Manic

Of the Law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies.

These episodes are based on. These are our stories done.

Done, Yay, that's messed up.

An SVU podcast.

My name is Lisa and my name is Kara, and every week we dive into an episode of Law and Order SVU the true crime it's based on. And you know, sometimes we chat with a guest, but sometimes we don't, but first we chit chat together. What's up?

The specials out on Netflix night Owl.

If you haven't watched it, please watch it for meeting there and watch.

It night Owl. One hour of Lisa Trigger doing stand up. It's so crazy, vulnerable, one full hour.

I also want credit that I did not start this episode saying who do who?

I have put that to bed.

I feel happy we have exercised the Carla from you.

Oh my god, have you been seeing one of them days press Like Kiki Palmer, I always loved her and like obviously a SVU alum, but like, she is just so funny and I don't think there's ever been a more charismatic human in the world. That's quick, funny, smart on it not a like we'll call people like I'm just obsessed. No one's existed like her. I love her. I saw it. I saw a movie.

How was it? I liked it. It's really good. I mean it's fun. They have great chemistry, Kiki.

I truly, like you're saying, I would sit and watch her just like shop for shoes online, Like I would watch her do anything. Like she's so funny and charismatic, like you know, but I wanted there to be like more jokes kind of in this. But besides that, I like there's so many funny extra characters. Dwayne Perkins is in it as a really funny character. Janelle James, Kat Williams.

And I really I had a good time. I had a really good time.

But yes, I've been noticing Kiky like fucking smashing it in all these interviews, and she's so funny.

I mean, yeah, probably has a.

Fun movie to see in the theater too, Like, well, I saw it with my friend and we saw in the middle of the day.

We were alone, so we just kind of, oh, oh my god, what a dream.

Yeah, it was like the It was you know, like one thirty in the afternoon and it was the Discount Theater in Pasadena.

So you know, my child, I guess, why is it? But it's a new movie? What it is?

This theater plays all new, They play all news. I took my kids there to see Wicked because I was like, if they walk out after hour and a half, at least I've only paid five dollars a ticket, Like it's great.

I don't know.

They the tickets are five to fifty. I think if you go before sex, oh I have something to say to you. Uh oh no, and another thing.

No, you're gonna be into this because it's something you've loved in the past. I started True Blood, Okay, no one told me it was soft core porn with just like fun restaurant human like chats, Like I'm obsessed, Like I can't believe the fucking is insane. I mean, within ten minutes there's a woman on a hook being fucked by a vampire and I'm like, this wasn't a selling point for anyone for me, like I'm in, I'm in forgot.

I guess I forgot because that was like, you know, I don't know if HBO is still doing that, but that was definitely like the heyday of HBO being like, oh and also there's gonna be crazy fucking like no matter what it's about.

You're right, I should have just known.

But I think I thought it was gonna be a different type of vampire vibe and it wasn't it.

Yeah, it also like it changes a lot, like to the end of the series, Like I'm so interested in your thoughts, like because I like it's great.

I would say it's not like a great show, but I'm I like it. That guy, I didn't realize he had a long career the Stars Guard The Stars Guards a vampire. Oh yeah, Like I didn't really, I didn't know about him.

Really, so that was where I'm I feel like I met him in True Blood. That's how I know him.

But I'm a big Anna Paquin fan.

And one of the guys is actually in the episode Smoked, the guy who's dating Carrie Preston is the guy who is in the like Shelter and like shot.

Yeah, Like I couldn't believe that. I bet people you're going to see so many SVU people. I mean, like it's true Blood. It's like it's like practically OZ crossover level.

But my two issues though, are like the brother of Anna Paquin and the restaurant owner look exactly alike. They're like, both just these guys with blonde I'm like in highlight, I'm like, you should have gotten just a brunette and a blonde.

I can't Sam keep it straight. And the brother look alike. Interesting, Okay, okay.

Yeah, they're like too similar.

I can't. Like now I've got it, but in the beginning, I was like, what the fuck is going on?

Jason, Sam and Jason Yeah, yeah, yeah, But I do love.

This idea where it's like you're discriminating against the vampires. But I'm like, they do seem like they suck, like as people be like they are not cool.

Yeah, it's nuanced, it's nuanced.

Yeah, it's very But Carrie Preston, like I haven't, like she's just so young.

It's crazy too.

Yeah.

I think that's like it must not be where I met met her. But that's like the first thing I watched that she was a regular on too.

I feel I met her in terms of like there was always actresses that are good but not famous, that are nominated for Oscars, and she's one of them. Yeah, Like there's just a few of these women where you're like, ah, one of the best, but like we'll never see her in right like on us, you know what I mean?

She was one of those yeah where it's like, what's this movie?

What?

Okay?

But oh I did just supply, But I did Films to be Buried with Brett Goldstein's podcast, which I was very excited to do. And there's like thirteen questions and it's like pretty intense and obviously I prepped for ever like I was, and I was giving. I was like reading it out loud, but multiple times he went ooh that was a good one.

He goes, oh that that's good.

He goes that's a good answer, And I'm like, this is like and everything I hoped for for all this time. I was like making lists, like organizing for a week and a half two weeks.

Did you talk about movie game in Cinea Matrix on the podcast?

No? I kept it together because they have to start paying me. I can't keep talking about movie grid the way I do. I mention it after we got off because he saw every single movie I said, and I didn't have just one answer for everything. So like he saw every and I go, I'm assuming you've seen every movie for every guest you've had.

So I'm like, how are you seeing all these movies?

I'm like, I want to see a head to head with him and Doug Benson like, do you movies?

Because he just saw every single thing and knew about it, and I.

Was like, he goes, well, I don't watch TV, but I watched movies non stop, but he knew everything. It was pretty So at the end, I go, do you play movie Grid and Cinematrix? He goes yeah, And I told the story because when I first started playing, I messaged Doug Benson about it and I go, it's kind of hard.

He goes, it's easy for me.

So he really bobbed the drag queen to me, and so yeah, like really, I just so, yeah, so knowledgeable.

Oh that's cool, that's really cool. Wait what okay? And he's just like hot with an accent and charming, you know what I mean.

It's like we love. I'd be on a zoom with him. We love Brett Goldstein.

Yeah, maybe I'll watch his show, but I doubt it. I'm never going to get into the Apple TV universe if y'all.

Well, we keep saying that's the only way we don't pay for and Jared keeps.

Being like, we gotta start paying for we go. We don't even have to.

I have so many things I buy that it's like you got three months free all yeah, like everywhere, Like I have every Apple product, Like, so I don't I don't really know.

Yeah, everybody says several slow horses or I want to watch the second season a Bad Sisters, like they're all.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, so much, but I don't know. I was just really proud of myself and it was really good question. You know, it's like my dream, so like that's what great stuff.

Did you see the Oscar nomination Speaking before of Carrie Preston getting knowledged for an Oscar, No.

I've heard, like I just want Demi Moore it to win. I don't care. I don't like. Well, once I saw all the hubbub that like the Challenger's soundtrack was snobbed, I started listening to it and it is just like amazing, Like what the fuck.

I don't know.

Yeah, the Amelia Perez of it all is weird. It doesn't seem like anyone likes it. So it's just confusing.

I guess what is going on because I have not really heard from that many people about it. But like Coffee was vocal saying it was like one of the worst movies she's ever seen.

Yeah, well so I watched this thing on Instagram. But it was like, you know when you watch it and you're like, who are you and what makes you think that you're a professional at any of this? But he was just saying, like the Academy used to be mostly actors and now they opened it up and so like, and it's international, and it's like it's not as craft based or like that's I don't know, I have no idea, Okay, it just seems like everyone's like, oh, it's like a

I want her to win. I hope she wins, that's all I really hope.

It's wild for like a horror movie like that to be nominated for Actress for Best Picture.

It's cool.

It's like a new feels like horror is getting a little bit of a more big foot in the door.

Wow, that's so interesting, you know. Yeah, that's cool.

They never like, I mean, Casey can probably speak to this better, but horror stuff never gets recognized right in Oscars.

Parasite, Yeah, historically, I feel like historically it's been sort of snubbed from the Oscars. But latly the last couple of years, I feel like like the shape of water is sort of horror esque parasite.

Uh sure, but the substance is supposedly like one of the glorious, like those are like more Yeah, but it's not scary.

That's the thing. Like the substance is not scary at all. It's just gross. There's got it. It's not scary. Okay, well I'm too scared.

Wait, this is a great opportunity for Casey to tell us about a new podcast he's hosting.

Oh my god, yes, yes, that's right. I'm hosting a new podcast. It's called Deer Movies. I Love You. It's on the exactly right network that I'm hosting it with. We know that network. I'm hosting it with million Erico,

So give it a little lot of it.

You're one of my You're one of my movie touchstone people that I know has seen everything and I have to ask you about So I think this is perfect.

No, that's fine. I I want you to listen to my episode. I want to see if you're impressed with my option.

I definitely will I'll give you all yeah, I'll listen and no, no, I can just.

Give you my sheep. Yeah, I want a report card. I want yeah, I want to know. I want to impress everyone with my choices. Now, I it was really hard. I should just give you the questionnaire though, too, because I was giving it to everyone. I was blacked out at the bars. I was like corner everyone at the cellar, like I was just so curious about it, Everyone's choices.

I should have you guys on his guests.

We should yours simply show guests.

Yeah, I mean it's not like we don't like need we don't have them every episode, but like the first episode we have Chile was sharp.

Oh wait, that's my friend. How do you know about Schile? What the fuck?

She's really good friends with Millie. And so we bring people on in the guest segment to talk about their film area of expertise, and Chile would came on to talk about Magic Mike and which is got of expertise of mine as well? So but yeah, so yeah, you guys can come on and talk about your area of expertise.

What is I would say Edward Norton Movies in the nineties.

That's Percy's Dear Movies. I love you.

Everybody, go give it a little follow if you don't follow it already.

It's so fucking exciting.

Well, one of the ones, one of the questions on his is like the film that's supposed to be bad but you love and so I had a list of a bunch and I actually went to Rotten Tomatoes and I got both scores and averaged them to get what is actually the worst. And that was really fun too. He's like, Wow, I'm really into your preparation. I'm like, oh yeah, oh yeah, babe.

And it was The Stepford Wives.

It's actually twenty six and thirty for Wow, because that's that you love that most people hate.

Yeah, I'm trying to think what mine would be.

Well, I had a few so huge, okay, so Deep Blue Sea, but actually critics gave it sixty and then it was thirty nine. Human Centipede was forty two and twenty six. Step for Wives, like I said, twenty six thirty. Love Stinks was nineteen and sixty three. Wait, I Love Love Stinks with mel Brooks No with French Stewart and Bridget like Samson.

Oh, it's a different movie I'm thinking of.

Okay, sorry, I was thinking about it with mel Brooks and Leslie and Warren where he he's a billionaire that has to be unhoused for a month in order to win.

His money back. Oh I love that. No, that that can't be the worst I met.

The Sweetest Thing is twenty five and sixty five, and then the Duplex was thirty five and forty, so I went with the twenty six and thirty Stepford Wives.

Casey, what what?

I love Duplex? I love that movie.

Hell yeah, Hell yeah, Kara, have you seen Duplex? No, what's Duplex? It's actually Drew Barrymore and Ben's Stiller and Harvey fire Steam.

Oh yeah, Okay, I don't know it. I look it up. Yeah, it's fine. I mean, I'm glad Casey likes it like it's.

Directed by Danny DeVito it and I.

Think you wonder I love it and it and he also directed Matilda and it feels kind of like an adult Matilda.

I mean, did he direct War of the Roses or no?

Oh? Is he just in it? Let's see? Now this is a movie podcast. By the way, the movie I was thinking of it. Yeah, directed by Danny DeVito. Fuck yeah, I love him damn because that that's like a trigger family classic War of the Roses war.

Yeah, we used to have it.

We taped it off TV on VHS. We had to get scribbled on the side. War of the Roses.

The movie I was thinking of, by the way, is life Stinks.

And I'm having dejavus because I feel like we've had this exact conversation before where You've brought up love stinks and I've been like, oh, the mel Brooks, it's life stinks.

I mean they the funnest questions is like what film thought you thought was the sexiest? But then the side character or is like what should you have not found arousing?

But you do? And I would say it's the most vulnerable I've been on a podcast.

Wow, No, I probably say crazy shit on this for sure, for sure, But oh my god, wait, I do have something to say. So my friend Sophia, Oh you know Sophia. We went to backslize with her. So she's at Live Nation and she's actually like she was like she brought

Jared's was Clint produced the whole thing that Clint was there. Clint was there, He's been there for a week. He produced that whole show.

Okay, so I you know, they had fire, there was pyro, there was a lot of screens, and I mean because we played Call of Cuthulhu during the pandemic, I kind of like understood what was going on. Yeah, but it's truly because I was thinking about people that are dragalongs coming to our live show, Like is it as confusing? And I don't think so because we're recapping a thing. But I would like they would just show a character on the monitors and people would just start losing their shit. Yeah,

Yeah.

Yeah, was Emily Axford in it too? She is she married to one of the other ones. Yes, Emily and Murph.

Yeah.

My apartment, my first apartment in la Emily and Murph lived two doors down for me in that the worst.

You would know all these dungeon Canadian doors, Like in what world wouldn't you have a lot of.

It's a lot of UCB people too, Like yeah, they that's like, well it is because one of the guys I write, I was like, he was in someone's photo with Dan Black, who you're friends with, and they were at the SNEL party.

So I was like, oh my god, because it was like the main guy is charming. And then someone was saying that they did improv classes with him, so I was like, oh, that makes more sense.

It's not just like a I don't want to be like, it's not just a weirdo.

But yeah, yeah, he was my improv teacher get the Brennan.

And he was my improv teacher at UCB.

Oh my god, Oh my god, Like that's so cool. Yeah, I had a really really good time. The girls were my favor and then since it's Madison Square Garden, like a few of them lived out their fantasies and did like some wrestling moves and like, and that was fun. And then also some of the fire was a surprise and so even the players didn't know. Oh but oh, this is what I learned. Since I knew the person on production. I can't believe Clint was there. I wish

Oh, Clint got there a week earlier to get everything in place. He's like, there's so many pieces to this, Like we got a like he was there. I was at his house the night before he was leaving he was packing. I was like, wait, the show's on Friday, you're leaving on Sunday. He's like, it's so much like.

It's but also what I would want to what I would be interested in watching, is like So then I went on the Instagram to kind of stalk everyone and see what's going on, and the main guy does a drag version where it's Bob, Monet, Jujub, and Alaska and they're all playing D and D and it's kind of what we did with Cthulhu and it is so fun and it's like the clip I saw as Jujubi being like, don't you have that bridge over the water? Does it work for acid? And like they're all so I'm like,

Oh my god, have you been watching Traders? No, I'm gonna get into it.

Maybe this afternoon since I'm not feeling so hot, I'll just get into a Trader's thing.

But I need to watch.

I'm not want to be behind another I'm not gonna be behind on another season of Traders.

I'm watching I'm not gonna. I can't. It's it's hit a fever pitch for me. I need to. It's also just such fun view.

But it was also fun watching the podcast thing of not knowing anything because like people were wearing costumes and maybe think of the people that come see us. And February twenty third, we're in DC, baby at the Empires.

Come see us, guys. You have a couple more weeks and we love DC. We'll be doing a new episode that you have not seen us do. We've got new games, so come on down. But yeah, we should we get started.

It's nice.

We didn't even talk about the impending administrations.

No, we didn't even talk about doom. Look at us. We're doing great.

Hello, I mean we've already said hello, we're doing Manic season five, episode two. I'm excited. I'm excited. And it's really timely. I would say, yeah theme thematically.

Yeah, yeah, I mean I would say it's timeless. It's been timely for like twenty years. But yeah, yeah, nothing has changed.

And now that I'm like back into like rewatching old Simpsons, it's like, oh my god, it's like the same comment on stuff old US view. It's like the same fucking conversation. And I can't believe we let it just get worse. And oh my god, oh my god, damn boh, I get buckle up. We got some flashlights. Stabler sees blood on a concrete wall. A uniform cop runs forward. More blood on the wall where basement vibes. It's not a home, it's a huge space. Buckets more blood. Boiler room handle

Then they hurt. Shots fired.

Two dead kids in the gym, naked except for shoes and socks.

This is wild. There's a hostage.

Oh my god. Sailor's like, give us the kid. We won't hurt you. Just let the kid go. Silence. No one says anything. A gunshot. Sailor's not playing games anymore. He kicks down the door. We see the kid. The shooter's gone. They see a window open, finished checking out the window.

We what do we have? We have a culkin. It's Rory.

Rory has he done other stuff like he's the worst of the Culkins.

No, but he's I looked him up, like he's done other stuff. What was like Rory Culkin's big thing.

He was in Signs.

Yeah, and he has done for I mean he's he's steadily working. Like he's got like four credits from twenty twenty four.

Oh, he was in a Black Mirror.

Recently, he was in a bunch of episodes of Under the Banner of Heaven, which was like a pretty people liked it. It was you know, it's about Mormonism and stuff.

Oh yeah, you're right.

Yeah. He was in Castle Rock, which people watched on Hulu. Yeah.

Like, so he's doing stuff, but definitely a more low key Culkin.

But I feel like Kieran was low key until recent Yeah, they've all kind of gone, you know, But I mean mccaullay, what a weird name. Oh he yeah, mccaullay is a weird name. I've never met another McCauley in my life. Yeah, maybe I will. Oh my god, I forgot Karen Culkin was and she's all that.

Damn that's fun.

Oh when he was the little boy and father of the bride, Oh my god, kue.

Okay, back to reality.

Rory. He's been hitting the head. There's blood. Sailor carries him out. He's passed out. We got to help this teenage boy. So we're getting a bus and the bus gets us right into the credits beat beep stop requested.

And now we're in the gym with Cragan. It's all hands on deck.

A witness saw a tall man, white man running away, but that's all we have. And then the bullet only winged the kids, so that's good and he's gonna wake up.

So then we see.

Vury graphic murdered children. They don't really show dead kids like this, even on this show. These dead children are sitting up against the wall. They're not fully covered in a sheet. You see like the blood spatter and the holes in their bodies of blood, and they're naked.

It is kind of crazy. Yeah, it is really crazy. It's season five. I guess it's so weird because it's like in some older there's like a period of time where there's not as much graphic shit on this show, but then now in recent ones, it's like we did watch somebody just like burned alive, So like, I don't know, some of the dead body shots in the earlier seasons are very graphic, like the women in Baggage that we just did. Oh yeah, you know, but yeah, especially kids.

The teacher heard the gun shots went in because it's actually Saturday, So what the fuck? Like, why are people at the school on a Saturday. Yeah, Joey Blaine is the boy. He's in the hospital, and then Luke Rhodes and Tyrell Dent are the dead kids, and they are star basketball players. And then munch goes whoa takeing Hazen to the next level. Have some decorum, have some decorum. These dead children aren't even covered by the sheet. And then they think maybe the kids are there to shoot hoops.

Maybe because the school would be closed, but yeah, you're right, that is crazy. If you guys hear commotion, it's there's something going on in the busy streets. It sounds like landscaping. But it can't be because I live in a concrete jungle, so.

Where dreams are made of. Oh maybe the student's name is Derek Fowler. What student?

Yeah? Yeah, like I already said the other boys' names.

So Derek brought the gun at the same grade as the boys. So bam bam, we're gonna break it into this apartment. The dude is chilling reading the paper and he is being calm as hell. Randy Fowler is the man, and they're like, well, what about Derek, And he goes he's in his room.

Would you give up your kid that fast? Okay?

So then Derek is playing with his cassette player and Finn goes tell.

Us about the gun, and he goes, what gun?

And then the dad screams like, you bitch, you stole my gun, you little prick bitch. I added, but prick it was said, and he's being arrested. The dad's like, don't talk, son, you don't have to say anything. So I love that he's still on his rights. And so you know, we're going to go downtown. He's in cement room and bars, Finn and Craigan are gossiping about him. He lives with his mom usually, but he kept bringing knives to school. He kept getting suspended. Now he's with

Benson comes in.

No rape on the dead boys, even though they were naked, so that's a twist too, but I'm glad they weren't assaulted. But the dad is drunk, the boy had the gun, and then Elliott called Joe Blaine is awake, so a lot of action. We gotta go see if he could pick out the killer and see if it is this expelled gun nut child. So then we meet the mom, Mayor Winningham. She has hundreds of credits. I only know her from this episode, but she's in flannel.

Do you have any oh yeah, I mean just I just know her as like a person who's been in stuff my entire life. But I don't think anything that's ever been super important to me, me specifically, I'm trying to think. I mean, yeah, like Saint almost Fire Turner and Hooch, like she's in all these like old movies. But yeah, nothing that's big in my life. But you know, a working, well known actress. So they're asking who broke the window.

Oh boy, oh boy, shooting bang bang.

He's struggling, and he has a just a square bandage on his head and there's blood going through the bandage. They want info on the man who dragged him and like did all this, and but they just they just need his face. But he looks away, he looks at his mom, and then he draws the janitor's face, and the janitor has a temper. The security guy says, and he did throw a mop at kids, but the kids did fuck with his bucket. So but there's two dead

But he's the only one with keys.

But there are secret backup keys, the security guy says, and obviously the janitor is the only guy who knows about the secret backup keys. So janitor's immediately in cement room bars. This is the most obvious red herring of this show's history. The janitor is nervous and shaky. It wasn't him. It's minute seven of the show. It's not him. Yeah, But they show him the sketch and he goes, I wouldn't hurt Joey, and I just want them to stop

I don't know.

I heard she was wearing Oscar Delaurenta and that made me sad because I always like Oscar Delorenta stuff.

Fuck. Come on, listen. At the end of the day, it's money, business, rich. They don't give a fuck. They don't give a fuck. Yeah, these people don't give a fuck. Fuck everything. I don't even want to leave its own bag anymore. I'm over it. Class warfare. Yeah, keep your America, you dumb bitches. I don't want it. I don't want it.

Yeah, but it's like you are so successful.

But she's like, yeah, back in the day, like you never wanted to be seen as a sellout, and and she goes, that's not really the thing anymore.

Like everyone, Yeah, but.

Chloe Sevigne, we were never going to see you like on a Verizon commercial, you know what I mean, Like she was never going to be like, well I love Chick fil.

A, Like yeah for sure. Yeah, I mean she does fashion stuff. She's just cool girl vibes, you know. But that's funny. That's funny that she's like, oh, my punk days.

Because that's how I'm like, where are the punk rock people? It's like the people that are shown as punk rock are the establishment?

You know.

People think like Rogan's a renegade and he's like so part of all of this, and where are the punk rock people? Yeah, Luigi, that's it, Just Luig it all goes back to Luigi I'm back in the episode I'm back, I'm back. I'm sorry. It's just like it's just a drawing. Man, there's two dead kids, and your son has a drawing of it. So I now get a lawyer and it's dated months before. She's like, he's gentle, nice, you know, typical boy. Mom, But he's just depressed. But he wouldn't

Say if we did, if we did do prison for abandon of your kids, guess who would be pro aborshi all these guys.

The janitor does confess to something though, uh oh, he gave Joey the gun to scare the kids that picked on him, and he knows he made a mistake. He's like, I didn't know it was loaded. Why didn't you check? Why did you give a kid a gun? Like this is crazy? But anyways, we find out that this kid's on a train out of town. They're trying to track them down with schedules. They find him on camera on you know, we're confirmed. Finn calls him a psycho brat.

They're all gonna get him. But much I do love Munch.

Munch is at the scene where the mom is getting out and he goes, I'm gonna wait for backup. He's like the only in the show's history he asks for backup, waits to go in and I bet he would say yes to protective custody and a detail.

Like I just love that Munch was down to chill.

Yeah, But anyways, we see the mom in the sun. They're in a warehouse. There's a lot of boxes. She's trying to protect him. They take them both away and cuffs and they're in separate rooms. They're trying to make him realize that he's in huge trouble. He starts talking about Zoultar and listen obviously, like you know, you have to have a mental break down, Like he's an an unwell boy. This boy is sick. But I I like it goes on too long. It's like so annoying.

Also, Zoltar is the movie in the movie is the machine in the movie Big that turns Tom Hanks from a little boy into a man.

He's like, uh, he's the fortune teller. Well, it's at Coney Islands. I've I've visited Zultar, Oh very much. Oh okay. I like the There's a woman next to him, and I like her better. Of course her fortune are a little more on point Zults.

We are obviously a pro female fortune teller podcast. Of course over Zultar any day. But it's interesting that they just picked this.

I don't know.

There's a million, like made up names you can make about this man who's in your dreams making you kill people, you know, and he.

Chose Zultar, Baby, Vultar.

He says it's the shooter and the drawing, and he starts hitting himself. They're like, zult is gonna and he goes, Zulter is gonna kill you. He thrashing. There's so much thrashing. Stabler's holding him. His lawyer says, we're stopping this. This boy is sick. He can't stand trial. And then, you know, do we believe him, do we not. We got a Benson Huang, you know, spying in. So Huang and Benson believe the boy, and of course Stabler Kragan are questioning

Let's focus on that.

But they do need a confession, and Huang's like, listen, we need to give him food, rest, pencil and paper. Wang's in there and he hasn't slept since Wednesday. It's Saturday. He's thrashing, and I love the word thrashing, I really do. I think that's one of my favorite words. Thrashing. He's on the grates of the windows. I mean, Stabler's just watching the thrashing. There's walking. He didn't want to take the pills, but he had bad nightmares, and the pills,

I'm writing thrashing.

Maybe I'm the problem breathing just tell us so. Anyways, so he put his gun to his head because he wanted to get rid of the voices. That's what happened, and then everything's a blur. He's like, everyone's so mean to me. He starts to cry and he wants to see his mom. So now Craigan and Cabot, and Cabot has fully full fluffy bangs and it's really hard to pay attention to anything. She goes, this is hard, Like he's thirteen, so it should be family court. But it's

I'm going to start, not start all okay, I know, like no, no, no, because I want to. I'm telling you, you want to, like millennial TikTok. Whatever the reason is is that it's just on Peacock and it's not on my cable. If it was on my cable, I would just have it saved on my DVR. I'll be watching it. I'm an old person. I just want it on my fucking cable. But I'm gonna watch it because I'm really interested and I want to watch what Bob does.

And there's a new season of two too.

Oh yes, yes, oh my gosh, there's been a lot happen I now.

So anyways, Cabot runs in. She's screaming into the precinct. Benson and Stabler watch and Huang turns around slowly, and Cabot's like, what the fuck were you thinking handing this case over to Barry Mordoc. So Huang is like, listen, Barry seemed concerned about the boy. I'm concerned about the boy. And she's like, yeah, but you handed him a defense. And she's like, you know, why don't you just publish

The shooting. He goes, oh my god, like you could tell.

You really rattled by the news, and he breaks his ethical work codes immediately. He's like, I actually didn't prescribe the drug, but the boy came in for therapy. I think therapy could have worked for him. But after the second session, HMO said that they wouldn't approve him as a doctor and they wouldn't pay for them. They wouldn't pay for it, but they would pay for the medication. So HMO refused to pay for therapy but paid for the pills. He's like, yeah, therapy is thousands of dollars

Son.

The professional brings up anecdotal evidence in Cabot goes, I thought you were here as a scientist, not as a storyteller. Burn boom, Get out of here, Get out of here. So he's on the stand, the little boy, and he's like, you know, I felt on fire. Nothing could hurt me. I did kill those boys. I wanted to die. I was trying to take my own life, but I was

Okay, So then the little culkin.

Is like, maybe I had the thoughts, but I wouldn't have done it without the drug, And so then it's like who prescribed it?

You know, no one.

He's stuttering, I don't know, I don't know. He's screaming, I don't know. Cabot's like, you wanted it, you stole it. Stop you know, they're they're on a they're on a scream fest. And then the mom gets up and says, I gave it to him. Okay, it was me. Cabot is stunned. Wow, she's wrong. So we're in blind's room, but it's like the dingy one. She told Barry Murdock about the pills and he said it doesn't matter, you know, where,

Fuck you? Oh my god, he's cute.

Everyone said it was okay, and she's like, you know, everyone wanted him to do it, and they're like, well, why not get a prescription. She's like, I didn't want him to get labeled. That follows you for life. And one day came home from work and it was on the steps. So I gave it to him. And she's crying and she's like, I thought no one will know and everything will be okay. She's crying even harder. Now. This is all so heavy, and I feel like her

So what can we do now?

So we go talk to the doctor who like is on the prescription from years ago. So we go talk to him and they're like, well, what's the incentive? And I'm guessing it's money. So we're in Chelsea and he says, that's my signature, but I didn't write or read the letter. And he's like skimming in and sables like, aren't you the least bit pissed off someone could do this? And he's like, listen, it was part of a marketing thing.

He goes, listen, I got paid nothing.

They guaranteed the three month supply of essential drugs for the clinic, and most patients here have no insurance, and if I don't help them, no one will.

She's like, whoa fuck, how's the deal?

You know, how's your deal with the devil going he goes, If it helps poor patients that need the medicine that can't afford it, I'm fine with it, Like and I'm shocked. I didn't expect him to try like that. He was trying to be good, yeah, you know, And.

Yeah that's where they get you, because you're like, oh, I kind of see why you did it, but it's like you would it have been pretty easy also to just tell them, Hey, I'm having this sent to you and like, what do you want it? Sign a consent form. Yeah, it's only a few people. It wouldn't have been that hard.

Damn.

So he's like Aptrel's also a good drug, Like what could have happened? And then he hears what happened and he's, you know, upset, So he gives up the pharmacy wrap. Jane Wellesley so they go find her and she's like fidgeting at the trunk of a luxury station wagon. She has boxes and boxes of Aptril and she's like, oh, I have nothing to say, and Cabot on Fire, like I said in this episode, goes, how do you know what we're gonna ask?

Love it?

She's like no, no, and they use guilt and like what about your kids? We need you to talk and she's like we were very careful and and he goes, no, people are dead, and her face shows some worry and fear. But at the end of it, she goes, I have an appointment, like excuse me. So then she but before she closes the door, cab It catches her and goes, you said we sent it out, so that means the company knew what you were doing. It wasn't just you deciding to like do this marketing scam. And so she

It's full of salses working its way up. But yeah, now it's fucking cyber trucks.

That is true. That is one hundred percent true. It is a cyber truck. So embarrassing. I oh my god, oh my god. But she zooms off with you know in her beamrah pills Cabot nods, she's gonna bring them down. First, she stops at Huang's office for some advice, and she thinks that the direct marketing tactics are directly responsible for Joey's maname, you know mania, which led to the shooting. And this is all fucked and she's like, the trial starts tomorrow. I think I'm gonna win and I don't

I want to get better. She hugs him.

They all cry, and Cabot's now walking out of her office and then knock, knock, knock on the if you want me, but it's Fred Thomas and so and Fred Thomas and is not happy with this deal. He's like, man two for a double murder and he's like, you're just letting Barry win. She's like, no, I got new information. Corporate greed got involved. And then Fred Thompson, I took a photo of this immediately as I was watching it, he says, corporate greed is the beating heart of America.

Alex, Oh my god.

Yeah.

When you said this episode is so timely, I wasn't even thinking about these implications. I was thinking more of just like you know, gun violence in schools. But yes, damn, I'm also this is a Luigi coded episode. I'll make myself a Luigi bracelet. That's what I'll do for myself.

I'll say it again, corporate greed is the beating heart of America. Alex, Ah, god, it is. That is it? It's really corporate greed and racism. Yeah, it's really cool, really concise. The show is incredible. We're so looking so prescient, like the show like predicts the future. Yeah. So, but he wants justice for the two boys, and I do understand that. And then he calls her a bleeding heart, which is like, Cabo, it's not a bleeding heart.

She's a prosecutor.

Like, it's so funny with this nonsense but she he goes, this is nonsense, but she does believe in it. She thinks they are responsible, this drug company, and he goes, fine, then get me justice.

I don't care how high you have to go.

I mean, you don't have to tell Alex twice she will bust into a boardroom at any at a drop of a hat. She goes to find Jane, harasses her to come sit down with Joey's mother. Sandra confronts Jane and he's like, you said it was safe, and I gave it to my son. And she's like, yeah, you shouldn't have done that, you know. And they're like, but you just you just sent it. There was no warnings nothing. The mom is just like upset. She's like, yeah, I

Touching scene, but you know, the classic.

But she begs her like, please, don't you love your children, like, don't let that people just like, don't let this company destroy anymore lives. This moves Jane. She's teary eyed. I can't take Cabot seriously with these bangs. She says you Jane says, do what do you want from me? And then one of our favorite tropes, well you know what she wants. I'm so excited, big business meeting giant, like you know, building in the sky of view windows suits.

Lol?

And they're like, fuck you bitch, and so yeah, they're like you sign an okay, this marketing we found evan and so yeah. So the mom finally was guilted into sharing all of the evidence that showed the company new He okayed the marketing plan, he oh, is okay getting patient lists, and Stabler is arresting him and I love a rich man not being able to talk his way out of something and he goes, stop it, you're hurting me.

And that is that.

I mean.

The sad part is like every time this show does give you a little boost of like Sarah Chnin kind of whereen when they arrest like a big pharmacy guy or whatever. But you know, those fucking guys never go to jail, Like, they never ever go to jail. They never get purp walked out in the middle of a board meeting like we're gonna find out more, but like it's just, oh, I want to see it, but it doesn't happen.

And that's why Luigi matters.

Into his own hands allegedly allegedly alleged him.

But somebody did. Somebody did when they got that guy.

Okay, let's get into the real cases.

There's a few little cases.

What there was a story just about the bad wig that was that was the true crime of the episode.

So we'll start in like kind of chronologically in how the episode lays out with a school shooting on February twenty sixth of nineteen ninety two, fifteen year old Khalil Sumpter shot Ian Moore, age seventeen, and Tyrone Sinkler, aged sixteen, dead in the hallways of their high school, which was Thomas Jefferson High School in East New York, which is a section of Brooklyn. At this time, guns are running rampant on the streets of East New York.

People are killing people who look at them the wrong way.

Like it is a bad it's a bad time moment in time for this area, and guns are everywhere. On the day of the killings, actually about an hour later, Mayor David Dinkin was scheduled to visit the school to tell the kids to stay.

Off drugs and stay away from guns. And the hour before the shooting happens. What so did the guys, Like, did the student here, that's the talk. No, he he didn't come.

They canceled the visit because of this, you know, you know, like there was a huge issue at the school, like a double homicide.

And I thought I heard Dinkin's message and said that's a like fuck that guy.

Yeah, and like the like, this is a neighborhood where a lot of teens have records. The New York Times wrote about the three boys involved. Quote, none of the youths qualified as full fledged hoodlums, so I wouldn't use that word. That's the Times from the early nineties saying that, but all these boys had records, but they were like not anything super serious. Like, they had records, but they

To steal it. So these guys hate each other.

Ultimately, Khalil was too scared to really start an altercation with Tyrone, who was very big, but they'd all they'd go all out on harassing Ian, who had recently lost a bunch of weight due to an operation, which is sad and Khalil claims that in the days leading up to the killing, Tyrone threatened him and his family and shot at him on the street, but there was never any evidence that turned up that Tyrone or Ian had guns. And the prosecution thought that Khalil was making up that story.

I was pushed into it.

So he was facing a max of three and a third years to ten years each for each of the two manslaughter convictions, and he would have gotten nine to life for each if he had it, if they hadn't immediately lowered the charge to manslaughter.

He did get the max.

He got six and two thirds years to twenty years in prison, which is the longest possible term for someone guilty of two counts of manslaughter committed at the age of fifteen. So I don't know when he got out. I mean, this happened in the nineties, so he would have gone out already. But I looked him up in the I looked his name up in the Uh maybe his name is somehow changed in these because he's only fifteen.

I don't think so.

But he's not in the inmate look up even though they have people that have left. So I don't know why I couldn't find him in the inmate look up. But he's out now he should be, so that I wonder.

Because he's a juvenile, doesn't SV like those records get expunged or like yeah, or you can't follow along or they get sealed.

But that's also just from episodes.

Yeah, but he also does go to prison, so I wonder if they tried him as an adult, like he doesn't go to a juvenile facility. I don't know, I have no idea, but that just is like where they drew some of the bar getting the gun because the kids are making, you know, like the storyline at the beginning. Then they obviously referenced Columbine directly, which occurred in April of nineteen ninety nine and is one of the most infamous school shootings in US history. I'm not going to

Thank you for your service.

They were You're welcome, but they were one of the only places that had like a specific article about the medication that this kid was on. So according to the Washington Post, quote it's praised by health professionals as an important tool in the treatment of an inherited disorder end quote, it's supposed to help curb recurring in irrational thoughts, impulses, images, you know, a lot of the symptoms of OCD. The

Jerry L.

Russian, a University of North Carolina pediatrician who studies serotonin drugs, told The Washington Posts that patients who stopped taking the drugs typically experience withdrawals, including agitation and anxiety, but didn't get into whether it was, you know, a suicidal ideation

I hope I'm saying that right.

Neurontin, and which Park Davis, by the way, is now Pfizer, So I don't know, but it's Pfizer now. So Neuronton was an FDA approved secondary course of treatment for epilepsy.

Okay, it's an epilepsy drug.

But uh oh, capitalism is the beating heart of America. It's not making enough money as an epilepsy drug. We don't have enough people with epilepsy or whatever. It's not making enough money, so they're like, let's promote it for additional indications, like for additional medical layeds.

Yes, exactly. So the drug was not.

A few party that knew that I actually really am I was just looking up what that was, which is not illegal. It's not illegal to prescribe off label. I didn't know that. So the drug was not approved by the FDA for any of these things, and there was little to no evidence that it even helped these things.

But I guess some of these doctors were.

Park Davis had hired ad agencies and marketing firms to write articles about, oh sorry, gabapentin is also the name of this drug. So they had hired marketing firms and ad agencies to write these articles about Wow, You're gonna love gabapentin, and then recruited physicians and paid them to sign their names on the articles. Even though they were ghost written by probably people that aren't even medical professionals.

To like a lot of this. When I was reading these articles about this, I was like, what is going on?

But I think the summary judgment was thrown out and it was settled.

It was settled.

And how much he got four hundred and thirty million dollars to resolve criminal and civil liability related to the off label promotion of narontan.

I don't know if.

He got that or if that was, but it was it was like they had they had violated the False Claims Act. So there's a lot of like medical health insurance mombo jumbo in this that I could don't really sift through, but I think I gave you, like the basic you know, the part of this that they drew from was like the pharmaceutical companies acting shady and trying to make more money on medications.

I was just like, why can't it be enough, like the greed, Like I just can't believe it's that crazy.

I know, I know it's really bad.

And yeah, as you like so ahead of the time, like that is so fuck that, like kids could get better with therapy, and they're just like, no, medications are way easier than us paying like expensive therapists for years on end, you know, like they have no.

There's no depths to their depravity. Yeah.

Yeah, Well we don't have a guest for this one, so we can just move on to recapping how depressing this talking.

About or are we just dug about Luigi? All right? So obviously, I.

Mean so timely. Can you fucking imagine we're doing making manic that's crazy, I know, crazy in the scope of you know, in the world of Luigi. Yeah, but they're suppressing the shit out of the story and everyone thinks that I'm being crazy, and I'm just like, you don't like this is the case, Like this is such a big case. The fact that it's not in the news cycle is crazy. Why is like I don't understand.

Like I'm like, I'm wondering if it's like, Okay, it absolutely could be like suppression on purpose. It's also like is it one of those things where like we research some of these murders that happened like at the same time as Scott Peterson was happening, so they got eclipsed, Like is it everything that's happening with the world is just like eclipsing the Luigi stuff, Like I know, because we're still talking about Blake Lively and Justin Baldoni, you

This is like specific purposeful suppression.

And I'm scared they're gonna like do.

A gag order or something for the case, like that would be terrible. Yeah, but we just need to move forward to it. And the thing is like all the like Luigi instagram's are just like I want to know what maniacs like I do think I'm one of the more normal of the Luigi.

Heads, and like the edits are creepy.

The edits are weird and it's like, I don't want to see a Science Fare photos from seventeen. I'm like, this is weird. I'm like, you guys are weird. Shit stop you know, yeah, but maybe they're keeping quiet well, so I'm gonna just request her. The attorney is on Instagram as a private account, like, do you think Karen will follow?

Let me follow her?

I mean, I wish that they didn't change blue check marks.

It fucking pisses me off.

Are like I used to actually mean something so like it would be make you credible, and now it doesn't.

And that's like so fucking annoying. It's crazy.

I didn't think Instagram was gonna do it, but Zuckerberg's doing everything Elon does now, so bye bye confirming.

Your identity asers.

The only thing I would say about everything is like, I'm at the I'm at these things comics like I posted this on my stories too, but like, what happened to being punk rock?

What happened?

Really fucking saying something like I'm so sick of these dudes going on stage towing the like making these like both sides. There was a fucking comic that went on stage and did abortion material. I was like, well, you know, it is taking a life, which I'm not. And I'm like, are you fucking kidding me? I'm gonna confront and be like, you know, shouldn't be saying this shit on stage, like our rights are being taken away. And what's crazy is I was. I got into a fucking debate. I couldn't

Our society like in America.

In America, I'm like, it would be weird, and he was like, oh, I didn't even think about that.

So I did feel good that. I was like, what are you talking about?

But it is like if that's your experience as a black person, like I it's just because you know about my Special. I was like talking to George Sivus about this and it was on their podcast.

But like I was like, you know, Netflix, as a joke.

I wanted to call my Special dumb bitch and they're like that actually slays and is so funny and it would catch attention. I go, no, I know, but like I can't call myself a dumb bitch in this world,

You know.

It's like things are serious and it's everywhere, and I just can't believe you would go on stage and like, well, Biden's old.

To fuck you.

There's Nazis, there's highlers, like fuck you. Comedy used to be so fucking cool and like fuck the system, and now it's just like these complicit, fucking losers, and I'm disgusted with the people I perfer around.

Yeah, comedy used to be too bad.

Yeah, Richard Pryor fucking on crack sucking dick, that's what I miss.

We still have.

We have you.

Okay, So this is fucked up and obviously very fucked I mean, I don't know, the woman's so relevant, it's still relevant.

But also the woman in the episode.

Oh you know, how I know the woman in the episode. She's on fucking Broadway right now, she's in Cult of Love.

Oh May wading you? Yes? I was like, why do I know her face? Fuck?

Oh yeah, but you know I don't love her just giving her kid a medication that a doctor hasn't talked to her about, but this is it's.

Baloney, making her feel bad. Oh you didn't want to lose your job? Are you fucking crazy? So Gracey? Men just leaving families. Men need to be fucking If you leave your family and you do not financially or like presently support your family, you should be in prison.

Yeah. Men should be in prison if you don't take her or like yeah, or you work it off.

You work it off in a labor camp and the money goes to your your wife and.

He gets just leave and she needs to take care of this wild kid and and then I don't know, but I felt for her when she goes.

I mean, what could go wrong? Cries Thank God? Life is so hard for so many people. Yeah. Yeah, and it still.

Is to not be able to afford medication for your to like finally get therapy and try to help your kid, and you can't afford it.

The fuck is that? Let's get into what would Sister peg Do?

This is our weekly segment where we try to give you more information about the topics that we're broached in today's episode. And today we'd like to point you to Brady United Against Gun Violence. This is the oldest gun violence prevention group. It is founded and led by survivors of gun violence, and they have a three point strategy of policy reform, industry oversight, and actively changing gun culture in the country. So for more information on that or

Yeah and the next week's episode and we recorded it.

I know we did. I have no recollection what this is, but we did.

Solving for the Unknowns Season twenty one, episode nineteen. Join us because I'll find out what we did. You'll find out what we did. It'll be perfect.

Thank you guys. So much for listening. We'll see you next week. Bye.

That's Messed Up as an Exactly Right production.

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To our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song and Carly Jean Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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