Mean w/ Kelli Garner

Of the law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories, done done.

Hello, Welcome to another episode of That's Messed Up, an SVU podcast.

I'm Liza Trigger and I'm Kara Klank.

And every week we talk about an episode of SVU, the true crime it is based on, and we have a guest from the episode. And in the beginning, we just we chick chat, we gossip, we get to we pretend we don't talk every other day and text constantly. I like that.

You always have to do like an intro to like and now we're going to talk, Kara, let's talk.

Well, I want to say the word banter, but then I don't. I don't want to say the same thing every day.

I don't know.

It just sucks because Tricksy and Katya for on, have the best intro of any show that's ever existed.

Yeah right, we.

Talk about whatever we want because it's our show and not yours. And I think a lot of people need to take that to heart forever. It's just like it's just the perfect. It's just perfect. They're perfect. We're perfect too. Whatever we've had in a very exciting week, Captain Cragan cause a sturry.

Yeah, thanks to everybody for your positive comments about Kragan. We were also gooped and gag that we got to talk to the Captain himself and it was amazing. Yeah, and the painting. Obviously, people are going crazy for the painting. It's like our most popular Instagram post we've ever boasted.

Yeah, did I make up a word? Is sturry? A word? Sturry? Yeah?

I said everyone was in a sturry? But I don't think that's a word. I don't think that's a word. What's the word about Christmas? Everyone was chill except the mice were stirring, stirring, stirring.

But yeah, but there's no noun of a story, but I think there could be one. Let's keep let's keep using it. Speaking of a story, there was a big story on Twitter this week.

Well, because I was so involved with Craigan and reading everyone's like comments and posts and excitement about it all, I was then facetiming one of our friends at night and she's like, oh, did you see the Twitter commotion about alt right comedy? Like I don't know scandal, and I was like, that is crazy how much Craigan took me out of this, Like I would be knee deep in the comments.

On any other day, you would have been like the top comment on that Twitter feud. And because of Craigan, we were just like living in a different world.

And then our friend messaged me and he goes, oh, are you over Twitter fights? Like have you gone past that? I go, I was fighting about the Weekend super Bowl performance.

I didn't even watch it.

I didn't even see it, and I was just in the comments being like, women are better go fuck yourselves.

He sucks.

Did not watch it like I might even like it. I'm like, no, I loved I don't love to fight on Twitter.

I didn't really watch it.

I mean, I like his music, but I think the thing with the Weekend is his voice is great and he has great music. He could almost be like a Michael Jackson style perform, but he can't dance, so like to watch him perform is kind of boring. It is, you know, so to pick him for the super Bowl it is kind of weird. So Joe Kimboostar our friend.

He has an amazing game where he plays actress or movie star, and you go through famous people and you decide if they're just an actress or a fucking movie star. And I think that can translate into are you a singer or are you a fucking entertainer?

You know what I mean?

Yeah, And anyone that argued with me, they're like, oh, mensuck, what about Prince? I'm like, oh, you mean the greatest of all time? Yeah, you're proving my point. You're proving my point if your example is one of the greatest musicians that has ever graced us.

Yeah, I think I'm right. Yeah, and the exception is not the rule.

Yeah, I just you know, give me a firework, give me a belly shirt, give me a costume, change anything.

I just like, I thought for sure someone else was coming out. I go, someone else is joining in a second, freaking lu Alipa's going to be out there, like and I couldn't believe it that it was just him.

Yeah, And I didn't pay attention to anything. I was moving from a family friend's condo into an airbnb, and I was having mental breakdowns for days.

I was fully not able to handle the stress.

And also it was too cold to do steps, so I walked in circles in the parking garage, but I was listening to podcasts about a meth addict sneaking into someone's home and stabbing everyone in the family.

And I'm like, why am I doing this to myself?

Just alone in a parking garage in Loops, listening to a surprise stabbing, Like I don't I don't know what was wrong with me, but I couldn't stop.

You are a glutton for punishment. That's really psycho. It is very psycho. But yeah, what do you think about the alt right community?

No big fan, No, uh no.

I think it's sad because you know, I came up in New York comedy, and I think it's sad that this alt right sort of cloud has sort of infested New York. You know, I really hope that that's not the case, fully, But.

It's also funny to have the article come out now and nobody is doing comedy except for the deniers, you know, just like I go.

It's like this is a huge problem.

It's like, Okay, we'll fix it as soon as comedy comes back.

Like I don't understand. Yeah, no one's doing stand up right now, no one at all. It is pretty wild.

Except I keep hearing about bad clubs that are letting people do indoor shows and mics and stuff.

I'm like, what a mic? Not worth it?

Well, And you know, we joke about this a lot personally, but like when you see the people that are touring, you're like, that would You're gonna risk death for this.

Guy, you know what I mean?

And a lot of people were You're like, oh, you would never be playing these venues if it was normal times either, Like COVID is your biggest career boost, which is like.

Kind of sad. I don't know.

I'm not naming names. One of the people is a great friend of mine. It's really hard. I don't know, Like the judgment's hard because like, for sometimes I'll see people breaking COVID shit and I'm like, you're the worst person in the world. And then a friend is going to Mexico and I'm like, listen, you deserve it.

You've gone enough.

So I'm a hypocrite on the way. I like forgive people all the time. No, I feel like I have some friends where I think our friendship is going to be changed because of their COVID behavior. Really yeah, Like I feel like I can't ignore how bad some people were during COVID, Like while the rest of us were stuck inside sacrificing, they were just living life that pisses me off.

And they convinced themselves that they're not bad too. I feel that's the thing because I do follow one superstar, porn star Abella Danger, and she's wilding out but she gets tested twice a week. But she on her story goes, listen, I'm reckless. I'm not behaving well, but at least I get tested. And I was like, that's at least better. I kind of liked it. I respected it. I don't

I just like that she admits that she's reckless. Yeah no, yeah, for sure.

I also, this is kind of a bummer, but I do want to mention it.

It's not a bummer.

But I listened to a podcast that Karen and Georgia highlighted called This Is Actually Happening, and I listened to an episode that I think maybe you guys would enjoy, and it was about Amita Swadin. She was a victim of incest. But she's just like an amazing speaker. But she highlighted things that we try to highlight in this show about like the system failing and how hard it is for victims, and she just like, I don't know, she it was just really well done. And she brought

They are doing these things.

We judge like promiscuous teens or people that you know, self harm or get into drugs, but we don't think about what happened to them and what they're coping from.

And this ties into the true crime today, actually, doesn't it.

Yeah, you're right, it's a very smooth save Kara from my depressing fucking I'm.

Not trying to see that.

No, this podcast sounds really great and I would love to listen to it, and I think, honestly, you should maybe switch over to that podcast instead of a funk about addict.

I think, yeah, yes, for when you're doing garage steps, I think let's switch to something a little bit.

Yeah.

And she's a.

Badass and she's been working for victims in the government for over twenty years and went to Georgetown and I followed her on Instagram and stuff. But I was just very interested since we try to talk about these things and then having someone talk about it.

No, that's awesome, that's a great that's a great shout out. And then February continues, it's Black History month.

Lisa, I think you have a few more res.

Yeah, but one that you're going to be really excited about so in thrilling news. I don't think she needs any promo, but Heiding Closet had a song that came out yesterday which is thrilling for me.

That is the soft and supple miscongeniality from season twelve of RuPaul's Drag Race.

For those of you that don't know get into drag music.

It is so fun, especially if you're doing steps, walking, doing anything where you just want to feel uplifted.

Drag music is really really fun. All the queens have great music. Oh it sure is. Yeah.

For Black History Month, I wanted to shout out some fun comedy specials on Netflix that I enjoyed.

Oh great, Yeah, Michelle BUTEU, Oh my gosh, everything Michelle does. Also her book Survival of the Thickest Yeah.

And then Sam Jay was my favorite special of the year. I thought it was great. It was called three in the Morning and it made me laugh a lot. And then this person doesn't need anything, but Wanda Psykes special is so good.

It is.

I mean, she's like a legend, but I.

Yeah, it is happy to help out these upstart comics. Wanda Psychs everybody that's s y k yes.

And I'm really excited.

I don't. I'm not really a reader, but I did buy Rock San Gay's book Bad Feminist, and I'm really hoping that.

I will read. Yes, Liza, get into it because I love her on Twitter. You can do it.

She has enemies, she loves housewives like she is my favorite.

Oh she does. I know, that's right. I know her a lot from uh, from when she's been on Bitch Sesshion and stuff. I love her.

Okay, well, now let's jump into our episode. Let's get into me. All right, let's dive into episode ode seventeen of season five. So we've clipped right along to season five of the show and we're heading towards the exits with episode seventeen. All right, So we start with the discovery of the body, which is like kind of a funny man and a woman who are trying to tow the car and they're having a little bit of like funny banter with each other, which is how these people

I can't imagine New York City toe people noticing caring, yeah, being like.

Oh blood anyway, moving on.

And they had patches on their outfits, and I didn't realize tow truck people like it was like a patches official thing.

It looked like a bout.

They could have been from, like the transportation of the city that tows people, though, like not like a private toe company.

God, its yeah, that does exist. Yeah, I think that exists.

So when the cops get there, they find in the trunk of the car a female with no idea or clothing on. She's had her throat slashed, but she's also covered in like one hundred tiny small cuts. Everything is pre mortem, and it seems like most of it took place actually in the trunk and then she bled out before she froze to death. But it took four hours, so it's like not cigarette burns. Yeah, it's like an

Car, and he just looks like any Yeah, he just looks like a sad dad.

He's like, she told me she was sleeping at her friend's house, Andrea kent. I left a message for her on the answering machine and she called back fifteen minutes later, so like, I knew she was at this house. But then they're realizing that she was probably never at the house. And they interview Andrea's mom and she's like, slept over on a school night, not a chance.

Like she's like, well, they also let her know that this girl is dead, and she goes, oh, my daughter will be upset. Yeah, yeah, yeah, this is your daughter's friend. She's been in your home. I'm sure you've gone out to dinner together.

Any teenager dying in your community, it's like, even if you don't know the person, you're like, oh my god, what a tragedy.

That's horrible, Like this cooldness, because I know that's part of that.

Part of it is on is like people don't care, you know, they kept doing their bartending work. But this is someone that's been in your home and she's like, I'm rushing to work. I have to go to work, talk to my daughter. And it's like you're just sending the police to talk to What the fuck lady? Yeah, it's wonder. I'm not to ruin it in no wonder. Your daughters are fucking lunatics.

Yeah, And it's like these people are always rushing around and it's wants to go to work.

Yeah, why who's rushing to get to work? You know what you can tell them when you get to work. Hey, I was talking to the cops. It's a pretty good excuse, and I want to see I would extend.

Yeah, I want to say most people, even though talking to the cops is not great, but if you're not the one that's being interrogated, if you're just literally being asked for like side information, I think that's probably kind of an exciting part of your day. And these people are like, I gotta go to work, like it just doesn't really know.

I was the FBI called me because of some Twitter drama and I was thrown to answer their questions and another quar your schedule for the FBI yeah, but I was still sassy to him.

He's like, where do you live.

I'm like, I'm not telling you, and it's like it's the f by But yeah, they found my phone number. I'm sure they can figure out where I'm located. Another time, I was excited not talking to a police officer, but I got to do jury duty. Yeah, at the time of my life, I was picked. I got to sit in the jury box. I made everyone laugh a couple of times. I asked answered questions yeah and was. I mean, I loved it.

Look, I understand why being interrogated by the cops. Are being arrested for no reason.

It's bad.

But like if the cops came to me and were like, hey, I just need a little bit of information about your friend Lisa, I'd be like, let's talk.

Yeah.

Like one time I worked at a Harislon and across the street on like half price appetize, someone stabs someone in the neck with a fork in the street. Of course, the cops came. They wanted our surveillance footage, and I was trying to get the school. I wanted to know what was happening. I understand if you're being hounded by the police because you're a person of color and you're living in a neighborhood that they over police and you're

A little bit more. Allison. Absolutely.

So, now we're at the school. I believe it's called Tanner Day. It's clearly like a private school.

And the principle is a used car salesman.

The principle was that, after I've seen in tons of other stuff, he looks like he pays women to step on his balls and like squeeze them and piss in his mouth.

For sure.

Yeah, he seems like that type. So he basically says Emily was well liked, friends with everyone. She was on the homecoming court, a shining star. I just want to point out I was on the homecoming court. It's like a huge part of my life.

I'm just kidding. I don't know why it was. It was kind of a fluke.

Anyway, It's good that I wasn't because I'd still be talking about it.

Sure, I would love it. The way that we found out who was a homecoming queen too, is they gave you all a wrapped flower and then we opened it at the pep rally and like, if you had the red flower, you were.

The homecoming queen. Wow, And I had a white flower. It wasn't me anyway. I was homecoming queen. Thank you you are our producer was homecoming Queen Hannah. I can sort of tell that. I feel like you'd have a good wave. Okay. So at the school we finally we meet Emily's best friends. This is like her little group

Is upsetting too. Yeah.

They say they don't know the number that Emily's dad called, so Stabler completely calls their bluff, runs over to a calls it. Britney's cell phone starts ringing and she's like, I'm sorry, Emily asked me to do it.

Well it's even smarter than that.

Just her cell phone rings, her cell phone herself, and my voicemail has been changed to say like you've reached the Kent family.

Like, so they've fully set it up and I feel as though.

But also it's like, you know, Stabler's about to do a police trick. Why not just confess before you get embarrassed. I mean, this is for cinematic value than you. But these girls just sitting there waiting to be.

Going yeah, and it's like, okay, okay, okay, okay, it's my phone, it's my phone, and.

Who are these the balls on these scenes to lie to the cops?

I know, Well we find out why, I think later. Yeah, it's true and again great acting. Yes, so these girls say that like they helped Emily because she was supposed to go have a big romantic date with this guy who's twenty three. Okay, Meanwhile, I just want to check in on Benson's hair. Her bob has like grown out. It's like a sort of a long bob, perfectly highlighted. And she needs the combination of Emily's locker.

So in Emily's locker they find a signed headshot from a guy named Lucas. I'm like, what is she a dry cleaner? Why is she have headshots of people?

Then what's also funny is Benson goes, what is he an actor?

Yes? Great?

When you say a headshot with a name on it, yeah, it's yeah. So they go to the park to talk to him. He's in some kind of like veggie tails group where they're all dressed up like fruit and they're singing in the park on a rainy day. It looks like the saddest job you have to do to make money. As again, another s few things. So he's dressed as the grapes, so they will grape and they go, we got to talk to the grapes.

But what's wild again?

Where it's like why if I was on a set and the police came to talk to someone, I'd be trying to listen. Yeah, the other fruits just kept dancing, and also how are you going to get the shot without the grape? For Conna Newt, it was just like, I don't know why the director can go take five fruits, Like, I.

Don't understand why they kept dancing.

Well, edit the grapes back in in posts. Yeah, so okay, that's funny.

I never really thought about all of the logistics of it.

But Lisa, that's good, good work, thank you. So the Grapes is this guy named Lucas. He said he didn't know Emily was sixteen. When he found out, he broke it off. Stabler tells us Little Fruits Alibi checked out. So the fruit guy is.

Like, yeah, he said he was on a movie set. Yeah.

So the fruit guy, we think is not part of it any longer. Don't don't hold on. Emily's phone just made a call. They track it to this guy who is at a comic book shop talking to a phone sex operator about Kathleen Turner and how she was really hot when she was thin. I don't know what's going on, but that sounds like the kind of guy who would have attended Cosmic Con Grand Rapids. The other kind of person who would have attended Cosmiccon Grand Rapids my husband,

Sorry to bring it back to the Simpsons, but it means lamb of god, oh Agnes, it does.

Yeah. So Agnes's father is like, I'm not sorry, she's dead. So you get the feeling that Agnes and Emily have like a long history of bullying.

Well Eve.

The dad is like mad that Benson doesn't know the inner politics of high school. He's like, you know, damn well, that bitch isn't friends with my daughter.

And it's like, no, she doesn't. She's a cop, she's not like a social studies teacher.

So the principal pulls Agnes out of class and she she does say she's like the principal just kisses all those girls asses, And I say that, I will say that does happen, Like I think that like principals and teachers definitely get as seduced by popular girls as like the rest of the kids, do, you know, like they don't really see. They're like, she seems like a lovely girl. They don't see like the horrible shit they're doing behind the scenes.

I hate the mentality of like, you know, strengthen out take the bully.

Yeah, and it's like just punish the bullies. So Benson kind of has this nice heart to heart with Agnes where she tells her that she stayed to herself in school, like you have to imagine like a devastatingly beautiful young Mushca Hargetage.

Just sitting alone at lunch because she doesn't want anyone to know her mom's an alcoholic.

But yeah, no, Agnes is not having it.

She's sure okay, Olivia. So basically we find out Emily's been doing all this horrible shit, like started a rumor about Agnes when her mom died that said her mom left because she was so ugly. I mean, that's like just a disgusting Sometimes when I watch these shows, I'm like, I don't think kids can be this cruel, Like on Thirteen Reasons Why, they're all like you got raped, loser, Like it's like I don't think kids are that bad, but maybe I'm just naive and my child's not in

Well, I don't know.

When I was in school, no one ever slapped books out of people's hands, never like slushied people. Like there's all this mean shit into these shows. You egged in school and my cinder costume outside not in school. But I got egged on Halloween. Oh so that's pranky.

It's not like Lisa sucks and we had egg in the hallway. I don't know, it just seems different.

One boy stole my yearbook and drew all these dicks in it and drew like dicks on my face, and I told on him and he had to buy me a new yearbook and then everyone was pissed.

But I'm like, I want my yearbook.

My mom's going to be sad that I have a sharpie dick on my face. Well, I'm not saying kids are not super cool with words. I guess I mean more the physical. Like I never thought kids were getting like beat up when I was in school, But that could have just been my school beat up or.

Like physically harassed anyway we find out, Emily.

Maybe I just keep thinking of more and more stories for my high school being like where did I go to school? Because one time this cousin of someone came in and then found this girl, but found the wrong girl to beat up, wrapped her hair around her head and smashed kept smashing her face into the ground over and over again, and the girl was never the same, sin like truly. And then another girl in junior high someone threw a brick at her head again, never the same after that.

So shit was going down in Skochy.

I don't know.

I went to school in Connecticut. We didn't have that. That seems worse, Like I said, no physical stuff.

And in GBN the one of the other high schoolsy had a great swim team, they had intern like they had national news because of their hazing, and there's like pig shit and a girl sprained her ankle in the woods and it was just I think something was going.

On in the north Shore and I'm I don't know, you need to talk to someone about it. You've not processed it pro I mean, I wish I didn't get egged. It was like a cute outfit, but whatever.

Yeah, okay, so back to this episode, Agnes is basically.

Like we were all friends when we were little.

I don't really know why things changed, and it's like, yeah, things changed because of like hormones and kids becoming assholes. Emily catfished Agnes as a boy she liked texted or like kill herself, like texted her all this horrible stuff. So she was like, the other girls are mean too, but I was Emily's special project. And she's just saying, like, you know, it really bears down on you. You don't want to get out of bed in the morning, and

Oh is that he was the kid?

Yeah?

Oh, and you know he's a bad boy because he has a diamond.

Earring, Yeah, he doesn't give a fuck.

He'll push a girl.

So he basically says it was an accident. And the reason he did it is because Brittany took pictures of Agnes changing in the locker room and sent them around. Now we know from SVU that that kind of counts as as child pornography, but Agnes is eighteen.

Yeah, and they handle that so seemingly because I wanted to say too, like oh, and then I was like no, no, I mentioned they mentioned she's eighteen.

You're right, you're right. So the kid, the younger brother, is like, nobody's protecting my sister. The school's not.

The cops aren't, like she illegally disseminated nude photos, Like what are you going to do about that?

So they go to talk.

To Brittany at the hospital where she's recovering from what looks like a scratch on her forehead from this major attack, and her mom is like, these kids were nothing but nice to that girl, and look what they get for it, Like this is just a total in denial mom. And Brittany's like, shut up, mom, go get the plastic sergeant, and like she talks to her mom, that's a red

Well that's all fine, But how is the mom like still defending the daughter as she's screaming, shut the fuck up, Go get the plastic surgeon, like you dumb bitch. Yeah, And she's like, my daughter is so nice, how dare you right? Like, I don't understand these dumb pair. I don't get it.

So then they show Brittany the photos on the flip phone that she took and all these like this is a classic episode from the two thousands, and the flip phones are really taking me back.

I had such a good flip phone.

It was so sleek and shiny and it flipped and I loved to a razor. No, it was an imitation razor from like Samsung or something.

I was a Nokia girl. Oh, I had a Nokia when I loved abroad. I love snake Anyway.

She said she took the picture of Agnes naked in the gym to get back at her for killing Emily.

So she's like trying to and did this whole act. So we find out from the medical examiner that there.

Was nail polish in the wound, so the killer was probably a female. And then they say or a metrosexual that Stabler says that, I think you're not allowed to say metrosexual anymore, So clearly a relic of an episode.

Yeah, it's just funny what metrosexual was because it just meant like men that bathed.

Yeah, it was like it's like, oh, do you use your hair?

Yeah, And then they find a hair in the duct tape that's color treated super blonde, so that's like kind of leading them back to this group of girls.

Do you know any bottle blondes? And yeah, we know a few.

So Huang is there explaining relational aggression and it's how boys are socialized to show their anger and girls are socialized to be nice. So that's a little bit how these these little clicks show up.

And I love hims like little tidbits like that was really insightful to me because you know, there are those rumors of like girls are so much meaner than boys, and you know, teen girls are the worst, They're the most vicious, and it's it's nice to.

Have a little bit of reasoning why.

Women do fight the way they fight and and you know, right, so they're basically talking about how like, instead of telling you what you did wrong that I don't like because that's not nice, you just ice someone out and get everyone else to turn against her too.

Which girls definitely do that stuff.

All they're passive aggressive and boys are you know, aggressive depressive.

Yeah, so stablers like these little clicks are like the mafia. Nobody knows nothing, so uh, they go talk to us. No, but this is my favorite.

And then Benson the Cop of the Year award goes Actually, I saw a sign for peer councilors while I was at the school.

Let's go talk to them. We didn't have this at my school.

Those are just like other students that like help students with their problems.

I think this is a TV trope because this happens in Daria. I've never heard of a pier counsel.

Yeah.

So they go and talk to this girl and she's like, yeah, these girls are She's like, I like them fine, but they're mean. So then we have this really sweet conversation with Terry, Emily's neighbor. Now this reminds me exactly of Heather's because this is like Betty Finn in Heathers or she takes a friend. Yeah, she's her friend from at home. They were friends when they were little and like their

She was like into meeting new people.

And she admits that she really didn't like Britney and that Emily hooked up with Brittany's boyfriend, Lucas The Grapes. Okay, so The Grapes is back into the episode. We get to Lucas's apartment. He is a struggling actor dressing up as grapes in the middle of Central Park to make money, and he's got a massive apartment with no roommates. I mean, you guys want to talk about the friends apartment being unrealistic, Let's get into some of these SVU apartments.

Well, we know about most people in the entertainment business, rich parents. That's true, Papa could be paying. Yeah, that's true.

That's true.

Brittany apparently asked Lucas to hit on Emily as a friendship test, but Emily was into it, and then lucasays, Brittany freaked out and is a total psycho and he thinks that Brittany poisoned his cat buttons rip buttons. He basically said that the girls called him that night, Britney called them and I said, we're coming by the set, have a case of beer ready, And then when he tried to put the case of beer in the trunk, they all freaked out. So this is getting sketchier and sketchier.

I also am mad that they have not arrested this guy for fucking a harum of teams.

I'm buying beer for teams. Yeah, they have not. Lucas gets off scott free and.

The whole thing of like, but she looked older, Like, I just he's everything I hate.

Yeah, he should have been arrested for statutory grape Oh okay, sorry, he's the grapes.

Okay.

So they arrest these girls the pep rally. They first get the cheerleader and then they pull the other two girls out of the stand. It's kind of amazing. I love I love popular girls getting like severely embarrassed by getting arrested at school, and then Agnes looks pumped as they're leaving.

She's like so exciting.

Mug.

Yeah, they question all the girls separately. They kind of bop around to each one of them. And honestly, the girl that plays Paige has like two lines. I think she's not getting paid as much as the other actresses. They just don't have her say much. I think she's an under five. But they talk about how they asked Emily to go out that night it was Andrea's birthday.

And Brittany's like, it was a joke.

We tied her up and in the duct tape, but somebody else is the one that killed her. Okay, Like all right, that's like you're really pushing it. So they so they say she needed to know you can't do whatever you want. There are rules. You can't steal someone's boyfriend. So that's why they were basically gonna bind her and freak her out. Like she's naked in the back of a car in the middle of winter. I mean, that's not how you teach a friend that there are rules.

Yeah, immediately, you murdered somebody.

Yeah, So the other two girls are basically like, Brittany went psycho, and I can buy that Brittany maybe had cuticle scissors on her, but then they say and then she pulled out a knife. I'm like, she just had a knife on her, Like, okay, she's just carrying one around. And then Brittany tells her mom to shut the hell up again, and then she goes off in interrogation when she finds out that her two friends have flipped on her.

So then they and the defense attorney they have is the oil tycoon Richard gear type.

Brittany has an oil tycoon type lawyer. The lawyer for the other girls are Judy King. Judy came from Orange's New Black, and then the other guy that we just talked about on another The actor's name is ned Eisenberg, and I'm forgetting what the guy. Oh, I'm forgetting what the character's name is. But we know these lawyers, they've been on a couple episodes of the show. They want to sever Page and Andrea's case from Britney's because now it's becoming clear that, like Britney's the mastermind.

Brittany did all the actual violence.

So then her lawyer, of course, is trying to get a deal and one of my favorite quotes comes up and he goes, listen, my client's off her nut.

I love that he.

Goes, She's a fucking lunatic. Let's get these other bitches. Yeah, so we're back with in the judges chambers. It's Judge Petrovsky, one of my faves. They argue that Andrea and Page were under the spell of Brittany, and they're not arguing diminished capacity. They're arguing that they had no free will because they were under the spell of a charismatic, anti social leader. Essentially like what would be like a cult defense, you know, so the mom mentality they said that was

Yeah.

So Petrowski allows it and Brittany makes a deal to tell the journey. Everything goes. I really don't care. I'm getting I am getting the real Malania vibes from her.

She's very I'm happy to test to. Yeah.

Yeah, because this is a sociopath, this is a killer, and this is something that it's so sad someone to die, but it's good that this person's in prison, Like, these are people that should not be on the streets.

So Brittany testifies that the other girls had the opportunity to leave, and that they held her down and they never left, and that when they were done, they just got waffles and then took the train home. They never said stop. She said the other girls were having fun. And then they mentioned later that Brittany bought a knife, so at least she wasn't carrying one around.

I was right.

They did justify later and say she like ran into a shop at night and bought a knife.

And a knife. Yeah.

And so it's like, while Brittany was gone, you could have let little Emily say paper drive away.

You chose not too.

Yeah, So they're calling it small group dynamics. It's when the individual identity fuses with the group and that that.

Is the problem.

That they're interviewing a psychiatrist and that's what she a psychologistcuse me, And she's explaining small group dynamics and saying that this is you see it with cults and with like guys in the army and stuff like that. So intense situations create intense solidarity, and that's the defense they're going for for these girls. So Novak is just insulting them and is like, if you think a teen doesn't have free will, I think she's just weak.

And weakness is not a defense murder. And this is Novaka is a brunette.

If I'm not mistaken, maybe this is it's a darker it's a darker Novak.

Yeah, Novak and a brunette life.

So basically there's a huge twist where these girls you know, you know what I call it, yeah, my l Woods moments, the l Woods moment.

Yeah.

So the Elwoods moment happens when Andrea is on the stand and she mentions it's her birthday and here we go with Novak just gets the light bulb above her head and is like, wait, a minute. Your birthday is in January, so you're a Capricorn, right, what's your birthstone? A garnet And she's like, but you're wearing a class ring and it's say sapphire, that's my birthstone. A September birthday, which is also Emily's birthday.

It's Emily's ring. This bitch wore the ring of the girl she killed to testify in court. Ballsy.

Yeah, so their whole thing is like they're crying, they're sad. Brittany made us. We hate it every moment. Yet I went shopping off her.

Dead body, right, And then she's like, Page gave it to me, and Page is like, you liar, you took her prod of herse. So now we're really getting the idea that these girls just like pillaged the body of their dead friend and that they are all completely psychopaths who are like off their rockers. They all get guilty on all counts. But then now this is my favorite.

There's never a fifteen minute.

Now we just did an episode where you talked about a man who hepta woman as a slave for seven and a half years, and they deliberated for two and a half days, so like, there's definitely that's definitely a fifteen minutes liberation seems wild. So they're guilty on all accounts. And then the cops here that their shots fired at the school. When they get to the school, they've.

Done prettyople standing there being like, well, could are.

You Someone has painted Agnes the pig squealed on a locker and there is the dead body of just a blonde girl on the ground.

It's not a character we've met before. And Agnes is being arrested and there's a dead pig hanging too, Yeah, there was.

They hung a dead pig also on the locker, and Agnes says they went to jail and it didn't even make any difference.

It was never going to stop.

So really this episode is just like an indictment on bullying.

And then we discussed was what if Brittany's in jail with Agnes, and then it really, oh.

It's not it's never going to stop. If you guys end up at the same facility, Are you kidding? I mean that the High Wanta sequel, I want the best Friends in jail.

Well, hopefully agnes Is I think is a boss in jail. Yeah, she runs it in jail and makes Britney's life hell in my fanfic.

And you're a fanfic.

But I think Brittany, like maybe more people would want to fuck her and she's richer so she could like buy them.

Commissary. Yeah, I don't know.

I don't I think Brittany still rules the school in jail.

Yeah. Probably.

I think those sociopaths thrive in jail and the people that are like, oh no, I committed a crime because like I was pushed to it or defense or something, They're not going to rule the school.

Yeah, in jail.

But we're going to take a quick break and we come back. We're going to get to the real crime.

This was based on.

All right, welcome back. I'm going to set the scene. It's the nineties. Yes, the Craft's coming out, Yes, Buffy, the occult is in. Yeah, we're scared of satanic cults. Are there satanic preschools? You know, remnants from the eighties, So that's the vibe of the world. You know, were you a witchy girl. No never, No, you never bought any spell books from Burns and Noble. No, Okay, so I was. I was definitely buying spell books. I was definitely burning stuff in the yard, like mixing stuff.

I want it. Yeah, I was.

I was deep into the way. Yeah, so that's what's happening. But Shanda, we're in August nineteen ninety one. Shanda Share is not that vibe. She loves pop music. She has big ass curls, whole can of hairspray, and she.

Was really close to their mom. They hung out a lot, and she.

Was just she's kind of like the typical teen nineties vibe.

Yeah, looks like a sweet girl.

She did gymnastics, basketball, cheerleading, social butterfly. But this was when she was in Kentucky. She was going to a private school. Her mom decides, let's move closer to your father and stepmother. You love them, you get along, So they moved to Indiana. Shanda's happy, she gets to be with all her family, but she starts in a public school, which is giant. It's so much bigger than our other school. So we're in seventh grade at the new school and

Guy and is like, my friend's breaking up with her. Oh, here's the ring.

And the guy's cousin is this chick, Amanda, And so Amanda is like, what the fuck are you doing to my cousin.

I'm going to.

Protect my fucking cousin. Very new Jersey housewife vibe. So she, you know, they start fighting. Shanda gets shoved, it's a physical altercation, bump on her head and after the fight she was putting attention for a week for.

Giving a ring.

Well they fought, yeah, but this is another thing. And when the teachers do get involved, they punish the wrong.

Yeah, you know, it's like they have the fuck God, I hate everybody deep breath.

I know, do you know what I mean?

Where it's like you get called bad names and you fight back and then your shuble. It's like it's so bad, not that this is what happened, but it just reminded me of adults. So after the fight, she's put in attention for a week. But then Amanda and Shanda actually become friends in attention instead of fighting, and the mom is like, excuse me, you're friends with this bitch who hit you.

I don't like that. And she's like, we get along. And this is classic, like the movie thirteen.

I don't know if you've seen, but any bad Girl team, even in Full House, you know the little the little whatever.

Bad the cousin's name who she becomes friends with Amanda. Yeah, so Amanda and Shanda. Yeah that's cute. I bet they totally said that. Yeah.

Yeah, they had groups called Shamanda. So, but this is really shocking for the early nineties, really thrilling. Amanda is an out lesbian and has a girlfriend named Melinda Lovelace and they're in a relationship. They're sixty well Melinda was held back, so that's why she's in the same grade but older. Okay, so you know they're in a relationship. They're very open about the relationship, which for this time period is pretty exciting to be like teen lesbians out and about.

They got harrass for being gay. They don't give a fuck.

Amanda did break up with Melinda to hang out with Shanda because she realized Shanda's younger and she can control her. She doesn't need Melinda's older energy. She wants to control Shanda. Okay, so you know there's a lot of love letters, compliments, do you like girls? And Shanda's twelve? Oh my god, bt does she's twelve? During this she didn't have a defined sexuality. That's from her mom. I mean, maybe she knew she was gay, like who knows? Or maybe she wasn't.

They don't care.

They continue hanging, but Shanda's mother sees changes. You know, she's failing classes, she's forging her mom's signature, and every time she's in trouble, she's with Amanda.

Her mom tries to ban Amanda. It doesn't work.

I mean we're teno, that's not gonna happen. She also finds the letters. She knows that they're having gay sex. She goes, I actually don't care that she's gay at all. She's like, but she's twelve. Yeah, she's a kid, you know, the seventh grade, and so she's really mad. So she transferred Shanda to a Catholic school to get away from the bad girl, and she said within weeks and new friends, she's trying out for cheerleading, she's busy, and she actually

So she makes it really clear, like.

Amanda is on my grail, get off my jock, get away from me, go to sleep, Okay, So January eleventh, nineteen ninety two, that's where we're at ten forty five am. A local hunter at his favorite spot reports that he found a burned body. It has been three years since the last homicide in this town, so it you know, it shocks the town.

I also want to go backwards a.

Little bit and say that the first black officer in southern Indiana, Curtis Wells, is like a big He's the big investigator in this case, and so you can imagine he's seen some shit.

He's like the.

First black cop and in this whole county of Indiana. I'm sure you know he's seen a lot. And he's he's horrified about this. I mean, he's like crying in these interviews, like I think it was really horrible. You know, they smelled burned flesh. The victim was super burned, and it was just really horrible. And the victims had clenched fists and up in there like she was fighting. She really was fighting. They found a soda bottle with accelerant

What's going on exactly?

And this all happens next to this abandoned house that's called by locals is the Witch's House, very hocus pokes, and teens go there to drink and do demonic shit and probably get fingered, as all teens like to do.

So they're like Winifred's.

So they're like, is are there rituals?

What's going on here?

A distraught teen shows up at the precinct that night at nine to thirty pm.

Her name is Tony. That's pretty fun a girl and the name is Tona.

You know she's I used to know Tony's In the eighties when I was younger, we had like a babysitter named Tony. It was like, I think it was always Intonio, but it was like a cool eighties nickname.

Yeah, it's always like when a girl has a boy's name, it's yeah, fun Joey for Josephine whatever. So Tony Lawrence says she knows something about the murder. So this is January eleventh. The body is found in the morning. I'm taking us back one day to January tenth Shanda. So basically, the dad told her to turn off the TV and go to bed.

At seven am.

When the stepmom wakes up, Shanda's not in her room, and they're like, maybe she's snuck out. They search a few neighborhoods, they can't find her. So, you know, Steve calls the mom and you know, her heart falls to the floor and she rushes to the dad's house and she sees Shanda's purse is on the table and she goes, my daughter would go nowhere without that purse that purses everything to her. Call the police, right fucking now, whoa So they call the police, they file a missing person's report.

Do you what? How are you and helping?

So it's a little suspicious Tony's family, this is the girl who came to give information about the murder. She's a wallflower, good kid, but this good I love this, but this good kid had an evil tale to tell. Okay, they go into the room, they interview her. She's crying so much, she's unhinged. She says, basically, she met a girl last night that was bragging about going to the witch's house and murdering a girl. And she heard the name Shanda. So suddenly, this is what we always want.

With each other.

Yeah, jurisdictions like have no reciprocity, they don't speak to one another.

Yeah, so this is really nice to see that the counties were communicating with each other. So midnight that night, a cop comes to the dazz door and says, Shanda's gone and she has been murdered.

So that sucks.

It's really upsetting, and you know, even more upsetting, she was alive when she was set on fire and she died of smoke and elation.

So that sucks. Yeah, that really sucks.

So Tony says, this girl Hope and her and the other teens that are involved are in a town called Madison, fifty miles away from Shanda's town. So it's like, how do you even know Shanda? And they said they didn't know her and they didn't even have plans to know her.

What happened?

So Hope and Tony are friends from kindergarten, and Hope introduces Tony to Laurie Tackert. She has blonde, short hair and she loves being gothic. So they meet this girl, Laurie, and that's when Laurie asks, Hope, have you asked Tony Y? And Tonia is like, what what are you talking about? And Laurie says, we're going to kill a little girl tonight, and Tony doesn't believe it. She thinks it's a sick joke. She's like, a sure, we're gonna kill a girl tonight,

Okay, so we have one person.

Who wants to kill Shanda, and we have one person who's like, I don't care.

Who I kill, but somebody to die.

So they get to Shanda's house around midnight and to get her out Hope and Tony. Shanda's never met Hope and Tony, and Hope and TONI are like, listen, Amanda's waiting for you.

She wants to see you.

She sent us here to get you to her, and you know it's love, like she did date this girl, like there is a little bit there. She wants to see Amanda. So she leaves with these girls without the car, though without her purse. So she leaves with two girls she's never met to go see Amanda she's had a relationship with and wants to see stuff. She opens the car door, she doesn't recognize any of these girls. She's like, okay, who are you whatever. Then she's like, wait, I want

It's the middle of the night. I don't know, the middle of the night.

It's a car for girls you've never known, and you're going to meet your mean next girlfriend at the witch's house. And I'm not blaming her in any way. I just am surprised she went along with all these red flags. But I guess if I was twelve and people came to pick me up in a car, I'd be like, where to you know?

But that's the thing with these situations.

I'm like, I, You're like, you totally put yourself in these shoes.

You're like, I could see myself doing it.

If someone had like a huge crush on or because I didn't date much of it, but like if it was someone in there, like listen, she's I don't.

But it's also this thing of ignoring your gut. Who knows what.

Shanda was feeling and being like, no, I'll go, I'll try. Yeah, that's the whole thing, and we need to teach everyone constantly, like listen to your intuition, no matter how foolish she being, sometimes fucking follow it.

But we don't know. So she agrees to the trip. There's a twist.

It's not Amanda, it's a Melinda loveless it was Melinda.

It's Melinda. I am shook right now? Yeah, wow, are you impressed with how I played this? You played that? I was like, why are you telling me about LORI? Who are these people? Oh my god? Yeah, it was Melinda. It's Melinda. It's the job. But did Melinda even know that they weren't even together anymore? She didn't care. She was just like, fuck this little two. This is the thing.

Like, that's the thing, with like a lot of this and as he touches on this a lot with so suopass.

Can you rehabilitate? Can you change that?

It's like an ongoing theme of the show, and most you can't. If you feel nothing, you will never feel anything.

Yeah.

Yeah, So is it because this girl is in such a jealous rage or she fucking cares?

She just like, you know, who would be great? This girl who pissed me off this one time? Yeah, Melinda.

They arrest Laurie and Melinda for the murder of this girl less than one day after the murder. So, I know, teens that murder. It takes time to get good at murdering. Like, there's a lot of evidence you think maybe fire takes away evidence, and you know people that are professionals and fire shit are like, no, it creates evidence.

You're you're feeding us constant evidence. Yeah.

And our favorite doctor Michael Badden, forensic pathologist, he always says, like a lot of killers usually they either leave something or take something.

It's very rare. That's something like that. That scene is completely undisturbed.

Yeah, they find a bunch of evidence like they do in the SVU episode. There's blood, hair, weapons, bodily fluids. I mean, the cop was like you could tell she had such a terrible night. And I think SVU handled this adaptation very well in showing that Emily suffered in that car for yrs. Yeah, and so did Shanta unfortunately. So they started investigating exactly what happened. And Melinda, like a lot of times, her father was a monster. She

If they saw those letters and did nothing.

Laurie came from a fundamentalist home and so her rebellion was getting into satan and witches. She loved fire arson, she talked about wanting to burn someone for a very long time.

Oh good, a true bloodlust.

They kept saying Lauri needed to kill Melinda had someone to kill, so they needed someone to lure them. And they really don't think that Hope and that other and Tony knew what it was actually going to happen, Like I don't think they were fully aware of.

Yeah, they needed someone to lure Shanda, and they just were like these if we if the less these girls know, the better, just get her to come out, you know.

Yeah, they just thought it would be like teaching her a lesson, maybe a couple of time, but even still.

It's like, you guys are fucking idiots.

So the two main teens are arrested, but the other two girls are also charged, So all four teens will be charged as adults.

And even Hope in Tony yes, yes.

Because that's the thing. They had multiple times to stop this. Yeah they did not. And you know, I'm sure there's lots of debates about how involved. Like you know, it's how we talk about with like our government now too, where like the moderates that stay silent are the most dangerous. It's not like the most crazy of the people. It's the bystanders, the people that stam.

Could have done some well.

And that's like in the episode, these girls were like, we didn't do anything, and it's like you sat there kind of like loving it, like you didn't do anything.

You know, Yeah, and you know, how do Tony did come to the police.

So, I mean, I wonder if that gives her anything in her trial, but I think yeah.

So, so the two main girls are up for the death penalty. Whoa so to get the death penalty off the table, the girls plead guilty.

Wow.

December nineteen ninety two, the hearings begin, but no girls go to trial.

They all plead guilty. There's absolutely no trial.

You know.

It comes out like Shanda begged and pleaded for her life, like this was a lot of steps. They could have stopped so many times. There's like they're tying rope to Shanda. The girls did nothing. Melinda's punching her. She was like it hurts. They did nothing. They try. Oh god, this is awful. I forgot about this. They tried to slice her throat, but the knife was too dull.

Oh god.

So they strangle her unconscious, throw her in the trunk. They start driving. She's in so much pain for hours. They drive all night and sometimes they stop to beat her. It's morning. She's still alive and she's making too much noise. So they pull over. Laurie gets out and they hit her with a tirn iron on her head.

They laugh about it.

The last stop is they buy the two leaders soda, they fill it with gasoline, and they take her to a row near Madison and they do it. I don't have to explain what they do. The cops are pissed. They're like, there's no hell big enough for these girls. And again another horrifying detail. I'm sorry to have to share this. Her last words were mommy. She was like crying for her mom which they said in the SVU.

We forgot to mention that they did say that nsfe that she cried for her mommy, and the girls laughed.

At that, which is awful.

Well, tell me about their sentences why, I would't know how much they got.

So you know, Laurie and Melinda tried to blame each other. Of course, everyone's on each other. So basically, the two girls, the main girls, are sentenced to sixty years in prison.

Hope sixty years in prison.

Tony was the least involved and got twenty years in prison.

Well, I don't feel bad for.

Any of these people with their sences, obviously, and the dad never recovered and he drank himself to death and is very.

Next Shanda's dad. Yeah, he can.

I mean, losing a child in this way is so hard. Now I do need to update everybody. All four of them are out on parole, all of them, all four wow. Yeah, so they each served like like Melinda got out last Aguess and she served twenty six years. But they're all free, and you can watch interviews of all of them chit chatting and talking.

All over town if you want. I yeah, all four of them are out.

Do you think Glory learned to not like have a bloodlust and pyromaniac tendencies when she was in jail.

I don't know, because the thing is, when I think about it, twenty six years is so long, but it's not long enough.

You were supposed to serve six when you're fifteen. They all got out like forty.

Forties, so they can commit more crimes. Maybe they've learned. I mean, I have no fucking idea. This brings up so many more questions than answers. But the women are out.

I can't these killers are that they're on parole. They're out. Wow.

But I'm glad people are still sitting in jail with weed charges, you know what I mean.

Yeah, let's let these teams out.

Yeah, but you know, tortured and murdered a girl over a whole night, and we have people sitting in jail for you know, drug chargers and people sitting in jail that.

Haven't even been found guilty of acme and yeah, these murderers are out.

So I guess one of the big differences in the case is just like probably the money and the bullying thing, because they were not a posse of girls that were all friends with each other. Were kind of a hodgepodge group. But a lot of the other details like kind of match up with the episode. But this was not in New York City, so it was not like elite private school girls, and it wasn't like girls that were friends.

Yeah, so if you have a teen, maybe sit them down and let them know not to be an accomplice to murder, like teacher kids, to stand up for stuff. I don't know, like hoping to I understand why these two lunatics they are. How you know, but it's the thing. It's like the fucking Holocaust happened. We all sit by. Yeah, I'm part of the problem, but I know I've not sat around as people gotten beat up.

And Lisa is definitely But I also wonder when Tony and Hope because let's say it's switched and they realized, uh oh, yeah, well, how do they know they're not next?

So I also understand the fear, like how do you stand up to these lunatics that could literally just get you next and beat the shit out of you with a tire iron. Yeah, And I just.

Want to say, if anyone wants to watch any of their interviews and you know, see these people they're on YouTube.

Yeah, all right, We're going to take a quick break and we come back. We're gonna have a guest from the show. Really excited for our next guest. This actor has been in the controversial movie Bully These is a big fan, as well as Martin Scorsese's The Aviator and Larsa and The Real Girl.

A real talent.

Yeah, and she was super incredible in the Lifetime movie The Secret Life of Marilyn Monroe.

She was very perfect and looked so much like her.

We are beyond jazzed to talk today with mean girl Britney O'Malley herself, Kelly Garner, can you hear me? Yeah?

So your character SVU is amazing. She yells at her mom. She's not scared of jail. She is a murderer.

How yeah, I don't even know the first question, Well would you?

Can you give us a rundown from like did you audition for this? Or like how did it go?

I one hundred percent auditioned for this, and I had so much confidence. I just knew I was going to get this because I grew up with a sister who's only like two and a half years.

Older than me. We she but we are like extremely dramatic.

So I just grew up in a household where if you did your laundry and your white sweater got dyed red, it was like screaming and crying and it was just my parents somehow miraculously allowed us to just be the he's got a free, wonderful, awful children. So yes, so I auditioned for it. You guys, I think it was one of the first times Law and Order, which shoots in New York, came to LA to cast and I think they came to La to cast for this because they wanted a very specific like valley.

They wanted like blonde bitchy girls.

They wanted blonde bitchy girls. And they came to the right place. They came to Hollywood.

I remember hearing that fact, but this was what sixteen years ago.

So I went in.

I coached with my acting coach at the time when I was little, and he just I think he just gave me really good, great notes where it was just go big or go home, you know, like she goes from being calm and docile to playing a victim to you know, screaming for you know, not even caring that she's being caught, but just doesn't want to go down alone. And so we just had fun playing with going bigger,

You know. And so that's what happened. I booked it. My hair got bleached.

I was going to ask you, was your hair of that color? Or did they like hype it all the way they hyped it?

And here's the thing.

So I did something for this podcast, which is I watched.

The episode, which I had.

Not seen since it came out, and I thought I was going to cringe, but.

You were unpressed.

Well I was, I mean I was so young, but yeah, I mean I was kind of impressed, and I more cringed over like the color of my hair, Like I was like, why did they my hairs like orange and straw?

It's like, what is what?

My theory is that you were the head evil, so you were the most blonde and it went down from there, and the others they had more mousey hair, so you could tell they weren't.

Yeah, because there was one girl in your group, the cheerleader, who like barely got to talk. Like that girl must have not like gotten like an under five rate or something because she barely got to speak.

Yeah, she was definitely a five and with her five lines, she killed it. She was genuinely crying in that scene. And I'm like, do you call the crowd of purse so fun? That was for some time at Ariel Kebble, And that was the first time I went to New York City ever.

And it was winter, right, because like that doesn't the episode start with like the snow eat the bloody snow so it's like that in New York and the winter is like a very specific time to come and see New York for the first time.

Also, it was beautiful, and they put us up at one of those like you know, touristy big hotel hells that bordered the park. Yeah, and I forget which one h and we took like you know, carriage.

Rides in the snow. We were just like living it up. It was. It was really fun.

Well, yeah, I love that you guys got to be like a group of girl guest stars. It's usually just like one killer gets to join, so that must have been fun to have pals that are also been flown in.

And we were wondering, is it wild.

That all this murder started because you guys were fighting over a man dressed as grapes?

Was that shocking?

Oh my god, what is wrong with that grape costume?

By the way, it's a pendulous.

Grape like dangs, weirdness areas. I felt bad for that actor. He was like tried to like cross his arms and be like, you know, look normal.

It was really funny.

Do you have any memories?

We always ask everyone about any Mariska stories iced tea, Any like any moments with the I'm being on set with everyone.

Yes, I remember just being extremely intimidated.

I mean Marishka at that point, I think that was the fourth season or something, and she was just so dialed in and now having been a lead of a television show as an actor, like I just realized how much work that is, Like that is, it's no joke.

You just have no time.

So I remember just not wanting to fuck up and everyone being super sweet, so professional.

But my favorite person on the cast.

Which I should have looked this up last night, is the gentleman Dan Florak.

Yes, thank you.

Yes, he was so so wonderful in those interrogation scenes and really gave me the confidence and the liberty to just like trust my instincts because you can really play in those scenes. And he just could not have been a more giving, wonderful actor. And I've never forgotten how he made me feel, and in fact, sometimes when I don't feel great about myself, like he'll be one of those those voices in my head that like just just remember from him just instilling me.

God, I'm gonna cry. I love Captain Craign for the Wind.

So you were also in the movie Bully, which horrified me when I watched it.

I remember when it came out. I remember like renting it from.

Blockbuster, and you play another killer team kind of yeah, what do you think it is about you?

You know, maybe I'm a psychopath and I'm just not discouraging it. Actually, I think Larry Clark on the set of Bully had had told me a really interesting thing. And I believe I shot Bully, was shot before Law and Order. And I think that's why my hair is so many weird colors, because they had dyed my hair blue from like Manning panic, and I had just it

To drugs or do this thing.

It's better to take someone who has that kind of innocence, which I had at the time I was seventeen, versus somebody who understands that life and to try to get the audience to have empathy for that person.

So you were saying like you and your sister were kind of dramatic together and.

You play still are yeah, yeah, yeah too.

I have a sister too. I got it.

And you play a mean girl in this click of mean girls in this movie. And is there any a part of you that was like that when you were in high school or anything.

Did you have any mean girl tendencies?

I do have mean girl tendencies, but as I got older. When I was in high school, I did not have mean girl tendencies. In fact, I was picked on by the mean girls because I had started acting and was in things that people had seen. So then I was like, oh, like Kelly thinks she's like better than everybody, and like Kelly this, and like so I kind of got that type of shit from the girls who were supposed to be my friends, and then I also have like a really must up mouth for so long. So I just

But no, when I got older, I became a mean girl. And I understand, I get kind of where.

It comes from because being young and successful and then in Hollywood and living in Hollywood, it was hard, and so I could see those tendencies of it was a real need to almost like deflect and defend myself against other people's comments or other people's judgments. And so yeah, I had these years where I knew that I was such a sweet person, but I could see how I would oh god, I don't know.

Yeah, Well, And in the SVU episode, they doctor Hoang talks about how girls are not raised to be aggressive, and so we fight in these passive, aggressive, manipulative ways. So we were still lady like well being mean, and I liked learning.

That It's true. I think we use our female relationships to kind of learn a lot about ourselves and.

It gets It's a tough one, man.

I mean relationships as I got older, I now have some of the.

Most beautiful, healthy female relationships in my life.

But in my early twenties, I just couldn't tell what was real, who wanted something?

Who was, you know, talking shit behind my back?

Who was It was just hard and you're alone and you're scared and you're just trying to figure it out yourself.

Would you do SVU again? Like if they came knocking?

Of course, I think it any one came knocking.

I think it's important to look at the people who want to work with you, even though we all have aspirations and want to, you know, have the people we want to work with. I think it's so important to always look the people who want to work with you. Now, So if that wasn't who see like your value as you are? So yeah, they came knocking, one hundred percent. It's funny because I think it was a couple of years ago.

I went in.

It was with Dick Wolf and it was like a big room for one of his new shows. And it was funny because as soon as I stepped in, they all remember me. It was like the same casting on the same who all remember me from that girl?

You know? And so yeah, of course I would.

They're probably all like, do not mess with her? Yeah, I feel you would have to.

Be a right role.

I could never It's hard. I mean I'll go read for them all the time. But if just me as an FBI agent or anything in that field just seems.

Really like it's like a stretch.

But as like a guest star who's maybe a little unstable, like I can do that, but yeah, to play like the tough cop.

Maybe one day maybe I'll calm.

And be able to like center and yeah.

I do have some nonsview questions if that's okay.

Yeah.

Shoot, So I grew up on some like it hot, and my mom's obsessed with Marilyn Monroe. We have stuff all over the house. I was just like raised on her and you killed it. I mean you totally embodied her. It was insane to watch, and it was just so good. And the wardrobe was so good.

The wardrobe Girsha Phillips.

Yeah, that was like a white little overall shorts thing with like a red and pink pajama tool dress that was so good, and I was just wondering what your experience was playing such a well, first, did you feel like the hottest girl in the world. You're like, oh, I'm being I'm playing marily Monroe.

This is well, Well, there were moments where, yes, you were on set and you were lit and what's guy shot all of Matt Chris Manley shot all of Madmen. So it was just like it looked beautiful, especially for a lifetime film, Like it just like really looked beautiful. And so yeah, there were moments with the wig and the hair and the makeup that you did. I did

Really daunting to play.

But I love Marilyn Monroe. I mean, I just she's intoxicating, and she's a child, and she's a woman in process. You know, she's like trying to be all these things. And I really think too like she had had it rough because she in a time where a woman was trying to be defined. She was almost defining this archetype of woman that is still unsettled.

And then another selfish question I have is Leonardo DiCaprio was my number one crush growing up?

Was that fun? How was that working with him?

That was so much fun? That was so much fun? That was my.

I mean I was in love with him. I was, I mean Roman Juliet, Like I couldn't believe that I was getting to do that. And I was so nervous too because it's Scorsese and it's DiCaprio, and I think I'm in the scene too with like Alec Baldwin at one point, and I got to have all these like private samba lessons with like Leonardo DiCaprio, and like once it had to be with like the dance instructor in his like hotel room, because he'd flown in late from I think, like hanging out.

With Giselle on the weekend.

I was like in Montreal, and I was like, this is crazy. He goes meet me at my hotel, like the dance instructors there, and so you know, I got to do all these private lessons and it was just a dream. And I remember being on set and just almost having a panic attack because I also have dark eye contacts for this role, and every time I would blink, they would just kind of like move and like wash over this like dark color would wash over my eyes, and I was having tunnel vision.

I was having a panic attack.

And there's like real vintage clothes, and I just remember ice I swept so much from my armfits.

I don't know what's wrong with me. I don't know if it's healthy. I just do.

And I remember just being mortified because I had sweat all day. And then at the end of like a fucking nineteen hour day, I had to do this samba with Leonardo Cacaprio in a vintage dress. And you know, if anyone's ever worn a vintage dress and you sweat in it. It just smells like one hundred years of mothballs. And so I'm like dancing with him, and I'm just like, it's not it's not me that smells it just it's the dress.

Like I just want you to know, it's not me, it's the dress. And I was just a young dork.

I was next in the hands of Romeo and just wow, embarrassing. He's so sweet though, He's a very sweet, key, wonderful guy.

Oh my god, what a great interview.

I mean, obviously she love Leonardo DiCaprio too. I wouldn't trust anyone who doesn't didn't have a crush.

Yeah, I stand a down to earth actress. I really feel like she seemed really just like, yeah, I had to samba when I was sweaty with Leonardo DiCaprio.

It's fucking dramatic. It is weird because an aviator, he plays a fucking weirdo. Like I've never seen that movie, so I was kind of letting you take the lead on that.

Also, I loved that we learned facts from Kelly. I didn't know that that was like the first time they went to La to cast.

I thought they never cast it and I didn't think they ever cast in La, but they went out out there looking for blonde bitches and they got what they came for.

And I love that she holds on to Captain Craigan's dam Fork's advice me.

My heart melts it.

Oh.

I love Dan Florik. I'm a Dan floric stand for life.

And I think that's so sweet that like he's the person that like stuck in her head as like one of her voices forever.

That's so cute. Yeah.

I think advice for everyone about that is like when people tell you nice things.

Remember Kelly Gardner. Everyone, let's let's get into our post mortem.

We learned if you're a parent, honestly, Kara, you should let Rosie yell at you, because then she might become a successful actress.

Okay, but she could also be a stabber who takes a bunch, takes a girlfriend on a joy ride, and then stabs her to death because she went out with her grape suited boyfriend. God, I don't know if I'm gonna allow the yelling. I'll see a side. I think I will say.

I learned, don't lie to the police when you know you're about to be caught, like what the phone seeing.

When you're a teenager. Please do not think you're smarter than the police.

You're just not.

Maybe if you're like hiding text messages inside of an app on your phone, it's like they're always going to find it, Like Taru is gonna find it. They're going to find everything you're talking about. I do applaud the changing of the voicemail though. I think that that's like pretty smart for like when your parents call.

That's another lesson.

If you are trying to sneak out, do that, Yeah, switch switch the numbers.

Switch.

But then if you get busted, you got to come clean. The cops are definitely going to find out. Stabler will call your bluff.

Yeah, I mean, I guess this is a lesson for every episode. But it's like, don't kill Yeah, you're going to go to jail. Also, if you steal things from the victim, don't wear it to court.

Yeah, no ring is cute enough to get busted on the stand wearing Also class rings. We're not in the seventies. If no one needs that, no baby, No, we're not. No one needs ring.

If you have a high school ring, go to therapy. Is that something that you're like holding on to and enjoying and wearing.

Yeah, if high school was the best days of your life. I'm sorry about the true crime. It's like, listen to your mother. Don't listen, don't be I don't even don't leave your house in the middle of the night with strangers. Yeah, please don't do that. That was a poor little Shonda Share mistake. I just whoo, keep an eye on teenagers, is all I'm saying. Like a teenager who's known as having a thirst for blood, that's not good. Let's get

Also, when the cops come to talk to you about your friend's daughter being murdered, maybe be up.

Stop walking, Stop walking for five seconds, just pause.

You're wearing a fur can you just at least shed one tier? One tier?

That made me so mad, Like I honestly would gasp for a teenager, I don't know being murdered. Hey, I cry constantly about things I don't know personally at all, And this is like, my daughter will be so bummed. Anyway, I've got to go.

Yesterday, I cried at a montage of Obama being nice to children.

Yesterday I cried at Mawana for the tenth time.

So I don't know what to tell you, Mike, for the threshold for tears is very low these days. All right, now, let's find out what would sister Peg do. This is our weekly segment where we give you a little resource organization piece of reading, something that you can do to get more information on a subject that was touched on in today's episode. And today we'd like to direct your attention to stomp out Bullying dot Org. This was obviously an episode that had a lot to do with the

Or if you're a.

Real housewife who feels personally victimized systematically bullied. Yeah, if you're also a grown woman that owns a wine company for no reason and feels bullied when someone just calls you out, you can also reach out to this org.

Yes, in all seriousness, yeaes stomp out Bullying dot Org. Important organization. Please give it a look. We just want to touch really quickly on an organization that we shouted out a couple weeks ago that one of our guests is involved in.

That's called Prison Fellowship.

Someone brought to our attention that that group has some anti LGBTQ and anti transleadings and that is not something we would want to support. So if you want to check out our show notes this week, we're highlighting lambdillegal dot org, which has a there's an entire list on their website of resources for transgender and gender nonconforming prisoners and their allies, including the ACLU and a lot of other organizations.

So check out this list at the link in our show notes.

Next week, we're gonna be watching season twenty one, episode seven, Counselor. It's Chinatown, an incredible episode, and all episodes, like always are on Hulu and Peacock, and I know we get messages from people all over the world and they're struggling to find it.

So get on a legal site and get to work.

And if you're unable to write down what next week's episode is, don't forget that. We put it in our show notes for today's episode and it will be on our Instagram and Twitter pages on Thursday and we will see you next week.

Hi, That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production. If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover, shoot us an email at That's Messed Up Pod at gmail dot com.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod and on Twitter at messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Clink and at Glitter Cheese. As always, please see our show note for sources and more information.

Thank you so much to our producer and fellow s VI super fan Hannah Kyle Craton.

Thank you to our heroes, Stephen Ray Morris and Annalie Snelson are engineers. To Henry Kaperski Musical Extraordinaire for our theme song. To our artistic Queen, Carly gen Andrews for all of our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia hard Start, Karen Kilgareff, Danielle Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

Listen, subscribe, leave us a review on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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