Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.
We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our stories. Done done, Yay, that's messed up?
An sv podcast. I am Lisa and.
I'm Kara, And every week we lovingly dissect an episode of your favorite program in mind, Law and Order SVU, and we talk about the true crime that it's based on.
And sometimes we have a guest and other times we don't.
And up top we like to catch up chat and make you buy our merch. Lisa, what's going on? How has your week been? We have just had the Oscars. I know this comes out like a few days after the Oscars, but you know, well more than a few days, almost a week, almost a week.
But I like to talk about the Oscars.
Yeah, let's talk about the Oscars. You kick it off, babe. I had a fun time watching them. I thought they were fun.
I got a seventeen out of twenty three on my ballot, So I'm very good at guessing the categories of movies that I have never even heard of. So wow, my husband always says I have a real gift for that.
Any upsets, any upsets in the home.
I mean we watched Oppenheimer like two days before the Oscars, and I thought this is a good movie. I didn't blow me away like Poor Things did, like I didn't. I thought there were better movies. But it won everything because it's the kind of movie that, like everyone.
I feel like likes to vote for. So I don't know.
Yeah, I didn't watch it. You know, I'm trying to, you know, read see what's up. What I feel really cool about is I knew so many people at the Vanity Fair Oscar party.
Woh, oh my god.
Okay, the goal is getting closer and closer. I do feel like once you're at that party, you have made it.
You are it? Are it? Yeah?
And we're so Kate ber Lant was there, Michelle Buteau, I mean we're right.
There generally, Hannah Einbinder, Yeah.
We're right there. But that's such a cool party. I really like Jennifer Lawrence having polka dots. I love PoCA dots on her red carpet. Obsessed with Billie Eilish and watching her sing made me cry. She is incredible. Oh my god, that song is so pretty. I love it so much. I love her outfit, I love her makeup, I like her eyes, I like everything about her. And I just am obsessed. I haven't watched I didn't even watch the Ken Song yet. I gotta watch that.
But and she's from Highland Park, baby. I was telling you.
We were watching it at a friend's house and there were kids, so it was kind of like chaotic. But the parents were just kind of like tuning in to the awards when they would happen, and then letting the kids scream during the commercials. But I was like, Rosie, see the girl singing she's from where? She's from Highland Park, And she was like, really, so you too can be.
I don't know. I think Billy Eilish comes from money, right, she wealthy? I don't know. She loves her parents, I mean, yeah, her whole family's real tight.
Highland Park has been changing, but she's yeah, but she grew up there, so like, who knows.
I don't know. I have no idea.
But she loves her parents, you know, But I don't know about that. And she was a successful recording artist by the time she was seventeen.
What is she now? Twenty she was younger than seventeen. Crazy. What was her big song? Bad Guy? Was that the first hit? Yeah? For some reason, I think she was like fourteen. Oh my god.
Maybe I'm wrong, but my niece loves her, like she's seen her a few times in concert.
Yeah.
But I don't know if you've seen the meme, but it's like millennial women going to Olivia Rodrigo concerts and it's a photo of Jamie Lee Curtis from the movie Freaky Friday playing guitar, and it's like, like, I do I like Olivia Rodrigo, But I'm like, there's no way I'm going to that concert. There's absolutely no way unless
someone I don't know, I guess. I yeah, I just need a little more maturity, I think, but Billy is so mature in her vocals, Like I don't know, what a beautiful song, What a beautiful song.
It's such a pretty song. I love it so much, so simple, And I knew that one was gonna win.
I think I was.
I think everybody was up in the air on who was gonna win Best Original Screenplay, And I was happy it was American Fiction because I famousfully really liked American fiction and told you to watch it.
It was adapted, but who what was the other one?
Anatomy of a Fall was original? Oh my god, I do love a dog.
Well, no, you know what I voted for?
Was?
I think I voted for Barbie?
No, Like, it was like something that I was like, maybe they'll give this one to Barbie adapted because it wasn't gonna win anything else. So that's like I kind of that's what I put on my ballot. Was I put Barbie?
No? The thing is, everyone knows how I feel about the Barbie movie, but like, in terms of set design and production design, I don't know who won, but absolutely I cannot imagine it being better than Barbie. That is the one thing where it was like Barbie was so written off, and I'm like, are we fully denying that they built a Malibu dream house?
Yeah, but it was poor things which also had like amazing set design.
Yeah.
Wait, did you see the clip of Emma's stone running because she was Have you seen this? No?
So she I think it was right after she won.
She's talking to her husband and a friend and you can hear her going, you guys can stay out here, I'm gonna go in.
And then she turned and.
She goes, oh my god, and she says her friend the friend's name, but it's like her makeup artist won the award, and then it's her just running in her gown to like support her friend who just want an oscar. And it's just like really sweet, cute, funny, amazing. I don't know, she can do no wrong to me, Like I'm obsessed with her. Yeah, I know a lot of people wanted Lily Gladstone to win. I did not see
that movie, but I cannot compare anything. But when I saw Poor Things, I went, that's the greatest living actress of our generation. Yeah, she's probably our new maryl I
was blown away by that performance. Yeah, and Lily Gladstone was amazing, And I feel like maybe the only reason she didn't win is because her screen time is not a lot, Like she's actually not no spoilers, but if you don't know the story of it, she is being poisoned slowly, like throughout the movie, so she is in bed for a lot of it, just like sweating and almost.
Dye, you know, So there's not as much dialogue.
But she was amazing and I think it would have been awesome for her to win as well, but like, yeah, they both were. They both were very great, but no, you know what, and I'm lying. I didn't put Barbie for that. I put Poor Things for Best Adapted because I wanted to piss off my husband because he read the book and he said the book was better, and I was like, I want the screenplay to win for Best Adapted, but it didn't.
Yeah, I'm looking at the set design. I mean it is amazing.
I loved Poor Things, but like I did really love the way Barbie looked and like how they built stuff. But I guess Poor Things was more fantastical and came out of nowhere with like minimal real life references.
Maybe I don't know. Yeah, it's weird.
It's like I am sort of not looking forward to like what's going to be replaced by AI in the future. Like I love the practical stuff that gets built for these movies, and like, I think it's going to be so crazy when they're just like, Okay, you're on the moon now and it's just AI like making clips or whatever.
Well, so Julia, our friend, she's watching like Masters of the Air or something like that on Apple. She's very into World War two and this is about the fighter planes, okay, And she said that it was incredible, like this, it looks beautiful because it's all these planes and I go, oh my god, I wonder how they shot it.
And she goes, it's not real. It's computers.
And I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot that, Like you can make stuff look cool with that, but it is they can't crash planes with you.
Yeah, I'm like, I get it. Well, CGI and AI are a little bit different. I think we've been doing okay with CGI. That's the word I was looking for. Yeah, CGI. Yeah, like CGI, we've been okay with And even some people would say CGI is too much Like the movie three hundred is like fully done in the green screen, and people don't like when that stuff looks kind of faky and you can see the CGI and like it's only gonna.
Get worse with AI. That movie was ahead of its time. Now, sure, it's one of my favorites. Oh, I've never seen it.
I just use it as an example because I feel like it's an example of.
People you've never even seen it. I know I've never seen three hundred. I've never seen Oh. I saw in the movie theater multiple times. And then for Halloween, me and my friend dressed as Spartans and we air brushed ourselves fully gold like I was into it.
Wow, I.
Know, yeah, you saying anything like I don't think you thought I would get right up on your grill.
But oh, is this why you thought we that you saw Drew R. Butler behind us at the airport at that time? Or did we really see him? Was it really hammered? You just thought it was him?
No, no.
No? The woman at the clear lost her mind to the guy behind me, and I kept looking and I was like, that's not what I don't I don't, I can't put my finger on it. And then she thought he was Liam Neeson and I had to be like, babe, that's not Liam Neese.
Oh babe. But it is.
So funny. But wait, I think Headley's in it. That's her big thing.
Who oh Lena Hetty, Lena Hetty, Yeah, yeah, did I call her Headley? And I don't know, I didn't know that was.
Yeah two thousand and six, Like what kind of you know, cutting edge for us? It's like going back and being like Jaws. You can tell it's not real. It's like yeah, okay, yeah, well that's actually what's.
Been annoying me lately. So Caitlin Clark, it's like really amazing.
I mean what she's done for women's sports, women's basketball, like everything is so incredible to watch.
Yeah, so beautiful.
And then of course the comments on Instagram in cell vibes like and all these people are like the three point shots didn't even exist in the previous record, and it's like, yeah, that's sport, what are you talking about, Like swimsuits have changed, turf has changed, protection rules lines like yeah, you cannot invalidate hers and not every other sports thing.
Like that is what technology does with sports.
And it's like these guys just they cannot They just hate women, and.
Why won't but won't admit it.
It's like, but your actions are proving it in such a clear way to me.
Like this dead basketball player from the seventies doesn't need you standing up for him.
I don't even know if he's dead. I'm sorry, I'm just saying he's way old.
No, But also other men who have beaten older record, like there were just people giving examples like yeah, the three point line didn't exist for lots of records that have been been built and no one has been upset, Like right, it's so annoying. It's stupid to even focus on that because it's so much good stuff.
It's so beautiful.
Yeah, you know, to sell out, to have like the most people watching, to have like male athletes showing up, to like, you know, huge stars supporting her, it's really cool.
Yeah, it makes me really happy. And you had a big show on the night of the Oscars.
How'd that go? It's so funny. Yeah, I booked a show. It did sell out. Anyone at Union Hall. Thank you so much for coming. Obsessed with all of you. It was amazing. My friends are so funny. I love Union Hall. No one really cared about the Oscars. And I've been doing a thing where I bring a bucket and people write stuff and we all improvise off the buckets and it's just like, oh, really a good time.
I'd fun.
And then I hung out with your best friend Rachel and a few of us till midnight.
We hung out. She loves saying she does love to hang.
She's so supportive. I mean to also buy a ticket. That's very rare.
She always buys. I go.
You know, I think Lisa will put you on the list and she always buys.
Now I told her again, I go, you really don't have to continuously buy all of these, like I will put you on lists. But it is it is kind. That's nice though. I cried last night from pure joy. So I was the Cara Klink last night. I bought the tickets. I put a group together, I got the group chat going. Oh. I was the field trip instructor. I got a marvelous group of friends. We went to Joe's Pub to watch Larry Owens do a musical theater night.
Oh right, and this girl Shana and Celeste. Their voices, I mean it was one of the like to think the voices coming out of them. But it's Larry wrote like the blind Side the musical, So that's what a lot of it was. And it's so genius. He wrote it with Henry Koperski, who did our.
Oh who does our theme song?
Yeah, who's a genius composer. But you know, I was sitting, we were all in a few tables enjoying the show, and my friend turned to me and she goes, this is a Monday night in New York, and I just fully started crying. I was like, I can't even believe it. The talent we're seeing for twenty dollars on a Monday, are you? And then I got drunk and then at the.
Time of my life, and I love Joe's Pub. Joe's Pub is just like a great place to see. People say, oh, I'm going to become a member. I've decided I'm becoming a member. Yeah, I live right here, I'm becoming a member. I support the arts. I've only actually been there a couple of times, but one of the times I went was to see Bridget Everett.
That was my first time there too, and the tender Moments and it was great.
And I love how the artists can enter and the food was good. I gotta, I mean, and I also got to I got a mini corn dog on a six. I was like dipping a corn dog while watching like the most amazing singers I've ever seen in my life.
And I was like, this is it.
And then we went to a bar Swift named after Jonathan Swift. Okay, but you probably loved that. I did love it. I was the only one who knew. I kept talking about it. I'm like, he's who taught me about satire. Junior year of high school, Like, we were taught satire by his work and then we had to write our own satire. So to me, he's very that's very important to me.
Yeah, I'm like, what did Jonathan Swift write? Did I study him in high school?
All of ours travels? That's the big one. Oh, okay, that's a big one. But I just know about this essay the bag account. Hopefully I'm not wrong. But I kept talking about this essay and everyone's like, shut up, no one cares. Get us more vodka. Yeah, dumb bitch, But yeah, it was. I just love the I love the arts.
Oh you love the arts. You're a patron of the arts, oscars.
Yeah, I have to see some movie. Should I see Killers.
Of the Moon?
I don't want to, I will be honest. My husband just put it on in the room that I was in to finish it. So I only watched the last hour and a half and I was into it. But I think from what I've heard from people that the last hour and a half is the best. I just can't get on board with these three hour movies. I mean, I did watch Oppenheimer, but I was on my phone a bunch, like it's just it's too long. Three hours these the men need to relax and Michael see Zone
of Interest this week. I know that's like a real kind of a downer movie. But it won for sound design, which everybody's everyone I've talked to has said the sound design is incredible, So I think I have to go see it in the theater.
Yeah.
I watched like a little clip online about the sound. Basically, there's all these shots of like he wanted it to look like people working in a house, and he wanted it to sound like everyone is doing things on their own in the house. So because that's how houses are, you know, It's not like everyone is silent while you're doing one thing. And so there were hidden cameras in Mike's in all of the rooms, so the actors did
not know where the cameras or MIC's were. Ooh, and then it would be like action and then everyone would just be doing what they do in a house. So that's the only thing I know about the sound that's like overlap being and unique to that movie. So yeah, I think the theater is a great idea for that.
Wow. Well, I went to go see our friend do a one man show. Will show. I went to Will's.
Show, and then Saturday night I went to Jared and I did a show called Them's the Rules where the man does a set and the woman gets to interrupt him whenever they want.
And it was fun. Did you have fun?
Oh yeah, I interrupted his alass, I made fun of him.
I roasted him. It was great. It was so fun.
We had a really fun time because the other people that were there were not couples, so you could tell they were like, is it okay if I interrupt?
And I was just like, what's up? Cook?
Like I just was really yelling at him like the whole time.
So we had to win a blast.
You know what, we are such like elder millennials because I've just gotten into saying cook and it is fun, but I think it was popular four years.
Ago, yeah, five to six.
Just now on stage, I started saying beta cook and I was like, I don't even know what that mean. I can't believe this is coming out of yeah yeah yeah.
Oh you know who else was singing?
Cat Cohen's boyfriend is on stage too, Brian, who has an F one podcast. But it was like a shock to see him and and he sings. He's an actor and he sings. Yeah, but I didn't know he sings. I knew he was an actor, but because he's friends with Mark Forrestein.
An actor and a singer who loves f one, I mean, people contain multitudes.
It's so fun.
Yeah, we also got to talk about porn. He's like a pornhead like me, Like, yeah, it's very rare. You get to talk about the names and the girl and like they're like their journeys and so it was really fun to talk to someone that like we knew all the.
Same people and like that was kind of exciting.
Well, I'm sure this isn't a kind of porn that you're into. Maybe it is a no shame, but I just heard about cock porn for the first time that that's a very popular search term. Now that was twenty years ago. But I don't, like, you know, I'm really not porny, unfortunately, I've tried.
It's like it's just not catching with me. No, it's not winning any Oscars for sound design. It's beneath you. Care's beneath you.
Yeah, that's what I'm spending my time on. The sound design officers.
Well, we are going to get started in a second, but I wanted to mention it's starting today, there is going to be a spring sale on the Exactly Right store site, So all of our merch is going to be fifteen percent off using the code trasure t r Y s U r E. I'm sure that's some kind of my favorite murder inside joke that I don't know about, but that's the code. We'll put it on our stories as well, and we'll post about it on our main
Instagram page. But you'll be able to get fifteen percent off of our merch as well as further discounted stuff that's in the Last Chance Clear and shop, which includes our kick ass fanny pack, the beanie, and.
The purple sweatshirt.
So if you've been looking for those but they're like out of your budget, they're going to be super marked down from March nineteenth to the twenty fifth. So go to Thats mess Up Live dot com and you can go to our shop link and that takes you right to our little store. And also you can also find on the link Lee's website that is all Liza's future touring dates and she's got a lot of dates on the road, babies, so go check her ass out.
Yeah, this weekend, I'll be in Rochester for the first time in my life.
Oh my mom went to college there. Oh my god. Yeah, I'm excited.
And then Nashville, Chicago, Tacoma, Spokane, Spokane, whatever, don't come for me, Baltimore, Austin, La Santa Fe, New Orleans, Kansas City. No, then it goes too far. I mean, I'm not giving you my November dates. But also if you're in the area of Springfield, Missouri. I think I have mentioned on the podcast one of our friends did pass in December, and his dear friends put together a festival and it's going to be a comedy festival in the spirit of our friend Kennedy to Forest.
It is not going to be like just tribute.
So if we want to come see a bunch of Chicago comics and other people not from Chicago but his friends and stuff. That's April twenty third to April twenty eighth and Springfield, Missouri at the Blue Room Comedy Club. And you know, I mean, maybe some people will be depress but you can come to it.
You can come to Sorry, it's.
Some of the greatest comics and they'll all be there and you can follow to four fests on Instagram d E f O r e f E s T to get like the links and the show schedules and stuff like that.
But that's gonna be a cool fest.
Yeah, thanks for saying it. I still cannot say the fest. Like I know, there's like a wordplay with his name and the festival, and I cannot, yeah, figure it out and say it out of my mouth. It's like really bad. I also realized what I forgot to mention this whole time is Traders season finale reunion everything, and so I'm not gonna give it any away about Traders and whatever.
But what is so funny is so they have of this reunion and the gamers like Survivor the Challenge, like they are used to fucking each other over because it's like they're in those types of games and so to them it's a game. But all the Bravo people acted like it's a Bravo reunion and the gamers couldn't handle it, like I'm Jay got screwed over. She blocked them to stay the girl. She was like, you blocked us. Immediately he goes, yeah, and I'm never gonna speak to you again.
You guys are giving grifter energy. I was bamboozle And then like they asked Phadra about a guy, They're like, how do you feel about Dan? She goes, He's a piece of shit. And they're like, but you'll forgive him. She goes, I will never speak to you again.
Wait, and didn't Andy Cohen host the Reason? Yes? Yes? Why did?
Why do you think, like Alan Cumming didn't host that? Now, Andy's the best in the game. It's like, if you could get Andy, why wouldn't you know what I mean?
Like, yeah, yeah, yeah, Alan.
To me is an actor, a performer, a fashion you know, like he's a But Andy is very good at reunions and it's so many of the people he knew. But it was just so funny, like the Survivor people being like, it's a game, and then and.
The Bravo people are like, this is our lives.
Yes, even if you have not watched Traders, I would say the reunion is just so funny to watch how pissed the Bravo people were that got fucked over.
That's amazing.
No.
I have literally been the way that I scroll through a carousel about Traders memes having not watched one moment of the show. I'm like obsessed with like the vibe of Traders, but I have not watched any of it.
Well, it talks about it with your friend Rachel and New York. She's oubsessed.
She's like Kara wants to watch it, but has it. I'm like, yeah, but the fomo will take over. It'll kill her, like she'll have to watch it.
I know when things hit a fever pitch in the zeitgeist for me, that's when I'm like, I gotta watch it.
Like I went and saw the movie Hereditary. I went to go see that.
I would never see a movie like that, but people wouldn't stop fucking talking about it.
I was like, I'm going, you know, so I'm going, I'm gonna. I'm getting into Traders. In fact, we just we just finished The Bear last night, finally, my husband and I season two, and now I'm gonna get into Traders. I've got extra time and I heard, by the way, I heard we're heading into a Bravo desert, So this is my perfect time to get into Traders.
So how did you feel about the Bear? You know how much I loved it? How did you like it?
I love the Bear? The performances are amazing. Do I think it's a comedy, Not really, but I love it so much. I think it's such a great show and the acting is so good and it looks beautiful, and it makes me want to know how a restaurant is run, like I want to be in a kid which I still don't understand.
How when a restaurant is full.
They make all these meals for all these people, Like I truly don't understand.
It doesn't feel like enough people.
It's all about the practice, I know, Like it just doesn't feel like I don't get it, like I've worked in restaurants, but like with you know, two line cooks making fried food, like I haven't really worked in a fine dining at all. Like it seems like to make one of these little moose canolis with with a parmesan crisp and a and a pistachio crumble like that that would take you twenty five minutes at least to make it perfect.
And people are ordering seventeen at a time, like are these orders are firing? Like it's just it's stressful.
And that final episode of the season, I was like about to have a heart attack.
There was just too many things going wrong at one time? And how is that Forks episode?
Wait, the Taylor Swift, the Forks when he goes when Ebon works at the with Olivia Coleman.
Oh yeah, so good. Well you didn't even remember it.
I didn't remember which one you were talking about. I was called Forks. Yeah, I forgot that it was called Forks. I was like, I forgot the name of it. You have to remember, I'm also waiting weeks before watching these episodes, like, that's why it's taking me so long.
No, you also have so many things in your brain.
I saw that episode you're talking about two months ago. But yes, I like I love that one. I like the little solitary ones where he goes out. I like the Denmark one. I mean, it's so cool.
At Denmark one. The end of that episode brought me to tears. It's just such a beautiful show. And the only thing that makes me so livid is Chris Storer, the creator director, used to direct comedy specials. I could you know if No, not that he would even want to work with me, But that dream is I think the dream is long gone once you do the Bear.
Anyway, let's get started. We've got a wild episode for you guys today, I.
Do have to mention the bear. Did you like the romance?
I know a lot of people didn't like that actress mot but like, did you see the scene where they're like flirty and they're looking and he actually seems shy like before they and it's like I just thought it was so romantic and sweet.
You didn't, Okay, yes I do. I think they're so romantic and sweet.
You know.
I discovered her through theater camp, so I like think she's funny no matter what.
I'm like, oh my god, I like this girl.
But like a little bit, like after they've been dating for a while, I kind of wanted them to like talk more normal, and she still seems like she's a little bit manic pixie dream girl even when they're just having regular convos down the road. So I was kind of like, what's going on? But I like their relationship. I want I want it to I like it.
I do like it. I like it.
She's great, And Jared kept going, I mean, no spoilers, the show has been out forever. Please fast forward if you don't want to bear spoiler. But Jared's like, who would break up with this woman? Who would break up with this woman, like he was just like, but I understood. I called it early. Actually, I was like, he's going to break up with her because she's too much of a distraction to his obsession with being the best you know.
Yeah, and she's a doctor, so it's like, how what are they going to see each other?
The schedules are.
Insane totally, But when he listens to the voicemail, oh God, heartbreaking, A wild run.
I love the bear.
Check it out and stay tuned for my Trader's recaps coming up very soon on this podcast. But let's get started. We have a great episode for you guys today.
Okay, so we are starting with Perverted Justice.
Good title, good title.
Yeah, Season sixteen, episode twenty one. Let's see if we're gonna get some perverted justice. It sounds like a porno. I'm sorry, but this is a very serious, sad episode and yeah, pretty haunting, but something about that title makes it seem more exciting and a good time.
Okay, So we start off at a church with a.
Decked out cross hanging and engraved in the white marble and gold. It says Jehovah is in his holy temple, be silent before him. All the earth just in case it has important meaning for later. I didn't see anything, but maybe some of you Bible thumpers will catch catch some meaning.
There.
You know, a man is preaching. He's doing a sermon about love and truth. Love bears things, patient and hopeful. Love never fails. And then we see of course Samaira Wiley and she is crying. She's clutching a photo of a young child and a father having a good time. And yeah, so she's in the church. It's not good. The good time is in the photo. And then it's a fast cut to a man holding a bowl talking about Noah and welcoming him into a community. What community?
Where are we? What is happening? Like? How is everyone Catholic? But don't worry, they're not. It's not a baptism, it's a Unitarian church situation. And we get like expository dialogue later to let us know it's Unitarian. So you know, he's getting a cool, relaxed, chill religious leader. Who's you know, you not that religious? There are some people in the pews. I don't know who they are. Tomorrow's there, KREESI. They're standing in their Sunday's best. They do look like dorks.
Benson is wearing a March pink Chanel suit vibe from The Simpsons Those Who Know no She mentions truth on your sweet lips to Noah and dabs his lips with Unitarian water.
I don't love that.
We see Rollins is there as well, and they're discussing. I can't believe how many times I've said Unitarian, but they're talking about it again. She didn't grow up with religion, but she wanted to know it at least have something to ground him, so that's why she did this.
I wonder if they do this a little bit because also Mrshca Hargate is religious.
Yeah, of course, yeah, of course. But I try to avoid that topic.
Because like Benson has never ever been like wearing a cross or talking about God.
I mean, she's not religious.
Yes, but I had I have a friend once who was like, you know, I have Jewish friends that are super chip, like, don't keep kosher, don't really do the holidays, don't do anything. And as soon as they have a kid, they're chopping the tip of the dick off because of Judea. As soon as it's circumcision, it's like we gotta do it we're Jewish, and it's like you eat bacon, Like why for this? Like why for this giant thing? Are
you suddenly a you know, part religion? So I think that like breaks some people's brains where they're like, I fucking hated Catholic school. It was the worst. It was traumatizing. I have all this guilt and shame and I'm my kid. I'm sending my kids.
Of course I got a baptize and I can't have him hanging out in purgatory like yeah, like your brain just breaks in some way or like suddenly you I don't know whatever.
She wanted to ground him. So we're back with Samira Wiley and she is stressed. She's walking out and this religious leader is in purple gold, black velvet. He greets her at the back of the church, glad to see her back at services. We learn her name is Michelle. She's working her program. It's her ninth step and you know she wants to make amends her father. Then I finally see the religious leader is Leslie Odom Junior, or
a resident guy in Glasses. He's in seven episodes as this character, and he's like your dad's in jail and that is not your fault, and she goes, it is I lied to the police. She says it's not enough to say sorry. I want justice and wants to reach out to Andre Brower Rip. But yeah, his character Bayard Alice Bayard Alice Ellis, It's gonna be a rough one for me. I'll say that I'm gonna have a tough time this episode. So Ellis is someone who helps innocent
people get out of jail. Andre Bauer is a legend that we all love, and I'm sure everyone that knows him misses him. They stare at each other all for a while, and then we are in prison. So a man we can assume as the father is teaching another inmate how to read.
And this in May.
We actually meet again in the Yates Rudkinne escape episode. He's Redkin's like roommate and then a Yates al Yeah, it's like he's part of the group and is like scared of them, but like you know, he sees the whole tunnel, but he's not going with those too fucking psychopaths.
Wow, good catch. I did not notice that guy at all.
I did?
I did.
The door opens and the dad is shocked to have a visitor, like when they're like visitor, He's like okay, Hector like come back and find me and they're like, no, it's for you. He's like what the folk and that he's even more in shock to see Michelle and he's like, why are you here. She introduces Andre to the dad and she's like, I told him, daddy, the truth that you never raped me. And he breathes deep and they're
likeas like tears welling up in his eyes. Credits, So we opened back up on Benson with Ellis and she is showing him photos of Noah on her phone and they're at a swanky type of restaurant and you know, she's chatting about hopefully the adoption will be official.
In a month yay.
So they sit down and Benson's like, Babe, I know you didn't invite me to dinner to talk about Noah, so let me have it. And he explains that Reverend Scott asked him to look into this case and explains that Derek was convicted of raping his daughter seventeen years ago when she was six years old. She's like, Dan, that's a tough case for Project Innocence to get behind.
Rape of his own child. What are you doing?
He goes, yeah, but the case was mostly made on her testimony, and she is now saying that her mother pressured her to lie and she wants to recant. She tried once to recant before as a teen, but the ADA and detective didn't want to reopen the case, and that's when she spiraled into drugs and alcohol and is now recently sober so a recant part of a twelve step program. Benson's like, that's not really reliable. It's not a really reliable indicator of the truth. And he's like, no,
I know. That's why I need your help to investigate. It's going to be hard. There's no DNA, there's no forensics, there's no corroboration. It's only her testimony. And also the medical symptoms were inconclusive. Her mother had her own history of substance abuse issues, and she's the one that made the initial nine to one one call. She asks if he met the father, and he did and says he's a top notch prisoner and he found him credible and
he has maintained his innocence the whole time. And then Ellis says, you know, it's hard enough saying someone what that was convicted of a crime, didn't commit it. But he goes it's harder even to convince that the crime never took place. So Benson's like, great, and you thought of me and she smirks. He smiles, You know whatever, It's cute. Back at the office, Tomorrow's pissed. He's like, what the fuck now we got to invest in almost twenty year incest. Drape tell him to do the work.
Christy and Rollins are there too, and Creasey's like, wow, ellis a legend. I'll do anything for him. So Tomorrow turns to Benson goes, no, I know he's your friend, but do we really need to work this fucking closed case. Benson breaks it down and goes, yeah, we're doing it. Like, shut the fuck up. She goes, this isn't about friendship. SVU didn't even handle this case. Some local precinct did
and they really hated Derek Thompson. And when he finally got a lawyer, it was some rental lawyer who could barely pay for transcript copies.
We have to look into this. That's our job.
Benson sits on Rollin's desk, so that's kind of hot and casual and starts reading out the names of the old cops from the case and she doesn't know any of them. Increases whoa before a year time, that's crazy lol. Benson's threatens to send him back to Staten Island. Then she teases that somebody's coming back to town and they were here when the place was built.
They're fucking old. Who is it?
Drum roll please burn, No, it's Craigan, Baby, we got Kragan. Craigan's there. He's showing off. He's showing off Ileen's grandkids. So that's like, you know, a girlfriend.
I kind of forgot about this, and I really love that Craigan has a little retirement girlfriend.
That makes me feel really happy. Yeah, he has like another chapter to his life. And it's like death becomes her where like life can start at fifty.
Life is long if you're lucky, Yeah, you can get a second act. Yeah. J Lo proved that to us. This is me dot dot dot now Colon a love story.
I mean, only getting fourteen thousand streams on a new album on Spotify as like an international Oh you didn't see this, I mean this was a ilogo now, so it might be a little outdated. But JLO, like you know, with that movie, put out an album and over the opening weekend or the day it came out, only fourteen thousand streams on Spotify, like not even one hundred thousand for someone like Jennifer Lopez, Like, I don't know how she's not spiraling.
I wonder if she blames IOH No.
I think it's a weird project. I don't know if she did much prep, Like, I don't know what's going on. I also don't know why these people can't rest, Like why can't you just chill out? We loved the wedding planner. We're on your side, like I don't. And the movie is linked to the album because I think the movie the movie is sort of just like a.
Big long music video. I think for the new album.
It's confusing. It's it's fourteen thousand, is confused. It's that's bad for someone that bit like that is wild. Okay, So he's showing off the grandkids.
They love going on cruises.
He's so happy with his life after NYPD and tomorrow tries a little humor and goes, yeah, the place is falling apart without you, And then you know she has a good sense of humor, so she doesn't care. They walk and talk on the water. The waves have ducks floating in them, and I love that. And Craigan does know one of the old cops and he sucks obviously, and the DA had family connections. He's like in white collar crimes now and he was just like a rich kid,
and so that's that. Craigan says, don't reach out yet, though he rides on a high horse and I know an old life back in the two seven. He says, I'll go buy him lunch and I'll get all the gossip like a little schoolgirl. So we cut to Michelle and she's in the woodroom with blinds and she's telling her story. Her mom was out. She was drinking and drugging.
That's what her mom liked to do. And her dad walks in and the place is a mess because she was making hot dogs for her and her brother and burned herself and he got angry that she was cooking at six, and the dad's like, where the fuck's your mom?
Like, I can't believe you're alone.
So they were put to sleep, and then when the mom came home, they were screaming. There was a huge fight, and then Michelle started to her mom came running in, and that's when she told her mom about the burn. But then she looked at Michelle strangely and started going, what did your daddy do? Do you?
What did your daddy do?
And she didn't want her mom to be mad at her, and every time she said like, nothing happened, the mom would get mad. So she realized that she wanted to hear that it was her dad's fault and the dad was doing something to her, and she agreed to all of that and admitted it. And so the next morning,
the mom called the cops on the dad. Rollin's is like, so, your dad never touched you that night, and she says no. Her mom made her keep saying it, and she did what she was told, but she pleads that nothing happened that night. She swears, Chrisia tomorrow go to talk to the mother and she's really hot and she's walking very fast and they're barely able to keep up.
She hates the cops.
She's dressed amazing, great hair and jewelry like she's stacking the delicate gold perfectly, and she starts talking shit about her daughter and son almost immediately, that's a red flag. She's like, they're messed up. She's a drunk, She's always searching for something somewhere. This is all her dad's faults. Everything's because of the dad's and she's always talking shit and I'm late for work and she leaves. Amorro starts bitching a creasy like that. He doesn't even want to
do the case. So now the boy's head to the prison to talk to the dad, who's like, nothing happen. And they're like, well, then why would the mom want to do this to you? And he goes, I don't know. She's an addict, Like she would come home with a wild look in her eye. He goes, usually I would leave her alone, but I was fucking pissed. She left the kids alone in the house. They could have burned
the house down. And Amaro's like, so she screamed rape and convinced Michelle to lie and for you to like, I sit in jail.
It says shit in jail, which is funny. But if we're.
Sitting in jail, yeah, they're like, tomorrow's just like doesn't bite. He goes, she would set you up to like sit in jail for a marital fight. He goes, yeah, I've been thinking about this every day for seventeen years, motherfucker, Like it's on my mind. Amorrow's playing a little bad cop. Creasy plays a little good cop. This guy's like, I've been a good prisoner. I've been the best at I could. I write to Michelle and that boy. The boy's name's Will,
so that's his son. Every single week. I tell them I love them. He's like, Audrey was a terrible mom, and I was still there for them even though I was in jail. And now Michelle is saying it didn't happen, So what more do I have to do? So now we're in a work room and Crisey is so excited to meet Bayard Ellis and he is creaming himself and Benson is embarrassed for him. So now we have the same version from dad and daughter. And he's like, yeah, that's not enough to reopen a case. Rowin's had tried
to reach the retired cop, but there's no luck. Craigan starts walking in with Tomorrow and Rollin's is so happy to see him, and Crazy says, call me Sonny, and Rollins Is like, nobody else does this like, what are you doing? Cragan and Ellis do you know each other? And we're all like, okay, Craigan, what goods did you get from this gossipy lunch? What's going on? And he
did get something huge. He has a letter from Michelle's first grade teacher saying that actually Michelle was crying one day at school and told the tea teacher how her mom made her lie to the police. Careese has an idea, if they can prove that the DA had this potentially expulcat I can't expulcator exculpatory evidence and didn't share it, then that's a slam dunk. And Benson's even more embarrassed, Like everyone's just so embarrassed by Caresy.
He's just like can't.
Get enough a fucking Kragan of Ellis of the case.
He just like wants to fucking help.
And but also like you're giving advice to a legendary lawyer, Like you're giving him ideas that are basic. Maybe you're at Fordham Law or this, Like it's just embarrassing. Yeah, Craigan goes, Honey, hold your horses and then calls him Sonny, So we love it. I bet he loved that, and he's like it could be that they were forwarded and Cresey's confused, like, well, why wouldn't the defense use it?
That makes no sense, but then gets happy and smiling and goes, oh my god, just because justice is delayed, it doesn't mean that justice is denied and it's common how dead Panna annoyed. Ellis looks at him like not humored at all, and he just says, so you're new here. So now we're in a DA conference room and this guy O'Dwyer knows Ellis, well, you know, Elis is popular, and he remembers this case. It was his first case ever.
The jury deliberated for only a half an hour and he smiles remembering all this, and he goes, it was open and shut. And they're like, well she's recanting and he's like really again and he's like, yeah, she came in as a teen, but she was on drugs, so we really didn't find her credible. Benson shines in like uh, but like what about the letter from the first grade teacher. He's like, what are you accusing me of? And he's like, well, did you send the letter to the defense. He goes,
I absolutely did. It was nineteen ninety eight, and I remember the attorney's name. Her name was Cassie Muir Moore whatever, m u I R Okay. I did the classic thing where I don't eat. I chug a fucking iced coffee beverage, and now I'm in pain. I'm hungry, I'm fascious, I don't know how to survive. I'm burping, and it's like, take a.
Second, Take a second.
This actor is famous too, this guy, Robert Sean Leonard, who plays the he's in Dead Poet Society.
I thought he was in maybe original recipe My Crazy. Well, you know, that guy is very familiar. I didn't look into him because I was then, well, we'll meet Kate Cassie, and I do know fucking Cassie.
So that was wild. Okay, are you looking up who the guy was?
Yeah?
Yeah, he was in so this Robert Shan Leonard. He's in the Gilded Age at the moment. But oh, he was on House for one hundred and seventy six episodes.
That's how I know him. I was like, isn't he a regular on regular Law and Order?
But it's a different sort of like medical procedural different, which also had a lot of mystery elements to it house.
It was always somebody lying about doing something.
Well, he's also in two other but he's in transgender Bridge, which is yeah. Another Orange is the new black person and catfishing teacher. But how do I know him? I'm like, what, let me see if there's a rom common has passed.
Dead, poet Society, parabithea. No, it's like, nothing's really yeah, I really of disco. Nothing's really jumping off the page to me. Yeah, I don't know this man. Sorry to this man, I do not know. Sorry this man can he palmer? What a cool girl? Okay? So he you know, he's pissed. He's like, are you accusing me of something? He knows, he knows the person. He goes, I have no idea why she didn't bring it up in trial, but I fucking sent it to her.
He's also like, but also, the dude is guilty. I don't care what anyone else is doing. I know that he's fucking guilty. So Robin's and Creasy Knock knock knock. We're at Cassie's house and they want to talk about the Derek Thompson case. And I love her. She's from Sex and the city. She's Bitsy von Muffling. She Yeah, she marries Nathan Lane's characters.
Oh, I didn't recognize her. I love that.
Yeah, she's in two episodes because she also then gets pregnant, so she's in that episode.
She's Nathan Lane's like little Beard.
Well not Beard. They're married, they had a kid. They're like, they don't but.
Isn't he gay? Like and they kind of just I thought that had kind of an arrangement.
No, I think that was the whole thing, that the four girls were really like judgmental and making fun of him, and then they were at the wedding and they really saw how in love they were, and then they realized that, like they need to open their hearts up more to the possibilities of the world and not pigeonhole people. Because then Nathan Lamb then has a convo with Carrie of like, I know, people think I'm getting you know what I mean,
because the guy's pregnant. In the episode where Charlotte goes to doctor Mao.
I remember that too.
Yeah, one of the greatest names of a character, bits eevon Mufflet.
I mean, it's too good.
And so she's frazzled in this there's a scarf tied around her neck like a pirate.
The place is a mess.
She's holding a laundry basket, which meant she's.
On top of it. She is doing laundry.
She goes, I hated being a lawyer, I hate thinking about being a lawyer, and I got And then she goes and I got disbarred in two thousand and nine.
So she's done.
But they show her the teacher's letter and she remembers the case, and then all of a sudden, on top like this woman's clearly a mess, and on top of this desk she has all these files from being a lawyer years ago from disbarment, and the documents are right on top in Manila, like envelopes ready to be rifled through.
But don't you assume that they call before they go over sometimes? How do they know she's gonna be home? So I thought maybe she pulled the file.
Somebody also had a really good question for us on Instagram. They messaged They were like, how the fuck does Olivia's building not have a buzzer in it? Like later she's in a doorman building, but in earlier episodes people are always just knocking on her apartment door. There's never a buzzer, and I'm like, I bet you Cassidy is catching a neighbor. That's actually fully wrong because remember the one of the early season episodes with the guy from the Weeds. Yeah
he but remember people were taunting her and buzzing. Yeah, that's season like two three.
But there are a bunch of middle season episodes where somebody just goes knock, knock, knock, and she's like Cassidy or whatever, you know, like she just opens the door.
It's like an unexpected person. Well maybe they know the code, yeah, or they caught the door from a name yeah or something like that.
Who knows, But I don't think it's yeah, if they're really not consistent in that, and I wonder if they're always moving or like, what's going on?
Yeah?
Interesting, Interesting, we're sleuths, we're psychos, we're sloths. We're like Swifties for SVU, like it's the purple shirt.
They're like, we did not mean that.
There's something about the name Tommy, No, there's there's actually not nothing to coincidence.
It's a popular name. I know.
Well, our listeners are sending me screw screenshots seeing my name liking the certain tailor. Swift fan accounts, they're like, love to see you here.
I'm like I'm here. Hey, oh good good.
So this lawyer remembers getting the leather the leather the letter, but never followed up with the ta and didn't want to because she didn't really want to go that hard on the little girl. It would mess up my whole you know, her whole defense. And yeah, I guess you know, whatever Rollin's increase, you're like, damn, like one bad lawyer that quit and wasn't passionate that did it for her, like you know dad who forced her. Yeah, it's like so much school to do something that you hate, like
and then to be a public defender. Well, no, she was worse because up top they were like, oh a public defender and then I forgot who answers and are like no, much worse, like a low rate like poor ass lawyer.
He couldn't even get transcribed, like.
He thought he was doing something better, probably for himself or it's not a public defender, but it ended up being like maybe a cheap lawyer is even worse.
Yeah, so that's that's right. They did say that, like a b rate or something.
Yeah, yeah, So the lawyer meeting, it's lawyer meeting time. The reverends there, Michelle's there, and it's like, fuck, what are we gonna do? But this has to be enough to file a four to forty motion hearing on grounds of ineffective assistance of counsel. So best case is the conviction is vacated and then O'Dwyer drops the charges and the dad's like no, O'Dwyer hates my ass Baird's like yes.
But the good news is the judge is a progressive dude, outspoken on reforming the system, so this is going to be good for us. And the track record of this judge always goes with the defense. So Michelle is optimistic and the reverend but the daddy is still like, you know, suspicious. So now we're on the court steps. O'Dwyer and Ellis are meeting, and terrible news for Ellis. The good judge suffered a mini stroke and now we have to do
another judge. His name is Bertuccio, and that Ellis looks worried. Benson meets him and the client at corps and Will is there, Michelle is there at the reverend.
It's full house.
We meet the judge you know, it's Bertuccio, and the lawyers approach the bench after a request from Ellis. He's like, should we push the hearings since you were just to sign this case, and the judge does not like this insinuation and goes, we're gonna con you. He goes, I don't know who's not prepared. I'm fucking prepared. So they go back and forth begging daddy judge to pick their side, and the motion unfortunately is denied and the guy the dad,
goes back to prison. Gavel gavel. Michelle is so upset. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, Please do something. She's slipping out, like you got our hopes up for nothing. I should never have trusted you. She runs out of the courtroom. Benson's like, yeek Ben comes out at the bar enjoying, well, I don't know about enjoying, but she's drinking a glass of red wine. Ellis walks in and asks for whatever
she's having. Benson's goes, no good deed and inquires how Michelle's doing, and Ellis is like, she's with the reverend and he doesn't want her to spiral down, so he's making sure she's okay. They chat, but Benson gets a ping on her phone and it might be the missing link the evidence they need. Omaro texted them McCormick is back in town, so we're gonna.
Go meet this cop.
Now, we also get that the reason he's coming back is because Craigan kind of tricked him and told him a nut job named Ellis wanted to re open the case, so he's actually coming back to make sure it's closed. So it's like, wait, he's helping SVU to come make sure the case is buried. Why would he do that? So it's time to have some fun. So Capudo form Orange is the new Black who we love. I love great actor, great care. I mean, I'm obsessed with this dude.
He's wearing a suit jacket but also a Hawaiian shirt underneath, so we really love that energy, really portray his dirt bag. So he greets Craigan warmly and then meets Tomorrow, who hands him a cup to drink from right away.
So I'm like, are you getting evidence or what?
I Like, I did look into way too many things here that ended up not showing up, Like this cup was actually just a drink.
That Jesus quote was just the church.
Nothing is actually important, but I key, yeah swifty for SVU.
Maybe that's a shirt. I'm sure we'd get sued for that too. Okay.
Anyways, so the greeting is warm. Amoro sits on the table to communicate a real life friendly vibe and asks what he can tell them about this piece of crap Derek Thompson. He goes, oh, he's the lowest of the low did his own daughter. And then he calls the reverend a charlatan, which I thought meant slut, but it actually means a con man, a fraud. So I look that up.
Yeah, yeah, like, I think charlatan's are like also, like most like Joseph Smith and the people who like start Trump is a charlatan, you know, people that are just like full of it.
And they're like yeah.
And then he got Ellis, and fucking Ellis has all these friends in city Hall and this is where we're at, and he's like, oh man, that's same old trashy city.
What's going on? Tell me what's up.
Cragan's like, well, the girl's claiming her mom made her lie.
Audrey. He asks, Oh, no, she would never do that.
She was just trying to protect those kids from that pedophile and he goes, she's all broken up about this and they're like, excuse me, andmar I was like, hold up, hold up, hold up.
You talked to Audrey Thompson.
He says, yes, She calls me like right after you guys all started poking around, and after what she went through, she looks to him for guidance and support. And he says, you know, actually, he says, not only do they keep in touch after the case, but he knew her before.
He says, he broke up.
Domestic disputes there all the time, and this guy had history. And Tomorrow brings up the letter. The dude denies it, and he's like, dude is trying to convince him that he didn't do it, but he did it. He is sick and he's controlling and he's nuts. And that's the end of the meeting. Craigan says, I lean in him or catching a matinee. So he spins around while walking like capudo out and still pray playing the friendly game.
But during the spin he locks eyes with Amorrow and they communicate nonverbally.
During the spin.
Yeah, and now we have a Careesi thinking out loud, trying to understand, Like the fucking detective keeps in touch with the accuser. So the three domestic disputes happened, and the last one was a week before the accusation. So what do we know about this guy? You know, he's divorced from his wife two years after all this this the case happened, and then she died a year ago, very sad. So Amanda finds the divorce petition on her computer and the grounds are for adult tree and they
all like run to the computer. They stand above Rollins and holy shit, Audrey's name is in the documents as a correspondent. So Capudo is fucking the wife of a guy he just arrested. Cariese wants to party with this info. Ellis is, of course being a cock block and like, sure, yeah, I get this, but we have to prove the relationship started before the trial. Cariese calls Audrey hot box Audrey, which I.
Like, what do we do? Okay?
So Rollin suggests Michelle and Will but they were super young, and Benson's like, you'd be surprised what kids can do. So Michelle's also very fragile, like we have to be careful. Who's going to be able to communicate with her, like, who's going to talk to them? So obviously it's Benson. So Benson is with Michelle and Will and of course
the reverend's back there sitting paying attention. And they remember McCormick and he came over a bunch after the dad was locked up, and Michelle remembers the first time meeting him.
It was before Christmas. Mom and dad were fighting and mom knocked over the Christmas tree and he knocked her over, and she called the cops and McCormick came by, and she remembers her mom crying and McCormick hugging her, and Benson asks if there was any other physical contact, and they're becoming suspicious with this line of questioning, and the reverend cuts in and is like, well, some evidence shows your mom and the cop were hooking up. And Michelle
is shocked. Oh my god, she exclaims. Benson says, well, we're not sure, but you have any evidence that, and Michelle's like, fuck yes. That the mom went away for a weekend after the dad was already in jail. The kids stayed with the grandparents. She came back with a snow globe with a pink flamingo in it. So while their dad was in jail before or after the trial, she can't really recall exactly that, but you know that she was fucking in fucking Florida. And we know where
this guy is now Florida. I guess flamingos can be anywhere, but the airport in Tampa. There's a flamingo. So we're at the whiteboard. It's brainstorm time. All hands on deck. They knew each other six months before the trial. They have evidence to prove that they were in Key West together one weekend, which is a dream destination for Kiera and I. We really want to perform at Key West if any of you can make us that happen. Audrey got a disorderly and talks that weekend, so that's proof.
And then finally Criesy's like, come on, this must be enough evidence. Come on, Ellis, it must be. Ellis takes a drink of coffee and now we're back in court. And so now O'Dwyer and Ellis are sparring, and it's a different judge, So that's good. O'Dwyer's yelling, so he must know he's losing, and the judge grants a petition to appeal and fuck, yeah, there's going to be a retrial, but it's SVU. I wouldn't celebrate too soon, and the dad is also annoyed. He goes, why a retrial, Why
not just drop the charges right now. Ellis is like, listen, bro one step at a time. O'Dwyer walks over with a deal and he's like, Okay, if your dude doesn't want a retrial, here's the deal. Criminal Sexual Act in the first degree and time serves. He goes, so basically, if he says he's guilty, he gets to leave jail.
And the dad's like, fuck that, I would be a felon, and Benson shimes in and on the registry and Ellis is like, and you have to admit it in open court that you did it, and fucking that's a bad deal, but kay, or you know, it is what it is. But it would save his daughter the need to testify,
so saving her a little drama. And he's dumbfounded, like I can't believe he's taking this to trial again, and Benson's like, he really thinks you're guilty, and Alice is like, well, that's also easier than accepting that maybe he did put an innocent man in prison, and the dad is like, no, all this time that I've had, the only thing I have is that I didn't do it. That's all I have, and he cannot ask me to say that I did it.
And the Reverend's like, but he's going to keep you in jail forever, and the bailiff comes and cuffs him and goes, the truth will set me free, not a lie. Michelle is stressed. So now we're back of the court steps. O'Dwyer's like, your dude seems ready for court, and Ellie snaps back like, yeah, he's had seventeen years to think about it. The lawyer is like, I gave him a path out and Benson's like, yeah, but that should tell you something. You would rather sit in jail than lie
and say he did it? And Dwyer's like, no, it just shows me that he's a narcissist. If he really cared about his daughter, he wouldn't put her through this. He is all about ego and his name, and Alice is pissed, like, funny, you should talk about ego. Alice is like, nobody likes to admit a mistake, but there has been a miscarriage of justice, and we have the opportunity to make it right. He goes, we you mean a jury. It's up to the jurum. So he says good luck and skips off. So now it's court time.
The mom is on the stand and she's like, Michelle told her that the daddy hurt me with his peepee and the dad sighs and anger in his seat. The mom admits to knowing capudo pre trial. She says that her and Derek went through was nothing like what he put the daughter through that night. And now the dad makes a thinking face and I think this is another time where I read it into someone's facial expression that.
Was not there.
I don't think anything happens with this face. Alice is like thinking something above our heads. I feel as well. I don't think so I just need to relax. So she plays is the you know, I only care about my child's safety. So now it's Ellis's turn, and he stomps on up. He comes swinging you were involved with him and you guys spent the weekend in Florida? When was that before your ex husband's trial? And she's like,
who cares? He goes, right, if it's who cares? Then why not disclose that information to the DA or the defense council? And she's like, well, he was married, it was wrong. We didn't want the wife to find out. And her bangs are amazing. Also, Ellis doesn't buy it and is standing near the jury giving them a little razzle dazzle. He says, or you knew that would make you look bad in front of the jury and no one would believe you. Objection with drawn. And then it's
what time did you come home? He asks? She was not sure. He asked if she was drinking yes, fought with the husband, yes. And right after that is when your daughter chose to disclose you know what I mean. It doesn't make sense, like all of this is happening, and this is when she's going to reveal the secrets of molestation and she screams yeah, and he's like, okay, then why didn't you get medical attention for her or call the police that night? She said she wanted to
wait until he was out of the house. But the next morning is when actually McCormick was on duty, and he's like, you wanted to wait and call when he was working and she's like absolutely, not, I was waiting for him to get out of the house. And Ellis then asks if it was McCormick's idea to get him out of the house, and she goes no, but her voice is shaky, and so he's like, okay, so you came up with that idea all on your own objection withdrawn she looks beautiful. I have to keep saying that,
but she is a bad person. So now the dad's on the stand and he's like, I wasn't the best dad. I didn't have a lot of money, I worked long hours, but I tried my best. And my wife was never interested in that because she loved drugs and alcohol. And it cuts to Benson increasy, looking stern in the pews. They bring up how he kept in touch with them from prison because he knew they needed parenting, even if it was just through letters. Ellis goes, okay, so that night,
did you assault your daughter? He says absolutely not. He walks off. So now it's dwy Or time. So basically back in the day when they said what about the semen, he said, oh, she planted it instead of saying there wasn't any semen, but there actually wasn't semen. So he's like, I was just trying to make sense of it, and you guys are trying to trick me, and they're like, no, you actually knew there was semen because it's yours. So
that's their little fight. Now, Dwyer gets up and says, the only reason we are here is because your daughter is now recanting her original statement and you wrote her letters. Did you ask her in those letters to help you get out of prison? Do you think that is why she is recanting today? Did you manipulate her into it? He says, I only asked her to tell the truth. He says she did to the court and he yells no,
he said what her mother told her to say. And Dwyer says, and now she's saying what you are telling her to say. That's a good one. Yeah, but there is an objection and it is sustained. Wow, Okay, so he got him. Benson closes her eyes and Couresy drops his head. So now Michelle is on the stand. She says, you know, mom told me to say it, and I said it because I was six and I was scared of my mother, and I regretted it every day of my life.
But now it's Dwyer times.
So then you know this is a really good lawyer matchup, like this is the this is top tier lawyer a lawyer episode. I feel like they're both really killing him and really good, like written lines. So Dwyer goes, well, now you're saying no, but back then you said yes. And so then he makes her read old testimony from when she was six and it is graphic, and then he's like, okay, so you remember that and she says yes, and he's like, okay, so now do you remember you
told SV recently about your burned hand? And she goes yeah, and he's like, okay, so why doesn't the medical report the next day not mention at all? And she's like, because we were there for the rape, I didn't say anything about my burnt hand. But she's getting nervous up there, and he's like, is it possible you never burned your hand and actually your dad has convinced you that that happened.
Uh oh, she says, I don't think so, but he says, but it's possible your mom convinced you that you were raped even though you said that never happened, and her brain is combusting. He says, or maybe it's easier to believe your father didn't rape you. Objection sustained. He asked, did your father hurt you that night? And she says I know he didn't, and he goes, did you know or do you just remember he didn't? She says, I don't remember him doing anything. With conviction, she says this
and Dwyer's so fucking good. He goes, that is not the same as you remember that he didn't do anything. He's like, is this a story that you were told to remember? And he pushes again and says you are under oath? Did your father rape you? She's silent. He asks again. She cries and says I don't know. I was six. She turns to him and says, daddy, I'm so sorry. He walks away. Ellis asks to redirect. The
judge allows it. She sat on the stand. He walks over slowly and in a soft voice, says, I know how much it took for you to be here today. Did Dwyer bully you just now? And she says yes. He asked did that confuse you? And did you give him the answer he wanted to hear so he would stop, And she says yes, and he goes similar like when your mom when you were six, and she goes absolutely. He then asks again, did your father do that to you?
She says no, and then he asks, in fact, you tried to tell the truth to your teacher and a detective and she goes yes, and they wouldn't listen, and Alice says, I'm listening to you, Michelle, I'm listening and asks did your father rape you that night? She says no, no, he didn't. She stares into Ellis then looks down and you can see she's questioning everything because I think of what Dwyer said for like who the dad smiles and presses his lips into his mouth and Benson tilts her head.
Michelle is smoking a cigarette outside. Benson asks if she's all right, but she just is like, oh fuck, am I doing all this for my father or for me? And she's like, you don't get it, Like what's it like for people to think that my father did this to me? I used to say he was dead because I didn't want I want this part of my life to be over, and Benson goes, it is you made sure the truth was heard?
This time?
She goes the truth the truth is, I don't really remember. Benson stares off, like oh fuck, as she runs off, throwing her cigarette to the ground. So the jury, you know, it's jury verdict time, and the jury finds the defendant not guilty. He exclaims yes, and Bend's over and joy. He hugs Ellis and hugs Will and Benson looks over and Michelle is just sitting there, not happy at all,
and just hugs him somberly. Ellis walks over to Benson and says, we did the right thing, but the way Michelle is looking at Benson makes her ask did we Michelle looks upset and it ends.
It's a really weird episode and ending like you're just kind of like, wa but all the evidence is that, like you were framed by your wife having an affair with this cop, and like you know, she planted this seed to your daughter and then Samir Wiley's care.
It just feels like the the O'Dwyer the letters.
It's like because if he started writing letters every single week from when she was six, like who knows, yeah, capudo, and all of them are shady obviously, Yeah, yeah, mom sucks. Like this is all very upsetting and I'd like to know what Will damage is, Like why is Will have nothing to say the brother?
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And it's also kind of like did this incident exist in a vacuum, Like did he ever do anything else? Did he ever like touch you in a weird way? Like like you know what I mean? So it I don't know. I feel like he just fucked with her. They're just everyone has just fucked with her head so much that who knows what the truth is? And I guess that's the point of the episode. But don't go anywhere because the true crime is really fascinating.
Okay, so this is very close to what happens in this episode.
In nineteen ninety seven, eight year old Shaneia Kelly was staying home from school with her dad, Darryl Kelly, which sounds very close to Derek, but it's Daryl who worked from home as an elect like he worked at a store, but he was mixing electronics at home. So she's like hanging out with her dad. She eventually goes to her room to lie down, and at some point her mom, who did suffer with drug and alcohol addiction, suddenly bursts in with a belt, demanding to know what her dad did to her.
She later wrote, I.
Guess mommy was drunk or something end quote, and she told her dad didn't do anything to her, but her mom kept asking and threatening her with the belt. So it's like the episode, but there was a physical violence component to it where she had a belt, and so Shania said, I didn't want to get beats, so I made up a lie that I'd take back any day.
Now.
Shania's mother's name is Charade, and I don't know why SVU didn't use that. It's too good. So a week after this happens, Charade takes Shania on a little walk and asks her again about this abuse, and she says that Shania confirmed it. That said she could have been remembering the belts and was just telling her mother what
she wanted to hear. She's also eight, you know, they make her six in this episode, like gets a little bit older, Like I remember a lot more from when I'm eight than I do from when I'm six, you know. After that Charade and her mother, Shania's grandmother took her to a clinic to get checked out, where she told medical personnel she'd been assaulted, and they reported the allegations to the police and to CPS. A few days later,
police bring Darryl Kelly in for questioning. When they told him his daughter was accusing him of sexual assault, he was incredulous. He said, quote, come on, stop playing, You've got to be joking.
End quote.
So the detective was Thomas Mansonelli, who grilled Daryl for a while and told him a ton of lies to get a confession, like there were like his fingerprints were found on her thigh, and but that his semen was found on her so much like in the episode they said there was semen. He then said, oh, maybe my wife planted it, Like he could not figure out how they had this evidence, you know, and he totally denied
any of it happening. And he also had no idea that he should ask for a lawyer because he was like, I'm innocent.
And also SVU hadn't come out on television yet.
So at this point, this guy's thirty eight and he has no record, he has no felony record at all, but they charge him with rape, sodomy, and sexual abuse. He was offered a six to twelve year plea deal to plead guilty, and he said, no way, I'm innocent. And Shanayah testified against her dad, and he couldn't believe it when she came to because he was never allowed to see her from the time that he got arrested to court, and he couldn't believe that she was testifying.
And then apparently Sharade had already told the prosecutor by the time trial rolled around that she didn't think Daryl had done anything, like even the mom was like, I don't think he did anything. And the prosecutor fought to keep that little tidbit away from the jury, saying that it was irrelevant, and the judge agreed.
So the judge agreed that whatever the mom's.
Opinion of this is doesn't matter, and it's all on this eight year old girl's testimony. So in court, Sharade repeated the allegations but never got to say that she no longer believed they were true, that she was not allowed to say that. So in this case, there are no witnesses, There is no DNA. The medical exam found Shanaia's hymen was still intact and no definitive proof of
sexual assault or abuse had happened. There was just some skinny irritation which they said could have come from a lot of other causes, But Darryl Kelly was very eager to take the stand in his own defense. And while he was up there, he told the jury about his military experience, and he happened to mention the Vietnam Era, which he is too young to have served in, and people took this as him lying about being in Vietnam. And then I guess also on the stand he implied
that he had a purple heart, but he doesn't. And so this I think factors into him getting convicted. Because the trial lasted a week, it took the jury six hours to convict, and he gets sentenced to twenty to forty years. The judge specifically reprimandsed him during the sentencing about lying about his military service. And I'm also sure that there's a racial element here at play as well.
Darryl is a black man, Like there's just you know, and the fact that this little black girl is also trying to correct her story and recant and they're not believing her either. I just feel like there's a racial
element to all of this. So since their mother was struggling with addiction, Shania and her four siblings were sent to live with the grandmother with their maternal grandmother, and then when her grandmother asked her about it about a year after the trial, Shania told her that there had been no sexual assault of any kind.
She told the grandmother that.
And so when she was questioned by her father's a peal lawyer and asked how she came up with this whole story that she told on the stand, she said, she just made it up, like, you know, because they would ask.
Her like, were you on your back? Where were you? And she'd say, yeah, I was on my back.
Like basically, she just kind of improvised and went with the story on the stand. But it was they felt kind of a graphic and detailed story for a eight or nine year old to come up with. But another piece of information that was left out, which was apparently not in the taped interview, but was something that she did reveal at some point, was that charade the mother used to have very explicit adult conversations with Shanaia about sex and that she had seen her parents' porn videos.
So it wasn't that crazy for an eight year old who has been had these conversations with their mother and knew a lot about sex to be able to provide some of these details. So regardless, Daryl is thrilled that Shanaia has recounted and thinks he's on his way out of jail. And in ninety nine, Shanaia testifies that I think I've been saying Shanaia, but it's Shanea. I'm sorry. In ninety nine, Shanea testifies that she's lied in her
original testimony. The grandmother testified as well, and she also said that she heard a police officer promised Shaneia a bicycle if she told the truth, So that's not great. But the judge said that Shanea's new testimony was not credible. He said, quote to believe that it was all made up, rehearsed as a result of a threat of a beating by her mother is just not plausible.
I kind of think it's plausible. But he thought.
Sharade had pressured Shanea to recant so that Daryl could come home. So he's just stuck in jail now. He's initially not allowed to talk to his five kids at all, but he filed a motion in family court in two thousand and one and they did grant him permission to write and call his kids, so he wrote his kids often. They all responded to him a lot like. They all were like, we miss you, dad, Why are you getting out? Are you sure you're gonna be out for my sixteenth birthday?
Are we gonna go to Disney when you get out?
Like?
They really wrote to him a lot like it.
You know, it doesn't sound like they were angry at him, or you know that he had been abusive to the siblings at all. In two thousand and two, Shaneia wrote a letter to her dad in jail, and it said, Dear Daddy, I do feel bad about telling a lie. All I want to do is put it all behind. You want the truth, I'll tell you the truth the whole part I read earlier. Her quotes were from this letter where she said Mommy came in drunk and she had a belt, and this and that and that. That's
how she lied. She wrote, quote, I regret everything I said. I feel guilty when I talk about it. I feel that I should be in prison instead of you. I love you, Daddy, and the love I have for you can never be changed. Every time that I talk about it, I think thank you and God both hate me. End of quote, and her mom backs up her story. The mom says, quote, her statement that I threatened her with a belt after she came upstairs while apparently I was
in a drug induced state, is in fact accurate. The mother Charade told The New Yorker she hoped Kelly would get parole, and she says, quote, I'm just sorry about how things went down end quote. So the Mom's like, yeah, I threatened her with a belt. It's true. So it feels like there's really no there there. In two thousand
and three, Charade was clean. She got her kids back, and then she took them to visit Daryl in prison at green Haven, just like in the episode that's where he's imprisoned, and Shanea was so nervous to see him for the first time since the trial. It's been four years at this point, and as soon as she sees him, she starts to cry, and he runs across the room and picks her up and hugs her and tells her he loves her and he doesn't blame her. He said to her, quote everything that happened to me is not
your fault. And she told New York Magazine in that moment, quote, it was like I could breathe. So for the next ten years he's kind of just toiling away in jail. He's contacting all these Innocence Project type groups to no avail. He's trying to find a bay ort Ellis to get in his corner. And the thing was is that he was really serving time for a crime that it seems never occurred. And so when he asked his wife why she coerced Shanaia into the story, she said, quote, I was on a binge.
I don't know why I did it. End quote.
So in twenty twelve, a lawyer named Peter Cross starts representing Darryl pro bono, but he was unsuccessful in getting him anywhere in getting retried or appeals or anything. Shania in this period kind of loses touch with her dad for long periods of time, like she goes to college, she's kind of doing her own thing, but then she has a particular phone call with him when he happens to call the house and she's home for the weekend
from college. And then she started to get more and more adamant in her quest to free her dad from that moment on, and as she got older, So in twenty twelve, she's twenty three, she wrote a letter to Governor Andrew Cuomo, which kind of kicked off a reinvestigation, but ultimately they didn't believe her recantation. Like a bunch of prosecutors like revisited the case and were like, we just don't believe that this recant. So she started a
change dot org petition in twenty fourteen. I did look it up and it has one hundred and seventy five thousand signatures, but it has been closed. And Shaneia has also said, quote, I've grown to just be like, you know what, it was my fault, but I was young at the time, so I have to forgive myself.
So end quote.
Shaneia now is around thirty four, She has a husband and two sons. She has a career. She lives in the Midwest. So this is crazy. Like as of twenty seventeen, he was fifty eight. He was at Collins Correctional Facility in Erie County, had been moved. That's about thirty miles from Buffalo, And in twenty eighteen he was up for parole for the first time. So gosh, twenty eighteen, that's about he's already served twenty years.
Basically, nineteen or twenty years.
Shaneia sends the parole board a letter before his twenty eighteen parole hearing that's read quote, I am the alleged victim, the alleged victim, and quotes in the case, and I feel it necessary to let everyone know my father did not do the acts he is charged with. I was never molested, raped, and or sodomized end of statement. So it's really wild. A ton of people were writing about this case in the twenty tens. The New Yorker did an article, the big article the New York Magazine. They're
all in my sources. Both of those pieces New Yorker and New York mag were written by Jennifer Gonnerman, who still works for The New Yorker and wrote a big piece about Khalif Browder that was a Pulitzer Prize finalist. She covers a lot of story about wrongly accused people.
NBC News interviewed Shaneia. There was just a lot of coverage going on about like is this man in jail for a crime that never actually happened, And when I google it now, there is absolutely nothing written about it since twenty seventeen, which is six years but I looked it up and Darryl was granted parole. Darryl Kelly was granted parole. I looked him up in the inmate look up finder that you and I love to use so much. He was granted parole on November twentieth of twenty nineteen.
His parole status says discharged with an effective date of twelve, twenty seven, twenty two. So I wonder if that means that the parole lasted for three years and now is over.
But I don't know.
People can let me know. I don't really know what a discharge effective date is. He's currently sixty four, but there is like nothing online about how Shaney is doing, how he's doing, whether they've re connected or anything, or whether they've sued the state.
Well, I don't know if he could sue the stake because the appeals didn't go through it.
That's true, he's just on but like, I don't know, it just feels like he served twenty years in prison for something that didn't happen, like and kind of everybody involved says nothing happened.
Well, the fact that the mom admitted to just making it up and she doesn't know why, and.
The physical threat.
Like I understand the show changes it because they want to make it more like you know, TV cinematic, et cetera. They had to make it kind of like ambiguous at the end of whether happened or not. But it feels to me like in the real thing, it doesn't feel like a crime occurred.
Agreed. And I just think that both the attorneys were so good and I think, yeah, that added to their little wrastle Dad.
I don't know how to call it.
They're like their job as lawyers is what put doubts and the like. Those were good statements and questions and like they really nailed it in.
Suspicions Ellis, I feel like his redirect on Michelle was like masterful, Like how he's like, do you feel like you need to give answers that make people not be mad at you and just give people what they want to hear?
And it was like, like that was amazing.
But yeah, Also, I think also the age thing, she is six, Like I don't remember a ton of from when I'm six, but I remember a lot more from when I ate nine. So the episode changed it a bit, But I'm glad he's out. He did twenty years in prison, and then that's all too much.
I know.
Well, this episode, we actually don't have a guest this week, so we are just gonna dive right in to our post mortem. So postmortem tricky. I mean, the episode wants you to believe one thing. The real life story seems to me pretty cut and dry. But the episode, this is one of those ones where what's the one that's like the classic he said, she said with Shannon Sassimon.
It's called Doubt, Yeah, Doubt, the episode Doubt.
I mean it's like that one ends much more abruptly, with like a total cliffhanger and like a you'll never know kind of thing, and then this one too is kind of like, ugh, well, what's.
The I don't know.
Normally we end a little bit more black and white in these s few episodes.
So no, it's really upsetting.
I mean, I think the thing that haunts me is in the trial when they're like, yeah, the mom told her what to do, and now the dad is, yeah, what she should say, And that's when it clicked where I'm like, oh my god, is she just being continuously manipulated by these two evil people, or you know, is it the truth that's tough.
It's it is. It's a tough one.
I do think the way the episode has it like made up, like it's just too much of a coincidence that the mom was fucking the cop investigating the case like that that also he did it, like I don't know, like that would be kind.
Of But she looks so sad when they hutt.
Yeah she does, But I think that could be also because what you're saying, like does her dad love her or was he like using her just to get out of jail, Like does her like her mom did that. It's kind of like she's sad also because she spent her whole life in this which I'm sure is true of the real girl as well, like in this web of like kind of being a child caught in this web of like adult bullshit, you know, like like parents using each other, using kids as like pawns against each other,
you know. And also this episode is coming out right after the oscars, as we talked about in the in the beginning, and they did have Andre Brower in the in Memoriam, and that really hit me. That really hit me like a ton of bricks. I weirdly love the in Memoriam so much. But it's like as we get older, we're just knowing so many more people in it. We used to when we were younger, just to be like, you know, your parents would watch and go or whatever, and now it's like all these people that we know
and love. Matthew Perry was sad. You know who didn't get put in it? Lance Reddick another SVU alum. Suzanne Summer's not an SVU alum.
My most famous in Memoriam is when I went to the Porn Awards and they did it in Memoriam before this award show started. But obviously it's like the porn world so mostly sad, young tragic death. Oh my god, you watch a like a montage of very young dead people. And then Cardi B came out like it was really insane. It was insane.
Oh my lord, they're really playing with your emotions at the Porn Awards.
Fuck god.
I would like to go down in history and say I had not mention Taylor Swift once.
Thank you, you keep continuing, you keep going.
Are you happy I didn't mention Taylor. We can go on with you know, it's sister peg. Let's go into our what would Taylor Swift do. I'm sorry, this is
our segment what would us, Sister peg do? Our weekly segment where we direct you towards an organization, a blog, post, a book, something to give you more info about what we talked about today, And honestly, for this episode, I kind of just wanted to direct to the Innocence Project, which works to free the innocent and prevent wrongful convictions and create fair, compassionate, equitable systems of justice for everyone.
We've talked about them before, but it was it's been a while, so I just wanted to put them back in everyone's mind. They work to pass transformative state laws and federal reforms and advance the innocence movement using DNA and other scientific advancements, and help people rebuild their lives post release, which is really important, especially when we're hearing about in New York City this governor who wants to make like violent offenders not able to ride the subway anymore.
It's like recidivism is already such a horrible issue. How do you expect anyone who has committed a crime, done their time to get back and reintegrate into society. They can't get to their job.
But that's a side note to find it more about ongoing cases, additional information from your local innocence organization because I believe they are by state, So you can find your local innocence organization, volunteer, donate, and more go to Innocenceproject dot org, which will be posted in our story's day of this episode's release and saved forever in our WWSPD highlight on our Instagram page, which is that s messed up pod.
Fuck that Governor. There's already cops and fucking military all over the trains. It is so stupid, not necessary. This is not what anyone asked for. Fuck this Governor. Yeah, but as New York I'm ever happy with any of their leaders. I just feel like it's Boso after Boso and nothing ever changes here. No. Yeah, next week we'll be doing Crush from season ten, episode twenty.
It is a good one and.
We have a great, great guest, a really fun guest.
So you guys, yeah, you'll be shocked, surprised, gag gooped all of it. Yeah, all right, bye, bye, next get us Bye. That's messed up as an exactly right production.
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Chamberlain, and to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Koperski for our theme song and Carly gen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media Dundy