Man Up & Man Down w/ Philip Winchester

Of the law and Order franchises, SVU is considered especially watchable.

We are the amateur detectives who kind of investigate the vicious felonies. These episodes are based on.

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Done done.

Hello, welcome back to That's Messed Up.

I'm Kara and I'm Lisa, and here we talk about SVU True Crime. We have celeb guests today. As a real barn burner totally. That's a saying I know from big business, but I actually am here to confront Kara and Casey. Uh oh, yeah, that's what we're starting with. I got cards, Yeah, yeah, that's the cards. I got a lot of dms that you guys are gaslighting me that of course I've mentioned it, and that you're gas lighters.

Cue the Dixie Chicks.

No.

A couple people a gasler.

A couple of people said, wait, I don't remember Lisa talking about the cards either, And I've been a Day one listener and.

I was like, what is happening is there?

Like like, I'm sorry, as you talked about it more, I was like, I do remember something about this.

But then when you did say, I go, when did you start this?

You go December? It had only been six months. It wasn't like we've been talking about it for years.

I just what do you have to say.

I'm just I'm shocked to hear this information. You know, I listen intently to every single yes.

And he listened over again.

He has to cut out all of our arms and beeps and bops and boobs.

He listened so much.

You know, I guess Lisa, she just has so many passions. It's just hard to keep them all documented in my brain.

You know, it's hard.

Apologize. I'm sorry, I apologize.

Wait wait, can I tell you we got a fun dm we somebody one of our listeners called the doom Wa pod cast and talked about us on the Desmois podcast that we got tea about Christopher Maloney being kind of hard to work with.

Oh my god, we're on demoit.

Yeah, the episode the Desmois episode podcast episode from last week or stuthing like, well, I don't know when it'll be two weeks old now when this episode comes out, but it's the Kylie Jenner Timothy Shalomet episode that's in the last couple of their episodes, and it's around the fifty two minute mark. Somebody called it and said, well, I listened to the That's Messed Up podcast and she shouts out that that's our podcast and says well.

Like and then the Dumoi girl was like, yeah, you're giving.

Me the tea here, like, because I think the girl was calling to be like, do you have any other has anyone ever also told you this? And she was like, no, you're giving me the tea here, like I had not heard that from anybody else.

Wow, this is huge my Yeah, I have some friends that are gonna.

Be really excited about that. Yeah.

And another friend just texted me yesterday was like, you know you're on DEMI right, and I was like, yes, I thought I texted you about it.

I'm sorry I forgot to tell you. No, it's so excited. Yeah. But so yeah, we're a little des Mois crossover. But wow.

Speaking of Timothy and Kylie though, you know they went to O Mary, o'mary great at the Tony's Congratulations, Congratulations the director one as well, I don't know him, Sam Pinkleton or Pinkton something like that.

Yes, he won as well, and it becomes her one like a stage.

Which deserved. The costumes were incredible. I do wish Audra McDonald won and not a trumper.

But hey, what are you gonna do? What are you gonna do? But I heard I'm gonna go to Boop.

I'm going to Boop Boop the musical it's about Betty Boop.

And people were telling me the it's like a younger actress.

Obviously it's Betty Boop, that she is like an Audre in the making, that she is beyond that she was the face like also a favorite of the theater. Like people say she is beyond and so I'm gonna try to go see that.

As we get your butt to Boop.

I was seeing a lot of hate about Nicole, people saying that in her acceptance speach she was like acting and not like really crying, but like kind of pretending she was crying.

But the woman's fifty and she's looking good. Nicoles like fifty dude. Oh the Pussycat dolls.

Okay, yeah, I mean that was what two thousand, Yeah, yeah, I mean I guess that makes sense. I just didn't know. Yeah, listen, I guess it was the most like streamed and watched Tony Cynthia Revo fuck yeah, Like she didn't have to host the tonys.

No, and then what I mean that's cool?

Yeah, and a couple of beat George Clooney, like, that's so cool.

We and we recognized a couple of people that we know in the opening sketch, Drew Drogi and a legend of La Comedy and Tim Murray, who's so funny.

I think, yes, Yeah, it was exciting. I feel like theater had an amazing year, like cool stuff. Yeah, I like succession girl, I should have seen that. I should have there a snook.

Yeah that I didn't know the one that won the musical and was like best Musical, right, Like I didn't.

Know about those. I guess a robot. It's like a robot one.

I don't know it's about Oh, it's about two discarded.

Robots like singing along.

But I did see that a Glee person has one of Tony in the past four years.

Every year in the past four years, somebody from Glee has won a Tony. Interesting, they got to keep up the Glee streak. Yeah, Darren Chris was the one this year. Yeah, I loved, I loved Wait what did they ask Oh, they asked cole in a in an interview like on The Red carpet. I'm sure you've seen it. They were like, what did you think when you read the Patty article? And they were like, I don't know how to read.

Be left up to the states. Yeah, I think it should be left up to the states.

It was so funny, and it was just like you could tell they were improvising and just so, oh, there are a talent. There are a talent of a generation. And Jeff yourself was there with coal.

It was it was cool. Yeah, it was like a it's exciting.

I didn't watch the whole thing, you know, I've just been putting pieces together, but it was a thrilling one.

And all of you, I'd like you to know.

I'm I'm I'm coming to you live from Mexico, outside of Yes, outside of Guadalajara, beaming in from Mexico.

And my mom's eightieth birthday.

This episode comes out the day after my mom's birthday, and she's really right behind your mom.

Pretty pretty soon I have so I got there's a store I love in my neighborhood. It's mostly house stores, but they have some like costume jewelry, and some of it's gold plated because my mom doesn't do fake shit. But I found this necklace. It was a little kookie, but it was like the pendant was a thing of grapes. It was like purple and green, but it was like grapes, a bushel of a bush. What is it called, not a bushel, a bunch of grapes whatever, Yeah, with a

I couldn't believe it. I could not believe it.

I go, I think I'm gonna do gifts before dinner and a grape nick and love it. She loved it and she put it on perfect. It was really exciting. We played a lot of card games, backgammon. It's it's it's a slower way of life here, and that's been really nice. But like no one's in a rush to pay the bill. It's probably very European vibes, like yeah,

Awesome.

And dog culture is cool here, Like dogs are running around, but it's like they mostly have callers, but like you can bring your dog anywhere, and I guess it's kind of the States, but like the dog culture.

Is cool here. Yeah, like you can cut.

Like there was like a stray dog that walked into a cafe we were in and no one was like, no one bad it than I. But my parents are eighty and eighty seven, and yeah they walk slow. It's like, yeah, a real test of patients, and you know, lucky to have them, of course. But my dad has a walking stick and it's like a roughieky stick. It's like giant and wood and it's taller than him and he takes it everywhere.

But yeah, he's getting my mom to the ice cream place from my house and it was I think it was her last long walk.

I don't think she's gonna try anything like that again.

But I got to give a shout out to my sister because they were here for like ten days before I even got here. And so yeah, the patients and joy that she brought them, Like, thank God, I wouldn't be able to go.

But you're not in a rush, you're having fun. You're own baca.

I mean them picking a magnet. And then my mom's like, I don't feel like and it's also very hot. We're itching mosquitoes, but like, yeah, it's a really calm, chill way of life. But my niece and I went to the grocery store like, I don't know, I'm having a really lovely time here.

I went last weekend out of town to Palm Springs for my ten year wedding anniversary.

I saw on Insta and I was I thought it would probably be a group. I'm like, oh, I wonder who they're down with. You know, we usually get houses with friends. Yeah yeah, so I that's really sweet. So you guys just went together with the kids.

Yeah, and we went to this hotel that you know, I found out about one of my mom groups, and it was so beautiful and it looked like it's basically on two sides. Of a street and one side is Morocco and the other side's Mediterranean, but you can go back and forth to both sides and so quiet, beautiful, no children, like all just like watch the kids. My in laws flew into town and they came and watched the kids.

It was way great.

Did your mother in law like her Tiffany's bracelet?

Yes, she did. She did. Wait she did that one for a while. Yeah. I finally asked her. I was like, she was like, you guys should not have done that.

Like she was like, it's a tiffic like she could not believe it. But yeah, she did love it. But they Yeah, they watched the kids.

What's the hotel cal You don't want to tell people you want to gate keep I kind.

Of want to gate keep it.

People can dm me if you're really that if you're really that interesting, you can dm me.

But I'll tell you.

I just felt really relaxed after it was like really nice. There were no like nobody was there partying, nobody was there with kids.

Like everybody was.

Just there to have a calm, chill weekend and relax and like get a buzz, you know, like it's actually has palm springs.

Vibes in terms of like things close early. Here, it's dinner at five or six. It is like a retirement community. I would say, yeah, but like, and there's American shit. My parents were obsessed with the Popeyes here. They had Popeyes like two or three times. They could not stop having Popeyes.

Oh but I mean we.

Also had beef tongue. Like, we were doing a lot of stuff. But when I got here, my Dad's like, you gotta have the Popeyes.

I'm so glad you guys all to do that. How fun.

I know, the boys, the little boys aren't here, but I am glad we got to. And I only flipped out twice, so I think that's like pretty I mean, I guess that was only there for three days with them, but I snapped twice. I snapped twice because everyone was saying, like, oh, how's it gonna be. I go, well, I will ruin the mood. I'm like, it feels like everyone's having a great time. I'm like, yeah, I'm sure I will. I will cause some chaos and problems for sure.

Okay, wait, can I tell a really quick story about the problem before I we get strung out?

But I'm so glad so ten year anniversary. Congrats. I'm glad you guys like Palm Springs. But I talked about Palm Springs a lot here because I love it there.

Yeah, okay, So you know how whenever I pick up Oscar from his school, it's like pandemanium. Well, no, it's just like when the teacher has a certain look on her face. I'm like, go ahead, give me my beating, like what did he do? You know?

Or whatever? So she has this look on her face and I go what happened?

And she goes, well, just now, before you came to pick up, he started calling a couple of our friends losers.

And I what. I was like, I've never heard him say loser. I've never heard him use that word. Like that's crazy.

So I was like, losers and she goes, yeah, I don't know.

You know, these kids they pick things up.

And I go, well, we don't really say loser or whatever, as like I'm certain certainly never like, hey, you're a loser to my kids or anything.

But so he says sorry to the girls, and it's.

Like whatever, and then we leave and I go Oski and I'm holding him.

I go, why why did you call them? Losers. Where did you even hear that?

And he I swear to god, I know people can't see me, but with this exact intonation, he goes, I don't know, you know how it's like people say Donald Trump's a loser, and like, you know, he's a loser. I was like, okay, okay, maybe we did say that. We maybe did say Donald Trump's a loser. Like I

But what why did he call the girls losers? I'm curious.

He said that they were saying something to him and so he said you're a loser or something like that, like you know, he was like, it wasn't like they were I don't think he even knew how mean it sounded. He was just like, oh, I don't know. You know, you guys say Donald Trump's a loser. The way he said it was like I don't know, like you guys kind of like I hear this around like you know,

But it really made me laugh so hard. I was like, you're right, we probably lose also a fun insult. I know.

I'm in the loser, I know, but like the little girls are like so sweet and they really like him and they're all friends, and I'm like, don't call anyone a loser at school, dude, Come on, like, don't be that way. Anyway, we're gonna get started. Go to Thats messed up live dot com for we got merch up there in the shop, We've got Lisa. You could scroll down to where its as Liza's website and that takes you to all of the legit ticket links for her tour dates and stuff.

And you know, you can also.

If you're listening to this right now, you could see me in Atlanta to night and tomorrow and then oh Charlotte this weekend, Thursday, Friday and Saturday.

So get out there.

Hit me up, honey, bunches out there, guys. Oh my god, yesterday I was sitting looking at the dog and I went Oh god, Bailey's just a true blue cutie, and people go, what does that mean? I go, I have no idea. I don't know what just came out of my mouth. I'm like, I don't even know if those words go together. Humiliating. Well, we've got a too blue cuty of an episode for you, you know, And I know I'm doing this and it's annoying, but things are.

Yeah, I want to say that you cannot trust what the media is fucking spinning for you. LA is peacefully protesting. I mean it's terrifying, Like I'm getting emails from my kids' school principal there's ice activity outside the school, Like you got these fucking ice guys are ghouls. They're absolute ghoulish monsters, going to graduations, going to kids' schools to try to pick up kids to get to their parents or whatever the fuck they're doing. It's fucked up. But Angelino's are

I don't know. It's terrifying.

I have friends who are documented who are like they could pick me up, Like they could pick me up just on how I look, you know.

Yeah, yeah, it's it's so fucked because let's say, let's say all these people are breaking the law and they need to be arrested. It has to be at a child's graduation, Yeah, it has to in court. You're dragging people out of work and home to bet Like, fuck you.

I literally just got a text they're at a hospital by the way. Let your like, I'm on this text with a bunch of moms that are like, let anybody you know that might be at ex hospital that they're around there like hospital.

Like they're causing the violence. Like that's what I don't understand about outside people. And I know the media is like very like persuasive in whatever way, and we are taught to trust it or not, Like I don't even know, but it's like the governor, the mayor, everyone said, we don't need all these these people don't need militia. It's like they're the ones causing violence. They're shooting reporters with

Yeah. No, it's just like I never forget that the whole reason that I mean, yes, they want Yes they're racist, Yes, the cruelty is the point. They're trying to get us to not pay attention to the elon breakup, to the big beautiful bill that's gonna fuck everybody from education to

Like, I hope that's you're having a great day with that. I don't want to smilled neighbor, Like it's just devastating.

I've been texting people. I've been texting people being like, I just want to make sure you're okay. It's it's it's terrible, but we will Well let us know if there's any way that you know, keep us posted. Yeah, I'll keep you guys posted, And but I would just say, like, you know, we've been talking about AI and shit, like

Bad happening in la any that they're trying to make it seem. And let's say it is or whatever. Let's say everyone's looting everything.

Ask what those people, why you care more about a car on fire than a mother being dragged away from her daughter.

While her While someone in my mom group just posted that they're helping a family where a woman was just deported by ice and leaving her thirteen month old child behind.

That's like to ask yourself why you care more about a car than a child ripped away from their fucking mother for no reason, for no reason, like have some fucking humanity, Like oh my god, and I told my parents, I go if you were being snatched away.

I would burn a car too, and then they laughed.

But anyways, no, they understand it all and we're we're just immigrants and you know it's fun.

Yeah, but we're starting. We got a start.

Oh my god, this episode is terrible.

We have this is a wild episode.

Good guests, hang in there with us, guys. Here we go. Okay, let's jump in.

This is another double episode we're doing the season premiere two episodes of season twenty Man Up and Man Down, episodes one and two.

These aired in September of twenty eighteen.

And you know, we say this a lot, but these are bad. These are bad. They haunt me.

These this episodes taught me. Yes, yes, they sent me.

They're hard to watch. I can't believe we're doing it.

Yeah, yeah, start. Yeah, this is not that they're not there's all. I mean, there's so many episodes that are hard to watch. But yeah, this is like the beginning.

Of really the new air.

Not a lot of levity, yes, like really like no levity and these like the twenties and a lot of the twenties seasons and late maybe late teens. But this episode begins with live running after a suspect and the bitch is winded. I'm not gonna lie. Okay, time stops

You got me, I did it. It's like it reminds me of like.

A Boris and Natasha cartoing or something like what do you tell when you tie him to the railroad tracks?

Like it's just crazy.

And then like Live catches up and she's still breathing really heavy, and you could tell she's like kind of disappointed in herself, like and when she's running, it's like he's right there and she just can't grab him. And then we cut to Stone looking at pictures of him and his sister, who was kidnapped and you know, murdered by a gang member sash sex trafficker right before Stone's eyes, and he and she died in Stone's arms.

Last season. So Stone's looking at pictures of his dead sister.

He's got a babe in his bed who's naked, asking for prosecco, and then boom, there's another girl.

There's two.

Stone is self medicating with sex and you know.

He's sky I mean to have a three? We did?

You did?

Just say like this episode has no levity.

It's the no levity era, and we already have like a guy, I know, a fun quick confession and we have a threesome which we've never rat on this programming.

But then after this, it's over. After this, he's just darkness from here.

Sexual.

I love Stone in his slut era, like, I don't know, it's exciting.

Well, like we.

Never saw Diane Neil in bed with anyone, kiss anyone. We never saw cabin, we never saw Barba, Like we're just letting this guy fuck like he's like there's other episodes too that we cover where he's just like going home with.

Ladies, making out, picking up girls at bars.

Like I think that's They were like, if we're gonna have a guy that's so handsome and looks good with his shirt off, let's get him with his shirt off.

Yeahs, Yeah, well, I guess tomorrow Amar and Rollins were getting hot and hey, I mean.

Rollins is just yeah. But even then we saw them kiss.

Yeah, like they just kind of had him come out of the shower one time, like to just give us a little tease. But I feel like we never even really saw them make out. But this is, you know, exciting. I'm it's hot and heavy.

Yeah. So now we cut to Amanda.

She's chatting with baby daddy number two, the one we always forget about. The actor is the groom from Father of the Bride. His name is George Newbern, the actor, and he's begging what.

I don't think I knew that that he's the dad, that he's the He's yeah, he's the he's the groom from I'm right.

Right, Oh my god. I am floored. I mean, now I see it. I obviously see it looking at this man, but I am like shocked.

Yeah, Benson has I mean, if you're gonna have three baby daddies, Donald log the groom from Father of the Bride, and CARIESI are pretty good three.

Baby daddies, you know. Yeah, yeah yeah, And he's like this guy was it.

He's been in all the Father of the Bride's Father of the Bride part three ish like, but he's in four episodes as doctor Al Pollock. Wait, this is his first episode, so I guess we're we don't really like see them meet or anything. This is where we meet him for the first time. This scene that I'm describing,

But this guy also was a standing for her money. He is wealthy. I hope he's like, yeah.

Yeah, if he could just pay for a nanny. That then covers also you know, uh, Billy and Jesse, and then yeah, covers college.

I'd be great.

But he's in sixty nine episodes of Scandal, so he's a regular on Scandal if you know him from that, But if you're a Father of the Bride person, he's in that universe. So back to this little you know, they're at like a nice restaurant. Rollins is in like cute outfit like there, and he's begging her for a second chance. So I guess since I just looked him up and this is the first episode, I guess you're just supposed to be like, oh, she was dating this guy and we don't know where she met him, but

So she leaves.

She gets like a look on her face, and she leaves, go to the bathroom, and then you see the toilet flushing, and like, you know, if you're anybody with like a brain, you're like, she's pregnant, you know, like we don't know, we don't know for sure yet, but like anybody that's like has to rush to the bathroom and then you just see flushing.

Yeah. So when she comes.

Back, she sees this guy and he's like flirting with the waitress and it seems like they might even be exchanging numbers.

Like he's he's not good, he's not good.

He literally just finished exhaling his apology to her, and like then he's flirting with this woman. Like so, now cut to a teen with a rifle. This beginning of this cold open is really jumping to a lot of places. It's live winded Stone in a threesome, Rollin's barfing with her cheating boyfriend, and now a teen with a rifle.

We're not at the credits. We're not at the credits. Okay, not even the credits. We're not even at the crime yet. Yeah, we're not at anything.

So the teen with the rifle is like he looks nervous, he's kind.

Of like he's hesitating.

Another teen is like, just shoot him, shoot it, and it's like the little target site is on a rabbit, a little baby rabbit. The brother like just shoots at the rabbit and then they go find the rabbit and it's dying. It's not dead, and the older one is like, just like shoot it, like do it, pussy, and like he won't. The kid won't do it. The dad is there now and he's like I can't do what. I'm sorry, dad, And the dad tells him you should be apologizing to

You know. It's like he's going to be punished.

So now we cut to a school principle filling in rollins in careesy. Sam Conway fifteen had blood on the back of his shorts, the kids claiming he fell. Okay, it's like my mother in law used to work in the er and people would have light bulbs up their asses. It would be like I fell. It's like that's not really how the butt hole works.

That's like a common thing that's always brought up, like all the light bulbs in the butt, and it's like, but how do they not crack?

Like what are we talking about? I know? And I feel like the glass murders people, does it not? It's this, It's like so crazy.

There's so many other objects you could put up your butt that are harder, tougher glass.

That's what I don't get. You want something that's like that.

Maybe it's like the threat of having your butt filled with shards of glass, but I mean Jesus, as someone who's had butt botox and talked about it openly, you don't want that anyway. Sam's in the nurse's office. Sam's in the nurse's office with his brother Brian, who's very agro and Sam's just like, I just want to go home.

I just I fell I want to go home.

And then the mom shows up and she's worried, and Chrisy's like, well, we got to take your son to the hospital. So Sam is played by Bryce Romero, who was also in the movie Lisa Frankenstein, which I wanted to see but I didn't. So from that yeah, he's in that and.

Uh was it good?

Yeah?

I liked it.

I feel like it was on a plane, like in the more like I think I was like in a haze. And I liked it, but I should probably watch it again. Yeah, I'm confusing that and the warm and the Nicholas Holt one. I loved Lisa Frankenstein. Okay, great, watch this one.

Yeah, I liked it.

Now we're at the hospital and bad news anal penetration and most likely not by an object, and he's not talking. The kid is not talking, and the family wants to all believe that he fell. Cariese's telling Sam listen, buddy, the docs say this wasn't an accident, and Sam's like, I'm.

Fine, okay, I needed this to happen.

It's my business, and Christy goes, okay, but if you decide you're not fine, give me a call. Give me a call. And then he gives him his card. So now at the precinct, it's time for the info dump. Sam Well liked good grades, plays travel baseball, volunteers in an animal shelter, Hence why he probably doesn't want to shoot a fucking re abit.

No bullying, no red flags, with.

Any of his teachers, like or anything like that. So they're kind of like at a loss. The dad owns a beverage distribution company. The mom's a stay at home mom. They've been married twenty years. I mean, the stay at home mom of the fifteen and the seventeen year old. I just don't get what you're doing all day long, Like if they're at school and then they have practice like from eight to six, I don't know what you're doing but chilling, but hopefully chilling.

Well, she clearly doesn't have a great home life, so she's on edge cleaning the home so she's.

Not abused later. It's not that's a good situation. Well, no, of course we're not there yet. In my notes, I'm just like, God, that sounds boring. And that's also just my opinion. Maybe that sounds wonderful to some people.

You could go to a breakfast, you can go to a workout class, you could.

Use self maintenance. Yeah, and then you can like even go for a crafting. Yeah.

There's tons, there's tons of Maybe maybe she's heavy into the pta at the school too, Maybe she does stuff with their school.

I'm Joie. I'm just saying for me, it couldn't be me.

But they've been married twenty years and there's no domestic violence. There's no domestic violence that we've you know, seen this in the no it's okay the law in the eyes of their record. They've been married twenty years and there's no DV. The brothers are close and they went hunting with the dad over the weekend. They're all stumped, but Coriesy goes, I don't know. Sam said something weird. He said this needed to happen. Yeah, that's a pretty weird

Shut up, Noah, call me when you hit a home run. She'll be there.

Sam has a girlfriend who is also on her way in Rollin's is like eating banana bread and lives like something up and Rollins dodges it and is like this banana bread. Oh, there's the girlfriend, and so that like now they're going to talk to this girl who's allegedly Sam's girlfriend, and she's.

Like like, now that's what's confusing where it's like banana bread, something must be wrong.

Like I know, I feel like it's like live has intuition about this kind of stuff. And also sometimes people's faces changed when they're p but she seems like she's early along, like I don't know, but she feels like she gets something.

She's picking up on something.

And so they're talking to the girlfriend and the girlfriend's like, I'm not his girlfriend, girlfriend, Like we tried one time, but he just couldn't do it. And she says she's pissed at him because they were supposed to study last night and he called her wasted. He was either laughing or crying and he said I became a man tonight.

So what yikes.

So then they go to the bar where I guess they trace her phone and find out where the phone call came from. The bartender goes, oh, yeah, this kid was at the bar with his dad. They show a picture of the dad and he go of Dylan Walsh and they're like, the guy goes, that's not the guy. This guy had white hair and glasses. He paid cash, but I think they left in an uber. They pick up the uber. No one else ubered from this bar, they get this guy immediately. His name is Gus Haverford.

I don't think anybody thinks that's happening, Like so like that law school to study for. Yeah, exactly.

They see Haverford and he immediately goes, I swear I didn't know the kid was fifteen, so very very forthcoming for a fifty five year old financial guy who could probably lose his whole fucking life over this. And so now in interrogation, this guy's explaining, listen, the kid was fucked up. I had an uber take him home and they're like, yeah, your hands are all over him.

He's like, I was trying to comfort him. He was crying, and he goes.

Sam didn't want to go home, but he seemed more worried about his brother, and he kept rambling about a rabbit and then he's kind of like, all right, if I'm gonna say anything.

Else, I want a lawyer.

And so Live and Finn are watching through the glass and lives like something did happen on that hunting trimp and Finn goes, white people in rifles, don't ask me, and it's like, again, put it in the coffee table book, like I don't understand why there's not a book being created of just beautiful images.

And Finn sayings.

Finn goes to talk to Brian, who's the brother, and he's on his way to baseball practice and he's like, yeah, I was worried sick about my brother when he went out that night, but then he came home. He puked everywhere. I cleaned him up and I put him to bed. And Finn's like, come on, dude, like the injuries. You know your brother was raped, and he's like, my brother's not gay. It's like, I love how that's like the main that's the main thing that could be the worst

So careesy momonizer, But you know, j Benson's always got baby's on the brain.

She's really I mean, I talk about it later. It's a little disappointing, uh, to be honest, Like I would just assume that she'd be a little bit more like okay and like wait to see you Amanda's thoughts on it before just going like planning you a baby shower. Girl, Like you know, she's just immediately so excited about it. So they get interrupted in their little chat about the baby because Careese busts in, and it's because Sam and Brian just got into a fight with each other at school,

To get a shot at.

Like there, everything's nice, Yeah the fuck. Yeah, they're all like just acting really really psycho about the rabbit.

Dad reminds me of the dad from American Beauty. Oh, the neighbor dad. Yeah, yeah, yes, he's good.

What's that actor's name, Chris Cooper, Chris Cooper, Yeah, yeah, totally giving those vibes. And then we're talking to the mom now and Sam and she's like, what, brother's fight, Like the mom's a little battie and she's like it looked like he was trying to kill you or shut you up or about something, and then the dad joins the combo and he drops this big bomb where he goes, you know, Sam came out to me this morning.

He's gay.

The mom is like, what, Like, that's not the thing that you, as a husband just really like say to the cops, and you've not told your wife yet, and he's like, yeah, he met a young man on the trip and one thing led to another. We talked it out. Everyone's good. Sam does not look good. Sam looks really upset and he's obviously going along with what his dad says. He's lying pretty hardchries. He's like, Okay, what's the story with the guy? What did he look like, how old

They're gonna call CPS. They need to get Sam out of that house.

House Live thinks the mom knows what's going on, so let's talk to her.

Her name is Molly.

So now they're at the family's massive apartment by the way, and Molly's like, can't talk. The dad is out for pizza with my boys, and she goes like, we have something to celebrate. So she's obviously like, yeah, why the fuck we having a pizza party? Like, my son obviously had some kind of weird Woods encounter. We don't know what's going on, and Lives like, how are you gonna get through life with Sam with him knowing you didn't protect him or keep him safe? And she's like what

And then John and the boys come home with the pizza and the cops arrest him.

So in interrogation, John is freaking out, saying, my wife agrees with whatever the last person said to her, says like he's basically has zero respect for his wife. He's freaking out being like, you guys are sick. How could you put these ideas in? And he's like they're like, dude, we didn't even think it was you, like we fully were going after your son, like your wife is the one that pointed us to you. And his lawyer is Kurt Fuller, and you've seen him in like ninety thousand things.

It's just like he digs the opposite side of it. I've never seen my cousin Vinnie.

Oh my gosh. Put that into the right with ghosts. You would love it. You would love it, Marissa Tomay, Joe Peschi. They're so good in it.

It's so good. It's so good. I love that. I know it's really wild. Yeah, I love I actually feel shame about that.

It's actually also so good because it's like a it's like a comedy, but there is like this great crime and twists and they use police work, and so I think, like, procedurally you will as a procedural fan, you will like it as well. So this fucking guy is just trying a big time stone about what a cool manly man he is.

Like I don't even flinch.

I just fucking kill innocent animals with my rifle, like I'm so awesome. And in the next scene, I'm sorry, I like literally have almost I just have like no respect for hunting. Like if you need to hunt for your food, then okay, But like I had to, I've had to hide friends on my Facebook and stuff who will just post photos of them like holding up wild game as like a prize when it's like you just and I know people are eating meat and that's fine.

And then he's like that's why he goes.

I think that's why they invented sports, so dads would have something to talk about.

With their sons. And Sam wants Cariesy to like let it go.

He's like, let it go, and Carisey's like, dude, you know I can't do that. And he's like, your mom saw your dad in that room.

She told us.

And just when we think Sam is about to break down and admit everything, he's like, just because your life sucks doesn't mean my life has to suck. Your dad blows My dad rules. He would never hurt me, and I'll never say he did. Like this guy, this kid

So now Live and Stone are in a walk and talk.

Stone's like, I don't care what kind of world this is as if this is like the first ancestual atrocity that's run across his desk, like I don't understand, but and then Liv goes, I guess there has to be a hell so we can recognize heaven. And then the two of them like talk a lot, a bunch of scripture bullshit, and it's like it's a weird moment, like Live doesn't usually.

Talk like that. That feels like a little bit of Marishka sneaking in there.

And Stone doesn't get why kids have to suffer, and uh, Olivia is like, listen, if you ever need to talk about Pam, I'm here for you, and Stone's like, she's dead, what is there to talk about? And then he changes the subject like he doesn't want to, he doesn't really want the shoulder to cry on. He changes the subject

All right, Yeah, so.

Now we're in court and a nerd, which is which is funny because that's literally the opposite of every da, Like every DA to the ada's is like, if you're not gonna win, get the fuck out of the court room, like I don't know why you're even here, Like I don't even care who this is.

Just stop if you can't win, and get go home. So now we're in court and a nerd.

Is on the stand talking about the DNA samples they found in Sam's underwear. So basically, they found blood and semen on this kid's underwear. But the lawyer makes the case that because the underwear was washed with the clothes of other family members, he's like, couldn't have been transferred. This is what Jed is saying the attorney and he the defense attorney, and he's like. The nerd goes, it's possible, and he goes, is it likely? And he goes under

Don't think you're well.

I also thought that was like to protect if you want enact it, But you can testify against someone you're married to, you can't.

Yeah, But I think the point is, I guess that they're making here is without a complaining witness, he has to sustain the objection.

Like if there was a.

Complaintant that was confirming that a crime occurred, then she could testify because she'd be testifying to a crime according But right now she's just a testifying to something she saw happen in their home, which I guess is protected. I don't get it, but I can't believe that. I can't believe that he stone would even go for it, thinking that this would be a possibility, because there's no case without that, like there's no case without what the

Yeah. Finn's like, Babe, we're old, that's life. What are you gonna do. He's like, I feel the exact same way. I like it. My lungs can't fill with air.

Like it's fine, the young guys can come with us and do the chases. It's also like people have like accidentally died in these chases. This broken legs, She'll be okay, you know what I mean, Like it's just it's not great.

Look at this, Oh gameplay maybe yeah, maybe the drunk idea, maybe a drunk idea from the bar.

Yeah, he got wasted and was like, yes, thank you Johnny Walker for helping me come up with this. So we cut to the mom testifying to what she saw and how john later told her to keep her trap shut about it. Then on Cross, the defense is making her look like a liar because she never said anything, like, she never told anyone the story for a really long time. He's like, like, the first time did you talk to the cops, the second time you talked to the cops, did you tell them this?

And she's like no, No, did you tell the nurse? Did you tell the principle?

Like and he was like, that's why would you tell the principle anyway. She also, I saw something really weird in my house last night. She also admits that she doesn't know what happened in that room, only what she saw, and.

It's like, what the fuck, Like what the fuck?

So now Sam is on the stand and he's basically calling his mom a batshit.

Little cuckoo bird.

He's like, I love her, but she doesn't know what the fuck is going on or what she's saying. He denies on the sand that his dad assaulted him, and then his lawyer makes him tell the story of meeting the man on the hunting trip, like they don't ask him for one fucking corroborating thing.

Where did you guys meet? Where did the sex take place?

Like what?

Like nothing?

He doesn't know anything because it didn't happen on Stone's Cross. He asks Sam for all the details, and then he's like, it's kind of weird. You remember everything about the hunting trip, but you don't remember anything about the first time you had sex on that hunting trip. And Sam's like, listen, my dad killed a moose when he was twelve. My brother, my brother killed a deer when he was fifteen. It's like a write a passage in the family and then Stone asks Sam, like, were you scared of your dad

That's man. Man, she doesn't worry. You know what's she can now? I mean, you're right, you're right.

If there's if there's, yeah, I'm sure that man has Like I just made her sign a prenup and a posting up and everything in between so that she gets nothing if she walks out the door. And that's also probably another reason why she's a stay at home mom. He probably demands that, right, like he wants like a tradwife.

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, Like she.

Maybe she's like, hey, I was wondering if I could take a couple hours down at the cat shelter, and he's like, no, kill the cat.

So anyway, man down. Next episode, we obviously get.

The recap, and then the next thing we see, the cold open, we see Stone is on the front steps of the courthouse and he's obviously getting shit from his boss, the DA on the phone for losing because he does not believe that the fights you can't win are the ones worth fighting for.

He does not believe that his boss.

So Live follows Molly the Mom into the bathroom and she's like, I know what you're gonna say, and then she's like, listen, let's call CPS, like let's get Sam out of that house. And Molly's like, and break up our family because honestly she's indoctrinated too that like, the family is the core, the nuclear family is the core of the world, of society, of everything in your life, and so like to break up the family to keep her son safe.

Yes, kids aren't safe Toget like, what, Yeah, it's it's like family is broken, babe, the family is broken.

So many people are like, well, we stay together for the kids.

And it's like when you guys hate each other and there's clearly like sort of like verbal or emotional abuse going on between you, and that's what you want. That's how that's better for the kids.

Like it doesn't. It's wild.

I know that it's like not cut and dry when it comes to divorce, but like there's so many people that want to stay together.

But everyone's all so clearly scared of this man. Yeah you know, yeah, he is scared of this mother.

And he has guns. Yes, exactly. He's like a hunting freak, you know what I mean.

Right, And I'm sure he has nice skills, like he snapped the rabbit's fucking neck with his hands. Yeah, and lives like, no, I don't want to break up your family. I just want you to protect your son, which I know you've been trying to do, And she's like, I could keep it safe by staying with him, and then lives like how you cannot watch him all the time,

Talk to you never, bye forever.

And then the next morning, the mom is up to get Sam up for school.

She goes into his room. It's like six thirty.

She's lying and he's lying in bed, looking traumatized, just generally traumatized.

She's like, you don't have to go to school today, but he's like really.

And at first he's like, oh really, and she's like, yeah, you don't have to go, and he goes, no, I want to go.

I want to go. And then now they're.

All at the breakfast table, huge apartment again massive, and they're at this like long breakfast table for four people talking about baseball practice and Molly's like, maybe I can pick you guys up after practice and we can go to shake Shack, and the Dad's like, Molly, they're teenagers, not toddlers, and it's like, yeah, actually toddlers hate shake Shack, you rapist fuck Like, like I guess because she's offering to pick them up, and they're like, we could take

Name probably would have been.

People would have been talking. So he walks into school. It's like, you can he probably missed school to testify. I don't know, right, It's like, my thing is, you wouldn't send a kid back to that school at all, like they would start a new school, they would go to like a new life, you know what I mean. You couldn't send your kid back to school after he has stood trial in a case about he's dad raping him. So anyway, Sam walks into school. He feels everybody looking

Like that's the thing. Like the cast sing in this is so good? Do you really feel for this boy and the abuse?

It just sucks.

It really is like an upsetting Yeah, great, role, great role.

He's you know, smashed it. Yeah, he does really really great work in this.

And his the girlfriend girl walks up to him and is like Sam, Sam, and he just ignores her and he just stands in the doorway staring.

And so then all the kids have entered the school and he's.

Just staring there and he's got his baseball bag over his shoulder and then he like holds the baseball bag like.

A gun and you're like fuck.

And then he walks into school and there's a big wide shot of the school and we hear gunshots and screams and that's the credits. So obviously this episode comes out in twenty eighteen, were almost twenty years past the epidemic of school shootings, you know what I mean, Like the column mine was in ninety nine, So any of us watching this show are like, we know what's happening, right, Like everyone is flooding out of the school.

They're getting the breakdown.

Single shooter, male semi automatic hunting rifle, at least six victims. The principals there says the shooter just kept shooting with this dead look in his eye, and they're like, who was it?

And she's like.

Sam Conway is the shooter, which of course we know, but Live and Rollins are like, what like the fact that they would get a call to that school about a school shooting and not go immediately it's Sam Conway, Like you should know what's happening.

It's like the day after the trial.

So now Careesi and Finn are talking to Brian and he's like, I don't know where Sam is. I don't know where he is because apparently they found his gun, but he's escaped somehow. He got out in the flood of students, like he just kind of blended inside.

How An escaped.

So now Brian said what he saw was Sam shooting, and he went up to him and said, what the hell are you doing?

Sam?

Just stop it totally what you'd say to your brother while he's shooting up at school. And then Sam just said are you happy now? And then he said Sam also kept saying I need to concentrate. You don't concentrate, you lose the game, which is yeah, kind of a disturbing, you know thing to be whispering to.

Yourself as you are shooting up a school.

So Careese says that makes Caresy remember all their sports chats and he goes, I know where to find Sam. Thinn goes tell ESU and Cariese goes, no, they're going to kill him like on site, and Finn goes, maybe they should, which is a bit of a hearkening back to Finn from older days, like Finn used to be very black and white. But it's like Finn, you know, this is a traumatized kid whose father sexually assaulted him.

Like, let's give.

Him a small, tiny, teeny break, you know, even though a school shooting is obviously horrific, but maybe let's not shoot him on site. And so Careesy finds Sam at the same baseball field where they had their chats before. Cariese identifies himself and is like, hands where I can see him. Sam stands up and he has a handgun and he's got it to his head and he's just going just let me die.

I don't deserve to live.

I don't deserve to eat chocolate chip waffles or play baseball or kiss girls, and Cariesy tries to convince him, like, you don't do that, that's taking the easy way out. He's kind of appealing to, like his sense of masculinity, that's been like fucking beaten into him, and he's like, that's not justice for your friends. And he tries to convince him also that it will be really mean for your dad for you to kill yourself, like your dad's

And he's like, no, I don't hate him. I love him.

And it's like this kid is so gone, Like even after he's done all this, even after he's seen like what has turned him into a monster, he's still like, my dad's the fucking best and like it just you know, it just shows you like this kind of conditioning from an abusive parent can really be hard to unravel from. And anyway, care he starts putting the gun down a little bit, Caresy tackles into the ground, gets the gun, and Sam's yelling.

I should have just shot the rabbit. I should have just shot the rabbit. And he's crying. So we're not letting go of this rabbit.

It's a real metaphor, and live is now filling in stone.

Two kids died in the shooting.

They were dead on arrival, Heather Lewis, age sixteen, and Justin Cruz, age seventeen. Five victims total, four were students, one is in critical condition, and one was a teacher. So they did say six victims earlier. It is six victims. Oh no, it's not.

It's five. It's five victims, but they said six earlier.

Anyway, he only fired thirteen shots, but that gun holds a ton of rounds, which is kind of wild, and they're like yeah. Also, the saving grease was that he's also a bad shot, like, you know, he doesn't shoot well. So and he also had a handgun that he never fired, and the mom swears that both guns were locked in a gun safe, So I guess he figured out the combo.

This is like my dad.

I want to show my dad that I can like shoot things, and uh so it's about the dad. So then John Conway shows up with his lawyer and has the nerve to scream at Stone.

He's like, where's my boy? And the lawyer is.

Trying to say that nothing that the kids said without counsel is admissible, but they're like, dog, he already confessed and he has. There are dozens of eyewitnesses like, you need to actually sit down. You won a very improbable case and you should just take it and leave it. At that moment, they obviously marched Sam right past his dad and he's profusely apologizing like sorry, I'm sorry, and his dad just fucking backhands him and yells, what did

Not guilty though, like reason of insand like we know you did it, like it is leading, not guilty, it is wild.

I don't know. Yeah, maybe he was trying to do a mental disease or defect. I don't know.

But he's at a juvenile facility now under suicide watch, and Stone is punishing himself. He's like, I shouldn't have cross examined him at the trial. I should have seen how damaged he was and lives like, yeah, his dad raped him, that's why he's damage. And he's like yeah, and then I did it all over again on the witness stand, Like I didn't even think his cross examination was like that wild.

I've seen them be way worse to people, but to victims. But Stone's blaming himself.

So now Caresie and Rolins are chatting at the juvenile facility and she's explaining to Kreesee how stressful it is having kids, like you just worry about them constantly.

It's like breathing underwater.

And she's getting really emotional imagining like this happening to one of her kids. And I can't tell if she's imagining them getting shot at school or them being a school shooter. But she's getting very emotional and like starting to cry, and the States psych for Sam Conway comes in. It's doctor Lisa Abernathy. This is her first episode, but she's also Lisa Abernathy returns in the episode Exile and

And doctor Olivett blessed her.

Heart is at a wedding in Tuscany and that's why doctor Aberhathy is there Tuscany.

Cool.

Yeah, So now she goes, let's talk about Sam, and then we see her session with Sam and he asks like, do you have kids? Because if you have kids. I know you already hate me. And she's like, I don't hate you. And she says, but my wife and I have a boy and a girl, and he's like I think he picks up, like he's like, oh, well, you.

Know you're gay.

My dad told everyone that I'm gay, but I'm not. And then he's like, my dad is a good dad. He looks out for us. And then she's like, tell me a memory about your dad. And the first memory he goes to being four years old and putting his one of his little toy soldiers they're sword into an electrical outlet and his dad whipping him with a belt for doing that, and he's like, it hurt and I was crying, but you know what, I never forgot and I never did it again.

And it's wild.

But now we're in a large group walk and talk outside and we're moving fast and furious. It's Abernathy Stone live Finn and they're walking four across Sex in the city style and they are on the move. Okay, they have no time, and she goes, I don't think Sam is insane, and I don't think he was insane at the time of the shooting. He knew it was wrong,

And they're like all right, well, thanks, nice doing business with you.

And then John Conway goes to shake Stone's hand, and Stone stone walls him. He's like, absolutely not, am I touching your psychotic rapist hand for a handshake.

And it's pretty satisfying to see that.

Yeah, to have that man be like completely denied, like especially by another masculine man like man to man, this guy's just like fucking rejecting him and I like that.

So Live is pretty pissed.

She's like, so now Sam's gonna go to jail for life and the dad's just gonna walk And Stone's like, hell no, this ain't over, not by a long shot. So now Stone is at the juvenile facility talking to Sam, and Sam's like in a little yellow juvenile facility jumpsuit, and he's finality is fully different, Like yeah, he has like a new swagger about him. Yes, yes, Juvie has toughened him up real quick, and he's like, listen, he's like a cool.

I don't know, like suddenly he was he became really cool. Yeah.

Yeah, I know it's fucked up to say, but he's just like he knows there's no future and I don't know, they're just a new vibe to him.

Yeah, because I think he's like giving it up, he's given up. He's like, my life is over. Basically, I'm just gonna like rot in jail for the rest of my life.

And he's like Stone reminds him.

He's like, you are going to go to prison and maybe for the rest of your life. And he's like, yep, it's my decision and not my dad's, and I want you to leave. And as soon as Stone walks away, Sam just launches into a story about one of his victims. Like Stone walks away, and he goes Heather Lewis. I went to a party at her house and she played Rihanna all night. I'm like, oh, so she was really cool, Like that's cool, that's fun that she was.

Playing Rihann all night. We love Rihanna.

And then he goes Justin Cruz. I didn't really know him, but apparently he was a math genius and he had a little sister. She was only five. So he's acting more hard, but he is like you could tell he's like fucked up that he like realizes he took two people's lives, you know, and he's obviously very sad.

He knows he has to plead guilty, Like he doesn't even knows what he did was wrong.

Yeah, and I think a little bit of the shit, like there's a little bit of like chips.

And the armor happening.

Like he's like, yeah, my mom went to the funerals and no one even looked at her, Like I don't think he likes that his mom is being outcast because of something he did, which is because of something the dad did, you know. And Stone apologizes and suddenly Sam's all agro and he goes, don't you know only pussy's apologize and he tells Stone, you know, I didn't even want to go to school that day, and his dad pushed him. No excuses, no regrets. Men look to the future,

He didn't then kill a bunny like yeah, yeah, yeah, I just don't even get what you want from this kid to I know, shall what be the worst person ever?

Yeah?

And Stone goes, oh, so right after your dad was a complete fucking asshole to you the morning after the trial and you had to go to school.

Uh, and force you to go to school?

Stone is like, is that when you put the rifle in your bat baseball bag? And the guy the kid's like, I gotta go, Like they only give us a little bit of time outside and he walks away, and so Stone calls live immediately and is like, I want to go after the dad. I want to go after John Conway. So we cut to the mom. We cut to the mom downing a pill with a gloss of white wine. Okay, so she's she's in it, okay, And she visits Sam, she says every day for one hour, and she seems

I obviously he's just like a regressive psychopathmaniac. But it's like, what did the dad want with these sons? Just to be hyper masculine dickheads, just like to hit women, kill animals and never apologize and be good as for I don't get that then you'd be happy or would you just keep picking and picking like it's it's insane, right?

I mean, yeah, no, a dad like this would never be.

Happy you could get varsity if you're not like making major League Baseball, you're not. And then even then if you're not in the Hall of Fame, you know what I mean, Like, this guy would keep raising the bar like but the mom says, oh, John's just kind of ignoring it, you know, stiff upper lip and all that, like that's how he was raised, and Live tells her, well, we think he should be prosecuted for creating an environment where Sam believed that shooting is what makes you a man.

And the mom is like screaming.

She's like, oh does that help Sam? These dead teenagers and lives, Like what about your other son, your other son who lives in your home in is seventeen, And she's freaking out and is like, this, all this happened because I went against my husband. That's probably what he told her, and like just the mere fact of going against your husband's word brought all this devastation upon your family.

It's like, yeah, you would definitely kill this woman. But also all you do is preach all this masculinity shit, like why wouldn't your kid think that they're school shooting was the way to do it? Yeah, it is all the things that you talked about, you know.

Right right, yeah, just like to I mean, and this kid like loves animals, so maybe he's just like, yeah, my dad wants me to take lives and he's not even like, you know, make equating a difference to it. But all her husband wants, she says, is for their boys to become men.

That's all he wants. That's all he wants. Is that so much? Is that too much to ask? He just wants them to be men? Oh? Gross? Anyway, as I bought my son three.

Dresses for his birthday this year, I would say I'm not relating to this style of parenting.

Now.

Now, Rollins have been our talking to the brother Brian, who's still claiming that the dad rules, and you know, they never get to the bottom of whether anything like this happened to Brian, Like I'm sure Brian was also assaulted, but they never really get to it in the episode. Unless Brian is just more hyper masculine by nature and like you know, was always down with the stuff his dad told him to do, so we never had to be.

Quote unquote punished.

But he claims in this conversation we were always treated the same growing up. And he's like, and I never shot anyone, And he's like, I should have known that Sam was going to do something like that.

And he's really upset.

He's and he's blaming himself, like everyone's blaming himself in the don't accept the person who's responsible.

And he's upset the sun and.

Like Rollins has her hand on his shoulder and he just shoves her hand off, and like, I wonder if that was like improvised or whatever, because Rollins looks truly shocked. She's like, men love my hands on their shoulder. She's like, why are you taking my hand off your shoulder? But he's like, my friends are dead, my mom's a mess, my brother's in jail forever. And he's like, this is all your guy's fault and you should blame yourself.

So maybe he doesn't blame himself.

He really thinks it's the cops, but lives breaking it down now for Stone, Molly Conway isn't talking, she'll lie if you subpoena her, and lives like, I kind of don't blame her. She's like at the end of her rope. And Brian's like lost his brother. He's not gonna lose his dad too.

Anyway. That just leaves Sam.

So Sam's the only one that could possibly aid in this trial going anywhere. So now they go and they find John Conway and obviously he's at the shooting range where he probably has like a raging boner in his pants while he's target shooting, and.

They bring him in for murder.

So now Stone is talking to Conway and his lawyer again, and who goes, are you guys kidding me? My yoga's what? My wife's yoga pants don't stretch this much? And you know you got it? That feels like an old school style joke for the show. And I got a hand it to them, And Stone explains the situation using a metaphor about pit bulls. He goes, you know pitbulls actually make very good pets. It's their owners who turn them

And so he goes, are you saying I didn't bring my boy up right? It's like, are you kid? Like that's where you're going at.

Nobody not like I don't think that there's a ton of parents of school shooters who are like, we did everything correctly. There's no parents in the world that say we did everything correctly. But this man is like, I'm perfect and I did nothing wrong. And his lawyer calls it a snowflake defense. Daddy made me do it, and they just walk out. Rollins and Live are chatting about

No, But.

It's like Live is okay with a kid getting an abortion, like an underage person who's been assaulted, but like a grown woman.

There's like that thirteen year old that was gonna have a kid, and she's like, you'll figure it out.

Yeah, you'll have fun.

She is like pro life, like, sorry, it's the truth.

No, she'll fight for the right.

She's pro choice, but she's anti abortion. She doesn't like she would never choose it for herself or her loved ones.

I would say maybe she did. We don't know. She just you know, she just well she alluded that she yeah, shit, Or.

Did they want to make it like a great what do you think the right? You know, like do they not want to know us? Or she just doesn't want to say no, because then sounds.

Like a question we have to ask Mauritia Cahrgate one day because that is really interesting.

Oh my god, that would be crazy. First question, so, has lived had an abortion?

Well, because I mean, like we know she we know that the actress in real life too, is religious but also pro choice, you know.

So yeah, anyway.

And she's captain here now, right, Yeah, because that's another thing because I was also thinking, like with her getting winded and stuff, like maybe in the last step. You know, it's the two parter, but it is this thing of like, I don't know, Craigan wasn't on the scene of every crime. Yeah, if you're in charge of the whole department, like Craigan was in the office, like you've.

He's actually not captain yet she becomes she's lieutenant, and she becomes the captain in twenty one, season twenty one, damn, and this is season twenty so she's lieutenant even when she season twenty one, even when she's captain, she's on the scene because she's the star of the fucking show. But Craigan does show up to a lot of crime scenes, just not every single one.

You're right, you are right, But he's also not doing the running and the stuff, like it is kind we do.

Not see Cragan running after a perp. We do not see that.

It's like, give yourself some grace, girl.

So back in court, the dad is on the stand and he's talking about how he treats his boys the exact same and he just wanted them to be tough so the world wouldn't chew them up and spit them out. And he tries to paint himself as the best dad ever. You know, some guys they get home from work and they're just too tired, But not me. I take my kids to the park and I play ball with them, I take them hunting and fishing, and can someone explain to me what is so wrong about wanting your boys

But then he starts some shit with Stone on the stand.

You know, they shouldn't be scared, but it's like what if they don't want to? Yeah, like that's never crossed his mind where it's like we should be and it's like okay, but then the other people should be able to do what they want and your son didn't want to fucking hunt.

Yeah, and of the fucking day you piece right.

Shit. I just hate that he is not even questioning himself once.

Ray Ray right, it is. Yeah, honestly, he infuriated me this much.

And in his Annihilation episode too, he really pisses me off. Yeah, yeah, I get actor because I fucking hate his guts.

Yes, yeah, he sucks.

And what's crazy is in Niptuck he's like the likable one for most of it and his partner is like the asshole and their partners at like a they do plastic surgery. But uh, he's kind of the likable, like good guy with like a wife and a family, and then of course, like his life gets sucked up as the show goes on. But he's not a sociopath the way he is in all these other shows we see him in, or at least in this one, both.

Of his roles.

He so this dad starts to try to like start some shit with Stone, and Stone serves it like right back to him and is like, you would say, I have balls, right, and not having balls is the worst thing a man can have, So I'd be like a girl because being a woman is the world worst thing a man can be like, and like, are you proud of how your son has like the lifelong shame of never being able to live up to your his dad's perverse sense of manhood, because there's nothing worse than being

I need to get this dad.

So you know, all that drinking is really making him forget a lot of his guilt. So now top of the final act, Sam is on the stand and now his head is shaved, so shit's gotten crazy at Juvie. So then he gets Sam to testify to like what would happen if your dad was ever unhappy with you?

Like what would he do?

And he's like, he'd call me a baby, a pussy and f the F word slur And after he wouldn't shoot the rabbit, he told him that until further notice, he was a little girl and that he was gonna call him Samantha, and he threw one of his wife's dresses at Sam and told him to wear it. And then he goes, what were you thinking about before you shot your schoolmates?

Like, what were you thinking?

And he goes, I was thinking, be a man, and he goes a voice was saying that over and over in his head.

Be a man, Be a man.

And then he gets up and he screams at his dad and goes, and I didn't flinch. How's that, dad, I didn't flinch. Am I a man now? And it's like, wow, fuck, Finally this kid is at least standing up for himself, you know, and advocating for how fucking psycho his dad was closing arguments, the defense is up first, going my client and put the gun in his hand, he didn't pull the trigger.

And if we all start.

Taking responsibility for the act of our kids, we better all start losing weight because it's going to be a tight squeeze in Attica. And now it's Stone's turn, and he's pointing out that John wasn't preaching strength to his kids. He was preaching power over others, which isn't being a man, it's being a criminal.

And the jury they agree.

They find him guilty of criminally negligent homicide. The lawyer looks pissed, but it's like, you did win very obvious case of incest rape. But Brian and Molly are stunned, the wife and the older brother, and now that's kind of the end of that story. The final beat of the episode is We're at Olivia's apartment and she's talking to that little shit Noah and it's time for bed and he doesn't want to go to bed, and he shoves Olivia backwards and she is gagged. She is like, Noah,

Crazy episode. It is weird end, Yeah, weird end.

I think they're trying to sow the seeds for shit of like, is violence inherent in you, if you're if you come from violent people, and like because Johnny d is his.

Dad and you know, like all that kind of stuff.

But who knows. Also, no one needs some no one needs some discipline. He's acting like an asshole. Maybe he's pissed she didn't come to her his game where he almost hit.

A home run. Sad episode.

Yeah, And I'm sure the true crimes are going to be really fun and happy, go lucky.

So I'm glad you're here. All right, Well, I'll flow right in.

So I feel like we all know about the Michigan case that is like famous, but that's you know, years after this episode.

Which I couldn't believe. I looked it up. I couldn't believe it.

Yeah, a lot of and a lot of the like court stuff happens like years and years after a lot of these shootings as well. So that case, it was Ethan Crumbly and he was fifteen at the time and it was Oxford High School November twenty twenty one. Four people were dead and seven injured, and he pled guilty to twenty four charges and was sentenced to life without

But I believe in that.

I'm like, yeah, I hope that was like a case that can continue, like has influence. Well, hopefully school shooting stop, but I hope parents are held responsible.

I feel very confident saying that because I know I'm not gonna have a gun in my house. You know, Like I feel very confident being like, yes, punish me if my kid gets a gun that I helped them get and they commit a school shooting that I facilitate anyway, I'm responsible. But I know that will never happen because I'm not a gun person. You know, like you're you if you are pissed about that, then it's like you know that there's a possibility your kids can get their hands on your guns.

Yeah, and in twenty eighteen, so you know the Washington Post, we don't really go it was, but you could go on this article, so I do wonder, are free exciting when what's going on? But in it they write, since nineteen eighty nine, children have committed one hundred and forty five school shootings, and in one hundred and five cases, the weapons source was identified and eighty percent of those

Like according to the whatever study that they were using. So it's weird, like in this case, they don't even go after that fact. They don't even go.

After the fact that they had access, they gave him access to the guns. They're really going after the fact that he created a toxic environment in the episode, you.

Know, pushed him to the brink and write, Yeah, so I'm going to go over a few that could have inspired this, even though the cases, some of them happened after the episode. But anyways, so this is a Santa Fe High school shooting, but it's Santa Fe, Texas. A seventeen year old killed eight students and two teachers in

That is so crazy because it's like the Santa fe one doesn't even like ring a bell to me, and it's probably because because I was like.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The jury found the parents not financially liable or guilty for their child's crime in twenty twenty four, so that's when the trial finally concluded. The verdict was reached after day of deliberations after a three week trial. But this is one of the first attempted to hold parents accountable in civil court for the actions of their childs in a school shooting.

They felt, oh, it wasn't even criminal court, it was civil court.

Huh. They just wow.

They felt it was the fault of the child and with the company. That's so the jury thought it was the fault of the child and then the company that sold him ammunition in the shooting. So they did find this ammunition company guilty, but the jury did award hundreds and millions of dollars in damages to the plaintiffs.

Lucky Gunner.

The ammunition company sold him the ammunition at a time when he was legally barred from purchasing it, and they settled with the plaintiffs before the trial even began. So since this company settled, they don't have to pay a portion of the damages awarded by this jury. But the gunmen also can't pay, like they're poor. Yeah, so it really doesn't matter. I'm really confused about these juries that are like, well, this much, and it's like okay, well

Son in the attack.

So Antonius Pegwortsis and Rosemarie Cosmettos were not accused of the crime, but the trial focused on whether they had been negligent in the storage of more than a dozen firearms in their home. Two of which were used in the shooting, and had failed to notice their son was struggling or to take steps to help him. The gunman, Dimitri, was deemed mentally incompetent to stand trial in criminal court and remains in a state hospital for mental health treatment.

New York Times.

Yeah, I feel like you go in this kind of case, like they go after civil even though that people don't have any money, just as like a deterrent maybe for other parents, Like right, be like like if you do have money and you're letting your kids get access to your guns and they do something with them, like you could lose five million dollars.

Even those people don't have five million dollars. You know.

It's more it seems like a count like you know, just the victims want something, you know. It's how Benson always says, like just standing up in court, right, but they do garnish wages. So that's the other thing, and I probably touched on this later, but one of the other cases was talking about how even if they don't have the money to pay this, they can't make money off of it.

So if they decide to sell their story or.

A book or anything like, the money will go to the victims, or if they somehow win the lottery or something like that. So to have the money could be taken, I guess yeah. But they both testify the parents they did not see changes in his mental state or they would have helped him. Expert witnesses for the defense testified though that he was dealing with schizophrenia, manics, oppression, and

Company could have afforded all that money. I don't know, Okay.

So the next one is the Marysville Pilchuk High School shooting. It's a town north of Seattle in Washington State. The shooter's name is Jalen Freiberg. He was fifteen. He took his father's handgun to school in his backpack and opened fire on a group of classmates that he texted to meet him.

Oh my god. So he shot the.

Five classmates, four fatally, and then turned the gun on himself. Two of the victims were his cousins, Nate Hatch and Andrew Freiberg. And you know, he was not a loner. He was a popular football player. He was elected homecoming prince his freshman year. And it was not random people, It was not enemies. He texted and killed his friends and family.

Do they know why?

A former teacher, Rick Iverson is quoted in The New York Times saying this was an outgoing person that everyone in the school loved. He was from a prominent family on the Tululip Indian Reservation and had a good relationship with his parents and brother, according to another tribal member, But a few days before the shooting, his friend Josh said that his demeanor did change and he wasn't doing work and just had his headphones in and refused to

So that's that case.

I wonder what happened to that kid, Like I wonder what made him like a flip switch. I mean, he might have been having like a mental health event or something, but I wonder if it was something like, yeah, he was assaulted or he was a victim in some kind of way like in the episode.

Because that's to.

Go from like a happy, go lucky kid that everybody in the school thinks is great to killing your friends in like a premeditated attack.

It's pretty wild.

Yeah yeah, okay, Well onto the next. So Marshall County High School shooting. This happened in Kentucky, January twenty eighteen. Gabe Parker, fifteen, open fired in an open area of the school. It was like a large hallway by the cafeteria. Because that's something I read about too, where a lot of these drills and protections in safety rely on the kids being inside the classroom, and so like if it's you know, free periods or launch or whatever, that's not

He was okay.

So the shooter was sentenced to life in prison after being charged in as an adult, and he was given two life sentences plus seventy years, but also eligible for parole in twenty which doesn't make sense to me. I think if you have more than one life sentence, you shouldn't be able to get Yeah. The last one is Parkland, Florida.

Parkland.

Nicholas Cruz murdered seventeen people on Valentine's Day and wounded and traumatized nearly three dozen others. It was twenty eighteen, and he opened fire and just fucking murdered people. And then in February twenty twenty, parents of one of the student victims filed a lawsuit against the US government. Andrew Pollack lost his daughter, Meadow Pollock in the mass shooting. He said that the FBI was tipped off and that the Sheriff's department knew about the red flags running the

And David Hog, who went to that school, is now like a huge gun control advocate and he is running for office. I'm getting a lot of fundraising notes from David Hogg.

Yeah, these kids are all growing up or he's he's the vice chair of the DNC.

Whoa and he's twenty five. Yeah.

And then Kruz pled guilty October twenty and twenty to seventeen counts a first degree murder, and then November twenty twenty two he was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

Damn.

So yeah, I guess, you know, we can't really know exactly what inspired this, but I just kind of focused on the cases where they were trying to find other people responsible, who were you know, and what what happens there. But I think that Michigan case was huge, and even and that other dad for having illegal guns. But like, these parents need to be held accountable.

Yeah yeah, And also the Feds are fucking checking up on tips too, Like ough a lot of these guys are on the internet saying the shit they're gonna do. But at the same time, a lot of people are on the internet talking ship that they're never going to do. And it's hard to check out every fucking lead. I get that, you know, I don't know what the answer.

Is, but but that's their Like that's the whole point, Like, I know, yeah, you guys are you know.

Okay, but this is obviously sad subject matter. But our guest coming up is fantastic, So don't go anywhere really exciting.

Your palette is about to be very cleansed.

Okay, Okay, our guest today, we're so excited. He is an actor that you might know from shows like Fringe or strike Back, but you know him best as the tortured threesome having eighty A Peterstone. Please enjoy our delightful conversation with Philip Winchester.

Oh my gosh, you.

We do get extra excited when it's a cast member. There's so much to talk about. It's like, so this happens to all the characters that when they come to SVU, they're shocked by the you know, the horrific nature of the crimes and that's kind of a trope. How is it as an actor going from regular like Chicago crimes to sex crimes? Yeah, well, you like, what the fuck these storylines are nuts? When you were reading the script, yeah, I think.

You'd get like five or six episodes in and then you got kind of numb to it, right, like, oh, look, it's another horrific story about something that's happened to a kid or this poor woman who's been roofied, and it was just brutal. And then I'd look across at the writers and go, you guys are can I swear on this?

Got?

Yeah?

I'd be like, you guys are really fucked up.

Right, yes, well the fuck up part is there. They're so they're comb in the news for this, so that's just crazy.

Yeah, ripped from the headlines.

Right.

But when you.

Got to work with a few kids in your tenure. We actually had the girl from Zero Tolerance. I don't know if you remember her. It was like the border episode.

Oh yeah, she was great.

She was our youngest guest ever.

Yeah that's fantastic.

Oh that's really cool. Yeah she was she was great. And then this one is that this one was.

Down.

Yeah, yeah, this is the beginning of season twenty. I mean, you come in on season nineteen and one of the bleakest.

Episodes of all that's right, Yeah, maybe our Country.

Is the bleakest filking episode.

And then you pop in then and then we got you all.

But Benson.

Yeah, and it's like, we gotta we got to earn that Druss, We gotta get that relationship back on the table.

It comes in with this episode, which just brutal.

I feel you go back and forth with her your whole time there, like you guys, you guys fight a.

Lot, We do fight a lot.

I think there's some there's some political opinions in there and some political beliefs there. I mean, there were some brutal scenes. There was just some brutal stuff in the courtroom. I remember that happened and and just how how we all felt about it, and none of that was mimicking real life, but just the way things went down with some of the courtroom scenes and the cross examinations were like, man,

Yeah, and so towing.

The line and learning that and being you know, basically asking questions that I think he knew the answer to. But he was checking in with Benson all the time and being like, I'm gonna do this, what do you feel about that?

And it was good.

But yeah, I loved the tension between Benson and Stone. I thought it was I thought it was it made for good TV.

Well, yeah, because you were really like black and white, we have to do this and still I want to break the rules and then we.

Could really do whatever I want. Yeah, I was like, it's both are we not winning?

Oh? I think there's some way to get around that.

Yeah, A lot of contradictions with your character because also like Stern, I would say, but then very flirty. I think you're one of the bigger kind of slutty characters.

So was it this episode with.

Yeah, this would be a rare one description.

We were like, whoa shit, Okay, yeah.

Yeah, you were really like flirty and fun, but then also yeah, very stern.

A lot of Yeah, well I think you definitely, Yeah, you strike me as somebody who's really trying to impress Dad. You know, we had a couple of different characters like that on SVU.

But your first episode you get to work with Sam Waterson like this so amazing. How was that You got a lot You also got to like be in the courtroom by yourself and have a moment courtroom steps you're in court with the barb was really like a very full Yeah.

Alec Schappel, who was.

Our main director that year, and he was our you know, he was our director writer. He worked really closely with Michael Chranucin. He just he understood the show. He understood what we were trying to do with Stone and he yeah, he was. It was such a gift, you know, I look, it's funny. As an actor, I was little. Did I know this was sort of the end of all the energy and time that I would spend on network TV.

I was.

I was on Cinemax for four years, and then I went to NBC for a year, and then it was another show. It was Justice for a year, and then it was So it was kind of like this.

Eight year run.

And I wasn't complacent about it, but you're just like, this is what I do. Now, I'm doing network TV. I'm going to do this. And so some of the not the work, but some of the episodes they blend together. You do so many of them, I mean, and the characters crossover and the the cases crossover, and so you have these moments where you go, wait, this is really important and you can and special and Sam Waterston was one of them.

We get there.

The first day of shooting with Sam was this crazy snowstorm and most of New York shut down, but not a Dick Wolf production, and damn it, everybody showed up to work. It was amazing and it was this howling blizzard and we were shooting in a church because it was the funeral scene, right, And we get in there and Sam and I were talking about the characters and hanging out, and he's just he's such a pro and he's such a legend.

Have you guys talked to him?

No?

Yeah, he you know, he's one of those actors. He's one of those guys. He's he puts so much thought into it, and he's so easy. I remember I said this about acting, and I love this. Ice is a prophet, right, He's just like he'll say things and you're like, wait a second, I actually have a thing in my phone called iced tea knowledge.

Yes, and ice cold facts.

Yes.

He would drop these pearls right, and you'd be like one second here, just like but but Sam, Sam made it look so easy. And that's because he does so much work up to it, and he's done it so often that it's just it's just butter.

Right, it's so easy.

But it's because he's good, and it's because he puts the work in.

I guess. I mean, will you give us an ice cold fact?

Yeah?

Any of your ice knowledge?

Yeah?

Any that you like, remember that's.

My favorite ice cold fact. Okay, ready, this is my favorite ice cold fact.

We're in in the courtroom Run one day and ice Tea goes. He goes, hey, Philip, you want to hear something about the industry. And I was like yeah, He's like, you want to hear the this is the career of an actor?

You ready? I was like yeah, let's go.

But he's like, there's four stages to an actor. Who is Philip Winchester? Right, get me Philip Winchester. Get me a younger Philip Winchester.

Who the fuck is Philip Winchester?

That is that's the career, that's the career path, except that's icy.

Less you. He's so good, right, we were walking in the hallway.

What did he dropped one in the hallway one day, just along the lines of like walking along, he's like, yeah, if you don't have a job, you probably shouldn't sleep in And it was just like one of those like like you gotta put that in, put it in, put it in.

Wow, that really hit me. You have a job, don't sleep.

Probably should Oh, he's just he's amazing. What a guy.

Yeah, were you getting recognized while living in New York? And playing Stone. Did you have any run ins?

Yeah, definitely. Uh.

Probably the most recognition happened in New York while I was doing SVU. Yeah, you know, I mean and and now It's funny. My wife and I joke if we're out because there's always kind of peaks and valleys and what you do will be out and someone will say something like or you'll get like the triple take, and we're like, there must be a rerun on right now.

Yeah, because.

USA is doing a marathon and Peterstone's on, because then you'll get the triple takes. But yeah, definitely in New York there was a lot of that, which is you know, which was which was kind of fun. Yeah, not not not the reason to do it, but it was all and airports. I was There's two types of fans that I get. I get the Strike Back fans and I get the SVU fans, And usually I can tell before

Guys always shoot the rabbit.

I'm sure, yeah, yeah.

Where did this shoot? So we shot it?

That was South Africa.

We were in joe Burg, Cape Town, and then Thailand and then boot and.

It was great.

Whoa, that's so cool.

That was my My first meeting with Dick Wolf was I was sort of in this. I'd been doing this action stuff for so long that you know, I get I get carved up to his place in Monacito. I mean it was it was like something out of the Godfather. Was just this beautiful house.

Yeah.

I get ushered into his office, which is like twenty foot ceilings and leather bound scripts of all the episodes of TV that he's made, like really classy, really cool. And he's got a marble desk with a lamp, four scripts on it and a phone.

That's it.

And there's Dick Wolf behind the desk, and I am so nervous, probably slightly hungover, and and I was like, oh shit, like this is real, Like this what what happens in this room could make or break the rest of your career, right, And he's like, so, Bob Greenblatt over at NBC said, you know, the player over, I've got an idea for a show. He says, you're the guy, and I was like, look, I really appreciate that, but I jump out of helicopters and punch people in the face.

Ha ha ha.

And I was like, any like, totally caught me off guard, right, And I was like, oh, okay, So he kind of thought that was a joke too, that's cool. And I was like, well, I mean, can I read a script? He's like, I don't have one yet, but it'll be good. And I was like, you don't push this too far further, you know, too much further now, And I go okay. He goes, I tell you what, if you don't like it, you can quit, and if you suck, I'll fire you.

And I went, I don't think there's a better deal in Hollywood.

Okay. Incredible. We've actually never gotten any insight on Dick Wolf. I don't think from anyone.

That's yeah, we don't get a lot of Dick Wolf talk because we talked to a lot of guest stars, you know, so they didn't really have much.

Everything you think he would be. He's incredible.

We saw him from because we went to Iced Tea's star on the Walk of Fame.

We are cool.

Well, we were in the pen with the regular people and I was like, Kara, you better get us into the pressed.

And got us in the press like it was a job.

So we had an amazing view. We have like a photo of like baby Chanel.

Like jumping into arms. We really were in the thing of it.

But that was the That was I think the only time I saw Dick Wolf but a marble desk I'm obsessed with.

Yeah, no, he is the real deal.

Staff of scripts just like that's you know, just like this man who has given his life to television.

But I bet more people were desperate than you or I wonder if people or a lot of people are like I.

Don't know, yeah, I don't know.

I really appreciated his sort of like, look, I'm.

What do you want, like like the script will be good?

And he kind of he kind of doubled down on that, not with me personally, but he walked onto set on Justice, which in hindsight's a little sad because the show didn't go that far.

But I don't think it was our fault. You know.

He's like he walked in right down the middle of where the gallery sits and then walked up to the prosecuting table and he's walked in. He's like, all right, everybody, the sets are built, the scripts are good, cameras are here.

Don't fuck it up.

Yeah, And that was it was like, okay, and you know what, he's not wrong.

Don't fuck it up.

Yeah.

I was like, let's go right, let's push the button.

Fuck it up. Who knew our two pass? Yeah, don't fuck it up? Wait? Did you meet Snoop Talk?

I wasn't on the No.

I wasn't in that episode.

Everyone asked that, like of all the guest roles, and that was a that was a t of course.

That was a nice thing.

I think they said we would love Snoop Dogg, and I think I said, I'll call him.

I mean, how cool is that? Right?

I remember like when your character was on, when I was watching the show, when you were first on like seven or eight years ago, I was like, Oh, this is what's bringing me into this guy is he's got this like family thing going on, you know, like your relationship with your dad, but also the sister thing, that's right, which honestly kicks off your slutty phase.

I feel.

Stones slutty phase.

Yeah, Stone goes real slutty after his sister is killed by a.

Partelartle, the cartel that's rights.

Some of it was.

It was just brutal, right, there was we read that script and we were like wa, whoa. And then the hardest part about missing the action stuff was then doing those episodes. Remember like that there was that episode, There was the episode in the bar where I was accused of Oh yeah, I was accused of raping someone in college and it wasn't true. And the guy's the gal's husband comes to the bar and it's like there was

And this was like I.

Remember, had so many so many family members calling and so many like fans being like this is where Stonebridge kicks his ass. Right, He's not stone Bridge, He's Peterstone. But yeah, the sister stuff really kicked off. It really broke down Stone, you know, it was that was the beginning of the end of Stone right, and going into those last episodes kind of really you know it was it was just, you know, I had a two year

Was a really great style.

Yeah, totally like the he was working deals here making it happen, and it was, but it was totally breaking the law, which is not Stone.

He would like he can bend the rules, but he wouldn't break them.

And the first script that came out was he he had done similar things, but instead of having that discussion right outside the front of the courthouse, he got shot on the front steps of the courthouse. And we read it in the table read and we were like, oh snap. And there was definitely a bit of like fuck, you know, that's I can't ever do Peter Stone again.

But what great television, right. I was like, man, let's let's go.

And I remember Mariska came out in the hallway afterwards, and she was like, Philip, you can't die.

And I was like, I don't know.

I think as much as I would love to keep playing this character or have the opportunity down the road that is wild TV, especially for network TV, I was like, I think we could. It would be amazing if we could pull it off. And it sat with her for a while, and it sat with me for a while,

So but I think we ended in a good place.

Well, let me ask you this, because we haven't talked to We've talked to a lot of cast members, but some of them like kind of came on in the earlier years and like you came on season nineteen twenty to be We talked to so many guest stars and they always say, oh, it's a well oiled machine. They welcome us in and this and that. But you're coming in not just to be there for a week or two. You're going to be there for like the long haul.

I think probably a little bit of both.

I think you have to, like anything, when you've been around that long, you really wanted like it's performance, right, You're like, can you hang with us? And I think there was a little bit of proving ourselves in the first few episodes. And also I was coming over with a showrunner that I had worked with for a year and oh, which is nice with Michael Trannucin, right, And so there was a little bit of like who are these guys? You know a little bit who are these

If she wasn't in New York, I was on a plane. Like this. It was really it was a real gift.

Because on Justice it was you know, working ninety hours a week and not you know, sleeping, eating with your script in your hand. And then I had Peterstone on SVU and so I had time and if I wasn't in New York, I was on a If I wasn't shooting, I was getting on a plane and going to see my daughter and my wife. Even if it was overnight. I'd land in the afternoon in Montana, kiss my family, hang out, and get on a flight the early next

Well are their direct flights.

There was a United flight, There's a United flight in the winter.

Because of ski season. But then as soon as spring comes around in mud seasons here, I had to go through Chicago or Salt Lake City or something like that, and that makes it a whole day of traveling, which look champagne problems, right, But I was spent doing a lot of sky time for sure.

And then how was the last day? Was there a party? Was there a wrap or their gifts?

Was last day? Gosh, there's so much emotion wrapped up in it. I remember being pretty cut up about it. You know it's coming. I actually found out I wasn't going to be going back probably two or three episodes before the end, right, So you're kind of doing these episodes not with a chip on your shoulder, but a little bit like darn it, like could I have done something different?

Is it my fault?

And sometimes it's just like your contract didn't get reapped right or what or that that's the end of that character for that reason. And yeah, there was lovely you know, Marisca said some lovely things in front of the crew, and I was able to talk to the crew and say thanks for everything, and you know, I think we I don't know what.

My last scene was.

I think it was in the courtroom and I think actually it was in the courtroom. And so that was a nice way to wrap it up because it felt like it had gone full circle from Chicago Justice all the way back to all the way back to Law and Order SPU and then and because the courtroom is big, we had extras in there, we had the whole crew in there, and we were able to say thank you and goodbye.

And it's always a weird thing.

You know, that's your family, for lack of a better term, I mean, you're with them so many hours a day, so many days a week, that all of a sudden, you're it's always it's always for me, it's like, you know, being a guy. It's like a month later, you know, and I'm sitting in my office and I'm like.

I'm sad.

Wait a second, I really love that show. But yeah, just such a gift and wonderful, wonderful people.

Really, do you want to talk about Ransom Canyon?

Sure? Sure, yeah? You are you guys up to date on Ransom Can.

How could you be when there's how many thousands of episodes of SVU to work?

Oh my god, and we have to see them all seventeen times or.

We won't have to see them all. Uh yeah, Ransom.

Look, we shot Rant Canyon down in Albuquerque, New Mexico. It's a adaptation of a of several novels. There's a whole bunch of them. It's good fun. It's sort of a I guess you, I would call it a Yellowstone meets Friday Night Lights. It's lovely so that we got to make a Callrie Josh Dumel. It's it's doing great.

It was.

Last time I checked, it was number one or number two on Netflix. Hell yeah, in the in the United States, and I think number one or number two globally too, which is great. It hit a nerve, which is fantastic. My wife and I sat down over the weekend and watched it and it.

Was really funny. It was like yellow more romance a.

Lot more romance. Okay, yeah, very much like the turmoil of like the the lovers who own ranches trying to fight over the one gal who owns a lavender farm. And then I play I play the Sheriff of Ransom Canyon and my daughter's in love with the bad boy and I don't like that, and they're trying to figure that out. And then there's you know, a tornado comes through town.

It's very it's just it's popcorn, but it's good popcorn. Right, It's like it's it's soapy, but great, Sophie.

There's wonderful music, long pauses on scenes, you know, the camera will hold on a scene, beautiful cinematography.

That is gorgeous down there.

It's just gorgeous television.

Yeah, so it's just weird, like it just premiered this month in April.

Yeah, we kind of still getting around making the rounds.

Yeah, it's making the rounds and doing and it's doing great so far.

So we're hey, you'll probably get another season of that, and you'll be back in Albuquerque.

I think we I'm hoping we're back in Albuquerque. Yeah, that would be great. Thank you so much, Thank you guys.

Yeah, it was a dream. I feel like we could talk to you for another three hours. Thank you so much for.

Remembering everything and all the details and all the fun and some ice cool facts like oh.

Ice cold facts. He's the man. No, it's you guys. You guys. It's like when you mentioned stuff, it's like, oh, yeah, that's right. It was a lot of fun. We're on it and really appreciate it.

Wow, what again, look at us if we're not the premiere podcast.

I don't know, I don't know.

Can you image guests like this? This is yeah wild Hee's he was one a chatter good story and he also like took that job, like like he loved that job as much as we love watching the show.

Yeah, and that's what's really good.

You know. It's like fun watching someone that like remembers all these moments. And also like we've never gotten Dick Wolf's scoop. Yeah, like I want to hear about Dick Wolf's desk, like yeah, yeah, he was so nice, so cute. He was coming to us from a podcast studio. Talk about taking it seriously well, Kara said, as like they were closing and we were all logging off, she heard someone go that was fun, so I don't know if it was Philip or who is helping record, but that feels.

To have fun. I hope you had fun.

Can you imagine if we heard something else? Yeah, shrieking bitches, you know?

Yeah?

Yeah, But this episode, I mean, it's like, I don't know, we gotta do a post mortem. But do you really want to get us started about toxic masculinity and how you're fucking up all the boys of this of this fucking uh world.

I don't know, Like, it's just so horrible that we could live, Like, I don't know, because I want to do I was thinking about, like I'm so against chat GBT and AI so against it, but then it's also like, but it could do all these lovely things. I just don't believe in humanity. Yeah, I just think evil.

A can to be trusted with a toy like that. We can't be trusted with that tool.

I would love AI, but it's like, no, Chat GIBC sucks.

It's bad.

It's evil because we're evil as a as a numbers game, like why don't you let your boy not have to murder a rabbit?

Yes, off this chain reaction of like manliness being equated to violence.

And taking lives and all this stuff. It's like nothing.

If my kids never shoot a gun in their lives, I'll be so proud, so proud. My god, Way do you watch fashion for to review? I know I know about it, but I don't watch it religiously.

Oh my god. So the lasts was West.

Yeah, Tudor boot Raven's outfit was awesome for the Western. Weard like it was this corset but on her titties were two guns.

And I'm like, that's what you do with guns.

Yeah, you make them into a corset and I'll have some fun. Yes, yeah, girls, she looked beautiful. I'm like obsessed with them. They're true truly two of the most beautiful, Like they're gorge faces I've ever seen in my life.

Icons and so funny. I love them and I think they're so funny.

And knowledgeable, like the way they like talk about the outfits and the references and all of it.

They've been there since the beginning. I mean, they're they're.

They're they're I hate, I don't want to say like elders, but they're like because they're not old, but.

They're like they would call themselves elder. They're someone's thirty two, Like Sasha Colby's what thirty five?

I know, and they're like, oh, to just know that Sasha's here, She's such a legend, so she's thirty five.

Drag Race is so funny. But I and they burned early. I just wish.

People wanted their you know, That's what I always preacher at that where it's like the conditional and unconditional love and just yeah. Also, if you haven't watched night Owl yet, give it a fucking watch.

Yeah, are you doing it? Is this uh thing of like just let people be.

I know, I just really try to teach my kids kindness above anything. I'm like, I know, condition to be kids. Yeah, I was like, I know there's gonna be kids that you don't like. I know, you don't have to like everybody. There's gonna be people you don't get along with. Just don't be mean to people, don't be unkind. You know, there's ways you can like just be kind to people.

And then they use all this in the bad schools to then promote homeschooling, which then like causes more issues and less funding for school. It's like it's all connected, it's all the fabric of it all. But if only you can you know, your kids aren't gonna be you, they get to be themselves.

And like, I don't know, and don't have guns just lying around, don't rape your kid.

But I'm glad with the real cases, Like I hope they start arresting and charging and convicting parents.

Yeah, if your guns are.

Left unattended, if you're teach indoctrinating your children with bullshit, you should you should be on trial.

Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, their minds, their frontal lobes are not fully formed, and you this is not the time to be shoving gun propaganda inside of them.

Uh. But also, but great acting, great episode, great guest and as always, I mean, it's also not just about it's also not just about the guns.

I mean, I don't know why that man thought he had.

To also sexually assault his child to teach him a lessons. That's the worst part of this episode.

Like that's obviously the worst part, but it also is like, what, like, I don't know that is so it's awful, but listen.

Well, let's move on to what would Sister Peg Do? This week?

For What Sister Peg Do, which is our weekly segment where we direct you to a book, a blog post, an organization, a doc something to give you more information about what we talked about in today's episode, I wanted to port you to an article called how to Address Toxic Masculinity with Boys on a website that is for a nonprofit called next Gen Men and not to be confused with Next Gen NYC, which is a reality.

Show on Bravo.

This week, how do we get a reward for not mentioning Bravo once this whole episode?

Actually, yeah, that we need to medal we do.

But my god, after my show in Philly, I was like talking to this group of people for a really long time after the show, and when I went back to all the other comics, some people that worked at the club, They're like, oh, are those your friends? I go truly strangers from the show. They just brought up Summerhouse. Yeah, they brought up Summerhouse. And that's all that I need it, that's all you need? That is Oh my god. Wait, page's fucking loungewear line. I gotta get online.

It's live.

Okay, So now you're not getting the metal anymore because we were bringing it up.

We're talking about it. Listen.

I think this is a really important topic. This the toxic masculinity and boys. There's all this shit on the internet that kids have access to, Andrew taate like all this shit that they're indoctrinating boys telling them, and this is outside of parents' control sometimes, Like if you don't know what your kids are watching on YouTube, then you know they're getting this shit from their friends, all this stuff about how to be a you know whatever, a man.

And the article does a good job of representing.

The boy's point of view and points out that boys actually want to know how to be masculine without being taught. So if you're interested, you can read the article over at next Gen Men dotca and that will be posted in our show notes and in our stories the day that this episode comes out and All of our old WWSPD stories are saved in our highlight on our Instagram page called WWSPD and our Instagram's That's messed Up pod.

Thank you, thanks for all that. I'm also sorry that I plugged my special while we were talking about school shooting and rape. It's okay, but I would like you all to watch we jump around.

We jump around.

Also, the Daphnie line is sold out and is obviously not sized inclusive, but even if it wasn't sold out, I would sadly not be able to fit.

Where are you? And it's just funny. That's so funny like.

That we thought page would have a size inclusive line.

I know, but also like a man that being like these bathing suits are for big titties and it's like, okay, well they.

Only go up to a large so love you bummer.

Yeah, okay, So next week we'll be doing Nocturn from season one, episode twenty one. Join us please and everyone, stay safe, stay motivated, stay.

Stay alert, stay alert. See you next week.

Enjoy your summer. Bye, never change. That's messed up as an exactly right production.

If you have compliments you'd like to give us or episodes you'd like us to cover. Shoot us an email it That's Messed uppod at gmail dot com. Listen to That's Messed Up on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever.

You get your podcasts.

Follow the podcast on Instagram at That's Messed Up Pod, and follow us personally at Kara Clank and at glitter Cheese.

As always, please see our show notes for sources and more information.

Thank you so.

Much to our senior produce Sir Casey O'Brien and our associate producer Christina Chamberlain.

And to our mixer John Bradley and our guest booker Patrick Cottner, and to Henry Kaperski for our theme song, and Carly Geen Andrews for our artwork. Thank you to our executive producers Georgia Hardstart, Karen Kilgarriff, Daniel Kramer, and everybody at Exactly Right Media.

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