Mother w/ Jon Abrahams

Of the law and order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories.

Done done, Hello, and welcome to That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

I'm Kara Klink and I'm Liza Traeger. Hello.

Every week we talk about an episode of SVU, the true crime it's based on, and then we have a guest from the episode, and in the beginning we catch up. We really haven't been in the same place in months. Yeah, and we are actually recording.

We record a lot on zoom and today we are recording face to face baby, and it's good to see you.

It's good to see you.

Your fresh off today, your fresh off a trip. You're looking great.

That's the whole thing.

I thought I was going to come here and be like, holy shit, vacation, vacation, fun, Chicago, New York, my friends, everything was great. But then I got to la fully burst into tears in my apartment.

I fucking hate it.

And but then I was like, whatever, my air conditioners fixed.

That's all I need. You baby, want it.

I'm gonna hang some shit on the wall and I'm gonna feel good. And then there was construction in my building, buzzing, drilling, and no one warned me, and I just can't believe it. And it, truly, I was hanging on by a thread and now it's it's cut.

But it's like you're on the calm down from a very fun vacation, right, is not a little bit what the sadness is about?

Correct?

Yeah?

And then you have to catch up on everything.

Yes, No, you're always trying to make me not hate it as much. And I know it's cliche a bitch about La, but maybe there's.

A reason for that.

I feel like you always say this, And then within a couple of weeks, you're at the store, you're bopping around town your love and life.

Yeah, we'll see, we'll see, we'll see.

Tune in next week when Rose, when Lisa's fully reporting.

To us from her new apartment.

But I didn't see Oscar and he's just a big ass baby and he's like grown.

Yeah, and Rosie like heard Lisa was around the house and was like Lisa and like ran to her.

So you had a little acting coach sashon.

Yeah, Yeah, I was glad Ted got to lay eyes on Rosie.

Maybe when she becomes a child actress, he can work with her. She would make tons of money.

And I don't know why you don't push that further because I have to take her.

Oh yeah, and I had to be around those moms. Yeah, that would that would be terrible. No, you have enough.

No.

I had kind of a dream week. It was like I went nightclubbing with the club owner. You know, I was like in a booth across from the DJ, jumping on a jumping up and down as like cold steam blue in my face. Yeah, like you know, bottles of champagne, like with fire out of it.

Yeah.

We had like a real like this week.

Lisa called me and we had a real like two roads diverged in the wood and I took the road with two children, and like Lisa took the road with fucking partying and nightclubs and like she was just living like her best life. And I was like, cool, I'm potty training my two year old.

Well good for.

Her, but no, she's Scottie Pippen at the Soho House pool in Chicago.

Can you get more like what a sighting for a Chicago person went? To a Cubs game, second row behind the home team. Dugout amazing.

It was just a little much, but at least I got stuck in a hurricane to humble me back down. Yeah, and after my birthday party, I was struggling, if that's what you say.

I was in a dark room. Oh, it was tough.

To Lisa and I had to get on a video call the day after her birthday, and I was like, note to us, we don't do any business the day after Lisa's birthday. Anyone's birthday, Yeah, anyone's birthday. You just like were in a Yeah. I didn't see your face. You were just in a dark road.

But I set it up top. I go, I'm not getting on camera, And I think that's fine.

What's the fuck is up with Google hangouts? You can't hide the camera and zoom you can at least hide it.

You can't. I mean, I'm sure you can't. I was not in a place, but I.

Was watching a lot of below deck. Yeah, you don't watch any of it. I want you to know my new mantra. So there's Hannah. She's a superstar and she's like the chief stewardess, Like she's the chief girl, And at.

The end of one of this whole season, one of the girls.

That worked under her was just like, I just want you to know you're the worst chief stew I've ever worked for.

I think you're terrible.

Ball blah just kept going on and on and Hannah just went okay, and it drove Bugsy insane.

And that is something I'm trying to take with me.

It's like, that's literally the full premise of that sketch on SNL with Pete Davidson, Like people just say saything to him and he goes, okay, okay, you know have you seen that?

No, but you watch every episode. I am a weirdly sn'll complete is.

Oh I want everyone to know. So I ran into someone that worked at SNL and this is amazing. I said, I go, need, I have some professional things to bring up to you. And I could see the fear in her eyes, like she thought I was about to ask to write it, Like I could just tell she was nervous, and then she was relieved when I went, why is Marishko Hargatain not hosted the show? He's asses in the air, you know, like they're coming together.

Why can't they do it? Together. What is going they're just having agent. They're on your network for decades. They're both funny. Yeah, they're both good.

They're actor, they're gonna show up on time, they're gonna work with everyone.

It's enby what is going on.

And so she sent some texts and she said, if it happens, that we'll get to go. But I'm just saying, like, if it happens, I would like to take full credit. I mean literally, there should be press around you watch she's just like making sandwiches there. Yeah, She's like, sure, I'll text somebody.

No.

I can't understand how SNL's always after like the new hot shit and maybe they're a little old, but it's like, bring on Benson and stable and then make the guest be like fucking little nase X for somebody that's really hot, Like make the musical guest somebody really young and hot.

I love Little nas X's pregnant Bellay, I know much. It's so funny. I do too.

It's so I just love how hard he trolls on people, like he's so.

Good at it.

She's like, he knew this would drive the conservative's fucking nuts to see a gay black man with the pregnant belly.

It's like bingo for fuck faces. But it's just so silly that it's like, how do you even be mad at that? I know she's not actual. What's going on? Why are you mad? Baby? It's so good? So thank you for posting. I did it. I saw everyone write nice things to me. Oh yeah Lisa's birthday post.

You guys are the best listeners, and you all gave Lisa but some beautiful birthday love.

But you had a great birthday, right? Oh yeah, it was awesome.

I you know, I did live through the hurricane, but no, it was incredible.

I felt really lucky for my friends, and I liked everyone around me.

And then then, I mean I was way more hammered than I ever anticipated, because the next day they were like, we were all singing share. I didn't sing share. I was like, I only took a couple shots. She goes every time I saw you, you were taking a shot. So I was like, I left my phone in a cab. I offered them one hundred fifty. I got into a fight at the bodega. I was this guy was seizing. I was like, get your mask, how dare you? And he goes, you're not wearing a mask. As I just like, well,

Sounds like you were at peak, Liza, and that's perfect for your birthday.

And I did get dosed.

I thought I was eating an edible and it was mushrooms. So I did have one night that was less than ideal. But Lady Gaga got you through it.

Yeah, Well I had one night that was crazy. Yeah, I had one crazy night. I went to WIHO to West Hollywood everybody to see to watch the finale of All Stars six I happened.

I called up some of my old drag Race friends.

All we all wanted to see each other or whatever, so we and some of them still work on the show. So we all got together at Roccos, which is a bar that Lands Bass owns in West Hollywood.

Okay, little vander Pump Junior.

Yeah, And I turns out Eureka was hosting that night, so Eureka's there.

I got to meet Eureka. I'd never met her before. She was so sweet.

Actually I had met her one she was getting on an airplane and they did not have her first class ticket, and she was just straw and she looked like she was just really going through it, and I went, I just want to tell you, I think you're so talented, and she was like thanks Sis, and then that was it and like we just hadn't But so then I really met her. The other night, I got irresponsibly drunk. For having two children, I don't know, maybe I should be able to get as drunk as I want, but I.

Got really drunk. I met Manila.

Oh my god, Manila was out of drag, and I just she was so cool and I was just like I was so drunk and I kept seeing being like, well, I just think you were robbed, and like she doesn't give a fuck about All Stars four. It was like four years ago.

She's rich, who cares?

And I just I really feel like I embarrassed myself. Pheromone was there. I forgot to say. Eureka walked in with Tori Spelling and Snookie on either side of her, Like what an entrance. But my friend Jed was with me, aka biggest gossip from Connecticut high school that Lisa has dubbed him, and he was like, I mean, I don't know why she brought them.

It's not like gays care about them, Like.

They don't know, they don't care about Snooki and Tory, but maybe they're real friends. But then the next day one of our friends sent us a clip that was like, Tory Spelling looks fully like Chloe Kardashian.

Now she's just had so much work done.

Yeah, but it's weird because she looks like a better version of Chloe.

It's like upsetting. Yeah.

Also, I forgot we did intro, so maybe people already heard about Pippin and Cubs and if that's the case, to deal with it.

No, no, no, I think it's okay because now you're in your set.

You did a little bit of Pippot and Cubs in nightclub, but you didn't do full New York, full birthday.

You know, we're getting the whole, the whole trip.

Yeah, if you want to fucking drool a little bit, go over to Lisa's Instagram and check out her NYC food posts because that was some great photography.

Going out with a chef is nice. Yeah, Emmy's guy. Yeah. Wait, so let's talk about all stars.

Also, Manila was in my favorite lip sync this season with Kylie's Sony Club for Journey.

That was good.

That's when I was like, oh, Kylie is my girl. Once she did a handstand into the splits, I was like.

And when she in the in the it's another thing where it's like really, coming into the finale, anything can fucking happen. Everyone thought Shaye was gonna win season nine, and those fucking took it for Sasha, like, if you have a really good performance in the finelle, I think you can win. And Kylie slipping and doing that summersault, that's a professional amazing, that was a professional move.

That was yeah.

Wait.

So I went to my first in person, not driving drag show in Chicago.

You went to drag brunch. I went to no food though, so I was funny.

But you know, I'm sitting with my two girlfriends and you know in walks shake Coulee down the stairs and I go, hey girl, and I she gave me one of the the nicest, deepest hugs I could have ever imagined.

And then I did feel cool.

I got to introduce my girlfriend you don't even tell me this to shakehul At.

I saw you in a photo with Shay's boyfriend. I was like, oh, she got another with Dan's boyfriend, who we love, big fan of the friend of the pod.

But like, I didn't know you mentioned you saw sche well and.

Then she was like, I'll be right back. She never came back, but Dan was like, she's not coming. But and then Dan goes and you know, there's no food. So we're watching a drag show. I'm tipping tens twenty. I'm like throwing money at these people. Oh they are so good, so talented. There was a white lotus lip syning no yes, and it was like the massage scene with Jennifer Coolidge, and it went into my neck, my backs, into tweets.

Oh, white lotus to tweet. I couldn't believe it.

And then one was doing one hundred percent Pure Love and these are yeah, Dan knew all of them. These are all his friends and one of the queens, they're like the walls are windows.

So she runs out in the middle of the performance, runs into the middle of.

The street with full feathers, like fun outfit, and is dancing in the middle of the street. And then I see my friend Catherine and I go, what, why is Catherine there? We text Catherine and she goes, I need to eat. I fell down and then so we're trying to close out. We chased her. Both my friends, both Veronica and puking in the streets. I'm sober, I'm driving them. I drink as much as them, Like, I don't know what happened. Both of my friends. We went to Jetsya

But it was wild. It was wild, and then I had shows. I had two shows that night. I hope you know that's amazing.

Wait, speaking of White Lotus, we were so big into it when I was staying with my family on the East Coast that my brothers got Rosie to start saying, nehow Nicole Moss Boker and she says it like all the time.

Now it's like so good. That is amazing. If you haven't watched White Lotus, check that show.

Dan and I took shots of Mallure And also, I love everyone's Chicago love in the comments.

Yeah, everybody's like, fuck that Oklahoma bitch. You guys are real ones.

And we love you.

But it was amazing to see drag and I can't wait to see more.

Well, now that you're here, maybe I'll take you to some drag in one of the greatest drag cities that you currently live in, and you can stop hating.

It please, I want to. And it was just it was really great. It was really fun.

Eureka was like, so she was kind of performing and but but it's just like watching the show in a bar is just so fun. Maybe they'll be maybe they'll be UK viewings for like the new season of UK and we'll go, oh, I would yeah, yeah, I.

Heard there's Italian now too. I mean, they can't stop even for me.

I'm like, I need a I don't watch Holland and I'm not gonna watch a Span yet, but I would watch Italia just because I love it Italy and I speak Italian and I would like it would kind of okay stable, I'm I'm that's messed up pods guy in Rome. Yeah, that's me call back to episode one of our podcasts.

I can't believe people listen.

Yeah, it was really fun meeting everyone out and about one of my favorite.

Girls at the cellar, Sarah was like, you know, I listen and I go I didn't know I got it.

I got a part time babysitter, got her turned onto it. She was sitting behind me watching my child and I and I heard her phone go off and it was a lot on Order s View's theme song. And I was like, excuse me, is that your phone? And she was like yeah, and I was like, I got to tell you about something. So I'm converting people by hiring them into my life.

Oh and the last night of New York I love David Telly's my favorite comedian and he's going after me at the comedy He's so good.

And I was there with this a few friends.

We'd been drinking, but I was laughing harder than I've ever laughed in my life. And then he brought me on stage with him. I got to sit on the piano bench and it was like old times and we're just like riffing back and forth and it was like I couldn't.

No wonder you started crying when you got home. Oh my god.

And one more quick thing before we go, just a reminder that Lisa and I will be doing stand up at the Moontower Comedy Festival the last weekend of September, which is the twenty third through the twenty fifth, But on the twenty fifth, we will be doing a live That's Messed Up at six thirty pm at the Parker Jazz Club. If you have friends in Austin, if you live in Austin, please send them our way, Please send yourselves our way, Please come and see us, because we

I've seen this one a million times and never gets old.

So the episode starts with two dudes like walking in New York. One is like very scared of everything he's seeing. He's very like, he acts like he's just I don't know, he's so scared to be in New York. He references a paraplegic hooker. Not my words, but I don't know what's going on with these two guys. They go up to an unmarked door.

Well, yeah, if you're so scared of New York, you don't have to be going to the unmarked doors in the middle of the night.

Exactly.

Go back to the Double Tree in Times Square, bitch, exactly.

I was I was thinking the same thing. I was kind of like you also, just like, don't need to come to New York if this is so hard for you.

Yeah, you can just go eat ramen. There's other things to do. Yeah. Times Square is very there's an eminem.

Ste So are you trying to find sex workers in the middle of the night.

Yeah, it might be a sketchy area. Yeah. Well, I think we find out they're trying to do Heroin.

I'll get into it, but I'm confused as to what this journey is for these two guys. They go up to an unmarked door and there's a guy guarding it, and the guy just says to him Enrique, and then he's like Ricardo down at the Java Barn and soho

They pay this guy at the door twenty.

Bucks and the guy goes that was just a house fee because they thought twenty bucks was going to get them. I guess the drugs they're looking for. And they're like, he's like, Enrika is downstairs, third door on the left. They go looking for him and they're like, second door on the left. It's like you guys, and the one guy goes, just try not to pee my pants. It's like, act like you've been there before. You're being really embarrassing.

It's just random dripping sounds.

And then they go into a room looking for Enrique and they see a woman lying on the bed and we can't.

Really tell what's up, like she might be tied to the bed.

And one of the dudes goes, we're still going to score flip you to see who does it first. So this guy is a piece of trash, and the scared boy at least has a conscience and goes, you, sick freak, she's unconscious, And that is a man who was raised correctly, even though he was raised to believe that everything in New York is very scary. He says something about not being able to get it up once the h hits, and that's what makes me think that they're obviously.

On the hunt for heroin.

And the other guy is just essentially about to rape this woman when two cops bust in and they hank up these guys, and then they try to wake up this woman and we can that's when we can see that her hands are duct taped, so her hands have been duct taped together, and she's.

Just lying unconscious on this bed.

So and the next scene, Benson and Stabler are there and the cop is walking them through what's up. He's just telling them like, she has no track marks, she took a nasty blow to the head, she has no idea. She's just not the typical person that you would find in one of these They keep calling it a shooting gallery, which I had never heard that term before, but I guess that's how you talk about a place where people

I thought maybe she was dead when we found her, but she just has a head injury.

And as they get her into the light, Benson and Stabler actually recognize her as the expert witness from some big trial and her name is doctor Greta Hintz, and Stabler goes, she's the woman who thinks she can fix rapists, and then we're at the credits. That's a troublesome profession to think you can fix rapists, I guess. We find out that she is a top forensic psychiatrist who teaches at Hudson Medical School. She spends most of her time trying to cure sex offenders.

And wrote a book about it.

And these two guys that were wandering New York alternately scared and trying to write people were doing research for their art. They had mentioned a chapter or something, so I guess they're writers.

Finna Munch bring in.

The door guy and the two dorks who paid to get in, and he's like, I was just hanging out. I don't know shit, and they're like, that's probably not the case. You are a door guy at this shooting gallery. So they interrogate him and he's like, I knew those two cholos were bad luck. I thought that was confusing, because that's these men are not my definition of cholos. The door guy's name is Javier Francisco Medina, aka Badass.

Classic?

Yeah, with every resewatch, it's confusing that anyone ever truly liked him. It's basically just his looks at this point that is keeping him.

It actually got me googling Kathy. I was like, do she has she ever had a job.

Or she's just been a stay at home I mean, he's really never let her do anything except have many many of his children. And all it really says in her thing about her is that she's a moment a very devout Catholic. But anyway, so they think they can work around the doctor's confidentiality issues by looking up like who was court appointed to see her? And Finn and Munch go check it out and says that there's like about two dozen of these patients that are seeing doctor Hinz.

He's a top ten character, I would say of all history. He was.

He is very nervous, so muscular, so wild, and I bet he has a voice of an angel like I bet he's a Broadway guy or something.

Oh, we should look him up.

I also looks up the door guy because I was obsessed with him.

But he's not famous, even though he should be.

He was funny, Yeah, I thought he was very good. We're talking to Bruce, and Bruce is like that bitch. Tried to emasculate me, told me to suck on my thumb, gave me stuffed animals, read me bedtime stories, had me call her mommy. And I feel like he could use a little childlike wonder in his life. But he was not interested in it, and her therapy backfired. He said her program made me want to go out and prove my manhood, if you know what I mean.

So I don't know.

He's a very scary character to me with his big threats of rape. But now we're talking to Huang. He says that doctor Heinz is a pioneer in the field. She believes all sex offenders were themselves abused, and Benson's like, yeah, duh, most were, and she thinks if they can be regressed back to the time of trauma, then she can reparent them. They call it healing their psychic booboos. I forget who says that month. Maybe it's cutting edge stuff, and the jury is still out on whether any of it works.

So I think this is like a thing that people. Definitely, I'm very.

Conflicted about the mom groups because I did get this couch from one of the moms, but then they're also trying to close my dispensary, So I don't.

Know how to feel about these moms.

I know, but I have to tell you, I think that there's only a couple moms trying to close the dispensary, not that many people are joining in on the crusade.

There is a flyer on our friend's doorstep to close it.

Yeah, they're definitely vocal, but I just don't think they're getting a lot of help.

From the other moms. A lot of us are not contributing.

I'm just saying I hope it doesn't work because I like that dispensary also, But I've just heard of like this reparenting stuff like if you go back, like try to think about your own childhood and not repeat your same traumas, you won't pass them on and stuff like that. But I'm sure it's deeper than that, and as evidenced by this woman's therapy, that we'll find out moret And

So at least she's trying something, you know.

So Craigan suggests civil commitment, which is like Newshawn Williams, which we talked about a couple of episodes ago, and Munch is like, oh yeah, make them pay for their crime twice. That'll go over gangbusters at the ACLU. So Munch is on our side here about that. So Hoong tells them that doctor Heinz is actually on the Civil Commitment Review Board and that they just let out their first rapist, a guy named Benny Edgar Ralsay, believed to

Duct tape rapist.

So that's why it's sort of important to remember that she was found with her hands duct taped together in this shooting gallery. So she claimed that Benny Edgar ral Say's treatment was a total success.

So now Finn goes to visit Benny his.

Job at an electronics store, and he's like, doctor Heinz completely rewired me.

I don't even think that way anymore.

He says he would never hurt her because she's the whole reason he's out. She's like a mother to me. Keyword. He was home alone that night, but he was also wearing an ankle monitor. So then they go talk to this guy and there's this whole thing about the ankle monitor, and like the guy just keeps saying too many times how perfect and fool proof it is. And whenever you're talking about that so much, it's like, clearly there's a problem. There's a hole in your logic because someone's going to

I don't know Stabler with the word play.

No, I'm taking that for life, entering a bar and going we're in a hozone.

That's that's great.

So then okay, So then the guy who's explaining all this to them says, yeah, if he makes a wrong move, like he steps into a hoe zone, I'm notified immediately to my PDA, And I'm like, lol, very two thousand and three. And he just keeps saying how foolproof it is, so obviously Benson and Stabler are going to figure out how this guy is slipping the slip in the monitor.

Benson and Stabler are staking out his place. They're chatting.

They're talking about how they got the lugs from her phone and that she got a phone call from a payphone.

Two stops away from Benny's place.

So that's like pretty far to go two stops on a train to make a call at a payphone. But maybe it happened. But then, how did he beat the ankle monitor. Maybe he's because he works in an electronics store. He has some way of doing it. And then they think he's trying to climb out the window. They see some you know, they see some movement up by his window,

Maybe not.

Yeah, yeah, So now it's not really foolproof when you can slip the damp thing off your ankle and put it on your cat.

I guess a note to that other man.

Has anyone ever been dazzled their ankle monitor? I would love to see that.

The top article is about a woman being fined for having done so, so I don't think it's allowed.

Oh but it's been done. You're not allowed to express yourself through your ankle monitor.

Apparently not well boo. Now they're waiting on a warrant for Benny's place, and we found out he was fired from the electronic shop after they left because the coworkers all freaked out when they found out who he was. They're watching his mom's house and Cabot walks in with bangs, serious bangs and tells them not to hold their breath. She looked at the visitor logs from when he was in jail, and in eight years, no one visited him, including his mother, not a person, so that's sort of sad.

He served his time.

He's not on parole, and this is the first time a civil commitment has been released, so he's legally Joe citizen and the standards are higher, Like, it's not like he's on parole.

Breaking parole.

You can kind of get a warrant a lot easier, So she says she needs more.

You need to go back and talk to the doctor.

And then they get word, as they always do in SVU, at just at this exact moment, they get word that someone has vandalized doctor Heinz's office. So at her office, the place is totally torn up. Her session tapes have been for the week have been stolen, and she's defending Benny. She's like, he's my biggest success story. He has a new life, a healthy relationship, and a good job until you persecuted him, and she only they want to know about his girlfriend. They're like, oh, he has a relationship,

Them around his brother.

And then Benny said that he was dating a nice, wholesome girl, a livebrarian.

So now we're at the library talking to Amy.

I guess we just found we cross reference to all the librarians named Amy, and we found this girl at the library. She is like gushing about Benny, celebrating their one month and adversary.

Soon.

She seems like very giddy talking about him. She's in love and she says it's not his fault. Benny had an addiction and it's under control now. She's like, we have plenty of books about the subject.

Oops.

She thinks he's a gambling addict and not a full convicted rapist. I also feel like he's very young to be getting out of jail for being got on seven to eight rapes.

Yeah, but according to all of our research, that seems truly perfect. I bet he was like under eighteen, raped everyone and then let him out at twenty.

One, you know what I mean, Like, yeah, you're right, because like they I think they said he was in there for eight years, and I'm like, for seven to eight rapes, and when they thought that he was did thirty to forty and he had a literal nickname.

I feel like, once you have a nickname, you're in jail for life. But maybe I'm wrong.

The du no I bet, yeah, I bet you can steal a car and get more time that's true.

You know, Paul Bernardo's always up for whatever, and he's a kenon barbie killer. So they basically tell Amy what his real crimes are and she breaks down and she says, he's at my apartment. Last night was the first time he ever spent the night, so that's why he slipped the ankle.

Monitor.

Not really sure why he would make that the first night. He does that after the cops have been sniffing around him, but you know, he made a choice. At Amy's place, Ben, he's like cooking her dinner and he's like, hey, babe, and the detectives arrive.

He runs for it. Fin and Munch stop him.

They went through his bags at Amy's place and they find that he took pictures of her sleeping. They found a glass cutter, a crowbar, duct tape, essentially a full rapist toolkit, and he admits that he does still think about it, and.

That would be on fun shark tank product. A rapist tool kit gets you.

Out of any jam or into any jam. He admits he still thinks about offending and it's a constant. But he said he didn't buy any of that stuff until the cops started hounding him.

I don't know what that like, you get.

So stressed out by the cops investigating you that you want to reoffend. But I guess maybe that's that's what happened in rooftop. So we'll see. He's still claiming he had nothing to do with what happened to doctor Heinz.

And so now Benny is being sent.

Back to a state hospital, like he's basically going to prison because none of the evidence of this break in ties him to it, but he is going back to, you know, being civilly committed. They find Prince at the scene of Robert Logan and so they go to pick him up, and there are cops and an ambulance there already because Robert has just attempted suicide. And he gets brought out on a stretcher and doctor Heinz is there with him.

Yikes, okay. At the top of act.

Three, doctor Heinz is like, I he was in crisis. I came to his apartment and they're like, what's why, what's what the house call? He's the one that attacked you, And she said, yeah, I suspected that, And Benson and Stabula are like, what is going on? She says he had anger issues with her. The last time they saw each other the previous Friday, she told him she needed to transition him to another therapist, and he became obsessed with her, and she suggested maybe he'd see a male therapist.

She's leaving her husband for me. All we do is make love in our sessions.

She initiated all of it and said he stole the session tapes so he could hear her voice and it hurts when I'm not with her. And they're like, okay, we'll where are the tapes And he's like, someone stole them from me, and they're like, we just got to get those tapes. They prove that she loves me. So now we're want we want to find these tapes. I'd like to add I do love this actor. He is one of my favorites.

No, he's great scary movie prime I love it.

Yeah and cool you enter SVU with a bloody neck on a stretcher.

Oh yeah, way to make a splat.

Okay, So he says someone stole the tapes and that if they find the tapes they'll prove that she loves him, Like on the tapes, there's all this stuff about her wanting him to get undressed so they can take a bath together to suck on her breasts, like all this stuff. Hang's like, what happened with the crack house? And He's like, I don't remember, I lose time, I have blackouts, I enter these fugue states, and the last thing I remember

He hasn't been to class in weeks.

They're talking to again, one of these people that will not stop to talk to the cops. She's late, she's late. She's got to keep moving to talk to the cops. So he made law review and cracked under the pressure, and the day his article was due for the law review, he disappeared. And then he turned up a week later thinking that was the due date, and he freaked out when they told him he wasn't going to be published. So this woman was like, I actually tried to date Robert.

Where I have huge news here.

Yeah, she is holding a meth addict and dragging him around.

And that is Will Miles's brother. This is Will Miles's brother's episode.

Yes, this is James Miles being dragged by the sister.

Wow.

Well he does a great job at appearing weightless. I mean, I mean he is a full dead body in her hands, essentially.

Shout out James and Will Miles.

Just so you guys know, is a very funny comedian and writer who is a mutual friend of ours. So that's his brother, and has a very cute daughter, yes, exceptionally cute.

And he's seen me pee in public more than any other one of my friends.

Oh interesting record holder, because I feel like, yeah, there's a lot of people in the running for that one.

Oh yeah, no, there's been Like I've definitely pulled over while he's been in my car and had to just be in the streets.

So that's another thing Will is very much known for. He's great.

Okay, So Christina grabs James Miles, who is like, you know, high on meth, and starts dragging him through the hall as she continues talking to Benson and Stable or It's one of the wildest like walking talks I've ever seen. She's just fully carrying a grown man while she talks. She says that she reported doctor Hinz, but Robert said that he was helping her and so they dropped the case and like it was never investigated, like I think she wanted to investigate her from all practice or something.

Checked out after five hours. AMA against medical advice at the.

Preescinct, Benson is stable are filling in Kragan and they're trying to figure out whether he lured her to this place, whether hours before the attack he was in his right mind, and then they hear who cares, and we spin around and we find Betina Amador civil actions Ada, And I just think that this name is funny because the guy that came and put electricity in my garage was named Amador, and Rosie's never forgotten him, and she constantly goes.

Where's Amador? Did he bring his tools? Like she always asks about him.

So anyway, Betina Amador looks like a Jersey shore girl who went to law school and was like, I can be a bit professionally. And she's really like sassy. So she says Logan won't go to trial. He's not fit to proceed. It doesn't matter how sane he was at the time of the attack. They're saying he's looney tunes now, and Benson is like he's faking it, and she's acting like really bored. She's like, I guess I'll try it, Like she's like, okay, I love calling people looney tunes.

Yeah, I wonder if she was like, this is my moment. And then yeah, I looked her up too. I looked her up.

She's I think, on Riverdale and a bunch of other things that I nothing I've really watched. But she works a lot, and then right before she walks out of the room, she goes, might want to spruce it up for court. She like fully reads the detectives for filth and it's pretty funny. In court, Betina is cross examining doctor Vodka, who is another psychiatrist who says Robert is

Like she's very aggressive in the court.

Well, everyone that thinks he's faking it, it's like, no, he's clearly off his rocker, you know what I mean, Like, I don't understand the suspicions he we see him in and he's bleeding from his neck. You know, clearly something is not okay. You know, this therapist is asking him to suckle her breasts, like.

Something is up.

I don't know why they're all like this guy's not telling the truth. Like I've never seen a more compelling defendant on this show.

Yeah, we've seen people fake it before, and it's not the same vibe.

We've seen people faking being crazy on this show.

And he fully thinks that they are in love and this is crazy and he doesn't know what's happening, Like, I don't know why everyone is suspicious of him.

Yeah, and I would say losing time, like losing weeks before you go on you get your law review thing published, Like he's definitely there's a history here of you know, mental illness. So Robert is being represented by svu' staple Cleoconrad played by Jill Marie Lawrence, iconic defense attorney, and then doctor Heinz takes the stand and Bettina asks, are you in love with Robert Low? And she says no, and that's like really where you can tell? Robert is

Him, and it would all be good.

And then he gets to do another amazing thing, the dream role on SVU.

He gets to fucking flip out and the course yes completely.

She says she's never engaged in sexual intercourse with him, and he's like, why are you lying? I think this is why in my mind I thought maybe she did.

Have sex with him when I watched this episode in the past. I think I thought that she did have sex with him, but she didn't. He says, why are you lying? Why are you lying?

And she's like, this is a fantasize relationship. It's projection based on transference. Like he's confused the pain and trauma of his past with their intimate corrective therapy, and this is just too much for Robert fully breaks down, like you said, gets up and it's like just tell them you love me, like over and over and over again. He has to be restrained by Benson and Stabler. So now obviously we're at the precinct, and of course a judge has deemed him on fit to proceed.

So there we are with.

That in walks his sister, being like he's unfit because of what this woman did to him. She then has a full boom box in her hand and plays them a tape of doctor Heins. There's a lot of it's two thousand and three, there's still a lot of cassette tapes being you know, bandied about in this episode. So she plays them a tape of doctor Hines sharing some sexy therapy time with Robert. She said she found the tapes in Robert's apartment and they're the ones he stole.

If someone's parents are terrible people, transference could not work, you know what I mean, Like you're taking them back to this horrific thing, Like what do you think is going to happen?

Yeah, And I don't understand why you can't like reparent them, take them back to the time, and then just be like I love you, you're my son.

Like why does it have to be bathtime?

It could be playing in the sandbox, It could be being in a car, it could be going through the drive through, Like it makes no sense that it has to be a tub. It has to be breastfeeding, Like this bitch is twisted, you know what I mean, Like she could think she's doing something medically.

But it's like you can take him back to the playground. He doesn't have to be.

Like, yeah, I'm gonna take you back to when you pissed your pant, Like why.

Why can't it just be a fond birthday party? I don't know.

Maybe maybe he never had those. Maybe the theory is it has.

To be like the worst worst times of your life. I don't know.

I don't know, but he does later talk about some traumatic bath stuff, so maybe that's why.

I really don't know, but it just seems dangerous.

I'm going to hypnotize you and take you back to the most traumatic, awful moments of your childhood where you were not able to comprehend what was happening to you. I'm going to take you to this dark space and then you better behave after.

It makes no sense.

I think that's why people think that hypnosis is a little bit not reliable too, right, I don't know, because you can like event, you can like create memories and stuff.

I think. But anyway, Taylor.

Agrees with you. He does not get this. He's like, I have four kids, I would never talk to them like this. And she's like, I had to regress Robert to the point where he was traumatized and give him the love he never got. So she talked him through breastfeeding, but there was never any contact.

Like, I don't know.

I don't unders stand this because most kids don't remember breastfeeding, except for Kurt bronell Or, who talks about how he does remember being best breastfed and why was he old? Yeah, I think his mom did it for a while. He has a stand up joke about how he remembers doing it, and maybe that's not the best memory to have.

I mean, he turned out fine, but there's got does he talk about any of his side effects.

I don't know that. I just I don't know. Somebody just referenced the bit to me the other day. I actually haven't heard it.

Yeah, we're all about accepting all different types of people and not mom shaming.

But nah, that's disgusting.

If you're someone that wants to breastfeet as your child has full blown memories.

For life, you're a bad person.

You know, I only made it seven months, so I'm not going to argue with you there. Huang says that maybe it's counter transference when a therapist develops feelings for a patient, but they just want to know did she actually have like intercourse with him, and there's no answers to that yet. Finn says, no one from the shooting gallery can I d Robert?

No one puts him there. Bad Ass is in the wind.

Our friend who was at the door named Badass, but Finn just tracked him down, and he says when they go to to him, he's like, I've seen him before passing out needles with this woman, his sister, And so it turns so he goes, she was at the shooting gallery that night and that I thought it was weird because she doesn't usually come by after dark, so now dun dundun a twist?

Why was Christina there?

We cut to a room at the precinct where Benson and Sabler are like double team interrogating Christina. They found her prints on the duct tape used to bind doctor Hinz, and she basically explains, I went crazy when I found the cassette tape. I had lured her to the heroin place because I wanted her to feel as low as my brother had felt.

Like to feel like she had fallen so low.

And then they're like, but she had trauma to her genitals, like you sectually assaulted her, and she's like, no, I just kicked her as hard as I could between her waring legs, so damn. Now, she says she's been watching after Robert since they were seven and their mom died of cancer.

She'll go to jail protecting him.

But if she's going down, doctor Heines is going down too, and she insists on pressing charges and Finn has a funny line where he says if she freudy and slipped it to him, she could do longer than her attacker. That's a funny way to talk about a a therapist having sex with a patient is getting it Fredi and slipped to you. Sorry, I mean it shouldn't happen, but it's a funny way to reference it, Olivia.

They basically figure out that.

Olivia says, because it's Christina's first offense, she'll do a year max. But if the doctor had sex with her patient and it's part of all this, she could do four years to go to jail for having sex with your patients. So why would she do time? Maybe for covering it up? Anyway, Robert could be screwed for life because he and he's the only one who's like a pure victim in this whole thing.

Well, it's got to be a crime.

It's not like the guy is on his she like does magic spells on him, takes him to being a child, and then fox him.

That seems like a crime. Yeah what I man, Yes, no, you're right, that would be.

I wonder how like they could prosecute that because he's like I love.

Her, we're together, you know.

Yeah, but you can't consent. It's like if a doctor fucks of patients. Right, wrong, Yes, no, of course it's wrong.

Of course.

I'm just wondering how it could be like prosecuted, but.

Well, California, it is illegal. Sexual content of any kind between a therapist and a client is unethical and illegal in the state of California.

Oh.

Additionally, with regard.

To former client, sexual contact within two years after termination of therapy is also illegal and unethical.

Whoa good good, good research, Hannah.

I literally just was like, I'm sure you would get disbarred, orse you lose your license or whatever. I just didn't know there was legal implications to it, because people probably have affairs with their therapists like all the time that are not this.

Are you thinking of First Wives Club? I don't know, am I yeah, maybe Marcia?

I mean okay, Like if somebody just like was attracted the therapist it had sex with them, is that a crime?

Yeah, the therapist should not do that.

It is right crime, right, Okay, if a student wants to fuck a teacher, it's still a crime.

No, But a college student can fuck a professor, it's not a crime.

They're adults.

Okay, so you're therapist children, We got it. We'll put it on the merch Caro's child.

I just listen. I am just asking.

I don't think anyone should have any physical contact with their therapists.

I promise.

Anyway, let's move on from me being maybe into pedophilia.

Okay, so it wasn't even pedophilia.

I know you.

You just you said that I was into be therapists having sex with children.

Oh I did. Yes, Okay, wait, let's get back. I don't want to miss this because this is great.

They're talking about how Robert is the only pure victim in all of this, and then Finn goes, that's messed up.

We found it.

We found it. I'd been looking everywhere for like specific places. I know he said it a few times, but this is one place where he says it. Meanwhile, Olivia looks up the whole history of the mom who died of cancer and turns out she died in a house fire. The fire was suspicious because lighter fluid was used as an accelerant, and now they're all thinking maybe Robert set

His mother was a religious fanatic.

She would pull him out of bed and make him pray for his sins, and so like he really needs to, like someone needs to go, like talk him down from this.

So they send Huang.

Huong's talking to Robert and he has like a full revelatory session with this man, like what sins did your mother think you had? And he said I was born a boy. Boys are dirty. She would wash him and hit him in his genitals. She would tie a string around his penis really tight so it would die and fall off, and basically Jess was like sex is evil, That's what makes men bad. And he's freaking out talking to Huong and he's like, I can't talk about it anymore.

His sister.

She did something bad when she was younger, and she was sent away, but she came back that night to save him. That's what we're going into the final scene knowing. So now we're at Riker's and they confront Christina about killing her mom, and she's like, my mom threw me out when I was fourteen. She didn't approve of the guys I was seeing. I never talked to her after that.

And then they're like, what happened. She's like, I got pregnant.

My mother nearly beat me to death and left me with relatives in Minnesota. And they're like, oh, so you came back to save your brother from being abused, and she goes, she wasn't abusing my brother.

She was abusing my son. Twist.

She tore him out of her arms the day he was born, took him in as her own son, and then punished him for seven years for the sins that Christina had committed in her mind, and she just The episode ends with Christina going wouldn't you do the same thing for your son?

Wow? Haunting?

Yes, very hard, And the people said, don't watch SVU.

I bet this was fun to hear this fun twist.

Yeah, you know, it's like listening to a play on the radio or something.

They don't they don't know what's happening.

So to those who don't watch SVU at all, fun twist, huh makes you want to watch.

Like our little radio play.

No, but I am excited to hear you talk about the true crime because I don't really know anything about this.

So the true crime is as elusive or something as the episode. We don't know what happens or why. It's just that he said, she said bonanza. So this is about a psychiatrist named Margaret Bean Bayogue.

I don't know. That's a wild last name, and it's typhonated.

And bioge reminds me of like the Korean meat, the bogogi or whatever. So she's just like, I don't I'm probably gonna call her beans or something throughout the episode. So Margaret Bean Baiogue is a Harvard psychiatrist and she was accused of sexually abusing one of her patients and contributing to his suicide. Yeah, it's sadder than the show.

I don't know.

Yeah, there was like fire and hitting of genitals in the show, so this could be neck and neck.

We don't know. We'll do a poll after what's worse.

So this case is about her therapy methods and that she maybe maybe not became sexually involved with her patient. Paul Lozano, who was a Harvard Medical School student.

A little bit about Paul. He was the.

Youngest of six kids. He was a high school honor student and cross count runner.

He was like truly a genius.

There was all this like information about him at three years old being able to spell, you know, like everyone was like, he's a shining star. I didn't put that in because I don't believe when parents think their kids can do things. But it was written that he was a super They knew he was a genius from age three. And then he did go to West Point and he hated it. Why would you want.

To do that?

My brother went there and did he hate it or love it? I don't think he.

Loved it, But he went into the military. You know.

Yeah, it's just like homeworks hard enough and now you're getting yelled at and having to do physical activity climb lips.

No, it's like he had a girl, his wife was his girlfriend at the time, and like when she came to visit him, I don't even think she could go to his room, you know, like it's like, I don't think they really party or have fun.

No, there is a Simpsons episode where Lisa and Bart go to a military school, and that's funny. It was a great episode and like a really it was a good one. I love when they become friends at the end and you learn about sibling love. But yeah, So he hated West Point and then he went to the University of Texas, al Paso, and then he went to Harvard where he was in a joint MD PhD program.

Wow, I wonder if he knew Neil bar Okay.

So then Paul started therapy with doctor ban Bayogue in nineteen eighty six. He was the son of Mexican immigrants, and he really became lonely and depressed on campus. You know, Harvard, pretty white, pretty not that so I'm sure it can feel isolating. So he sought help from this distinguished psychiatrist on the Harvard clinical staff, and he just had a downward spiral and was repeatedly hospitalized. So up until this therapist chilling, and then as soon as he starts working

That's what I'm thinking.

Yeah, so even though everyone in his like pre college, pre grad school life is like he was great. She said that he tried to kill himself twice as a boy, but not one family friend or family member recalls anything of the sort. Weird And then okay, so some I'm going to preface it before I say anything. From the site, I got a bunch of information from Greensboro dot com.

Is it real? Is it not? I don't know.

It's just like a collection of articles from North Carolina. And I have no idea of the validity.

Of this website.

I wonder why they care about this case in Greensboro, North Carolina.

Maybe because of this college, like maybe it had to maybe they have a psychiatry program. I have no idea, but it was one of the websites, and it says that there are discharge papers issued in the fall of nineteen eighty six after Lasano was treated as an impatient at a hospital in suburban Boston. So that's supports that

That's that.

And obviously there's other professionals who think what she was doing is wrong and that her type of therapy is fucked up and not good. So this isn't like a fully accepted form of therapy, even though she says it is. And she does deny any sexual involvement with mister Losano. He says that she masturbated in front of him and slept with him.

So I don't know.

So he killed himself with a large overdose of cocaine in April of nineteen ninety one after she stopped treating him when he was twenty eight years old. His family found his body on April second, nineteen ninety one, and he showered and sprayed himself with Kevin Klein cologne. He was sitting at his desk with his medical books open, and he injected himself with a lethal dose of cocaine.

Oh okay, so he injected it.

Because when you first said cocaine, I was like, that's like a lot of cocaine to like snort to kill yourself.

But wow, that's a neat yeah. And he obviously knew what he was doing.

And he used an anaesthetic before injecting himself. And a Boston area social worker said, basically, this wasn't like a drug addict who went back to doing tons of drugs and then overdosed accidentally. This was someone that was injecting himself to die. So he was doing the cocaine just to kill himself. He was not a recreational drug user, and there's no way that this was some sort of accident. Because of his lifestyle, he chose this as the way to kill himself.

So the therapist.

Tried to say that he did do drugs and it wasn't a suicide, and all his friends were like, now you're a fucking liar. So there were journals found with him, like in his apartment that the therapists claimed were stolen from her office, and that they were private dream fantasies about Paul and not like a diary. It's not like a journal of what happened, but it was just sexual dreams and fantasy she was having about him, which doesn't seem good either.

If you have that book, then you probably should be like recusing yourself, right, Like, if you're finding yourself doodling about fucking your patient, you should probably be like gotta go.

Oh, But that's the thing she did, and then he killed himself, so it's just tough. But she felt like she was being scapegoaded. The case attracted a ton of national attention, and there's like a Division of Administrative Law Appeals and they're an independent state agency, and they went on record to say that they received so many requests for press credentials they had to move the hearings to a State House auditorium that had a six hundred seat capacity,

It's a very I quit, you can't find moment, beat him to the punch.

She still believes that even though her methods were unorthodox, she really thought it would help him, and she was quoted saying this, which I think is weird. She said, I thought that it would keep him quiet and alive. But it's like, why do you need to keep someone quiet? Yeah, that's that's like a that's that's a very strange thing for someone that's like committed to your well being and thriving in life to say that my goal was to keep you quiet and alive like that. I don't That

The only statement.

She's ever made, but it was from Greensboro dot Com.

I don't know. I just looked it up.

Very real newspaper, very real for the area of Greensboro, North Carolina. It's not the Charlotte Observer is bigger for North Carolina, but it is a very legitimated paper.

If she's from.

There or he's from there or something like why would they give a shit?

But anyway, go on, Well.

I'm glad it's real, and maybe they need to invest in a new internet maker or website designer because the design is out of control.

I kept trying to Google, like is this real? Is this new?

Like like New York Times, that's a paper, you know, the whatever this is?

Greensboro dot com means nothing.

Put a paper, a ledger something at the edge of it. But I'm glad it's legit. So basically, she's only gone on record to have one statement about this case, and she said it is unfortunate and tragic that mister Losano took an accidental cocaine overdose. So what a bitch, you know, like everyone keeps saying, no, it's not accidental. He killed himself, and she just refuses. So that's the only statement that

Yeah.

She did keep seeing patients though, because of a loophole and state law, so she could coach. So that's the whole thing with like therapy and psychiatry and all this. It's like you can still go on coaching or counseling, or if you change your title from psychiatrists to psychotherapist, you can keep working.

So she just can't.

Prescribe medication, but she can still do all the same like stuff she was doing.

Yeah, so it's like dangerous and people like this can keep on working because I mean, my therapist isn't like an MDPHD.

Person is usually like an LCSW or something.

Yeah, so you can go be a social worker case where like you can keep working with patients, which I think is pretty messed up. And then there's a psychologist named Kenneth Pope, and he wrote a book about therapist patient sex stuff, and he estimates that seven to twelve percent of male therapists have sex with their patients compared to two point five to three percent of female therapists, so.

This was very rare.

And she does go on to be like, if I was a man, then none of this would happen.

This is sexism, So that's her.

And these cases are extra hard on top of all the loss and gray matter at all, But these cases are extra hard because the defendants are like usually super educated, and the accusers usually have a.

History of psychiatric problems.

So it just goes to the biases of like that we have inside of ourselves, of who we trust and who's valuable and not. And so a lot of times these cases are hard to through and so that is what Mother is based on.

Yeah, and these are people that can abuse the system if they choose that's crazy.

Wow. Yeah, very educated.

Wow.

And then also, I don't know, have you seen the movie Mother with Debbie Reynolds.

No?

I thought you were going to say the Jennifer Lawrence one. No, I haven't seen Debbie Reynolds.

This came out in nineteen ninety six with like Steve Gutenberg or something that Steve Gutenberg. Who's the other one, Albert melbrook not mel Brooks's son, is it Albrooks?

Albert Brooks? Yeah, Yeah, it's Albert Brooks.

He directed it, he was in it, and I remember seeing it in the movie theater. And I have like a vivid memory of Orrain Sherbert, Like I don't remember the plot or anything, but I remember Orn Sherbert.

I remember seeing that movie on cable.

I think, maybe now that you're doing bringing it up, but I could not tell you a thing about it.

Yeah, neither can I accept the Sherbert moment. There was a Sherbert moment, but it was just a movie I saw alone in the movie theater as a child while my parents and we're in a different theater.

They would do that, Oh yeah, just send you to a kid movie and they go to the other one.

I wouldn't have to be a kid movie.

I I talk about this sometimes in my acts, but like, basically, my parents didn't care about any sort of ratings that didn't occur to them as foreign people. And we went to the cheap movie theater a dollar fifty a ticket, and it was like older run movies. But we went every single week, and they took me the most horrific movies.

Because I had seen Casino in the movie theater.

With that, I mean, I was seeing wild Anything that came out from Speed was my first movie in the movie theater with Speed as a child, first grade, you know, like, and so my whole life up until high school, I didn't go to school dances. We went to the movies every week, and then we would go to Domini's and by groceries. But anyways, so the theater wouldn't let them take me to dead Man Walking, and so then I

This is so fucking funny. Oh my god. The movie theater was just babysitting you. Yeah, I mean, well I was doing work. I mean that's true, you were paying so you were paying your way my way sown bonkers that.

I love that so much, and I love that that the movie theater was like okay, we draw the line.

At the death penalty. Yeah.

And so then it started where like we would go and then we would just see separate movies.

So Mother was one of them. I saw that Rocket wasn't.

Rocketman, wait, the Rocketeer, No, it was Space. It was that Paul you know, the actor. He looks comedian. What is this comedian's fucking name? He's like a weirdo. I was the old, only one in the movie theater. I remember that one. But I saw tons of movies like Alone, while my parents saw other movies. So it wasn't even like child movie, adult movie. It was like if we just had different interests, Wow, we would separate.

Wow.

We just didn't go to the movie that much as a family. I remember us all going to see a Sventura Pet Detective, But I don't have many other memories of family movies besides that, I would take my brothers to go see movies. I would take like all the kids to go see movies.

Yeah, I was right. It was called Rocketman.

It came out in fourteen ninety seven, and it was with Harlan Williams.

Who's that You know him? Oh? You know him? Well?

When you said Rocketman. I only thought of the recent Rocketman with oh.

Yes, and that made me question myself.

But I was well then I was thinking Rocketeer, because that's like a movie from that time, like when you were young, like when we were young.

So I was thinking maybe that was it. But I didn't mean to.

No, I've actually never heard of Rocketeer in my life.

I think, isn't Jennifer Connolly in that anyway? This is amazing.

I love but I love you as just a tiny child going to see whatever movie by yourself. That's really that's really a great I'm having a great visual of it right now.

Yeah. Good to know. I miss all my movie theater friends. I wish. I know they're probably all dead. They were very elsey that theater still exists. You have to go back there. No, it's a shoe carnival.

Oh maybe you can, like you can like separate pets or something and get into the older spirit of working your childhood, your child labor days.

All right, should we get to our interview?

Yes, all right, we're really excited for our guests today. He has been in so many classic movies that have been part of our lives, like Scary Movie, Meet The Parents Kids, Prime House of Wax. But you guys know him from today's episode as Robert Logan. No relation to me and my husband. Please check out our chat with actor John Abraham's.

Well, we're obviously going to talk about SVU, your great performance, classic episode, but I have to start. Prime is one of my favorite movies of all time. I've seen it so many times. I like tried quail eggs because of that movie. But so I have to ask, how was it like throwing pies in people's faces?

Was that a fun part, It's a.

Normal occurrence for me. No, it was. It was amazing.

It was awesome, And I think when I get pied at the end, I think we used like a real whipped cream pie. Usually in movies they do shaving cream, okay, but we use a real whip cream pie. And like it's sort of killed pie for me for whipped cream for a long time, because, like I could, I had like the ghost smell of whipped cream in my nose for you know months.

I just can't believe shaving cream is better than a whipped cream.

Because it's not sticky. I think, got it.

It's easier to clean off, you know, like it just comes right.

Smart Cara, well sticky you obviously, Well maybe this is a good connection.

You had a lot of blood.

You had like an amazing scene and mother, yes we meet you on a stretcher with blood throat yep, how was that for your entrance? And that scene with the detectives and your bloody neck.

Well, it's so funny because I'm sure other guests have told you like it's a very kind of like rocket fast paste that they shoot at. And so I don't remember if that was like my first day, but I remember like it was like, okay, come here, like get on the stretcher, here's some blood, you know whatever. And there's Iced Tea like leaving from shooting another scene and you know whatever. And I was like, oh, okay, cool.

Something, yeah, taking his mic off you.

So you didn't have a lot of scenes with Ice, but you had a lot of scenes with b D. Wong, who we've talked to on the podcast We Love Him.

Well, how was that?

I mean, he's so great. I mean you can tell us if you feel differently, but.

No, it was awesome. And like I was super starstruck by B. D.

Wong, like I grew up, you know, seeing him in all kinds of things and like loved him. And so it was kind of an odd experience, like all of a sudden, like here I am working very intimately and very close with B. D. Wong, and like, you know, I had a couple moments where I was like God, Like, life is just so weird. Yeah, here's here's this dude, and like five minutes ago I knew him from all these movies and now I'm like crying and weeping in his lap.

Yeah, it's like surreal.

Well, and a lot of our guests tell us that booking SVU felt like a write of passes or like a big deal in there life.

It definitely is.

I So, I'm from New York City and I grew up there, and I started acting from New York City and then moved out to Los Angeles when I was about twenty five, and so in like ninety eight or ninety nine, I mean ninety eight, I did an episode of regular Law and Order, which like at the time, yeah, that was a right of passage, like if you're a New York actor, you've got to be on Law and Orders. So I had done that one and that was a

You know sid you had already moved and then came back for SVU or.

I was, yeah, it was early.

I was like, I think that episode was I want to say two thousand and four or three or yeah, maybe five, and I was living in LA And what happened is Neil Bear. I had done a pilot for Neil Bear years before, like in ninety six or seven, for a show called Outreach that was about an outreach building on the Venice boardwalk, and it was like all the people that work at the outreach and I met Neil Bear there and then he just must have liked me.

We've had him on our podcast twice.

We can't get oh awesome making a lot of dreams come true for a lot of people.

I'm glad you're one of them.

But yeah, he's a genius and super rad.

And he he called me up, was like, hey, I you know I always liked you from Outreach and I wonder if you'd be interested in playing this role in this episode of SBU and you know, it's it's sort of intense and there's this whole thing and I was like, of course, I yes, I would love to.

So so, so, how how did you go about your portrayal of this character? Because it really we were talking about it like it felt really you know, you could have gone full Looney Tunes with it, but you really it was a little bit more grounded and understated, Like it made it so that you really made it so that we didn't know whether this woman had actually done something like untoward towards you or whether it was you know, part of the therapy, because you definitely had you know,

Key to that? Like how did you get psyched up to do that?

Yeah?

So I you know, my approach is always to make it real for me, you know, like I have to you know, I have to make it real for me. And I have to do that by kind of like going back through my life and being like, Okay, where can I place whatever person to this and make it you know, have some sort of sense memory or memory from that situation that might lead me to being real in these moments.

I forgot that I flip out in court.

So it's one of the best scenes.

I remember Neil being like, yeah, I want you to do it and sort of like loosely explaining the plot and then like them sending the script and I remember being like, oh, like whoa, this isn't like a walk in the park at all, Like this is like you know, I remember being sort of h yeah, I don't want to say nervous. I was like a bit like overwhelmed by it, you know. I was like, Okay, this is this is a lot of work and it's intense.

Well you couldn't you couldn't tell you you played it. You played it.

Like as cool as you could as a person going through significant mental issue.

Yeah, you know, what the thing is is that, like I feel like the success of a show like that, or even the other law and orders, they are grounded. They're not so cartoony, you know, they're not comic book court dramas. So I guess that's my approach always is like, you know, unless it's called for, don't go the cartoony route, and you know, keep it real.

Yeah, so obviously it is very serious subject matter. You're in it, you do think it's real. But like when you're talking about.

Like suckling on a breast and stuff, was it hard not to laugh?

Yes, because you're nervous.

I because like when I'm nervous, like in those situations, it's hard not to laugh. But like it's very serious when you do those things, like I don't remember it. You know, it wasn't a very jokey tone, you know. I don't feel like any of the cast members, the regular cast members or anybody.

Around is like.

You know, like, oh, you know, you have to take it seriously, like you have to otherwise you're in trouble. And I feel like, you know, there's like if I Remember, there's an amazing amount of like technical concern on shows like that, and I think that's part of.

What makes them great, you know.

And Neil Right has like a medical background and all that stuff. It is like a world renowned doctor before he wrote right, I think he was the consultant on er. Yeah, but like even on the you know, the directing and the photography and all that stuff. Like, I feel like my memory is that everybody's very focused in their own little technical worlds, and so I don't remember a lot of like time for joking around.

It, you know, even to break the ice.

It's like in that's it, in that in the in the context of that episode, you don't really want to joke around and break the ice, you know, like that could take you too far out of it or lead to being cartoony or something.

You know.

It's also interesting you brought up the technical stuff because outside the medical the scene with Umbd Wong, like camera wise, is very technical. They're doing so much circling. Do you remember what it was like to shoot that?

Yes, I totally remember that.

Like you know, we again, right, like when you're shooting on location on Law and Order, it's very fast case because New York City, and it's like these people.

Don't want them on the block too long.

They're like film, film your stupid show, and get off my block, you know. So, but that was on their stages in New Jersey, I think, And uh, I remember like spending more time blocking that scene than you do normally on a scene on.

Any television show.

You know, a lot of times it's like it's pre lit and it's ready to go and this and that.

But yeah, I remember it sort of it felt very stage playish.

Yeah, when we got to that scene, you know, it feels very much like a play. And maybe that's credit due to bde Wong as well, you know, because he's an amazing theater actor.

So had you watched the show at all before you were on it? Like, had you been?

Oh yeah, for sure, for sure. I love Chris Maloney, Like look Chris Brady. Yeah, Like there's nobody better than Chris Maloney.

I was gonna ask, are you more of a Stabler or a Benson person?

But you you did it before.

I love both of them. Actually, I love are you person?

Is that where your Maloney?

That's where my Maloney started? But I used to see him at auditions in New York back then, like in the nineties, you know, I started acting in ninety five.

Like that, So I used to see him at auditions all the time.

I remember seeing him at the audition for American History X Wow. Whoa yeah, and and I was like, he was so in the zone in the waiting room, Like I was like.

Who's this guy? Like he's so real, and like did they just pull this guy? Like he was just so in the zone.

He was like tied in his shoelaces all aggressively and like I was like, Oh, this guy's so interesting.

Uh and so and then I was.

Like, oh, there's that guy like you know on OZ and there's that guy on SVU and.

Yeah, scary movie. Pivotal moment in culture. I feel for sure that changed everything. I remember seeing it with my friend's dad in junior high. We were so embarrassed that he was with us. But for a while, were you known as like the guy that like just a woman into the air.

Oh, I'm still know, I'm still still still still still get that all the time.

Actually, I'm not kidding.

People approach you and all the time about it on the streets.

When people approach me I would say, like a third of the.

Time, it's it's that right, Like it's that it's but they're like, oh, oh, scary movie, and then they look at me like, you know.

Then occasionally I get people that are like, was that real?

I'm like maybe maybe, maybe, just don't you know, maybe not, dude.

I lived in Brooklyn at the time when Scary Movie came out, and.

I would walk down the street and like every day people but.

Bobby, oh my god, oh Bobby, Bobby, you live in the neighborhood home.

I got it all the time. So and I loved it. I mean, I still love it.

You know. I'm so proud of that movie, which just turned twenty one.

Wow, that's awesome this week.

So I want to ask you about the movie Kids. Was that your first thing, because you said you started in ninety five.

I feel like the whole cast of Kids.

Almost was like newly discovered because I remember I grew up in Connecticut and Chloe seven you was discovered. She's from the town next to mine, and we were all like, oh my god, and we wanted to rent that movie and it was like a eagle at all of our video stores because it was so gritty. So I'm dying to hear about your experience on that.

Yeah.

So it was like the first thing I was ever in. And everybody in the film, nobody was an actor. That was by design. They didn't want actors, and you know, it's it's about a lot of those people. Some of them are playing themselves in the movie, albeit with a very you know, well rounded narrative device, which isn't true

Like, do you want to audition for this movie?

And you know, went to open casting calls and like with my best friend and we were like, okay, you know, sure, why not, and like you know, and and then sure enough, they like you know, they cast me, and and.

It was crazy. And I still didn't want to be an actor.

I wasn't like I was in visual arts and like that's what I thought I was going to go to college for and all that stuff. I did not want to be a professional actor. It just wasn't the direction I was going to take.

That switch. The switch was a couple of things.

The switch was I took an improv class in high school and that really, like ch opened the doors for me.

So I was into it creatively, I was into acting.

I just it wasn't the life path I thought I wanted for myself, you know, I.

Didn't want to do that.

Then after Kids came out in ninety five, I got an agent, like an agent called me and was like, hey, I saw you in this movie. You know, do you want to try this out? And I was like no, and I.

Hung a quod and then he called me back. He called me back and.

Was like no, no, I'm a real person, like I'm not you know, I'm not a sleezbag, like I'm serious. And I was like, oh right, well I'll try sure. And then I got dead Man Walking. I was in dead Man Walking. I played Sean Penn's brother, and that was just like a crazy, amazing experience for me. And I was like, oh, well, you know, this door is opening

Well disclaimer to our listeners, it doesn't always work out that way. So some of the approaches you in Washington Square Park just you know, use your judgment. Well, so we were obviously, you know, stalking or IMDb before we came to talk to you, and we wanted to know about Clover, which is a movie you starred in and directed.

Correct, Yeah, story, Yeah.

What's it all about? Where can people see it?

Well?

I think you can see it on Amazon now, it's on Amazon Prime. And uh, it's my second directorial feature. So I've I've I've trademarked Crimty. It's a crimety.

Have you trademarked it?

I have trademarked that.

Wow. Cool, you really did?

I really?

Oh well, I'm I'm a Shark Tank person. So I was like, oh, this is great, good.

For you, but I'm in the process of it. How about that?

So yeah, Crimety trademark copyright twenty.

And I'm noticing that both of your movies star Erica Christiansen.

We're talking, No, you're not.

She Yeah, she's in season nine.

She's in a She's a fucked up FBI agent who ends up killing herself in front of Benson.

Oh my god, So that's like my that's like my sister. Oh really, Oh wow, Yeah, it's like my sister. What a funny coincidence. Yeah, Eric is Eric is the homie for life.

Oh amazing. Did you guys meet just working on stuff for auditions.

Or I think we just met like in the early two thousdands, like like we had the same circle of friends, and you know, we just became friends. And I have a very tight knit group of friends, and we all I try to work with as many of my friends as I can, certainly when I'm directing movies.

Well, didn't the same guy write the two movies you directed? Are? Now?

That's correct, that's like and that's one of my best friends, and you know, very very talented guy, Michael Testone. So yeah, so he you know, he wrote the first two and uh and yeah, and it's it's great. There's a lot of great actors in it. You got Ron Perlman, Chas Palm and Terry, Jessica Zor. Yeah to Sheena Arnold, I could keep going, Mark Weber, Nicole, Elizabeth Berger. I mean there's it's a great cast. It's a big, great cast. Do you like director goodman.

I love it. I love it very much.

And uh, it's more encompassing of my sort of creative interests than just acting alone, So I like it for that reason.

Yeah, that was so fun. He was fun to talk to.

Also, I can't believe that dead Man Walking got two shout outs to this episode.

Oh yeah, that's amazing. Yeah, I'm just saying.

And that best friend that he knew Erica and yeah, like loving each other.

They're for real, for real friends.

Yeah, because you never know in this you know, everyone's like, oh I know this person.

Yeah, everyone's friends in Hollywood.

Baby.

Oh that's actually another thing for my birthday. We went up to the roof of the hotel to have some drinks and the desk people have to let you up into the special elevator and they go, oh, are you here for the comedy show?

And there was a comedy show on the roofs Oh, my god, did you know anyone?

Well, a guy was actually extra familiar, but then kept calling me Liza.

So it was very fun.

But yeah, sou but that was a very very thrilling interview and a very fucked up case. And she didn't seem apologetic in any way, and yeah, I don't know.

And I think what we've learned is that I'm not positive that having SO with your therapist is illegal.

No, just getting a shivial legal and shavial legal. I was just curious.

I think we learned that, Yeah, if you feel like you're having some sexual feelings toward your therapist or anything, that's I think that's okay.

Just get a new therapist.

Because you're not going to be fully honest with them and tell them what's up. It's kind of when Charlotte and Sex and the City gets an ugly divorce because she wanted to get and then you know they've got married. But it was very cute. Is there sex in the City news? They're just working? Yeah, they're just working.

It didn't help, but no, and all at want what was it called? Just like just like that, just like just like that.

Just I'm wondering who we're going to know, like New York actor friends that are going to get little pop up parts.

I mean, usually I keep jealousy in check, but that might be tough for me.

That might be tough. If I see some damn bitch that I don't like in there, I might I won't do.

Anything I'll I don't want to do anything about I'll be happy everyone's working.

Oh yeah, I keep thinking of things I did. No, I don't know.

Yeah, I guess just I saw Cat Collin's show this past weekend, and she's a great performer.

But she's in the Sex and the City show. I'll killer it's completely possible and she will be. Oh, she will be. I guess.

Yeah.

Like I think our only post mortem what we've learned from this episode is yeah, like, uh, oh, don't I mean this go. We can't go into the full Texas abortion band shit, but like, don't shame your fucking daughter for getting pregnant and rip her child away and raise him as your own and try to cut his dick off with a piece of string.

What the fuck?

I know? These anti abortion bullshit things that are happening. It's like I just saw a post that was like God gave up his son. I think he's okay with abortion, but the hoops they go to where it's like God wouldn't want this unborn baby something kill. But if someone rapes you have to give birth to the thing. It just makes no sense, like that your God is wanting children to get I don't get.

Know and your God wants children like in their own filth at the border and and being mistreated there, Like it's just like, yeah, no one cares about these children once they're born.

And anti anti what's pissing me off the most is people equating masks usage to force labor and pregnancy.

It's like these are different. Store is a lot chiller.

You can't get pregnant from somebody sneezing near you, Like, yeah, you know, It's just it's a totally different fucking thing. It's like, this is a public health Like, let's all work together, not invading someone's bodily autonomy.

Maybe if you wanted to, I don't abuse the grand kid and kick your daughter out. Don't be a bad parent, well I have kids, if you're gonna be a bad parent.

But if you listen to our podcast and you don't follow us on Instagram, please go check out our Instagram because we did post like, uh, I believe fifteen different abortion uh pro abortion funds that you can donate to in Texas and help those people.

And then you said that in Instagram. Fucking took it down.

They took down their original posts because I had shared it. In stories, and I was like, oh okay, and now I'm gonna put it in the grid bitches, and.

I just what is what is Instagram doing that they're taking it off?

Yeah, that's what. That's like a super crazy.

Then it popped back up like they wrote me about it, and we're like they wrote about him.

We're like, this is fucked up, and they were like, thank you for supporting us.

So I like, well, because that's the whole shadow band thing, where like people the people that harp the most about like cancel culture, actually people are being shadow band and hidden constantly. Yeah like uh not, and you guys don't care about that cancel.

Yeah, just like yeah, exactly because it happens a lot of sex workers and people that talk about race.

Yes, you're right away where conversations get shadow bands.

But even our girl Carly, you know, she draws naked women sometimes and she like I legit have to sometimes go look for her stuff because it keeps high, Like I have to be like, oh fuck, they really are hardy, Like I go out of my way to go like an engage with her age.

So that yeah, so lame, you gotta do it. Yeah. Yeah, But back to this episode, well, Oh, I didn't know that. What is it? H highway? There was like a term for heroin that I didn't know.

Oh, shooting, shooting, shooting gallery, shooting gallery.

That sounds like art, Like I didn't get it. Yeah, I like photography, shooting gallery. H heroin?

Un over who those boys looked so casual? Who casually does heroin on a win like that? Like, Oh, we're in New York.

Let's do find some heroin? Yeah heroin? Where were they going to go back to the Double Tree in Times Square to shoot up some heroin? It's kind of anyway.

Nobody do heroin or cocaine right now until we get this ventanyl situation under control. That's another fucking not even a post mortem, just a public I'm not judging anybody's drug use or party habits, but just until get those test strips where you can test it or it's just really sad. There's been that actor from the Wire, Omar

It's really fucked and you know the fentanel. I don't know exactly what it is. I'll tell you what it is. What is it? It's I took it. I took it.

They gave it to me for Rosie when I was giving birth, and it was great. When you're using, when it's being measured out by adoptor, it feels amazing because it's like a it's for medicine. It's for like aniseptic anesthetic, like whatever use is like to So I wasn't feeling the pain of my contractions basically. But if it's in these drugs like laced and stuff, one one line can kill you.

But what who's putting it in that? That's what I want to know.

I'm like, if I'm a drug dealer, do I want word on the street being my clients are all dying?

Like, it doesn't make any sense to me.

People are saying, oh, because it'll like if you have cheap if you have cheap product, it'll make the high better and stuff.

But if it's it's not worth it.

If it's killing people, you know what I mean, Like, you can't measure it out the right way.

Yeah, another drug thing.

Is like that family they want some lawsuit that they can ever be charged with any opioid death.

Seven the fucking the Purdue Pharma people. Yeah, yeah, crazy. I watched that on John Oliver. Yeah, it's just too much.

It's too much, like thinking about I was trying to avoid stuff because at a certain point it's just like fuck.

But I did read that the drug dealers who supplied mac Miller with the drugs that killed him, they were prosecuted. So and I have a friend actually who just told me that her cousin just died of an opioid over like a overdose this summer and her parents, his parents were like one of them was like, we're gonna find the guys. We're gonna find the guys, and the mom was like, what is it. It not going to bring him back, Like, you know, it's just so fucking tragic it is, you know.

Anyway, Let's get to what.

Would Sister Peg Do? Because that makes me feel like

And thank you for that, Karen. You're welcome.

And next week's episode will be the book of Esther Season nineteen, episode twenty.

Several people have asked for this baby, so here we are with the goods.

I'm very happy and you know watching on Hulu Peacox. Spend some cash somewhere to the library, a lot.

Of options options. Oh, I was staying at a friend's house and this was so weird. The Hulu it.

Was on auto play, but it would play what anything else? So I was watching drag Race obviously, and it would just play This is Us, like it just decides whatever it wants, We'll come on next.

It wasn't the next episode of the show you watched. It's crazy.

I don't know how they do it. Yeah, they want you to get sucked into a different show. They're like, you might like melodrama, here's this is Us.

Honestly, what I can't wait for is Joel Kim Booster's.

Fire Island movie on Hulu. I can't wait so good. I'm like, can you guys get them? I need it.

I know he's like partying in his stories. I'm like, this looks so good. Truly, every time I've watched his stories, every summer of him in Fire Island, I've been like, I want to be there. So now I'm going to be there when I watch the movie.

It's great.

And they he posted a photo and it was with Margaret Chow and they were all at the beach and she is more tatted.

Than I knew. Oh yes, she's all sleeved up. I didn't know that well, I knew, but I didn't know. Her whole stomach was Oh really Yeah, I was excited. Yeah yeah.

Go check out Joelkimbooster's instagram if you want to see Margaret sinc.

Yeah. Okay, thank you for being here for this chaotic energy.

I hope you enjoyed the app and we appreciate you more.

Than you know. Thanks for listening. Guys, see you next week. That's Messed Up as an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed Up Pod at gmail dot com.

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As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to SBU super fan and our incredible producer, Hannah Kyle Kraton.

And to our sound engineer and personal hero Anali Snilson, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song, to Harley Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thanks to our executive producers Georgia Hardstar, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at exactly Right Media.

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