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Done done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up, your favorite Law and Order SVU podcast.
I'm Kara and I'm.
Liza, and we talk SVIE crime, We talked to celebs. It's really a podcast that has everything. I'm back from my fantastic week alass week. But I mean, I actually just saw something terrible on the internet. I don't even know if I want to talk about it, but that the fucking White House posted like people getting arrested and deported and made it an ASMR video. They're like lol ASMR and it's like people getting shackled, searched and put on a plane.
Oh my god.
Yeah, And I went to make sure it wasn't fake or AI because it's like, are you like, I mean, every none of it is real, But it's like.
What the fuck?
Yeah, the course is so long gone, We're so long gone. Yeah, the cruelty is part of it. It's the point, you know, like it's fucked. We're gonna do I just like, but we can't heavily drink because we can't handle it anymore.
I mean, I don't know what, you know.
I it's like when you were when you were not feeling good last week, Like it just reminds me of the time that we went out one of like the first nights that I feel like we were all going out like after COVID and I. You just kept buying shots and I just kept being like, gotta drink these shots, gotta keep up. And then our friend that we were with later told me that she was throwing all the shots and I was like, we were like, I was like, I I threw up and I felt like asked.
But I'm also mad that our friend couldn't just be like.
For me, I know, I see, you know, I can't see that kind of waste of money, Like I had to take them. I was like, I'm not she bought them. I'm not gonna like not take them. But anyway, Uh, yeah, it's kind of the darkest thing I've ever seen.
Yeah. Fuck, I don't know.
I don't know what our uh, I don't know what our recourse is right now, but I know a lot of you are feeling the same way as US so.
And then it's like the articles are like sparks backlash, Oh my god, and it's like, no, it's not bad. This is like the people that like it like it. I don't know, it's not Yeah, who cares about backlas? Like, I don't know, it's just backlash is so minimal and stupid, Like why would you write about that? There's no backlas, Like nothing's gonna happen, there's no checks and balances.
I know, there's like a thing because like I saw some tweet about impeachment and I was like, can we even do We can't even do that.
We can't do it, but we need to.
We'll just we need to take the midterms in two years, so hopefully we're working on that. I don't know really who's in fucking charge anywhere, though. I don't think we're gonna get there. I think once putin and try, I mean, we can't. Let's just talk about sn L fiftieth.
I don't know. I know Hunger Games, we're in the Hunger Well.
I have literally have it saved on my DVR, but haven't had a chance to watch it yet. It's like so long, but I've obviously been checking in on the clips.
It's so cool. It's so fun.
Like I have a couple of friends that were there, and I'm like, I can't wait for you to tell me about it.
Like I just think it's like cool. Like I don't know.
Some people hate SNL. My husband doesn't like SNL. I love it. I watch every week. I record every episode and watch it, and I think it's fun to see all these people come back and like get into these old characters and do that shit, and to also just talk about like the little behind the lines, yeah, and the behind the scenes of like how they came up with shit, and like I like that.
I think it's so funny.
But what were your I mean, I was watching some clips of like Meryl Street playing Kate McKinnon, you know that the pervert that always gets like abducted.
That was making me laugh. You know. That was her SNL debut. She's never hosted.
Wait what, that's nothing. You've never had Meryl Streep because she seems very fun.
I don't think she wants to.
I think kind of the smart and short thing has really brought a new side of Meryll out.
Yeah, I'm really.
Into them kind of out and about being silly.
Me too.
I'm loving that and I'm excited by their their relationship. I really like the way Drew Barrymore looked. I didn't watch it. I've just been looking at all the like clips and fun stuff and like, I'm just in a Bravo haes. Like I said, I slimly watched White Lotus yet, but I did watch Yellow Jackets. I did watch the two the premiere episodes of Yellow Jackets.
Oh it was two because I started one. I'm halfway through the first one. Yeah, there's two, but I didn't know it was too you know. I had to fucking upgrade to Paramount Plus. It changed my whole I had to get Paramount plus showtime. I changed my whole billing cycle. I got like a partial refund. It was crazy, but really quickly back to Merrill. A little bit of fun local interesting information for you. Was I think I've mentioned before I've been to an event, a children's party event,
where Meryl Streep was present. I went to that same event this year. She was at SNL fifty, so she was not there, but I did. I did speak to her son, who is buying the york A bar that we used to go to all the time when you lived in La and turning.
It into part venue, part bar.
And I was like, you gotta let me help you find a good comedian to run a good comedy show there, and he was like, totally. So I'm gonna try to get some comedy going at the York when.
It's because they're in room, it's not that bit or outside the other side.
Gonna they'll do it. I think they're gonna like trash the like bar in the center.
Like I think they're gonna do like a bifurcated like spot and change the whole like layout.
But I don't know. It's not gonna be ready for a while. He's like, probably not till next year or something.
But I'm exciting because I will say I love that place and I used to go there all the time pre pandemic, but they have the quality has to Last time I went there, it felt like the heat was off and we were just.
Not only that, but it's like change the menu.
It's been years, like again having a few staple items like have your Caesar, but like all right, like just nothing ever changed or was that good And it's a lot of good memories, but that's it. Like, yeah, the York, Yeah, but I guess it's gonna be a venue yeah across from the Goldfish.
A real war.
Totally, and like there's all kinds of wars because Belle's is a bar. Now, I mean, this is we're just talking local now, We're just talking local commerce in Liza's old neighborhood in my current but listen back to SNL fifty.
I was a little bit surprised that Ryan Reynolds made that little joke. Yeah, I don't know.
I someone was just like, I don't know if my wife was a sexually assaulted at work, I don't know if I'd be making little jokes about it.
That's what I mean. That's what I mean.
This is a multimillion dollar lawsuit that could destroy her career, the other guy's career, whatever. And like, well, Bethany, I watched a Bethany TikTok.
I watched Bethany.
Bethany is Bethany has a magnifying glass up to her eye and is like a private eye for this fucking case.
She's talks about it so much I don't even follow her.
She like pops up in my for you page being like and another thing about bal Downy, like.
You know, she's like always in it.
She says, it's like everyone that's a who's who in Hollywood was there. So to them, it's not it's about solidifying like these people like me, like I'm in with this crowd like these because if all these people are okay with me, then everyone's okay with me. So it's that and I need to make a joke so that everybody's positive. I was there and it's like a full yeah, wow, I guess. And then Bill Hayter wasn't there. No, Stefan, Bill Hayter wasn't there. Oh, I was really looking forward to us.
I said.
It was like scheduling, but it's like, no, it's on a weekend. I feel like he didn't want to.
Go interesting, interesting, Interesting.
He did a pre taped thing, but I heard I once said he's like he didn't love his time there, but.
Still seems like some of you would. I was.
I think I've told this before, but I was working at SNL when he did his first show and it was him and Andy Samberg and I met them at the after after party and they were both like, how do you guys.
Think it went?
We were like, you guys were great, Like we were like the Pages and we were like hyping them up, you know, because we didn't know that they were going to go on to become like two of like the big ones, you know, and we were just like, you guys were awesome.
And I think Bill Hater made out with one of my friends.
Yeah, so what did you guys do in between when everyone went to the after, like to the after after all?
What would you do to kill time?
You've been to SNL, so you've probably seen the Pages are in their uniforms and they now they wear Brooks Brothers cute gray uniforms.
We wore navy.
Dresses from Casual Corner with navy tights and navy shoes and a navy blazer and our little pins and like we called them our blues.
Like that was like you had to get in your blues.
So we would go to someone's apartment, get out of our blues, get into our tube tops and like whatever and start pregaming because you had to like start drinking because the show gets over at one. By the time you're done whatever, you're getting to someone's house at two, But like the after after is not really getting rocking into like three p thirty, so like we would be like we got to go like get catch up and and and be also not spent.
We were making ten dollars an hour.
We don't want to spend a ton of money at like you know the bar, so and listen were the bars open bar?
I don't remember.
I would assume they would have been open bar, but maybe not for us randoms. But you always had to have a password. You'd have a password to go get into the after after, and like whoever was the SNL page would find out because we were there'd be like three dedicated SNL pages, like I was the cone In dedicated page, and then there'd be three SNL dedicated pages and then the rest of us.
Just worked the show.
So the main pages would like tell us like here's where it is, here's where you go. And I absolutely requested all I want for Christmas is you in April at a couple of those parties, you know, so we made our mark.
Uh, but yeah, it's it's fun.
Like I had a blast, like to be able to even stand in the studio. One time Jeff Zucker tapped me on this on the shoulder and goes, how did this do it at dress? This sketch and I go, great, Like, what am I going to tattle on us and tell you that the sketch bombed a dress like I was like, Oh, it was great.
It was so funny. I don't know who that is.
He was thee he was the CEO of NBC and NBCUniversal. He was like the headhead like so I was like that, and then he went on to start to see it and then he went on to run CNN and now I think I don't know, he's maybe been canceled. I don't really know what's going on with him. But yeah, my time at SNL was so fun. But I was just a little worker bee and I can't Yeah, I'm excited to watch the long show. And the clips I've seen were fun and it seemed like a fun at first.
I was like, so it kicked off with like a music thing.
Well, Friday was the concert and this Sunday was like the big thing.
Okay, got it, got it?
But I think Miley and Brittany Howard still performed at on the Sunday Show.
Who's Brittany Howard from Alabama? Sheikhs? Oh cool?
And then Aubrey Plaza introduced them, and it's been her first sighting since the tragedy.
Yeah, I saw that. I saw that. Oh my gosh, I made it.
But I thought the lobster thing is like the John Mulaney Pete Davidson, like the lobster and the diner.
Okay.
I there was like a giant one of that where I think, like, you know, just the celebrity parade. I did see a thing about celebs where like it used to be not cool to sell out, like you'd be like, eh, you fucking sell out, and then it stopped and I was like, oh great, everyone's making their money, and now it's like can people have some shame, Like I mean, fucking losers?
The super Bowl it's.
Just celeb commercial after celebcri It's just.
Like it's it's awesome change. It's also like half the time taking jobs from like people that like just want to get a cast in a commercial that's like, oh they decided to cast like a super celebrity instead, you know, and no annoying. It's crazy because who do you remember being the first? Like I this isn't definitely like the first, but I remember being like, why is Catherine's data Jones
doing tmobile commercials. Like I remember being like she is so famous and she is like a singer and a dancer and this like respected actress, Like why is she like do do do?
Do do? Like why is she doing a T mobile commercial?
And then you know, I guess if it's like a quick days of work for a few million dollars, why not. But it's just like, I don't know, there just used to be a thing of like not wanting to be a sellout, and now there's totally it's not even a hint of that. It's like everything is just an ad and something is someone's trying to sell you something. They all want to start a business, yeah, right ahead of food book.
I don't know. It's just like blame yeah, And it.
Seems like it seemed like, yeah, because did you did you sort of think of this because maybe Meryl Streep thought like it would be kind of selling out to go on SNL when she was like a really respected actress back in the day, or like she was so serious.
Maybe No, I was thinking of it in terms of like it was just celeb central, the SNL thing, and then I was just thinking about the super Bowl, and then I was just thinking about like this thing I saw about how it used to like not be cool.
Yeah yeah, but then I was happy.
I remember seeing like Amy polar and commercials being like, hell yeah, I'm loving that Amy Pohlar is making money. I remember thinking that, and now I'm just like eight celebrities in this duncan Ad Bill Belichick's Teen Bride, Like I just don't.
Well that, like ooh, yuck.
That gives me a bad feeling, that whole thing.
But that's what I thought about it. No, Meryll.
There was like a list I read of like people surprisingly like Leonardo DiCaprio's Never Hosted. I also think it's like a vulnerable, crazy thing. But Meryl would of course kill it. I don't know why some people just have never or maybe because their movies are serious, like Hi, and I'm in The Iron Lady, you know, like.
I know, but it's like at the same growing up, growing up, she was in like Postcards from the Edge, she was in She Devil, one of my favorite movies of all time, so funny like she was in Death Becomes Her like all these great comedy roles like that.
It's like, why, okay, forty celebrity shockingly never hosted, Marishka Hargate being one of them, Christian Bale, Kate Blanchette, Sandra Bullock. I think that's pretty shocking to me. Yeah, Viola Davis, Leonardo DiCaprio, Morgan Freeman, Angelina, Julie, Jessica Lang. I mean, I wouldn't imagine Jessica Lang. I'm not surprised, No, she's not, but she would kill She would do an al Pacino Brad Pitt, although he did make an Emmy nominated appearance in twenty twenty, so I don't know what that is.
Julia Roberts, that's shocking. I can't believe in the nineties she wouldn't have done it. Meryl she Downzel Washington, Yeah, weird. I don't think Christian Bale should do it. He's angry. But Sandra Bullock and Robert's not doing it is like pretty shocking to me because they're also America's sweethearts. Like they are good actresses, but they're America's sweetheart vibes like right and doing comedies and like charming, like we love them. Why wouldn't they do it?
I don't know.
Like Sandra Bullock is very funny, Yeah, it's such a cool history.
It really is like whatever they I mean, I just wish like an old out of touch man didn't have Elon Musk and fucking Trump post and like.
I do too, I really like I listen to this so outdated. I listened to this like podcast one time and I feel really oh it was like a Malcolm Glodwell, which whatever.
People have mixed feelings about him, but he did.
This podcast about like this episode of his podcast about like satire and how like satire in the United States has like lost its teeth because we used to make fun of things to like call them out, and now instead of we make we'll make fun of Sarah Palin, but then we'll invite her to be on the show, or like we'll make fun of Donald Trump and then invite him to be on the show. And it's like, so you're not actually calling out anybody because you're inviting
them in. Like the teeth is out of the satire and so like, I am super disappointed that they had Elon Musk and Donald Trump on, you know, like I think that sucks, but whatever, everybody makes mistakes.
I do also think that the rumor is he's going to step down now that the fiftieth. After we pass the fiftieth.
Lauren, fuck yeah, And the two people I've heard bandied about are Seth and Tina, so we'll see.
Well.
Yeah, though I feel like those are obviouss me but I.
But somebody was telling me they were like the thing is is like Lauren's the one that gets all the money for that show. Like there he kind of like swings his dick around and gets like a bunch of money for like these digital shorts and all this big production and like whatever, and that they don't know that without him, the network will like keep giving it the same amount of money.
But I don't know.
I don't think he's like give it to anyone. I think he's going to die there. I think he's a psychopath. I think he likes what he's creating. He's eighty, so it's fine. But it's like I just don't think he's gonna act normal or make a normal decision. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, interesting though I'm interested. Dan Akroyd also wasn't there. Oh yeah.
I loved Lorraine Newman and Jane Curtin holding up Gilda's picture.
That was so sweet. That was very sweet.
I was hanging out with Devin Walker right after it, and I was like asking, he goes, you seem to know more about what happened than I do. I go, I've been watching everything on the internet. I've been looking at everything, every outfit.
He's like, you crazy.
It was like, yeah, it's interesting, and it was taking over our feeds for like the whole weekend.
I mean I saw like nothing else but that, Like, oh, Sarah Sherman was dressed so nice. And then everyone's listening to this three weeks later. We've already like our country will be nuclearly bombed by the time this comes out.
And people will be like just cooking dinner at the camps listening to your podcast.
I just can't believe we're living this life of like joy and terror and frozen.
This I don't know.
Yeah, oh but our next intro, we'll be able to talk about Luigi's trials, so.
Oh yes, it's that yes, And I will have watched I will be caught up on drug Race by then. I've got a lot to catch up on. Also, I'm going to New York next week. I'm gonna be God, I'm gonna have my laptop. I'm gonna have a TV and I'm gonna have no kids, so I'm catching up on a lot of shit.
I'm excited.
That's those are your big New York plan, Those are my big New York plans.
I'm like, i gotta catch up on all my shit, like drag Race White Lights.
Are you gonna see Connecticut people or just New York people.
I'm gonna go see my parents on the drive up to New Hampshire. I'm gonna stop in and just give them a quick high. But I don't think I'm gonna see like my brother or anybody else in Connecticut. Yeah, I'm gonna be in the city most of the time. But I'm excited. I mean, it is gonna be February in New York, so I am nervous, but I'm excited to be back because I New York.
I love New York.
But yeah, should we get started. We've got a great episode for today. As always, go to That's Messed Up Live dot com. You can buy some merch you can check out Lisa's tour dates, follow us, rate us reviews.
Whatever you gotta do.
But That's Messed Up Live dot com has all the links that you need in your life. Also, promo codes for all of our ads. If you're interested in getting a little deal. I'm seeing me live, I'm on the road. Yeah, yeah, that's on there too, all Lisa's dates go check her out and uh and that's it.
Yeah, let's get started.
So we are doing Redemption season three, episode six.
Wow, fresh off nine to eleven November.
It is the hallmark of our podcast that we always put ourselves in time in relation to nine.
To eleven November. Second. That's yeah, we're not even two months out.
I wonder when they came back, Like they are crazy, they don't really rest, but I think everyone rested for a while.
I mean, I don't know. I wasn't there. Yeah.
There was also the thing where the Twin Towers were in the opening credits, and I think they had to like remove them, unlike me and my college dorm room, where I had just put up a full wallpaper of the New York City skyline featuring the Twin Towers and it stayed up for my entire senior year of college. So we said, the Twin Towers are still standing strong in high Rise, which was the name of my dorm.
But people were like scared when they saw them. Right, Yeah, everybody would walk in and go whoa.
But they did think it looked cool, like it was a cool wallpaper we found at home.
Depot.
Okay, redemption, redemption. We're in court and Stablers on the sand. He's being asked about stating under oath that he tested everyone that had any personal contact with Leslie Bellow, and you know, he's like correct, But then they're like, well, he didn't test the teacher or the bus driver, the plumber, so in fact, you didn't test everyone that came in contact with her. And he's like, well, Leslie didn't identify the plumber as her rapist, so and the lawyers like,
well eight year olds Lie. So then Cabot has an objection, and she does stand. They don't always stand, Did I always have to stand?
Barbara like leans back during his objections, Like I think it's like a different I think it's.
A style thing.
Like she stands, Casey, I think sometimes stands. Barba's like objection, you're on her leading, you know, like Barba's drinking an espresso while he's doing it, Like, but yeah, she stands.
He withdraws though, and goes and sits down. Cabot redirects and says whom did Leslie below identify as her rapists? And Stabler says her grandfather Frederick Bellow dramatic music. Sabler walks out of court and Leslie's in the hallway. She's holding a bear. This bear has a purple outfit and the mom's there. She's scared, but he's gonna pump He's pumping her up that like she's gonna do a good job on stand. She's very scared, but Sablor knows that
she can do it. She hands her stuff to bear over to him, Wow huge and goes into the courtroom. Sabler says he can't be in there, but that they're always in there.
I know, I don't know why. He's like I can't. He's like, I gotta go. I suddenly have to be there for my own kids. Like I don't know why he has to leave. He's always in lives, always in there, like with the victims.
I know.
So that's a little confusing to me.
So also, like this fucking guy, I'm just saying, like I know, this isn't even like the main part of the episode, but like you're a man who has uh sexually assaulted your own granddaughter, like you obviously and you've been caught and now you're putting her through a trial. It's like double monstrosity, do you know what I mean? Like if you were just like, oh my god, I'm a monster. I've been doing this in secret. I'm sick. Okay.
But he's like, nope, take me to trial. I want to prove that she's a liar in front, like fucking nuts.
This is nuts. Now, you know.
We cut the stabler walking into the precincts. He doesn't talk to anybody, and Benson's like, how did it go? And we could tell by the body language not good? Okay yea, and he goes They let him walk. That's crazy. If he had the STD that his granddaughter had, I don't know what more evidence that jury really needed.
Right, And she's telling you she's eight, Like that's eight year olds?
No, what's up? Yeah? They both have gone rha in the house like I just fuck that jury. Yeah.
He pushes all the coffee cups to the ground and says the whole system is screwed up and runs off. But the city never sleeps, so they have to go to another crime scene. A UNI breaks it down at a no Hoo apartment so to rape homicide Jennifer Walton twenty five. Her friend discovered her after the landlady let her in. There's a whole punch through the bedroom door, and then we see her in the bed. It's bloody, hands bound behind her back with panty hose. They use
panty hose a lot in the beginning seasons. Yes, every woman has panty hose. They're always lying around, Hi, They're always being used to tie people up. Yeah, they do.
And then face pummeled throats.
Slick Finn finds a white rose and Munch says, oh, a romantic psycho sailors in the corner, going damn. I thought my day couldn't get any worse. Always about him. But we go right into the credits and we're still at the crime scene. We're talking to the neighbors who's holding a fluffy white dog and she's saying how she would watch the victim's dog. When she went away last month for the weekend with a man named David. They
were friendly, she says, she saw him sometimes. He was tall, graying hair, brought her flowers all different types, and she heard them fighting.
Last night.
She was yelling something about trying like her, trying to ruin his life. She feels bad for not checking in on her. Now they go to the friend who found her and she's holding the victims dog. It's a King Charles guy, were King Charles Spaniel spaniel.
There we go.
Cute, cute dog and they they were gonna meet for drinks at nine, but eight thirty she called, saying she's gonna be late, and she did. Hear a man's voice in the background, sailor's being a dick as this girl is crying, she's flustered, and he's being snied and sarcastic to her, and he goes, oh, is there anything you're sure about? Benson's watching him be a dick from afar. She calls him, you know, She's like, all right, come over here. She says that it looks like the victim
was entertaining. There's wine glasses. It seems like the first blow happened at the on the couch and then was dragged into the bedroom. No sign of a struggle, but so that means the first blow really knocked her out and like stunned her. Melinda chimes in that she thinks the purp was left handed. The knife and blood spatter at point two it being left handed. I don't think this comes up again, though, so that I know I was saying that.
I was like, Lisa will tell me, but I don't think I ever bring up the left handed thing again.
They never do, so that's funny.
So then this dude showers and washes the wineglass a knife and then takes the dirty towels and stuff with him. Stabler goes, wow, you have it all figured out, and she goes, yeah, at least I'm trying. We're back at
Craigan's office, all hands on deck, including George Wang. He thinks the violence is soothing to him because it was a lot of rage but not out of control, and that he has euphoria after like the initial outburst, but then it calms him down, and so the more he maims, the better he feels, and once the rage goes away, he's kind of like a gentle loving you know. Tucks her into bed, folds her clothing flower on the pillow, and then he also says that this dude wooed her
before he killed her. So George is thinking this guy is smart and charming. Stabler walks off. He's like checks out fully, Benson chases him down. I'm like so annoyed. It's like, just let him be a little baby. I don't like, we have a crime to solve. But they're gonna go talk to the boyfriend and then and like deal with her work, and then Finn and Munch will focus on forensics. So then at Melinda's how oh yeah,
this girl's tore up. Oh it's rough, teeth beaten out, like yeah, he hit her so hard that her teeth fell out, like this is crazy. No semen, but spermicide. And then ding ding ding weird two circular incisions on her chest where the skin was taken out. Melinda says, what this woman went through death was a blessing.
And you know, this reminds me of Silence of the Lambs right away, of course, right the removing of the skin piece, you know, I was like, oh, it's a Buffalo bill type.
But you know, we find.
Out they go to talk to a woman at the store and her coworker has been found dead, but she has not stopped putting clothes away.
Yeah, she's on the move. She's got to restock.
And the thing is this is classic SVU, but it still needs to be mentioned, and it is one of the most egregious I've ever seen, Like you.
Could even ask your manager, Hey, the cops are here to talk about my our dead coworker, Like could could I leave for five minutes?
Can I go outside? Like the manager wouldn't even care. It's like you always have to stock. There's no rush, there's no like no one was at the store. Like the way she was put I mean, maybe that's her, like the way she deals with stress, but just put the clothes down.
If we ever get to talk to like Dick woll for like or people that direct the episodes, I'd be interested to know about, like is there something that's like, oh, it's better, like it's better visually to keep the people moving fast, because like it's one thing to like be on one side of a counter and then move to the other side to grab a book or something. These people are like running half the time they're talking to
the cops. Like the the clip at which they are getting their jobs done, it's so I mean, it's a full SNL sketch, but like it's it's like, I don't know, cracks me up.
Yeah, Okay, So then they ask her about like you know, do you know about this guy that was heard at her house? And she goes, yeah, and he's a married man, but that never stopped him. He was always chasing women and he was shameless. Tammy from Cosmetics even filed a harassment suit. He never backed off. She had a transfer to a store in Brooklyn, and that's when he turned all his attention to our girl. The woman says, like she warned her, but she kept insisting that they were just friends.
So we have to go find this guy. And he's so creepy.
He's touching this woman's legs as he puts shoes on, like he's in the shoe department. So it is, uh, it's creepy. It's so touchy. So we're immediately in cement room bars. He has a bandage wrapped around his hand and he says he broke a knuckle banging it against the door. Hello, we saw a hole in the door, so ding ding ding, So they bring up I keep saying, so I think more than I normally do.
I'm gonna stop.
Well, can I jump in really quickly here to say that this shoeman is soap opera royalty. He is just for any of the soapy girlies. He was on All My Children for twelve hundred and eight episodes, it has on his IMDb, and and then I think he oh yeah, and then he moved Young and the Restless in General Hospital.
But for me, he's Tad Martin.
Tad and Dixie were like the couple for me on All my Children. They're like the Luke and Laura of my all my of all my children for me, I mean also All my Children also had Susan Lucci, who I was like obsessed with, but like Tad and Dixie were like the couple you were like rooting for on All my children. So if anyone any Pine Valley heads out there, this is him anyway.
Go on.
So to me to interrupt, I don't mind. I mean it's good. He needs to get his flowers. He was just the man. So I'm sure you got really excited. They yeah, So they bring up that you know, we know you were Jennifer's and we you know you were her yelling, and then Sailor leans in and goes, oh, I have didn't make you feel good beating a woman. He denies it obviously, and he's like, what is what? What was this about the door I'll pay for the
damn door. Sabor leans in again and like his hands are on his knees and he goes, what set you off, shoe boy, and he says she was going to file a complaint with the boss of harassing her. And he's like, I only asked her to dinner and they say, so you murdered her, and his face is legit shocked, stun and he goes what he turns to Benson like just flabberg acid, She's dead. Yeah. Stabler does not like this attitude, grabs him, pulls him up, slams him on the grates
of the window. He is scared as how you know, angry, angry elliot and Benson you know mommy Mommy is like, leave him alone. And so then he says she threw me out around seven thirty, and they're like, you're a fucking liar, and he goes, no, no, no, I was already at the hospital by eight. So then he breathes like a sigh of relief because he does know that he has an alibi at this point. So Stabler releases the grip just a little bit and they all run out.
Benson is like, bitch, what the hell are you doing. Do you want to get sued? And he's rolling up his sleeves and speed walking. She is so annoyed, but again being mature, So then we had to mercy general and what do we have here? David Steadman signed in at seven forty seven just discharged. Ew I don't like saying discharged. Discharge at twelve fifty two am. They ask why it took so long, and it's because every time he hit on the nurse, she put him on the bottom of the list.
Love that doing the lord's work.
Stabler runs off again and guess what, put your money on it. Benson's chasing him down the hallway and it's like damn like I and in between them rushes in a stretcher with EMTs and it's like we hear face pummeled, five inch laceration to the throat. Benson on the phone trying to hear something. Munch is on the line and she's like, I think that person on this stretcher that's victim number two. So they head on back and obviously this was a commercial break, and so now we're at
the center board of the precinct. The second victim is Celia Mitchum, she's twenty five, a teacher's aid, and the landlord found her tucked into bed with all the same details from the other crime. So they are looking at ye capt to see if there's other crimes that fit the mo because obviously he's like like when he was, maybe more sloppy, because he's way too organized now. But he's not a first timer. This is all according to Huang.
You know, he's like wine, chocolates, roses, that's all romance, you know, white roses, that's a symbol of innocence, purity. Huang's like, unfortunately, no woman fulfills his romantic fantasy, and that's why he goes nuts. You know, he's frustrated and it keeps escalating, and he studies these women. He knows them. He's white educated, middle management and stabler. With his feet up on the desks, goes, why didn't you pick up any of this before? Huang goes, because a pattern didn't
emerge until the second victim, you fool. Quang thinks, such a little bit, it's honestly just so annoying. Quang thinks, he's, uh, well, yeah, it's like a bad trait, you know, like if you're in a bad mood.
Everyone has to be in a bad mood. Yeah, that's like annoying.
Yeah, bad quality exactly, Huang thinks. Now, Huang's like, I bet he's been doing it like five to ten years. And then we hear a new deep man voice. You'll have to go hell of a lot further back than that. And this man knows Elliott, and Elliott knows him, and his name is John and he and he needs a few minutes with Cragan. Craigan is expecting him. He's like, Detective Hawkins, come this way. And then Craigan invites Elliott
to join the meeting as well, which is weird. Why not Benson, you know, she's actually doing her job and not being a big baby fit is like, who the hell is that?
And Stanbler goes, what whyatt here? Right?
Yeah, but that's not his name? No, but that he's making a joke. Why but what is that?
Wyatterup is like an outlaw or something? Right, Like I think I don't know, Like, let me look. I think it's like a reference to Yes, it's like a great question.
I've like literally been to bars called Wyerps and I like don't really know who he was, like a cop, but I think like he was a cop in like the eighteen hundreds or the nineteen hundreds, No, the eighteen hundreds, and I think he did like the Deadwood type time period, you know, and then he I think was like a cop that did things on his own, like like skirted the rules and shit. You know.
Okay, okay, I think he's making that reference, but I did have to google that. I don't so renegade cop and so Craigan wants the door shut. Shit is getting real. Stabler took this man's class at the academy. Hawkins goes, well, do you remember the sohost strangler, and you know, Sabler's like, yeah, Roger Berry early eighties beating raped his victims and then strangle them, and Hawkins put him away. Well he's like, well he's out. He was pearled six months ago. And
Stabler's like what. Stabler fights it immediately. It's like, well no, because there was a knife, not strangling, and the Hawkins is like yeah, but tucks into bed you know White Rose, and Stabler says it, well, it could be a copycat, you know. But we find out that information about the White Rose was never revealed to the media. So then Stable goes, yeah, but he was a biter, and it's like, duh, he cut out the encircles in the skin so you couldn't see the bites and do the dental records like
you fool I wrote a real noss ferratu on her hands. Okay, So so now Stabler has to work with Hawkins. And you know, I always love when they give Stabler a man with an attitude that he has to deal with. This has happened I think three times where they're like, oh, you want to know what it's like to work with an asshole, here you go.
And then he has to like learn this lesson. Sabler's livid.
He's like, oh, I need a babysitter and crays like this is no reflection on you. Sibber says this isn't right, but he has no choice. So Hawkins is addressing the team and he goes, fuck, I missed one fucking parole hearing and they let this lunatic out. Sailor comes out and Ben goes, wow, you know a hawk's areal, take charge kind of guy. So we know that his PO has him working at a flower shop, so they're gonna send Munch to the flower shop, and then the angry
boys are gonna go to the apartment. Benson's gonna go meet up with the lab in forensics. Everyone is annoyed by him, but they're following along and Benson is with an emmy I've never seen in my life. And there's no evidence on any of the romance items. They did, though, find the same navy slip knot was used on both victims, and they found a contact lens. It's for a twenty over one point fifty prescription. So this guy was blind on his way out, they said, at least in one eye.
But there's no DNA in the contact. But then they did find a hair in the drains that did not match either victim, but both hairs matched each other. So that's huge, I mean, that's really yeah. So like if there's one root on any of these hairs and we get a DNA swab like from you know, when he was paroled, we could all we could figure this all out.
We got to find this guy. So they're at the apartment and the men are walking and Hawkins goes as your partner always this friendly, and Sailor goes, oh no, she just doesn't like you get him so they kick the door down and there's you know, Sailor's like, well, we don't have a warrant, and he goes, well, if it's a pearle officer, the pearle officers can do what
they want. And he goes, well, I don't see a parole officer around here, and he goes he'll be here, doesn't matter, and it's just like this is so the episode of Sex and the City when like Charlotte and Samantha learn about like being in like suddenly he's the guy that has to be like, wait, what about the rules. It's like, yeah, you never follow the fucking roll. Saber was like, are we sure this is even the apartment? And you know, are like, Huang sat our dude, is middle management meticulous.
That's not what this apartment is. Like.
This apartment is bear and messy and there's a lot of paintings of tugboats and ferry boats and but the bed has hospital corners. So that's meticulous. But I also think that's trauma for them being in jail for eighteen years.
Right, I also do hospital corners, but you're right, jail trauma. My mom made me do hospital corners. She was like she always said about making a bed. She's like, if you're not going to do it right, just don't even do it. And I was like, okay, and I always and she taught me to do hospital corners and I always do them.
What does that even mean?
Basically, you take the sheet, you go underneath the back, like the very bottom of the mattress, tuck it under. Then you pull up the little corner and then tuck it in so that it makes a little It's like, if you don't do it, your sheets are just kind of hanging like jagged at the point where you tuck it under the very end. So this like tucks it in really neat and makes it like a nice corner.
That's all.
And I've tried to teach Jared how to do it about seventy five times and it's not sticking.
Can't you like cannot do it? He's like, how do you do that?
Again?
I'm like, it's two things, it's two steps. You just cannot figure it out. Weaponized incompetence anyway, So then we.
Find newspaper clippings of Celia and Jennifer. The pro officer finally gets there and he's just like Crosstown traffics a bitch and it is. So then they go to visit his mother since he's not at home or at work, and the mom's like, ugh you and he's like, yep, miss Barry, it's me and he just loves being a heel and she's not helping them, so leave her the fuck alone. She's convinced he was railroaded. He is innocent.
The police still eighteen years from him. She's coughing and like she's trying a garden and she can't now because she's self flustered and she wants to be left alone. She grabs an oxygen tank and like takes some breaths. Hawkins says, if we find you hiding him again, we're going to charge you with accessory after the fact, and she says, you don't scare me, go to hell and slams the door. Hawkins suggests, like, hey, let's go out to eat. Roger used to always like eat at this place.
Let's go.
So they head to Charlie's Bar and grill and the bartenders and a bunch of Svus Royalty. He was in the episode Countdown Deception and Savior, So pretty exciting. Oh the Misha Martin yeah, yes, yes, yes, Ray Andacelli, we salute you and your work for SVU. So he knows Roger. He's like, yeah, he gets a cheeseburger and a root beer. And he started coming here like a few months ago.
And he's also very specific and can only sit at one table and he'll even wait hours for it to open up, and so we like hold it for him, just like with a little sign. Why not, it doesn't cost me any trouble. So the boys get burgers and then Hawkins gets a double bourbon neat and uh, the most stabler order bottle beer domestic.
I'm surprised he's even having a drink.
They've been offered a drink many many times on the job before and they always are like, no, aer a beer is barely anything, I guess yeah, And I think he's just like had enough of dealing with this guy. Yeah, but a double bourbon in the middle of the weekday, that's tough.
It's kind of a wild move.
It also like I'm a jack on the rocks drinker and like not with a burger, not for lunch, like not with dinner, Like that's not that's a like drink at a bar. That's not a dinner drink, right, But he obviously has a problem. So they go back and forth with some attitude. Then angry cop brings up the grandfather rape case and they bond, and you know, he tries to give stage advice, but Sadler's just way too haunted. And so then Stabler is just so tired of losing.
And Roger does a toast and he says, all that's required for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Here's to a few good men. Stabler's phone rings, it's munch. Oh no, he has news. So then the flower shop boss confirms that this dude did make a delivery to Jennifer's apartment like the week before she was murdered, and this is how he found his victims before he was arrested too, like pre arrests. And so the burgers
come and they're like, wait, where is he? Like here's saying he's always here, same time, same table, and he goes, oh, well, sometimes he runs late. He gets caught up looking at the boats on Peer forty one. So the men only take one bite of the burger and they run without paying, and the bartender's annoyed.
He's like wait, who's gonna pay for this?
And so they see his ass at the pier and they separate and slowly walk towards him on either side of the boardwalk. He's scared and kind of slow, and so he has I rope around his neck and he doesn't like, you know, he doesn't want to go back to jail, and he tries to jump, but Stabler catches him and he's like they're fighting. It's a lot of fighting.
The dude punches him and Stabler cuffs him. He's screaming, you know no and crying and we're in cement room bars and Roger does not want to talk to John Hawkins one bit. And he goes the night before last, where were you? And he's like, I was, you know, with my mom on my birthday. I ate cake and I went home. I was in bed by ten. He says he doesn't know who Celia is, but he does admit to delivering flowers to lots of nice ladies. Hawkins is like, yeah, and then you killed this one and
he's like, no, I did not. I just don't see him getting away with the crimes. Like I'm looking at this man and I just don't see it. So, so why did he have the newspaper clippings And he's like, well, my mom gave them to me. My mom told me to be careful because you were going to try to put me back in jail. And Sailor goes, hey, you're not going to go back to jail if you didn't do it, and he goes, Nope, you're gonna lie. That's like he lied last time, and Hawkins goes, oh, here
we go. Rogers is like, you know, Hawkins said if I signed the papers, I could go home.
And Hawkins is.
Screaming, and Roger gets fed up and flips the table and Hawkins and Stabler like against the wall.
Oh my god.
Hawkins like puts him against the wall starts slapping him in the face, and this guy starts crying for his mom, and he goes, your mama can't help you now, boy, and then he threatens the needle in his arm, and at this point, Roger was crying so hard and he slides down the wall to the ground and goes, I want my mom. Stabler's like staring at him like, oh my god, what about Like this is so then Benson's telling Hawkins, we gotta cut him loose. We have nothing
on him, and you know John has pissed. Of course, so then Benson's stablor Cragan in Cabot. They're like all together around Craigan's desk and it's like a like a Sistine chapel painting, you know, and trigger warning.
I'm gonna say a word, Gregan says.
But Craigan like leans in and goes the guy is borderline retarded. And then Roger's like, oh, no, he's smarter than you think, and it's like, no, he's not, Like what are you talking about. There's no fucking way this guy committed this crime like with with no like leaving no evidence and the incision marks and like.
The unless he's like unless he's pulling like an Edward Norton primal fear. This man does not know how to commit crimes. Wait, did you see that for movie Snake?
I got top one percent of players for the Edward Norton game. Ooh congratulations, that's a time to shine. I mean I was just yeah, so rob, so this guy's like, let me just go at him alone. I'll get him, don't you worry, And they're like no. His mom reached out to legal aid and he's lawyered up. I think they are. They're going to cancel legal aids soon. So so they're like, you need to back up, like he has a lawyer, and he runs out of the squad. He's like so upset. Stammler's like, wait, but this is
like fucked up. The signature was never released. How can this be a copycat or someone and they're and then they're like, oh, Roger was never the fucking guy. The SOHO strangler has been around this whole time, and now he gets to come back because this guy's out of jail, like duh, And so we got to get to the file room to get information on the old case so we can like get to work. Benson's like, uugh. He will never accept that he did something wrong, especially if
a woman tells him. And Saber goes, yeah, he's old school, and Benson goes, no, I think he's a drunk. So then she was calling other cops to get gossip and that nobody wants to ride with him.
Everyone hates him.
And then guess what when they get to the files, they've already been checked out by Hawkins.
Holy shit.
He checks everything out to cover his ass because he knows he puts a man in jail that did not commit the crime. So Stabler goes to his house and the tape of the confession is playing. So this man is not doing well. Roger is sitting listening to the confession. Boxes and papers and everywhere, empty bottles of booze, framed photos of a family who probably doesn't speak to him anymore.
So he admits he was wrong.
Stadler says, don't worry, We're gonna get this guy, and Hawkins goes up to get another bottle of booze. So he starts like giving the backstory. He goes at the time of the case. You know, he'd only had his shields for one year, but he wanted to show off and show everyone what a kick ass cop he could be. And he saw the flower delivery guy and he searched the truck and he found out like porno and creepy shit.
He got him to confess. He just wanted it so bad.
He grilled him over and over and over again to the point where he convinced him that he fucking did it and fed him every single detail, and then he lied and said, if he signed this, you can go home to your mom. And then he goes the poor dumb son of a bitch believed me.
It reminds me so much of Brendan Dacy, like what happened in making a murderer? Like they just brought in this like kid, and they kept him there for so long, and they were just like if you go home, if you go home, you can go home if you signed this shit, Like it's so crazy.
I hate that. I like, I ough, yeah, like solve the crime. Okay.
So Sailor's like, you have a chance to make things right. He goes, I took eighteen years from an innocent man.
It's just occurring to him now, like it's it's just occurring to him that maybe this got like that he did this wrong thing, Like it's fine to be like, oh, I was a young dumb ass. I was looking for valor when I was younger, and now I'm it's eighteen years later and I've never gone back to be like, oh, by the way, I think I might have fucked up this case.
Like it's so I don't know, know, I think that's why he's a boozhound. Yeah he's drinking away the doubt the shit. Yeah, yeah, Sabler gives him a speech. John looks motivated but drunk. So they're gonna go through the papers and they're just gonna do old fashioned police work.
Sabler asks Arthur Blessard, and Hawkins goes, oh, yeah, one of the neighbors that I did Roger, and Sailor goes, well, that name was an an Chilsholm's date book three weeks before she was murdered, so she as an appointment with a taxman named ab Holy shit. And then back in the day, Hawkins used to sketch faces to keep like
all the interviews straight in his head. So he goes through the old notebook and finds it and says, this dude was blind as a bat, holy shit, and like he had these thick glasses in the drawing, and they're like that could be like the contact from Celia's floor vision problems. To me, the contact thing is a stretch, like I don't know.
Yeah.
Also, it feels like this is like a place where they also would have figured out like who's left handed, but they just caught it out or something, and that's why it's like at the beginning, you know.
And so we're back at the office and since Roger was in prison. Like twelve more crimes in five different cities did happen, so he really fucked up, and twelve women are dead because he was like wanting to do selfish police work and be cool. So that's really And like the cities of all the places where the crimes occurred match up with Arthur Blessard's employment history, so they could place him at seven of those murders. Chicago's where he started cutting out the bite marks. Atlanta is where
he started slitting throats. Every case matches his signature, and then Hawkins comes in and goes and now he works at twenty six Federal Plaza. He's in New York and he works for the IRS. So they go over to the RS and so Celia and Jennifer Files are in his office. He was using the IRS as a dating service and in his date book there's a time like it says a woman's name, five PM and their meeting and it's four forty five. They have to go now, so they rush and they hear a glass shattering. Inside
they find this loser. They throw him up against the wall and they arrest his ass. Benson is talking to Beverly, the woman who is about to be murdered.
We can presume he.
Contacted her about irregularities on her tax return. She went to the office. He was really nice and they worked on her taxes. Is that a thing that the IRL does? No, you cannot get through to the IRS.
And I don't think the IRS is ever trying to help you, Like, I don't think the IRS is ever Like, hey, what happens if you have irregularities on your taxes? Is they just like fine you and fuck you? You know, like they're not like, come on in, let's work this out.
Like no. But so then she goes, this is even stranger.
She goes, I had moved from Ithaca and I couldn't fly my accountant out Like what, yeah, I guess people are were there not even fax machines at this point? What are we I know about fax machines in a phone? Oh yeah, I couldn't afford to fly my accountant down from Ithaca.
What. I just think that's season three to even be.
To be an option of I'm flying my accountant in is crazy?
Yeah, So you offer to take her to lunch. So then while she's at work, he gets a call. She gets a call from him saying that he accidentally double booked and wanted to make it up to her by taking her to dinner, and he then but it cuts back, so now it cuts to cement room bars. So now we're going from woodroom blinds with her to cement room bars with him. And he's like, oh, dinner was her idea and she goes, well, things started getting weird, lots
of questions about my personal life. And tonight he showed up at my apartment with flowers and she didn't want to let him in, but thought that she had to, you know, let him down gently for tax reasons, so he didn't fuck her in the audit. So now we have a chat session in the center room. Finn says that they searched his apartment and found a contact case with a single contact, so he hasn't gotten new contacts. Like all of these don't make sense, like or like what,
So now he's just been blind this whole time. So then he also has a flower receipt to the store. He was setting up Roger with those flowers, and he did lawyer up, so they can't like talk to him right now, but you know, we have to find out how we can keep him. We have to figure out how to make a case so he does not go home. So instead of the new murders, how about we relook at the old stuff and see, like when he was less experienced, if he fucked up and find some old
crime evidence. So we find some DNA, but it's a mix of two DNA. Oh this is so this is honestly the craziest episode. It's like all of these tropes all together. They don't make sense, Like nothing makes sense. So basically they find DNA, but it's a mix of two DNAs. So they have to separate the DNA with the victim and then like the suspect. So we need to but she's been buried for eighteen years, so we're gonna dig her up.
We're gonna digger up.
We're not gonna get an old hair brush or clothes or like see if the parents have something, we're gonna go straight to. Let's dig her up so we can separate these DNAs. So they cut to two people that look like American Gothic. They say no, They're like, let
Marsha rest in peace. But they try to convince her, and Hawkins is like, we know how difficult this is for you, and she says, no, you don't and that is true, like fuck you, Hawkins, and then you know, they plead with her, and they finally do convince the parents. So we see this casket getting pulled up from the ground. They got what they needed, they separate the DNA matches. So then they go to arrest him. They hear noises inside. They break down the door like all guns open, they
spin around, windows open. He's climbing up on the fire escape, so Hawkins climbs up and then Stabler follows as well. It's strange to climb up and not down for a guilty man, but okay, So now we're on the roof and there's a chase. Stabler finally finds them. Arthur is hanging off the roof. John Hawkins is standing over him, beauty in the Beast style, and he's gripping and like begging, and Hawkins is stepping on his hands and Sailor's like, don't do it, and the man is screaming. Hawkins is
thinking Stabler's watching. They pull his ass up together and Hawkins is like, you're gonna let an old drunk man do the salon?
Or are you're gonna help me?
So then they pull his ass up together, they put the hardware on his ass, and then yeah, they read him his rights. Dick wolf Baby. Honestly, like such an interesting story. I wish this was like a season seven episode because there's too many crazy things.
Yeah, sometimes there's.
Digging, the body, the left hand thing, the contact, like, I don't know, it's just it's a lot of goofiness.
But such a good story. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
And you know, sadly based on a couple of real things, which we will get into now. This is based on a couple cases. So the first one I'm going to talk about is the Albert de Salvo case, who was also known as the Boston Strangler.
So in Boston this is like famous.
No, I there's other stranglers, the Hillside Strangler, there's like other ones.
So I don't know how famous this.
One is because it's from like the sixties. And yeah, it's from the sixties, so I don't know. But I would say, like the majority of the big ones we've heard over like seventies, eighties, but this one's like earlier,
so I don't know. But inn eighteen month period in Boston between nineteen sixty two and nineteen sixty four, so eighteen months, like a very short period of thirteen single women are found murdered strangemen also thirteen in an eighteen month period, which is a lot Strangely, the victims range in age from like nineteen to eighty five, like they're from different socio economic backgrounds, different races, like which is you know, weird, Like most of these guys have like
a type or like an mo or whatever. So most of the victims were sexually assaulted and strangled in their apartments, though the eldest victim did die of a heart attack. At two were fatally stabbed. One was also horribly beaten. I mean, they're obviously getting a lot of the details
for the episode from this. The last victim was also the youngest, nineteen year old Mary Sullivan, found murdered in her apartment on Charles Street in Beacon Hill, where you and I have been together at my friend's mother's place is three blocks from where this happened. There was no sign of force entry at any of the crime scenes, meaning the victims either knew their killer or he was perhaps like a service person coming to repair something and authorities were looking for a single killer.
They did not think he worked with anybody.
Even though this string of murders was amply covered in the media, the cops were not close to catching him, like they had no idea who this was. Meanwhile, in late nineteen sixty four, the Boston police were trying to solve a bunch of rapes that had been committed by a purp that they called the Measuring Man, which, if you remember the episode or just look like one, was what they nicknamed this guy who would pretend that he was a modeling scout to lure women and then he
would sexually assault them. But this purp was called the measuring Man or the green Man. That's who this rapist was that they're looking for. Around the same time in Boston, on October twenty seventh, a stranger entered a young woman's home in East Cambridge posing as a detective, tied her to the bed, sexually assaulted her, and then left after undoing her restraints and apologizing. The woman's description led police
to identify the assailant as Albert de Salvo. Once his photo was published, a lot of other women came forward to id him as their rapist, and while he was being held in jail, for these rapes. He confessed to another inmate named George Nasser that he was the Boston Strangler.
He isn't that the oh that's Larry Nasser. That's Larry Nasser. But I did think of that.
He told this inmate allegedly that he was the Boston Strangler and told him all these grizzly details. Nasar tells his lawyer, who is da Da da Eth Lee Bailey, And you might recognize him as a member of O. J. Simpson's team of lawyers. He represented Patty Hurst like he was. He's like a big defense lawyer of our time. He just passed away like a few years ago, I think, and he eventually became Dessalvo's lawyer. And the wild thing is DeSalvo was never tried for any of the murders.
In nineteen sixty seven, he was sentenced to life in prison for the rapes as well as robbery charges, and he was in when he was I guess in prison, he recanted his confession of the Boston Strangler deaths, and six years later, in nineteen seventy three, he was stabbed to death in his cell, allegedly by Robert Wilson, who was connected to the winter Hill Gang.
I don't know much about them, but and.
Then the Robert Wilson was tried for the murder and the trial ended in a hung jury. So no one pays for Disalvo's death. But also there have been a lot of what's kind of wild is that there have been a lot of theories that these crimes were committed by more than one person because the mos were different and like the you know, the victims were all different ages and like backgrounds and stuff. Also, Dissalvo apparently got
details wrong about the crimes. For example, he didn't strangle Sullivan with his bare hands, as he claimed, she was strangled by a ligature, so forensic pathologists Mike Golbaden our favorite also said that DeSalvo incorrectly stated the time of the victim's death, and he got that wrong with a few other murders as well. So there are some theories that Nasser was the strangler and that he gave Albert enough details for him to confess. Nasser said later, I
guess told some news outlet. There's an interview with him from jail where he's like, oh, yeah, I broker the whole thing. I wanted Albert to confess and for flee Bailey to get him a book deal. Then we would all make a lot of money, and Albert went along with it. So there are also theories that he's behind Albert's jailhouse murder, so who knows. But in twenty thirteen, after all of this conjecture, Albert DeSalvo was definitively linked to one of the Boston Strangler murders, the murder of
Mary Sullivan, so he definitely killed Mary. It's unclear whether he was responsible for all of these murders. In order to get his conviction, much like the episode, they had to exhume Mary's body for DNA testing, and that took place in October of two thousand when the case was reopened. They exhumed Albert DeSalvo's body the following year, so two thousand and one, and then for some reason, not until twenty thirteen did they definitively link to.
Salvo to Sullivan.
So it's like so funny in SVU when we get these DNA results back in ten minutes, and in other crimes it takes truly twelve years to even connect a victim and a murderer. So that's one case, the Boston strangler case. Who's to say what actually happened with that one? This next one is crazy in so let me take you back to Fort Lauderdale nineteen seventy nine. A string of murders of young women rocked the community. But I'm going to start out and tell you it's a black community.
All the victims are black, and so this doesn't have nearly as much media coverage as you would expect it would have had. July ninth, they find the body of Ernesty German twenty three near high school. July twenty seventh, Sonya Marion thirteen found in the exact same area. August seventh, Terry Gene Cummings twenty one, also you're the high school. August twenty fourth, Kathy Moore twenty four, was found a few blocks from the high school. September second, Wanda Virga
is raped and murdered in Miami. I didn't know this until I just went there a year or so ago, But Miami and Fort Lauderdale are right there next to each other, so the Miami and Fort Lauderdale crimes are close. September fifth, Jerry Frank Townsend twenty seven is arrested for sexual assault by police in Miami. He is intellectually disabled, with the mental capacity of an eight year old, they say, And police say that while he's being questioned in this
sexual assault, he confessed to Wanda Virgo's murder. Soon the police tacked on charges for her and the other four murders and rapes that I just mentioned, and then they claimed Townshend had confessed and had led them to the crime scenes. Days after mister Townshend confessed, the police discovered, much like in this episode, that he had an alibi for Sonya Marian's murder. He had punched into work that morning at his job, like at an auto mechanic, The
police said. Townsend said he'd killed her the night before, but her mother's like, no, she was with me the night before, she left for school the next morning and that's the last time I saw her, So he's getting details incorrect. Within a few weeks of his arrest, Townsend had admitted to the murders of thirteen women, including in Tampa and California, which he said he committed when working
for a traveling carnival in nineteen seventy six. In nineteen seventy seven, I don't know about any of these California victims, like they're not in any of the research that I found. But four of the other victims were from nineteen seventy three Thelma jen Bell, Naomi Gamble, who was only fifteen, and Barbara Ann Brown, all in Fort Lauderdale, and then
in nineteen seventy seven Dorothy Gibson, seventeen in Miami. Despite a psychiatric evaluation that put his IQ between fifty five and sixty eight, which is below the level of intellectual disability, he was declared competent to stand trial because America is fucking killing it. He went to trial for three of the rape murders, and the case was heavily relying on
his confessions. The defense argued that the confessions were not real and that Townshend just wanted to tell them what they wanted to hear, much like this guy in the episode July thirtieth of nineteen eighty. He is convicted for the murders of Naomi Gamble and Barbara am Brown, but acquitted for the murder of Thelma Gene Bell. He sentenced to life in prison, with the possibility of parole after twenty five years. I also don't understand the parole after
like violent rapes and murders. I don't understand how parole is a possibility. But it's the eighties. In eighty two, he pled guilty to murder in the deaths of Dorothy Gibson and Wanda Virga because this is now separate trial because it's Miami. He also pled no contests to the murders of Terry Gen Cummings and Kathy Moore got life again. They dropped the charges in the murders of Ernestine German
and Sonia Marion. And he also pled guilty to that very first rape that brought him that the cops brought him in for in.
Nineteen seventy nine.
So sixteen years later, in nineteen ninety eight, the family of Sonia Marion wants to reopen the case. She did not get justice because you know, they dropped the charges two years later in two in At this point, Townshend has been in jail for twenty years at least. The Innocence Project requests a DNA that the DNA in the case be tested, and huge shock, it does not match Townsend. It matches a guy named Eddie Lee Moseley. So they
obviously tested the DNA from other cases. He did not match the DNA in the Terry Jen Cummings case or Naomi Gamble, both were connected to Eddie Lee Moseley. There was not enough DNA or no DNA to test in the cases of Thelmagen Bell Barbara and Brown Kathy Moore in Ernestine, German And eventually, though, all of his convictions were vacated and dismissed, and he was released from prison at the age of forty nine in two thousand and one June sixteenth of two thousand and one, after almost
twenty two years in prison. Because he was just an intellectually disabled man who the cops said, you did all this stuff, and he's like, I did all this stuff, and he just but he did sue the city of Miami and he settled for four point two million dollars, so.
A tiny silver lining.
And if that is not fucked up enough for you, Townsend was not the only guy who took the fall for Eddie Lee Moseley's crimes. Another man named Franklee Smith served fifteen years on death row for the murder and sexual assault of an eight year old girl in Fort Lauderdale in April of nineteen eighty five. Also, this man was intellectually disabled. The girl's mother wrongfully identified him based
solely on photos she'd been shown. There was no other evidence linking him to this crime, but he was found guilty and sentenced to death in nineteen eighty six. He had always claimed he was innocent, and then sadly he died of cancer on death row in two thousand and eleven. Months later, DNA exonerated him and pointed to you got it, Eddie Lee Moseley. So I'd love to hear more information about how the death penalty is good because I'm not seeing it.
So who is Eddie Lee Moseley.
Eddie Lee Moseley is this absolute monster of the Fort Lauderdale community. He's thought to have raped as many as one hundred and fifty women and girls. He was also suspected of murdering two young girls in the early seventies, but there wasn't an evidence. He was brought in after more than forty women identified him as their attacker. After one woman was able to get a description of him, and she identified him then from photos, and then after all the women saw the photo, forty women were like,
that's the guy who attacked me. His psychiatric evaluation deemed him as quote unquote insane. That's what's written everywhere I look him up. I'm sure that's not like a great term, but that's what they were saying. So he was committed to a state hospital where he spent five years, and while he was away, no similar crimes were were reported in that area.
But good news, they cured.
Him and he was deemed no longer a danger to society, and he's released in nineteen seventy nine. He goes to live with his parents, and over the next seven months, seven young girls are raped and murdered, all near his parents' house. The following year, he's worried that the cops are on too him. I don't understand after two of these murders, how they're not finding the sky.
But again, it is the late seventies.
I guess there's not as much CCTV or DNA and all kinds of ways that we catch people now. But the following year he moves to Lakeland, Florida. There he is very quickly questioned about the disappearance of two young girls, but he's let go because they never found the bodies. He goes back to Fort Lauderdale. He gets arrested for an attempted rape and he's found guilty and sentence to fifteen years. While in prison, they do find the bones
of these two missing girls. It does not say whether they actually link them to him, but I'm going to say probably.
He was also a terror in prison.
He attacked other inmates physically and sexually, threatened to burn the place down, like just the usual, like just you know, wild prison character. But his family hired a lawyer and they got his conviction overturned because his lawyer never got him a psych exam, which is like, what's going on.
That's incompetence, Like why would you not have your client examined when he's got a history, which he does, by the way, he has a history of mental instability and into intellectual disability, Like you I don't understan, why you wouldnt give an exam? Feels very amateur. He gets a new trial and there the judge gives him a shorter sentence, and since he'd already done three years, they let him
out on parole. The system works. Now it's nineteen eighty four and Mosley's the suspect in the murders of Geraldine Barfield, age thirty six, and Emma Cook, age fifty four, both raped and then suffocated. The same year, he's arrested for raping a twenty two year old and he pleads not guilty at trial, claiming that the sex was consensual, and his lawyers got the jury to believe that even though this man has a long, long rap sheet. This is how much women are not believed, especially in the fucking
early eighties. He was acquitted, and he's once again let out into the world. And I do wonder if this guy was accused of killing old white men, if perhaps they would not have been so quick to let him go. But because he's killing mostly black women and girls, it doesn't matter. After he commits two more murders, I've honestly lost track of how many he did and how many he was suspected of at this point, but I want to assume that he did all the ones he was
accused of. The local authorities finally call the FBI, after like a decade of this man terrorizing the area. They're like, let's bring in the experts now. So the FBI built like does up a profile, and obviously it fits Eddie Lee Moseley, Like you know, they figure it's like it's
this guy. In eighty seven, he's once again the suspect and rape and of a rape and murder by strangulation of central love age twenty four and months later he but again they keep going he's a suspect, But then they never say whether he gets brought in for all this. He's getting questioned, but I think maybe there's simply he's not leaving DNA, or he's just like not leaving yor
just not figuring it out. Months later, he is arrested for theft, and by then they had finally matched his blood type to seamen that they had found on murder victims, which was eventually a match. So they bring Moseley in. They confront him about his involvement in all these crimes after almost two decades at this point, and he tries to defend himself. He's making up alibis, like he's fucking up details, he's fucking up dates like they it's him.
Eventually he confesses to the murders of Teresa Giles and Emma Cook. He stood trial in nineteen eighty seven. Numerous Fort Lauderdale's sex workers testified that he was aggressive towards them, that he would like attack women with like with impunity, like in big crowds, like in front of other people.
He was not scared to do it.
And much like Townsend, the man who served at who he's like getting with every Yeah, he's getting away with it. But much like Townsend and Smith, the two men who you know took the fall for his crimes, he had an IQ found to be fifty one, which is below the average intelligence rate, and therefore he was deemed not competent to stand trial. I have no idea why Smith was not afforded that same or Townshend were afforded that same thing. But this guy seemed maybe has better lawyers
because he was deemed not competent to stand trial. And so in October of eighty seven he sent to a Florida State hospital and he's there for a long time. Finally in two thousand, gets tested and he's connected with a ton of murders, most of the ones that I mentioned before. Then twenty nine year old Loretta Young Brown killed in eighty four, thirty four year old that a Turner killed in seventy three, thirteen year old Sonya Marian
who was the one who we mentioned earlier. Her family never got justice originally, and then finally she was connected to him. Twenty one year old Terry Gene Cummings who I mentioned, and then Emma Cook and Teresa Giles who he confessed to, as well as eight year old Chandra Whitehead who was the young girl who's murder and sexual assault. Frankly Smith spent the rest of his life serving time
for so. Fort Lauderdale police wanted to arrest Mosley for these murders, but psych psychiatric tests like he's in he's basically in the mental hospital, and Fort Lauderdale's like, no, we want to arrest him for these murders, but the psychiatric tests that they're giving him still continue to find him, like you know, incompetent to stand trial.
So he remains at a mental hospital.
During his treatment there, he is apparently a model patient, friendly followed rules, got into no trouble so and in treatment this is a person who would likely not have committed these crimes. And he was eventually transferred to a low risk unit and was allowed to leave the hospital on supervised visits to Walmart, and he remained in mental health facilities until he died in May of twenty twenty of COVID in one of these facilities.
So there is, like I.
Said, wildly not a lot of information about these this case. Like there's some a lot of Florida cential articles, some I could get to somewhere behind a bay wall. Also, these, like I said, these crimes were all perpetrated on black women and girls by black men in a black area Fort Lauderdale. So I don't think the media gave it the coverage that it would have if it was like I mean, this is like Ted Bundy levels of murderers
and sexual assaults. But also every single person either committing these crimes or being accused of them was intellectually disabled, like Eddie Lee Mosley. Even though I agree he committed these horrific crimes, he was exhibiting signs of mental instability and in inellectual disability his entire life.
Like as a child, he.
Had learning disorders, and he had an entarot grade amnesia which caused him to struggle in school. He was forced
out of school in third grade. He's from low income, he lives in terrible conditions, and so he obviously turns to a life of crime eventually, So it's kind of I mean eventually, it's like it really just feels like it's a failure of like the system to get these this failure of the justice system that two of these men went to jail for crimes they didn't come in and then it's a failure from Eddie Lee Moseley that he was never given any like mental health support and
became a serial killer and rapist. So anyway, that's that on that And so it wasn't like unlike the episode where this guy is calculated, Like I don't think Eddie Lee Moseley was like, oh cool, like these guys are going down for my crimes. I think it was like a coincidence and you know, racism that they just grabbed
a different guy for this crime. But it's like it's different from the episode in the sense that like it wasn't this mastermind who like moved to other states and then like started working after the guy got paroled.
Damn. But that's that. Yeah, so many victims, so.
Many, But I know that was really depressing. But we do have a guest coming up, so let's cleanse the ballot. Okay, guys, a lot of you have been begging for guests, and guests are back. Our guest today is a prolific film and television actor. He was the lead in several movies in the eighties, like The Lords of Discipline and White of the Eye. He also starred in films like Firestarter with Drew Barrymore and An Officer and a Gentleman.
But you know him.
Best as the unhinged cop who doesn't follow the rules John Hawk Hawkins. Please enjoy our chat with David Keith. You've been on Law and Order Criminal Intent as well. You've been on SVU, Like when you first were casts on this episode in season three, did you ever in a million years think that they'd be currently in season twenty six. I mean, like, this is one of the longest running live shows of all time.
I mean, it's got a built in audience that will never go away.
And yeah, we're we're right here.
We're assuming this was an offer only there was no auditioning.
Correct correct, Yeah, I'm pretty sure it was, but I can't remember for sure. But yeah, I hadn't done a lot of episodic at that point. But the script was just great. I mean I read the script and just loved it. And that's a part of a longer story that we'll get to. When we started tell us that.
Different stuff, tell us tell us.
Well, you know how when you're in episodic TV, okay, you get the white pages first, and that's the one from an actual writer, one of the writers on staff, and it was terrific. Well, as soon as the colored pages, the pink and the grain and the blues started coming in, and it was it had been you know, there were some dialogue changes from I guess the studio. Nobody ever told us who, but they said, and it started kind of diluting the what I thought the original story was.
It just it didn't have the same impact.
And so, being a you know, spoiled movie actor, I started complaining about that. And and Ted Kotcheff, who was directing us. You know, Ted was the I don't know what they call it, but he was the he was the main director for the series.
So he was there all the time and he direct maybe.
Two three episodes a season, and then he would oversee the different episodic directors that would come in. So Ted was directing this episode and he agreed with me one hundred percent on the white pages. So it became white. Every morning I'd carry around those white pages and I say, this is what I'd like to say. He'd say, do it, say it, and that the next time I was going a law in order.
As soon as I suggested.
One change, I was told, no change whatsoever. You say what's on the page. So it didn't I guess it didn't go over well with the the you know, the big wigs.
But on that one we ended up shooting the white pages.
So it was well that Ted was on your side too.
Yeah, you got to go with great. I loved working with him.
Do you remember some of the things that you hated? What were they trying to do? I'm glad you stuck to your guns, because we love the I don't.
Remember. I remember there was one line that Chris has when they first talk about me coming into the case, and he says it's something about yeah, this is wide. Yes, that line vanished and I said I want that line back, and Chris didn't really like it, and because he thought it was like pumping me up too much or something. I said, no, man, it's sarcasm. Yes, this guy's a loose cannon, and that says he's a loose cannon because why it over was a total loose cannon. Yeah, you know,
he wasn't some law abiding you know, Marshall. So that line, you know, Chris greed and we've got that line back in but I don't remember the rest.
That's a great memory because that line.
Talked about it when we did the recap of the episode, like, you know, you you come in and we're like, how does he know?
Are they old partners?
Like?
And then you find out he took his class at the academy. But you're right like right away, you know, oh, this is like a guy that one of these guest stars that comes in and plays by his own rules, you know, and.
That you just says it right there.
So glad you want for that line because it definitely still works.
Yeah, and yeah you were a dressed in all black. Did you know any of the actors beforehand?
No?
Oh yeah yeah yeah Belzer Belser, Yeah, we did a movie in nineteen ninety in Miami called.
Oh Crap. It was with Cindy lawper Cool.
Oh my gosh. Wow.
Yeah, she's married to one of the lawyers on the show which where oh yeah, yeah, yeah, he's a recurring lawyer.
Her husband.
Is that David?
Yes, yes, see David.
David had a small part in the movie too, and he was down there all the time and we became friends.
But I haven't talked to I haven't talked.
To I ran into Cindy at the d n C, but I haven't I haven't reconnected with David. But yeah, that's that's how I knew Belzer, and we've remained friends. So we went out to dinner, and you know, I just love Belzer. I love being around him. I love here and everything he says.
I love him politically, Yeah, you know, he just he's just one of my heroes.
Often running nineteen ninety one.
That's it.
Yeah, often running our producer.
I think the original titles Moon over Miami and they changed it.
Okay, Okay, the cover is so cute. It's a drawing of you guys.
Yeah, those drawings are always really great.
You I love it.
Well, now I'm seeing the two Jakes in here. That's wild. I was just talking about film Newark. Someone told me to watch Chinatown today. I can't even believe it.
Watched Chinatown and watch the two Jakes back to back.
I can't wait because they're what.
Well, there is a twenty year sequel.
Twenty years later, Jack plays the same character, and I'm the son. I played the son who's now a detective of one of the original Nemesis Police Nemesis of Jack's character, Jake Gidtis And yeah, but you know, Jack wrote that script, so it's man, it's as hard to follow as sitting with him in a long conversations it is. It's I read the script and when I went to see the movie,
I was like, now, what, Oh, yeah, you know. Yeah, it's very very meticulously built, and that a lot of you know, misleading information intentionally, so it's an interesting movie.
Wow. Cool.
I got to watch that. I've seen Chinatown, but not the two Jakes. I got to watch that, and.
I loved working with Jack. He directed it as well, and he's the reason I became an actor. His performance An Easy Writer is when I switched from wanting to be a trial lawyer to wanting to be an actor.
Wow.
When he did that little role an Easy Writer, I just went, I can do that. That's the kind of actor I want to be. I never really wanted to be a leading man. Of course, Jack's both. He's a character leading man and that's it's always the dream. But there's just so many, so much room for character leading men. You know, they either have to be good looking or o never both.
Oh god, cool.
So when you get on set or you meet Jack, did you meet him before? Do you let him know like you're the reason I become an actor? Or do you kind of keep it cool?
No? No, No, I told him he was the reason I became an actor. But that was several years before, maybe a decade before, when I met.
Him at on the Rocks, lou Adler's place on Sunset.
I was there with my manager, Aaron Russ Russo, and he introduced me to Jack, and you know, we saw each other off and on. We were always you know, I was always pulling for Doctor J in the seventy six ers and he was with Showtime and the Lakers. So when they played in eighty three, we were we were across the court from each.
Other, you know, talking trash.
And you know, we well, we talked about sports more than really movies.
Yeah. And I see you're wearing a ball's hat, right.
You got it right.
I'm so glad you didn't say Texas because people see the orange, they see the tea.
They see Texas and I say, bite your tongue. So I'm glad to see my husband.
My husband moved to Knoxville halfway through high school and finished high school there, and my brother in law still lives there. So I've been in Knoxville a bunch of times. Yeah, yeah, I found a bunch. It's really it's a it's a great tone. Yeah, But I've been there on game day where it's like the streets are like empty because everyone's just at the game.
And then you just see all the burnt orange color come out.
Not burnt what is Texas? Well, it's just regular orange orange. Yeah, And it's the color of an orange peel, really, and and all the other oranges like Syracuse are that you know, traffic cone orange, and Clemson and all they're they're that, you know, very bright orange, and we're a little more muted.
But Ora, you know where the color came from.
It actually came for the yellow and white daisies that grew on up on airshol back in the eighteen hundreds when the team was first founded, and they took those. So it was a yellow orange yellow at first and then darkened as the years went on.
That's that's where they actually go.
Are a historian of the Valls. I love that.
Well, the thing around here is the falls are too important to enjoys. It transcends funk because it's like having a close relative major surgery every Friday, and will they live or it's just you know, my father, you didn't go around until about Wednesday if Tennessee lost a football game, And it's just my grandfather's were going, you know, shortly after the turn of the century, and our tickets have been We've had these same tickets for four generations. Now
my kids are the fourth generation. And did they go there, Well, my son's thirteen, but my daughter's twenty three, and she recently got a theater degree and has moved to New York and trying to be an actress.
She went there.
Yeah, I think he probably will too. I do have one other interesting you know, I thought we'd be talking about SVU. Well we were there, so I had planned you know, the script, the script part.
So Ted, as I said, was directing this episode.
And this was at the end of a shoot that instead of one season, they shot two seasons with no hiatus. WHOA and the cast was just.
It was just exhausted. They were sick of it.
They wanted a break, and this was the last show. So Ted comes in and he shoots this thing like a movie. I mean more setups per day, Like you'd think you'd finish the scene and he'd have like six more angles he wanted to shoot. And I was loving it because to me, what I dreaded about TV was that it would just be, you know, shoot a master,
shoot four close ups and move on. And he shot it like a like a like an expensive movie, and so it was really wearing the kids out there, long long days, fourteen fifteen sixteen hour days, and the cast was just over it. And I was like, yeah, oh yeah, I was thinking of that.
I know, if you'd have time to do it all, we have time to do it.
So I was in heaven with Ted working our asses often, but the rest cast of not so much.
Well, it probably helps Sabler's character, but also Saylor's kind of over it during all this. You know, Maloney is like annoyed with the like he's in a bad mood.
So maybe a little bit.
Yeah.
Well, you know, they were always great to me and always friendly with me, and you know, it was never like oh, David's on Ted's side, but you know, and I told him, I said, look, man, you know, i haven't worked in two or three months and I'm just digging this and christ just goes, yeah, but we are just so tired.
Yeah yeah, I said, I got it, buddy, I got it.
But you know, so I was hopping around the set, you know, happier in a big and poop.
Yeah.
Well, we've talked to a couple of the regulars that said that, like, that's what's so great about the way that the show is set up like that, guest stars come in with all this energy and like new energy for them all the time, you know, so that they didn't get bored with I think doing the same kind of show and like a procedural and you know, the same cast, Like they get people like you that come in and are like, yeah, you know, so, I bet you, I bet you helped their energy levels a little bit.
Well yeas. And also shot like a movie. I mean it was told kind of like a movie.
Will you tell us do you remember shooting the scene where you finally have come to terms the innocent man is in jail, You're drinking, there's bottles, there's papers, it's all hitting you.
I remember, I remember shooting a scene. It was the last shot of the night.
And I was kind of acted out at this point, and so I just kind of hung in there and try to do the best I could. I was that was probably the scene, the only scene will That was probably the scene of mine that I was least proud of. I thought I had another, should have given another twenty five to thirty percent in that scene, and I was drained, completely drained.
Now if you'll.
Remember, do you remember how that scene started the pan across all the stuff. Yeah, started on a Tennessee football helmet.
Oh my god, you got some little props in there.
I get him into almost everything I do, And I'll tell you this is how I do it.
I first start with the director and say do you want me to use my accent or not?
And if they say yeah, I like.
The accent, you know, which most of the time they do, and I'll say, well, maybe he's from Tennessee. Maybe in his backstory he even played football at Tennessee. So what about some Tennessee props I can get him sent for free? And they said, well, no, they're copywriter. You can't put that I said no, no, no. The ut Athletic Work had a formal letter they sent to all my productions throughout my career saying it's fine to use Tennessee anything David wants to use it.
I love that. That's so funny.
I have a power Toat tattooed on my left shoulder and in Hawaii Oh, I had a sleeveless shirt on and they featured that featured the tattoo in one of the shots.
Are you the number one fan? You must be the number one for generation?
I would say there are hundreds of thousands.
Of these people just like me.
Wow.
Yeah, I have an acting question for you. Sure you're saying, you know you look back on that scene and you're disappointed in it. What do you do when you leave SAT and you're like fuck, like there's nothing you can do.
How do you deal with that? You're just haunted for decades.
I just went home and fell in the bed and went to sleep. No, I'm not haunted for decades. And you know, when I watch it, I don't think anybody else is going to feel like I short. It's only me because I know I have more.
I know I knew that.
Probably have we had we shot that scene earlier in the day, I could have done more with it, but I was just drained.
Was empty.
Tank was empty? Yeah, yeah, not totally empty. So so I think the scene is fine. I'm not like, see, there's no cringe worthy aspect to it whatsoever.
It's just you know, dang, yeah we we didn't notice.
But I mean, I bet you as an actor, notice you know what you want, what you wanted it to be.
You know, well, because it's a big moment, you know, he finally admits what happened.
Yeah.
My question too, is what is it about you? Because I'm going through your IMDb. You've played a lot of cops, a lot of detectives, a lot of more than one guy named Hawk.
You just look like a guy that looks like a hawk.
I mean, it's like, uh, it's very interesting you you've played a lot of I mean, do you think you mostly play like kind of I mean, you've obviously have over one hundred credits, You've played a million different things. But would you say, like you play a ton of sort of like characters like this, like this guy, like cops.
Later in my career, but you know, I used to get to think, hey, you always played military guys. Oh yeah, right, because that was a big part of mine, with Austin and a gentleman and.
Behind me lines and all that stuff.
But I don't know I have I've never gone gone back and looked at.
Which group.
Of society I have performed in the most. I'm never really never really crossed my mind. But it seems like I feel like I've played as many bad guys.
As I have a good guy.
Oh yeah, you know, I just.
Played a role I say justed.
We shot it in twenty twenty three, but you know in a movie that is outstreaming now and it's going to be on It starts on Hulu in March, and it's called Dead Money, and it's a poker heist movie with uh Emil Hirsch is.
The lead and I'm the villain.
I also creative executive produced it, and and you know, I wrote a lot of.
The scenes and and really had a lot of input.
I helped I picked the director, and we did the casting together, and so I was involved in that creatively, you know, from soup to nuts. So I'm very proud of that movie. And I wrote my character in there that he had a bad dye job. So I have my hair, you know, and my goatee.
Died this really dark brown that looks totally wrong, you.
Know, like so, but and it's too Who is just in an episode of SPU that we covered.
Oh yeah he's in.
Yeah, yeah, I'm not not very nice to him in that movie.
You'll see. That's all I'm gonna say. Okay, but you should see the movie. It really is the best movie.
That's this little company I've been working with out of Jacksonville in Atlanta.
We've done I did the first three.
Movies with him, and then they've done two more since then, and that they're really coming of their own. But Dead Money is the best thing that that group has produced so far.
This out cool, but yeah, you'll like it.
You worked with our favorite Bette Middler with Drew Barrymore. We would love to know some a story or something.
Thatt Middler's my childhood idol into adulthood.
Well that was Mars. Yeah, that was my first movie. I've done a couple of little day player roles before that, but that was my first movie. And I was so starstruck by her when she played in nineteen seventy three, she did a con search here in Knoxville, and I slept out in front of the UG ticket office in a sleeping bag with my new puppy and was front got front row center tickets to that. So when I went into the meeting for you know, I told that.
When I went in the meeting, and they were very you know, that meant a lot to Aaron Russo, who was her manager. But I went in and read for Nancy Clopper, the casting director, and it was this sensitive scene in that movie where he's telling her how he wanted always wanted to be a vet and he delivered this cat that was breached and all that, and and I looked up and there were tears coming down the casting director's face, and she picked up the phone and call the director Mark right Well.
She said, I'm bringing.
Mal over to your house right now. So I went over there, read with him, and uh, and then nothing happened. I didn't hear from anybody. Two months went by, so I said, heck, I'm moving back. I'm going back to New York. I missed my girlfriend and so I left LA. As soon as I landed in New York and got to the apartment, my girlfriend had made fried chicken my favorite. The phone rings and they say, get back on a plane. Well, that's that's not an actor story. I'll tell you one
quick Jack story. There's a scene in the Two Jakes where I'm supposed to be waiting by the car my character, who's this, you know, dipshit young cop. And I'm supposed to be waiting by the car. And so they've got a camera set up and Jack's over there and I said, I want to try a couple of things. He said, Keith sent you a fucking great actor. You just hold up one finger to take one, two fingers for take two.
I'll just let the motherfucker roll.
And so he just let the camera roll, and I did all these things, twirling my pistol and practicing my quick drawl and all these crazy things. And that was just a it was such a moment of freedom when he said that. And you never really have total freedom with any director. You know, you're in the confines of what he sees and the limit. Now you can bring things and you can stretch those boundaries. But that's the only time I've ever had the boundaries removed. Yeah, and
just told do whatever you want. I mean, it's a tiny, little scene. You know, it wasn't really dial it wasn't dialogue or anything, but it was just amazing feeling the best scene I ever played with the best actor.
Of course, scenes with Jack were great, but.
They weren't They weren't real, you know, they weren't deep. And the scene I played with Gene Hackman where we go to toe to toe in behind enemy lines, took about three hours to shoot. And that is my that is the greatest three hours I've ever spent as an actor. No matter how deep I went, he would go just as deep, and we just it just kept getting richer and richer. And when it was over, I said, I just want to tell you, Jane, that's the best three hours I've ever ever spent as an actor.
And he was.
He was kind of a curmudgeon a little bit in the film because he'd just come off a film where the director was such a stickler for dialogue and Jane was worried about and I remembering his lines, and he was the age then that I am now seventy, and.
So he was.
He wasn't mean anybody. He was nice, said, you know, he's friendly, but he was he was still just you could tell it was kind of where it was. He was in an abrasive state a little bit, and as soon as he finished his last line in the movie, he became this total class clown.
He was laughing, telling jokes.
He was so happy to have gotten all his dialogue done. And it's a different person, different person, But I loved working with him.
He's one of the greats. I mean, I love him so much. Like that's exciting.
You have such a passion for what you do after you know all these years.
It's nice, it's it's great when the cameras roll and then you're working. Sitting around is the worst part. And Ben Johnson, the famous character actor, some actors complaining about having to wait, and he said, son, do you not understand where, Uh, we act for free.
We're paid to wait.
The reason you make your money is to sit around waiting to shoot. Then when you shoot, that's you do that for nothing.
Yeah, it's kind of true. It's kind of true.
It is so true because I think about that with stand up.
We're both stand ups and I'm on the road all the time, and when I'm on stage doing shows, it's my favorite thing ever. But of course, like I'm going to get in the two hour uber, I'm going to get on my flight.
I'm going to you know, all.
Of that is what you're getting paid for, the hotel, you know, eating like airport food, and then the prize is on stage.
Exactly what's next?
What do you want to do? What haven't you done?
Is there a role that you're like, I need to play something like this, or you're just open to stuff?
What's the I'm open to stuff right now. You know that I've written.
I'm just finishing my fourth script in the last like six months, and I want to do I want to do one of these scripts at least, if not more. So I'm hoping that this little movie company that I've been working with will come around and decide to do one of them.
And I think I didn't.
Know I could write, and and I'm very very happy with stuff I'm writing.
That's great.
I never thought I could even get started, and it just flows better than I ever dreamed.
So I'm really happy with these And do.
You want to direct them?
Yes? Everything?
Yeah.
The main thing is if you're asking about a plug, the main thing I want to plug is dead money, oh bad money with me and Emile Hurstad.
Money on starts on Hulu in March.
Amazing, okay, perfect, this will come out just in time for that.
Yeah.
Cool, that's cool. I'm glad you're getting so fun. Yeah, this was great.
Thank you so much, David, will let you will let you go, and we will make sure everybody's going to see Dead Money.
Cool.
All right, thanks David.
I mean that was really fun. Love talking to him. When an unhinged, wild episode, I know.
I mean it's also because this is season three, he might be like the prototype of like the first guy that comes in and knows the case tries to act like he knows the case better than you know, Like we just had Delroy Lindo, We've had you know, I.
Feel like Anthony Anderson did that. Yeah.
Yeah, even Erica Christiansen to a degree, is that kind of character. Like these characters that just come in and like think that they know better than Benson and Stabler and then like they have to all work together to.
Teach that, you know, teamwork makes the dream work.
But but yeah, this episode is wild.
It's also it's so freaky because this one.
I felt had a really really graphic violence against the victims and that they sort of like showed parts of it, and then the guy who ends up doing it is like so just like innocuous, you know, Like when it was the guy in baggage, You're like, yeah, that guy looks like he would fucking kill you, like for some reason, Like the way he was like sneering. This guy did truly look just like an unassuming accountant with like.
I don't trust an accountant. That's I mean a dangerous type of person. So yeah, but like suspicious.
I don't know.
It just scared me so much the way he was just in that woman's apartment, just having wine with her, and now she acted like that was no big deal. She also is deeply stupid for letting like an IRS agent like into her home.
She was scared she was gonna get fucked you know what I mean, Yeah, fucked over financially.
Yeah, but she was gonna get her teeth fucking knocked out and murdered I know of.
And it's like, you never like to hear Melinda Warner go.
With what this woman went through death was a blessing, Like you never want to hear that from someone who's seen.
Everything, you know, that is the worst.
Like she was like this was bud, but Also, I can't believe he got away with biting the victims for as long as he did with dental stuff.
I know.
That's true, or why they would have to exhume the body if they had the dental records from the past crimes.
Yeah again season three. I don't feel like they were always connecting all the dots in the very early seasons. I didn't think they thought we were be They maybe didn't know the show was going to be on for twenty five years and that some of us would just be watching every episode seventy five times and earning a law degree from watching it.
So I don't know.
I do feel like we find holes all the time in a lot of these episodes, but I don't know what we what's the big takeaway lesson? I mean, definitely that the cops are constantly don't.
Put away someone into jail that didn't do it so you can look like a cool cop, like but also for none of his coworkers to be like, that's not the guy.
He couldn't do that. Yeah.
Yeah, I just can't believe it went through try like this many things that.
Any many years.
Yeah, for a crime where like no evidence was left behind.
I don't know it's well, and then the and in the episode, it's like the guy was doing it. So he was originally even on their list because he testified to seeing the guy in the building, Like so he was framing him on purpose, Like pretty hardcore. So you've got a psychopath who's framing you. But also it's like, did any of you guys have a conversation with this man you think this is? This man is like capable of like evading the cops on all these murders, like
the Soho strangler, like just lumbering around. I mean the guy is like not like I don't know, he's not a stealth killer from not meticulous.
Yeah.
Yeah, And it just also goes to show you that Huang's profiles are seldom wrong. You know, he knew the guy was educated white middle management.
You know he knew he knew.
And stabler fuck you with your little attitude. I mean, but he had a right to be mad, Like obviously that would make me mad too, But like I just hate the vibe of like, well, now I'm going to ruin it for all of you.
Yeah, now I'm gonna be rude to a girl who just found her roommate dead because I'm like just pissed that the like the justice system doesn't work all the time. You know, He's he's got a lot going on, that fucking guy. But they they definitely had so much in the early seasons, like the early handful of seasons that was like it's getting to Elliott, Like I don't think they do that much.
With Benson.
They did so much of like, oh, this case involves a little girl, and you guys know Elliott has a bunch of little girls. You know, Like there was so much like this is how it's getting in his head, and they didn't I don't know they.
Ben's well that well, yeah, that's the thing Stablirt's family, And with Benson, it's just like anytime there's a single woman or an alcoholic or like a mom that's bad yeah, or an alcoholic mom yeah.
Yeah, yeah totally, or like being popular.
In school or something, she's connected in different ways.
Yeah. I mean a good episode.
I think I've been a little too hard on it with some of the silly like I just didn't get the contact of it all. Like there was just these extra additional clues that were annoying to me. Yeah, yeah, but it's not nice because it's an amazing episode, riveting.
It is a like Honestly, as I was watching it, I was like, I know, I've seen this one a million times, but it kind of felt like it was coming back to me a little bit new.
So I liked that.
And I do sort of like the serial Killer episodes that feels like so crazy, But I do kind of like the ones where like they've been looking for a guy for a long time or whatever.
You know.
You know what, I'm getting an urge to watch while I pack and shower. Well, now when I shower, when I dry off, I want to watch the Mattress Killer one.
With oh the women? What is that one with bedtime? Yeah? Bedtime?
Yeah, the Bedtime Killer or whatever. Maybe I'll watch it before bed tonight. That's what I'm really in the mood for. Speaking of old crowd, A cozy little, A cozy little like Bedtime where she liked the old butcher.
Yeah, and she keeps the old sheets. Was she she should have won an Emmy for that one. Oh yeah, and Margaret was crazy. We talked to Jacqueline Smith for that one. That was awesome.
I was in step.
We talked to a Charlie's Angel. Anyway, let's move on to what would Sister Peg Do? This is our weekly segment where we direct you guys to an organization, an article, a blog, a documentary, something to give you more info about what we talked about in today's episode. And this week for WWSPD, we'd like to point you to the
Equal Justice Initiative. This organization is committed to ending mass incarceration and excessive punishment in the United States, challenging racial and economic injustice, and protecting basic human rights for the most vulnerable people in American society. Obviously, I hated hearing about two mentally disabled men going to jail for multiple over a decade each for crimes they didn't commit. So organizations like this are doing a lot of work to
stop stuff like that from happening. EJI works with communities that have been marginalized by poverty and discouraged by unequal treatment. They also provide research and recommendations to assist advocates and
policymakers in criminal justice reform. So for more info, you can go to EJI dot org and we link that in our show notes as always, and we will post it as a link in our stories, that comes out the data this episode comes out, and then that gets saved forever in our WWSPD highlight on our Instagram page, which is That's Messed Up Pod. If you ever want to go back and check out what organizations and docs and articles we've highlighted before, they're all saved there.
Thank you so much for that, And next week we'll be doing Gamblers Fallacy Season fifteen, episode seventeen, Boom Boom Boom goes to the Dynamite. Thanks for listening. Bye. That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.
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