Pattern Seventeen w/ Josh Pais

Of the law and order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our stories.

Done done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up an sv podcast.

I'm one of your hosts, Kara Klank.

And I'm Liza Traeger. We talk SVW crime. We have celeb guests up top. We chit chat, we get.

Yeah, I mean we had.

We've had a lot go on since we last recorded an intro, and I feel like we're in the full time machine now where this is coming out so late. So if you follow us on Instagram, you're probably like, yeah, we know all of this, but we did.

Or if you see us at the live shows, define spread some gossa. Also, thanks for coming to see us in the Pacific Northwest. Oh my god.

We had so much fun Vancouver and Tacoma and Portland. You guys were so fun. Thank you guys so much for coming out. Everybody was I mean, in Vancouver, we took a photo, we took a video of ourselves down by the waterfront where there was this like sort of artistic rain drop behind us. When we got to the show, a woman had already crocheted us our own rain drops, and I was just like, you guys are wild and loved it. My kids are loving the rain drop and they are playing with it often. But I wanted to

It was incredible.

It was a moment I'll remember forever, like for sure.

Truly one of the like one of those things where I'm like, this only happened because I'm friends with Lisa, Like I would not have gone to this probably on my own. I certainly wouldn't have done what ended up happening, which was I was like I had to give blood the morning of, so I was like, gonna pick up Lisa, but it was gonna take too long at the blood, so she just took an uber ahead of me. So then she's texting me from the place I'm getting there

You have to get us into the press area. And I'm like me, just about the pen. It's like, you know, I could be in a fan area. It was like to the side, you couldn't. Yeah, you couldn't be the ceremony. Yeah, you couldn't hear the ceremony. We talked to someone after, so it was just like just to stand there. It was it was atrocious. It was weird. I just didn't get it. But it is on Hollywood Boulevard. There just

Yeah, it's like yeah, it's like it's like to me, I would compare it to like I would compare it to like the people who wait out line outside of like red carpets or whatever. Like you can see stuff at the oscars if you get there early, and you like you can see the celebrities walk down the red carpet. But this is like such a small area on a busy street that they can't make it.

That they can't make it so that you can watch it like there's just.

No angle where regular people can watch it unless you stand in the middle of traffic and trust us. People were trying to do that, and the security kept being like, you gotta move, get out of here, because I don't think they want people to get like, you know, fully hit by a car in the middle of a star ceremony. But so I get there and Lisa goes, you got to get us into the press area, and I go, well, why can't.

You do it?

And she's like, because I gotta stay in here and keep my spot in case this is the best we can get. And I'm like, okay, Like, and I have been in a press pack. You also had like blowout curls. You looked business.

I was.

I was undressed. I was wearing my like jokey Wu tang jacket. But like I was like, okay, okay, I actually have been in a press box before, and this isn't like the worst I can do. The worst they're going to say to me is no, So I guess I can give it a shot. So I go up and I see this woman in a severe ponytail and a camel coat and we will call her camel coat. The rest of this time, and I can tell she's the head bitch in charge.

I want to hire her.

Yeah, one has a no nonsense look. She is like just fucking the bitch in charge. So I'm like, I hear her going media check in and she's like looking around and she like her and I make eye contact, and so I go up and I go, yeah, I don't know if my RSVP went through, but I have a popular podcast about law and Order SVU.

And she goes no.

I go, I like, she just said no at the word podcast and I go, well, I go, I go, we have like a lot of listeners and our podcast is literally named off from an iced tea quote and she goes, oh really like that like melted her a little bit.

She was like, wait, why didn't you RSVP?

And I go it wasn't me, it was our pr people, Like I fully like I wouldn't even tell our people we wanted to go, you know what I mean, Like I'm blaming it on anyone I can.

And I'm like it was just a snuff woo, you know.

And she goes, well, it's really full, like we're full right now, and I go, any chance anybody won't show up?

And she looks down at her paper.

She goes, everybody's checked in, and I go, anyway, I could just stay around for a little bit and see what happens. And she goes, yeah, why don't you do that? And I go, you want to write my name down? And she goes like you could.

Tell she did not want to write my name down, and.

I go, it's kaar And she was having a really hard time with clank and I was like, all right, cool, I'll just be right over here. I magically get a spot right in her eye line that's right outside of the media area. Casey's cracking up. You cannot believe This's like Scooby Doo shit I'm doing, and like so like I'm staying I'm right in her eye line, and I'm just scrolling my phone. I'm really just reading text from

And so then when the thing is about to start, she goes.

The assistant looks at me and goes, okay, you're in just you, and I go no.

I was like, it's just me and my co host.

She goes, just you, and I go, you cannot make me Sophie's choice this shit, like please, Like I cannot. I'd rather send Lisa in alone, like I'm not gonna just go in by myself. And so I I was like, please, we'll stand close together and Camel Coke can see us kind of having this like this one on one, and she goes, just get him in here.

So I text the said I go hurry now Lisa. Well, and happened, well, yeah, because you said you wrote hurry. So I take off and a man in the fan area goes look at her, go and she's on the move. She's on the move, baby, And then the one friend A made is like, where are you going.

I'm like, I think we're getting in, And I.

Zipped on in and we were in the tented area like feet away from the action. Honestly, well I don't really know measurements, but we were so close, and we saw everything. I mean, we saw baby Chanel leap into Marishka's arms. We saw Coco arch her back taking photos near her daughter.

We saw on all fours, by the.

Way, on all fours, on all fouring the star.

I'm in the back of those photos.

Oh yes, If you guys see any of the photos the iced Tea and random people have posted of it, you can see Liza all I got. I found a photo on Twitter of her whole body. But you can also see just like like knees down of Lisa behind Coco while she's like sexually kissing the star of I.

Yeah, definitely not good footwear.

I'm embarrassed about my rebox, but it happens.

But also we.

Got the scoop that usually only like fifty people are in the tent or seventy, but there was a one hundred and fifty because he's so popular. Everyone was wearing funny shaped hats with feathers, and the stench of weed was strong.

It was potent. Yeah, it was strong.

It was I was gonna say the word robust, but that's not a word I use. But and there's a Simpsons episode with that word. But I think it can be. I think anytime you want, you can introduce you new vocab. But not only were like the SVU family strong there, but we had Russell Simmons was there, Chuck d ice Cube, Mike Epps was there.

I mean it was really fucking cool.

Yeah.

One dumb bitch, I would say, was the narrator who is at the host the hosts of the shes like.

The she I think she's like the president of the Hollywood Chamber of Commerce that does the Walk of Fame, or she's the president of like the Walk of Fame Society, and it's like your entire life is like reading out people's names and like introducing people.

She called it SUV. Let's start there. Yeah, she called it SUV. She could not say Odafin Tutuola for the life of her. I think if it was a life or death situation, we'd be attending her funeral. She could not say it. And then she said Detective Olivia Benson. And so when Marishka got up there to do her speech, she said, it's Captain Olivia Benson and we went we went wild.

Yeah, it was really it was cool, Like I just you know, I've met celebrities like I don't get that starstruck, but like Marisia Harkinzey is definitely a person that will star strike me for sure. And she was so close, Like I've never I lived in her neighborhood for a decade on the Upper West Side, never ran into her, and I've just never seen her in person, and this was the first time, and I was like, wow, Like she was so gorgeous.

Her hair looked amazing.

I loved her shoes and her hair really was.

Papa, and she was with her daughter, and she had her daughter with her and it was like a little girl's trip. I think I saw on her Instagram later it was like girls weekend or something like so cute that she just brought her out there for that, and I mean, we posted this on our Instagram, and like she definitely this. This has been like reposted on random

Yeah, And I just didn't know he was so prolific in friendship, you know, like obviously a music and acting career, but everyone really like loves his friendship and he loves them and respects people's opinions and wants to work hard and doesn't mess with the bag, you know. I mean, Casey's already doing the flag Are you out of your mind? We we have so much to say, oh my friend. So Marie Fauston did this like why are you single? Live show and she hands red flags out to everyone in the audience.

They get to like wave them, yeah, because like.

Single people come up and then they like make fun of why they're single. So if you're if you want to go to that show, that's the thing. But yeah, I've never actually seen a good moderator. The Pailey Center moderator I saw sucked the variety of my Like, I've never been in a place where I go, Wow, that moderator's crushing it. And I'm always like, how the fuck did this woman get this job? And why am I not moderating? I mean I don't.

Yeah, I run a free comedy show on Wednesday nights in Los Angeles, and I ask every comic if it's not obvious I'm like, how do I say your name?

Like I want to say their name correctly.

I want to get their credits right, like you are, like that's your only fucking job as a host. And this woman like just I mean, she was smiley, she seemed happy. She did not know any information. Everything she had she was fully reading it. She couldn't say marishka hargatay. She said marishkah and she gave up after hard, like she couldn't even finish it. We didn't get a haggardy like it was not it was not good, but everybody was having a blast. I was starstruck by baby Chanelle.

Is cute and she walks up on that stage and she is she loves being a part of it all.

She really enjoys it.

Well.

It was so cute because Iced Tea like referenced her, but he didn't really say come up here, and she just got up and like walked up onto the stage like yep, I'm gonna be up here, and then she was just up there behind the podium but you couldn't really see her like the whole time next to her dad, and it was so adorable, like she just got an agent, and you can tell why.

There were moments. I mean, Murushka walked right past us going on to her car, and we both just stood and waved and like we each had intentions of what we would have and wanted to say, maybe a selfie, but like it was just too powerful. It was it all happened so fast. But we got to hang out for a while after the ceremony is over. You know, there's press there and everyone's kind of chit chatting. And then when iced Ty was finally ready to go. I

I said, congratulations, Well, earlier Lisa Ice passed Lisa because afterwards it was really just a clusterfuck of people taking photos with the stars. So I see was like walking by us. We didn't want to bother him, but Lisa goes congrats Ice, and he kind of just like didn't respond. And then later I go congratulations and he was like he kind of grunted at me.

So I don't know.

Hopefully we'll get him on the pod and we can figure out what his mindset was that day.

Yeah. Also, okay, so yesterday, no big deal. I went to a Michelin star Indian restaurant. Ooh, what is name called. It's called Sema and it's in Greenwich, and I went with Nimesh Patel, you know, a Patel.

That's why we we got a table.

I mean, because it's one of those where you know, you have to get up at midnight book a reservation. So but he is a famous Indian man, so we got a nice table right away. The chef came out said hi to us. We got to talk to him and then we you know, I didn't order anything like no mash keupt ordering, but they could tell that I am white and they brought me a yogurt sauce, which was fine.

Because you're not a big spice girl either.

Like I mean, no, I was keeping it together, but you know, the beats, yeah, the beats, head kick. I don't know what to say, but we had lobster. I mean it was really cool because I don't eat Indian food often at all because of the spice, and like I don't know, like curry is messy and I like to eat in my bed. But it was so good and it felt really fucking cool. And it's the first Michelin Star Indian restaurant in the country.

Wow.

Really yeah, So have you been special? I don't know if I've ever been to a Mechelin Star restaurant at all. Oh really yeah? Oh that's wild.

Well, like, which ones have you been to?

I've been to a bunch because it's something that I, you know, I try to do. But also this trip, I went to a Jean George restaurant called Percy Street with my and Joel, And this was actually on my list of things I wanted to discuss because this happened two days in a row and it fucking enraged me. So the one day, I was in Seattle at the Crocodile or here, and after thanks everyone that came to the show, and then me and a few of the people that work at the venue went across the street

It just really bothered me.

Now cut to our friend knows the bar manager at this like Jean George restaurant, and we order what.

We're sitting at the bar.

We got there early, We're having a great meal, and then the bill comes and I turned to her and I go, hey, can you tell me what they comped so we can tip on top of it? Because I knew they were going to cover some desserts and drinks. I just knew it, So I go, let me know what was free so we can tip more. He comes up to us and he just graduated culinary school in twenty sixteen.

Like he is young, he's in his twenties.

He comes up to us and gives us the speech on how to tip.

Thank god, I've been through therapy.

But like he just goes, So, you know, I took some stuff off the bill, and customary in our industry when you take step you tip on their original amount. And I handled it well, and I try to be funny about it, and you know, like we just I changed the convo to be about other stuff.

But my head, I.

Wanted to be like, you think.

You're the first fucking restaurant that's camped me, Like are you out of your mind? We're over a decade older than you. We we were just talking about it, and I just couldn't believe it happened two days in a row, because I was already mad from the night before.

So what'd you say?

I just went, oh, of course, And then Joyel was just like did I not do.

That last time I was here?

And then I could tell she was annoyed because it's like, why the fuck do you like? And so then I just went, well, I'm so scarred with my father that I'm always on it. And then he just started talking about all the cultures that don't tip and I was like, all right, whatever, and then it just moved on. But I don't. I just am like I don't get it. And then I had another man's plaining thing that wasn't about many. But I'm at a comedy seller. I do

It's like the cigarette stoop.

Yeah, And I'm exiting the door with Rob a couple of our friends, and a guy who's sitting there turns to us and goes, uh, that's not the door, guys, And I go, I can use whatever door I want. And I hope he was humiliated in front of his day. And Robbie was just like, wow, you just had that ready.

It really annoyed me. Yeah, there's the moon.

The moon is in a weird place where men think they can tell you what to do.

But the tipping of it all was just like what you think, we've never been to a nice restaurant, like I, yeah, it's very confusing to me. And while we were talking, I was like bringing up La bernadett I was like bringing up all these places, like and she lives in the building his girlfriend lives and that's how they know each other. So it's like, we all can afford this meal, sir. It just it really got me going. Can you comment?

I also, I mean, that's ridiculous, Like, I'm proud of you for your restraint, but I also I'm surprised you didn't, like, sort of passive aggressively rip him a new one, because that's what he deserves.

Well, it's his it's her friend, you know, they each other. Whatever you want to be, you want to be cool. I wanted to be cool, but I wish, I wish, I said, do you think this is the first time a dessert has been comped for me? Yeah?

Like, what are you talking about?

Well, I told you how famously I went to a dinner with a friend who you know, and it was fully comped, like almost the whole meal was comped, I think, and he only tipped and he only gave like I don't know, like he just did not tip enough. And I felt horrible, but I like didn't have cash, and I was like, I can't be like, here's my credit card, can you put extra tip on this?

You know what I mean?

I remember now, I couldn't do anything about it. Like, but I was like, you are like a restaurant guy, this is fucked up. Also, I'm crazy. I've been to plenty of Michelin star restaurants. I don't think I realized how common they are. I've been to a bunch. Yeah, I could tell you were a search something online.

I was like, well no, I was just like, wait, what are the ones in LA?

And I've been to like Gwen and I've been to Redbird, and I've been to like a place of Providence.

Providence I went to, which is very That's one of those like.

Here's your tiny little thing with foam and a little piece of sprig of whatever, you know, like and they bring you like twenty things and you know it's cute, but everything the presentation is wild.

Okay, we should get started. I know we have more stuff, but another day, another intro. We have a great episode lined up for you guys today, So this is SNL.

Stick around, We'll be right back.

Okay, We're in season sixteen, episode nine. We're doing Patterns seventeen. And I watched this twice in one week, and even the second time watching and I was like, wait, I don't remember anything like it was like I keep feeling surprised with this episode.

I don't know why, but I.

Watched it like last week and then last night I had to go back and look up a summary of it to be like just to check one thing, and was.

Like, wait, that happened. Yeah it is.

It is weird. It's like an episode that won't stick in your brain or something, but why because it is really good. It's shocking.

It feels even more like a movie than anything. But same. We watched a prep for the interview. I watched again yesterday and it took me halfway in to be like, oh, yeah, I remember this. Finally.

I can't believe you had the same experience.

It really is totally.

Fucked up and weird, but it is so good.

So we open up on a big light brown leather bag and it looks like a coach bag, if you know, that helps you visualize. And it's giving off the vibe of affordable luxury. And this woman is wearing a green plaid shortcoat with matching green nails, and she's sneaking around the city. She does seem stressed. She puts her keys into a business lock and then it opens up. The metal shields of the like the covers of the glass doors.

Do they have a name?

Security gates, I think is what they're called, right, but a gate his gates.

This is like.

Solid right whatever, yeah, but hopefully and we're all together. It's like the covers. It's the covers so no one gets into your store at night. It's rolling up slowly. I could tell she wishes it was faster. She's looking around. She opens these coffee shop doors, and then an arm appears and pushes the door in, and I'm like, and then it's just iced tea, so a nice sigh of her life. And then Benson appears as well, and she's like, sorry, sorry, And then the girl is like, sorry, sorry, it's coming

This is the most far fetched thing that's ever happened on SVO.

You're gonna find the latex glove from days ago in Chinatown on the streets of New York. Crazy, what like it really is, like a gibbon popping out of a basketball is more like grounded than this. I like that is.

The New York version of a needle in a haystack, Latex love in Chinatown.

You're not gonna find it.

You're gonna find it, but you're gonna find a lot of other ones too.

And some are not gloves. So did that ever happen to you?

When I was little, and you know, I played with all the neighborhood kids in the block, there was a kid who found a used condo and went, what it like?

Touched it like that because at first you think it's it's like the thumb of a glove, and then you're.

Like no, yeah, we were all really upset with him.

Okay, so Finn is like, maybe this guy like stalks her. It seems like so, you know, he wore a condom, he knew how to make her pass out. This is a pro, and they know that he's going to do it again and again until they find him. So we go into some dramatic credits and we're back and holy shit, they found the glove.

They found the glove.

Of course they found the glove.

It was in a sewer great and cool, all right, take sewer.

Great, untouched by water or anything that would wash away evidence.

It's just wild. And when you think sewer great, do you think the movie it or now and then or nothing?

Oh?

I definitely think of it. I feel like more. Yeah, no, ande then's a blind spot for me. You know, I know I've seen pieces, but I've never seen the whole thing. There's a really dramatic sewer great moment. Oh oh and.

Get good stuck Oh okay, Well yeah they get stuck, but then they get pulled out. Yeah, they get pulled out by the neighborhood weirdo and then they learn compassion.

Right, yeah, like the like the next door neighbor in home alone. He was just a nice man that needed to talk to his daughter and not scary.

Yeah, or a Boo Radley.

Yeah.

Real classic.

So Finn, Careesi and Benson are at the corkboard talking. Rollins walks in and apologizes for being late because coneed was on her block and the transformer was out, there's no hot water. She had a shower at the gym, and Benson's like, girl, if you're gonna come up with an excuse, please don't oversell it, and Rollins is like, copy that.

But also, do you have to shower every day for work?

Like?

Who cares?

You're a cop?

Like like if my water was out, I'd be like, oh, fuck yeah. I don't think I would make an extra stop to go shower unless I already didn't shower yesterday.

Unless it's been a couple days. You know, you've been playing the craps tables. We know this is a lie anyway, but what do we know.

What it is? Though?

And I don't think they really give clues here like for it.

But you're right, I think I think they're laying the bread crumbs of the gambling problem right, I don't know where we are.

I gotta look it up.

I really with Rollins, she causes so many problems it's hard to keep track, you know what I mean. It's like, which season of problems is this? So they filler in and Rollin's asks about ViCAP. So Benson turns and asks like, Creasy, did you do that? And he looks like a kid who did not do his homework, And Rollins is like, I mean, it's a comprehensive nationwide database. And Creasey's like, yeah, yeah, I'm about to do it. So Rolin's just takes over

So New York, Yes, so New York.

I mean, I'm sure other cities have street parking, but it's just alternate.

Side parking in New York is like the nightmare.

Why when people have a car you have to like move every other day in case you don't know.

Yeah, I mean my block in la is frustrating just because it's from four to six thirty am, like.

Which which is I've never heard of anything or anything. I mean eight am is the earliest I've ever seen, maybe seven, And Lisa's is like, yep, get up and move your car at four o'clock in the morning.

It really makes no sense.

I only wonder if it's because you're in your school, but who knows. Like I live on a grace, by the grace of God, a no changing over street, and it's very helpful because you know, Lisa leaves her car with me for like months at a time.

Yeah, and I don't have to move it well, because in West Hollywood you always said I was lucky because my block didn't have any permits and that was like.

Oh, that's very rare in West Hollywood.

Yeah, but I didn't get that luck in Highland Park. And I do have to move my car by four in the morning because sometimes if it's like nine AM and you get home late, you're like, man, whatever, I'll move, you know, I'll sit in a lawn. Yeah, but you're not fucking playing games that early. So this girl got up to move her you know, the car, and a man grabbed her from behind. He held latex glove. He

D yeah.

While she talks on the phone, Creasy gets up to greet Ice and Benson. Ice fills them in gloves, yes, humming, yes, DNA no face no, So he targets them and knows their routines. Rollin's hangs up the phone and reveals that there are three open rape cases in Atlanta with the same emo. They have rape kits, but they have not been tested, and Benson's like, oh great, not this again.

Creasy folds his arm like a true ally.

He's pissed. Benson asks are they testing them now? And of course, the answer is no, they're in storage. They think, so these other cases are sixty years old, and Atlanta doesn't give a fuck. Benson asks if Rollins can head down to Atlanta and handle this, and she's like, oh, yeah, it's such a boys club down there. I'll just bat my eyelashes and act helpless careesy volunteers to go. Benson says, how about Finn Rollin's whispers thank you to her?

Hello?

Wow?

Oh I.

I didn't realize how much how disgusted she was by him.

I think at the beginning though, they all think he's really annoying, like they're setting it up like he's annoying, he makes mistakes, he's like a real like uh, you know, he has definitely a glow up personally in this series, where like he becomes a person that everybody takes seriously. But at the beginning, I feel like nobody did. So they're like, I don't know if it was about the romance stuff or if it was like, I'm not gonna send you down to Atlanta with this fucking idiot, you know, like I.

Can't tell, I can't tell, but she seems to.

Really, you're not gonna make you ride on a riding coach in a middle seat with this fucking dumb dumb.

So right at this little meeting time, Trevor Langan walked and he's ready to chat with Benson. They enter the office and it does seem serious. Finn looks at Rollins and goes, you know, it might be a good time to get away. Things are things are going wild up in here. So there's a lot going on. You know, you have no hot water, and she goes what and then goes, oh, so she's caught in a lie. I wish I didn't realize up top and then reassures to Finn she's fine, but he does not believe her. Rollins

And Amanda tries to shut him up.

And then the Atlanta cop that's there is an SVU alum hardcore okay. So he played the racist dad and raw that had his child murdered for insurance money.

We cover them.

He was also in Justice, which we also covered where he was in ex con who wrote letters and wanted to have.

Sex with the judge's daughter.

Mm hmmm. He's in eight episodes starting from season one, So he's like a true og. Like people talk about the Michael O'Keefe rule, but I think it's the this guy rule. His name is Mike with a myk, so like yeah, but he's so season one, two, three, seven, thirteen, and sixteen, and he's in four episodes as this guy Captain Sam Reynolds, and he's like, you know, the rape gets are twelve hundred of tests, so we can't really

So yes, but also do the police take an oath that they will only defend virgins?

Like is that part of it? Like what?

This episode has so many layers and we'll get to all of them.

But I really really love it. That's why it's wild.

I kept not being I kept being on the edge of my seat even though I watched it twice every nith So he doesn't believe the women even though they all had consistent stories, so like, what the fuck? And you know, Rollins is like, well, maybe if you tested them, something might have popped, and he doesn't like Amanda's New New York attitude. So they get dropped off in this huge, giant warehouse. We've seen this a million times in SVU, just boxes and boxes. So tall Finn tells Amanda, I

A dear personal friend.

Uh.

Fun fact, he was supposed to be on Watch What Happens Live with Us and our plan was to try to get him to be on our podcast in person, but the schedule switched and we ended up not on with him.

But I still think we can try to get him.

Yeah, he's uh he plays this creep in another episode and so oh that'll be perfect. But also with Harry Hamlin, obviously we say his first and last name always like her his wife Lisa Rena.

And then I always think about Jackie Cox's Snatch game.

Oh, she played Renna. Yeah, she's well known for Renna and she was very good.

And you know, if it wasn't for Gigi Goods Little Robot, I think Jackie Cox would have won.

Yes, that would have been a Jackie Cox. Listen.

Harry Hamlin is kind of an amazing person because he straddles like the full trash world of reality TV as well as like he is a prestige actor like he was on mad Men, he was on La Law back in the day.

Like I think he's a very respected actor.

But he's also married to a real Housewives of Beverly Hills.

X now ex wife of Beverly Hills. But and he he is known as a heart throb.

He loves camping and he makes pasta sauces, he bakes pies.

He's a real domestic and you better say thank you for that sauce, you bitch.

Well, So he was on Watch What Happens Live and they played a game like can you defend your wife? And so they like brought like they kept bringing up things Lisa Renna has done, and he defended her hardcore, like he really has his girl's back.

But then one thing, Andy was like did you even see this?

He goes no, but I'm sure she was vindicated, Like he really has his wife's back. Yeah.

So and he seems like a good dad. I'm almost a little bit it's not like you can do anything. His daughters are grown women. But I'm like a little bit surprised that, like his daughters have had so much work done. They're so beautiful already, and they're like having all this work. It just feels like they all got the Lisa Renna part. None of them got the like crunchy camping Harry Hamlin's side.

Yeah, but like for him, how it's like with tattoos, Like how do you stop someone from doing something you do? Like Lisa Rena had fake lips before it was like certified medically.

She has like the imblant that like isn't FDA approved anymore.

Yeah, So to me, it's like, yeah, their daughters are gonna get buckle fat buckle fat removed. I say that I have no idea, but also, wuckle fat buckle fat, how does no one have scars? Like how does the surgery work? Like don't your cheeks need fat. Like, I just don't get how people were convinced that their cheeks are bad.

I don't even know what buckle fat removal is. Is it to give you a more chisel jaw? What is it the indent in the cheek?

Yeah, jaw? Or like what's what's that?

Is that a jaw?

Or is that a cheek in deck?

Like?

What is that called? Oh?

To have your cheeks like sucked in? You guys can't see us right now? Oh, you should release this as a video because it's really funny. Li's and I are just pushing in various Oh but it's pronounced buckle fat.

But even if I try to fake do a buckle, my cheeks are so puffy it doesn't even fake buckle.

It would look weird.

You know, you do a good job just with your cheek tint that makes your gives you definition on your face of your cheek stuff. That's why I always want to get it, because it gives you a little like I don't know, indent.

Yeah, but it's just a Nars tints and moist I mean yeah, no, no, no, the orgasm, it's just an orgasm stick.

It's not even like a full I know, I keep needing to get it. It's I already got.

The lot of people have asked us about Laura Mercier tinted moisturizer.

I already got that, but I need the well No, I use the North Sinton moisturizer. But Laura Mercier is very popular and people love it a lot, and that's that's what I got. Like the makeup woman A Shanta on Michelle's show is like, Laura Mercieres is better, and I'm like, why would I? This works for me? Yeah, I get complimented all the time. So yeah, I'm gonna stick to it.

Anyway, stay tuned for our buckle fat journey. I'm sure it's not happening for either of us.

Yeah, it's it's upsetting because also, like there were scenes during the Housewives where like his daughters refuse to eat, you know, the Scott dissick. I just think it might be tough to raise your children in Beverly Hills.

Yes, even though none of them live in Beverly Hills.

But yes, their house is cute though, because they have a breakfast book and I do really always love that. Yeah.

Anyways, So in Harry Hamlin's hands.

He has files, and he goes and he has exactly what they're looking for, and so they like let them search as a fuck you. His name is Chief pat and she asks if those are her rape kits and he says, well, technically they're my rape kits, but I

Rollins intros them to each other.

He says he's gonna get a rush on the test for them, but when they ask for a case file, he goes, there are no case files.

It's just preliminary reports.

None of these were pursuable at the time, but he's happy to hand them over since if he can clear three rapes on NYPD's dime.

He loves that.

Harry Hamlin leaves while saying tousuola like a white person, very very wrong. You know, I'm like the woman at the Hollywood Star ceremony. He couldn Finn Is like, eeke, So you made a lot of friends down here, and she responds that they're just making sure I know my place. So they head out to find the victims in Atlanta. The first one died last year, the second one moved to Alaska. So now we're walking up to the residence

Ashley answers the door.

She's confused why the NYPD are there because she has never been to New York. They mentioned it's the two thousand and eight crime, and then what do we have? Of course, an aggressive man in the back asking WhatsApp you know, like, what the fuck's going on? She lies sim and says it's Jehovah's witnesses. She doesn't want her husband to know. They explain the situation to her, go over the details, and once they mentioned the humming, she goes, oh god, I will never get that hymn out of my head.

She knows the song.

So the song is leaning, Leaning safe and secure from all alarms.

I've never heard that song. But I'm not a churchgoer.

But and she said she can't even go to church anymore because of the attack. She's confused. She told the cops everything in Rollins was like, yeah, I know, but we're gonna do right by you and we're gonna fix this. So they ask her to go over the file just to make sure everything's okay, and she said, actually one thing is left off of the file. His pager went off.

But I don't remember, why do you No?

I don't know why they're calling him the Pattern seventeen rapist. I think it's because Pattern seventeen has sixteen letters and it's an episode and at season sixteen, like it could.

Have easily been Patterned twelve.

I don't know.

Maybe that's how many victims I don't know. I don't know are like linked, but I don't know.

So all we know from like, so we don't have extra details about the guy. All we know from the DNA so far is that he is white and he did do all three rapes in Atlanta. So now we have to match, like figure out Vegas, Milwaukee, and New York City. The Milwaukee is a backlog that's like so long, and Vegas doesn't know if they tested the kids or not. He goes on spreeze and it seems like he's in the middle of one right now, so they really have

And so that's what I'm confused about.

Like they're mad that they're spending money on the investigation, but then they're also mad that it's not solved. So which one is it? Should we be investigating or salt? Like, I just hate it? So he asks any thoughts on the headline, and she goes, oh, yeah, I don't work for the media, you fucking piece of shit. But anyways, this is this panel, it's okay. So there's hundreds of men in uniform. I don't think there's one other woman here. And I feel like that was on purpose. That was

Like do none of these people ever do police work.

I just hate these scenes more than everything, Like, and I know we're supposed to get angry at them, but it just doesn't even make sense.

Yeah, like does she not have a track record of trusts?

I know?

Does she not have money in the bank? I don't understand it.

But also I think it's also a lot of times, like they talk about how SVU is different because like there are living victims and it's like more complicated, whereas like all these other guys that like some of the guys on this panel might have just been like draw like vice cops, like they just chase down drug dealers forever. Like I don't understand, get your informant to tell you who the drug dealer is, like be done with it.

You know, I don't know, no, because it feels like the vice cops are always like, this was a four year investigation. They're like always pissed.

And it's like, are you getting brought in front of CompStat for being embedded in a drug ring for four years and you have nothing yet? Like where are we? Where are we on your drug ring? Kowalski or whatever?

And then they say, well, Atlanta PD is who solved the crime for you, and it's like, bitch, are you We'd ask them to test the kids eyebrow DODS is like okay, and what about the other cities? So she starts to explain about the backlog and before he straight up interrupts and asks, well, what about the gaps in the timeline?

She goes, well, maybe incarceration.

Then a man who looks like he's one of the original guys on the board game Guess Who says, well, match the d and she's like, well, all other cops suck like you guys suck. So DNA collection is not always taken in crimes. And she again starts to talk about the backlog and unprocessed rape kits and Hank goes, oh, so it's everyone else's fault, but yours. She's like that's not what I'm saying. It's our problem now and we

Like, if you weren't standing here at this stupid comstat meeting, why aren't you out there trying to find this rapist?

It's like you made me be here, like and then yeah, Benson just looks sad, defeated, gas lit like just.

Like oh my god.

Yeah. So she leaves and we meet back up on the scene of the crime and presses everywhere. Benson asks for the scoop Creese and Finn and you know, everyone's in luxurious outerwear, but.

This situation not good.

She's twelve, that seems a little young, no, And Creasy's like, listen, Ryan Catalano, Ryan with two ends. Just if you're wondering was out walking her puppy at six am, which is so early you're twelve. Go to bed Manu so a man with gloves humming, choking all of it, but he didn't finish the rate because the dog did what dogs do, spooked him. So Finn explains that in which I enjoyed. Rollins is up there at the hospital waiting for the team and she's out, and so she explains, Ryan is

By the way, Also, Noah has health problems.

I mean it's like whenever it rains on Benson, it fully dumps.

She's like, uh, yes, but I'm gonna go to talk to your daughter, and you go with these guys and they'll take your statement. He said. He tells the guys that he always tells her, like wait for me to walk the dog, but the puppy sleeps with her and they just sometimes go to walk together. And they cut him off, like so she walked the dog by herself, and he goes, yeah, I heard the dog barking, and that's when I ran out, but you know, helly m Max, you know, bit him good and took off, So there's.

A bite, so that's kind of exciting.

And then a girl who looks so young, like she doesn't even look twelve, and I think this is very deliberate casting as well. So she has marks on her face. Her mother's in a cream sweater turtleneck listening closely behind her.

Can I say one thing? Yeah, this mother, this mother is my friend from college. Wow, this mother is my friend Julia Kelly from college. And so the girl is soaky. She said, what you're just like? So the band.

Do you want to tell me more about this woman?

Do you want to tell me how you came? She's she's my friend from college.

Great, and I had nothing to add to Then she says Max saved me, which is like so cute.

And they mentioned the gloves and the humming. Again I can I just I can't.

And so they start talking about the car and he did try to shove her in there, so she put her headphones in the car so she could prove that she was there. So this is a little badass. And she also knew it was blue and a white license plate. It's gonna end up being Connecticut, and she keeps trying to apologize and they're like, babe, you did great. Do you remember any part of the license plate. So it was a black sedan with partials gq JS, And so we're gonna start looking for this car. CSU has the

Finn and Rollins take out their guns.

They're ready then there and he's like, don't shoot, don't shoot, which reminds me, did you ever watch that s Leicester Sloane movie Stop or my mom will Shoot? Yeah?

I think I saw it a long time ago with a stell Getty.

I remember liking it as a kid, but I think he sees it as one of the most embarrassing moments of his career. So I wonder if we should watch it. I want to relive it. But I do remember watching it very vividly. So they're like, it seems like you have a lot of oxy in the car, and he's like, well, I've an office out of my house that does not seem legit, and then cares and then Caresy has pink headphones in his hand and.

He's like like this.

So the doctor goes, I don't know whose headphones they are, but headphones aren't illegal.

They arrest him, so Joseph Conklin.

You're done rape, okay, baby, Then he says those women agreed to do what they did. They just wanted the pills, so he did not use his right to remain silent. I thought that was funny, okay, but I thought you were gonna laugh. I took a pause. Okay, So Benson and dous for laughter did not happen. That always sucks on stage two, where you're like, oh, I'm truly pausing, but I guess I'll keep chugging away. Benson and Dodds

He's just like, okay, here's the deal.

It's so crazy, and they don't promise that it's not even in ready. All Finn says is yeah, I'll talk to the DA like that he could be talking to him about the weather, like.

There was no detail. Maybe we'll see.

So he says women line up to have sex with him for handfuls of oxy coda, five pills a blow and a dozen for full service. Creasey's like, so you're admitting to solicitation and pill pushing and he's like, no, they're legal prescriptions. These women are in pain, and they're like yeah, but if they have to perform sex sex to get them and the lawyer goes, Okay, we've said enough, and it's like, you shouldn't have said anything.

He just said it all. Benson's on the phone.

She needs to go to the Noah hearing tomorrow, and you know that's gonna be really hard for it.

She wants to change it, but she can't.

She has to be there tomorrow at like eight thirty in the morning or something, or that's later. Honestly, there's so no that's so different here. There's like eight Noah hearings. In this episode, Robins knocks to talk to Benson and Benson's like, not right now, and Rollins seems stunned. But it's also like, she's on the phone, you know, use

The valet guy goes, no, they're the good guys.

Another amazing point moment in SVU in this episode, like the good guy's rape. Why is that confusing to anybody?

So and he goes, yeah, they wouldn't take anything.

So Finn goes, but you all these guys in right, and he goes, let's see the book. So now we're at family court, Benson, Lucy and nowhere are sitting. And now hear me out. I have a theory. What if Benson and Lucy are secret lesbian lovers. Maybe don't you think that explains her availability and interest in helping and why she's at court?

Like why is Lucy at court? I don't know, that's a great question. Benson's paying her I don't know, I don't know. That's weird. That's I mean, I'm sure there's I wonder if there's fanfic about that.

I'm just curious. Let me know what you guys think.

Bence Bencey fanfiction, Benson Lucy fanfiction.

It's just like they're at court together. I just in that moment it clicked and I'm like, they're dating. They're dating.

I mean, she's around a lot for someone who's just a girlfriend for the baby. Yeah, if you left your baby with your girlfriend that much, I'd be like, what is this relationship?

Am I your nanny or your girlfriend? You're right, you're right.

So whatever, we've had so the woman on the stand at this court here, and we've seen this bitch before. Okay, she's been in five episodes. Her name is Chantel Jackson, and she has it in for Benson. She's been in two episodes. We've already covered Holden's manifesto and downloaded child. And they're always having issues because Benson didn't get to the hospital fast.

Enough yeah, or like didn't pick up her phone on the first ring or something insane.

So you know, the judge is there and then this bitch in the pink blazer is like, you know, she claimed a work emergency and lived to Lucy is like claimed, and Lucy's like relax, okay.

So the lady just.

Feels that like Benson should have been there since Noah was in crisis. And the judges of Queen Jush Ruth Linden is presiding and she's the one that brought up that Benson should take Noah. So Trevor gets up to ask some questions and she and he's like, so you've been managing this case for a long time, right, have you seen any shady house visits anything? She goes no, And He's like, I Noah's taken care of better than he was in any of the other homes. Correct, And

He was an EMT in all the other cities.

Benson finds it strange that for four years he had no incident though, and then started raping, and Browse is like, well, you can find it out when he's here, because we all want to know this. And all the men are waiting to meet you tomorrow morning for another meeting. So she smiles a pissed smile, like, give me a break, you losers. So now we're at the home of Lauren and beth Burns and Queen's and she's of peace of work, as they say, she's smoking, and she hates this bastard.

And she's like nothing.

They came on their own, and she's like, you know, they're asking about Albert big shocker, and the teen right away goes, he didn't do anything wrong, and Crisey's like, nobody said he did, but clearly something's going on here. The teen says to the mom, it's your fault. He moved out. He hates you. And I hate you too. The mom's feelings are hurt. Finn's like, what's up, what's going on here? And the mom's like, well, she's younger and dumber. I guess he traded up or down. She's

I guess weird.

Well, Actually, the Green River killer who killed like over one hundred sex workers in I think Washington State, they said his moments of pausing were when he was married and his wife actually is the reason saved a lot of lives. They said, like him being married to his wife saved a lot of lives because whenever he was with his wife, he wasn't killing.

Yeah.

What confuses me about this is we always say, like sex crimes are about power, not sex, So are they like do they exert power in their homes or like what is you know that means it's it's more about sex.

No, well, no, I think, yeah, I agree with you, But I think that like for some of them, it's like this like proclivity. It's like a thing that they they can if they like focus on it, they cannot do it, like I don't want to. I don't even know what I'm trying to say.

I yeah, or maybe like they have like they feel powerful when they have consistent a partner or taking care, and then they feel powerless when they're dumped.

I don't know, yeah, or I mean in some cases they're probably taking out, yeah, some of the power scenarios on their partner.

But like with the Green River killer, I feel like he.

Had this like like you know, horrible proclivity that he just wanted to murder, and then when he was like playing the role of a husband, he was able to like push it down and then it would come back out again.

I don't know. Great question for the psychiatrists, psychologists, Listener.

And Green River's in the Pacific Northwest, Raight, I feel like people were really talking about him while we were just there. We haven't covered him, right.

No, No, I don't think anyone on the show has ever killed? Like, I think he's the most prolific serial killer? Wait really yeah, because they don't know. But I think they think he's killed like one hundred sex workers because he was active for like decades, I think. But you know, it's like some of the bodies were never found and some people are attributed to it. So I don't I don't know. It's hard to say. I think who's the most prolific. But I read once that he was all right,

So they're kind of discussing, and Finn is like, the daughter knew right away something was going down, and she sent him warning texts before we took all their cell phones, so we might know something. But Judge Linda is texting Benson right now, how's eight thirty tomorrow morning? Benson goes fine and then spells thanks THHX. And I don't feel like Benson would do that, do you.

She's a woman on the go.

I write THHX sometimes I'd like to see it. Caresee doesn't like her texting, and he's like, are you with us? That's your boss? Yeah? Now, Caresee's got an attitude. So Benson's like, yes, okay, what do you think like statutory rape? Like I'm listening, I'm better than all of you, and he's and then someone's like the teen's on a tight leash, and she's like she's a teen, Like she like she's

Let's see what we can do. Let's go push some buttons.

So Carisiu and Fino in there and he says, I'm not saying anything, and Finn goes, you don't have to you're going down, baby, We got you on an attempted rape of a twelve year old girl and child porn.

Ye done.

So.

Then Baldy speaks and is like, she set me those and they're like, we thought you weren't talking. Finn goes and don't worry about a baby, claps his hands in front of him, like in a way that's asmar for me, Like I watched that ten times. I loved the way he clapped his hands in front of his body and says, you're done and you don't even know it, and then leaves. He's left with Careesy alone. He asks, okay, so, oh

He gets nervous.

Creasy continues, you kept up that hero emt profile for a long time and then everybody fooled. But in prison, all anybody is going to know is that you're a pedophile.

He does not like the sound of this.

He says, he is not a pedophile, and he is sex with women, and it is also rare to have so many different age ranges of attack, like yeah, that's like not a car.

Why did you go for this little girl who looks even younger than twelve?

Like it's yeah.

So Creasy's like yeah right, and he keeps going and I love this angle. Whoever wrote this episode, fuck yeah, congratulations, Like I love what is happening here, and he goes, listen, we know that you committed rapes all across this country for years, evading police. But they're not going to test the DNA, so no, but he's gonna know about it, only you and I. That's where it is. And he gets up and he says, you're rap sheet in prison. That's your reputation. So he thinks you know and goes, wait,

What do you mean it's that you're gonna be pissed she caught him. Yeah.

So we cut to her thanking the judge for meetings so early, and she's like, well, I appreciate you making the time, sergeant, and they're gonna have, you know, have some chats. She wanted to talk before the ruling, just to make sure, and basically she says, listen. The judge tells Benson, if you're in a situation you can't handle, that's fine. Like you thought you could handle it, you can't. There's no shame, no biggie, I will not judge you, and she goes, I like you a lot, but my

And they wouldn't have caught him if they didn't have a fucking random detective from Atlanta on the squad, Like they wouldn't have Yeah, you know, Albert Beck is a career rapist who's moved from state to state year after year.

But because of many cities have underfunded departments, and many cities do not regard crimes against women. Seriously, they never tested thousands of their rape kits. What's the point of having a national DNA database if the rapist DNA is never entered into it? Dramatic music As we slide on over to Rollins, she's on the phone at the office

The episode, this is obviously a Marishka Hargate like episode where she probably pushed it through because the national backlog of rape kits is a huge passion project for her and the Joyful Heart Foundation, which is her foundation. So I'm sure, like you know, she was like, we need

There's two distinct problems.

One is that rape kits are collected and booked into evidence, but then detectives and prosecutors never send it, never asked for DNA analysis. And another is that rape kits are collected and then send to a crime lab for testing, but then they just stay in line in like an endless line, and they await DNA analysis for months, even years, and in some cases indefinitely.

So I don't know if.

Labs like lose it or file it away on a shelf for do this on a day where we don't have any work. I don't know, but these are the two problems, and these untested or unsubmitted kits are considered anything that's not sent off or booked into evidence after thirty days. So the website we're going to actually talk about it in sister peg. But the website has like a map of what states. I know Murrishka has been posting they just cleared backlogs in a couple of states,

It's like it's all such gas ladies shit too, because it's like you like people always say go to the cops, like go to the cops, and then it's like cops are actively not caring, and it's like people won't just submit, cops don't care. Yeah, they're yeah, they are not testing or prioritizing rape kits at all, and it's still seen as like this haven of justice while they actively are doing everything they can to not do it. It's like it's so fucking twisted. It really, I mean, it bothers.

All of us. I'm sure listening.

Yes, And rape kits are very like invasive. I mean it's like you've just gone through a trauma and then you have to go to a doctor and be poked and prodded and photographed and all this stuff. So it's like a veryvasive, invasive process.

To go through. Have you heard about this girl.

This this young twenty three year old, twenty four year old girl. They just did a big article about her, someone The Cut or somebody about she's trying to do at home rape kits and she raised all this money for it. She raised like millions of dollars in like venture capitalists like funding. But like it's a crazy idea, Like because the chain of custody, none of it would ever be admitted. So it's like and no one has bought one, and the girl's like the idea is going to work, and everyone's like.

It's giving the dropout.

Like it's really weird, this girl that's trying to do these at home. It's also like I'm just saying, I see where the girl's idea came from. Because going to get a rape kit is definitely difficult and a traumatic experience, and then to not have it tested, not have it sent to the right place, it's just such a failure

So yeah, the fact that the Lands how they had three similar mos and they still thought every one of those women were lying because they weren't virgins.

It's like it's just upsetting.

But I do feel like Marishka Hargete, like specifically and the Joyful Heart Foundation have like done a lot.

She made a documentary about it.

That got a lot of press, Like she's done a lot to work on the ending the backlog and just hearing that certain states are clearing their backlogs is like hope is like gives me some hope that hopeful that we can you know, pass legislation or get this moving in the future.

It's like, I don't know what you have to do if you're a victim.

You have to just keep calling the cops and say, did you guys submit my rape kit?

Yet?

What did you guy? Did you guys do it yet? Like I don't understand what you're supposed to do.

But no, because then because then you're hysterical, and then they're gonna be like, oh, she's just a looney tune or something like. Right, there's no winning.

There's really no reaction. Is no reaction is the right reaction?

Okay, so I'm going to move on to the crime that this was loosely based on, which are the crimes of Charles William Davis Junior. And it's very wild because there is like no information on this case. I could only find one photo of this man and his head is down.

You can't even see his face.

I did not join a free trial for newspapers dot Com because I didn't want to get Wichita Eagle like Lisa. But like almost every single article I found for this was a scan of.

A newspaper article.

And these these crimes only happened in the seventies, Like there's there's usually more information, and it was just really difficult to find out info about this guy.

But I'll get into it now. Charles William Davis Junior.

He grew up the son of a police lieutenant in Baltimore, Maryland. This is where he was born in the late forties. From his twenties on, he had a bunch of different jobs, including electrician and security guard, and he was also a member of the Baltimore Volunteer Rescue Squad. So that's where they get this ambulance driver hero idea that they did in the episode, which is there is something much scarier when a guy's just a psycho, or when a guy's a pretend hero. Who's a psycho, you know, a psycho

Oh no, they have to that's their cover, I know.

But it happens to work in the church and coach little League and you know, be Yeah.

It's how they get their I know. It's just so so scary. So in the early seventies, this guy Davis is in his early twenties and he took he took courses to become a lab tech.

At one point. He's married.

He has a son, after his divorce, he moves in with a single mom named Bonnie Kellner, whom he met while volunteering. Like people think that through his like volunteer quote unquote hero job, he made connections with local law enforcement and was able to kind of like study their.

Methods and evade capture.

Sure, but also later he's profiled as like a police buff because his dad's a police officer too, so he's like he kind of knows the ins and outs of probably basic forensics, how to commit.

Crimes and get away with it.

So in late nineteen seventy four, Davis witnessed a traffic accident.

This is his first attack.

He offers to help this twenty three year old woman in the accident, and by help her, I mean he drags her to a close wooded area, sexually assaults her and almost strangles her to death. And I say almost only because she went unconscious and he thought she was dead, and so he left. But she came to and she made her way to medical attention, and she reported the incident to the police. They worked up a sketch of the attacker. But you know nothing in nineteen seventy five,

They make out. He asks her to have sex.

She turns him down, so obviously, he strangles her to death, drags her body out of the car, and then dumps her on the ground. But she was found fully closed, so I don't think he ever actually went through a sexual assault for this case, but just being turned down by a woman angered him to murder the point of murder she did have. She was also found with a license like a fake idea that said she was eighteen, so I guess that's why she was in bars, but she was sixteen.

She was a high school student.

So a few months later, Davis loses custody of his son, so he decides to assault a female social work.

I don't know if they were like tying this in with.

Like Benson and the custody stuff, but he decides to assault a female social worker who he believed was the reason behind him losing custody. So on New Year's Eve, he lures her from a nightclub and everything I keep reading says he lures her. He lures her, And I'm like, how does he lure her out of out the parking lot?

And here's how he does it.

He gets her license plate number of this of the woman, and he calls the club and says, can you ask this woman to come this person to come out and move their car. They're blocking me in so over the PA system at the club they go, uh, license plate four three seven, one h whatever, Come on out, you're blocking someone. He gets her out there, he gets her into his car. He realizes it's the wrong fucking woman. It's not the woman that he is related to his case.

So again, I.

Can't verify this.

I'm reading this in places that don't have sources, like murder Pedia, and every article about this man is like a scam from a newspaper.

So I don't know if that's true.

But that's what a lot of like Reddit and like a lot of places are like, you wouldn't believe this serial killer. He killed women and then called the ambulance and he was the ambulance driver, blah blah blah, which we all know they just did an ambulance episode of SVU, but that was not a real ambulance driver. So a week later, September third, So now it's like he's getting closer and closer. These last two crimes are nine months apart, and now it's a week after he kills someone. He

Well, because it's such a cute car. It's like a trick, a little disguise.

You think. It just looks like, come on to my Beetle.

It's a non threatening vehicle versus a van like a truck. Yeah, a van a Mercury, a four Taurists, creepy car. Yeah, freedom, We used to have a four Tourists.

We used to have a four Taurus station wagon, not the cop kind, the station wagon y a creepy car. And we had a van. My dad used to pick me up in a Dodge Ram van.

Yeah, but a volt black and bug you know.

Yeah, Yeah, would have much preferred my dad to pick me up in a bug.

Okay.

So he admitted to the cops to stealing the license plates, to swapping them, but he refused to say why.

Then in a.

Search of his car, they discover a Seebee radio under one of the seats, and they determined that it's been stolen, and so they arrest him for theft and they take him to County Lockup. Then in County Lockup, he claims his innocence and he somehow produces a receipt from the store in Baltimore where he bought the Cebee radio, so the charges dropped and he is released. But then when the cops did a little bit of police work, they realized it had been purchased with a credit card belonging

So I don't know.

This guy is ballsy that he got this receipt even though it was like with a stolen credit card, because at.

That Butody, we knew it would work. He knew cops radiots.

Yeah, yeah, men will trust any random man over dozens of women with victims, you know what I mean?

So true.

So then this all goes down in July and it's not for a month five weeks later or so, at the end of August that they find him working as an ambulance dispatch helper in Reno, Nevada, and he has arrested my.

Local police there.

He gets extradited back to Baltimore to await trial. On his way back to Maryland, he apparently told the escorting officers that he wanted to confess to the murder of Peggy pumpy In, and at the police station he confessed to both the murders.

Of pumpy In and Cook on videotape.

After his arrest, a bunch of high ranking cops got together to talk about strategy for prosecuting him. And this is not the same, but it reminds me of like how they're like, oh, we're just going to send you to jails as a pedophile instead of a serial rapist, so that, I don't know, it reminds me of it.

I don't think it's like fully based.

But they decide to try him separately in different venues for the true trial the two cases, even though they're in the same they're both in Maryland because they're worried he might not get a fair trial for one of them because of publicity, and they don't really want anything to fuck anything up. But it's like, it's just really crazy how you can't fucking find anything about these murders and they're worried about the publicity. I'm like, I can't

So it's classic in cel shit, you know.

And so I guess maybe with like what you were talking about before, It's like maybe if his relationship is going well, he doesn't have all this anger, and then when his relationship's not going well, he goes out and takes it out on these people. It's like I say, I mean Ted Bundy had a full girlfriend the entire time and never hurt her in any way, Like I.

Do a stand up joke about it.

So it's like, I don't know what goes on with these guys when they take breaks, or when they're in a happy relationship or what's going on. But this man, Charles William Davis Junior, is still alive and incarcerated in Maryland. He is in prison in the Baltimore area and he will be there forever.

And that's that.

I don't know. I've never heard of this guy.

And it's interesting that he was profiled by the scot by this guy and it was just so hard to find information. But if you have any more information, do let me know. But that's what I have for now.

Fuck the police, and yeah, we have an interview, a great interview.

We have a great interview.

Yeah, don't go anywhere, you guys, our guest today. He's been on our list since the beginning. We have wanted to get him since the beginning. He is in the character actor hall of Fame. You guys know him. He's been on Ray Donovan, Missus, Fletcher, the Dropout. He's also been in movies like Funny Pages and Joker, and famously, you may not even know this, he played Raphael in the Suit in the original Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles movie, and today know him as one of the most annoying

Check it out, you guys, we've been wanting you on our show for a very long time. Yeah, thank you so much. A big get for us.

Oh good good, Oh yeah. I know it's taken a while to make this happen, but this.

Is the moment, worth the way, worth the way.

Well, we'll see, we'll see. Let's see.

Well, I mean, so we did do the episode Collateral Damages Samantha Corbin, the writer, was our guest for that one where it comes out Hank Abraham sorry to jump right in, but no get in is a pedophile. Did you know going into the role of Hank Abraham he was gonna be a pedophile?

Did they spring it on you? How did they read no idea, no idea? I don't think they knew either, honestly. And that whole character started out as you know, what I thought was just going to be one episode where he was like a pr agent for somebody running for

Was it shocking to you or were you like, yeah, this is this is Hank.

Yeah, it was shocking. It was totally shocking. Like looking back in retrospect, you could see, oh I could yeah that doesn't you know that kind of makes sense on some level, or you know, it could it could make sense.

I didn't act on it, or I didn't act.

On I didn't, And which is like a really valid interesting thing to explore, you know, because if somebody is seeking out that content, there's somebody's you know, that increases the demand for people to make it, and so you know, on that level, it was a good thing to explore.

Yeah, it was a great performance and like he tries to take his own life and stuff.

It was a wild episode.

Yeah.

So do you live in New York?

Yeah? I grew up in New York.

Yeah. Are you raised? Are people reacting to you on the streets? Have you ever had experience yesterday?

Wait? Really yesterday?

Yes? Yeah, I mean oddly enough about I'm assuming it was this. I mean, I've played a bunch of guys that are not the most ethical. Yeah, And this woman came up and said you. She was very nice, but she was like, you're too good. You're you're You've played too many You've played people that are it's too convincing what you're doing. It was a compliment, you know, she was being very playful. But I assume it was you know, I assume it was Hank Abraham.

Yeah, when you.

Came back, because you were there at the very beginning. You're in season one, right, your.

S I was also in I don't know if your show covers this, but I was also in season one of the Mothership.

Wow.

We I knew you were in the Mothership, and I do, and I was going to ask you questions about the other franchises, but yeah.

But we don't I don't.

I didn't know that because I only dabble a little in regular law in order SV you're specialists, spize, we specialize, We're not like, yeah, we're not general practitioners. Did did you so, like, because you have this like unique perspective of like you were there at the very, very beginning. So everybody always talks about, oh, it's a well oiled machine, the sets really like run. But you were there at the beginning when they were probably still finding their footing,

I mean, I think in the beginning it was run by like high optane testosterone. Like it was like it was just like this sense of drive that people had and and and it was just it was an intense you know, prior to that, I'd done just mostly theater and starting to do some other TV and film. But you know a lot of theater where there's you know, a rehearsal and blah blah blah, and this was like it felt like they were yelling at me, you know, not it wasn't personal, but it's like.

Okay, this is Josh. Okay, you're gonna come in here, you're gonna walk out there, then you're gonna cut back there when he says that you're gonna do this. It was I don't know quind how I made it through, but it was like my nervous system was like and.

So it was. But it was just like a lot of passion and you know, and then they started bringing that character back. I was I was Borak, the medical examiner, and and I don't know, I think it did maybe maybe around twenty episodes. Yeah, and it was just like one or two scenes, and I just I think maybe what they liked is I was playing whenever I would

Yeah, did you have to memorize wild words? Do you remember any of your medical No?

No, but it was that was that was intense and one uh nightmare, this is one of my actor nightmares. Was and it was real. I was doing a play and they called and they said, we have another episode for you. Can you come in? You know, it was like two days later and and the play was going up and you know, three days and so it was

I forget when Benjamin Bratt came on, because you did Law and Order seasons like three, four, five, six, seventy eight, ten, twelve, thirteen of the mother Ship. So yeah, there would have been Benjamin Bratt definitely would have been on there.

It was definitely more back. Oh my god. But so we were, you know, and I was like in that break, I was and it was talking about a corpse and what happened, what happened to the body? Like it was impossible. It was I was just how, you know, just trying to digest this and it was the last shot of the day, and the crew you know, was like, we want to go home, you know, and and I just was like flubbing the lines. It was an or back was like we did it so many times. He knew

Yeah, this episode was cool to film.

There were so many of you in that it was like a round table of all these officers and she was just right in the middle.

Yeah, it was that took that was a long That took a long time, a very long time to film. Oh really, and uh yeah, and I think for whatever like, I think that the content that Marishka was talking about in that episode in particular was very It meant a tremendous amount.

To her, oh right, because of the rape kit backlog.

And the yeah, like it was I think just because it was it meant so much to her. It was like it was challenging in a different way for her, which it came out beautifully, but it was an intense folk like we could all of a sudden feel like this is this is rich, this is close to home in terms of you know, what the content meant to her means to her. So it was it was a it was a very dynamic, focused day.

Yeah, I'm probably getting the coverage of all those guys.

And you're with Peter Gallagher in that scene too. Did you like working with him?

He's he's a great He was like a great soil for her because he was so awful to her, but then.

You grow to like him, right right, Another one of those unlike can't Gabraham you kind of took a I was like waiting for that with your character all actually really yeah, I was like, they're gonna give him some episode where like he has a personal problem and Marishka helps him and he turns like good.

But they really took a hard left on that.

Yeah.

Yeah, well because you guys there is a buddy buddy moment between you guys. Sorry if it's too specific. It was the episode with Alec Baldwin. Okay, remember we did that one and you're like, oh, there he's writing an article.

You're amazing, and yeah they did tease yeah littleliness for a bit.

Yeah. I don't know if you remember in that episode that I did prior to that one, I did the prior episode. Then I went I was in I was also recurring on Ray Donovan. And on Ray Donovan, they they always colored my hair, you know, to like this producer you know that colors this hair, you know. And and then I think I shot that episode with Alec Baldwin, like in between an episode of Ray Donovan. I flew

Did you ever live in la or were you always?

I had a house in l A for a while, got out just in time, but uh, just spent stretches of time out there. But I've I would never, you know, I grew up in Alphabet City, and you know, I could never you know, I live partially in Sad Harbor, but always I just couldn't imagine not having an apartment in New York. It feels too unsettling.

And were you always theater acting since you were fall is?

Yeah? I mean in our home in these village, maybe every other weekend, like on a Saturday night, we would have like a show and people would come. There'd be like maybe thirty people, thirty to forty people like crammed in the living room and I was like nine ten and I was kind of doing you know, characters or whatever, and then other people would get up and do stuff, and there was there was this one cab driver named

Yeah, it's so cool.

So it was very I grew up, you know, it was just a very bohemian creative environment. I wasn't doing it thinking I want to be an actor, but it was just a natural inclination, you know, to move that way. I was interested in animal behavior as well. My dad was able to hook me up kind of assisting a lot of animal behaviorists at like Brookava National Laboratory and at Rockefeller University. And I really enjoyed that, but I

Very true with the Ninja Turtles.

Was that like that was that was like at the very beginning of your career, right, Yeah, so you were just so everybody knows because when I told my husband I was interviewing you, he was like Raphael, Like he was excited that you were the voice of Raphael.

You're not in the suit, right or are you? I am in the You're in the suit.

I'm the only one that was in the suit and did and and did the voice. Wow, everybody else was either in the suit or did the voice. I was the only one that did both.

And why was that?

It was because you know, I developed this physicality, you know, like I had this where I grew up like a lot of people would walk around trying to be bigger

Yeah, my husband says, you have the best line in the movie because you go splinter, damn it. And he said that, like, he goes, it's the only curse in the movie. I go, you know a lot, he goes.

This movie was very.

Important to people my age, Yeah, because he was like ten when it came out, and he was like, I think it. He watched it a million times, Like I've seen it. I said, I've seen that movie at least a handful of times. I'm looking at pictures of you right now in the suit.

Was it hot?

Uh?

It was insane. I mean it weighed seventy pounds, oh my god. From morning to lunch break. We would all lose five pounds, oh my every day and then you know, and then so probably would lose between for a full day if it was active, like five to eight pounds. But we would just like eat, you know, like insane eat.

Went out at lunch.

Yeah, and they you know, they had to shoot compressed air in our faces because it just felt like your blood was boiling and they had to you know, you're suited up, you know, from the head down, and then the last part is they put the head on and they glue it and so you'res I mean, I never considered myself a claustrophobic person, but like all of a sudden, you're sealed in. Not breathing is not you know, when

I was going to say, the Mandalorian probably has like a little fan in there or something, you know, nowadays, I'm sure it.

Yeah, wow, pre cgi, I was gonna say, you've worked so much, are there just any particular like sets or experiences or people that you hold near and dear like that you look back on fondly that you'd like to share with us.

But that is a broad question. There was just so many credits.

I mean it's really like I really haven't had bad experiences, honestly, and like each one is like, you know, it's like a like a kid, you know, in a way, like you don't want to pick one of it. Like they're all just me attempting to be as present and engaged

What's it about.

It's based on a Tom Wolfe novel and he plays a guy who has a lot of power and has done things that are a little bit questionable. And it's like about his starting to fall apart, and he's trying to maintain like this masculine thing and I'm like a counterpart of him, of somebody that actually is truly successful and not hasn't played as many games. And it's how he's trying to get me to save him and pull him out. But he does it in the most you know, screwed up way and there analyzes the comedy.

Oh, it's a comedy.

It's a dark comedy. It's a dark comedy. I mean, I actually I view everything as a comedy, everything that I do, even Law and Order. That's just my lens. Even if it's the most serious thing. It's like I try to I can't help but find the comedy of it.

Well, we always say old sview, not so much to the newers, but the Neil Barriers. We like to say, we're really funny. Like the Stable Years, there was like lightness to it that we really appreciate. Yeah, this was amazing.

Any like little favorite moments from the set or anything that you want to say that our listeners might like before we say goodbye, or you know, I think.

I've given you everything. Yeah, I'm sure. Once I'm done, I'll think of ten ten more things, you know, just at starting with the very first Law and Order when I was starting out, like that was the only show in New York City other than the soap opera, and so it really was for you know, an actor starting out, it was really a life save her to be able to have a TV show in New York that I

Yeah, amazing, Thank you so much.

You're so welcome.

That was that was That was very fun. You know, I love a New York guy.

I'm telling you. My husband was like psyched. He was like, you're talking to Raphael. Oh, I've been bringing it up in convo. I'm like everywhere I can.

Oh.

And also, Jared's gotten Rosie fully into Teenage Mutan Ninja Turtle. She watches it now and he sings the old song you know that, like that's like teenage Mutan Ninja Turtles, and Rosie sits next to him and bangs out the beat to what he's singing on a tambourine. And then at the end when it goes Heroes in a housell Turtle Power, she tries to like go no, no, no no,

But obviously with this one so much postmortem, it like we learn so much. It's trust no one.

You never know.

Even people on the inside that are supposed to be like protecting and serving are committing crime.

I think you're all horse. You're all horse, and you all deserve anything that goes wrong in your life. So you're yeah, close your legs to married men, you dumb sluts, and we will not test your rape kits.

That's what we learned.

We have a long way to go for equality while constantly being gas lit that everything's okay and you should go.

To the police when something bad happens too.

So thank you to mrscal Hargatea for being a hero and starting the Joyful Heart Foundation. Yeah, but yeah, this one's ah, this one's infuriating. But also leave evidence behind, honey.

Yeah, that little girl, she was like a classic, like the girl who learned how to like she rubbed slime on her attacker or something like glitter slime on her attacker because she like learned it on SVU.

And I was like love that, Like, well, yeah, because we meet mother daughter duos or grandma's even at our live shows, and they're always like, oh, I showed her SVU too young, And I'm like, is it too young?

Is it ever too young?

Is it ever too young?

I mean this also this leads into another episode, but you know, obviously Rollins is having some issues with her boys club boss situation in this episode from Atlanta, and I don't know. That just got me thinking about like how shitty it is to be like a woman working in like like a male dominated airfield.

Yeah, you're eating at a restaurant being told how to tip, like I It's like everywhere and constantly it's just like, oh my god. There was a moment where people were getting out of a cab, so I stood next to it so I can get in and the girl is paying on her thing and the guy is like holding leftovers, and he goes, oh, yeah, she's just paying and she'll be out soon then you can go in. And I went, I know how a cab works, and he goes, wait,

I should have told that girl break up with this guy.

You're paying for this and he doesn't believe that you know how to cabs work, Like your girlfriend's paying for this, you can't even afford to pay for this cab? Like what are you? How are you telling me how it works? Obviously what Amanda Rollins went through in Atlanta is much worse.

Which we don't know yet technically from this episode, but you can tell that, like, I don't know, I don't. I hated the way, like even that guy was like, oh, you're like the guy that was down there, and they were just like fucking with her, not testing the kids and then testing them and pulling the files and making her search Like I don't know.

This kind of playing games with true victims. Yeah, but all had similar moms. It's just like the lazy It's so, you know, because this show is such cop Ganda, and that's what people say, but it's like, no, these episodes that they do are so important and so telling about because Dick Wolf loves police. So the fact that we're able to do this, like they are able to do these kinds of a right where the cops are yeah, says a lot.

Yeah, I mean listen, I also think we all have to I mean, I don't know, not we like you, but like as a society, yeah, we have to stop like doing the Madonna and the whore like sectioning off of women, like everybody contains multitudes. We have to be sex positive like, and all victims deserve justice. Like so it's uh, just another reminder.

Also, if you're a teen, can you please yeah, do not try to fuck your mom's boyfriend.

No, he's the predator.

But it's like, girl, if someone is dating your mom, they're not good if they want to date you too. Yeah, and why the fact that she tried to also help him run. I hope they do charge her with something. She goes to juice.

They won't. Nah, she was a victim. But let's jump into the baby. I do like the way he said that, though. Let's get into our what would Sister peg new segment WWSPD Baby. This is our weekly segment where we point you to an organization, a blog post, an article, a podcast, something to help you just like learn about what we talked about today. And obviously I'm going to send you guys to endThe backlog dot Org, which is I believe a subset of Joyful Heart. I believe it's like part

So for more info about that, go to end backlog dot Org.

Next week we'll be doing Poison Motive, which is season fourteen, episode twenty two. Watch along, don't watch along, Just make sure you tune in next week.

Thank you so much for all your support.

Bye guys, That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com.

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As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information. Thank you so much to our producer Kac O'Brien, and to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cootner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly gen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer and everybody at Exactly Right Media

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