Pique w/ Chad Lowe

Of the law and order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories, Done Done.

Welcome to That's Messed Up n SVU podcast. I am Cara Klank and I'm Liza Traeger.

Every week we talk about an episode of SVU, the true crime it's based on. And then we have an incredible guest from every episode.

And now we chat.

We get to hang out like we didn't just FaceTime right before we on.

The Zoom on the Zoom City. We went from FaceTime to Zoom immediately. Yeah, and then not.

To brag, we are going to a pool today, but we deserve it. It's like one hundred degrees. I have no air conditioning. I'm sweating in my little box. It's so messy. I thank god. Our friends are bringing me a dresser today.

Oh my god. So many things are happening for you today, address or a pool exciting.

Yeah, and bleeding from my pussy again yet again. Surprise never ends.

Has it been a month? Has it it flies? Time flies?

Well?

I was watching TV. I was in a hotel watching my SVU, living my best life in freezing air conditioning. And what do I see on my television? Iced tea in a Little Caesar's commercial.

I haven't seen that.

It was awesome. There were some other celebrities in there. I didn't really pay attention. I was like on cloud nine seeing Ice. You know he he needs to keep working, like take a day off, bro, you need But maybe he loves Little Caesar's.

But it was for the stuffed cheese crust pizza. And I would dabble, would I would be you know what I'm gonna tall. You's being crazy right now. I've never had Little Caesar's pizza. Oh did you got Oh you were rich? Maybe? No?

No.

I grew up in an area where I always saw the commercial. I grew up my whole life pizza pizza, Like I remember always hearing the commercial. I never saw one physically. It was like same thing with Sonic. I would see commercials, but they were like in New Jersey, not in Connecticut.

I relate to the Sonic. I never was near a Sonic. I've had it twice now though. But Little Caesar's and where I grew up right near the Blockbuster and five dollars, so it would be like you grab a five dollars and then well, we're we have problems. But my friend and I we would each get our own five dollar pizza and then go to the beach and then eat our own pizza next to each other. And we weren't even smoking weed at the time. We were not drunk. We were just two girls who loved just.

A coming of age story about pizza and friendship. Yeah.

Well, you know, our friend CJ loves pizza. It's like one of his personality trades. He's literally pizza.

I went to see the NBA Finals with CJ a couple nights ago, and a Pizza Hut commercial came on, and like three of his friends turn term and they go, CJ Pizza Hut. Like just the commercial for Pizza Hut came on.

No, don't you get to like I get message I mean we get messaged SVU stuff every day, I would say, but on my own time, I do get like Simpsons My oh my god, Miley Cyrus has a new shirt. It says Miley Cyrus made me realize I'm gay.

I feel like that's my Like I could sue her. I've said that. Yeah, you know. Yes, I was gonna there's a trigger line of merchant Miley Cyrus Inc. That's wild. Wait but what were we talking? Oh, when you know about stuff pizza.

Yeah, So for his birthday one year, me and this girl we got him a pizza cake and with strawberry shortcake and the pepperonis were fruit roll ups and the cheese was like shredded white chocolate and like it was a delicious, beautiful cake. But then everyone just wanted pizza. And everyone's like, oh, like when something looks like something else in a cake, you have to make sure it's also a delicious treat, right that drunk people would want in the middle of the night.

Yes, Like when they were doing that thing of like cutting cakes and like they really it's like really a hand or whatever. They would be like a soda can and I'd be like, I want to coke now, Yeah, you know, like a soda cancake.

I just can't believe. Yeah, the Bigfoot Pizza, they had great marketing. I mean, let's try it. I wasn't ever pizza hut. I never had a pizza hut until like adulthood.

I had pizza hut only growing Like my life really pizza Hut for me was personal pants at the airport. That was like the only time I really did it. But I'm excited to try Little Caesar's Iced Tea approved stuff crushed with you. I'd be delighted to try it. There's one. There's one literally basically between our houses. There's a Little Caesars. So I don't know why we're not.

The neighbor gets it constantly. I see her with a box all the time as they.

Wave hot and ready, as Marcella Arguello says, hot and readies for the people. I was gonna say, speaking of Iced Tea, our girl, because you know that our instagram is also a baby Nicole, a baby Chanel Nicole stand account and ic Ty's daughter. Chanelle is having a moment where people are like suddenly waking up and realizing that she has Iced Tea's exact face, which we've obviously known forever. But everyone's like, no DNA test needed. It's like, yeah, no,

Well yeah, it's kind of like the maloney ass, like yeah, no, we've been knowing, Yeah, but also, yeah, they're in love. That is the dad and that is the mom. I mean, I don't think, you know, like he's not having babies out of what she's not like this right?

They're together? No, And like they're really cute. I heard Chanelle and Coco were cute. They do like I'm not even four, like matchy matchy outfits with mom and daughter. But when they do it, for some reason, it's like cute to me.

Like I actually saw a mom and daughter wearing matching mustard yellow dresses on the street this week, and I did give him a compliment.

What'd you say? I said, you guys look as hell. I didn't say hell.

She was like a child, but I said, you guys look really cute.

You can say hell in front of my kid. I said, what the fuck? There was a Prius in front of me swerving this morning, and I go, what the fuck? And Rosie goes, what the fuck? And I was like, don't say that. Like I don't even try to discipline language because.

It's like what I talk about with TVs anything when nanny, like if you make it a big deal, they're gonna want to say it. Yeah, Like because I remember with my friend who's an amazing parent. We were listening to a song and like, like one of the other parents at the party said something, and she goes, I don't care, go fuck yourself. If we make a deal of it, then they'll get excited. But if you don't care, why would they care.

I'm just gonna be so lax about language. I can't even I guess I'm gonna have to have a conversation at some point of like, you can say that at home, but you can't say it at school. I don't know.

Well no, but also, what's fun? What's more cute than a kid saying fuck? Oh?

It's so cute. She says it with such gusto, She's like, what the fuck? Like it's great.

Yeah, I don't believe in uh sense censorship.

There's also you told me that there is a dick Wolf movie coming out.

Well yeah, but I did I want ASO wanted to say that. I don't know if we watched this. I don't know where anything is anymore, but I see in an interview said that like he is really scared for Coco because she's going to really miss Chanel when she goes to school. Okay, like they spend a lot of time together. He's like they're really best friends, and she's really not excited for her to start school.

But you know what, that's going to be a time for Coco to like take off. Coco's going to like come up with some product she's going to start selling, or she's going to like have her own business. Like I'm not worried about Coco. I mean that will be like emotional, but I bet you it'll be like a time where she kind of steps into her own power and she put out a workout DVD. I would pay attention to launch a swimwear line for like lady girls with big tits. I love that.

Hello, Yeah, I saw wildly a preview. I don't know how it came to me, probably the algorithm. But there's a Dick Wolf Ridley Scott Court movie coming out with the guy from Star Wars. I know there's a lot of Star Wars and a lot of guys.

But John Boyega, Yeah, the cute guy. That's like he was like the young new star too, like one of the last couple of Star Wars. I'm like Star Wars illiterate, So you know what I'm talking about.

Well, we figured it out together. But it looked great and I think we'll probably see it opening night, and if if we get rich by the time it comes out, we'll rent a whole theater. I love when I see that on Twitter. I know it's usually for poor people, Like, Hey, if you're in this community, I bought this theater out. We're just gonna be like, if you're an SVU freak, even if you can afford it, you can get.

On down here. Yeah, so stay tuned for that. All right, let's get going. I'm really excited about today's episode.

Oh yeah, all right, let's do it. So we're going all the way back and we're starting with season two, episode twenty peak. I would say one of our most requested, not as much as Murderous Identical Twins, but very close up there.

Yes, No, people have definitely asked for this baby a lot, and I understand it. It is a very good episode and star studded. It opens on Melinda Warner and saying tag and bag, so I love some poetry next to a dead body. This body is found on the water with a beautiful view of the city behind her, and they're showing us the city and it's great, but then you know, also bad things happen and you will be washed ashore. Maloney and Benson show up saying, hey, what's up, what's the scoop?

And Maloney says, what's up, Doc? And I get it because she's a doctor, but also bugs bunny. They're just cracking a lot of jokes for there being a dead woman. I didn't realize, but I do love watching Olivia put latex gloves on, so she's getting ready to touch the woman, even.

Though the the emmy's there.

Whatever, though, we find out the victim's name is Veronica Tandy. She's thirty four years old. She was stabbed in the back and raped from behind, and there's a bruise on her neck so she was yoked.

Yikes.

And then back at the examiner's office, there's no DNA found, but their spermicide from condoms is found. And then also Warner's like putting organs onto a scale and like it looked like a liver, like she was just holding a lot of organs.

They were that that usually.

Doesn't happen, and it's not like they're going to donate them because that would have to be faster. So I don't know why it's just to weigh all these organs out.

I bet you. It's part of the autopsy process. Is like, wait, I don't know, that's a great question. I don't know.

It felt fucked.

Oh, but yeah, you're right.

It was for a purpose because they did find a single fetus present, and the fetus is seven to eight weeks old. And then the cause of death is cardio failure because she when she was stabbed in the back of collapsed still lung and then she died from her heart stopping and it was a giant knife brutal.

Can we just can I say a quick question about the condoms. Do all condoms have spermicide in them?

Maybe not, because maybe some people are allergic to spermicide.

Okay, I was just wondering that, But why.

Wouldn't you If you're going to use a condom, might as well, Yeah, right, make it make it a sperm murder scene if you can. I guess if you're doing like in vitro style on your own with a base, or maybe someone jerks off into the condom and then without spermicides, then the sperm doesn't die and then you can use the sperm in the condom. I don't think that's what manufacturers were thinking of. But I think there's for sure non spermicide ones.

Okay, it says in fact, most condoms do not have it.

Yeah, and I feel like you have to like buy spermicide and like add it sometimes, which is but why would.

You always want to? Well I gave an example of why you wouldn't, so I understand why not.

This is that one extremely common example. Yeah, okay, sorry to interrupt, you move on.

No, it was important stuff, girl. We need to know about condoms. I saw our Steph Tolov on TikTok. She did a TikTok that she's sick of guys having magnum condoms that don't need them. And I didn't realize that that's the thing that happens, Like are they like what do guys think is going to happen? It's going to slide off?

Yeah, I don't know when your dick will look smaller and no woman is looking at what condom you're putting on. They're not like sweet a magnum. Yes, Like I mean, I just have never even noticed, like just get it on.

Her tiktoks are funny, y as she was just like I but I see it like, I don't know, so that's just something it has this happened to you let us know.

We do meet the victim's husband.

He is sad, he's crying, but of course they think he's guilty immediately, and Benson at this point sheh has short spiky hair, Jim teacher chic. The highlights are popping. The husband is screaming, you're supposed to be home. He's banging on the glass, and Benson does give him a loving embrace, which I really enjoyed, and then we cut to the credits. We come back from the credits and we're in then to irrogation room and the husband says that they were supposed to meet last night. She didn't

So that sucks.

Yeah.

I really hope Jared never has to do that. Yeah.

I think we all think that, we all do. I don't know when we know it has to do that, even enemies. Yeah, yeah, even the worst. Yeah, because you know the kid. It's not you know, maybe we want to like make a parent feel like shit, but we don't want to punish children. I don't have any children enemies. I would say I have none of those.

The very opposite. Actually, you have a fucking fan club. That's the day.

It is really silly. Oh what's this woman who does the least amount for me? She'll be my favorite. Yeah. Maloney then asks like, hey, your wife's pregnant, and he goes, what are you talking about? So he didn't know that his wife was pregnant yet, so of course they're suspicious. So Benson and Stable are not talking to Kraigan. And at first I only noticed, like, oh, Olivia's wearing a turtleneck, but then her nipples were hard and I did see it.

He doesn't.

He just he tells them to go talk to recently fired people. He's going to get a psych profile going. And Benson and Stabler, like I said, they're suspicious because the dad didn't know about the pregnancy. Do they need to establish paternity. We will see what happens. The detectives had to comp you game, and her coworker is so sad and said everyone loved her. People were mad at her, but it makes no sense because the department heads actually

I call him. We used to call her friend Veronica.

Vern Oh that's cute, yeah, or in Russian vula.

Oh, it's even prettier in Russian, yeah, but never a Ronnie.

So the friend also did not know that Ronnie was pregnant, and she was just like, there's no fucking way she's having an affair with Jason Mayberry. So we find about that this Jason Mayberry guy. We want to know more information. Is he having an affair?

Is he not? Are they friends? Is he mad? Is he the killer? We don't fucking know.

We do find out, however, that Ronnie is a bleeding heart and she likes to help people, and the friend does not like that. Olivia is insinuating otherwise. So Benson is confused, however, because Jason did send her flowers and the friend said, it's because Ronnie talked to some people and gave recommendations, and Jason felt grateful for that and recommendation for what's going on? Jason wanted to be a police officer, So is he going to the police academy? What's going on?

We don't know.

So now Stabler's talking to the head of security who looks like that was like Jason's direct boss. And the head security guy thinks that he quit the job because he was embarrassed because his mother would come in all the time and call and bust his chops in front of everyone.

And she was just like a.

Hovering mom that wouldn't leave our adult son alone. And so where's Jason now? Can we get an address? We get an address in Jersey for him, and we also find out that a man named Greg Specter could not stand Veronica. So Jason turned Greg in to Veronica because Greg was using security cameras to zoom in on women and be a creep. Where's Greg now? Work in sanitation?

And the mom like any.

Rich person aggressive, cocky, I don't like, you don't tell me shit, YadA YadA. Benson's like, do you know what obstruction is?

Madam? I always remember this line where she goes, I don't like cryptic conversations. They require a prevaricating nature that I do not possess. I like, always remember that line from this episode.

Well, I'm glad you remembered it because I didn't write it down because I was not about to learn how to spell that word. So I'm glad that was just on the tip of your tongue.

What is it perfect? I was like, I'm not spelling.

This, I I think I wrote. She was bitchy and argumentative, like that's all I That's how I said it. But then you know, obstruction, this is a murder trial, and we need to fuck this is a murder investigation. We need to talk to your fucking son.

Yeah. They straighten her right out. Yeah, it's like we don't care. Someone is murdered, like fuck you and what you like and don't like.

So the mom puts her teacup down and they cut to a shot of Benson knocking on an apartment door. The unit number is sixteen. So it made me think of My Super Sweet sixteen, one of the best shows ever.

Did you watch it? Like you know? I caught a couple episodes. Oh that's wild. I didn't grasp you, not really, but my cousin and I are obsessed with the Scarlett Johanson SNL sketch they do of it that I have not seen, and it's like, I wish you could see how dummy you look right now, give me one thousand dollars. That's like what the kid says to their dad.

Okay, so who opens the door of Unit sixteen? Chad motherfucking Low. So yeah, Chad Low is there? SVU legend, I would say, legend in his own right of lots.

Of different ways. Yeah.

Yeah, So he's wearing a long sleeve button down shirt, nerdy vibes. I wouldn't really expect him to be working security or wanting to be a cop. So you know, you can't judge a book by its cover, I guess he doesn't want to let them in because it's a messy, which I do relate to. And Stabler's like, we don't mind, and chadlow like his mother, quick quick with the sass, and goes, well I mind.

Okay.

So Stabler suggests heading down to the precinct and Jason responds greg Spector hated her, and Benson goes, we already talked to him, so not going to work on us, babe, And Jason is like, I don't see how I can help you, and Stabler plays this game where it's like, we really need your help help us find the sky. It's for Veronica, we need you, we need you.

Sold there's Mike multiple times where they have like hop wannabes and they're just like, we need your help to help us solve the case. Like it's like treating a little kid like they're a superhero or something.

Well also if it's just like it doesn't even have to be someone that wants to be.

A cop, like any guy.

Remember that episode where the marine, Yeah, the marine, but also there's a South Park the season like during the Clinton Trump election that season put like is incredible and they trick.

All these in cell trolls.

From the internet. They're like, we need you to help us. And all these guys think they're James Bond and they all arrive like every guy thinks that he's just one ask away from helping the CIA.

You know, so true.

Yeah, they're not questioning it at all, And I feel like I would fall for it too, So I'm not This isn't a full man hating moment. And I think I've even talked about the South Park before, but I definitely yeah.

If I got a call, well, yeah, if they were like, Lisa, we've heard your podcast. You obviously know a lot about murder. We're gonna need your help with this case. We need a new set of eyes. And I feel like you're the one that I would you you'd be like, well, it's my duty, guys, I can't record today. I'm helping with an investigation. Oh I would. I would totally do that.

Craigan introduces the detectives to B. D. Wong aka George Wang aka yes you are right. This is an introduction to B. D.

Wong.

This is his first episode of SVU, so this is immediately iconic canon. This is his first episode. He's wearing glasses, a lot of layers. He's ready to work, and Huang has some input, of course, you know, and the detectives don't want to listen. They hate science, they hate reason, and they hate anyone that's going to tell him don't just puch a suspect in the face. So he tells Stabler like, you should go at him alone because he has a problem with women, and Benson says, yeah, all

Right pretty much. I mean, like he probably got the trust from like his dad dying too, or he you know, but it is still family money. You're not like earning the money that you're spending.

Yeah, but do rich kids is that like common? Do rich kids think a trust is not your parents paying for Also, if I had a trust, I would be grateful.

I would be like, yes, never have to work again, Mom's money. I don't care.

But I guess he has a lot to prove. And Stabler's like, well, why would you even want to work at all? This makes no sense, and like, why quit a place where everyone liked and respected you. I don't understand it. Jason says, you'd prefer not to talk about it, and so Stabler needs to play the game goes, maybe you quit before they could fire you, maybe security camera stuff, you little fucking creep, And he goes, no, that's greg I never did that. So it's like, then, why did

Shoot until you.

Drop, have fun. So there was no affair. She was waiting to surprise him with the baby news. There's no secrets, there's no nothing like that, Like truly, she just wanted to tell her husband that they were gonna have a baby. And a cute way with the present, So bd Wong is in the background of the scene the whole time holding the coffee cup, doing incredible background work. So now

Yeah.

I want that well, because now I know squirrel friends and squirrels have little nuts. Oh nuts, secret squirrel The squirrels get nuts. It's a secret nut maybe yeah, Okay, that just I don't know.

But that's why RuPaul calls them squirrel friends because they hide their nuts.

Yeah, that's exactly it. Benson is confused why there's two letters of recommendation in the file, and he says, well, one is a glowing review and one is actually this woman pulling her support, So done.

You know what I mean?

And so she gave a glowing review and then said, no, never mind. Actually he's a fucking squirrel. So yeah, we we say insane and crazy too much. Maybe we'll switch to squirrel. We'll just start yeah chip Mo oh yeah, or.

Chip Mo get wet.

So back to Stabler and Jason. They're having a full day at the interrogation room. Jason says, I'm tired, and Stabler's like, yeah, but.

I need you here.

We gotta do victimology together. I need your help. So they're dancing back and forth. He's obviously lying, Stabler's playing games. So basically it's like, no one believes that this hot, married, happy woman that's successful as hell would be with you. Okay, But so during this like dancing game, blah blah blah blaes back and forth, we're an interrogation, Jason lets it slip. So Chadlow's character lets it slip that he knew she

Like, what's going on? When did she tell you?

And then he goes, I don't really remember, and then Stabler's beeper beeps. I bet there are people listening to the show who've never even heard or seen a beeper in their fucking lives. Yeah, I didn't know two thousand and two even had beepers.

I thought we were posting the beeper game. My mom had a beeper forever. But she's a doctor, I know, but she had one way after she had a cell phone, but she's a doctor. She stayed in the beeper game.

Yeah, I don't know doctors are allowed to have beepers and like taxi drivers, but no one else. So then we get Cabot. We have Cabot behind the glass, and now that I know that, like Wong in March are friends in real life, it is really special to see them together, Like, yeah, I get really happy, and we need her on the podcast. Let us know what Cabot centric episode you would like us to be.

Yeah, yeah, we'll put up a thing on our Instagram stories too, of like tell us your favorite cabot today.

Yeah yeah, so then we can approach her and then if she but well, now we're friends with everyone, so hopefully Diane or Wong will be like, bitch, I don't care if you don't want to, you gotta come on.

We're with you.

So she goes, we can't hold him. Stabler walks in, goes, excuse me, like he just became a cop, and so he's mad. He's like, what do you mean let him walk? That bastard knew she was pregnant and killed her anyway, And she's like, no, I know, I'm on your side, but you can't force him to stay. And without a miranda, it's admissible. And Craigan's like, you're tying our hands, and it's like.

Yes, there are laws. What do you want her to do?

Like we know he sucks, but get a confession or mirandize him and arrest him but there's no evidence, Like fuck off. I just hate when they get so mad at these lawyers and yell and do yell at Barba, the way they yell at these women.

I don't know. I don't know Barba's like, so plays, it's so chill.

Yeah, he's always condescending and making a little riddle a rhyme.

He's like a little troll under a brig Like I can't think of a time of him ever yelling back. He's just like actually subsection thirty four, you know, like he just like kind of knows everything.

So Wong gives Stabler more scoop and he says, this guy hates women. Get on his level. The nastier the better. He wants to talk. But like then Stabler's like won want he catch on? And Wong's like, yeah, but who cares? It's worth it? Like, who cares if he catches on? So Stabler comes in, pulls up his sleeves and this is like an SVU Bingo moment. You know, there's a bingo board, this would be on it. And Stabler does

You know, I love putting bad guys away.

So they're like bonding and he's not catching on to what's happening at all. But then so basically Jason's like, but you like to put bad guys away, and Sailor says, yeah, but I actually want to know why. I like to know why they end up that way, which is not true because anytime Wong wants to bring in an idea, he doesn't listen. So it's like you actually don't care at all, and when someone gives you a reason, you

Ding ding ding ding ding.

You know, clue So the boss says, there's all these photos of women in his locker, and he goes, but if you want my opinion, this woman doesn't even know he exists. And there's no doors on the lockers, and I kind of love the boss. He goes, if they got something to hide, they can leave it at home.

That's great. Yeah, yeah, I don't care what. I don't know.

I just I like this boss. He seems like a reasonable guy. So at his locker there's all these photos of Veronica from the security cameras. They're all like her in a distance, and there's the candids of like closeups of her boobs. So Benson calls and goes, get us the search warrant, bitch. So they go to his apartment and there's tons and tons of boxes of condoms, so many condoms. And then also like through digging in the closet, Benson Caesar's all this women's clothing. She goes, I didn't

And Jason is like, I love Ronnie.

She was gonna leave her husband to be with me, and she couldn't because she got pregnant and that baby could have been mine. And Stabler goes, no, no, no, there is no baby, there is no mother. Everyone is dead. You yoked her, you raped her, and when she pleaded for her life an unborn child, you stuck your knife into her back. Admit it. I love staying. This is the thing with Stabler. In this moment, I'd have sex with Stabler. You know, I'm not mad at him anymore.

Where do you sleep?

Listen? I get that it's like expensive to live in New York and he's on a truck. A murphy bed makes no sense. Why would it just be a murphy bed? If you have a rich mommy in a trust, you have a bed, you have a real bed.

Yeah, the Murphy Bed is weird.

I don't there there's no way he lives in a studio. And even if I just I don't buy.

The Murphy Bed situation.

Or maybe he's one of those rich kids that like you know, wants to pretend they're not.

Yeah, I know a lot of those.

Someone tweeted once I think it was Dwayne Perkins where it's like I love seeing people's houses during Thanksgiving break like all these people who pretend they're poor, and then like, I'm sorry, is that an island in your kitchen? Benson's yeah, why not get a hotel? Why not drive home? And I just thought to myself, like that is a level of rich I would really love to be. I would love to just I actually don't want to drive home.

But a woman like this could get a driver. I mean there's like so many ways she can get home.

Like it's like, oh, I agree with you, but I'm just thinking about like nights where I'm out and you are like, yes, you know what, I'm just going to go grab a room at the Maritime Hotel.

And want you guys just come back up and we'll hang out a little longer.

Yeah, or like I'm not taking a new ber, I'm getting a room. Like I just would love to be able to just stay in hotel rooms and not care about any price ever.

Like that.

It's just awesome. So then Benson great line. She goes, what the hell did you do to your son? And mommy Dearis says, I don't like your question and I don't like your tone.

Please leave.

So back at the precinct, Houong is like jolly'sych boy.

He's so pumped.

He's like holding the hatpin trying to crack the case with Kragan six pins with corresponding complaints. And I think I didn't mention this, but every pin had a location labeled to it, and each of those locations correspond to a complaint of someone being.

Like someone pricked me out of nowhere. Yeah, well it happen.

And he talks about Peakerism and he was just like pakaristic. I can't believe I didn't see it, so you know pekarism. I guess he gets excited stabbing women's flesh, and the happens were like the attacks were in the butt in the back, so not one can even id an attack her. So it like it works with the from the backshy moment type thing. So Stabler's now question Jason again, but now about the happens. Benson arrives and Stabler acts like he hates her, and when she leaves, Stabler asks Jason,

Of this scene. I think it's so good just to remember.

But so Stabler like it's just like the direction of this is amazing. We have to look up the director, so like Stabler's in the background and then it's Jason right up onto the two way mirror banging and yelling, and then we see like like I don't know, like we're at an aquarium. Craig Benson in a super leaned and focused Kwang are like watching what's going on and it looks awesome, and Huang looks like what I look like when I'm at art museums, Like ooh, like, what's

This is Emmy territory actic. It's very very eerie and creepy.

Yeah, so he starts doing an act out impression psycho moment. His face looks like the new version of it, like that new actor like just creepy eyes and his tongues out and he's saying like, I'm a dirty boy. I can't keep my hands to myself. And then he keeps going back and forth doing what I assume is impressions of his mom. So it's like lying, boy, don't look, oh look, don't touch no touch me. Oh yeah that feels good. No, come here, oh baby, no, that doesn't feel good. You're a good boy.

Sh and then he shushes.

Like Blair Saint Clair the shimmysh Yeah, he does a shimmy shush. And then the mom runs in after Jason's now like been handcuffed and like being walked around and like what have you done? Do you know what this will do to me? So this is a narcissist to not worry that her son might be a killer who's going to jail forever and like a rapist and a weirdo.

It's like, look what you've done to me?

Oh, and she calls him a filthy, lying bastard.

So we get to the judge.

Love this judge Margaret Berry played by Doris Black. She died in twenty eleven. Oh so we haven't had her in a while, but she is one of my favorites. And she was also in Sex and the City, one of my favorite shows. She was one of the Jews at the synagogue when Charlotte goes to the mixer and it's the same episode where Peter.

Her isn't it And that's like the.

Son that they're all setting up with, So a real sview Sex and the City crossover. And the episode is called a hop skip in a week, So I don't know if you remember that. It's what they go to Brooklyn the absolute hunk. But this judge is in that. And she's also my favorite movie Prime, which started my love of roth Cos.

Okay, Lisa, I have a fun fact for you, because yeah, we have to look up this director. Yeah, this episode was directed by Steve Schill and he not only directed this, but he directed the two episodes we just covered, Rooftop and Rapist Anonymous, and he's only done fourteen episodes of S few total, and he also directed a lot of Dexter.

Yeah.

We were actually just looking him up this weekend. Yeah, and we're like, we need to get him because he's done The Wire.

He's done like three episodes to say, oh that we just covered, it's crazy.

Yeah, yeah, we gotta get shown.

Those are over multiple seasons. We're talking two thousand and two to twenty thirteen.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I knew it was a great director. That shot is like so fucking good. Yeah, and you know now, so we're in the core. This is like the it's a it's kind of like SVU by the Numbers, Color by Numbers. Cabot wants her man. Defense attorney says, let him go. Cabot says he's rich. The other guy says objection, YadA, YadA, Bail said it a million. Then they go have more Legal four play in the whole way more arguing about stuff and basically the defense attorneys

I don't know.

So basically, the confession is out since he did ask for a lawyer but didn't get one because Stabler wanted to play games and that, but the happens are in because it doesn't matter if you were looking for something and found something else. So I think it's crazy. The defense attorney tried to break it. It's like you were looking for a knife and it's like, yeah, and they found bloody happens. It stays yeah, nice try though, that's why you get paid the big bucks. Cabot said, I

It's like, he did ask for a lawyer.

You knew you were doing the wrong thing. Wangam says like, hey, I have a theory. There's a pattern. After the crimes. I think he goes to his mom's house in Jersey. The knife is there. We need to find the knife. The knife equals his penis. He is not disposing of it. So then Stabler calls everyone bottom feeding suits and it's like are the das making that much money? They work for the government, Like, I don't think they're that rich.

You're like an interior designer or something like a real estate agent. Let us know what that's called. I don't know. I'm Suna knows what. I think.

It's called a combination stair that's not fun or fancies. A combination stairs, an architectural element founded traditional homes in North America where two sets of stairs merge into one at a landing.

Yeah, it's like Titanic style, Like you know this if you have a house like this, this is where everyone took prom photos, you know what I mean. Yes, it's pretty amazing. And so they're entering. There's guns, they're trying to find it. What's going on? They enter the bedroom. One of the best scenes in SVU history. Oh my god, the mom is dead, knife on the night stand in his shirtless. Everyone is naked. There's blood everywhere. He killed

Yeah, and he's like he's like touching her hair and it's bloody or it's like it's so creepy. It's like one of the creepiest scenes. And then it's just like fucking dick wolf. It's so nuts. Yeah.

So it's an amazing episode, And yeah, I can't wait to hear more, Kara.

The true crime is so insane. I cannot wait.

Oh my, and more insane than happen Penis. Mommy, fucking this is amazing.

Insane in different ways. There's just a lot of crazy elements in this next story, and I really can't wait to tell you about it. Hell yes, all right, so let's get into this. The story starts with a woman named Barbara Daily who grew up in Cambridge, Massachusetts. When she was eleven years old, her father died tragically by suicide from car like doing the carbon monoxide like car in the garage with the hose thing.

Now, when I think of carbon monoxide, I just think of the midsommer.

I haven't seen that. Well, whoever has their happy I did my husband tell me the entire plot of it because I said it was too scared I would probably never see it, So you told me the whole plot. Well then, but I just didn't know about carbon monoxide.

She basically puts on a gas mask of carbon monoxide straight into her and then kills her parents with the monoxide. But like gas, it's a fucked up scene. Trixie and Katiev talked about it and on and they make it really funny, but they can.

Yeah, well, I don't know if I can make it as funny. But she heard her mother take the insurance money, which I didn't know that you got insurance money when you took your own life, but maybe you do, I guess. Yeah, Arthur Miller rules. Yeah. They moved to New York City and they live at the Delmonico Hotel, which I look up and it is currently Trump Park Avenue.

Boo.

Barbara is a truly chaotic woman. She's like young and beautiful. Living in New York City, she just becomes a social lite. Like I don't actually know if her family had any money beyond like all we all we really can find is that she had this insurance. Her mom had this insurance money, so I don't know she comes for money, but just being gorgeous and being kind of like eccentric, she just becomes this like New York socialite. She's dating tons of rich dudes. She models briefly for Vogue and

Are so many vowels that look crazy.

In that name. Yeah yeah. And then this is how she meets Dicky's younger brother. First of all, I don't know why Cornelia's nickname is Dickie, Like, well, I don't know where that came from. But this woman named Dickie has a younger brother named Brooks. So Brooks Bakeland is who Barbara meets and they fall in love or whatever. And now Dickie Bakeland and Brooks. Bakland are the grandchildren of Leo Bakeland, who is the inventor of Bacolte, which

I understand wanting some rice after you want some General So's chicken right after you kill your mom.

For sure.

Anthony was institutionalized at England's high security psychiatric hospital called Broadmore until nineteen eighty when his influential friends and family like fought for his release. So he did eight years in a psych hospital and then was released. This story does not stop. After he gets released from Broadmoor. He immediately he's thirty three years old, now, Anthony, he immediately flies to New York City to stay way way way,

I don't know, yeah, but isn't she mad that this guy killed her daughter? I mean, she's probably like he's sick.

You know.

I don't know. So he apparently builds a sort of creepy shrine to his dead mother and mumbled satanic masses over her ashes. That's where what I read in one place, So who knows. And then six days after his release, he attacked his grandmother with a kitchen knife, stabbing her eight times and breaking several of her bones because apparently she was nagging him quote unquote a surprise twist, she did survive. He was arrested by the NYPD in charge

I can't wait to see who our guest is because this was a great episode. Thanks Kara for taking us through this wild crime.

You're welcome.

That was really interesting. I'd never even heard about this at all, and so I'm really.

Well, this was like written down. This was not on any lists as being based on anything. And then a listener was like, I'm pretty sure you guys have to do peek. I'm pretty sure it's based on the bakelends. Like I mean, it really sounds like it has to be like even lightly based, you know.

Now I feel very much like Bill Hayter's character Stefan, where I'm like this this murder has everything.

We had, our grandmother, money, ear app you know, pushing and pushing your mom into traffic in London.

Andy Warhol. It's like a very glamorous crime but creep creep, creep creepy for sure.

All Right, I am beyond thrilled for our next guest. He is an Emmy winning actor. You've seen him on Er Melrose Place, twenty four, Pretty Little Liar, Supergirl, and he's also an enormous television director. He's directed tons of shows. Uh, Supergirl, what's the one? My husband likes? The flash Bones, Life and Pieces. But you guys know him as Jason Mayberry. On this week's episode, please welcome Chadlow.

We're beyond This is one of the most requested episodes we've gotten from the listeners. I'm one of the favorites. We can't believe we're talking to you. And then I don't want to bury the lead. We got to just talk at the blood scene. I'm right off the top or she.

Was like, we got to just dive in with how this is like one of the craziest episode endings of all time, just like you in bed with your mom covered in blood, Like.

Oh, there's a whole story behind that.

Oh oh yes.

But first off, you guys are hilarious and I love that you're doing this.

This is this is such a great podcast. It's so fun.

I've been down you I've been I've been listening and it must I mean, you know, there's how many eighteen years of episodes.

To twenty two seasons? They're a twenty two second season.

Right, that's right. Yeah, it's like, isn't this the record? Is this the record for dramas series for longest running?

I think for longest running, like yeah, live actions. I know the Simpsons and stuff has been on longer, but like, yeah, for it's pretty crazy.

The Simpsons has been on for seventy eight years.

I'm a Simpsons girl. Look, I have a Simpsons tarot deck right here.

They're the best, you know. I did an episode of Bones. I digress. I know this isn't the Bones podcast, but you guys will add it stuff out right that you don't like.

If this Bone scoop is good, we'll leave it now.

It was.

I did an episode where we had it was when they were celebrating I think the thirtieth season or twentieth fifth season of the Simpsons, and they had all of the Fox programming had some Simpson's reference in it. So in Bones we had like a little East egg. They call it where if you look closer, you could see Homer Simpson's X ray of his skull and it was empty. Obviously there's no brain. And then I had I had an episode where Dan who plays Homer, the voice of Homer. Dan's last name.

Is Castella or castellatas something like that.

He played a guest star.

He played a cop on an episode of Bones, and it was amazing because you would ever know he was the voice of Homer Simpson at all. And he was very quiet, and we were all like, you know, who's going to ask him to do Homer's voice?

Who's going to do it?

And we were told, you know, he doesn't. Really, It's like, I'm sure he gets asked that every single day. So finally, at the end of the of the shoot, I think our first assistant director finally went out to him and just slyly said something like donuts, what don't they do?

That was my worst That was not Homer. That was a really bad Homer.

But anyway, Dan kind of smiled and laughed and I forget what he said, but it was a perfect Homer Simpson voice, and it was like such a gift to hear that.

It was so cool, I'm a human being. It was like it was it was it was Homer in the flesh.

It was pretty incredible, And I thought, how about a great superpower to like go to Starbucks and order a drink in the voice of Homer Simpson. That must be fun, like a great party trick to have. But Peek, if I'm not mistaken, is the is the title of the of the episode that we're discussing currently.

Yeah, so what's the story?

Well, I had to I did not know what peak arism was was until I was cast in this role and I wanted to do some research. And the first question I had was, okay, so what is peakarism? And the way it was explained to me was like a sexual obsession with needles and like puncturing stabbing, And I was like, okay, that's enough. I don't even know any more than that this is this is more bizarre and twisted than I then than it even is on the page.

Really Yeah, so as the.

Story goes, I can't divulge all of it because there's a really great story behind the story, which I'm grad I would get in big trouble if I were to tell I know, I'm sorry to tease like that, but what what what ended up happening was the end of the episode was scripted that and if I'm not mistaken the characters, my character's name was Jason A. Berry, I believe the end of the episode. This is the spoiler alert. If you haven't seen the episode.

No, they mostly have listened. If they're listening to this far into our podcasts.

Yes, if they're listening here, they've seen the episode. So I, Uh, Jason ends up and I and I don't even want to say I because it's so bizarre and dark and so twisted. Jason me, the actor playing Jason, ends up having post coital with his dead mother in a bed.

Covered in her blood.

Uh, And it was scripted that I the character was was you know, naked basically, but you know it's network television, so that naked means you know, you're going to have your shirt off. And but there was a long discussion on the day about whether or not we would be able to get that.

By standards and practices for you.

Know, the judge, the judge and jury of what is appropriate and acceptable right for the audience I don't know who they are, but we were concerned earned that if we actually filmed it with me being, you know, semi clad with my shirt off, whether or not it would actually be able to air. So the choice was made to put me in a white T shirt on the day, which was not as scripted, and so put me in

And so I was feeling.

Really really good about it, and then finished the episode. And you know what was interesting is I was also at the same time I got to do I was in a movie called Unfaithful with Richard Gear and Diane Lane, and so I started shooting and I was a small role in that movie, but I started shooting that movie. I did one scene in that movie, and then like a month later, I did this episode of Lawn or SVU finished it, went back and did a little bit more work on.

Unfaithful.

About three months later, I think I got a call and I was still working on un Faithful, which shows you the difference between how network television and a film is done. Like network television you get like eight to ten days to film an episode, and this feature film took like four months.

It was so crazy.

And they called me and said, listen, you need are you available? Are you in New York? And I was living in New York City at the time, said are you available? They want to reshoot something. I wasn't even sure what on the SVU episode that you did. And I thought, like, I love acting and I'm always excited anytime I have the opportunity to get to act.

So I was like, yeah, I'm available, well and I'm excited.

I didn't know yet what it was we were going to be reshooting, and so you know, there we are, like a week later in this New New Jersey mansion where we had shot the ending, and I'm told, you know, we have to.

Reshoot the ending. I'm thinking, why are we reshooting ending?

It was everybody seemed so happy with how twisted and dark it was, and I wasn't really sure I wanted to go back to that place emotionally as an actor, because it's really it's really uncomfortable if you if you really go there, it's really uncomfortable. And I was told that there was a very heated conversation. This is all

So I met Dick Wolf himself was like, it would never happen.

You know, we need to shoot no names.

I'm not sure of who or how or when this conversation went down.

Wow, So what we see is like months later, you just hopping back into this wild character.

Wow.

Months months later, and I'm thinking, wow, I don't. And it's always hard when you feel good about you know. One of the hard things when you're an actor is when you go into audition for something and you feel really good, like you nailed it, and then lo and behold.

But I have to say when I saw it, I didn't. I didn't feel that.

Yeah, I was gonna say, like, having watched it, it's dark as hell. And I can't imagine what your original performance in the T shirt was like, because like I always remember, like having seen this episode like multiple times over the years, I just like always remember that last scene with you being like I'm a big boy now I'm not a little boy anymore or whatever, and it's like so scary.

Well, one of the other uncomfortable scenes is when you're in the interrogation and you start putting your fingers in your mouth.

Do you remember that.

Was that a directorial decision or was that a personal decision?

You have this like I'm a bad boy monologue thing.

Yes, So I remember it very well, you know, those opportunities are so rare as an actor to get to play something that's so rich, and I mean, I love that stuff. I love getting to play characters like this. In fact, this is this character is one of my favorite characters I've ever had the chance to play. He was so complicated and so bizarre and and you know, I mean, I'm not really a method actor, because method

We can stand on our own two feet. And this is now, this is.

Twisted because it was really strange circumstances, But I thought, you know, in my own personal life, I feel like I'm not a little boy anymore. I feel like I'm a man now, you know, I'm I believe I was married. At the time I was married, I think it was twenty seven. It was like twenty nine, thirty years old, and I thought, you know, I'm I'm a grown up now.

And you have to.

Everybody has to break free from their childhood, right, break free from their parents, and have that moment where they

I have more than one of these in me. And he's like, okay, twelve, what do you mean?

I said, I said, I don't really know, but I'm going to commit to whatever comes up, and so I just want to let you know that I may only have one in me. And he's like kind of thinking, well, this is either this actor's being extraordinarily difficult or he's going to go to some very dark place. And I think it was kind of a combination of both, really,

And I can't believe you're doing this.

And then I'm also like in the scene, going yeah, this feels right, this feels like.

No great, and think can we do that one take?

And so we got done and I'm crying and I'm ready to really like I just I'm really really ready to move.

On from that place.

And I looked at him at the I looked right away to the focus polar and I said, was that in focus? That was my biggest story? And he said, yeah, yeah, that was in focus. And the director came in kind of looked at me and went okay, And I said, I said it was in focus. I really don't think I want to do that or can do that again,

Take right just for safety. I mean, even if you nail it, yeah, if.

You nail it, because you also want to be able to build a performance.

And I didn't. I just knew I could do something again, but I wouldn't do that again.

And I felt at that point like all this build up and these you know, days and days of this anxiety and this low grade nausea what kind of immediately went away, Like I purged it all in that moment, and I thought, I just don't want to do this again. So I think the director looked around and looked at Marishka or not because Muska was in the scene. I don't believe it was Chris Maloney and Chris. Chris was like, ah, I think we got it. I was like, I think too, and so we we did one take and that's it.

That is.

I think it's such an interesting episode because they find you close to the beginning. It's not like there's a bunch of red herrings, and then you come in at the end as the person that did it. They find you at the beginning, and then there's this whole trying to draw your character out because you want to be a cop to and like a lot of sort of

Is some he is somewhat sympathetic I think in the end, which is which is really interesting.

I thought that was a really interesting turn.

And you know, they say, like I've heard other actors say that, you know, you really can't judge your character that you're going to play like. You have to kind of try to work to understand them, no matter how evil they are. I mean, even if you're playing like, you know, like Jeffrey Dahmer or some awful, you know, monster, you still would have to find some part in inside of you to understand that person who they are and

Yeah, not to go back to weird things that you had to do in this episode, but I was wondering what it's like to act in front of a mirror in that interrogation scene, and you were like screaming at the mirror. Is that weird to do looking at yourself and having well.

So do it.

That's a good question.

And so now not only it was it out of body experience. It was like I was watching myself from out of my body, but then I was also watching myself in a.

Mirror, in a mirror.

So thank god actors are somewhat narcissistic and we and we enjoy this kind of re Yes, I've always talked to other friends who are actors who like, you know, like if you're really sad in your day and you're like, you know, something happens and you're crying, You're.

Like, run to the mirror because you want to see what it looks like when you cry. Like, yeah, I could really, you.

Know, this is really sad. This is what I look like when I'm sad. It's this is why actors are so freaking crazy. That's why we're all a little touched because we're working in this headspace.

But yeah, I remember that was I think that was.

Helpful looking in the mirror in a way because I think, as I recall, and I know, like looking yourself in the mirror, like truly looking yourself in your in the mirror, can be can bring a lot of stuff up as

Of who of your being.

And now I'm I'm over analyzing all this and making it all way to airy fairy. But it was in that moment I think kind of everything disappeared for me and I kind of was able to check in with that kind of inner child, if you will. And really that scene, that scene is about killing the inner child, right if you think about it, and about announcing that to this detective in that moment. And also it's a confession,

Wow, I'm so glad Stabler was able to provide.

That for you. Stabler.

Yes, that's really And I.

Love that you knew each other.

Yeah, like this is like pre like when you guys were starting out, you were in acting class together. I love that.

Yeah, we were, in fact I knew I knew Marishka and I were friends, we had been we met when we were both on ER together.

Oh wow. We're also going to ask if you knew Neil Bear for me?

Are you know I knew Neil from Er? I did, ye, Neil Bear. I have to let me just say how much I loved Neil Bear. He is one of the kindest. First of all, he's one of the smartest people I've ever met. I mean, not only is he this genius writer, but he's also you know, a doctor who was at

Sure. No, he was on our he came on our podcast. We interviewed him and he was like, so we were like, we could just talk to you for five hours.

Like he's amazing, Right, He's just he's the.

Best and he remembers everything.

He's like I said, he's literally one of the smartest people I've ever met.

Yeah, and they got you in there, you were you were guests. I mean, this is season two, like this is the show is just starting, like.

Was this season two?

Yeah, so yeah, because you're you. You directed Solace in season four, but this was season two, so you're you kind of got on the SVU train at the beginning. Had you been like watching the show at all before when he called you in to do it, or like me because it was a new show.

I remember, I was very aware of the show, and I had watched a few episodes of the show. But knowing Marishka, who I'd met on Er, and knowing Chris from acting class previously, I was I did watch the show. I think I watched the pilot episode in a few episodes, and I thought, this show is really good. And I was and I was not surprised at all that it would be very successful. I mean, two, those two actors are also such powerhouses.

Yeah, and they always were.

I mean Marishka on Er was genius and she was so good on Er and Chris was great in acting class. My only argument with Chris and acting classes. He used to go up, he'd do his scenes, and then he'd leave.

Oh my god, so that's actually very stabler.

But yes, yeah, yes, that was like come on, Chris.

Come on, you know, like this is a community.

This is our community.

But now he was always he was always great and very supportive, and so yeah, that's that's how it came to be. I mean, I remember I read I auditioned for my role on I don't want everybody. I don't want the audience to think that like in Hollywood, friends just give you jobs sometimes they sometimes they do, but more often than not, you have to go out and earn them. And I had read I went in on the whole cattle call for the I played a role

To lead, and I think it right to this SPU character.

That's awesome. I feel like I got so excited because we had talked to Neil Berr if you knew him, but you were saying how you met Marishka on the set and so you guys stayed friends post r until les be it.

Wow, that's yeah, isn't that crazy?

Yeah, it's it's And then the opportunity to direct came up, which, yeah.

I was just about to ask you about that, because it seems like just looking at your IMDb, this was kind of your first major television thing, was directing soulless?

Yeah it was. I mean I had done.

I had written and directed two short films and one that was very much felt in the vein of an SVU, kind of a procedural drama about a crime that had been committed, and it was dark and.

Had it was good. I thought it was.

It was really well done, and I thought I was really on my way until I got the opportunity to direct A Solace on SVU. And I'm so grateful to Ted Katscheff, who was the producing director and executive producer, and to Nil for giving.

Me the opportunity.

I was not really prepared or ready yet in hindsight, you know, Hindsight's twenty twenty off. I knew how to make cool shots, and I knew how to talk with actors because as being an actor, I'm comfortable in that in that world, which is you know, which is. I don't want to discredit that, because those are two important skills to have for directors, but you know, those are two skills in a wide range of skills.

You need to have. And I was, you know.

Woefully unprepared for what it would take to direct a huge network television show. And so the fact that I wasn't fired from directing Solace is something that I am very grateful to all all parties involved. But it was just over my head. As most first time directors are on network television, it is a very very challenging job.

You have to start somewhere, right.

I mean, yep, and I'm so and again this Ted Kanchieff and Neilbert gave me my start as a director.

I think your somewherre directing right now or you just were you were like in Canada or something directing.

Or I directed the Flash.

Well my husband is a fan. Ooh, well yeah, big fan.

But I was.

I just finished doing a lone star, the nine to one one lone Star with this after name, Rob Lowe, which was interesting, really interesting to work with.

Wow, I need to work with your brother.

And I'm currently directing Titans for It's an HBO Max show called Oh Cool. Just a really good show, really good. Working with Rob is fantastic. I mean, we're from the line from spinal tap. We're closer than brothers. We are we are, we are closer than brothers, and we do really well together. And his son John Owen was the writer of the episode, so it was it was really a special experience.

So with your directing, are you is that kind of where you're leaning now? Are you still like going are you still working on getting acting parts? Or are you kind of like that's you know, moving towards directing, trying to split time? What's the what's the deal there?

Uh, In a perfect world, I'd be able to I'd be able to split time.

In a perfect world, I would be able to do both. I would.

But acting is is is very fickle. It's interesting. I miss acting. I haven't really done much since I was on Supergirl. I had a recurring role on Supergirl, which was a lot of fun. But I don't I work at directing. I don't work much at acting anymore. I don't, So I'm not I'm not in a place where I really want to scour the breakdowns and look for opportunities and you know, make all the phone calls and and you know, ride my agents about why am I not

Are there any lessons that you learned directing soul lists that you've carried on through other gigs since it was your first one?

Yeah, I mean so many lessons that I learned. I mean, it's funny. Is the biggest challenge I faced as a first time director on a network television show was just how much you have to manage time and because there's only so much time you have to shoot in a day, and also what I need to cover a scene. And by that, I mean how is it all going to

Go, where's your cut? Where's your cut?

And I didn't understand at the time what he meant, and I just wasn't experienced enough. And I was like, well, I'll figure because I'm thinking, this is a really cool scene and I've got it shot a cool way and the actors are really good. And he was telling me, asking me where my cut was. And I said to him, I said, well my cut, Well, I'll figure it out when I'm in the editing room. And he said, no, you will not figure it out in the editing room.

Giving me a gift.

It was a little bit like the great Santini, you know, giving a gift to his son. It was hard to hear and it was really challenging. But I think in the end, to go back to the question what did I learn, I think I almost learned everything in directing Solace. Again, the lesson for me, as I'm always reminded in life, is you know, oftentimes it's at our lowest points, our darkest moments, that we have the most to learn and

I'm a director now.

And it was very humbling, I must say, to realize how much I didn't know.

And now that we know that you were friends with Maloney and Riushka, how was it directing your friends?

Did they give you ship?

Absolutely?

It was they, you know they? And again I appreciated that they They were tough on me, both of them.

Both of them were tough on me.

The power dynamic could definitely changes, and it's still it's still to this day.

Is that way.

It's funny because I was on a show called Pretty Little Liars for a while and I was an actor on the show.

I got to do both, but it was perfect. I got to act and I got to direct.

And when I was an actor, I could go and hang out with the cast and talk about what we did over the weekend and what movies we liked, what TV shows we were binging. And then as soon as I started directing, if I went into the holding area where all the actors were around talking.

They'd all get really quiet and look at me and go, yeah, what what do you want?

And I was like, I'm just coming in to say good morning and hi and how was your weekend?

And they're like they'd say like, oh, it was fine.

And there was always this kind of like I all of a sudden became the teacher or the parent, and as soon as I as soon as I leave the room, I could hear them first into laughter and have this great time. But so directing can be a very lonely position. Somebody once said to me, nobody invites the director to dinner.

And it's really true. It's really true.

So that the relationship on when I was directing the SVU with Mirshka and with Chris shifted a little bit because I was now, you know, expected to have be in charge of, you know, writing the ship and driving us toward you know, making our days and getting everything we needed. And so I was no longer just you know, one of one of their friends who was also an actor that they liked. So I was held in a

I believe in the end. It was hard.

I did not appreciate it at the time, but in hindsight, I realized what they were doing was treating me like they would any other director who showed up on set who was inexperienced and not really ready to handle the load of directing a show like that, And so it frustrated me and I was angry, but ultimately I had to look inward and try to take away the lesson from it, and the lesson was, you know, I needed more experience.

I really really did.

And so I've seen them since and friends with Marishka still and I ran into Chris recently and I kind of made an amends to Chris. It was very interesting because I saw him at some some event and he's very stoic, and I don't think you're going to get Chris on the show.

Well, Diane Neil says she thinks he'd do it, but we might have to wait a couple of years.

Well, it's been really fun doing this show for so many reasons. But everyone that comes on is like Marishka is an angel from God. She is everything.

She is like the head of the ship.

And then everyone with Maloney is like he's kind of serious and weird and stretching, and so we that's like the vibe we get.

Very talented. I mean, everybody said how talented and could he is?

No body and I would say, what he What he is is extraordinarily committed, like so deeply committed and cares so deeply and is working at such a high level that I think he has a hard time if somebody isn't completely one hundred percent on their game, and I have to respect that. I mean, it's any difficulty I ever had with Chris isn't about like it's some you know, insignificant issue like catering isn't warm, or you know, my trailer's too far away, or It's always about the work.

Now.

Marishki, on the other hand, is a complete extrovert, right, and just I mean like she's just like good time Marishka. It's like laughs and always having a good time and keeping it light. And so they're very different in that way, and I think that's probably what gave them such great chemistry, right because you know, like opposites coming together is really interesting. That's kind of what you want for chemistry.

And what were you going to say about the party with you and Maloney or like you guys made amends or something.

Yeah, No, it was just I just I said, you know this, I mean, this is you know, being with hindsight, being twenty twenty and sixteen, fifteen years of experience.

Under my belt.

I've been able to look at that experience of directing that show and realize how green I was and how inexperienced I was, And I just basically said, you know, I said, I'm I don't know if I said I was sorry, because I'm not sure I try anything to be sorry about. But I kind of acknowledged the fact that I was green and inexperienced when we work together, and Chris was gracious in Chris's best way, which was to kind of acknowledge the fact, you know, but again,

That was that was interesting.

And I was inexperienced and not really ready for that big of a role in directing your show. And I sure loved work, but I sure loved the experience and thank you for that. And he's like, yeah, man, it's all good, and kind of we laughed and off he went.

It's wild to hear this because watching it, I mean, I wasn't looking out. But it's a great up. It's one of the greatest episodes.

Oh wow, that's really It has.

So many good twists. It's like great, and you have it's such a good cast, I mean, and Dowd.

You got like, oh, it's a crazy cast, and Logan Marshall Green.

I believe.

But here's the thing about that is I believe as an actor and as a director, and we're only as good as the script and only as good as the story. And I will also say as a director, I've come to learn that When it's good, I get way too much credit, and when it's bad, I get way too much blame. And that's just the nature of directing television. When it's really good, there's just way too much because so many things have to come together for an episode

You can tell how much you love your work.

Well, that's nice to hear. I do. I do love I do love my work.

And I'm i'm you know, as I as I get older and mature, I realize how fortunate I am. I'm just just struck by how fortunate I am to have the opportunity to get to do what I do. I mean, it's not lost on me. I don't take any moment of it for granted. It is such a privilege to get to be an actor and now to be a director as well. So I'm i'm you know, I'm just really kind of I just feel so fortunate. So it's nice to be able to talk about these things.

Oh my gosh, she loved him.

I loved his energy, everything he said, and obviously he complimented us up up top, so number one guy.

And he listened to some episodes of our podcast.

I love that like zooms to number one and gave the scoop. And I just love people that are thoughtful and sharing about their craft and about like the process of learning and like doing things before you think you're ready or when you think, like with directing and then jumping in and then being grateful and understanding how awesome it is to have mentors and listen to people. Yeah, and you know, I just I love the process of creation.

I do feel like we just keep talking to people who are just so like humble and grateful and positive and they're successful, and it's just like a really great It's just really great to see the cause and effect.

Like you know, I think if they weren't humble, they wouldn't be on the pod. Okay, that's the theory, right or maybe I know now Neil Bear, he knows he's the best.

He's like, I'm not.

I'm working at Harvard. Excuse me. I would like to add the number one lesson, of course, don't fuck your kid, yeah, aka rape your kids.

Yes, don't rid your kids. If today's postmortem is anything tells us anything, it's do not have sex with your kids. I mean, do not molest or rape your kids. You can't have sex really with your kids. No, I said, aka rape. Yeah, maybe that was too like I was correcting myself.

Oh, we both suck up. Yeah, it's hard. Language is difficult when you're so trained. It's like you're so trained and everywhere else. It's like when you get into a social conversation about everything, even when someone's trying to be or saying the right thing, the language is hard. It's like you really have to yeh know this stuff to know what's appropriate or not because people will be like,

But sometimes but yeah, and I guess.

Don't talk to the cops, zip it unless the lawyer comes zip it.

Yeah, he fully confesses without a lawyer. Don't let the cops flatter you. Don't let the cops tell you that like you're the one that's gonna help them solve the crime.

Yeah, they are trained to lie. Manipulate and get information out of people. There's a reason cops do well on Survivor.

A.

I didn't even know that.

Yeah, some of the best winners unfortunately are or fortunately are cops. Wow, because you know they're physically strong, but in terms of like they know what's up, they know what to say. One guy built spy shacks.

They can like sniff out weakness, I bet.

Yeah, and they just fully know how to lie. There was actually a season with two cops and one cop, like it was like.

Blue line baby, and then the guy.

Was like, I'm voting her out and she felt betrayed, Like she was like, we're cop brother sister, What the fuck? Guess what? The came back won the whole season. Hello, learned her lesson was like came back and like there was one moment where like there was a clue under

They say cops are quitting in droves all across the countries. Maybe they're just all trying to get onto survivor.

Maybe yeah, everyone from Burger King and the police departments will be on the next season.

Me and me and leave them.

Oh. What I realized was Tandy Veronica. Tandy's husband is in an episode of Sex and the City that I just watched, and I lost my mind. And to explain to the person I was with why I was excited was humiliating. But he was in an episode of Sex in the City where Miranda goes to the comedy club and he is her date, and so when he goes to the bathroom, his phone rings. The comedian is bad and he's like, what the fuck? Answer answer the phone,

That's a d quote. Wait, I literally remember every moment of that episode. I remember, like exactly what it looks like and what happens. And I just didn't place that guy's face at all.

No, it would be why. I mean, yeah, I'm very proficient, and I didn't get it until just now when I saw it on accident and like we had just done this episode, you know, like, yeah, I don't know if I would have been able to connect all of this if it wasn't timed perfectly. But the Universe that Be wanted someone listening here today to know this. Sure, right, yeah, and this this is an intro thing. But Manifest look at us putting Manifest manifesting Manifest.

Yeah, if you don't know what she's talking about. Apparently Manifest might be getting another season, so people are manifesting another Manifest. Yeah.

Anyway, right back a peak. Back's a peak?

Anyway, Peak a classically fucked up episode that I think about all the time, Like I've seen it so many times, and I mean, yeah, I don't know how much real world application there is to this episode. Well, we have the real crime.

I also learn, you know, put on a shoe if you're going to stalk a lover.

Yeah, if you're going to cross Central Park in a mink stole, nothing but a mink fur, put some shoes on, yeah, and bake a light.

Like if you're for money, maybe watch out.

Did we learn nothing from Liza almost losing a toe trying to get her steps in and ugs? You guys have got to wear shoes.

Yeah, No, this is a great episode. Oh what else did we learn? Oh, don't lie if you commit the crime, don't lie and say someone else did it about the zoom making it on the cameras. Yeah, just don't lie. It's easier when you don't lie.

Sure do or think of a story. Think of a story that doesn't throw a random person under the bus. If you're going to come up with your alibi or like your you know, your cover story, don't make it like, oh, someone else is going to take that was? Like what was? So that's what's so fucked up in Like another episode that we're talking about is that the person who was guilty tried to pin it on a kid. You know, I can't say it because it hasn't come out yet.

We like to keep it secret. Listen, this was a great post mortem. Only maybe thirty percent had to do what we learned from the episode.

But you know what, I think you have to say?

How good Wang looks and glasses, Oh yeah, I wish you wore glasses regularly.

We learned, We learned that, you know, George Huang was part of our lives. That's how we learned. We learned that from this episode. And yeah, it looks.

Good and his coffee cup acting is superb.

Yeah, he's unbeatable. Let's head into what would Sister Peg do? Our weekly segment where we give you an organization or a resource that you can go to or donate to, or just learn more about the topics that we touched on in today's episode. Today we're going to be highlighting survivors of incest Anonymous, which is SIA. The website is SIAWSO dot org. That's SIAWSO dot org. They empower people who have suffered from childhood sexual abuse and who want

Thank you for that, and next week join us for Intimidation Game season sixteen, episode fourteen, as always there on Hulu, even if they're misnumbered. Peacock, isn't that a song by the Pussy Kittles. What show us your pee pee pee pee peacock? Oh maybe it's Katy Perry, It's Katie peecock. Whatever, So watch with us, don't watch with us, Follow us on Instagram, and thank you for listening.

See you next week.

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