Post-Graduate Psychopath

Of the law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories, Dundun.

Hello and welcome to That's Messed Up an SVU podcast.

I'm Kara Klink.

And I'm Liza Traeger and we're here talking SVU. The True Crimes are based on and we are union strong with SAG and WGA. There are no guests and holy that'll change soon.

Guess what. I went to picket last week.

I went to Picket with This with Sagan WGA at Disney and I ran into Robert brooks Cohen the pod. Yeah, he lives in La now full time. And we chatted for a minute and I was like so happy to see him. For those who don't know, he was a writer on SVU and he was a great guest.

So if you want to go back in time and check that one out.

We'll definitely have him on again one day post strike. I feel like he has a lot of tea that he has yet to spill. But yeah, and he kind of went viral because he made this like he made this like letter board that said like in the like in the television industry, writers are considered especially important or whatever.

Kara is in LA. I am in New York having the time of my life. I you know, everyone leaves New York in August, and I came for Labor Day. You know, everyone leaves for Labor Day. They're in the Hans Ends. I have the best time of my fucking life. Like New York has so many different like you think of the concrete jungle. Okay, see that wasn't even on the rhythm. You don't have to edit that. That was not copyritted, And I said, copyrightted. Things are going wild

When I lived there, I like never went to the beach. I mean, I think I went to Coney Island once, but I just like road rise, I didn't really go in the water.

Like, so it's, you know, what's fucked up. I've been to the beach more in New York than I have in La.

Oh. I mean, I never go to the beach in LA It's too much of a process. I should.

My goal is I gotta go one more time. It really But that's the thing. The hotel pool so nice because like it's the it's the it's the getting to the beach. The walk back, you know, it's the classic yak back. That's like your sandy. You're sweaty, it's done. You have to put everything back, you know. It's yeah, yeah, you hard, it's hard.

Yeah, I hate being sandy, but I do like the beach. Well, I would go with you during a week day. I just don't want to fuck with the weekends. And taking my kids and stuff like Oscar still naps, Like I'm not doing all that.

They were not invited. They I want that to be very ch So that's what I'm saying.

I'm just saying in general. With me going to the beach, everyone's always like, bring your kids to the beach. I'm like, not right now, not until the knaps are done. I think I don't want to do it. It sounds so annoying to have your kids be all sandy.

Well, the best part was on the ferry back.

Me and the girls were sitting not on the seats but on like the white containers that hold the safety jackets, like the lat pockets. So we're sitting because we want to look. We want to look at the ocean. A group of very religious Jewish women stand in front of us, and then this other woman and the woman goes, oh, did we block your view?

But it's like, what, it's fine, you know, you gotta stand.

If you want to stand, we're gonna we're gonna ruin the teens view. No, But then the woman's skirt kept flowing up with the wind and she kept mooning us with her full lavender underwear and to see a modest religious woman's butt over and over again.

What a day. So, hey, you know what only in New York. That's so funny. Oh my god, my parents just landed in Israel this morning. No, yeah, I didn't even know they were going. Yeah.

My mom is like, oh, we have a room overlooking the Mediterranean.

I just what I need. I was like, yeah, Mom, go I have at it.

But like, yeah, they my dad has this like cousin who's like a Holocaust survivor and lives there and is like ninety eight, and I think they just wanted to go see her one more time.

So they're seeing her and hopefully I'll get a dip into the Mediterranean. Yeah, I hope. So you're not watching Below Decks Sailing yet, are you?

I mean, down here, I'm just keeping track of all the near missed sexual assaults that are happening.

But I'm not. I'm not watching. I watched well what about Roney?

Okay, So I fell asleep last night halfway through the episode. So I'm ei they're getting ready for Anguila, but they haven't gone yet.

And Guila's just the weird it feels. It doesn't roll off my tongue. No, it's a hard word to say.

But I've seen pictures of friends that have gone there, and it does look pretty awesome.

I mean, I would love to.

Go any island would be fucking fantastic. Take it It's island, I'm coming.

Yeah.

I used to babysit on that island a lot of island, yeah, because it's you know, it's Upper East and it's across from some hospitals, so I would go babysit for.

Some doctors, some residents, you know. Yeah.

My friend Andrea rose And is from there, and we were just talking about it.

I just saw her recently. She grew up there, and.

I'm always like, what was that like, Like they don't even have a school past sixth grade. I don't think like they have to go into the city for like school, but like it's such a I don't even think I've ever been there.

Yeah, No, New York is And we passed Governor's Island on the ferry. I mean, it really is just multi faceted. I had the best cheeseburger of my life a Red Hook tavern, Like ooh yeah, it was just kind of too good to be true. And then I went to Friends South yesterday. There was some more Toadella, my favorite.

You know, like, I'm so glad you had such a magical weekend I have been.

I actually do want to bring this up to the listeners because I'm sure I'm going to get a ton of messages with uh suggestions. But I have been potty training my son all weekend doing the pants off method. My husband woke up with an illness on the first day of body training and has been in bed the entire time. We just found out he has pneumonia. Don't worry, he's in recovery. He's got medication. But like I've been like single handedly potty training a child while dealing with

We'll see what happens. But anyway, it's just been like.

A never ending weekend of blah because that's all I've been doing. So I'm really glad that you have a good, counterbalancing good weekend too.

And what's happening or oh yeah, why is he pissing everywhere and taking the shits on the floor.

He hasn't taken a shit on the floor at our house. Luckily, he has actually been proactive about shitting in the body. But peeing is like it's like he doesn't know what's happening, Like he's just talking to me while it's happening.

He's just like he was. I took him.

I took him because on the last day, the third day, you're allowed to go on short outings. So I took him to our friend's house and he immediately peed on this like there's these couches called the Nugget and they're like, you know, they kids can build like forts with them. They're like multi piece couches or like little couches for kids. And he was climbing on it and just pete. I was like, I've never seen you pee like in motion while doing something, Like, what is wrong with.

What's going on with you?

So I'm just really trying to keep it cool, which is what my potty training course told me is to keep it cool. So I'm like, oh, hey, man, you pete in your pants. You're supposed to do it in the potty maybe next time. Anyway, I'm supposed to act like that doesn't bother me at all, and it honestly is killing me, you know, because I don't like pee on my body or on my hands or when I step in it.

I don't like it.

There was a pea incident with potty training on the Real House Says of New York.

Oh yeah, I saw that. I got to that part that actually made me feel a little bit better. I was like, Okay, I guess kids be pissing.

Okay.

I knew I had something to bring to the table, and it just hit me, you know. Besides bragging about my gorgeous labor day weekend, which I hope everyone had, I also want to thank everyone that wished me a happy birth. I saw all of your nice posts and messages, so thank you so much for that.

I appreciate it. I am old and I am cool.

Oh and by the way, my birthday is tomorrow, so I expect the same verb as you gave Lisa.

Yeah.

Yeah, we are competitive with birthday wishes. We will be counting the amount of posts per person. But you did a great job on my slideshow. That was a nice little surprise to wait Ojay. I was really surprised by that. And you know, Kara and our friend Laurence sent me some cupcakes to the suburbs.

Of Chicago, and I have another thing here for you.

I'm actually like looking at it right now, but it's a little silly thing that I want to give you for your birthday. But I'll wait till you return from your travels, of course, so listen.

After the day at the pool, my friend who I'm staying with, went to bed at eight pm, so I yes, eight pm. She left me and I was like, okay, but I wasn't gonna go out. So I watched the Telemarketers the whole three part series. Then I watched the documentary HQ, which was about this trivia phone app. And then I watched a four part series on Sean White, the snowboarder, and I'm into snowboarding. Map he is my icon, my idol. I pray to the at whatever to Sean White.

Like I didn't realize. Like I knew he was an Olympic gold medalist.

Of course I knew he was very good, but a revolutionary in the sport. He is the reason snowboarding is what it is today. His family is incredible. They are all so tight knit and like even the sister in the doc was like, yeah, he's obviously incredibly talented, but if he didn't have our parents, this might not happen. They got a van, they would live in a van and just drive from mountain to mountain, and they would fly as a whole family like supporting him. He is

And I go, yeah, I.

Go get ready, get ready for my snowboard era. I've never been interested in winter sports in any capacity, but I think I might try snowboarding.

I want to kind of try it now. That's so fun.

Oh my god, more about how you and Rosie are freaking soulmates. She literally yesterday goes, mom, can I try snowboarding?

And I was like, sure, I.

Don't know how to snowboard, but maybe Uncle Kevin can teach us because my brother snowboards. And she was like, okay, I go, but just so you know, when you first start snowboarding, you land on your butt a lot. And she was like, okay, I'm ready. Well that's maybe me and Rosie could take a lesson. Yeah, and I'll together drink drink a little spike hot chocolate. Wait, I've met Sean White.

Wait get the in Torino.

Yeah, in Torino, in bardonek Ya, I went to I went with Katie Couric to for to interview him the Flying Tomato.

But I didn't really.

Know, like I knew he was famous, but I was like phi, you know, like I wasn't really like.

Exactly I didn't.

I didn't realize what And because he pushed the sport because he started practicing with foam pits and just like now you know, the whole point of the four part doc is like the last run and it's his fifth Olympics and like, you know, just his retirement ride. But the youth are so good because of him.

He elevated the sport and so now all these teenagers are incredible doing tricks that his old, you know, his old.

He's thirty five.

His body he can't do it, he can't do it, all these injuries. But his physical therapy is amazing. And she works with Serena and Venus and they have such a lovely relationship. His coach is cool.

And he's dating Nina Jabriv which people with her. Yeah, she's Vampire Diaries.

Yeah, and she dated Ian smolder Holder from Smolder Holder.

I knew it, and you didn't say it.

I was going to say it, but yeah, because I found an article and it was like all Nina's exes and their estimated wealth like net worth, and his is, of course more than anybody's. He's worth sixty five million dollars. I mean his Red Bull contract was for one hundred million dollars.

He's like Tony Hawk with skateboarding, right exactly. And they lived Michael to each other, Oh my god, because he called he goes.

I got a video game too.

But like I guess I knew he had long hair because my favorite clip of him is he's doing a post Olympic interview and he's like the flight was wild.

Everyone's giving me attention.

I've already said this on the pod before, but I do love it, and they did put it in the dock and he goes, everyone is giving me drinks and the newscast goes, drinks, aren't you nineteen?

And he goes, hah, mountain dews baby.

Yeah, like so, and then she goes, did he just call me baby?

But I don't know.

I was really inspired. It was really cool. He is, yeah, and then he's friends with Aaron Paul. I don't know, it just was sports are really easy material for inspire inspirational docks, like thirty for thirties. Any kind of sport thing is usually invigorating. I would say, yeah, yeah, but you know, and then his mom was really tight with money and didn't want him to spend. And then finally

How was the telemarketing thing? Because I'm dying to watch that. But everything that those Saftie Brothers guys make like make me feel like I'm on cocaine and like I have to so I'm going to be agitated, didn't make it. They producing it.

So basically it's this like teen teen scumbag.

He loved graffiti and his dad was like, you gotta do it, you gotta get a job. And who's going to hire a dirt bag team? This telemarketing place that is a scam.

I mean, they're.

Highly illegal and they are they're doing fundraising for the Fraternal Order of the Police and the it's obviously intertwined with the police and unions, and they're taking people's money and spending it on golf excursion.

It's really fucked.

But so basically, but this teen wanted to be a documentary filmmaker. So it's so much footage of this place, so it's like that's how it started. It was just him as a teen getting all this footage. But a lot of the people that work there are ex cons because no one hires felons, but this place, there's no standards in any way, so these felons come out, they get jobs. So it's felons and teens and the best salesman on the force a heroin addict, so he's like

It's like there's a camaraderie.

So it's like using all this footage and then the dude on Heroin Pat is like, you know, this company is shady as fuck, and they start investigating, and so then they lose him because he's an addict, and they they can't find him for eight years, and then he hits them back up and they start with their investigation again and they start talking to government people and all this stuff. But what's a little wild is they get really cool meetings and they have a lot of evidence, but.

He's not good at it.

So there's a scene where Pat, this heroin dude is like interviewing someone and the voiceover goes and then we realized he wasn't very good at this, but they continue to do it. So they're like trying to do Michael Moore stuff and they're breaking. They're like entering a police union conference and he's like going up to a guy. He's like Yates, Yates, Yates, and the guy's like, I'm

So it's like they're bad at it.

So they get all the information and it is like, no one wants to fuck with the unions. At the end of the day, there were there were like national investigations and the company has got in trouble, but no one wants to fuck with these unions. But it is good and there's a lot of cool info and footage, and I like the friendship and I you know, camaraderie

But they are right and it is corrupt and it is cool.

So I think the Safti brothers like joined and probably made it better and produced. But it's because of all this old footage she had of this why I'm.

Not putting I gotta watch it. I can't wait.

And the heroin dude looks like someone we know, and it is very funny.

Oh okay, now you got Now I wait, let me watch it and make my guests.

Yeah.

I also found out through this that before you watched it, we talked about it with our friends, and we found out that our friend was a telemarketer and was like very good at it.

Yeah.

I did fundraising for my university and I was good at it.

But I don't think. But I believed in it in a way.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I called alumni and was like, give a few bucks, you know, like I don't.

I don't think.

I was like, I wasn't selling somebody, uh, you know, a website that's not real, like jen Shaw or whatever.

No, but it also like they had all the scripts and it's they've really they're terrible people. And then some people's faces are blurred in the interviews, like the people that own these companies like it. Oh, yeah, it's interesting. The HQ one was interesting too. I didn't know anything about it.

I played HQ religious.

Of course you did. Yeah, that's not I don't have a doubt in my mind about that.

I was obsessed with HG.

Well do you know the story of the demise and all of that. No, I don't even know what happened. Why did I stop playing?

Like why, I mean, I guess why do we stop When did I stop doing Marco Polo? When did we stop playing house party? I mean, you know, like there's all these little.

Like no but those like someone lost their life, Like this is insane. There's there's wild shit in this doc. That's what I'm meaning about.

Yes, true, the HQ doc Betary is true crime. I had no idea.

It's all true. That's what we've learned. Everything is funny. Everything that's a true crime. You know, once the Housewives crossed over. Well, I also want to say thanks to everybody that came out to our shows in Raleigh, Charlotte, d C, Atlanta. We are back out in October. Get those tickets Boston. We need you guys to show up. We're at the wilbur We maybe bit off more than we could chew and we need to fill those seats. And then cle We're at a We're in Toronto for

And then yes, the New.

York tickets are going fast. We might add another show if you guys keep If you guys keep it, up. So, but get those New York ticks and we'll let you know what happens with that should we get.

Started, and I'll be in Brooklyn October eleventh at the Bellhouse.

There's some tickets left, not a lot. I would get that.

Yeah, get those Bellhouse tickets. I'm doing an opening set. It's gonna blow your fucking mind. Just I mean, we'll do what I can.

All right. We have a great.

Episode for you guys, though, so stay right where you are. You guessed it, guys. We did Born Psychopath last week, and obviously we're hitting you with the two parter. We're doing Postgraduate Psychopath Today, season twenty two, the second part of a I don't know two episodes that with eight seasons in between. This one aired May twenty twenty one, and you can tell there's COVID like precautions all over this episode, so you could tell they shot it during that time.

But I don't even think I noticed that.

Oh yeah, there are screens. There's people talking about masks.

Yeah, I saw the screen. I don't know why the masks and registered so wild.

Well, so if you have not listened to last week's episode, you probably should.

If this is your first episode.

That's pretty wild of our podcast, but go back because this is part of a two parter. So we open with a disclaimer on this episode that it's a fictional story and not based on anyone as usual. Sure, Jan, So the episode opens with some sepia toned footage of the last episode, so eight seasons earlier, Born Psychopath. It's refreshing our memory Henry's being sent to a treatment facility until he's eighteen years old. Cut to present day, it's December of twenty twenty and how So I.

Am curious did they come up with this in the writer's room? Did Warren Light want him back? Were they like this would be a great idea like that? I am so curious, And maybe we need to hit up Mole because I want to know how they decided to do this. They've never really done this before outside I know William Lewis, but that's so connected. They've never done this, and I am curious how they came up with this and that the boy agreed.

To come back and all of that. So, yeah, I am too.

That'll be a question when we finally get Warren Light on the podcast. I'm sure after the strike is resolved, he's going to be dying to talk. So it's December of twenty twenty, the heart of the pandemic. Henry Messner is standing in family court addressing a judge and guess what, he's eighteen now, and he is describing how he's been

I was a pathological liar. I had anger issues.

And we see a flashback of Henry being a creepy little psycho, like we just all watched this episode last week. And now his therapist is on the sands saying that he's been an exemplary patient for the past five years, curious, proactive in his recovery, and she is just standing behind a free piece of plexiglass so you can tell its pandemic vibes, and she I.

Don't know if you remember her.

She's from that episode with Adam Beach where Chesterlake ends up murdering people.

She's in the society with him.

Oh, she's like, Okay, I knew I recognized her. The actress's name is Deirdre love Joy, which I was like, that's just a cute name, but I didn't actually look her up, like to see that.

That's interesting.

Yeah, she was the one that was in the Secret Society of Detectives in Philadelphia with Yeah, which is based sound like because she sounds familiar, she looks she seems what's her name again, Deirdre love Joy because love Joy.

Is also from the Simpsons, Reverend love Joy.

Oh, but she's really familiar.

Yeah, she has so many credits. Oh yeah, she's been working Blacklist sview. Oh wait, she's been on a couple s views. Hold on, Oh my god. She was in Slaves. She was in Slaves season one, which we've covered based on Colleen stan She plays a detective. Then she's the same detective in season two an episode called Secrets, and then she plays someone named Penelope Fielding in Cold that's the one you're talking about, because those are cold cases.

This is interesting because I just watched Girls and she's in an episode of Girls, So I feel like that might be the connection. Oh okay, and I had because she seemed so familiar to me. But also she was in Orange just the New Black for a couple episodes.

Okay, yeah, and she's done like an American horror story.

She's been working, so she's like, no one could be like.

Oh, she plays one of Hannah's aunts and girls.

Oh right, right right, that's no one could be hype manning Henry Mesterner more than this woman.

She is like, he is the shit.

And this surminds me of Ed Kemper, you know, who was able to he was so smart because a lot of these psychopaths are really high IQ and so Ed Kemper, you know, killed his like grandma and grandpa as a youth and was able to trick everyone, become everyone's favorite guy, and they feel good about themselves because they're like, Wow, I'm an amazing psychologist.

I cured this little psycho and they know how to fake it. Yeah.

So this reminds me of Ed Kemper, which is a case that we covered. If you know, if you're new to this pod and you want to go explore. We already gave you a couple examples.

Yeah, it's a cool, it's a it's a it's a it's fucking psycho, but it's a very I love the Ed Kemper stuff.

It's so interesting.

Well because Slaves also that you mentioned, was one of our first episodes we've ever done and still haunts me. I think about Colleen stan weekly. Yeah, I think about her all the time. It really affected me.

Yeah.

It's a yeah, horrific case and the people can survive come back from the edge of such horror.

Oh you know what this actress though to come back to it. She was sixty episodes of The Wire, so because people will yell if we didn't sixty they know.

Okay, you guys know The Wire is my blind spot. I never watched it, so but that is that is a big thing for her. Yeah, sixty episodes, and she's done regular law and Order, and I bet you she's done you know, Oh, she's done criminal intent. So she's done the whole tri EFFECTA. So the sister Ruby, who is now thirteen, who Henry tried to kill, is like in the gallery at court watching his therapist says that when he was admitted, he was on the severe end

Isn't a recast? I thought maybe he just got a little older.

No, the season fourteen actor was na to Alex Mannette, who weirdly was also in the movie We Need to Talk About Kevin, which is like conic movie about a child psychopath.

Which I saw on one of my first dates with Jared.

If that is tells you anything anyway, it looks like this guy stopped acting in twenty seventeen, so that's probably why he didn't come back to reprise the role. And now it's being played by Jason Cottole, and I don't really know anything him from anything. He's on the stand saying that him and his new wife Holly, and his sister Ruby have visited regularly Henry in this facility. They can't wait for him to come home and live with them and live with his new little.

Brother arlow uh oh.

He also reveals, I just think having a when you mentioned that, like there's gonna be a little kid around a psychopath, I don't like that. I mean immediate hairs on the back of my neck. So he also reveals that Henry's mother passed away five years ago aka Hope Davis was busy and not replaceable because I think she had a bigger part in the last episode and she's more recognizable and they're like, but she would be so

They really had faith that he could change.

And the judge is like, all right, let me think about this and I'll get a decision to you before the holidays. And Henry gives this like extremely freaky half smile. This actor is like very good, like he's so dead eyes, it's like really and he just gives a sort of like half smile that you could kind of if you were the judge be like, oh, is he smiling or is he a total psycho? It's like very, very confusing,

Her name is Libby Blandon. She's nineteen, she's unconscious. She was found.

Burned, lost a lot of blood or her roomy found her tied up, gagged and naked, so sexual assault is implied. Finn and our girl kat Toman aka friend of the Pod Jamie gray Hyder, are there.

They go to top to the roommate.

She's wearing like a two piece outfit with like neon and like matching neon boots, and she explains that she and Libby.

Were at a dage, which is a day rage.

I did double check it and make sure that it wasn't just like some boomer in the writer's room making this up. It does exist. I wish we could do better. I think that sounds like silly slang. But apparently Libby left the dage early around seven or eight, and the roommate went to go hook up with her ex, and then she's like, oh my god, that might have saved my life. And it's like, also, your friend isn't dead.

She's very disturbed by what she's seeing.

Security cameras have kids coming in and out of the building all night, and half of them are wearing masks, not mascarade style, COVID style, so it's like, gonna be very hard to like weed this guy out. And Kat's like, he had to have left DNA, and Finn's like, yeah, but he might not be in the system. Someone this fucked up. If they were in the system, they would have never let them out. And it's like yeah, but Finn. We've seen the system let out dangerous psychos a million times,

And her crazy sister and her crazy mom.

Dastly Henry would fit right in ight in with Yeah, the Rolins family, right, And the dad gets to bring his new girlfriend who's like using him for we don't know what it would be.

Does Cariesie get to go, Will Billy and Jesse be there? Who's to say?

So? She gets a call from Live and ditches her mom. Obviously, Rollins can't find Jet and she's like, all right, I'll meet you right there. Rollins then cannot find Jesse immediately, and this is like a nightmare mom scenario that happens to me six times a day where I'm just like, where's Oscar, Like I can't find it. Like Rosie, I kind of always know we'll not do something crazy, but Oscar will run into traffic.

So I have this happen all the time.

After like five seconds, Jesse appears with a little white dog, Stuffy, and she.

Says, oh, a nice man gave it to me.

And I don't think we've ever discussed this, but I think everybody must know. Jesse is played by twins whose names are Charlotte and Vivian Cable, and this is like a moment where Jesse has more lines and so I wanted to just shout out those little twinsies. They are very cute, and Rollins is like very sketched out by a random man giving her daughter a toy. And then Jesse drops the hammer and goes, yeah, the man told

And she didn't answer him. He just smiled, tied.

Her up, cut her clothes, sexually assaulted her, bring her with cigarettes.

Ugh.

When I first saw this, I thought it was going to be two crimes. Like I feel like a fool. I totally thought it was going to be like two Dueling crimes. Like I was really, even though I've seen this episode before, I was like shocked it was him. Yeah, this is a I.

Mean, this episode's delivered like two this podcast had started when this episode aired. This is like an episode.

Yeah.

So he she says he choked her until she'd almost pass out. So this guy's like very much torturing her for fun. And then before he left, he asked for her debit card on the code. Then he came back and took one of her stuffed animals, and Rollins is like it wasn't a white dog, was it, and like, yeah, bitch, it actually was. She shows a picture because she has a picture of the stuffy on her phone and Libby goes, yeah, that's Daisy, and so I guess her stuffed animals named Daisy.

Are fucking talking to.

It's Keys, the guy from Wednesday's Child who has all the sets of keys and moves everybody's cars.

We just talked to him.

We just met this character like four episodes ago on our podcast, not in the run of the show, and he's played by Andre de heartbreaking because I would have loved to try to get Andre Deshields, you know, but.

It happens.

We do love keys, We do love keys, and you know Andrea Shields. And I will say it again, even though I said in the other episode his Tony Award winning speech is very inspirational and if you need a boost in your spirit, I would watch it.

And I know we have our casting mole that listens. Let's get Andre to Shields in season twenty.

Five when things pick back up, Let's get him.

On yeah, bigger portion. In Key, something happened Keys Whitnest.

This is a crime.

Let's get Keys like, actually, you know most of he's all been circumstantial here, but basically what happens here is he goes, why are you messing with Keys again? Which I love because we're supposed to like remember Keys from multiple seasons ago. And Finn's like, you used a stolen debit card last night, and he's like, I didn't hurt anyone. I'm just trying to survive. And the guy's like, he only let me have fifty bucks. I'll give it back.

So this guy and Keys Knowskes has been in this city for the decade.

Keys meets all kinds and if someone's freaking out Keys, this guy is freaky.

So he goes. This guy had me use the ATM takeout cash.

And then made me go buy quote a bunch of crazy stuff at the hardware store, zip ties, rope, duct tape, oh, and a hand torch.

Cool.

This guy obviously has a thing for fire and burning, as we've established. At the hospital, Rollins is calling around, but it's a Saturday. No one will tell her where the fuck Henry Messer is or acting like it's confidentiality, like they it feels like it would be public record that he was released into the public, but I don't know.

Libby?

And she goes sometimes to get patients to open up, Please don't tell me they've released him and then live in Rolins share a look. So now at the Messner's home, they're banging on the door. No one's answering. Neighbors haven't seen hide er hair of these people since yesterday.

They bust in.

It's a mess, shit smashed. There is blood splattered everywhere. Pretty quickly, we see the legs of a little boy in a pool of blood, which is fucked up like we have not seen that many times. And this is like a five year old boy. Cat looks terrified, like she looks truly. I don't know what episode this is for Cat, but she's look, Oh god, this is not what I'm used to I forgot what department she came from, but I don't think it was dead little boys in a pool of blood. So Amanda finds the step mom

Do you know who Big Anne is? Though?

Of course? Okay, so Big Ann rest in peace. There's an amazing clip of her going around where she's talking to somebody about a new guy she's dating. She goes, well, he just got out off to twenty five years for murder. Anyway, he's buying me a puppy, and it's like the funniest clip, and we just played it with my siblings and we just kept going for murder.

So when I was when I was.

Writing this, I wrote, the mom Stepmom's in the kitchen, murdered. The dad is dead, face down in what looks like a very elaborate breakfast spread. And then Kat goes there's another body and lives like, well, the sister would be thirteen, and Cat's like no, this is a little boy like five, and they're like, okay, this guy is on a spree and it started here.

So the bodies are.

We find out at the top of AC two that the bodies are out of rigor. Time of death is within forty eight hours. So basically the timeline is, he murders his whole family Friday morning, assaults Libby Friday night. On Saturday morning, he goes to the park where he approaches Jesse. Also, the gun safe in the house is wide open and empty, so now this kid is armed, and we have no idea how many even fucking guns this dad had, so who knows how dangerous this kid is.

Are we supposed to be worried?

Cat's like, no, worry, there's gonna be a twenty four to seven police presence outside. Don't leave the house. And the mom is like, listen, I was friends with Holly, the stepmom. She was terrified of Henry. She tried to tell Tom, and honestly, the dad is to blame for all of this, Like the dad never thought he should be sent away. And then the dad's like, after eight years, he's fixed, Let's bring him home and bring him around my tiny son. Who how could that kid? How could

It's so crazy.

And it's also weird because they pammed to the stepmom in and she had like a big smile on her face, like they were putting on a show for court. But to her friends, she's like, this kid terrifies me, and I don't really want him in my house. Kat wonders, Oh, is that why he had a gun? And Holly was like Tom thought they just needed to show Henry enough love and he'd be fine, but Holly insisted on protection.

Well, what happened.

He was like pretty quick, like I don't understand why you need to force this kid to have a job.

He's obviously trouble.

Like, can he just not have a process, Like he's been locked away for eight years, he can't have a moment to Breathe totally agree, And I think it's absolutely because of this dad being a lot like the dad in like the Pika episode or a lot of these other episodes where they're like, everything's fine, everything's fine, You're a normal eighteen year old, Go get a job, like that's yeah, exactly, Like he's not.

What would he do? I mean, I don't know. I feel like he needs a lot.

You take him to the zoo first, take him to the beach. Why don't you just like work on your familial love and relationship, take a week off work? You amtrak freak, like, I just this dad is outside of the ones that abuse and murder is my least favorite. He is the worst dad of yeah, the whole or you know who the episode popular that Dad's Bad where he's like happy that his daughter got raped instead of being a slut, because then it's not her fault.

That was a bad dad. Oh yeah, a couple bad dads.

These two dads should go have a fucking meeting in hell together.

Fuck yeah.

So rollins or somebody asks, well, what has he been up to? And the friend Charlotte is like, he's been bragging to Ruby about taking driving lessons, and the mom is like, Holly didn't like that. She liked it better when he just stayed in his room for days playing video games. At least like she knew where he was and like he wasn't hurting anybody. Ruby says, they could hear him talking through the wall in the headset, but

Ruby says, why did they? Great question?

So now we're at the Heslin Juvenile Psychiatric Facility in Yonkers. So he didn't make it to Vermont. He's somewhere local doctor Mackie. We're talking to her, Henry's BFF, and she's like, this is every psychiatrist's worst nightmare. For five years, we gave him the tools to get better. His family petitioned for his release. He demonstrated he was no longer a threat. He passed all the exams, he had a perfect record.

Is like, but have you heard the theory?

Like this is a classic Rowlins where I think this is what makes Melinda annoyed with her, where she acts like she's an expert more than people that are experts. She's like, but have you heard the theory that group therapy is ineffective for psychopaths because it just helps them learn how to fake being mentally healthy. And she's like, yes, Rowins, I'm aware, and I've looked for that. And she says, no one has ever fooled me. And an entire staff before.

You're never gonna get out of here. And he's like, that's not fair.

I'm not the same as Henry, and so Finn's like, take a guess, and suddenly this guy has tons of info. He goes, maybe check with my older sister Cora. They hooked up on a visit here once, and Cora always reminds me of the Woman and the Poor Woman in the Dean Kine episode. So now we're at Cora's apartment. Music is blaring, live a cat and a team bust the door down.

No one's there.

But then one second later Cora comes home and is like, what the hell And they're like down on the ground, and she's on the ground with like a very wild, multi level haircut, and she's like, they're like, is Henry Messner here? And she goes, yeah, he's my boyfriend. And then they start going through his like meticulously folded piles of clothes and she goes, don't go through his stuff.

He doesn't like that. Don't you need a warrant? And lives like, bitch, your boyfriend is armed and dangerous.

She goes, He's not how you think he is. He's a gentle soul. His demons are gone. Okay, we'll see. So now Cora is an interrogation wood and blinds not bars and concrete, and she says, Henry just needs to breathe without people all up in his grill. He needs some time. And she tells them that he likes to be by the water, he likes to go to the park and watch kids play, and that he was at morning Side Park yesterday and they're like, how do you

The mall all units.

So now the cop car is there, but where's the cop They popped the trunk. He's in there alive, Thank god. I don't know why Henry wouldn't just stab him for shits, but he's zip tied and duct taped the house down.

He obviously I don't know, but also how embarrassing.

You're a grown ass cop and the kid without hurting you or injuring you, got you tied up.

I mean, I guess he has a bunch of guns, but like, how did this like teen outsmart and overpower a cop. It's very confusing. So now they answer the house. The mom is on the ground of the kitchen. It very much echoes when they found Holly, who was found dead in the kitchen, and the woman looks pretty dead. But Rollins finds a pulse upstairs. Cat here's screaming and it's Charlotte Ruby's friend who's like tied up in the shower, and she says it was Henry. Henry took Ruby and

Huge jump?

Not sure how Rollins figured that out, but here we are. They pull up to this closed amusement park and boom. The Volvos parked right outside the amusement park is locked, but they could have easily squeezed through the gate. There's like give in the lock on the gate. Everyone is searching this place for Henry. Rollins spots a fun house and once again has serial killer intuition and just knows

And so now she's in a witch wil.

I know this is TV. Obviously they have to enter alone. They of course they're not going to wait for backup. They are heroes. But a fun house is the number one worst place, Like I can't imagine a worst place it is, And it's also not as funny as the haunted house that like Finn and Munch went in roy Pace and that was like funny, Like this is truly like from the movie US, Like, I don't get out of there.

I know it is truly from the movie Else, like why would you go into a fun house which is just known for being mirrors, corners, nooks where people can hide and jump out at any moment, literally the worst.

So she's in there.

I remember watching this when it first came out and being like, oh, this is kind of a neat scene though, like where you can't tell where he is and you can't tell where Rollins is, like because it's so many mirrors, so they filmed it kind of cool. We hear Henry talking to Ruby telling him how the parents brought him there before she was born, and she was like, let me go, please, I won't tell, and he says she's always been a lying, little tattletale.

He doesn't believe her. Rollins interrupts.

Henry has a gun on Rollins and he's like, you're even prettier up close, and your daughters look just like you, and she's like, you haven't changed a bit.

Henry's still a freaky creep.

So now she goes drop the gun and he goes, it's not like I'm going to hurt her, And it's like, why would anybody think that, like you are literally a fully murderous psychobab.

She's like your number one enemy.

Yeah yeah, you've been holding on to hate for Ruby, probably forever.

Yeah, So Rollins goes, why don't you let Ruby go?

We'll stay here, just us too, Because Rollin's is like, this guy's eighteen.

I can flirt with him, it's legal.

She always uses her flirtations to get what she needs. He's like, you're not mad about Jesse. He goes, I wouldn't hurt her. She wasn't on my list. So this guy has like an Adam Sandler style like list of people or what movie.

Is that Happy Madison?

Happy Madison talking about Billy Madison. Somebody has a list of all the people they want to kill. A Steve Boucemy I had almost everything right. Happy Madison is like his production company anyway, So Rollin says, still, a mom has to protect her kids, and Henry's like, not mine.

She had me locked up.

And Ruby's like, that wasn't mom's fault or dad's, and he goes, yeah, it was your fault. And I wasn't sorry when mom died in that car crash slash Hope Davis was unavailable because she was making the movie Love Life, the television show. Ruby is crying and he calls her a cry baby. Rollin swoops in and says, I'm the one who put you you away after you shot my partner. I made sure you got locked up. So then he points a gun at her. But it's still a funhouse mirror,

Storm the funhouse.

Rollins is not responding to the radio, which is making Live really frustrated, but then she finally does and she says Ruby is coming out with Henry's gun, and so Ruby comes out gun up, is like, don't shoot me. They grab her and she says Henry didn't want to talk to me anymore. He just wanted to talk to Rollins. And now some guy in a technical unit is like, we got state police and Nassau County Police en route.

How experienced is your detective?

And lives like very don't even question the experience of my detectives, you little punk. Plus this is now downgraded because he's disarmed, and they're like, yeah, unless he took Rollins's gun, we have no idea what's going on in there. So they're like, well, it'll be kind of tough to sneak up on someone in a house of mirror. So the guy goes, I'm gonna try to sneak some cameras in there. She keeps trying to radio Rollins, who won't respond, and then finally she's like, give us a few minutes.

And he's like, why would you protect me?

And she's like, because I remember you as a little boy in the kitchen eating strawberries. Call back to last episode. He goes, you flinched when I walked past, but you didn't leave, and she says I was worried about you, and even now I don't want you to die. And Rollins comes out finally with Henry cuffed, and Henry's like, I couldn't help myself.

Just ask her.

I'm not of sound mind like he's already talking like the fucking joker. Liv's like, what the fuck? And Rollins is like, I'm sorry. I just love playing Mindhunter. I can't stop myself. I love to noodle around in the head of these creepy psychos. She's like, this spree is all he's been thinking about for eight years, and wherever he ends up, they need to throw away the key. So top of act four, this seems like could be the end of the episode.

But there's more.

Top of act four, Henry's being evaluated, but alas our Hoong days are long gone at this point. So it is mister Noodle aka Olivia's therapist, doctor Peter Lindstrom. He's been in seventeen episodes. I didn't realize so many, but he is quite recurring in these later seasons, some of the mid teens to the twenties. And he says, he's not there to judge you, Henry, I'm just trying to figure out how we got here. And Henry says, four

So then Lindstrom comes out to talk.

To Livin Rollins and Careesi and he's like, whoever let this kid out should have their license revoked.

Cariese's like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hindsight's twenty twenty doc is he competent to stand trial? And the doc is like, it's complicated, starring Meryl Streep and Alec Baldwin. He's like, so they're basically like does he know right from wrong? Can he aid in his defense, and Lindstrom is like, hello, I'm a professional, I know what the legal parameters are. But he's also saying that Henry has two standard deviations away from the normal range for callous on emotional behavior when he was ten. A

And I'm with Rollins.

I hate this therapist in this moment, I go, Benson, you better find another therapist. He's not good because what you want to be soft on this guy?

He's just killed multiple people.

Even earlier he shot a cop like the I think the States should be sued for letting him out, And I think this therapist fucking sucks. Like why are we making excuses for the psychopath that is going to continue to murder? I don't get it.

Here's the thing.

If he goes to jail, he's just gonna murder in jail. If he goes to a psychiatric facility, they'll just keep him drugged up and he won't be able to hurt anybody.

They can't get him drugged up in prison, maybe I don't know, because he can murder people there too, Like I don't understand. Yeah, yeah, he keep him in solitary confinement, Like fuck it, Like again than the born psychopath that's like poor Henry, poor Henry as his daughter, as his sister, Ruby is getting the shit beat out of her and now is dead and they're still just like but Henry's kind of crazy. We gotta take care of him. I'm like in a twilight zone with this thing.

Yeah yeah, yeah, but okay, So Lindstrom is like, I know you want to see him punished, but sending a mentally ill person to prison, I've seen prisons where there's one psychologist for five hundred men. It's like the Dark Ages. And Carisey's like, all right, we just competent or not, Like I gotta know, like what's up? This is black and white for cares And He's like, he is competent, but the question is the problem? Like you asking me

How you were brought in?

What do you mean we brought you here to say if he's competent or not. If you had a problem with the question, you shouldn't have come in.

But I think he's saying there's shades of gray here. It's not just black and white. And you know, I see where he's coming from in his like as a psychiatric professional.

Anyway, Rollin's is about to break down. She's like, I gotta go get some fresh air. Lisa's with her. They have to go outside together. Caresee's like, I'll go with her.

Lindstrom asks Live how she's She goes, it's been a tough year, I think, just referencing the pandemic. And she goes, I'm lucky. Noah's okay, my squad is healthy. And then Lindstrom goes and what about Stabler? You said he reappeared out of nowhere and Live goes, yeah, and it's been a lot to process. And he's like, well, I can see why you want an appointment, and I really look forward to it. That's such a weird thing to say.

A weird thing to say.

Lives like yeah, cool, me too, bro, and then she just bounces right out of the room. She does not want to talk to Doc mister Noodle anymore. In the competency hearing, Lindstrom is on the stand once again trying to color the shades of gray between the law and psychiatry and the judge like everyone else is like black or white, competent or not, and he goes yes, and they excuse his ass, so he's out of there. Henry's lawyer is April Andrews, who is played by Aaron Anderson.

Anyway.

The judge rules that Henry is capable of participating in his own defense, and his lawyer is like, okay, we'll be pleading not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect, and then she kind of starts to argue her case and the judge is like save it for the jury, and Henry like so creepily goes, you're being rude to my lawyer. Let her finish, and then he stands up starts heading for the judge. The slowest bailiffs on the planet are not moving at all. This fucking kid grabs

It's weird.

Rollin's of all people, just like doesn't buy the mental health part of it. But she's also all about getting into the heads of these psychos and finding out what's wrong, like what's up with them? So then cut to Rollins marching into a cell to talk to Henry, who is drugged up. Eyes are open, but he's like totally catatonic. She says, I know you can hear me. And when I told you I didn't want you to die, I lied.

I'll kill you myself. And he doesn't respond at all.

But as she leaves, he gets that sick, little half smile that he had at the beginning, and that's wolf baby. But also, this guy would never get out again, you never know. Maybe that's what she's fighting against. Maybe she's like, if he goes to a mental health facility, there's a chance in thirty years he'll get out again. And when he's like forty eight and he'll still kill But I just feel like he would be like remanded for the rest of his life.

Like I don't think that.

I'm more having an issue because I've watched every episode of in just like that, and I cannot place this woman or this character Ainslie, Like I can't. Yeah, I say she's in a few I keep looking at the photos and I just do not know. I don't know who she is. I can't figure it out. I'm going to watch the episodes again because it's killing me. It's killing me, so stay tuned for that.

Yeah, lock him up, Lock him up, Lock him up.

I don't know anything about the case this is based on, so looking forward to your rendition. But before we get to the crime, Lisa, I just want to remind everybody that we are going on tour.

We've already we've been on tour. We're going on tour tour of this episode. We're in the middle of the tour.

I am not exactly sure where we are when this episode comes out, but I believe it will be the October Range, Buffalo, New Haven, Burlington, Cleveland, Boston, Boston. We need your asses. If you live in Rhode Island, if you live anywhere remotely close to Boston, please drive in and come see us. We got to fill the Wilber at least to what do you say, half three quarter capacity?

I want it so big, I want it full.

Well, let's okay, Toronto, Detroit, Pittsburgh, Salt Lake City, Chicago, Park West. That means a lot to me. And then we'll be back in Madison, Minneapolis. We're going to Milwaukee, Saint Louis, Sacramento, New York, and Philly. So yeah, but Chicago's part of a festival. Yeah, And the New York show is selling up pretty quickly, so grab your tickets to that.

Sacramento. You were like one of the littest shows we ever did.

So if every single one of you is not back, I don't know enough to start knocking on doors. But I'm very excited Chicago too. We need you guys to come out Chicago. This is going to be our only show in Chicago for the rest of the year. So all of our Rosemont gals that came out last year, all of our people that have come out to other venues, please come see us there, because that's a big venue too, right, Lisa, Oh,

My god, remember when I poked in a garbage can? We went to that like rave party? All right?

Sure do okay, stay tuned for crime. Listen to our ads. We'll see you in a few seconds. So this episode is based on the Willie basket case, and I want to say we've researched so many crimes for this podcast. This was the most hard for me to organize because this person has committed so many crimes.

Oh my god, they're all.

Kind of overlapping, so I would be putting it in the order, and then I'm like, wait, did he do this to this this person or this person or that like.

It truly was so confusing because.

There are so many crimes and sentences and overlapping things. So you know, I did my best, but truly, I bet I fucked up here because I kept switching and being like, wait, did he puncture this one's lung or did he gash this one's forehead because they both aren't Like. It was so many crimes, so many articles. But I did get lucky because this all happened in New York and so there's a lot of great news and publications there. So Willie boskin he is a self proclaimed monster. He's

And yes, that is nine. I said nine.

And you know, when there's legislation and laws that happen after you as an example, you know you're bad. He once said that he killed for end quote, for the experience. He was a child growing up in Harlem, and as early as second grade he was trouble.

Trouble did that even sound lake Taylor Swift? No, not at all? Okay, so like it.

As a small, small child, he threw a typewriter out of a third story window and missed a teacher by like not a lot of space. And you know, of course, classic questions arise about this kind of person. Did the

But also what I was just gonna say, that's the kind of thing that always gets live.

Yeah, like you know, yeah, yeah, one hundred percent. And of course, in the classic sense of like criminals, oftentimes he was abused.

He was sexually abused by his grandfather.

So at age nine he was put in his first reform school and since then he's only been free a total of eighteen months in his life, and that's not consecutively. That is included with like escapes in different parole or like getting let out. But he's only been in the free world a total of eighteen months in his whole life past the age of nine.

That's so so fucked up. It is so when he went.

In at nine, he says, you know, like he was just a bad kid, but he left with all the lessons of how to commit crimes. So he was at the Brookwood Center for Boys from nineteen seventy four to nineteen seventy seven. And it is a maximum security institution and he was in there with murders, rapists, and arm robbers.

So I don't know.

He was found to be very precocious and empathetic though, which I have a hard time believing.

But that is I guess what the staff found.

They said that he was warm and did have potential, but he was there for stabbing people, so I don't understand where the empathy comes out of. And he's quoted in the New York Times that he stabbed people because in quotes, because they made me mad, So I don't know. Honick says he was hardly ever disciplined, and that caused him to get more and more like, you know, aggressive.

That is what he was up to. But this actually reminded me.

So I have like a little joke about jail that I do in my set, and in Sacramento, this dude was like, oh, I've been to prison, and he was in prison for a long time, and he was telling us the whole audience that he would take bottles of listrine for commissary, pour it out and then make sweet and sour sauce and sell teriyaki and sweet and sour sauce throughout the prison and that's how he made money.

And we were also intrigued.

And then someone from the back had also been to prison, so then she started like how'd you make or like asking questions that you would only know from someone on the inside, and then he admitted.

Finally, he goes, I also sold.

Meth so so your money just wasn't just from the sauces. And then we took a photo after the show and we got into a prison post and it is so hard, like it's gonna be my workout is how to like hold a prison post? What's the prison post? It's like one leg down. It's kind of like a boy band pose. It's like one leg down on your knee and one standing, but the knee never hits the floor and then you you hold your arm out and then you hold hands in the middle.

But he spoke Russian and we bonded.

And then after God, another dude came up to me and said, oh, I spent this many years in prison.

That guy doesn't know shit.

And then there was another girl who was like, I didn't like prison, like this guy, I was there for years, and I was like, I did not, I've only seen hell yeah, I know it is like Sacramento. His heart as fuck. And I was, you know, I said this like in the last episode. But everyone told me like not to go outside and to go for walks because

Poppables, no way, popples.

Yeah wait, that's actually so genius of that guy, because prison food's so gross that I bet everybody just wanted sweet and sour sauce to like slather it on their food and make it like, you.

Know, sweet and sour sauce. You can kind of eat anything with that stuff all over it.

Yeah, he said he worked in the kitchen, so he was able to like take ingredients and do it. But there's tiktoks of people in jail doing tiktoks of like the food that they should try, and they go, that's bustin' and it's like cheesy ramen sandwiches and like all the ingredients, and I watch them make prison food on these like, wow, it's a category of the Internet.

So I don't know.

That was a little aside, and I apologize, and we are back to this guy last night off he drove a truck into a social worker, Okay, and that's the thing. It's like, wait, so he's in there and he's blaming the authorities in this place and we learned to be bad. But then also it seemed like this there weren't any rules for him and he was able to do what he wanted. And so I'm imagining this like the boy from the episode what's the episode with fucking.

Oh Trials when he drives the car. Yeah, but is that the Elizabeth Banks the Julie Bowen one? I always fuck it up?

Okay, there are I hate I hate vegetables. They're just they're gross candy. I'm with you, kid, So it's just it's really wild. So he got released in nineteen seventy seven, and so he was fourteen when released, So all of this that I just said was before he was fourteen years of age.

Oh my god.

So they sent him off to a group home in Brooklyn. He got a job as a maintenance worker, and the supervisor at Brookwood told Honig that was gonna kill somebody one of these days, and it's like duh. So he goes to Harlem and then him and his cousin, the Judas, roam the subways looking for drunks to rob. So March nineteenth, nineteen seventy eight, he shot and killed one person in the subway system with a twenty two caliber pistol, and then eight days later he shot and killed another person.

Jesus.

So June nineteen seventy eight, he went in to serve his time in custody and everyone flipped the fuck out, So that led the governor at the time, Hugh Carey, to win passage of a new law letting juvenile offenders be tried as adults for murder. So now defendants can be as young as thirteen and the sentence can range from seven years to life. And so New York toughened

And that was seventy eight.

Was like when the subway was like at the height of being like thunderedome Like the subway at that time I think was really really fucked up.

Yeah.

Colin Quinn and his show is it New York Stories, or the book that accompanies it is The Coloring Book, and it's incredible. But he said, yeah, it's wild to see people now on iPhones and iPads in there. He's like, I would have to hide my Metro card in my sock. Yeah, you know, like you couldn't have anything.

My parents lived in the city at that time and they never took the subway, and so when I moved to the city, you know, twenty five years later, they were like, you're not taking the subway, are you? And I was like just seven times a day, Like I just take it everyone where I go every day. My mom couldn't believe it, but it was like she just had moved to the suburbs and didn't really realize that it had gotten cleaned up, you know.

But yeah, you know, you're bad when laws are made for you.

So he was at the Goshen Youth Facility and this dude bashed two guards in the head with a mop handle, and then he also temporarily escaped. Honig said his letters became more and more angry, like they kept in touch, and he realized and said he mentally prepared himself that he's going to be in prison for the rest of his life. But December nineteen eighty three, a few days before his twenty first birthday, he was released. And then March nineteenth and nineteen eighty four, he was arrested for

Three to life. So he went in.

But even that mugging, that seems like such a low sentence for a repeat offender. But again, even as like a young adult, he set fire to his cells multiple times, he would attack the guards that would come in to put out the fires.

And he also didn't look dangerous.

They said, you know, he was five nine, one hundred and fifty pounds and he's handsome, dimpled face is what they say.

And I can confirm he is hot. I did find one photo of him.

He is sexy, and hopefully we'll get the rights to that photo to put in our Instagram and you can go look at him or not. But I would say he's probably one of the top cutest criminals we have covered one hundred percent, and he had a genius IQ and at times like I think it was the La Times. One of the articles I was reading compared him to Hannibal Lecter from Silence of the Lambs, and I had to include that because Kara, of course loves Silence of

Is like a national honor society. That's crazy.

Yeah, So he got into that, and then he was released in nineteen eighty three, which seems wilder, and then got a job at an aerospace company and now back to a twist. And then immediately he was charged with molesting his girlfriend's daughter. But then the girlfriend helped him escape, smuggled him a revolver, and there was a police shootout, and his final act came March seventh, nineteen eighty five, when he used his two last bullets to kill himself and his girlfriend. Oh my god, and now I have

So it's three generations. It's a cycle.

Yeah, And when Willy was growing up, and whenever he asked about his father, his mother and grandmother would just say he's a bad man and you're.

Just like him.

And so yeah, he never met his father because he was in prison for the double murder at the time Willy was born.

And that's so fucked.

Yeah, like you've just been told you're bad, You're gonna be bad.

Yeah, this is like so complicated, so sad, so vish. I can't even I don't even know the right words to fully dissect all this. So, you know, back to Willy. While he's in custody, he stabbed a prison guard and then was facing twenty five to life for the attack, which happened when he was being interviewed by a journalist who's helping him write his autobiography.

And he's twenty six.

He's already serving this like twenty five twenty years to life, you know, sentence for assault and arson, which have nothing to do.

While he's there already.

These more like it's just wild and so he grabbed the shoulder of this guard spun him around and then stabbed him in the chest. And then he jumped on a table and said surround me, surround me, but nobody surrounded him, and all the other inmates just backed away and left. So he tried to create.

Some kind of like ryo, and everyone's like, we hate yo, so you're not even like yeah.

So he's in.

He's the New York State's most violent inmate. And he has a special cell that's stripped of everything. No light fixtures because he has swallowed those in the past, so he can't have lights. The guards aren't even allowed to speak to him. And there's a dark quote coming up next that is the only noise Willie Boskett is going to hear, and that is the sound of his toilet flushing.

To continuously risk themselves.

But he was fighting for them to stop this one restraint because they chain him to his cell door each time he's permitted out, so from the in from the outside, and he like puts his you know, arms and legs through and they shackle him to the door, and then they open the door and unshackle him and shackle him again because they couldn't trust him at all. And I understand why he feels dehumanized by this, but I also understand the guards are being like they're getting their lungs punctured,

I wonder if you.

Say it like that, w e ND we talked about that facility before.

I feel like we knew somebody else that's there. Yeah, I wonder are you searching in our drive? I'm like, let's see who else is there?

Mark David Chapman, the man who murdered John Lennon, was transferred there in twenty twelve. Harvey Weinstein, whoa after he was convicted, he was returned.

Oh wait, that's wrong.

Wait it says it has him under notable inmates for Wendy, So I don't know he.

Was there for some point. Yeah, so he's still there.

And one time he said end quote I'll haunt this damn system. He has a quote where he said that he's going to throw balls of fire back into the devil's face. So he's definitely ready for hell. If you want to know more about him, there is a book called All God's Children, The Basket Family and the American Tradition of Violence, and it's written by Fox Butterfield, and it's about the root causes of the system of violence, from slavery in the South to the dissolution in Harlem.

Yeah, and how things happen and how you're raising this guy was a fucking genius if one person had just helped him, taken an interest in him, like, you know, helped him focus his attention towards something other than violence and crime and telling him that he was a piece of shit. I wonder how things might have turned out differently, But one.

Hundred percent, Yeah, it's I tried reading a lot of the stuff from this book. It was I would say over my head, like I was not able to like fully connect it. And in the show notes that the La Times article really touched on this book and the lineage of just the history of crime and violence that he was raised in, and so there's definitely more to explore with.

Yeah, I just h but I had no idea the middle of New York. Yeah, and this is the guy where Juvenile.

I mean, that's like we've sort of debated that in many SVU episodes, like Trying Kids as Adults and like the episode Juvenile where one kid is going to get charged even though he didn't do the majority of it because he's fourteen versus thirteen, you know, or whatever the little arbitrary cut off lines of age are.

But that's crazy.

This guy is like who put that legislature, legislature out there, but thank you for telling us all that. Let's roll right into our post mortem, baby wow. So that concludes the two part arc that you've all been clamoring for about a psychotic eight year old that becomes a psychotic eighteen year old um or ten year old to eighteen year old.

I thought that Dad, he deserves to die, and I don't feel bad for him. I just feel bad for his son and wife that had to die because.

Of him, because of his inability to look at the truth or taken any information about his son's condition.

What it's really fucked up. There's really nothing to say.

I hate that Dad obviously shouldn't have been let out that the psychiatric place should be held responsible.

He's like, what the fuck? I know, because it's like everybody, I don't know.

I guess it's like we just placed so much stock in someone being a child. Whereas it's like Ted Bundy was charming, the fucking kemp and Kemper was funny, was charming. These guys can be charming, like you can fool people like it's just it's wild how the doctor was like, no one's ever fooled me. And a whole staff before It's like, this is the best psychopath ever, We've met, the biggest, Like he's the best one.

Like, I don't know.

I feel like there had to have been signs, even in the courtroom when he gives that little like dead eyed half smile.

I just tried to do it, and I truly looked like I was.

I needed Trey McDougall to be there to testify. But he's probably in prison for murder.

He's in prison for murdering another psychopath.

He did the opposite of what this dad did.

He took matters into his own fucking hands and save the world from a psych a tiny psycho.

Yeah, I don't even remember.

Oh that a Conscience is that episode if you want to check that out.

Yes, Conscience hard to spell, easy to watch, great video, great great episode.

Ypsod of television, sad crime. But listen, you can't keep attacking guards. You will be in a silent room with no friends. Like, I don't know what to tell you. Yeah.

I do think it's cool too that the show like got him back and was able to like do kind of like a eight years later type of episode. That's like a neat thing that you don't see in television a lot. So it's a cool it's a cool thing. But I love that Amanda Rollins.

She'll flirt with a child, with a teen, with a grown person, she'll flirt Oh yeah, a.

Psychopath personality disorder. I mean she does not care. She will flirt with you like you are getting a swipe from Amanda Rollins for sure. And I mean it was a stupid move, but I thought it was cool. They did a scene in a funhouse. I thought it was a cool cinematically. I liked the funhouse scene, I.

Thought, honestly, making me really bummed now that the we're not going to get new episodes.

I know, I know what.

The whole time at the beach, I kept thinking of the sv episode about the lifeguard, about the powerful life guard.

I mean, Dark's the most powerful lifeguard. But it was so funny.

So then our friends came later to the beach and one of them was like, wow, it looks so calm and nice, and I was like someone was saved a half hour ago, Like what are you talking about? The waves are insane. I've never been dragged down like this in my life. I was fully dragged and spun under the waves multiple times, hitting the sand like it was nuts out there. But I had my goggles, thank you to my father, So I was ready for it.

But it was not.

You were wearing goggles at the beach, of course I was. I don't think I've ever seen that.

Oh why would I want the saltwater splashing into my sensitive eyes when I want goggles?

I guess because like when I go to the beach, like when I go to the ocean, I kind of just like wade in and maybe I'll dunk my head under. But I'm not like swimming the way I'm swimming in a pool as much.

No, I'm trying to jump in those waves. I'm trying to ride the waves bad.

Yeah, do I know your boogie boys, I'm the Sean wife of the rock ways.

You sh right up the last. I love that. But I just that's funny.

Like, write me and tell me if you consider goggles to be a beach thing or a pool thing or both.

I could.

I brought them into the pool too, and my friend laughed on my face. But because that was chic, that was more chic. It was like a sexy hotel, no children allowed.

You're also basically talking right into a plot line from the episode of this from this episode of SVU. You were basically almost dragged under like that little kid who died at the beach while the psycho just watched, Oh my god, Yeah, did you let the ocean take what it wanted and then it just spit you back out?

Kind of because I'm a good knock on wood, I'm a I'm a good swimmer. Yeah I knew, Yeah, I knew the lifeguards were on. It was fin What happened was so our friends, there's two Julia's they were they were at the place where they were riding the waves, and that's where I wanted to get.

But anytime I tried to get.

To them to ride the waves, I was swushed back and thrown so far. So it was like a forty five minute excursion to try to get to them and just being beaten up. My tit's falling out. People lost body goggles askew. But I know I don't go into the ocean without goggles.

And you know what, it's crazy that I'm even I hate saltwater in my eyes, like I hate it. So that's why I'm kind of like when I go in I'm just more of like a waiter in the ocean, and I'm not like I don't I never as a kid, I never wore goggles in the ocean.

Well that's because your dad didn't steal things from the pool Lost and found.

You know, I wish, I can only wish. Yeah, so I have lots of goggles because my dad is a thief.

Wait, and we didn't even get to this, but you did a big surprise for your parents. You want you surprise them on your birthday?

I shir did? It really works out great?

If you don't watch Lisa's if you don't follow glitter Cheese on Instagram, what, I don't know what you're doing with your life. But you can see a video of it there of her surprising your parents, and it's very sweet.

And I'm on TikTok. I'm trying to get viral. I'm trying to get famous on Ti TikTok. And I'm you know, it's embarrassing to say out loud, but it is the truth.

Yeah, there you have it.

I'll use my player path Yeah more psychopath Get ready for segments, guys, Get ready, because I am I'm trying to get famous on TikTok. I'm watching all these other people. I'm like, I think I'm funnier than these guys. Of course, watching a woman shake a salad in the front seat of her car on a lunch break.

I'm watching a woman eat one o TikTok is so weird. What goes viral like this.

One girl, Bella Porch is famous, famous on TikTok, and literally her first video is like from her just like wiggling her nose and crossing her eyes to a song and she's and she's hot, you know, like that's it. It's like wild. And now she's literally like a millionaire and she has songs and like a huge career.

Get ready, guys, Get ready, guys, that's what I'm doing. I'm gonna do it. You know, think I used there. You don't think there's twenty five segments coming out of my parents home.

You're wrong.

Watch out, guy, I'm heading for TikTok stardom.

No.

I was getting really dragged down. It was wild.

But also what's nice is you don't want to lose your sunglasses in the ocean, you know, because you could get hit by a wave. But you get the sun protection too. With the goggles like it's a little dimmer. Oh you know, yeah, because I have had my sunglasses fly off.

I think that's what I do is I wear sunglasses because I figure, oh, those will stop me any air and water from splashing in my eyes. But I don't really go under that much in the ocean because of the salt water. I don't like it in my eyes. So maybe I'm a goggle girl. Maybe you've convinced me. Yeah, I gotta get Rosy a new pair the speedo's I got or keep falling off. Her hair's too like silky? Is your hair too silky for goggles? Call this number below.

They just keep falling down and she doesn't and then she.

They you have to keep them tight, but then she doesn't like that they're tight and they're making a crease around her eyes.

You know you can't win.

Let's get into our Do you have any final thoughts?

Jerry Springer? Do I have final thoughts on the beach or or anything?

Psychopaths so beath children being locked up forever?

Who who can know?

I definitely think we have to be careful about kids. We brand a psychopath because, like you know, my son will giggle and be having a great time and then just slash me with his nails in the face. I don't think he's a psychopath, you know. People tell me that's age appropriate, So we should just be careful who we do decide to call a psycho, even though I've met many children that are riding the line, baby.

But they have to take the test. But this gu right into our own.

The thing with my parents' surprise, this is what I wanted to say. Oh yeah, I think visiting family three days is perfect an event with three days, that's the secret number. You come in, you're surprised, they can't believe they're seeing you. We have a great dinner, we play some game. You know, I had such fun times with my sister, like it is, and then you leave while they're still wanting more.

Yeah.

Day two is like a fun first full day solid. By day three you're like, I'm getting a little sick of it, and then you you're out.

Yeah, yeah, it was really fun.

And our poor cat is so old now though her she can't retract her clause anymore. Oh no, like, so they're just out, they're just out, and then they keep getting stuck in blankets and then she like howls and you have to unhook her.

It's sad poor mania.

Yeah, all right, go into this go, let's go.

Okay, So this week, you guys know, I'm like a little bit obsessed with psychopaths. And for this week's what would Sister Peg Do, which is our weekly segment where we direct you towards a blog, post, a podcast, an organization.

Uh.

In this case, we're gonna direct you towards a book that just something to give you a little bit more knowledge about what we.

Talked about in today's episode.

And I read a book that I really enjoyed called The psychopath Test, A Journey through the Madness Industry by John Ronson. John Ronson's written a bunch of books that I loved. Also another book called So You've Been Publicly Shamed. He's he almost does like it's like it's more like sociological. I feel like the way he writes books, it's not like I wouldn't. This is like a book about psychopathy that I think is more accessible to those of us that are not scholars, and like it's not a text

Thank you so much, really appreciate that. And next week we will be covering Futility. That's season four, episode twenty two, So please join us, you know, throw us some five stars, send us a nice message, whatever, you know, whatever, We're obsessed with all of you. See us on the road and next week Futility. Bye guys, That's Messed Up as

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our producer KC.

O'Brien, and to our exer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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