Nationwide Manhunt w/ Sarah Storm

Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on. These are our stories, done done, Yay, that's messed up. An SVU podcast.

My name is Lisa and I'm Kara, And every week we break down an episode of Law and Order SVU the true crime it was based on, and talk to a guest from the episode. But first we catch up. And today is New Year's Eve. It's the last day of twenty twenty four. Wow, yeah, let me it all up.

You don't know when it's all gonna not happen anymore, so.

We are, yeah, enjoy it could be our final New Year's Eve. I don't know what's happening fucking next year. I'm nervous. I feel like we're in this like weird.

Quai terriffs, like the terriffs, the terror problems. But I'm like, yeah, I guess I'll just keep going out to eat till I can't anymore. Yeah, when tomatoes are gonna be so so much? Yeah. Well, I also I obviously need to shout out you know, we're in the time Machine. But thanks everyone for coming to Cincinnati. It was fun. Someone gave me something. I'm just gonna show it to you and then your reaction, Okay, gonna be like part of I think, the excitement forever. Okay for me and everyone. Okay,

Oh my god? This is amazing. Okay, well I need you to take a picture of it and send it to me.

To put up.

Like basically, it's the Era's Tour, the classic eras tor shirt of Tailor, but it's John Munch and it's the eras of John Munch and that is so fucking good.

Wow.

Yeah, she's always pull out all the stuffs. You have really great gifts. It's amazing. Yeah, you're gonna love this one.

It's a bracelet and it says hogpat Men's top yarn.

Oh this is the riddle from from the Homeless Man.

Yeah. Yes, oh my god. Yes. And I don't expect any you know, it's always like just come to the show. It was like in an abandoned church. It was like super fun. I really loved being there and I ate the best chicken schnitzer I've ever had in my fucking life. At a place called Tuba's like if you were ever, I'm the Kentucky Cincinnati border. Holy fucking chip. Oh my god. But also someone made me ornaments that are each one

Love that, yes, because I every year break a ornament that is very dear to me, and this year was no exception. Just smashed one by accident. Yeah, when we were decorating the tree. It just fell, just fell off the tree and it hit a stool and it smashed into a million pieces.

You know, what are we gonna do? What are we gonna do? Wait?

I feel like I know we're in the time machine and you guys are gonna think this is so out of date, But you also are gonna be like, why have it you talked about this and we have to talk about Luigi. I mean, I don't buy it, like you don't buy what that it's him. Yeah, I think it's bigger.

I like he was doesn't look health and good at everything, and then had all the evidence on him in public, just in Pennsylvania, Like it makes no sense. Wait, girl, Also, I.

Don't think the guy they brought in, while he is very handsome, looks like the guy in the photos with the half the face covered. I don't really see the resemblance. And that's what I said yesterday. I go, this guy fucking got out of Manhattan. He got out of like such a busy city where everybody was looking for him. He ditched the backpack full of the monopoly money, he had the bullets, he had shit written on the bullets,

Right, Well, well, see, I don't think it's him. I don't. I hope it's not him. I want out more. I think I hope it's a decoy. But I wonder it is funny to like that you could see people's social media and like his Spotify and then he likes Carly Ray Jepsy. Yeah he I mean me and him have a lot in common. We love a happy meal, so it's like it's wild. I don't know. I like the jokes, but I guess it's serious. I don't know what's the thing. I don't know what I know. I'm all over the place.

I'm like, oh my god, like he just shot this man in broad daylight. But then also like insurance companies are evil, Like I don't know.

But I mean someone told me that their theory is that a wife hired a hitman, his wife wants to kill him and it's all fick. I was like, I'll get it done in New York.

It'll be wait and the wife is hooking up with Luigi. I just I was sad that they caught him because like, as we're recording this, they just caught him, And I was like, I really could have had this go on for a couple more weeks, Like I don't think anybody thought they were in danger. He's only going after CEOs, Like I you know, I would have loved to have seen a few more sightings, a few more high.

L Tuna Pennsylvania. Like for some reason, I just don't buy that he would be so out in the open and not like yeah, eleven for a McDonald's. Like, there's no fucking way. Yeah.

I was like, why don't you just put one of those like gator things over your face, like and like it's cold in Pennsylvania and go through the drive through? Like no one would even think about that, you know, Like I don't know if someone was like, pluck.

Your eyebrows, babe, I mean, I don't know. We'll see what happens. But also I guess in New Jersey there's like drones. There's like some sort of flying saucer things flying in the trees, and there's sightings and the government has confirmed it's something it might be hostile, like they're trying to claim it's aliens. I'm like, no, they're trying to see how much they could spy on us. I think, I mean the government's sending things. Oh my god, have

Oh well, they said that the fucking weather balloon that they found was China. You think it's like that kind of thing, or you think it's like it's coming from inside the house. It's like our government's buying.

I mean, it might be aliens or it's I think it's our government figuring out like how to do curfews eventually, or spy on people or emit a loud noise. Yeah, there was a loud noise. I mean, and Jersey's like asking for help.

New Jersey's like, can somebody help us figure this out? Wow? Wow, this is an hour ago. New Jersey senator calls for a limited state of emergency.

Jesus.

I mean, when this comes out, you guys will all know that the aliens have landed or whatever. But like I'm experiencing us in the time machine right now.

I don't want it. I mean, they're like, don't don't fuck with it. The aliens can be hostile, but it's like, I don't know, why would they just be chilling in Jersey in the trees like this so low to the ground, And how did no one shoot them down in Jersey? No One's like I got it, Like I just yeah, I don't get I don't get it. Yeah, did you see them at Melissa Gorga has released a line of sprinkle cookies. I did see that, lame get an identity

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Do you always go to the same place of course?

Yeah? Okay, yeah, yeah, you got a spot. Yeah yeah, I'll shot at Circo's pastry shop. And I love them so amazing.

I'm trying to think of like, yeah, Luigi has been really taking up a lot of my thoughts.

Well, I'm thinking fan like erotic fan fiction, like I would I bet there are people masturbating for sure, to the idea of like seeing him being like I'll hold you at the house and like, you know, giving it all and then you fall in love. I think there's a movie called Labor Day that's totally this. Yeah, I think I think that's the movie. Is it Casey it's Josh bah okay, and Kate Winslet knows he's a criminal

Like yes, and immediately everybody's like Ryan Murphy's salivating over this, like because he's and like you know, he did like the Versace murders.

It's like, way, I mean, did you see the Kiki Palmer thing. She didn't say who it was, but she's promoting her book and she did an interview on the set of Screen Queen. She's talking about how it's like toxic and crazy and how there was like distress on set, like people weren't getting along, and she did a thing where she was just like, hey, guys, like let's you know, like kumbayah kind of thing. You know, she's very inspirational, so she was just trying to like get good energy.

I feel like it is her because I feel like, when all the cancelation stuff about Liah Michelle came up, people were saying that she said microaggressive and aggressive stuff to Kiki on the set of Scream Queens, but we didn't have anything specific at the time. Yeah, so I think it's definitely Liah Michelle, but.

It's like Kaky don't, like I don't know it's like incredible. I'm loving all the press. I need to watch that.

I need to see that, like that video that hasn't come across. I'll be honest. My entire Explore page is wicked. It is still wicked. It's like wicked interviews. I'm obsessed with both Cynthia and Ariana coming out after and being like we didn't know what was going on either, with the woman talking about holding space, like I love that they're just like embracing how crazy that was them talking to this like sassy little girl who's like interviewing them and like taking pictures with that.

I don't know, I just I'm getting all the press. Still.

It's like it's like the movie's been out for two weeks and it's still fully flooding my timeline and I don't I'm not mad.

I love the choreography. I also think I might get into Arianna's album that came out this year. I really skipped it, but it's on all the top lists, like people really love it, so I think I gotta. And I've seen her lot. I mean, I love Ariana. The Golden Globe nominations came out. I hope she wins. I hope Wicked gets or the substance. I mean, there's just so much cool stuff here. Yeah.

I saw a clip of Demi Moore being really excited she got her nomination for Golden Globe.

I think that's so cute. Yeah, it's really a thrill. And I'm excited to see Nicki Glazer host. I think she's gonna kill it. Like yeah, I think it's like decades of prep has hit this moment of hopefully killing it. I mean people notoriously bomb, you know.

Yeah, but I think Nikki also is like you have to have that like good line of like self deprecating but also confidence, and I think she has that, whereas Joe Cooy went in being like I'm one of you, I'm awesome.

Yeah, and I don't think it works out for him.

And so I think, like, yeah, I think she'll I think she'll nail it probably. I mean this is her year, right, best year of her life, the Roast, the Globes, it's all happening.

Cool. I can't wait. Yeah, Yeah, I'm into this Award season. I saw some I mean, yeah, the songs, we'll see, we'll see what goes down. Yeah.

Should we get started with the episode I can't believe that we're doing this episode after a nationwide manhunt just started in our area, in our country.

I know.

Well. I was talking to someone and they're like, do you think this is just like a big deal because we're in New York. I go, nah, honey, this isn't this is big news.

No, we're all looking and you know what's crazy too, It's like it's bringing people together. Like Ben Shapiro tried to release like like an episode of his podcast where he was like, the bloodthirsty liberal elite are are like celebrating the murder of this man, and all these people underneath are like, nope, I'm a conservative and I'm celebrating it. Like all these people are like, nope, it's all of us.

It it really is. But I was like going off on a friend's pot and he was like, you're you're having a special come out. Relax. He's like stop talking like this. I'm like, I want blood in the streets. You're like this has to be after your special.

Wait are you are you allowed to announce.

I'm sure it's gonna come out January twenty eighth, So put it on your like reminders or notifications and watch it. I definitely want people to watch it. But also you can put it on as you leave the house, so.

Yeah, that's the thing. And then as soon as you're done watching it, start it up and go out put it on you keep it on an app running on your phone. We'd love it to get the no we wanted to be.

We want it to.

Let's let's all rally, let's all watch it. It would be awesome for it to, like, you know, be one of the hot comedy specials coming out on Netflix. I'm so excited to see it. What are you calling it? It's called night Owl. Okay, I thought that's what I thought, but I didn't want to say the wrong thing. Night Owl, Lisa Tragger exciting. I can't wait. So yeah, this comes out the thirty first, so it'll be coming out like four weeks later. Okay, Well that's so great. All right,

I hope it's fun, chill, safe, positive and yeah.

And yeah, hopefully you're listening to this while you get ready to go out to a fun party or you get ready to sit your ass on the couch and just do nothing.

And uh yeah, thanks.

For another year of listening to our pod and being cool and you guys are the best. I don't know, I don't have any resolutions stacked up yet. No, it's only surviving. Yeah, yeah, survival, that's all we're trying to do.

Then getting it in. But happy new Year to all of you.

Yes, done done, Happy New Year to all.

And then let's get started with today's epp.

Okay, we are doing today nationwide Manhunt, which is season seventeen, episode fourteen, and does connect to two episodes we covered recently, Devil's Dissections and criminal Pathology.

So if you're glad you have those long fucking war enlightenings. That's too many words for only three episodes, and they're not in a row, right, they like bounced around? No, they know, like those are at the beginning of the season, I think.

And then now we're like, you know, like fourteen episode, thirteen episodes later or something, and we're following up and yes, Lisa did right in our it's Hulu thirteen.

Ugh, because if you watch on Hulu.

They make The Devil's dis Sections of Criminal Pathology one episode, so these are all off but this is episode fourteen.

Just check if you're watching on Hulu anyway. We have done the episode the next yes, yeah, we have Doank Abraham one pip A Coox.

Oh, and the one after this is also yeah, so if you start watching that, you'll be like, they already did this one.

Seventeen has a lot. Wanna say, I've watched this one. I feel like so much because I watched it to get ready for What's Muggsy Caine? What's Kevin Kane? Yeah, so that's like his handle, so like so like I've watched it for him, and then we had Rudnick on. I watched all of his episodes. So I feel like for some reason, I have watched this so much that I was second guessing when I put it on. I was like, yeah, I already do this, or do we make a huge mistake? But that's done. It not so weird.

But also I feel like there's a weird Mandela effect or something with our podcast where people will be like, I feel like you've covered this episode. Haven't you covered this episode? And I'm like, we haven't. You know, it's like when you think you can't believe it's Barren Stain Bears instead of Berenstein Bear, you know, like, I don't know Mandela effect, but that happens a lot. But this is Yeah, this is a good one.

So a lot of heavy hitters, a lot of crossover. I mean, it's really like a busy episode so much. In fact, it is a Chicago PD crossover. So I do.

I will give you guys the full synopsis at the end of the Charicago PED episode very quickly. Not a full recap, but so this episode, we open on the kitchen of someone who has been hard at work. Okay, my kitchen does not look like this. The counter is covered in an ingredients, sauce is spilled, spices are returned.

Someone is pulling all my I do have to say, you know, how I mentioned the dish podcasts and how I was like, love you. We've been getting a lot of comments from listeners. I love it. I've been getting all these messages. This broadcaster someone wrote to me. They're like the way you talked about him. I looked him up. He's a national treasure. He has over a million followers. He's like Britain's little broadcasting angel with the BBC for decades. And I was like, oh, who's this little podcaster? It

Well, I got to listen to that because or watch the shorts. I guess everybody is so into it that has.

Been writing us.

But anyway, these people they should have next, they should have this next character on their podcast, because she is pulling a delicious lasagna out of the oven. And when we get a look at her, it is none other than Bronwyn Freed, who we you remember her as Bronwin Freed. Now she's Bronwin Freed Wilkins. We'll get into it later and you may remember her. We met her in season fifteen.

I mean, this is her whole night.

This lady is having a time like uh and they had an edible.

Yeah, yeah, she had an edible.

She's probably got a podcast on, and she is making a little lasagna filled with treats. So we cut to Benson on the phone with the Chicago PD guy with like the insanely gravelly voice named.

Voight who's always like Benson, you.

Know, and she's telling him, oh, well, Yates is saying he can id some of the bones that we found in Pelham Bay, and he's saying that they're Midwestern runaways and he wants to talk to Rollins about it, but Benson's like, I don't want her my bestie playing Chlorice Starling anymore. And basically she's like, so could you send your hot detective over here aka Aaron Lindsay who is Sophia Bush of One Tree Hill Fame and now Chicago p D Fame. I guess, And she still hasn't forgiven

Working at the police department.

So anyway, we cut to green Haven Correctional Facility, which is a real prison.

I feel like, yeah, they do use real prisons.

It's a real prison where Yates is looking at photos of bones and you know, obviously looking horny as hell, Like as soon as he sees any dead body torture pictures, he's like, oh my god, he's so hot for it. He says, the girls were driven from Chicago.

That's actually how he got found Gil right, didn't he get too horny on the stand looking at the mountain?

They basically yeah, they basically.

Lured him the slam dunk.

Yeah, they lured his hormone monster out of him with like photos of tortured dead girls and he was like, yes, so that is the big slim dunk. And he says the girls from Chica were driven were you know, the way he talks when he's talking to the cops is all like hypothetical. He's like, well, yeah, these girls were probably driven from Chicago to he says that bleak Bronx boneyard, and I like the alliteration. I mean you can say that a lot of times fast, like bleak Bronx Boneyard.

Rises up again.

He says, well, they probably didn't look like this when their killer met them, when they were at a truck's stop, pouring themselves out for cocaine, and I like, I don't remember Yates having this like sir vibe. Yeah, exactly, like a moral high ground. Like I thought he just kind of killed because he was like a lust killer and like they compare him to Ted Bundy a lot. I didn't think he was, Like I disagree with their lifestyle,

He's like, oh, is it a boy or a girl?

He's like so excited and it's so creepy how excited he is, Like this Dallas Roberts is a great actor, and he's like, well, if you want closure for these families, get Rollins here by tomorrow. So he's got a deadline. Okay, he wants to talk to this new mom bad. Now we're at the credits and at the precinct. Rollins is like, I told you I should have gone, like, I'm the Yates whisperer, and it's the whole gang. It's Rowins, Benson, Careese, Baby Dodds, plus our two Chicago PD gal and guy,

It's like crazy that they would do this, so true.

Stop and Aaron. Lindsay is two first names. It's very she has a very hot girl. That's a very hot girl name, I feel. But we have four women who went missing around the time that Yates was living in Chicago, and one of the girls was actually a patient at his urgent care. And Lindsay's like, well he seemed to recognize her. I'm like, I don't know. He was kind of getting a mutual boner for all of the women in the photos.

I never really saw any recognition.

But Dodds is like, but he's a pealing his cases, like why would he confess to more crimes?

And Rollins is like.

You guys are fucking idiots, Like only I know how to handle serial killers. He never confesses. You got to keep the conversation hypothetical. And then he fills in the rest. I mean, she's acting like it's she's like a full like profiler. It's like, I don't really think that's that crazy of a tactic. Benson could probably do it too. So Benson caves and is like, fine, Rowins can go, but Caries you're going with. And Rolinds was like, no, let me go alone, and Benson's like no, like we've

He volunteers, he's a model inmate.

And Cariese's like, that's kind of strange for a guy who's never getting parole, right, she goes, I don't know. Sometimes the lifers get zen and try to make the best of it, or they want to get a transfer upstate. So now CARESI tells Rolins like see he chomed the Warden, classic sociopath classic, and dude, it's like, this is why she won't sleep with you, Like she knows you don't need to. Man's plain serial killers to this mindhunter bitch, you know, like she you don't need to be Like

He's just like a perv. And then like he like explaining games and so it's like a way to fuck with people, and Rollins makes it feel unsafe and uneasy, yeah, because they're so vulnerable, like man that he's in tune, you know, he's he like felt that she was pregnant before she even told anyone.

Yeah, he could like smell the pheromones or something like a little freak.

Yeah, totally so gross.

So Carisi interrupts to be her white Knight, but she calls him off. She's like, it's okay, Creesy, and then she winks at Yates. I had to rewind it like three times. She does a full wink at Yates. She's shameless, Okay, I know she's using every tool in that slutty little.

Toolbox of hers.

And he he was like, I was hurt that you tried to send the Chicago detectives in your place. And then they give him more photos and again Boner City immediately, and one woman he suggests, well, she might be out.

She's not in New York.

She might be out near a truck stop near where she went missing, quote unquote, waiting in the weeds. So this is how he gives his little hints where he never confesses, but he gives you information. Others he says, are possibly in Pelham Bay, but you know you have to get to give It's very Hannibal Lecter Quinn pro quot doctor. And he wants to be transferred to Honor Block, which is what it sounds like. It's like where all the goody goodies get to go in prison, and Dodds

So let's see if the warden will approve it.

And the warden goes, well, we can offer solitary and they're like, well, Yanes is afraid he's going to go crazy, And I'm like, why would solitary be a reward for anyone, Like I think, isn't that where you go when you're doing bad and they want you to keep you away from everybody and make you go nuts and be friends with a cockroach Like I don't know, I don't know why they thought that. She thought that would be like a counteroffer, but they thought of She's like, we actually thought of.

Transferring him to Honor Block.

But Rudnick is there, and you know, I've heard they have history, and then they start chatting about the history, which we all know, and she goes, well, this could be a ploy for Yates to get revenge on Rudnick, and Rollins is like, listen, babe, if that's what Yates wanted, it would have happened already. And the Warden's like, well, we'll ask Rudnick about it, and Carsey goes, well, if

But he's like, yeah, yeah, I saw that.

I'm trying to cut back, and they shake hands, like they shake hands like this man is not an absolute cold blooded killer who I will remind everyone cut a woman up while she was alive and thank you for the reminder. Yeah, just so you know, it's like, we

Like, why not. Why does everyone keep saying that I'm.

Just flirting and winking at a serial rapist and a brutal, blood thirsty murderer, Like what's the problem. And Rollins tries to compare like her Yates thing with Cariese's Rudnick thing, and Rudnick's like, I just like talking to the guy, Like it's a little bit different. I'm not like a winking at him, you know, and spraying my pheromones all

What I want to know, I mean, Yates can smell if someone's pregnant. I think he could tell if there's a plan being something going on.

That's true, that's true, but he reads Why did Rudnick say yes? If Rudnick had just said no, Yates wouldn't be bothering him, if he'd been like, oh, I can't no, Like they went to Yate Rudnick and they were like, is it okay with you?

If Yates comes here?

And he goes, yeah, I can handle that pedestrian psychopath or whatever, And it's like, if you had just said no, he wouldn't be in your grill and bothering you.

You know.

Yeah, that's why it's a little confusing. But because I thought it was all they were all in on it together. But you find out kind of later that it's not that, oh, you're right, redneck is like, what you're here? But he didn't Yeah, but you did say it was okay. So anyway, top of that two, now it's Benson and baby Dodds rolling up to green Also, Bronwyn could have just told Yates too, well, yes, yes, that's right. We I think we find that out later that that is what happened

If Yates wants to stay on a honor block, he better spill.

Okay inside the uh Barba is there as well, and Benson goes, I didn't know Uber came to green Haven, which is like I feel like it's like a funny dig, like he can't drive himself anywhere or whatever.

But I think maybe Uber was fancy and twenty fifteen, Like I yeah, I like, how is that a dig? Really?

Like I yeah, because I mean it's like he wouldn't have taken the train and he wouldn't have driven in a police car because he's like too bougie.

I don't really know.

I don't really know what's up, but like basically I looked up green Haven and it is like an hour and a half north of Manhattan, so you know that's a that's a pricey uber ride, and Barbara just goes, promise me, you won't stop for food until we get back to the city.

Like he's so boogie.

He's like, how dreadful eating in the Hudson Valley.

No, but yeah.

Green Haven is ninety minutes north of the city in Duchess County, and Dodds, Barba, and Benson are now all waiting to meet with Yates, and the warden says, oh, we're just clearing the yard and like that, like and you know, the first night on the block with Rudnick and Yeates together was all good, no problems. So then Dodds attempts to kiss ass by being like, oh, my dad says hi like he pulls the daddy cart and the warden barely gives a shit. She does not even

I want to talk to serial killers and no one will let me.

And uh and also like I don't know, I did not I never had postpartum. I think it's a little bit more serious than taking melowtnin. I don't think you can just be like I just need to get some sleep. It's like a little bit more like chemical than that. And Rollins says Yates is gonna feel ganged up on up there, and like he's gonna be mad at me for pulling a bait and switch on him, Like she's

It's such a funny way, like it's.

You should go back and listen to it, Like he just is dead like when he's saying this line. So back in Manhattan, Lindsay is hanging up the phone with Voight and he's like, She's like, want he wants us back in Chicago.

Our little New York City boondoggle is over.

And Dawson's like, we should at least wait and find out what Yates has to say. It feels like he has Hamilton tickets and he does not want to leave. So back at the prison, the CEOs are doing a very chill check of the cells, like there no one is running, no one is like where are they? And guess what, Yates and Rudnick are still missing. No one has been concerned about it, really, They ask jose the guy with the jacket, uh, snuggling the jacket and he's like,

And then he's like, they'll kill.

Me if I talk, and he goes, I don't know anything, but he clearly does, and then he kind of glances towards that Switzerland poster that I mentioned earlier, and then the CEO puts his hand through the Switzerland poster in a move right out of Shawshank redemption, and there.

Is a huge hole in the wall.

And I just think movie posters need to be outlawed after a Shawshank redemption, Like you just can't have them in jail, like you killed someone, you don't get to core, Like that's that has to be the rule, because they just keep building holes through the posters. So the warden breaks the news to Benson, Barbara, and Baby about Rudnik and Yates being missing, and it becomes really quickly clear that they have escaped.

And Dodds is like, well, they must have had help.

So now Benson's talking to Jose and he's like and Jose immediately goes, yo, I heard about what you went through with William Lewis. That was fucked up, That wasn't right. He was a bad man, and it's like, what did Jose do. He's like a little sweetie buye. He's like, I'm so sorry about your ordeal with the other serial killer, like that was really wrong.

And then they tell Jose so funny that like they have gossip in the prison. I know.

They're like, you've heard about that, that was fucked Like you know you don't do that. So they tell Jose like listen, we'll get and she is a gay icon, like.

I could just see him wanting to butter up Benson. Yes, so true.

But Jose is scared of Yates and Rudnick, like he's scared of them, and they're like, listen, we'll get you transferred, just like tell us what's going on. And he's like, okay, it's been a few months.

I don't know.

He must have gotten the tools somehow. He worked at night. He told me to shut my eyes and pretend to sleep or else he wouldn't take me with him. So poor Jose was supposed to be on the ride out of the jail, but he got left behind with his blankye, and he tells them Rudnick didn't plan on Yates going, but Yates insisted that he was going, and Rudnick caved. And now they're talking to the warden and Benson's like, jose told them that these guys knew how to breach

And uh, the.

Warden goes, yes, we sealed we we welded up all the manholes, we checked all the access points. Like this guest who directed that mini series? I think Ben Stiller. Yeah, yes, I don't know how I knew that. It was like nominated for all these awards.

And I want to awards. I want a bunch nominated for a bunch. I don't know where I've been, never even heard of it, Like, oh, did not know it was a thing at all? Well, I don't know why I was so disconnected. I'm usually it was an.

HBO movie, like it wasn't like a movie that came out in theaters or anything. It was like an HBO movie or TV. Is it a series, it's amazing series. It's a mini series. Yeah, like like five or six episodes or something. Yeah, it was HBO. But I only heard about it when it won all the awards, Like that was only That's.

Like the only reason I know about the Stiller parks. I think I remember on stage. I just think about Patrici shark Head in a the act. Yeah, I haven't seen that yet. But she really goes she really takes fucked up parts and smashes it.

Yeah, she's awesome. Oh, Casey's pointing out it was Showtime. Sorry, rip Showtime. It was on Showtime. One of the last things they squeezed out before they completely collapsed.

Does a network.

So yeah, she's telling them everything's sealed up. This is a lock box. There's no way they got out of here. Like, there's somewhere. She keeps saying there's somewhere in here. They're in the interior of the prison somewhere. And then Dodds clocks this like steam pipe and he's like, what's this. She's like, it's a steam pipe and He's like, well, it's not hot. And so it turns out the electric company was doing repairs on it last night for a

He probably bribed someone to unseal it.

And I love the idea of him just being like, dear cousin, please go into the bank account and then I need you to go unsealed. This great outside my prison in Upstate New York, and they find a note that says I think I'll miss you most of all, Scarecrow, which we didn't even we didn't even choose that in the season of Wicked. Right now, but you know, you can't escape Wicket at the moment, so a little Wizard

This green color.

And just as the warden is like where's the Conell crew, baby, Dodds pipes up and he's like, we got a body over here, and sadly there is a poor electrical worker lying there with a snapneck, and they're like, well, these guys work in twos, where's his partner? Meanwhile, the warden is suspicious of Rollins. She goes, so he escapes right after your detective pushes to get him on honor block.

This has been planned for months.

This says that like Rollins was literally like on maternity leave, pushing a baby out while this was being planned, Like, she's not the one we're after here. And meanwhile, they've been slowly lowering one of those bucket things that electrical workers work in, and when they look inside, you guessed it another guy with a snapneck who works for the electrical company. And then I think, Barbara goes they killed the guys who helped them escape, and I'm like, I don't.

And guess what.

The last time they were seen was six am, and they have a nine hour head start, so they could be anywhere. The Warden's like, get Rollins up here. So Rollins is gonna get her wish again. She's gonna get another trip to green Haven, so, oh my god. Act three opens up with New York City Legend. New York one News anchor Pat Kiernan. I love this guy so much. He's he I think still is but was forever an NY one News anchor, which is like York New York City's like local news channel.

And this credit.

He has so many credits because he plays himself in so many TV shows and movies, but this credit's not on his IMDb, which is crazy. He also hosted a show I was obsessed with called The World Series of Pop Culture because I thought I could be on it, but I was no way good enough to be on it. And he's reporting on the nationwide man hunt. Drink for the name of the show of the episode, and it's you know. They show pictures of run Nick and Yates

They need these two Chicago people.

So now the warden is leading a huge team of people made up of like cops, FBI, state troopers. Like it's huge. It's like a massive task force or whatever. And guess who she turns it over to hit to friend of the pod, Kevin Kane, who we talked about before. He is the most he I think has the most characters ever played on U s for you like, and he's some kind of state police captain here and you know,

Besides Feris Buehler like that's number two for me? Is the Future VI in terms of Chicago? Yeah, yeah, movies, those are my top two. Yeah.

Sure, people like the Dark Night, but I just I haven't seen it. So Kevin Kane asks Barbara, how bout are these guys? And Barbara goes, think Ted Bundy and Robert Durst on the run together, which good one. Now Benson and Rollins are grilling jose On like who would have helped them?

Who? How did they get out?

And he doesn't want to talk, and he goes cause I like her, And then obviously we know where this is going.

He gives up bron Win Freed Wilkins.

She teaches their conflictunt Transformation class, but I think he just calls her missus Wilkins. Okay, so I'm about lasagna and they're like, what about the CEO's And he's like, the CEO's like the lasagna too, And then.

A CEO is like they're talking to with CEO.

And he goes, yeah, I just I didn't know there was anything in there. I thought it was just lasagna. And they're like, you didn't run it through the metal detector, and he goes she asked if I could hand check it. She didn't want those cancer rays to hit her lunch. They give you cancer, like it's like so funny, like you walk through a metal detector every day, but your lunch can't. Like I don't know. The CEO wants his rep. He's like, I'm not talking anymore. I know I fucked

Hearsay, do you want to try this LASAGNYA yeah, everybody's going gog offer this lasagna. It's letting people completely lose their jobs. But Benson, here's the name Bronwyn and is like, alarm bells right. She goes, wait, her name is Bronwyn, and then the warden goes, yeah, bron Win Wilkins. But she got married last month and when she became Wilkins, she was Bronwin freed before Benson is like what in

You fucking and like they can't Like Rollinson's like, we can't even get into this right now. But like she's like, isn't she flagged at rikers? And the Warden's like sure, but that's city. We're state, so they won't even communicate with each other.

I know how bad the warden is, but doesn't care, Like this is like the worst warden we've ever seen. She is so on the floor. She's so flighty. Yeah, she's like I I mean usually they're like sticklers or asked, you know, I'm the warden, and this she's just like, oh, come on.

She doesn't seem upset at all that two fucking serial killers have just escaped her prison. I mean, you could lose your job, right, isn't that kind of like on your watch that this happened?

Like he does not chill man.

She took an edible before work, she or she had them hand check her bag and she's got her edibles in there, okay, because she's not she's not caring, okay, And Rollins is like, I'm done playing games and she tells the she like yells at the ward and she's like, I'm done with this little like ditsy Warden routine cough up an address. So now they're at Bronwin's residence, which is in Stormville, New York, where green Haven actually is,

She had an.

Emergency, she took my car. And that's that guy's that's a wrap on Bronwin's husband. That's all we see from him. We don't get him anymore. They track down the vehicle. The dogs picked up the scent, but like they of the two guys, but they've ditched the car. Caresy finds a prison jumpsuit, a dress and a wig in a dumpster, and then liv goes, now, the question is where's Rudnick's body? And I'm like, I don't know why you assume Rudnick is dead. That's a weird line for me. The dog

Them since before noon. Please help me.

Please help me, And no one has any fucking love for her. Benson snarls. She's like, get her out of here, like they don't care about this woman. And now we're getting a summary from a different New York One reporter Cheryl Wills on TV. She's explaining the two fugitives had a female accomplice. At the state Police, Rollins and Barbara are questioning Bronwyn and she's like, listen, I was working

She has a lot of anger towards me. It's like, yes, lol, you were.

Basically in love with the man that gave her like the worst drama of her life, so yeah, she doesn't love you. And then Benson is arguing with Bronwyn and she's like, no, Rudnick is a man and lives like he chopped a woman into pieces. And bron Win's like, I don't know that Rutnick. I don't know that side of him, and Rollin says like, listen, I'm sure he was nice to you. But then Benson is like, girl, they left you to die in the trunk of a car.

Barba tells her, you're looking at felony chargers.

Girl, just give us everything, okay, So that the squad gets some traffic camstills of two little ladies on a road trip, and you got it, it's Rudnick and Yates. Somebody I think it's Greasi goes, yeah, two women in a suber who's not going to raise any flags. And I do feel like this is a lesbian joke, like a quiet lesbian joke, because you know, it is a

I know it's crazy, like Garfield's favorite episode, I really so true said.

You have to take a shot of Marnera every time I say lasagna in this episode. Okay, So she told Yates the Rudnick escape plan and she's like, I had to or he said he was going to kill my husband and boins him go boints, sorry, I'm like on drugs today, Benson points out, is funny.

Because I was saying Benson points.

At the same time Boinson points and points out he's in prison and your husband is thirty miles away. How exactly were you feeling a direct threat to your husband's safety? And Bronman goes, you know that when Yates wants something violent to happen, he finds a way, and she's not wrong, like he does get shit done in terms of U yes, but exactly. But I think she was like, I'm looking after my husband. I had to get I had to give him what he wanted or he was going to find a way to kill my husband.

So it's like, do you even love your husband? You love Rudnick?

Who cares about Kyle. He's at home meeting your lasagna, watching fucking Nascar. You love Rudnick. So we cut to a nasty crime scene. Okay, a female state trooper is on the ground, like you know, underwear around her ankles, which obviously is telegraphing the rape.

And she was murdered.

She's covered in blood and she'd been called because a neighbor saw smoke coming out of the chimney. But the owners are never there in the winter, so the neighbor you know, called the cops and that this trooper showed up and unfortunately Yates was there, or maybe both of them, So the call to the police was an hour ago, so they must be close.

They also left a trail of blood.

Dawson is making sure Lindsey's okay, but she looks very shook, and he's like, don't worry, we're gonna get him. So they follow the blood trail and it leads to the water like a lake, and we're all at this lake. Now it's raining, it's dark, it looks cold as fuck, like we're in bubble fuck New York. Like this is not where anybody wants to be. Right now, they've got someone in a parked boat that they've detected on the

Everybody shoot at the boat. It's wild.

CA's like stop, stop, like this man is my best friend.

I'm going to go talk to him, and he yells we have history.

So he approaches the boat and he tells Rudnick like he's approaching the boat, going I want you to live, I want you to walk out of here, and then he pulls back the tarp and Rudnick is covered in blood. Shaking, and then the camera kind of finds his leg and it looks bent in a weird way. I couldn't really see what was going on, but he's thanking creasy.

He's like, thank you, caresy.

So now we're back to New York one and Pat Kiernan is telling us that Rudnick has been apprehended and has suffered a lot of injuries and was rushed to the hospital. Yates is still at large. They show a map with this is hilarious. They show a map with little red pins for all the sightings that people have called in for Yates, and they're all over the country. And then they just put a massive question mark over the top of the United States and it's like, very

I just wanted to leave the country and live a life.

Of peace, and Careese is holding Rudnick's hand and he goes, Yates only wanted one thing, revenge. And then he's like, well, where were you headed on the river and he goes Wellesley Island. Cariesy pulls his hand out of redneck's hand so fastive make your head spin.

He's like, get your hands off of me. We're not friends anymore.

And then Benson finally gets Dodds on the line and she's like, all right, we know where they're headed.

We're headed to Wellesley Island or whatever. You guys come back.

Lindsay and Dodds are driving in the dark rain on some you know, deserted country roads and he's like, all right, let's head back and Lindsay's like, no way, dude, I'm not doing that. And he's like, come on, like, we gotta go back. That's what the boss said. I'm a daddy's boy and I do what I'm told. And she goes, well, I'll drop your ass at a rest stop because I'm not going like her mission is to find yates, you know.

And the guy like he honestly just.

Keeps topping himself like the noose like this, listen like the he's like he's like a jigsaw over here with these different ideas. He ends up uh. He confesses all

But that is that.

And I know that you're gonna give us all the juice on the true crime because and I'm excited because I don't really know that much, all.

Right, So I mean it's like frame by frame, I would say, it is, yeah, so exact, and like I can't even believe it, but this, and like you said, it was a famous mini series. People talk about this.

I was in New York when it was happening, so it was on the news everywhere, Like I remembering, like, fuck, there's these two guys on the loose, Like I didn't think they were gonna come to New York City. I wasn't like worried really, but I was like, fuck, well because I forgot.

But I was talking to someone and I was like talking about the the jail break one that I was watching on Netflix or Hulu or whatever, about the woman falling in love and driving off and stuff. And someone was like, oh, escape from Danamoora. And I was like no, and they're like, yeah, it is, and I'm like, no, it's not. Stuff I hate. I hate when people argue with me about things I know more than them. On

I was thinking that same thing when I was like, why are all these serial killers and people always trying to get to Canada? They're going to give you back, Like we're in a good spot with Canada, you know.

Like yeah, my big thing is like get a boat and go to an island, but I guess that's a big journey, but like go to international waters. Well, you know what's interesting.

I just caught up on the whole new season of SVU, and I don't know if you've heard about the season. The fall finale is Careese gets kind of involved in a hold up in a bodega and the guy are like where can we go? And Kreese's telling them all the places they can go that don't have extradition. So like these guys were thinking, they were like where can

So so wild. It's like baby Australia's are being born everywhere. Yeah, towns of criminals. So the guy's names are Richard Matt and David Sweat.

But oh my god, yes, what I just remember the name David Sweat.

I remember the name David Sweat. It sounds like a pop star for in the Substance Universe. Yeah. Yeah. And then Richard Matt is confusing because Matt is a first name, so it's but whatever, Matt and Sweat they are both serving time for murder. So Matt was serving twenty five years to life because he kidnapped and beat a man to death in nineteen ninety seven. This was his former employer, a seventy six year old man, and Matt fucking tortured him and chopped up his body with a hack saw.

I literally just look this up for the other episode that we're about to record. Capital murder is like first degree murder, but you capital murder includes killing multiple people, killing, law enforcement killing, and with capital murder, there's no chancefer pearl.

Okay, great, yeah, we got that. We got that answered quick. And obviously, you know, him murdering the deputy made me think of the Bob Marley song that I don't understand never will. Okay, you know you're still serving life, babe. So but yeah, they also don't look like friends, like if you see their photos, they look very different. And so I'm I'm so curious about their relationship. And there is a whole report. So it's very the Fox and

Have you ever seen escape from Alcatraz? Like there's like so many like just the clever like ways that they because they've got nothing but time to think about.

How to get out, you know. Yeah, it's kind of like when you're on Survivor that all they do is talk about the foods they want to eat yea when they leave. So they are very different. And this report

Like why are we giving a frozen Yeah, but they have a sense it's a pre k it's a pre cooked item.

What is frozen meat? Yeah? And they use the tools, obviously to cut through the back of their cells, then a brick wall into a steam pipe. They slithered through and emerged outside the walls through a manhole, so like very svo.

But they must have had to do the same thing of like knowing when the steam pipe was going to be off or on, because it's like if you get caught in a steam pipe, like you're gonna you'll burn up like that.

Yeah, now that like I had that incident with my radiator where like the nozzle went off and the steam was just pushing through it hurt. It was so hot and like intense, Like I did keep thinking about burning, yeah, and one of the steam pipes. That was going through my mind a lot. And then they left behind clothing in their beds, so it look like they were there

Escape from Alcatraz as well. In escape from Alcatraz, he makes a full plaster mold of his head and paints it and everything.

Yeah wow, and like okay, like you said, they have to like study all this, So Sweat climbed out of his cell over eighty five times to like dig the things, do the things that go through it all, and that in all of this time, that means there was four hundred required checks and no one was ever able to catch him. Wrote like Bill, sawing through the prison walls. He eighty five times. And so then there's notes. So

See want tona Ho. That's the whole point of shosh anng retemption. They want to go to Zeewat Naho in Mexico. Oh yeah, and so, but Joyce was safe.

So she actually checked herself into a hospital with a case of the nerves and claiming that she had chest pain. And this for sure saved her life. Like they would have killed her eventually, you know what I mean. Yeah, Okay, so they escape, they are gone for twenty two days. That is humiliating. You have fifteen hundred officers and it took you that long. I just think that's so embarrassing.

A week there'd be like a full sweep of your cell to make sure no holes or whatever are being.

Oh my god, it's gonna get better and better. I can't wait. Okay. So, and I think that's why we cheer on prison breaks. It's because it is embarrassing to the like all to the system. Okay, but you know it is a whole community is scared. They're in their homes. They're like uh oh, and people are forced out of their homes so searches can happen. Also told not to leave their house. Also, like what if they're hiding in

So she cocked her husband pretty bad, huh, Like at work, Come on, man, that's humiliating for him.

Crazier it gets easier. I'm like' so what I mean? I mean, obviously these people are murderers, but it's hard not to like, like, I mean, it is an easy day in the office for us personally, like in terms of cases like this is right nice, you know, yeah, so you know, two and a half weeks go by June twenty six, police get reports of shots fire near Route thirty and a driver of an RVs had bullet holes inside of his camper. So then there's a sighting

That's only like twenty five minutes from where I grew up twenty or thirty.

Yeah, we have a lot of prisons, I guess in the tri state situation. She was also then supervised in Franklin County until June twenty twenty two. She also had to give up her teaching certificate. Maybe she was a tailor teacher, but the plea deal, she needs to know, not teach anyone anything. She went back to her house that she shared with her husband, and Lyle Mitchell visited his wife every other weekend. Throughout her sentence.

Oh maybe he like knew that she was just such a suggestible person and like felt bad for her, like because she got manipulated because she just doesn't have any.

I don't know. Oh Man anyway, So now Sweat almost right away after being captured, started bragging to the cops. He's like, this was all my idea. But his friend is dead, so we don't actually know anything, Like his friend in cohort is dead, and so this gossip he just started chatting. So a lot of what comes after this is like what he's told us, which I don't know if it's true or not. But because he was

Oh yeah, it's the opposite. Okay, it's the opposite, And is Matt okay?

Yeah, yes, It's really actually hard for me to keep them straight because I was just like, oh, yeah, so she was fucking that guy interesting, you know, like.

But also because you were like saying that, you were saying that like Sweat was like the one that's like more competent and it's gregarious, and that to me is like a Benicio rather than a Paul.

Dano, you know. Or is that what Matt was? Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. It's like it really like I had to keep checking photos and making sure which ones witch in my head and mixing them up throughout this then direity of this whole thing, like I cannot keep it straight. It's a Mandela effect in true action, Like I am forgetting their faces and names as I've gone, so you can watch more. Never even heard of this show,

I remember I cannot believe how long they've been gone, for like three weeks. Like I just don't get how they were, like I guess, yeah, like sneaking into cabins and shit, I just don't get how they were like surviving, like.

They're eating they took stuff with them, so like they had I didn't put this in me. They took a bunch of pepperoni sticks, they had a bunch of granola bars, and there was like one other snack that they they had with back piling. Wow.

Yeah, so they had food with them, and yeah, that's such a good question. I really wonder what they were saying to each other when they came out and she wasn't there, Like your.

Little girlfriend didn't pick us up? Like fuck, I know, such a different Yeah, I so many sliding door moments, so interesting, but yeah, you fucked it up. Now you're in solitary, Like I don't I mean, I hope I'd never have to be in prison, so I don't know. It must suck. But this prison seemed pretty good. Yeah, like, well good for an inmate, because they that's what I mean. Yeah, yeah, like you're getting big max, Like this woman is having sex with you. The guards aren't even putting you through

I saw some video that popped up on my Twitter before I quit Twitter that was like literally a female corrections officer fucking up uh inmate. Like it's like just like a fully pornographic video of them having sex and his sound mate is taking the video and she's not telling him to stop. But they're in like a room that has bunk beds. They have tons of stuff. I

I think. I think if you're serving that long, like with commissary, and then you have jobs and yourn money, you can get stuff you can have. Yeah, yeah, because I've seen that before, and not just in Oz, like because there's TikTok prison prison videos that's bustin' and they'll make like recipes and then at the end they'll taste sim be like that's bustin' or not bustin', and how bustin'

But yeah, I mean like I feel like sweat or wait, I'm sorry, which one got killed Mat exactly?

It's like crazy to kid. Yeah, and I don't know why.

Matt was probably like, yeah, I'm not putting my hands up, like I don't want to go back, just like kill me, you know, right, like you knew he wasn't gonna get away. But that's kind of I mean, that's kind of like what Yates did, I guess in the end of that Chicago Pet episode. Anyway, We've got a great guest, so don't go anywhere. Our guest this week is an actor and podcaster. She most recently starred in the mini series Fleischmann Is in Trouble. She can be seen on The

Yeah, we've been corresponding with did I write you when you announced your show?

Well right away to you on the artist formerly known as Twitter a lot about us, how we were going to have you one day and we.

Just had for the right moment. Yeah, the fork in the road and is we don't want to watch those episodes. They're horrifying, So like the William Bullis episodes are the most scary. And so it was like, we'll take our time. And then because this is kind of a two parter, we had to get you know, yeah, like what did we get Rednick or Yeah, we got ra first, we got Dallas, then we had to get Jefferson Mays, and then we got you for Niche. Man, it's what works out,

People don't know how the sausage is made. But you know, I'm like, I'm honored. I'm honored to be considered in their company.

Are you kidding? Yeah, it's I mean, you must get stopped on the streets of New York, Like there's no way you just go through life with oh mention, I just can't imagine. It depends.

It depends on the glasses I'm wearing and I'm realizing these glasses are a little bit like those glasses where it depends on like sort of what I look like and what it can usually tell when things are airing, because then people are like, hey, and yeah.

This is this is so silly.

But like I think when I started to have like a reasonable understanding of what was possible for me as an actor, I was like, I would kind of like to be that person you can sort of you can't quite place. It's like inscrutable. Did you go to high school with them? Yeah, and that is kind of where

Yeah, we've already had She's already let one major guy out.

Let's let this. I mean there are types that you've got hired again at the person, I mean, at a person it's like yeah, I know, I know.

I'm like, man, she got crafty after that after that first instance.

Well, we were on winding it out in the episode too.

I was like, so when she's in court looking at Rudnick, it's like June and then this is all going on in February. So in seven months, she's relocated to Upstate, got a job at this prison, married some guy, and then and then is fully orchestrating a month's long escape like it's very you know, Bronwyn she knows how to get it done.

She truly does. I you know, she she uses her powers for evil? What can I say?

Do you well? So the real life case this escape for from Dana Mora, she the character like who your character is based on, did stay with her husband? And I am wondering, do you think Bronwin's husband stayed with her? Or was this the final? Was this like a gat What do you think?

I think Kyle Kyle? I think Kyle I rewatched this morning? Can you tell I think Kyle Ky? I feel like she probably picked him very specifically, I think Kyle probably stayed. How interested is Bronwyn from prison?

Who knows? But like I think he's probably still there you know what else not to go too fast, but because now I'm thinking about like Benson being like, you're lucky he left you in that trunk, you fucking idiot. But like you and Benson have a fun relationship, you know. I love when you're like she has some energy towards me, like I don't want this, Like how was working with Marishka and like your guy's fun energy a dream.

She she's just she's so kind and so thoughtful. And this goes back to like my first episode. But I remember, like my first episode of SVU was my first episode of TV period wow, And so I had like read the script like twenty times, applied everything I had ever studied in school. And I remember her coming in to check if she if I needed her for my eyeline for they were going to get some like reaction or something.

Yeah, so well put Yeah we hear that from a lot of people. She's not as as not as beautiful as very good. Ye well, and then I have to ask about the energy with you know, we we do think Pablo Schreiber is a hot guy and talented, but truly well what we'd so some for We went on tour for Halloween and amazing a West Coast and we asked people to dress up in the audience and we had a bron win in San Diego, so bat wives listening, but I took her, uh the pin oh amazing.

She was wearing pin. She had like a red wing. Yeah we got a card again on like she was fully like she was bringing the bron one. I'm I'm like genuinely honored. Yeah, we'll get you the photo. It was really it was a thrill. But how like is he in charactered as you try to be weird or is the extra nice on set to like counteract his creepiness, Like yeah, what is his what's that like? Super super thoughtful?

And I feel like the con I think if I hadn't met him a couple times before. Like I was thinking a lot about this going in and just reflecting on all of this. I would have been super terrified if I had like watched the episodes available to watch and I had not ever encountered Pablo in like the

It's okay, wait, we're talking about your whole arc.

Don't worry, Okay, thank you, and he like they needed some reaction shots of me in the jury box and like an eighty could have done it somebody. There are several options, and this had at that point, I think, been like a thirteen some on hour day. And Pablo stayed and hung out behind the camera and like fed me the stuff that I needed, and I was like, dang again, like something about the way that ship is run over at SVU, Like I think they bring in people who have that sort of ethos and then I

Yeah.

Wow, he's he's a cool. He's a I haven't seen him in a long time. He is a cool, good guy. And at one point, and I'll try and find this photo and send it to you, we were doing the twenty four hour plays several years later, and I think somebody had brought in cupcakes and I think it was for Daniel's birthday and he and I like both like peeped the cupcakes and were like troll the fans and like.

And took a fun photo.

Oh yes, we would love to see that picture. I would be so fun.

No, he really is the number one villain, I would say, legit, And he's so good. He's terrifying. Yeah.

On a show that literally has a new rapist or murderer every week, he is like the standout because he goes after you know, our beloved main character of course, but he's also burning off the fingertips.

I mean, like that's your intro ya.

Right, and and all that stuff in psychotherapist right, Like I learned while we were shooting from another one of the main characters, like the main cast that like this, they get research packets or they were.

At that time.

And this is a thing that that rapists often due to they're victims when there's a court room involved, Like I will I'm a survivor of sexual assault, but I have never I was never in a courtroom I was. I could not imagine being put in that position. So that is some odious, nefarious shit to be putting some many through who has been brave enough to try to get themselves some justice. And I think the fact that they like brought that piece in like it's horrifying. But

Yeah, will you tell us about Dallas Roberts And why am I forgetting rednecks real? Jefferson? Yeah, so I feel like the other prisoner too if I go, oh, yeah, he was great.

Oh sorry, Robin that's his character name, that's Robin de Hayes Seuss. That is Robin de hayes Sus, breakout star of Tick Tick Boom.

Did you watch Tick Tick?

Oh?

I haven't gotten to watch.

I have, I have a screener of it, and I never got a chance to watch it.

I came out of I came out.

Of Wicked, and I don't know why this is my reaction to coming out of Wicked, Like I came out of Wicked, and I'm like, you know, I think I maybe want to rewatch Tik Tik boom. I think it's something about like seeing theater people do great things on film.

It's it's a terrific adaptation.

I could I could turn this into a Robin de Haesu's fan podcast. Like he was reading can I like he was reading Elizabeth Gilbert's Big Magic. I think when we were shooting that, and I just remember talking to him a little bit because we've, like, you know, just this New York you see people all the time, like we had had. We were having a little conversation I think about the creativity and the business and whatever, and he's like, no, like go read this. He's just everybody's

You know.

It's like, oh, we were so excited to talk to him. He was sipping a tiny little white wine on the interview with us, like just so like amazing, I love him.

Ye, I mean Dallas Robert's also a powerhouse.

But I think it's like Jefferson Mays brings along the legend of like I Am my own wife and all like just has walked through so many big theater.

Things in the many years. So like, yeah, Fleishman is in trouble. I watched that. I liked it. How is that? Yeah? Well yeah, and then of course it's like problem when you know it's like the Leonardo DiCaprio meum, but thank you.

It was the most culturally specific thing I've ever had the pleasure of working on. No, but like that's okay, And I feel like everything I mentioned, but I can only speak about it through the like lens of something else. I remember watching Always Be My Maybe Yeah, and watching this scene at this house party where kids are coming

There's a bunch of reasons.

And she looks at me and she goes, well, of course, but I'm not going to burn two loaves in rehearsal. And I was like, I will never get to ask a question this specific again. And we can also go back if you would like a better anecdote for the podcast. Like for me, that was a huge I never have been in an environment where like we can speak that shorthand and be under like she can understand my question and give me an answer that gives me levels and we can move right on.

Yeah, like I may never have that again.

So like the entire process, like it was fittings were around porim, there were a humintash and like, yeah, it was my Yeah.

It's reminding me of like we talked to B. D.

Wong and he was saying that like on Nora from Queen's There was like a lot of that like a shorthand that they could just use like from cultural upbringing. You know, that's really interesting that you have the same kind of experience.

I loved it. It was I loved the novel.

I loved Taffy, and so like to get to play a small role and like telling that story and to play somebody like I feel like I knew, we all knew somebody who had like gone to Israel and like become deeply, deeply religious. It was fun to like step into those shoes and like antagonize everyone a little.

When you're on your IMDb the scene that's playing right up next year photo is Benson taking you out of the truck and how it's you guys fighting. I mean, it's just so much good stuff, really, thank you.

It was that was that whole episode was so much fun to shoot. They I spent like four hours in the trunk of that car, and they had props had like taken they'd like duct tape over maybe like medical tape that they had tried to take the stick off of, but Sophia Bush kept having to like rip the tape off. Yes, and she's like apologizing after every take, I'm like, I signed up for this. I knew this was I but

I think. So they have like that bloodhound that's in the scene.

I believe he was a retired blood He's like a retired police dog. So they needed him to chase something he was very, very interested in. And it wasn't me chicken like many dogs. So like they had put they had like scented the trunk with a little bit of chicken so that the dog would find it, and then you know, once the scene was cute, like a little reward of chicken. But the end of like four hours, I was definitely like, oh, there's like a piece of chicken.

In my hair. Was the dog cue.

He was like an enormous bloodhound. Every I'm a I'm a dog person, Every dog is cue.

I know, he was an enormous blood boy. Is well, I mean you got to be a jury for person. That's Svu Bingo. I mean that's really fun.

I had thought a long time that it's like if I could manage to be a corpse, I'd really be hitting it big, like that could be my moment and like, so to actually get to spend a week on that set observing all of those people and getting to participate in the creation of that episode was like beyond.

It was incredible. It was so much fun.

I don't think we recorded my speaking towards the end of the week, so I spent a lot of time like watching, reacting, learning how how the sausage got.

Made in the tea and like the actual factual TV world love it. I love it.

And now it's like you're literally beyond Like if you just were to like cut out all the main characters on the show, top ten side characters.

Well and I and I mean, it would be fun to see you get out of jail in the future and come do one more one more thing.

I'm touched that I'm not dead. One of the makeup artists like he would just see me in the hall and you'd be like, hey, not yet. And I started to feel like it was my nickname it but it's true, Like I sometimes wonder, I'm like what I feel like bron Win's moment maybe has like passed, like has definitely passed by, but like I'm like is she did she go to jail. I'm assuming Barbara made sure she went

Yeah, And it's like the hatred from Benson is so real because Benson, even when she finds a person, even when a person's done something wrong and she finds out they're a victim, you usually see her switch to treating them like a victim.

But she just will not do that with you because I.

Think you, like brought her so much trauma from those other the William Lewis situation that it's it's really kind of I know it's serious, it's a serious episode, but your character brings me a lot of like laughed, like I think it's you bring humor to the it, you know, where You're like, she has a lot of bad feelings towards me. I don't think I should be talking to her right now.

It's really I I'm happy that she's able to bring a moment of levity, yeah, or like extranists, so like serial killers, you know, truly, it's like she's she's kind of the worst.

She's I loved.

I loved playing her when I'm when I'm handed a script, I go to to bat to defend that character and chase after everything they want.

But man, I'm like, yeah, Bronwyn.

They despise me in the SPU subreddit and I'm like, I did, I've not spent a lot of time. Somebody mentioned it to me and I went looking once and it's like I was like, oh, I think it was. There was a meme going around of like who do you hate most? Like like villains, like to your point, like not main characters, just like people you really hate, and people kept sending it to me because I was showing up in some people's like collections of like twelve people.

It was like no, far no, And I was.

Like, I'm so glad someone like that is in this subreddit, and I think that is my signal to gracefully exit. But when I need a pithy like blue sky bio, I think it might say that right now, like most hated person in the SVU sub Yeah, Like I think I wear that as a badge of honor.

Literally I just googled it really quickly.

Bronwin as if you read it, and it's like Broadwin is so bizarre, fucking Bronwin. I despise bra who is the worst small character and why is it Bronwyn like.

And I'm like, you know, if I'm inspiring that level of hatred, then I did something right.

Yeah, I mean they gave you you you played a character who let multiple serial killers go so like the worst, yes, yes, yeah, I would love to see a Bronwin out of jail in the city. She's a witness to a crime in her and Benson cross paths again.

Yeah, like Benson and Noah are just in the streets, and then like she just sees Bronwin standing.

Because I think Bronwyn, we need Bronwyn to apologize to Olivia at some point and be like, I'm sorry, I was in a bad place. I was chasing after the wrong men in my life. You know, do you think do you think that she's reformed? Do you think she's grown like that?

No? In prison? Probably not. Well, I'm also curious at what you're what what you do at your job and the shows you met here at the studio you say you also love it. I am curious about Oh yeah, totally, totally.

So.

I am a senior producer on LinkedIn's editorial production team. So I work. I work at a tech company. I have an arts job at a tech company. Don't let that get out too much. So we make several shows in house. We partner with a bunch more as part of the LinkedIn podcast network. I got to help launch that network in twenty twenty two. The thing I realized as I was getting ready to sort of pivot away

Yeah, thank you for taking the time to talk to us.

I was doing shows in Cincinnati this weekend and someone I try to give the people that come out to see me like tidbits because they're just humans, right. So I'm like, bron Win's coming this week, and everyone was very excited. I'm like, we're getting Bronwin, baby.

Thank you, thank you so much. This has been delightful. Thank you so much for your nation.

Yeah you too. Okay. I was like obsessed with Sarah, like she remembered so much, so thoughtful, She's such a lover of the craft and all the theater and knows everything and is so specific in her storytelling and moments and yeah, like yes, what she does means a lot to her and.

It's cool totally and so like eloquently putting how she found like the vibe on the set and the opportunity that she was having and yeah.

It's like what we want from all the guests. I know. I'm like, can you remember every detail and like all the people and give us the nuanced answers please?

Yes, exactly, Like every single moment, every little comment from a director.

I love that.

We love the specifics that said, if you made an episode twenty years ago, we would still like you to be on the show. If you don't know, yeah, we'll have you.

Yeah. Oh I wouldn't know about the double Hallas. I would be like, can we eat this for real? Like I would just be happy there's holla around. Yeah, I really that failing my Jewish tests here, but that.

Was awesome and uh, I guess yeah, we could just go right into it.

Do you know what? I think so much about the Camp of Bronwyn and just the sort like there's just so much that I do. I did forget that Yeats is like an animal, you know what I mean, Like he really did fuck her up, and Rednick is the sweet soul murder of you know, he did, you know, decapitate a woman but somehow let her go. Yeah. Yeah, and for being so wealthy. It is weird that Rudnick works as a medical examiner like it.

Ask my question though, do we think Rudnick has killed a bunch of times since the killing when he was young, like years he gets.

His jolly is off, like dissecting, just doing.

This stuff in the morgue, Like do you think he's kind of like that's what he figured out was his like way to like stop his urges to kill, was like working in the morgue.

And then the next person he kills.

Yes, of course he murders and like like chops up the the Yates's wife or baby mama whatever, but like before in between them, do you think he kills.

The way Yates like has to kill. I don't know.

Yeah, he's like most conscience if he lets Bronwin go, whereas Yates is an animal, like you said, yeah, he needs it.

Yeah. This I mean not to keep talking about Luigi, but it is like when you know, we're into murder now it's like we're like, listen, Rudnick, he figured it out.

I just what are the chances that, like we were did this interview while a nationwide manhunt was concluding.

It's just like very you know, it's very coincidental. I love it.

But post mortem on this episode, I mean, I don't know how much takeaway there is for the average person. Don't start a love affair with a serial killer. Don't do it twice. I don't know, Like, don't do it two times, like they're going to lock you in the trunk of a car and drive away.

They don't. Yeah, they're they are criminals who got caught who want to not be caught. Like stop, stop, it's not real. You know, we really drill into opposites. Attract or love can find you anywhere. But let's say prison's not it prison?

Do you think, like the guy that didn't die and now I'm forgetting because their names are so interchangeable in the Dana Mora escape, like he just like sits in prison every day and thinks about ways that the plan got fucked up because like I mean, wow, because it's like you're not gonna the stars are not gonna align that way. Again bro, and so they're probably keeping a serious watch on you.

Now when it wasn't fun, like that's the whole thing. It's like, well, I don't know what it's like to be so captives that Like maybe that was fun, but like fighting for your life at night in the woods just doesn't even seem that more enjoyable than like getting fucked in the tailor room. I don't know.

Yeah, they kind of walked away from a good situation that they had.

I know, it was life, but it's like this woman was paying off debt, Like it seems like people were the employees were down to fuck, like.

Overall, few cheeseburgers, like, come on, like it wasn't that bad. Wow, this one wild, I mean, just such a wild episode, uh, bringing back Bronwyn, linking together multiple serial killers bringing a world c I remember when I watched this when it was first on, being like I wonder how much the police departments of Chicago and New York actually interface, you know, like how much are they actually working on crimes of a killer that just works between those two places, like

Yeah, I want to know do crossovers work, like do the lead and so I mean, I'll tell you the greatest of all time was Beverly Hills Housewives and the vander Pump Rules. But I really can't think of any other, like, oh, I gotta get into this one that never yeah, has a crossover. I'm usually like piss, it didn't even work for organized crime and I'm an SBU podcast, Like, yeah, you'd think I want Maloney back in my life. Yeah, I mean it did for me.

I'm still a season behind though, so we'll see if I catch up. I'm gonna try to catch up up with that over the holidays. Actually, just like do a day of just watching OC NonStop Maloney in my face the whole time, because I do like it.

It is good.

But yeah, I got like I was. It depends if we're talking about crossover versus spinoff. I mean from nine O two one, oh, I went right into melrose Place and like all these other like that was a crossover. Like there were some crossovers get me sometimes, but yeah, vander Pump and Beverly Hills is uh that's a good one.

I realized that melrose Place and nine O two one zero were linked outside of just Aaron spelling, like, I didn't realize there was crossover.

Yes, Jake, the main hottie on melrose Place was like in a flirtation with Kelly on Beverly Hills Rid Toto.

So that's how it's popped off.

Wow, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, Grant Show.

Oh my god, I used to watch I used to watch melrose and Beverly Hills. I loved them so much. But what do you think? Should we move on to what would Sister Peg Do? Yeah?

Yeah, so this week, so what would mister Peg Do? Our weekly segment where we direct you towards an article, a book, an organization, something to give you more info about what we talked about in today's episode. We wanted to obviously point you to the mini series Escape at Dana Mora, like we described it in the episode. It stars Paul Dano, Benicio del Toro, and Patricia Arquette.

It's directed by Ben Siller.

It like was nominated and I think won a bunch of awards, and it's now on Netflix. So if you're looking for something to watch in these last few days of holiday break escape a Dana Mora give you more info on uh that that escape may help you visualize the whole escape, and that will be posted the day this episode comes out in our stories Saved Forever, in our WWSPD highlight on our Instagram page.

You know, I was talking shit about how I don't want another Jean Vine like Ramsey show, you know, but I talked to someone who watched and said their opinion to change. Interesting.

So yeah, it's like a lot of people said their opinion changed about Casey Anthony when they watched that one, and I just I just can't change my opinion.

I don't think on that one. But maybe I'm wrong. No, she did it and she got away with it. And yeah, if you commit a crime, I would try to hire that lawyer. Like I don't have to tell you. Next week we will be doing Prodigy. I'm excited, Season three, episode thirteen, and we'll see you in the New Year. Wow. How special.

Happy New Year's Eve everybody, and we'll see you in twenty twenty five.

Bye. That's messed up as an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us, or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at Messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Klank and at glitter Cheese. As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our senior producer Casey O'Brien and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain, and to our.

Mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and.

To Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork.

Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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