Nocturne w/ Wilson Jermaine Heredia

Of the Law and Order franchises. SVU is considered especially watchable. We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

These are our stories done done.

Yay, that's messed up an SVU podcast. I'm Liza Traeger.

And I'm Kara Klank and every week on this podcast it's sv episodes, true crimes and guests. But first we just like to chit chat for a little bit, catch up, and eventually get to a place where we talk about how sad the world is.

But I don't try not to. We try not to. Yeah it was hard.

Yeah, okay, Wait, So one thing I was going to tell you about was we've been talking about AI obviously a lot on this podcast. So today we're like, I'm driving my kids to camp and we see this car and it's not a WAYM, but it's a car that has like big cameras and shit on top of it, like a way Mo, but there's a guy driving it.

So I'm like explaining Waymos to my kids.

I'm like, okay, so it's like a it's a car that drives itself and it has all these cameras you can't so that it knows if someone's gonna hate you blah blah blah.

And then they're like.

Well, I would not want to go on a waymo of an airplane and I was like, yes, no, I hope we are nowhere near WEIMO airplanes.

I really do.

And I was just like explaining, it's like a robot that can do this and that, and then somehow I get into telling them about AI and what it is. I'm basically like, it's robots that learn how to do things that humans can do. So it's really important that you guys get jobs that are creative and rely on your brains and things that only humans can do.

And they were like, uh, we lost they lost the thread.

But because that's not it, people are saying people should do trades because no one cares about creativity. They just want shows that you could scroll your phone while you watch.

You're right, I'm fucking them up. I was just telling them.

I was like, you got to do something where you can be with people, and that it has to be in person. And like Rosie was like, well, a robot can't be a park ranger, but I was like I can't. But we're getting rid of the park in this administration, but not when she's older, you know. So she's like, now she wants to be a park ranger. And I was telling her she'd be a great park ranger.

Yeah.

Yeah, So she wants to be a pet park ranger because she just she wants to get a lot of pets. But her little Bessie from preschool, who you've heard of, who moved to New Jersey last year, came this weekend for.

A surprise visit, and I took a.

Video and stuff of them, of them seeing each other for the first time. It was crazy.

I thought they were going to scream. Like I thought they were going to scream. They were both like stun silent, like they Rosie like could not comprehend it. She was like standing in the doorway like, and then she just like slowly.

Went and gave her a hug.

And then when they came in the house and I was like, Rosie, are you surprised, she was like yeah, And I was like, yeah, Isabelle's going to sleep here tonight.

She that's when she flipped her fucking lid. Like they both started screaming and like jumping up and down.

It was so cute.

They're like such little like I'm glad they gold made. Wait, but you knew obviously that they were coming.

I knew, Yeah, I knew, I knew, but it was like it was only planned a couple of days in advance that the dad just had some meetings out here, so he was coming out and uh like that's yeah cut.

Well, yeah, of course, because that friend is the one who inherited my stuffed rainbow poop emoji unicorns stuffed animal. Yes, I hope it made it to New Jersey. It sure did it. Sure did that baby travel across country.

Yeah.

So and now they're at camp today together they're having like a cute little reunion. What camp is rosy? And now, oh, I'll do a little shout out for this camp. If you live in the Los Angeles area, they're doing this camp called Hawks.

It's awesome.

It's all over the LA area, so there are different like locations and they go to different parks every day.

They hike.

They like are in nature. They're outside all day. It's basically hike based. They own hikes. They stop, they play games, they stop and have little luncheon brakes and stuff, and they love it.

They're both doing it.

Hawk's la everybody that's a free shout out my niece. So where she's staying in Mexico, there's all these hummingbirds and she's setting up feeders for them and buying special like nectary, you know, special juices for them. On the ceiling outside it's there's stained glass and it looks like red flowers. So these hummingbirds get up there, but then they don't have the energy to sustain themselves. And when hummingbirds don't have energy, they like go into this like coma.

And she's been reviving hummingbirds.

I have photos of her with like little straws, and because I saw one that was like laying near the stairs, I go, the humming bird needs you. And then she like brought the hummingbird back to life. And then out of my window there was like black hummingbirds which I've never seen and like, yeah, just really, And then my mom put out a line because of course she needs to air dry her clothes, and so the bird go out on the line. So it's like it was a

There's two cats it's their cafe.

And oh my god, they were like all I mean, we were desperate for them, and they knew, they knew.

It was like, so that's so cute. But Rosie's obsessed with hummingbirds.

I'll send the photos I took because I also walked upon like a giant like a colony of giant wooden nests like sticks, like obviously normal looking nests, like domes filled with green like parrots, whole colony of them, whoa in nature. But also I saw a bird that makes its nest from bucks a rock nest, which was like incredible, so sturdy, so sturdy.

I don't know, you must have to work really hard to like grab that little rock and get an airborne with you.

Damn.

Yeah.

I just really love the animals.

I don't want to become a bird person, but I have one friend who's a bird person, so I've been sending her all the birds, and I don't I think.

She's like why, It's like I barely know this woman.

But I just showed the kids a picture of a hummingbird nest that I saw at my friend's house the other day. It was like, look at this, it's so tiny. It's like so little, these little ummings.

They defy science, but they just need so much energy because they're stop trying to.

Suck the nectar out of the stained glass.

Little birds, they're just I don't know why they can't tell it's not a flower.

Oh my god, I also have to tell you this. Okay.

I went to my friend's birthday party last week and it was roller skating.

Oh fun. So I don't think I've ever roller.

Skated, Like I literally have a tiny memory of roller skating maybe when I was like ten or eleven. But it could be a dream, you know what I mean, Like it could be something I dreamt like I have. No that was not like there was no roller rink around where I lived, Like we were more ice skating.

So I got there and I was like, oh, I.

Can probably I could probably be okay because I know how to ice skate, like the balance of it all and like the break on the front and stuff.

Like I think I'll get it. And I was doing.

Okay, and I was like going around the rink, and then this girl skated into me who knew how to skate.

I saw her skating later and I was like, you're good. Why were you anywhere near me, get away from me.

I'm just like trying to make my way around the rink and I full legs out from under me landed on my tailbone. My cocksix is bruised.

And I'm very uncomfortable really, but I did get back up and get back on the horse.

I went. I kept going. I went back around and I skated with my old friend Trixie Mattel. She was there.

I skated up to her, but he was in boy drag so, like I'll say, he I skate up to him. He was like, uh, he was like laughing. He goes, you know, I still have you on my phone. I think about you sometimes, and I was like, I think about you all the time. I listen to your podcast every week. And then we just skated around for a while together and we just talked about RuPaul and we talked about all kinds of stuff and it was really cute.

Yeah, Willim is kind of off limits. I feel like for them over there.

I know, but I would have loved to see Alaska on like all Winners, all Stars, like that would have been cool.

Yeah, it sucks too because it is like a little bit like drag is all about reading people and being fucking sassy and saying maybe what people don't want to hear and shit. But I understand also that you're like a business and when you view somebody as a liability, you know, like.

But William's the liability, you know what I mean. I like Alaska, but it makes me love Alaska even more knowing she's sticking by her good Judy. Yeah, yeah, I think also Alaska works. I think Alaska's That's fine. I'm being selfish because I would have loved to see her with the group. You know, and you saw the New Trader's monet exchange. Okay, so I did. I saw the New Traders whatever. There's a comic on there, and I'm pissed. There's no way it should be him and not me,

I'm like, so mad. He is an interesting pick.

Yeah, I bet he's gonna make it far because he's like has the sweet little voice, and but maybe he'll be cut through. I mean, who fucking knows. But is funny because.

It's like not his real voice, like a good voice, but I saw. Okay, wait, let's talk housewives that are on. Though we've got Rina Candy a Candy as I call her, Candace.

Fresh off the Baby, Dorinda is back.

I just think Dirinda being back, and maybe I'm too simple minded, you can tell me, because I've only watched one season of Traders, the most recent one. Isn't everybody just gonna assume at this time they make her a Trader like and then they voter off like pretty soon.

I don't know.

I feel like my brain didn't even go there, so I don't know you're being even maybe I shouldn't be on this show.

I was not thinking that at all.

I thought they'd be like, oh, well they brought Dirinda back, and I'm excited I would be faithful again.

Well I'm excited to see Donna Kelsey.

It's like, why this mom's person at like, you know, we've seen her be like, these are my cookies and my sons. But I wonder what she's gonna be like when Lisa Rena is like popping off.

I've honestly seen her in still photos.

I've never seen her talk, so like, I don't know what she's like at all.

Yeah, I'm excited. Oh Johnny Weir, Yeah, I'm like into it. I'm excited to talk Johnny Wear's cool, He's in it. Yeah, yeah, that'll be really fun because we need someone bringing the fashion, you know what I mean. We can't have all these survivor sociopaths. We need like a couple, We need another gab but you know, like we need some.

Out Yeah money, money, well will be turning looks, of course, I'm sure.

But yeah, oh poorsha, my face porsia. That's right.

So oh Tara Lipinski and they're actually best friends, so they might be that might fuck them up.

Who's best friends? Tara Lipinski and Johnny Whir? Oh they are? Are they? Okay?

Yeah? Interesting? I need like a list. They just keep showing me their faces and I'm on the holiday.

Well that's so funny because I only want the faces, and I'm on the Hollywood Reporter looking at the names being like what the fuck, Like, I don't know who this singer songwriter is like, oh my god, Kristen Kish the hottest person ever time I know.

I knew you were going to be so excited when I saw her name, I was like, Liza's gonna die because I knew you were a big kish head.

I'm a kish head, but also so like I was in Mexico for eight days, so I didn't watch anything.

So yesterday I got back to.

The hotel and I ordered food and I watched finale of Top Chef, premiere of Miami, I watch Next Gen NYC, I finished Love hotel, and I was up till five in the morning. It's sick, like I need to I need help. He got back to your region and you were like, give it to me, you give me my shows. And I watched drag Race as well, but I was so desperate in Mexico. I actually watched the Pit Stop before I even watched drag Race because I was like, I need to know what is happening.

I'm like, this is killing me. But okay.

So also them putting on Stephen Colletti from a Laguna beach.

I love that. I feel like they're trying to make him the new Dylan.

But I think he's he's going to be a Dylan Sandoval hybrid, because I do kind of think Stephen Collett's a bit of a.

Dumb dumb No, but you know he's an actor too, is he you watched No, like in the Hollywood Reporter doesn't say, look gonna be just as one Tree Hill.

He had like a fastful career. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

No, I think he's grown up. I don't think he's a sand of all. I don't think. Oh and I watched The Valley, which is a dark show, and I'd like to comment on The Valley really quickly. I've seen some people online be like, you know, like we gave so much shit to Sandoval, and Jaxon is doing so much worse to Brittany. I mean full abuse, like spying on her, like putting her house in folk foreclosures, stealing money from the pod like truly like he's a psychopath, cokehead.

We saw him cheat on Brittany, We.

Saw him brittanyel sunglasses on a cast trip. We saw Brittany have a listen to a voice recording of him like sucking Faith's toes, you know what I mean? Like, what are we doing here that We're like, why aren't we giving Britney more support?

And it's like because she married the devil. Yeah, she didn't marry me. I think Sandoval is the devil as well. I'm just saying like it was shocking, and we were on this journey with them for nine years and it was like, what the fuck. The reason we're not is because this is Yeah, it's Jack's pretending he's in rehabby is not. He's threatening the secretary, the receptionist at this place to lie for him. It's like, yeah, it's bonkers. There's a child. This isn't like ooh revenge dress and

It's not like her quote like fault.

But I think that's why if you're someone that's like, why is Jack's not getting the same hate as Sandoval?

That is my theory.

Yes, it's not as surprising in any way. We all knew he was gonna do this kind of shit. And I mean I in one of my in one of my Bravo groups, like I saw somebody posts like Jack's on watch what Happens Live tonight? Don't watch, like everybody unset it from your DVRs, like, don't watch it.

Let's show the network that we don't want Jacks on our screens anymore.

Like I'm being it's like a tiny act of protest and I don't know if it'll work, but like you know,

You know, like and we need that.

The thing is, we need some of the game players to keep it going and fuck around and have the traders. But it's like I don't want to watch Sociopaths win. I want Derinda on my screen. Yeah, like Derinda was never a threat. But they're just thinking numbers and like we can use this later and we can't. Like four of them is enough. There's probably there still are like four or five. There's like a couple, a couple survived. There's some that this one girl is amazing race Survivor

Yeah she's the one.

Yeah, I really really love her, so I am happy she's there. But I don't think they have like a Boston Rob. They don't have like a hated guy. I don't think from one of those, Like there's the first openly gay guy to win Survivor is Yum Yum a Rocho, Aroco.

Rob Sistina. I don't know, Like you're right, it's not the big names.

Yeah, I know, Boston Rob was not even watching those shows, you know.

Yeah, he posted a cute, cute Father's Day. He has four daughters, he loves his wife.

I don't know.

I'm just like I don't know anybody from Love Island though, because I don't watch Love.

I well, Laura, I know, because she's so beautiful, so like I remember her because.

I used to to She is gorgeous. So yeah, it's gonna be a good one. It's gonna be a good I know.

I was talking to my niece and I was like, wait, Littas, you gotta make it.

You know.

I gave her my Max Pastor. I'm like, you gotta watch it. You would love it you love Thailand. Oh my god, you have to watch girls and like girls would be cool, like you're of the age, like watch and she goes, yeah, I don't really watch that much TV.

Like back off. She's like, I ain't read books.

Oh god, but I mean she's gonna be like when you showed her, uh Devil wears Prada and she was like, why is he not stopping? No, but I exaggerated that. She's like, we had a great time. I mean we had so much fun. I missed the food in Mexico already, Like the food was so fresh, so good.

I actually didn't even neat that much Mexican food.

Like the best tuna salad I've ever had in my fucking life was in Mexico. Damn, I feel like we're losing you. You're gonna head down there?

I am.

I mean honestly, I could probably like if I never I mean, I just love comedy so much in New York and I love my life. But yeah, but like, yeah, it is. It's weird. Yeah, things are more affordable. They're obviously the exchange rate, and so you are living like at a Toma Hawk's steak for meal, Like yeah, on the water I had Margarita's the size of my head. I mean, yeah, it was it was just nice to get away, be with my family, chill.

I don't know, it was really nice. I don't really take vacations. That's really nice. I'm glad you got some time to recharge.

Well.

At first, I was like, I was like, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do?

And then I was like, oh, just just you could just sit down and yeah, hang out and gossip and you know, chat with my niece. But yeah, please come see me. Oh yeah, this isn't it. Yeah, come see me, guys. This comes out the twenty fourth. So what's coming Australia. Oh yeah, in the fall. I have dates like I'm going to Texas and Missouri and I'm gonna like book some more stuff out.

But but all of our ausy listeners get down there.

You're already down there.

Get out there and get tickets, Cosey Lisa. Yeah, I'm excited to be in Australia. It's gonna be a wild schedule, so many fights. Yeah, and I also it's also so funny. It's like I obviously live my life. I like, am so mature. And then I get back to my family, and I'm like, wait, leave the name of the coffee shop. I don't know if I can find it. And it's like, what.

Are you doing? No, I regress.

My friend was telling me so much about how she regresses whenever she goes home to her family. She's an only child, and she's just like, when I go home, I'm like.

A guys making me anything to eat.

Like she's just like such a bit, like she says, she does the exact same thing, like I'm like.

Wait, which one do I do?

Wait?

Which button for the laundry?

And it's like I've lived a full life, Like what the fuck is going I travel the world?

And then I'm like what terminal?

I know? But at the same time, I bet your parents like it a little bit.

I like bet, I bet they like a little bit going. She still needs us, she still needs mom and dad. I bet they like it.

Yeah, it was. It was a nice hanging out. I mean, yeah, it's fucking cute.

Well really quick though. But from the pre regression conversation. Go to That's Messed Up live dot com. You can scroll down towards as Liza's websites. She has all of her Australia and New Zealand dates are there like separately, and that's the correct stuff. Sometimes don't google shit because it comes up like fake ticket sites or whatever. I don't know if Australia is as bad as here, but go there, get all of the info, get your tics, spread the word.

I swear I had real life to talk about too. I feel so boring, like Mexico is nice. I had tuna salad and then I watched six episodes of television. When I get back to America, what that's okay?

I fell and broke my ass bhone. I don't have that much more to report.

Oh, I will say this. I can't wait to see the footage of ice in Philly. Philly, do your fucking thing. Yeah, Philly, do your thing.

We're talking about a fucking city that greases the lamppost so that people can't climb them.

After the Super Bowl. No, they didn't want you guys alive. It's like the mayor every two months. Please please don't climb anything. But I had so much fun in Philly. Everyone is, oh my god, wait, so I was performing in Philly. This has never happened to me ever in my life. I forgot truly where I was, and I thought I was in Boston, and I started talking about the Celtics, and then everyone booed because obviously I'm talking about the Celtics.

And then I go where am I?

And I had to look around, and I swear it took me like ten fifteen seconds to realize I was in Balley.

So funny. I could see that happening. You're all over the place.

And then I talked for a few more minutes and like did call and then I went, oh my god, you're the seventy six ers of course, Allen Iverson. And then you know, I mentioned to kem Bain Matumbo and I got them back. But like it was this thing where I truly forgot where I was. I could not believe it. So funny.

You're like, am I in New York's little brother to the North or New York's little brother to the South, Like where am i? And you know our favorite woman that works at the Philly punchline yes cue.

So she makes them like fans, like you know, like drag Race, Oh yeah, fans, And so she gifted me and the other Opener Comics fans that she made, but the fan that she made me says, not like us. Okay, I can't take that into poppeah. Yeah yeah.

So I was like, thank you so much and thanks for your artistry. But I can't. I think I have to give this to somebody. Yeah, yeah, I have them, not like us.

Fan Have I said this already because I was, I was talking to you after Philly?

Whatever? No, I mean, who knows? You don't even know what city you Ryan? Who? Who knows?

I mean again, I don't want to get in trouble for forgetting something like the trading cards.

But I don't think you've told me this before.

Also, I did talk about my broken ass on a different podcast, if you guys want to, If you guys want Oh, actually, can I do give a little shout out my other podcast that I do that's like an

Thanks, thank you, thank you so much. But yeah, let's kick off. We've got this. We're going back.

We're going back to the beginning, back to basics for this episode.

So don't go anywhere, all right. We are doing a nocturn. Is that a word or not? What is this?

It isn nock turn.

I mean a nocturn is like probably French or natural thing for nocturnal.

But I also think that it's they're being really artsy season one, real artsy with this.

Through my googling, nocturn is actually a Chopin piece, and that makes sense with the piano themes of the is it?

What's the Chopin about? I wonder, I don't. Is it about sex crimes? Well, it's called the Nocturns Op. Nine and they are a set of three nocturns for piano. So what is a nocturn pio? It is a musical composition that is inspired by or evocative of the night. Okay, any kind of not turn that is the kind of piece. And then there's a famous one by Chopin were wolf vibes, Yes of the night, the music of the note. So I'm staying, you know, here in Mexico, and I swear

But no one gave me a headset of little lizards.

Oh my god, that's so funny. Yeah, they just started. They're like, it's the lizards, So no ghosts here? All right, Well we'll begin this piano of it all. And you did not play or you did play piano I know I did play piano my entire family.

Basically, my mom's a huge pianist and her family plays, and she wanted all of us kids to play. And I took lessons for a few years and then begged to quit. And now I really regret it, Like I really wish I knew how to play, and I thought about taking lessons as an adult, but I just would have to get a keyboard to practice and this and that. But my brother is an excellent pianist, his husband and plays piano. My sister, like everybody played for a while.

Damn.

All right, Yeah, it's a cool one, all right. So photos are being printed at a store. Okay, so we could tell this very season one, Very two thousand's we're at a fucking Kodak stand.

So this is like where my friends worked in high school. My friends worked at the photo place in our town, and all my breaks, I would go see them and they'd make me doubles of all of our photos from the weekend for free.

That's a cool time to have. And it's like gone that whole thing, like no one prints photos.

It was fun.

I also like the smell of the film canisters, Like I just enjoyed the whole process of it. But anyways, look, yeah, the photos they're of a young boy. He's in a white tank top. We don't love it. His shirt's off and then uh oh, his pants are off. So we're flipping through these photos of this young boy as less and less clothes are on him. Benson and Stabler, they're their stat The clerk says, the guy dropped them off

You know what I mean, insane.

If you're gonna take photos of something perverted, I'm sorry, but you have to like have a friend that works at the photomart or you need to get your own dorkroom.

Well, if they ship them out to the photo center, it's a little different, but here it's like they're printing right in like we know you, like, what are you?

I don't not to like help you help out.

If they ship out to the photo center, that's also pornography across the state lines and stuff like that. You know, Like I don't know, I think that this guy was trying to get it done as quick as possible and in his area.

I don't know.

Yeah, so his name's Larry Holt. He had a coupon humiliating and the dude whatever the photo guys like, I didn't like it.

I knew to call it in like I knew.

Immediately, Sailor agrees and goes, yeah, these poses are fucked. Someone is posing this boy And Benson sees a bottle of booze in the picture too, and she goes, uh, oh, not booze. And then it's gonna be hard to prove child's porn. But this could also be the tip of the iceberg. And but also if this guy gets a wind that the detectives are onto him, he might clean everything up. So they're gonna tail him for a few weeks,

What are you talking about?

And so it's back and forth and they're like, you know, these poses are taught. And then there's some other man in a suit that arrives. I'll get into him later. Right now, I'm like, I'm not learning it. I go, who are you, sir? But they explained to him that Holts is a piano teacher and this is his student, which is not good, and that means there's a lot of other students that probably take lessons from this man. And also like if there's photos, that means there's more photos,

Then he's in Sex in the City.

He's in season one and it's when Miranda's having sex with a guy who has to shower. He's like a Catholic, right, he can't stop showering. I remember that guy, So it's him, and he knows that a judge is gonna throw this case out. And then the Devil wears Prada marches up and he's like, I'm taking my Oh. He goes, you took my clients wallet and keys, and Craigan goes, oh, that's totally normal though, and the Devil Wars product goes, I want him back, and he wants to go back home.

Who knows.

So they keep chatting about it, and then they go, well, it's also not a fucking accident. This giant ass house is across the street from an elementary school. So he has like a mansion of brownstone across the street from an elementary school. And at that moment, a little boy comes running to the house. They stop him and he goes, I have piano lessons, and guess what, it's the fucking boy from the photo.

So they're holding like how what what luck? What luck? What luck?

And for the whole episode, I want you guys to know that it's winter and anytime they walk outside you can hear the crispy snow and it's awesome. You really don't hear or see snow as much, I would say in SVU anymore.

And it was exciting. It was exciting.

Oh, probably global warming because I'm like, there is, yeah, winter, but yeah, there's less snow on the ground. And so you know, we got a ask the dad for questions. We got to figure things out. The little boy did find the photos once, that's what they learned, and the man called them snappies. He basically went into the music books the music stand and a bunch of the photos fell out and it was kids with no clothing on, and it's late at night. But they have to get

Weird is a rude word.

But like he's strange, and they're really upset that they have to watch it all and they have so much more to do, and Belzer's like, you know what, I'll stay, I'll do it, and they're chatting about all the charges, but stablers like, no, I want a charge of abuse, but they can't do that without a complainant, and Craigan goes, we need to get that kid. So we pause it and it's the boy that we just watched grow up

So then they they meet Evan.

Evan's the abused man, and they show him a photo and they're like, we're looking for this guy. And now we're in a separate we're in a new room, marble room, blinds, so oh that's okaying, And the door opens, there's Ams files and you know, he loves he loves holtzt he loves him. He's trying to get and he's helping him try to get into a three year program. He wants to go to Juilliard, you know, lots of practice and

Whatever.

So they're like debating is it worth ruining his life and full future or not to show the tapes or like showman court or let him just live. No, he was abused, I don't know. So Kragan is with Evan and they're hitting play on the tape. Obviously we got to keep the story moving. We can't be like, honestly, we do care about your mental health. You should go home. Nothing happened wrong.

Person.

They're gonna say, we're gonna watch You're gonna watch a tape of you being abused. He warns him this is gonna be hard to watch and what happened was wrong and that we need help from you, Evan, And then Evan is realizing what's happening? And he's like, what is this? And it is ruining him. He's begging for it to be turned off. He stands in the corner, slides down the wall to the ground and he is repeating, no, no,

I mean, she's got a lot of substance go in.

Oh and then they're also talking to Evan, and Evan had his fucking Juilliard audition the next day, so it's like, now you've traumatized him before his big audition.

You couldn't wait till.

The fun way today.

Oh my god.

So now they're going through the album and all the photos and he is not giving the detectives what they want. He loves Larry, he cares about him, you know, he bought him a coat one year. And they keep leading for help and like the convo always goes back at this Gray Guzamano again, he was a prodigy at seventeen.

And then Evan goes, and I'm twenty one. No one's caring about me.

And then Benson, with a fun fact, comes in and goes, well, you know, Juliard just accepted a forty two year old flute player. And then Evan goes, yeah, that guy was a monk, and Benson goes, no, it's not too late, and Evan smirks and goes, really bitch, and then opens the album and starts going through the photos and he goes, that's Caesar. He's in jail. That's Ricky. He's a junkie Tony. No one knows where the fuck he is. And he

And what like were we like? I don't know.

I really miss those times of like one communal phone and everyone coming together for a voicemail. So that's just cute. But it's Evan. So Evan beeped him. He calls Evan back and as his kids climb him and they want Christmas again, but it's February.

They can't have Christmas.

Staylor seems panicked and is like, I will be there as soon as I can. So he runs to Polly's diner. His mom threw him out. God she didn't want f Sler staying at his place. So now he's homeless, so again the cops, I hope you've ruined this man's life. He offers emergency housing and stuff like that, but I don't know. And then you know, Evan's hands hurt from dishwashing, so he got fired from dishwashing, now, you know. So he's like, fine, I'll fucking testify. So Stabler got what

You know?

And he's like, I didn't think I had a choice. So Stabler nods an understanding. Stabler then responds, whatever person you choose, it should be your choice, and when you're ready to see someone that way, you will. So we're back at the Stabler household and they have a piano. Okay, how did you afford that? I think Kathy comes from money?

Really?

Well, they met in private school, they live in a giant house. They can afford to have all those kids in the city on a police salary, and now they have a piano and they're still going downtown for Manicotti Night. Like I'm sorry, Yeah, maybe cavy comes for money is a good theory.

That's my new theory. Tell us what you guys think.

So then Kathy asks if he is all right, you know, because he's lurking by their piano.

She's creeped out.

And then they sit on the couch and he sighs and leans back and a lot of you know, shirt buttons are un buttoned, so that's hot, and he's having a beer and he doesn't want to really talk to her. So Kathy says, did you talk to Olivia about it?

Okay? Season one?

And he says, she's my partner, and Kathy nods and then more like, you know, sighing a lot of sighing. And now we're back to work. There's that was really not finished. That convo is left. But because we just had that work wife comment, yeah, from like an episode we just did. I guess I'm just realizing these little moments. So, oh, do you tell Olivia? Did you tell Olivia? Yeah? And it's like, I don't know, Kathy, do you really want to hear about like molested children? Right?

Right?

Keep it at keep it at work, keep it at work.

Right? People are upset when I talk about the curri I'm bringing up friends that stop and people are not happy about it.

So I don't know why she's so gung. Oh.

Stabler and the man eightya are talking about Evan and how we get him ready and comfortable in court. And even though he's older, he is frozen as an eight year old from when he was molested. So the man lawyer is like, oh, okay, when I get kids, I give them a courtroom prep.

So we go to the courtroom to prep him.

He's spinning in the judges chair, he's playing with the gavel, he touches the witness box, he sits in it, and they're just really planning to help him, like do the best he can on the stand, and he can't be in court during the whole trial because then there'd be might be contamination. So when it's his turn, you know that you just come on in, talk loud clear, and only look at the lawyer, ignore everything else but the question,

He doesn't seem like the straw type to me? Is that rude? Is that.

I don't know, Like I just can't imagine. I feel like Stabler is someone that would think using a straw is gay. Like I know he's being really progressive and cool in this episode, but I feel like he'd be anti straw until they said that it sucked with the turtles, and then he'd be like, oh, come on, I don't know. Well, I'm sick of asking for three paper straws because they get so soggy and gross.

Yeah, there has to be another way. Why can't we just not put the trash in the oceans. I don't understand why we have to get away from plastic straws.

Because I would also be down for Like I like the glass and metal straws. I like the permanent straws. I'm not cleaning them. Yeah, I don't do dish. I'm gonna clean a straw with a straw thing.

I gonna carry one around in a little case and have that be your straw wherever you go.

I don't think so now, I just don't think so. And I want to be that girl. I love the feeling of a metal straw because it cools it even more, you know, it's like exciting. So Belser is sitting pondering at his desk and he's like, what makes a purp a purp? And Stabler goes, I don't care, and I love that and I love that. Yeah, Belzer's like, you know, bringing up frontal lobes and maybe he was abused, and Stabler again goes, I don't care.

Like I don't care.

He heard a lot of kids, and that's all I care about, no matter what your lobe is looking like. And Belzer goes, well, I have something to show you. And it's a tape and it's a tape of Evan and he is with a young child and we hear Larry's voice off camera, and then he moves into camera and then like he says, the little boy is ready to start learning. And now finally, Stabler is sitting and Belzer is like Blair Witch in a corner and leaning on file cabinets, and the little boy goes, what are

What else? What are we gonna do?

And Benson's screams that are like, what do you mean we were ready to kill Holts when we saw the video. And it's Jeffries, Benson, Craigan, and Munch and they're all in Craigan's office debating like, yeah, he's both a victim and an abuser. Now what And if Evan hurts another kid, then that's going to be on us, And Craigan says, the law that binds Holts also binds Evan. It's the same laws. And I really like the way I like a lot of the ways these people are speaking in this episode, So yeah.

But I also feel like there is a coercive element to what's happening to Evan. Even when he is committing the crime, he is being coerced by a lifelong a person who abused him for years, So it seems to me like he's not fully responsible.

No, but I'm like I forgot how the what was the case with the van where it's like this boy was sold to this guy and was lessed in the van and then they would kidnap kids together. He's still got like the prison sentence even if your court, like I you know what I mean, I don't know, like.

I think he needs help.

I just think it's like it's like when you are in an abusive household and like and someone hurts a child and like they they they're like mad at the mother and the mother gets a more horrible sentence for not doing anything to help, and it's like she's living as a prisoner in an abusive household though in a lot of ways like and like and has been traumatized beyond belief, you know, like this kid has been traumatized so badly that like I do think it's like very

You know, you're right though, Like him being in the room on that video, Yeah, like if he was I guess.

Evan alone being like this is how you teach.

It was like the guy said, okay, time to do what you were told, And like it might even be before he even saw the video that he even knew that was like a bad thing to do to someone, you know what I mean. It's like when you condition someone so young, they're like, oh, this is what learning piano lessons is. You know well, yeah, because I haven't said he thought he didn't have a choice. Yeah, he didn't have a choice to quit the lessons.

He didn't have a choice to not molest this little boy when he was prompted, like I don't know, don't.

You didn't even know he was abused really until the detectives showed him that tape.

Yes, that's what I'm saying, like it awakened this whole thing. Like so I don't know in less and again they're right, if he does go on to abuse other people, he doesn't need help. I just don't know that, Like jail time is necess Sarah know.

But the trauma to the children he did do it on, or that one child on the tape, It's like if I were that kid's parents, I don't care what happened to Evan or not, or who was in the room. It's like, you molested my kid, right, Yeah, the trauma's been done. Yeah, even if we feel bad for him, I mean it really being poor sucks, like we should help everyone.

We should help people to not be poor.

And then.

I don't know, well, just to not repeat cycles of abuse as well, you know, just like this kid, if he even knew what had happened to him, or had had any resources or a mother that wasn't just like smoking newports and being like, oh, my kid just plays piano all day.

Like if he had kicks him out, he kicks him out. Yeah.

Yeah, So like if he had any support, he would have eventually he would have probably at some point figured out that what was happening to him was criminal, and he would and maybe he wouldn't have kept doing he wouldn't have gone on to do it himself.

But yeah, and depending on the quality of the school.

It's like, did any teacher notice anything right, like change in his behavior or demeanor?

And you know, like you need smaller classes.

It's all just so interconnected, and I feel like we're always just looking at everything on its own when it's

And I go, well, Dad, that's a great question.

I go, well, it's a private prison and people make money, and then these people can't vote, and then they're doing you know, labor in it, and it's like slave labor in these jails, and like, so they're getting like labor out of these people. They're getting them to stop voting, and I'm like, and they're making money off and prisoning them. And then but so you just think about like, oh, these free loading kids, right or whatever evil people think.

But you know, I'm not writing the episode, so it's my degree from the Law and Order sv University, and so now he's unfortunately demoted from the marble room to the cement room bars and Evan's talking and Larry said, Jonathan didn't feel the music. Oh, can you play a piece of music about longing if you've never felt that?

And it's how Evan learned how to play. So that's that. And Sabler's like, so what are you going to do with your talent now? It's like, okay, things are bad enough. Stabler like, you don't have to fucking remind him he's not going to be able to play piano. And then Stabler asked how many times did it happen? And Evan goes, only once, that's the truth, and I deserve to be punished. And he's like, I will test the fight tomorrow. You can arraign me. They're like, no, we're willing to make

Have in all of this? And it's like.

You're thinking about that kid, but what about the kid that was abused? You know, It's like they're all little kids. So now we're in court, we're talking about bail. They choose not to put him in prison overnight because the stress of that might fuck up with him testifying. So the judge puts him in a motel. Stabler's with him, and Evan goes, do you hate me? And Sablor says,

It's like, you're a criminal. I hate you.

And then finally at the end, the judge is like, well, we've heard from everybody, dude, do you want to say something, And the lawyer goes no, no, no, no, no, he does not. I'm sure he would just get hard on the stand with his fucking beady little eyes, so that the judge says, look, I've read everything and seen everything. Nothing indicates that you feel any remorse, and so I'm not gonna be lenient in any way. Note by note, you eroded the hope from every child in your charge. You stole from them,

I don't give a fuck.

And Evan's in a suit and tie, he's in cement room bars and he's you know, he got into Juilliard. We find out he got into Juilliard, so that stinks, and the judge refuses to make a deal with him, which I think makes sense. Like I said, but he's only going to jail for one to three years, which I think like helps with the sadness we feel for this character. But it is a bummer that he got into Juilliard again, like you fuck up his own and then you we wave.

The envelope in his face.

Yeah, but anyway, so with trial, like but with trial, his lawyer says, we won't get the max, so like, we'll just take back our plea deal, you know, like I bet in court we'll get enough sympathy to be able to get probation and we'll get what we want. Why would we agree to this max sentence? And then Evan says, no, Jonathan can't go through that, and so he goes, whatever, I'll be in jail for you three years.

And it stops here now.

And he looks out the bar windows and that's stickwolf baby. Also, do we assume that Holt was not also molesting this little boy, the one he's the Yeah, he's the one of the pictures, right, m hmm, yeah, like he definitely is.

So I don't know.

The dad is like getting justiced for the guy who molested his son, probably multiple multiple times, and then he really wants the guy who did it one time.

I'm also to get jail time. It just, uh, who's also a victim?

I don't know.

I mean, yeah, not to keep bring up my dad, but I did just spend a lot of time with my family. But we were talking about how like he also, we don't know where he gets information, so take this with a grain of salt. But he was just saying how he read about like a family whose son unfortunately died in a drunk driving collision, like a drunk driver hit him, and the guy offered them like thirty million dollars like he was like a rich guy, and it's

We want you to go to jail.

And my dad was confused about like why they wouldn't just take the money, and I go, it's about justice, dad, I go, they didn't want the money. They wanted like a suffering and he he just didn't get it. But I don't know, like your kid's dead, you want the person in trouble like you want I don't know, right, yeah, because you don't want to be bought off when your child's dead, like what are you gonna but thirty million?

I don't know.

Again, I don't know where these numbers came from. Who this is? Is this real? I'm not sure.

Yeah.

I just wonder if like someone came to me and they were like, oh, your son's piano teacher has been your kids piano teacher has been molesting them, and then one of their other students that they molested from your son's age to into adulthood one time was also coerced into doing it as well.

I feel like my anger would mostly be towards Holt.

But again, it's a television show, Okay. So here's what's crazy when you Obviously, we have a bunch of different places where we find out where crimes are from, but a lot of times we use the law and order fandom Wikipedia, and they say, based on a reported Brooklyn case involving a piano teacher who gave free lessons to underprivileged children in order to videotape himself molesting them, that word for word.

Is written multiple times all around the internet. But I cannot find a case where that actually happened.

I can't.

What I did find are two cases kind of close to each other in the late nineties, right as this because this is from the first season, right as the show was kicking off, and I think it might be like a little bit of a maybe a little bit of a combo of the cases. So I will start with this first one. This is from nineteen ninety seven.

After what he.

Saw, the janitor went to the principal right away, and then that is where the story diverges. The principal, whose name was l Winfield, says that the janitor told him we've got a problem or something like that, but that he never got into details or something. But then the janitor goes, no, no, I said, I told the principle to misconduct, and the principle told me to put it in writing, which the janitor refused to do.

I don't know why, but who knows.

The janitor could have had a million reasons why he didn't want to write a report, but he said this is what I saw to the principle on May ninth.

That's three weeks later.

Three weeks have gone by where nothing has happened since this janitor has witnessed this. May ninth, the janitor decides to call Edward F. Stansick, who is the Special Commissioner of Investigation for City Schools in New York. And then five days later, on May fourteenth, stansik Is and his investigators interviewed the janitor, who reports what he saw and he did this with the principal present, and the principle was like, that's not what happened.

Whatever.

But two days later they asked Winfield to remove Williams and re the teacher, reassign him, but the principal refused until he got allegations in writing from San Sik's office. So super cool, principle definitely not covering for a fucking pedophile teacher that's on his staff. So the teacher was permitted to stay at the school that Friday, May sixteenth, Monday, and Tuesday May nineteenth and twentieth, all after he kind of knows he's being investigated. On Tuesday the twentieth, the

Yeah that's a pedophile. Yeah, he's in it. He's working hundred miles by bus. What is that three hours each way? That's what I'm trying to hold on. I want to know the answer to this.

Let me go to Okay, there must be some stops Flatbush, Brooklyn.

Okay, this is insane.

It's literally over one hundred miles. It's two and a half hours each way driving. I can't even imagine if you're taking the bus, that has to be four hours where you're taking a greyhound.

Did he stay in the city right.

In two They said he did this every day, and this is one way, Like I don't understand. They said he did this every day in the article that I read in the New York Times.

So because we my favorite art teacher ever in elementary school. She lived in Indiana, but then during the week she stayed at her sister's house in the city and on the weekends went back to spend time with her husband.

Like we asked the questions, Yeah.

This says I traveled one hundred miles by bus every day to get there, and that must be one hundred miles home as well. So I have no idea. But a lot of students like knew this guy Williams. He taught musical instrument lessons as well as voice lessons, and a lot of students like couldn't believe that he was capable of what he was accused of, you know, But they discovered through their investigation that Williams and this student had been having quote unquote sexual relations since January of

Just reading something and it said the woman was a teenager.

The teen was teen so yeah, so gross. Yeah.

And so they also found out that Williams had gotten a permission slip from her parents to you know, help bolster his crimes. Like he basically was like, oh no, I got a permission slip for parents said she's allowed to be here.

So he and he eventually two days.

Later, after he fled back to his home after he you know, verbally assaulted the girl he'd been assaulting for months, he turned himself into investigators two days later, on May twenty second, ninety seven, and he was charged with second degree sodomy, second degree sexual abuse, and endangering the welfare of a child. The New York Times writes in this article, quote, If convicted of the sodomy charge, the most serious of the charges, mister Williams faces up to seven years in prison.

End quote. Why is that the most serious charge.

Why is that a stronger charge than second degree sexual abuse, like sodomy?

Like it's just that to me? Is so the puritanical old homophobia. Yeah, I was gonna say, like old laws of our country. But the principal obviously did come under fire for not reassigning the teacher after he heard the allegations, which he really should have done immediately, but the principal claimed he never heard specific allegations from the janitor, So he's like, I didn't do anything wrong, of course, professional dumbass.

An excuse for letting NYPD handle security in New York City public schools, which the school chancellor did not want to happen. So he was like, you know, this custodial worker might have felt much more comfortable reporting that incident to a cop than to his boss. And it's like why why would like why are you acting like everybody feels much more comfortable talking to the cops. You know, like this janitor did the right thing, he told his boss,

He's a fucking idiot, Rudy Giuliani.

So honestly, I cannot find what happened as the results of this case.

I Cannot'm assuming nothing.

Yeah, Like I can't find whether Michael I mean, the name Michael Williams is like so common, but I also just can't find I looked him up in lookups, Like, I just cannot find whether he was Like, I'm sorry, that's a red flag. You can't get a job in the Poconos. You can't move to Flatbush. What's going on here? Yeah, what do you mean? You're driving one hundred miles per bus back and forth every single day. It's a teach band.

There's like Michael L. Williams and Michael W.

Williams, like there's just so many, so I don't know what they're This guy actually got convicted or served time. I would imagine he somehow was like the janitor didn't see what he saw or something, and maybe he got off but very the movie election, yes, and hopefully he didn't get his get to teach again, but who knows. And then the next crime that I found, which was impossible to find stuff about, like impossible, I found a blog that had.

A ton of the credit articles. What could we use blogs? Is that a credible source?

Well?

Really secret here.

In this blog post which I'm I'm putting in my sources in this blog post, there is they have word for word copy and pasted articles that were on the internet about this case. And I know that because some of them are New York Times, and so I ended up being able to find those in like the way like way back, but some of them are from like the Bergen County Record and newspapers that have now folded into other newspapers and are now at newspapers dot Com, and I have to get a subscription and then pour

So he did tape these things?

Well yeah, because then, yeah, it's because I'm thinking like with power and property, or like having a piano teacher and like authority, all of that, but then to add like a close knit religious community, to like an added thing of secrecy and trust. And they couldn't even like question people because I think the day they brought him in was like the Sabbath, and they were like, well, we're not even gonna be able to get to some of these witnesses until tomorrow, you know, or possible victims.

He was found hanging in.

His home with a plastic bag over his head, and he left a note, but they did not publicize what was in the note.

And this shot, I want to know.

I know this got a tiny bit of news attention because he was the second teacher in two weeks in that county to take their own life after being accused of molesting a student. So like in a two week span, there was him in this other teacher that was and

You know. I wonder if they like changed the app or yeah, this is later in the season, like it could have happened weeks right before the Yeah, and so if somebody like saw that because I wanted to do like a New York show.

I feel like, yeah.

And this happened in New Jersey, but was featured in the Metro section of New York Times, which is happening in the Tri state area. So I think they could have seen this about the piano teacher and then said, okay, but let's change it to this and then like the victim becomes the molesterer. Is definitely like a thing, because you know, Season one is prenial Bear, so I don't know how much medical journaling we're doing. But yeah, So those are the two stories I found. I could not

Also, being a parents insane. You're one day you're like, oh, yeah, my kid wants to play piano. The next day, I know, molestation, I know. And yeah, so I guess your kids aren't playing piano. They're they're not my mom My. Mom's really pushing for it. She's really pushing for it. But also, yeah, I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know any I don't know anything. I don't know.

I think I worry about it, but I'm also like, I will die if I just worry about this constantly. But let's get onto our guests, because we have a iconic guest. Our guest today is an actor best known for his role as Angel in the original Broadway run of Rent, for which he won a Tony Award for Best Actor.

Featured in a Musical.

But you know him today as the piano prodigy and victim turned abuser Evan. Please enjoy our chat with the lovely Wilson Jermaine Heredia.

Oh, I mean, our listeners are gonna go insane.

This is huge. We're very thrilled you're here.

Thank you for having me.

I mean I texted my best friend this morning, who has two Rent tattoos on her body, and she was like an icon like you. I mean, I have like all of Angel's songs on my mixtapes from high school.

Like it's that's fantastic to be able to talk to you, so exciting. Did you watch that so much?

Yeah? Did you rewatch it?

No? No, I haven't rewatched it. I because I've for a long time I used it. It was still it was on my reel until about I don't know, about five years ago because it was such a good it was it was like it was my first TV episodic ever, uh and where I got to cut my teeth on it and for a while, and just because I was just lazy about about redoing my reel. So I've always seen bits of it and friends throughout the years they would say like, oh my god, I didn't know you

Yeah, because I was gonna say, I just looked up it actually came out May twelve, two thousand, so like just over twenty five years to the day pretty much. Yeah, And we're talking to you, so we always appreciate when somebody from the earlier seasons comes on to talk about show they made two decades ago. So we appreciate you, and we would love to hear anything you remember. I mean, like so you were, like you remember, you were more of like a Broadway baby doing all this stuff, winning

Well, you know, just just through the regular channels. I auditioned for it. I was auditioning for other stuff before, and and I was trying to figure out like what, I'm a very strange well even even still now, even now that I'm a little bit more burly, I'm a

Love to hear it.

Once you booked it, then, what was like the shooting, Like, I mean, it was such a it was like Law and Order was an established show, but it was the first season of SVU.

I mean, now it's the longest running live action show. Season twenty six is wrapping up. But like you were in the first inaugural season.

Yeah, oh it was. It took it was two weeks, which I don't know how long episodes take now, but it was. Yeah, it was about two weeks and you know, days were long, and I remember thinking, I love this process. I really do love this process. The one thing that I noted immediately was that you had to have endurance. It's a different kind of energy and a sort of patience.

Well you're probably excited, absolutely absolutely, and and.

I came away thinking like I can do this. I can do this on a regular you know, like, HI, definitely hire me as a seasoned regular for anything. And I'm and I'm still you know, to this day, I'm still I'm still looking to see like what what is what is in the cards for me? As far as that that that that for me is is like my my, Mecca, my my, it's it's it was like the gig that I do want. And uh, I mean because you know you're off on weekends also mean you don't shoot on weekends.

Well, because it was season one, I bet they also still had the level of excitement too, you know, like now everyone says it's a well oiled machine, but I bet they were all jazz to to get those jobs and like be on set. Yeah, wonderful the extra But then the episode so dark yeah, I know, and your character is kind of quiet, you know, they really have to pull so much out from him.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's there were a lot of there were a lot of scenes. I mean there was there was there was that excitement, but there was also that that energy of of what the subject matter is about, and and how disturbing all of it was, and and so you know, you had to make sure to lighten up when when when the director would say cut, and

I mean, your Wikipedia does not have a lot of information about you in terms of like it says you grew up in New York, But then like how did you get into that?

Were you doing that in high school? Were you like discover your theater? Like how were you just like a god?

I wish man? I wanted to. I wanted to. I went to actually college not not far away from mcguard I went to Hunter. I went about it in I got to the theater or to acting in a roundabout way. But I was always I was always a performer of some sort or I was and I was definitely definitely one artist. I was visual artists ever since. You know, I remember really seriously taking drawing very very seriously, went to art school. Was always the center of attention in

Yeah.

So a friend of mine said, you know, why don't you well, since you can't take the dance classes anymore, it's going to be useless for you being in there, why don't you just audit the acting one oh one class. And that's what I did. I walked into the acting one o one class and Heather Alurs was the teacher, and within one month, within the month of me being in that class, I was already in my first off

Did your parents end up coming to shows?

Some? But I think maybe like one two, they thought it was a hobby. They thought it was still still a hobby, a hobby that I They knew that I was talented and that I was hard working at that, but they they saw it as a talent. They didn't see it as a way of really making a living. I mean it's hard, but a way of They didn't see it as a lifestyle. They just thought as as a hobby for me. It wasn't It's not a lifestyle for me. It's it's who I am, It's what I do,

Uh.

And so when they saw a rent, they were like wow. For a while, I mean my mom even even my mom for a while, well that would say like, she's like, you can't sing. She's like so she would laugh when I would try to sing. And then after that, I was still I was still living at home. And but it wasn't like I was living at home the whole time before I moved out. Then had to come and uh, I had to come back for a stint and then and then I was like, okay, I'm just saving money

Now that you've won a Tony. Oh my god, you.

Can do both, Like Mom, it's it shows like I don't think you understand like how much energy this takes. And she she didn't, but uh, but yeah.

When you join rent, like you guys all have gone on to such amazing careers, Like were you close with are you close with specific people from that cast?

I saw you all at Redwood.

It's not all of you, but it was Oh yeah, Adina's new.

Yeah, well not all of us were able to make it. I'm pretty sure, Like, but we we we still have a group chat.

The two that have been on the podcast.

Oh yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you guys have a group chat.

Yeah yeah, all of us still pretty much. Tay changed his number, so Tay is the only but he was on the group chat for a while. We're genuinely, genuinely family and friends and so, you know, and we talked to you know, some people talk to each other more than others. But but since Jesse started his new show, I I I hear from him less, but we but we check. We chat quite a bit.

We do any last minute tidbits that you remember from the set, like uh or anything you want to prom or Sepher Maloney throwing up piece of pie at someone at Craft Services.

I don't know that was that was bad improv. I couldn't think of anything.

When when they show me the video of of me getting raped and and it's just me and my reaction shot if you remember, there's a set when I go like what's this? What's this? Like no, no, no, and that's when I collapse and I go to the corner of the room, the floor and I and I go like no no. But the director did in order to get my reaction. I mean, if he knew, if he knew where I came from, he would have gotten something else for me, because what he what he showed me

You know, totally starts helping the department.

Yeah, becomes a cop and becomes a season regular. That's for you because if my man, I see kid can be it s for you, right he is he on SVU.

If he for you, he joined the season after you your your part, then.

Then you know they can they can have me. They can definitely like write me in right right Evan and go like you know Evan or you know, he paid his dues, he went to the Academy.

This thing, or they can have you back as somebody totally different.

They could have you back.

Who knows again, I look I look different now I'm a different cat. So you know.

Yeah, oh memoriessh.

You were on our list of guests from the very beginning in this podcast is four years old, all right, so we've been really happy to get you.

That was cool. What a fucking icon.

But I also love in the intro to call victim turned abuser.

That's such a funny thing to put in it. Someone's so many.

Are so many are We've talked about that in our on this pod a lot. But I was jazz to get to talk to him, like I have. My best friend is such a Rent head. She has like two Rent tattoos on her body. She was so excited when we talked to Anthony Rapp And then I messaged her and was like, we're talking to Angel, Like she used to make me mixes that had today for you on the mix.

Like I just Angel was and just loves his fucking craft.

And I just like like talking to people that are in you know, I have some insight and work hard and like, have you seen Rent in terms of like the movie or like or have you stayed on Broadway? I didn't know, Okay, I like, I just saw the movie so much. Yeah, the movies not good.

I don't think. I didn't think the movie was good.

But I have to see a Dina Menzel Tree Tree musical.

Oh yeah, but rent on Broadway was so amazing. And maybe it's just because like I saw it as like a high schooler and was like it was like so transformative and awesome and like, but a lot of the characters are really like selfish and kind of like crazy New Yorkers, like squatting in buildings and making their dreams come true and like whatever.

But Angels just like kind of pure hearted and like.

So she's she's definitely like a character in the show that you're just like everybody loves Angel.

So anyway, love it.

Oh wait, have you seen the discourse on Sabrina Carpenter.

Yeah I I have not, but I spoke about it, thank God.

Yes, So I know about it, and I think it's like it's crazy, it's a little bit crazy.

I saw a meme.

I saw a meme that was like, well, I don't know. I guess I had to hear what you have to think.

I don't like the picture and I don't like that

It's like, what is.

It well, I didn't know that it was supposed to be satire or anything.

I thought it was just kind of like a kink. I thought.

She was just like yeah, I kind of like to play be like do this like BDSM type thing because it's it's what's it called again? The album man Man's Best Friend, Manchild's a song.

I think the album's Man's Best Friend. Oh yeah, that's right.

And people were like immediately going to do I mean, I was like I was my first take off of hearing it for two seconds and having to talk about it on another podcast was just kind of like, well that feminism is that you can do that if you want. Like if being treated like a dog is your feminist, Like is your kink and something that you actually think is hot, and you like you're allowed to have that. You're also allowed to God, you're allowed to be a trad wife. You're allowed to not be a trad wife.

I know. I just like it.

The image does make me uncomfortable, and I watch pretty fucked up porn, I would say, I don't know for I don't because the people that are like saying there's more to it, I just that they're like it's satire. I don't see the satire, but I didn't think about it in the like kink kind of kink via, So do you let like like just asking what if it

That's an interesting argument. Now, that's a very interesting argument, Like cause to put that album cover coming out at the time that it's coming out, like if hairs, that's an a statement.

Yeah, it would everything a statement when you're as famous as she is.

So yeah, it's not just like cutie baby, like ooh, isn't this kind of sexy and provocative like you are? Like that is an argument I had not thought of because I.

Looked at all the ads and it is fine.

I don't know, but what people other things online I was saying was like, the spin of this would be if like she was disrespecting a guy, like if a guy was on all fours being grabbed by their hair. But then with the kink element, it's like, yeah, she's into this, this is great.

I don't know.

The pulling of the hair makes me uncomfortable with the satire with not whatever she's trying to flip. It's not flipping because it's happening right now, you know.

What I mean.

Women are being abused and losing their rights. So it's like, what is the joke, Like I you know what I mean, Like I don't get it, And then people are like, why won't anyone leave Sabrina Carboner alone. She's obviously not for the male gaze, and we talked about this where I go, she is dressing really provocative, but it is so girly. She's for the girls, and it's very clear and obvious, and the lyrics of her songs say that and all of it, And honestly, yeah, I'm into crawling around.

I get that.

I just my brain didn't go there because I was so uncomfortable with the image and if her goal is to make people uncomfortable with the violence against women, then I guess.

She did it.

Yeah, if that was her goal, You're right, I mean you could read, you could read, you could fucking do a college course on this, Like this is like the semiotics of this image, like what you see, Like when you see this image, like shecuse her hair is getting pulled, but she doesn't necessarily look like she's in pain.

She looks like she's having a good time, like yeah, you know what I mean.

Like it's like if she was like even doing a little bit of a WinCE, it would be like fuck.

That makes it a totally different image to me, you know, And I do like that.

The guy, like what they do to women a lot where just a body part and you don't know who that is, Like yeah, it's pretty cool bodied man. Yeah, And I know she's smart and you know cool. I just I want to know who the photography, who is the creative director? I wonder I would like to know if it was a guy or is it Terry Richardson?

You know what I mean?

Yeah, Like I hope it's it was all her idea with her stylists and all of that, and obviously a lot of talk went into it. It's a full album cover and a whole new Yeah.

And I was also talking about this when I was talking about this on another podcast, was like, if this is like coming this image is coming out in like ninety nine and it's Britney Spears, I'm a little bit like because like I never got the feeling that Britney Spears was in charge of anything in her career. That's like part of like the issue with how she was how she was being treated. But when I see like Taylor Sabrina, I feel like these girls are in charge

Yeah, Like I'm looking at it.

And I also don't like line when it's like like we should all have known, you just don't know. It's about fifties ads, you fucking idiots, and it's like, yeah, yeah, no, I didn't know that. Now I'm looking at them, I'm taking it all in. But this idea that like you all.

Knew immediately like where this was coming from. And if you.

Don't, every girl I was born in the nineties was immediately making fifties out references.

But if we weren't in the Maga era of going back to this. They are actively trying to take us back to this.

That's okay, That's an argument that I think is very interesting. Anyway, this episode is obviously so fucked up, but like I said, when we were when we were recapping, like it is very interesting to me that even as far back as season one, this show was kind of like fucking with

On Redo guzzamando, but damn it is. And congrats to the people who got my Marishka tickets.

I hope you had fun.

Oh I got damned people had fun, just two people, But yeah, I.

Want to watch that. Is that out already? On Age it'll be out. Yeah, you just premiered. It just premiered, Yeah, yeah yeah, And I have a show tonight.

But I've been having nightmares, like kind of with school since I took eight days off. I was on the trip that like I forgot all my jokes. Like I've been having nightmares where I'm on stage and I don't know any of my jokes and none of them are working and I can't get them out.

Oh that's because you never take like long breaks.

No.

I actually just did a set on Saturday for the Cracked thing that people are doing.

I saw some comics from I saw Tom.

Takar I saw, but I wrote a bunch of new jokes for it, and I've been like working them out around town and was like, wow, I forgot how much I love stand up when I have new stuff, Like, you know, it's really fun, but.

Okay, so funny.

My sister said something like she doesn't understand why Brad or like, when you're that rich, why would you continue working? And I'm like, they like it, they like to make movies. But she she was like, I just I don't know they have enough. I'm like, I think it's weird to do commercials. But also if someone's giving you fifteen million dollars to hear a watch, I don't know why you wouldn't.

But you always say when somebody is just like a NEPO that's super rich, why do they work at all?

Well, I think they should just be more service oriented. I don't understand. Yeah, I don't understand the earth. And it's like do photography, do the stuff, but why do you have to make Like I don't get it, like do the thing, but there's no pressure on you. Like I just don't get why people with that much are not service minded in any capacity, Cause it's.

Sudden to be like I need to make my mom proud of me.

And it's like with a fashion line, you're sixty five, No one's a press, no one's impressed that you had other employees do something for you and put together this adult talent show.

This is humiliating. Oh my god, oh my god. There's such a good read.

I saw online and it was Tricia Pats played Radio City Music Hall. Yeah, I saw and so there was like a security guard. His face is like the confusion of like why is this adult for? Like what is that?

What's happening? Because Radio City.

Even if you don't get the PIP or something, there's like a level of prestige. I would say, if you perform there or like some sort of skill. But it's like just a woman singing poorly and the security guard is so confused.

This is what happens when.

You can eat a full pizza on YouTube and get people to be excited about that. I guess, well, but I like her, that's the thing. She's so good spirited. I also like, I love Brittany Broski. I like that the Kombuchi girl has like a whole umpire, Like I like her.

You know, Brittany's so funny. She's like really talented and she's a great singer. I'm liking like I think her voice is great, but that it is funny when like somebody goes from like cause like you could either be Komuca girl for ten minutes, but she parlated into something more because she has talent, like Tan Mom.

We don't have Tan Mom anymore. But it's kind of.

Like Nikki's Glazer's Golden Globe joke too, where it's like the whole point of the arts is to become so successful that you make a tequila brand and never have to make art again. Yeah, you know, And it's all these people being like all of you are making money off Mexicans and tequila and everything, and you're fucking silent and don't how.

I don't know. It's just I don't know.

I've never been in a position where people want to give me money to do limited work and go into business like. I don't know, but I definitely understand. I want to work forever. It's like, I don't want to go to retire. I hope I like perform. I like it.

I just got off the phone with my mom, who I told you retired a few months ago. She's looking for part time work. She's going to get a new certification and start to get a new My.

Dad's back at the pool. Yeah, thirty one. It's good though. I think it's good for your mind.

I think it's good for your spirit to like keep at something not like full time gruel, but like you know something.

Yeah, hopefully people can still retire. Yeah, well hopefully we'll see. Well, maybe there'll be a special camp for them.

When we all go to the camps, when we all go to the health camps. Our case sending us to health camps. It's gonna be great. Okay, let's get into what would Sister Peg Do? This is our weekly segment where we direct you towards an organization or a book, a documentary, something that has to do with today's episode that we covered today. We're gonna go move a little bit away from this. What we covered in today's episode, we have highlighted many, many organizations that deal with child

Thank you so much for that.

And next week we'll be doing Manhunt from season two, episode eighteen. So yeah, we're really sticking sticking to these early seasons.

And it's a fun one. Oh yeah, it's scary, scary.

We appreciate all of you Thank you for listening, caring about people around you, and messaging us and being supportive.

We're upsided you guys rock. We'll see you next week. Hie.

That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production. If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Listen to That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Klank and at Glitter Cheese. As always, please see our show

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