audiobook recording, where she is noting that the lungs had significant conject and she had white, patchy, fluffy masses in the lower lobe, which means she died of numosis sick pneumonia, which Melinda says she has only ever seen in AIDS patients, and so she's ruling this a homicide. Benson walks right into the interrogation room and arrests Susan for murdering her daughter. Stabler's bringing doctor Hutton out in cuffs as well. Who's screaming about how he

Like, you know, like babying him.

And his haircut, I would say, is like Jonathan Taylor Thomas.

Yeah it is.

Yeah, it is absolute, like early two thousand's butt cut like wave like kid, absolute teen boy hair You're correct to back three. Melinda is walking us slash the jury through a PowerPoint style animation of how HIV attacks life saving T cells. This is like shit you learn in third grade. The T cells are what fight your disease. But eventually the disease destroys the T cells faster than the body can make them, and it destroys the immune system,

And Melinda's like, it's not that simple, and Viola.

Davis goes the hearing problem doctor and graylik is like, is this bitch gonna let Melinda talk or what? And the judge tells Emmett to chill out. And this is Judge Walter Bradley. We have seen him many other times. And Melinda says, I didn't find HIV in the bloodstream because she'd been embalmed. Anything causing a compromise of the immune system can cause PCP, pneumonia, cancer, malnutrition, radiation, poisoning, toxic chemicals. Too bad, there's no evidence of any of

VELAs should have intervened.

But also he's an arrogant man, so of course he has to get on the sand.

But I feel a real lawyer would never put a momba for television. We must see him talk. He explains that diseases attributed incorrectly to AIDS are caused by blood toxicity from repeated recreational drug use, malnutrition, and anti HIV medications. So all right, whatever, sir gray Lix turn he's like, hey, bro, have you ever so much as written a high school science paper on HIV or AIDS? And he's like, no, I have not, And he hasn't published a paper or

And she's like, oh, like that biologist in.

Sam Brand who's been completely shunned by the scientific community, or the Minister of health in South Africa who told people to use garlic and beat root to treat HIV. And he's like, you don't get it. People are being wrongly treated and diagnosed. It's a back and forth and she's like like Lisa Ross and he's like, she died

How dare you?

And he's like, she has an agenda, just like all the doctors who perform unnecessary procedures just to pad their wallets.

Big pharma.

I mean, he's like he's making munch like an absolute conservative up here, And even Viola Davis is like, fuck, I hope the chuck clears, Like how am I?

How? Like?

Does I don't understand how this man has a black lawyer when he's saying things out there like Melinda has more family members who have.

Died of AIDS because she's black.

And the judge tells him to shut the fuck up, and he finally stops, and so Melinda chases him down the court steps, telling him the rate of HIV contraction is three times higher in New York City?

Is that a lie to? He tells Melinda, wake up.

We have vaccines and we know the body produces antibody, so why is there no AIDS vaccine and why is not one patient being cured? And Melinda's like, fuck you, we all want to cure for AIDS. You're killing people with your beliefs. And he's like, my beliefs are scientific facts, and she's like, junk science. You're a murderer and a false prophet. He goes, that's what they said to Jesus

And Gray look's like, I don't know.

Jury's love conspiracy theories, like they could buy this garbage, and Melinda's like, I don't really want to gab with you right now, Gray Lick. If you lose this case and it gives him more credibility, people are going to die. Bye, girl, Go do your job. So on the stand, Susan is now testifying. She says she found out she had HIV when she was pregnant with Lisa, then they put her on anti retrovirals.

She said that she never.

Was sicker in her whole life, and it's like, you also could just have morning sickness from being pregnant. Then a friend recommended doctor Hutton, who took her off the meds and he saved her life, you know. And now it's Graylock's turn, and she's like, Okay, this woman is the mayor of De Lulu Town and she's like, I'm proof that Hutton is right, and Lisa's death is not proof that he's wrong because that was an accident. And she's like, did Hutton tell you not to test Lisa

ROBERTA.

Nolan, she tested positive fifteen years ago and is still alive today because of ARV's Susan's lawyer. This guy is like, I object she's testifying, and the judge tries to stop her, but Graylck is on a mission.

She's like, look at them, Susan.

These people are alive and Lisa is dead because you withheld treatment.

Suddenly, as we have seen happen in this.

Courtroom before I feel, Susan falls to the floor and begins seizing. Hutton is like, let me get like, let me at her. I'm her doctor, and then Melinda is there helping this woman and is like, call an ambulance. So in the next scene, Susan wakes up at the hospital confused. Benson's, lie, you're at Mercy Hospital. She's like, what's wrong with me? And It's like, girl, you have toxoplasmosis. It's a brain disease that people with AIDS get, and like, of course something's wrong with you.

Why are you so crazy?

She said she had terrible migraines after Lisa died, and that Hutton said it was grieving headaches and that it would pass. Benson's like, girl, you knew you had HIV. It was only a matter of time before you got sick. She says, I needed to believe him. I needed to believe that I was going to be okay. And I do believe that you can that this delusion can be part of it. Like I think I've seen people be misdiagnosed with stuff because they have something.

They just have to believe that they're going to be okay. So Hutton was wrong and about Lisa and about you. But he's a doctor. Why would he lie to me?

Susan's crying, She's like finally kind of starting to get it, and Benson says, because if he admits the truth, he has to take responsibibility for what happened to Lisa and what's happening to you. And it's like, has no one in this woman's life been a Benson before now, like Benson is somehow getting through to her, but no one in her let her boyfriend of a year and a half, No, she gave HIV too, No one could tell her anything about this Hutton guy. But now Benson's she's making a dent.

Jig is fucking up. I gotta get out of here. What do you want?

They want him to plead guilty to criminally negligent homicide, Just surrender his medical license and his patient records, and he'll do five years in jail for three dead kids. I feel like five years is not enough. And he says I'm not going to make any deals, and Viola's like, take the deal, dog, it's over, and he goes, okay, but you're not going to silence me. I'm going to fucking run for president and the Republicans will nominate me and I will speak the truth from my prison cell

So now we really have.

No idea how she contracted it, but she did get it in ninety three, before she ever had a baby. So basically they're figuring out Tommy could have HIV and we've got to get a court order to have him tested at the hospital. Elliott is trying to calm down Tommy. He is fighting the hospital staff hard. He kicks Stabler in the gut, and I'm very sad that this has not made it into my Stabler montage of Stabler getting his ass kicked.

Maybe I have to make a second one, because this is a good one.

He gets thrown back against this machine and he's really like the wind has been knocked out of him by a teen boy. And before they have a chance to do the test, Viola Davis shows up with some kind of injunction to stop it, saying she's taking Tommy back to the shelter, and Stabler's like, he's not your client, and she says, staying Strong hired me to wrap him, which I'm assuming is Hutton's organization about, you know, denying HIV, and that what she just handed them as a restraining

So ooh la la.

Now we see that she's talking to Stabler who's putting his shirt back on and he looks, you know, right and tight, and he was getting an X ray from the kick in the ribs that Tommy gave him, and gray Lick's like, well, we don't really have any standing here, like there's nothing we can do to compel him to take this test, like it's not on us.

And then the.

Doctor goes, oh, by the way, Stabler, you've got two broken ribs, and gray Lick is like, ooh, eureka, that's just what we need. So we don't even really know what she's planning. I mean I do because I watch hours and hours of the show. But now Stabler shows up at Tommy's school and arrests him for assaulting a police officer and purp walks him right out of his school, which is either going to make him really cool or

Why do you believe it? Do you believe it because they told you that or because you think it's the truth.

And then he goes, after we learned about AIDS in school. I talk to my mom and she told me there was no proof of what they taught me in school, and it made sense. So you're basically only believing it because your mom told you. And what made so much sense to you? He says, and he repeats like the same shit We've heard the entire episode, like bullshit, bullshit. Oh like it can't it's it's the pharmaceutical company. They

And he's like, of course I do. Why would I not?

And she's like, well, there are Holocaust deniers. Do you see how that's the same there are people who think the Holocaust didn't happen. And he's like, why would you believe someone who tells you AIDS isn't real? The same as why would you believe someone who tell you the Holocaust isn't real? And he goes because my mom wouldn't lie to me. And it's like cue to the slide show of the millions of moms who lie to their kids.

It might, it might not, I don't care.

You also said YouTube doesn't work at your house. Yeah, I told them cocomelan does not work at my house. I am telling them lies for their health, and uh, I don't care.

It's maybe like I just want them to stop drinking bathwater, but they won't. Okay, anyway, drink bathwater so bad they know it makes me crazy.

They'll just dip their faces.

In and go, I just drank bathwater, and I'm like, stop, so I probably should just shut up about it and they'll stop.

But same with pool water. Apparently that does give you diarrhea. But I don't know. I'm making things up now.

Graylick is like, your mom could actually totally lie to you because if you are positive for HIV, it would shatter her whole fantasy. And he's like, I'm fine, I'm not sick. You're just trying to scare me and They're like, you should be scared. Your mom would wink your ass and she watched your sister die. Do you have to be dying too before you can see her lies? And then Tommy's like stop it, please stop it, stop it,

I sort of.

Don't get that because he does not have confidence. He has been brainwashed from a young age, So I disagree with the judge. Gray Lick moves immediately to remand Tommy without bail for assaulting a cop and being a known flight risk, and em It's like, this is vindictive, and then Stabler is like gray like, what the fuck are you doing?

And she's like why.

Yeah, She's like, his mom just died, his sister just died, Yeah, his dad died in a Safari accident.

He really doesn't have anybody.

He's in a shelter and Grayle's like, I'm treating him like the adult he wants to be treated like. And then Stabler's like, get some perspective, bitch, Like the only crime is guilty of is being born to the wrong mother, and stablors like, drop it.

We lost.

So Grayleck goes, all right, fine, I withdraw the motion. I dismissed the charges, and then Graylex says to Stabler, I hope you know what you're doing. So then Tommy walks up to Stabler and goes thanks, and he goes, you still owe me for the ribs and Tommy goes, well, I'm not getting tested, and Stabler was like, just do me one favor.

So now they're at Mercy Hospital.

To introduce Tommy to someone that doctor Massey introduced Stabler to, and it is this kid named Kyle.

He is sitting on a hospital bed.

He is bald, clearly from chemo and Tommy goes, you're not going to change my mind because he has AIDS, and Kyle goes, I don't have AIDS. I have brain cancer. I told my parents I didn't feel well, but we're Christian scientists, so we don't believe in medicine or doctors.

My parents just told me to pray.

He said he knew he was going to be okay because he was praying, but then he went blind and then his friend took him to the hospital. The doctors gave him chemo and radiation and he already got his site back. So Tommy goes, oh, your parents must have been stoked, and Kyle goes, no, they were pissed. They thought I was dissing God. I just want to get better,

I guess let's keep the fucked train going choo choo.

So we're gonna go through a lot of stuff, a few cases, so you know, just get in there and get ready to get pissed.

Okay.

Also, obviously, federal health officials and AIDS experts, they say HIV unquestionably causes AIDS, although it can take more than a decade to develop. HIV tests detect antibodies to the virus and are accurate predictors of who is infected.

Just so everybody knows, just so everyone is absolutely clear.

Yeah, So this case is about Kristen Massori and her daughter Eliza James Scovell. So doctor Peter Havens is a professor of pediatrics and epediomology.

I said it wrong.

I don't care EPIDEMI yeah, considering we just went through COVID, it's insane. I can't say that out loud. At the Medical College of Wisconsin, and he said to the La Times that contrarian HIV theories promoted on about a four hundred websites are bogus bolooney. And I only included the quote because of bogus bologne.

I love bogus blogne I want to use it. I want that to become boloney. That is our thing.

Write that down, Casey, so we don't forget. He says it's all pseudoscience. They choose one paper and deny the existence of one hundred others. And we talked about that where it's like all these doctors disagree, like, why are you so.

Gung ho about one article? Yeah, one looney tune. It's weird.

So Kristin MAJORI did not believe that HIV cause dates.

She was HIV positive.

She was a mother of two and very vocal and a well known leader of this movement that challenged the basic medical understanding and treatment acquired immune a deficiency syndrome. It's she obviously did not vaccinate her kids. She does not believe in shots. She gave birth at home because she wanted to avoid any tests for HIV or any of the meds that would be required by California law. So, I mean, that's the thing. It's just like purposely avoiding help.

End of April.

Eliza Jane was ill and she developed a mucus like a yellow mucus running nose, according to Christine, as told to a coroner's investigator. April twentieth, she took her daughter to the doctor who found clear lungs, no fever, and adequate oxygen levels. Still not feeling good, So five days later the mom sought a second opinion and he suspected an ear infection but believed it could be resolved without antibiotics.

And then a follow called. The mom said Eliza was doing better.

Then she reached out to this Denver physician Philip and Ko and Ky whatever I m CEO and I want to say incanto. So doctor Philip was visiting La for a lecture and he was asked by Christine to examine her, and he did find liquid in her right ear drum.

May fourteenth.

This Philip guy prescribed a moxicillin even though he is not licensed to practice medicine in California.

Honey, go back to Denver. Like what?

The next day, Eliza Jane vomited several times and became pale and then stopped breathing and then quotes the mother total Corner's office. According to La Times, her daughter crumpled like a paper doll. The next morning, she died at a Van Nuy's hospital.

Now, all three.

Doctors that Christine reached out to are all known for their unconventional approaches.

To medicine.

These are guys who are staunch opponents of mandatory vaccinations, vocal. One of them's a vocal critic of male circumcision, you know that kind of a vibe.

And that's the thing.

It's like, she knew she had HIV and she still only went to people who didn't believe in it while your daughter is sick.

Yeah, Like I think it's like I do think it's like a really really severe form of denial, right. It's like if you just deny, deny, deny, it'll go away. And if there's one doctor telling you that you're right, that your denial will make it go away, you're like, yeah, that's the doctor I love.

And I'm going with him.

You know, I know in my head it's like, you would do anything for your kid.

Your kid is sick, you would go to doctor.

You wouldn't only find weird doctors that agreed with you would go to a You would just do what you needed to do well. But then you'd have to face that you probably gave your kids HIV, Like it's your fault because you did absolutely nothing. You denied your disease because of your own fear and you know, delusion it's your fault ultimately, but y.

On September fifteenth, two thousand and five, a report came out by the Los Angeles County Corners that concluded it was AIDS related pneumonia. Then the LA Times alerted a bunch of medical experts for this article, and they all said that any doctor who knew her circumstances should have tested those kids. And if the mom refused to refer to do that, then you refer the matter to authorities. That's just you know, what's the what's the their code of ethics.

The hippocratic oath first do no harm?

Yes, okay, thank you, Like there's probably a rule about this. So, according to interviews and records, two of the doctors knew that Christine was the HIV status, and they knew that she breastfed her kids and still would not treat or

One of the.

Doctors is quoted saying it would have been wrong to force Christine to test her daughter because this is a democracy. Okay, Well she's dead. I don't know how free she feels now after her daughter's deaths. She's quoted in the LA Times saying I am devastated, broken, grieving mother, but I am not second guessing or questioning my understanding of the issue. And again, she breastfed both her kids, and research shows that increases the risk of transmission up to fifth fifteen percent.

And it's like, why don't you write another book? I killed my daughter?

Yeah, but in the book she said she doesn't know how she became HIV positive. She has no idea, and she believes that you get it through flu shots and viral infections. Oh my god, And I just wonder how many people's lives she ruined because she started an organization called Alive and Well AIDS Alternatives, which was a nonprofit that had a website and a toll free hotline who helped HIV positive mothers who shun AIDS medication and want to breastfeed their children.

To do so.

God she suggests, Oh, don't tell anybody but trusted family, and only talk to doctors who will mirror your beliefs.

That's like advice.

Yeah, But like, if you don't believe you can give your kids the disease, then why fight. It's so hard to avoid the testing and we've obviously talked to This is like munchausen bi This is an issue. This is mental. This is mental because if you don't believe that can be transmitted, test your kid. Yeah, prove everyone wrong. Also, why gung ho to breastfeed? Like, I just don't get it. So overall, like there's few victories and AIDS is what I read, Like very few. You know, we're still struggling

Children under thirteen nationally that had AIDS.

But according to the CDC, we can't count these rogue parents, right right, So and then I checked on the National Institute of Health website and in twenty twenty one, only fifty three cases.

Were reported of children under thirteen.

Eight, So that's pretty h So all you have to do is take this AZT drug while pregnant and it lowers your chances of transferring to your baby to less than two percent. Like yeah, But once authorities settled on the cause of Eliza James's death, a focus then had to be turned onto the parents and their remaining child, Charlie. Charlie had tested negative for HIV three times, like, he kept not having HIV, so that so he was able

This is what I read.

So the LA Police did investigate whether Majori and Scoville were negligent in not testing the girl for HIV, but in two thousand and six, the La County DA's office decided not to file criminal charges, saying that it would have been difficult to prove criminal negligence because Majory had sought medical advice and it is clear in this case that the child welfare authorities had not been told about Majori's HIV positive status, and so like that her son

So their definition of good parent isn't it's like.

It's very all of her taft, you know, throw back to the Tom Scarett episode of SVU, where it's like, you can have a messy home and be a good parent, and you can have a clean home and be an awful parent. So like their definitions are based in biases of like class and stuff.

Yeah, and you.

Can tell while she's the worst, like she said she was sad after her child died, and then her health began to decline, and then she's quoted saying but with some herbs, walks and yoga, I feel a lot better.

Like that shouldn't help.

You feel better for yeah, killing your kid, but okay, And just weeks after her death, the parents made a website and in it they wrote, Eliza Jane had simply chosen to go home. Why our child, so appreciated, so held, so carefully nurtured, and not one ignored, abused or abandoned. How come what we offered was not enough to keep her here? When children with far less impatient, distracted parents, a small apartment on a busy street, extended daycare, oster Meyer lunchables will happily stay.

Kunt Oh my god.

So you think that someone that gives their kid a lunchable deserves their child to die more than you because they live in an apartment. Yeah, like she's a terrible person. Yeah, yeah, bad person. It's like whatever.

She died.

So she died in two thousand and eight at fifty two years old of pneumonia. I good and until her death, she was defianed until the end, and she no autopsy was done for her.

And then after she.

Died, the husband Scolville, there was a lawsuit and they did settle a lawsuit with the La County Coroner's office because they found a toxicologist who served on an advisory group of their organizational Live and Well Aids alternatives to say that she died from an allergic reaction to the antibiotic, but the terms of the lawsuit were not disclosed.

In any court documents, and so these.

Fucking grifters got to get away with money from the county after all, Oh my god, because.

They found another toxicologist. Now this case is crazy, this next one. And I apologize. I feel like my information is kind of scattered because this is all like this is in China state run media.

It's translating. I'm like trying to read all these.

Things, and I don't know, but it's it just seemed in It seemed like something our listeners would like. Okay, So this is the case of Who Wanlin. And this guy is like China's doctor death. He's a self described healer who is linked to more than one hundred and forty deaths in the nineteen nineties. In two thousand, he was in prison for illegally practicing medicine for fifteen years. He claimed to possess mysterious forces and that's how he.

Treated his patient.

So the traditional practice is called quigong or qui. For sure, I'm probably saying it wrong, but it had revivals in China after the death of Mao Zedong, and there's just like an influx of cults and weird beliefs in this kind of traditional practice came back and this doctor who believes water causes disease and patients needed to be dehydrated with magic medicine using powerful salts from and this is from the Global Times and then Britten in the Guardian.

That's what I mean. There's just a lot of yeah, moving pieces.

Thousands of people flocked to him to receive this miracle water remedy that had high levels of sodium sulfate. And so this guy is like a Catholic priest though, so anytime his operations were closed down, he was moved. So he was in shank Shandhi Province and then he went and got a license to practice in Henan Province. So like, he just kept moving around after killing people. And even though linked to the desks, they have never been proven.

I'm so confused. If anyone listens.

From China, please help us. It also says in nineteen ninety three, while in prison, he opened a medical practice where he worked and did stuff whatever. So then's he's released early in twenty eleven after a term reduction and he was back to it two years later he was arrested for killing a twenty two year old college graduate

And it's a cathartic and diuretic. Wow. Yeah, And he.

Was taken into custody and heenan province after police suspected you know, this was another herbal broth poisoning from this motherfucker. And then another patient, Nongmnguang, became unconscious after taking Who's concoction,

But that's like he's out in five We got to watch out. This guy's going to get out in five years.

So what I found was he was in jail in nineteen seventy four, then again in nineteen eighty for murder, then again in nineteen eighty six, then again in two thousand, then again in twenty thirteen.

Like what crazy? So it's just amount of quack. I don't know.

Okay, this case does not connect at all. But this woman's mugshots were so scary and haunting. I legit didn't want to look at her pictures, Like I had to scroll fast away, like I you.

Know, I'm googling.

Yeah, she is so scary, and I feel like I have to touch on it because we're all freaks.

Okay, look at her. How do you feel do you feel like she might this old timey lady? Yeah? Oh yeah, she's haunted. Yeah, yeah, scary.

So legit, I was like I couldn't even look at the picture. But I got most of this in the Smithsonian magazine, and it said that she And then while I was reading it, it said that she was into the occult and had strange abilities, and perhaps she was hypnotizing people into starving themselves to death. So there was a reason I didn't want to look at her eyes in that photo.

Oh my god.

And then I fucking read she's in the occult, like this bitch's powers through death. So her name is Linda Hazard, and she was a quote unquote doctor who starved her patients to death. So she killed as many as a dozen people. I don't know why I laughed. So she killed as many as a dozen people in the early twentieth century, and they paid for it willingly.

And this happened.

O La la Ola, let's say it Olalla Washington. I feel like you'll know. It's one of these islands next to Seattle.

Okay, wait, where is it? I'm looking. Oh, I think it's also a brand.

I think, yeah, I think it's also like a brand of granola bar Botta Wala.

Oh yeah.

So it's like a little town fairy ride across from Seattle. And she had very little formal training, no medical degree, but she was licensed by the state of Washington as a fasting specialist. And I guess for feminism, that's cool as a woman to get certification.

Okay, let's give her her flowers.

But Black Ceiling did think that the root of all evil lay in food, specifically too much of it. And she wrote a book she's self published, and once a book self published, I can't trust it in nineteen oh eight, and she says that fasting for the cure of disease, like fasting is the only thing. And she would feed her victims only vegetable broth made from canned tomatoes twice

Oh my god, oh like yeah.

And then she had these she got these two clients that were Uppercross sisters, and they came and the doctor had been appointed the executor of one of their estates, and then, like the sisters, basically signed away their power of attorney. And this woman became guardian of life for these women. And then you find out all of her little victims were rich people that she starved to death, while while in their starving state, slowly took away their estates and money.

Oh my god.

So with these sisters, like she found like she was found with jewels, she took thousands of dollars, clothing, like all of this stuff, wile starving and enemying them to death. And then family members of the sisters started digging and they found out this Hazard lady was connected to the deaths of several other wealthy individuals. And yeah, rich people get tricked. This is this is like the botox of its time. Really, you know, like I'm going to starve

Hazard believe that's like the people.

I mean, we haven't really grown as a culture, because that's what people with COVID were like, Oh, well, you were unhealthy anyways, you would have died you know that was Yeah, definitely the vibe of like, well, then don't be obese or have diabetes or something.

I actually walked by the pool in my neighborhood and there's a bench for my parents' friends that were the first and like they like died immediately on COVID, like hours apart from each other. We visited the bench. Okay, so Hazard believed the time was an attack on her. Okay, so while she was getting arrested, she believed that this was an attack on her position as a successful woman and a battle between conventional medicine and more a more

Yeah, I know that one's a hard one for me and wha Laeah Washington. But then, for reasons unknown, the governor pardoned her. Oh she's a witch. I'm like scared she's gonna hat me for just looking on a phone. She they should do this on Wicked Words or like whatever. The podcast isn't exactly right where they do old timey crime. Maybe they already have who knows, she's served two years,

Oh my gosh, people with the last named Flice cannot catch a break.

So he was unconventional, duh. And he's a pediatrician in Los Phelis. And sorry, that's just buy it. Yeah, that's like ten minutes for me. I like looked at Kara like she hired him.

I'm like, my kids go there?

Yeah, who to the La Times is quoted talking about Eliza Jane's death and he wrote, I don't understand it because I've never seen her sick or with anything resembling what she supposedly died of. I don't believe I could have done anything to change this outcome. He is the reason that DCFS found no evidence of neglect.

Like it was him that was.

Reassuring the reports. He is quoted in the official reports.

Yeah, like he signed the death certificate, probably the way that this guy did in the episode.

Oh my God.

He knew that the mom had HIV and that she rested her kids everything. And he is the one that earlier quoted about the democracy. And he's a trained pharmacist in osteopath. But then the law was passed in the early nineteen sixties in California that allowed osteopaths to convert to an MD degree. And I know there's a lot of controversy with dos and mds and I don't really know.

I'm not getting involved now.

If you're thinking, wow, Flice, you know, Kara, you meant something familiar, right.

He is the father of the Hollywood Madam Heidi Fly shut the fuck up. I was totally like.

Oh wow, weird to many bad people with the last name Flights. Not that she's bad for being a madam, I feel like she was a shady lady.

Oh yeah, so how crazy is I did bury the lead a little bit, but oh that is his daughter. And in May of nineteen ninety five, he pled guilty to helping his daughter launder hundreds of thousands of dollars to hide the income from her prostitution ring. Oh my gosh, yeah the agreement At the time, this guy was sixty one years old. He pled guilty to federal conspiracy and bank fraud charges, and for over three years, doctor Fly slied on loan applications and falsely claimed his daughter was

Help her rent an apartment.

Don't buy her a mansion to run a full ring, crazy quack.

So the max that he was looking at was ten months in prison, a halfway house or a home detention, A possible fine, but what he did get was one day in prison, three years probation, six hundred and twenty five hours of community service, and a fifty thousand dollars fine. He died at the age of eighty and July twenty fourteen, and he worked right up until his death. He made house calls, devoted patients. I think Madonna's kid went to him.

Oh my god. Nothing.

He worked in LA for decades up until his recent death in twenty fourteen.

Holy shit. Yeah, that's fucking crazy. I'm blown away. Yeah. Oh yes.

Buried Bones is the podcast I meant to say. Buried Bones is the podcast on this network that where they do talk about older, older crimes. Damn, Lisa, thank you for doing all that research on four different crimes.

Essentially appreciate it, but all of them are just like is this real? Is this not?

And are these mystics gonna come haunt me? Like I am scared of who? And I am scared of miss Hazard, Like I do not like looking at their faces.

She looks like a lady that's like not gonna let you eat for sure.

Oh my god, it's scary, scary, Oh my god.

Also, there was a ample Hills Creamery opened in the old office of Paul Flice in Los Feelies. So if you ever were in Los Feels, an away the ample Hills Creamery that used to be his office.

But now it's a Mexican restaurant, right it is. I don't know what it is now. I just ate there.

No, I just eight at his Oh my god, it's like a beautiful, like craftsman house type of thing. Yeah, it's now called Tacos to Madre And I just went there like three months ago.

Wow, I've eaten at the doctor's old how And.

Not to like connect it, but like, okay, Eliza Jane's mom she made an annual salary of like fifteen million dollars. She was really hot, like she had a fashion line or worked in fashion or whatever. The Hazard Lady preyed upon the rich. This guy in La seeing rich clients, like there is something about oh I did chasing holistic shit, like chasing wild stuff that other people can't afford.

And I don't know what doctor.

Who's being like and being like regular medicine doesn't apply to me, like regular rule, Like I'm above other people. Yeah, Like that's an interesting detail about her because that's not what I was imagining.

That she was very loaded.

Yeah, she was very loaded. She was a rich woman. Yeah, they were all well like all.

Of these.

I just think that, like, especially right now, there's such an emphasis on wellness, like we're such a wellness culture. But it's yeah, it's all a bunch of quacks. And like I used to really love this one fitness influencer, and now when I see clips of her podcasts, it's like every week it's this is toxic.

That's toxic. The plastic you can't do And I'm like, what can you do?

Yeah, like at a certain point, you are limiting your life, Like I don't know, it's wild.

Yeah really, And it's sad. I'm sad for these kids. I'm sad for these kids.

I mean, we always deal with kids and abuse and it's just fucking sad. We need to fight for more kids an autonomy.

Well, yeah, there needs to be checks and balances. Just because you have a child doesn't mean you get to just say what is science, like what is right and wrong? Like of course you have certain jurisdiction over your child, but like you can't. I don't know people that are just like, yeah, we just like I don't believe in medicine, so by you have to die now, Like I don't know, I can't handle that all right, And we do not have a guest today, so let's move right into our post mortem.

I mean, this episode is so wild.

I just like it truly reminds you that there is a denialism community for almost everything, Like there is probably a community that's like the flu is not real. The flu is like your body's energy, you know, just collapsing in on itself and you just need to like wear a crystal in your pocket.

Like I don't know the fact that.

There were people that just don't think AIDS is real, I should believe it because I know there's other wild denialism communities.

Must come out of like arrogance, right, I don't know, Like I I just don't like people think they are Galileo, you know what I mean?

Yea, Like they are.

The ones that know about how the planets are moving, like, and that's that is what they are feeling. Because it's like you have all of these doctors, scientists, people that know what they're talking about are saying this thing and you say, no, it's it's not that, like that's arrogance.

I don't know. Yeah, yeah, because I don't know.

I just but I also B D Wong hosted that show Something Is Killing Me, where it's like something is killing someone and they keep going to doctors and no one is helping them. So it's like, I understand having like issues a doctor, yeah, but it's like a whole medical commun I don't know.

I just but I don't want to trust the government either.

I mean, it's all very complicated, but it's your your kid died, like the crime. It's like, at what point does your opinion and thought about something not as important like your kid's life should be more.

Important, right, And I guess it's like you could. I mean, I don't know.

It's like it's like you can google anything on the internet and find the answer that you want. So when people are like, oh, I've done my own research, I'm like, oh, I don't know. I don't have the time to like fully get a medical degree in anything.

So I trust a.

Doctor if I think the doctor is being a little bit there's certainly. I've met doctors I don't like, and I'm kind of like, I don't think your opinion is like, so you go to someone else, like you you know, I would try various people, maybe check some message boards and see what people are saying, but like, I don't know, use your common sense.

It's like your daughter is dying. I don't know. It's it's so.

Well And this, obviously the denialism reminds me of like, you know, Trump cult. Yeah, I and like religion and stuff, but I just saw a video and it was amazing. They were like, hey, if you told someone you really really loved them, but if they did something wrong that you would burn them?

Is that?

And they're like, no, that's not real love. So they're like, so God in hell is bad, right? And the guy goes nope and like leaves. You know, if you've ever seen someone get questioned about God, there's like another clip that always shows up to me where he's like God, you know all about anti abortion stuff, and he goes, didn't God can all the first born sons?

Wasn't that? Yeah?

And the guy goes, I'm done talking now, and they like leave. It's like they I don't I don't know. Yeah, I just feel like I've had to change my mind and opinions often, and I've been wrong all the time, right, and.

So I and it's tough.

I am not saying it's like not tough to be like, oh fuck, I'm an idiot, or like I was wrong all this time, Like I get that, but I'm I'm happy I have the capacity because I would hate to be that embarrassing on the internet.

Yeah, No, I am the same.

I'm always like, well, famously, I believed this for a really long time until I found out this, you know, like, I feel like I'm pretty open about changing my mind on stuff because the people that are just have had the same beliefs for so long and now they're so old that they're like, I can't even defend this. I

Yeah, it's just like you're being proven wrong to your face.

Yeah, I know.

I'm out. I'm out. And it's like, yeah, no, hell is crazy.

You can't say God is all loving and forgiving and then have hell. Like yeah, I actually never even thought about that. Like that clip really appealed to me. I go, oh, that's a good one. I'm like, that is a good one.

But I don't know, but I know.

Is there their excuse, like, oh, but hell is where you go if you don't ask for the Lord's forgiveness and you don't ask for the Lord to like take you back like or whatever.

Like is that what they would say. I don't know.

They say lots of thing. I just belief systems are wild. I don't really know, like I am trying to. I just have never been a really religious person. No, it's hard for me to like, I don't know, I have no idea. But my dad is a synagogue now. But I think once you hit your eighties, you gotta you gotta make amends.

Yeah, time is ticking, Dade, Time is a ticken.

Speaking of doctors, Colin just sent me a text that said, the way Lisa is pronouncing giland Barr on your podcast, which is some disorder. You've pronounced Goulan bear, Gillian bear, Julian. He goes, it's really sending me yes, And I have no idea, I have no idea how you actually say it, but that this just in, This just in from my brother Colin.

Yeah, but wait, it's medical. Oh Reagan fucking Agan fuck rage.

Well, because that's what it all is.

Like sixties and seventies were like free love, let's be fun and gay and awesome, and then eighties it was like, oh yeah, let's let these people fucking die. Yeah, and it's and I feel like we're in that time again where we're just went backwards where there was growth and now it's they just don't want it. Now we're getting the commandments and hung in schools. It's like it's wild to me.

And the thing is is like, look at HIV and AIDS and how far we have come, Like it is not a death sentence anymore. Like medicine has actually prepped and people and prep and people are living long lives and it's not a death sentence anymore because of science and the opposite of AIDS denilism. So it's really I just I don't know what you even. It's you know, you can't talk to people that are like the sky's purple, so but.

No, and you know what I do have to I'm sorry, but did you see Travis surprise Taylor and then Taylor getting excited when Travis flew to Dublin?

Okay, sorry I didn't see it, but I hear she's cute.

I heard she got stuck on a platform that that did happen too. I'm really proud of you a scroll.

I saw there's been a lot of technical issues, and of course the Wild Swifties are like, that's a glitch and it's because of a reputation and it's coming out.

And it's like, let this bitch just like finish her to hour in peace.

But also they one of my mom friends.

But it's her singing and he flew in mid concert and like you could just see them being really really cute. But he flew back to la for a friend's wedding and then back to Ireland. So honestly, it's fun being rich and in love.

Yeah, it's nice to watch.

A mom. Friend just texted me and so there's a Tailor Swift cover band playing somewhere nearby and that we might look into going with the kids.

You should.

There's a Taylor Swift dance Parties sing along on my birthday in New York.

Oh, I will be gone, but we'll we'll figure something out.

I don't know if I'm gonna do it or not, but yeah, because I just I don't know. I also just want to wait till the concert, and really, yeah, go to the feeling. I don't think this singal on is going to really even pay. I mean, definitely go to the sing along first, because once you go to the concert, the sing along is not going to mean anything new.

We're all trying to recreate it again and again. Who knows. Well, let's get into our what would Sister peg do?

Our weekly segment where we direct you towards an organization, article, book, something that gives you info about what we talked about today. And we wanted to point you today to the Elizabeth Glazer Pediatric AIDS Foundation, where a friend of mine has worked four years. They are the leading global nonprofit organization dedicated to preventing pediatric HIV infection and eliminating pediatric AIDS

And I'm so sorry to jump back into this, but Disney did eventually sue the company that did make The Jungle King and other such movies, of course, so but not before you got your hot little hands on it, you know, because I'm looking at the other ones and they're all like so, but the cease to exists, the license whatever. But I don't know how the lawsuit worked out, but Disney did sue, okay, And next week, you know, from AIDS to Jungle King to Next week we will

It feels like watching a little mini movie. I think you guys gotta watch it. But we'll see you guys next week. Thank you so much for all your love and support, and have a great rest of your summer week and we'll see you next week.

That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

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And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner. And to Henrika Perski for our theme song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff, Daniel Kramer and everybody at Exactly Right Media, Dun Dun